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Episode 50 - Anne Tornette, VP Engineering at The Quality Group
32 Plays23 days ago
In this episode, Sade is joined by Anne, VP of Engineering at The Quality Group, the powerhouse behind Germany’s leading supplement brands.
Together, they explore:
- Anne’s journey as a woman in tech leadership and the challenges she’s navigated along the way
- How language and communication styles shape the way women are perceived as leaders
- Strategies to empower women to use language that asserts authority while staying authentic
- Practical steps organisations can take to not only hire women in tech but also support their growth into leadership roles
- Anne’s advice for aspiring female leaders looking to thrive in the tech industry
Recommended
Transcript
Anne's Journey in Tech & Leadership
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Women Talk Tech. Today I'm joined by Anne, VP of Engineering at The Quality Group. Now, Anne has built an incredible career in tech and leadership. And in this episode, we dig into what drew her into leadership in the first place, the challenges she's faced along the way, and of course, the lessons she's learned.
00:00:34
Speaker
We talk about the language and communication and how women are perceived as leaders and what organizations can do to truly support their growth. If you're a woman in tech aspiring to step into leadership or just curious about the realities of leading in engineering, this episode is packed with insights and advice you won't want to miss.
00:00:50
Speaker
Let's get into it. Awesome. So thanks, Anne, for joining me again. Yeah, really excited for the conversation. Yeah, tell me a bit more about yourself. Yeah, sure Thanks also for inviting me. so yeah, I'm Anne. I'm currently the head of engineering and the quality group.
00:01:07
Speaker
I spent the last several years of building and leading engineering teams in fast pacing environments, often navigated challenges, scales and uncertainties.
00:01:18
Speaker
I'm passionate about building inclusive cultures, helping others to grow into leadership. And outside of my work, I live in Berlin with my little dachshund Fina, I think who firmly believes that she is the boss
Natural Leadership & Skills
00:01:32
Speaker
of us. And yeah I'm into art, spending my time in nature.
00:01:37
Speaker
And um I also believe like that a joke can help in almost every situation. Yeah, wow, I love that. I love that. And yeah, really excited to kind of dive into today's topic, because I think the idea of kind of women in leadership, women in tech leadership is something which we, yeah, really excited to kind of dive a bit deep into it. So yeah, let's, you know, tell me a bit more about your kind of leadership journey and your experience so far. And I guess like what made you, other than like naturally progressing into a leadership role, what made you really kind of dive into the the the kind of leadership path?
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think like, honestly, like leadership found me. So I was always very often the person who saw, I would say like the bigger picture or or ask questions. Some or the majority of the room wasn't asking.
00:02:26
Speaker
so over the time I realized that um yeah, engaging with others um brings me more joy than the technical work.
00:02:37
Speaker
um So I wanted to shape how we work or just a build something that lasts and have like a bigger impact. So I think like it inspired me how my bosses interacted with me to also go in this direction um to yeah, to remove obstacles, but also spark moments and that not every day is like the same.
00:03:00
Speaker
um There are always usually some surprises hidden and coming around the corner.
Challenges in Leadership
00:03:06
Speaker
So um yeah, somehow I fall into that. That was never the plan, but it brings me a lot of joy.
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess you you kind of had the the natural kind of skill set to kind of go into And I'm sure maybe those around you saw that and you kind of fell into it. But I guess you, I'm sure you possess those skills that just make you a good leader, I'm sure.
00:03:28
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think like it's ah one of my ah bosses told this to me, like what one of my superpowers is like being very organized. And I wasn't, I mean, that for me, this was so normal because this is how my brain functions. as I'm the person who writes down packing lists if I'm going on um traveling, you know, like this is how I structure my whole work and also my private life. But this came in very handy and specifically yeah In cases like, for example, when you take over a project that you yeah and nail it a bit down or break it down into milestones or like how how are you organizing it and how you, don't know, like involve with others. So for me, this i wasn't aware of that, that this is something what's ah bringing...
00:04:12
Speaker
um something to the plate because this is for me super super normal but at the end of the day it's true this is like very good um skill sets of elite uh of leadership and then communication um i think it's also easy for me to get in contact with people and uh tell them about i don't know like what i'm doing today but also what's about the project and so on and like getting more and more involved in these kind of activities um gets you more comfortable and um
00:04:44
Speaker
Yeah. Good use to that. Yeah. And I guess you're right because, you know, you either are, I don't want say you either are you aren't, but you've either got these kind of natural skills, you're organized, you communicate well, or, you know, you have to learn these skills. And and I'm not saying you can't and, you know, you either have to have them or you don't and or you won't be a leader, but it is it is just kind of a natural gift to have to possess those skills um well.
Communication Strategies
00:05:06
Speaker
Yes, that's true. I mean, like, at the end of the day, I'm, as I mentioned the beginning, I'm a dog owner. So um I think, like, I also learned a lot about, like, dog, like, having a dog, leading a dog with body language and also and being...
00:05:21
Speaker
strict to certain topics, somehow this is also influenced also my my work and as a lead with people. Not that I'm treating not people like dogs, but ah in terms of like, um I reward more if I'm seeing something, what ah what we want to, you know, like see in a role attitude or someone has success. I'm celebrating this more. I would, I celebrate that also this with my dog, and especially in the beginning. You know, like they learn to I don't know, like stay on their place and pee outside and this kind of stuff. And instead of um always criticizing and nagging, know, like if something is not going well, I use this technique from the dog school to kind of like also address this in leadership. And as you said, like everything can be learned, but it's it's easier if this is in your natural skill set because you act like this ah rather than if you have to
00:06:16
Speaker
yeah get used and train all these kinds of activities. Totally, totally. And I guess, you know, leading a dog and leading people, there are some fair challenges, right? um What are maybe some of the common challenges or kind of challenges you face in your career? and And how have you overcome this? Because yeah, I can imagine leading a dog, leading people, very different, but equally can be as challenging, um especially in tech.
00:06:37
Speaker
How have you found that? Yeah, I think like the most common challenge is like leading in crisis. So whether, um yeah, this means scaling down, reorganizing the whole team structure um or making cuts on the technology stack and removing some parts is I think like, or was in the past always a topic.
00:06:59
Speaker
um or also my my current job ah i joined a company who was planning to go into hyper growth and then a week later we had to downsize so it's like surprise welcome to leadership everything can happen um So and this is, I would say, like, the from the topic themselves, are very common challenges. But another one is, for example, and balancing empathy with accountability, being supporters while driving um performance.
00:07:31
Speaker
So I had to learn, like, that, and specifically for... communication being super super clear and expectation management that this is at the end of like day for these specific challenges the superpower I want to um to have but also I constantly want to train and so I learned to over communicate this is better than under communication I even repeat myself very often I know sometimes people are like a bit annoyed by that but very often it's surprised surprised me that even we discussed this a couple of times that
00:08:05
Speaker
This is still sometimes a new topic for people and for this kind of crisis situation, it's good to over communicate and repeating what's happening to give like usually safetiness or the clarity um or answer also, obviously, then sometimes questions which maybe come up like not in the first moment, but later when you thought about it.
Women in Leadership
00:08:26
Speaker
Yeah, totally. I mean, communication, I think, is is a skill you have to have in everyday life, I think, especially as a leader, because I think you are in in situations in crisis, right? You are the person which people are looking to for information, for security, for stability.
00:08:41
Speaker
And, you know, if you I find sometimes when you don't communicate as much, it leaves so much room for people to assume. And mostly we all assume the worst, especially in crisis. Right. You always think what's the worst that could happen here. So the more we communicate, the more stability or at least some sort of reassurance we can give to our staff or to to kind of people that we're working with.
00:09:02
Speaker
Exactly. And I like also to play around with the formats. So I mean, like, obviously, you're speaking to a bigger crowd, you cannot have, like, with all of them, a coffee chat and repeat yourself. Also, then, for yourself, this becomes at one point, like, ah you remove information because, you you know, like, it's so often in your head and in so many conversations that at one point, like, this isn't so essential anymore for you.
00:09:25
Speaker
um So adjusting, you know, like, the different kind of formats where, you may be announcing some news to the bigger crowd, but then breaking it down either with the support of other team leads who can repeat it or asking or and answering some questions or, and this is what is for me super important, is like offering coffee slots. So regardless if um I'm the direct or maybe just overseeing the whole department.
00:09:50
Speaker
I have always in my calendar like coffee slots where people can book themselves in where we have those conversations either on specific topics I would like to discuss or follow up or just to connect and maybe and they're having a joke or and laugh together and just really drinking a coffee together but um this belongs for me also to communication because I'm not just here to give like usually bad news or like changes to the crowd I'm also here to understand how can ah what's what's in their mind or like what's bothering them or what information is so clear for us that we didn't communicate it or wrote it somewhere down, but it's essential ah for people to get the big picture
00:10:34
Speaker
Totally. And I think what you said there, you're not just there to kind of speak in crisis, you're there to kind of speak in all everyday situations. It kind of reminds me as a child, right? um my My dad was always the one where if we were ever in trouble, and you know, it was going to be dad that was going to deliver the news to us. So whenever we saw him, we was like, Oh, what have we done now?
00:10:53
Speaker
i leader You don't want to be that person whereby anytime people come across you, they assume that it's going to be bad news. And that also comes with how you communicate, the language you use, and and even just, I'm sure, especially as a woman in in a leadership role, you are, you can sometimes be communicating with male counterparts and trying to kind of get that across.
00:11:13
Speaker
How have you found the language you use and the communication style you have to kind of use or play the game almost, um especially in a leader, as as a leader and in a tech community?
00:11:26
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, it's it's I think like it's huge. not like we are as Especially as women, I always expect it to be like warm, but not too soft. like assess But not too bossy.
00:11:39
Speaker
um so So there are so many and don't know like obstacles to and hoops to jump through. um i think it's ah it's very difficult, to be honest. um But...
00:11:53
Speaker
what i try to do is i mean i'm a i'm personally like a person who is always tries to connect uh through humor um um i like to share my uh my failures this is easier for me if i feel like i'm in a safe space uh yeah but then if i have to kind of prove myself to this round so um It always depends, right, on on this in the situation. But, like, um especially if I'm in the seat of creating this atmosphere, I'm trying to spend more efforts on creating this atmosphere.
00:12:29
Speaker
hey let's talk about, like, what everyone was the the failure of last day of last week. now like um Or, like, hey, this is something. i um very often happens that I send out invites, meetings, and then I forget it.
00:12:43
Speaker
to invite the other person so I'm booking a room I'm booking everything ensuring that this person also has time and happened to me ah very often that and I'm sitting there and like yeah I didn't inform the person because I simply forgot this and this usually creates a laughter or like it's it's creating this air situation that um regardless of what positions you are powering, like ah we all make little mistakes through the day.
00:13:10
Speaker
And I'm trying to give him this kind of taste in and these kind of meetings or collaboration. But I also need to admit, like if I don't know the crowd and usually I'm sitting usually with a lot of males in the room, then I'm also in the beginning a bit...
00:13:26
Speaker
a a bit more silent, try to read the room and understand a bit like what's the dynamic here before, before I'm pure in, I would say. I guess you're right, because you have to know who you're speaking to before you start to communicate, because you're your kind of common communication style may not be perceived or received well in the room, and you have to be able to adapt.
00:13:47
Speaker
Do you find that as ah as a woman, you you have had to do that more than maybe your male counterparts? I mean, had been in the past in lot of situations where was either my idea, know, like was wasn't here. And then another male repeated it. And it was like, oh, that's super cool. Let's do it. I'm like, wait a minute. I just said this. right this is kind of really frustrating or what happened to me also a lot that uh people call me emotional uh which maybe know like sometimes i'm emotional that's true but like i don't like to hear this all the time only because my voice is higher know like or i'm speaking or it was a bit more more passion about something um so try to
00:14:35
Speaker
to mix this up with humor and sometimes you know like making a sarcastical joke in this moment to to break break this situation up for me or um it also helps in the past if um if i created some alliance so like having some people have my back or like speak up in this moment also makes it uh easier or what also and if this is happening with specific people all the time, which also happened with me, and I talked to them and are like in a private ah discussion and and reminded them, hey, this is super difficult. you know like When you call me out, always emotional, what what actually triggered you to get to to notice that I'm emotional? like and Can you walk me through that? So I try to understand it a bit, but also making clear that this
00:15:27
Speaker
isn't the right wording there to use. Yeah. And of course, all of these things that you've mentioned feels like you've learned these kind of in your own experiences. And I feel like, you know, you you you do something, you get a constructive piece of criticism, you learn from that, and you kind of don't do it again.
00:15:45
Speaker
um so we're, of course, in ah quite a quite privileged position where we can learn as we go. However, there are so many other women who are maybe stepping into leadership who are maybe unaware of all these aspects that come in to being ah a female leader.
00:15:57
Speaker
How do you think we can then teach and empower women to be used the right language or to use the right body language or even to to behave in a way without compromising our actual kind of superpowers as women? Because I do think as women, we have so many superpowers that make us great leaders.
00:16:14
Speaker
But how do we then learn the ways to communicate without losing what's actually our strengths? Yeah. To be honest, like, I find this question um difficult.
00:16:28
Speaker
i I know what in which direction you want to go and also I would i love to have some answers already there. But then on the other hand, like i always what bothers me is like, why do we as women need to learn to do something differently so that others perceive us as equal or as strong? So I would rather focus on putting the effort to educate more to ah to correct if I'm seeing this ah situation, maybe also happen to another ah female lead, to then advocate and say, like, hey, you know what? that's That's actually not cool on this moment. We shouldn't do this.
00:17:04
Speaker
um But what happened, regardless, now, like, if I ah ah went to this by myself, but what worked out for me, always really, really good, is, like, creating my own network.
00:17:15
Speaker
So and being in touch with other female leads to understand if they had the same experience, because like it's ah just sharing it and knowing that you are not alone is sometimes giving already the ease. Ah, okay, this is nothing with me personal. Like this is something, you know, like what, what unfortunately is still the situation between female and male leads.
00:17:39
Speaker
um I also invest always, if I have coached budget coaching budget, I always using it for female needs because naturally I don't have so many in in my environment or like it's it's very often. or So far I only had always male bosses, which is not a bad thing, but I try to balance that out with like female coaches so that then I have another perspective. I also can connect to their experience or getting here and there some tips in terms of like,
00:18:07
Speaker
how ah how it could handle it in specific situations better but i don't want that you know like we're getting in this direction that uh that female leads need to to communicate you know like in a different way i think we should push forward it's like no like let's be we can we should be be ourselves in terms of like um maybe giving a bit more reasons or like trying to argue with giving more reasons because we feel like it's necessary to putting these kinds of stuff also to the answer rather than um yeah being super strict and commune on the communication and uh and i don't know like talk a bit like with a deeper voice or something like that
00:18:50
Speaker
Honestly, I couldn't agree more. I think we shouldn't have to change how we communicate or change who we are to be able to be heard. um I just find that I'm i'm the same. when Even when I'm communicating with like male friends, um've I've now had to maybe speak with a bit more logic and not as emotional, just speak with facts, physical or tangible. Because I find sometimes, with even with male friends, when I say, I feel this, it comes across like it's all emotional, when really the emotions I have could be based on facts that have happened.
00:19:20
Speaker
But just purely based on how we communicate, it seems that we're not yet heard unless it's quite factual, quite logical. And even in board meetings, right? You know, sales, money, but that's where, okay, oh, the men are listening now. and Aside from that, sometimes I find that we're not heard unless we speak the language of men, so to speak.
00:19:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, true. I mean, you have a point there. So knowing your crowd and knowing what kind of patterns you can push, So that you get more here. That's always good to know. So now like if yeah I'm entering like a conversation with, I don't know, like the data team, I know that I bring more facts in terms of like, yeah you know, because this is what they do ah for a living and where they really look all day at like, and I can, I mean, I can drive certain decisions by that faster rather than have a gut feeling that some customers have a problem here.
00:20:09
Speaker
So and um and that's right. But ah yeah. Yeah, yeah. And of course, all of what you mentioned is is kind of great um tips for those for like fart for myself.
Supporting Women in Tech
00:20:22
Speaker
However, even if I kind of do all my best and com communicate in the right way, there's still aspects of a company that have to support be able to support me in my journey as well. So maybe in your own experience, and and what you've also been doing as well, what are some of the practical things which, you know, companies can be doing to not just hire more women, but also truly support them in their leadership journey? Because I think we can do our best and I can do all the research and I can read all these great books, but you know, the company has to do a bit more as well. Like what do you think companies could be doing?
00:20:51
Speaker
Yeah. I think the first step is like to stop telling women how to, you know, like tone down or stop smiling or smiling even more. i mean, there's so many expectations. So I think like stopping with that is the first step.
00:21:07
Speaker
And then the second one would be to help each other to find their voice and So this could be through ah coaching sessions, but it could be also to foster a bit more that females, especially in tech, come more often together. So I'm offering this, for example, within my engineering teams that, especially in female women, i'm ah and I'm not saying hunting, but I'm offering this even more than I would already to to invite them. Hey, let's come together. let's ah Let's talk about certain topics where you feel like,
00:21:42
Speaker
this is unfair or, you know, like a coaching session or practice in a safe space could even help. um But on the other hand, I'm also, because I have also a lot of high majority of male leads in my team, I try to educate them as well and ah making sure that they watch out for that. If they have females in their team and maybe they ah and don't feel...
00:22:07
Speaker
so extroverted to always give their opinion to certain ah topics so that they ensure that they check in also there or and specifically call them out and say, do you have do you want to do i have another opinion? Do you want to share it?
00:22:22
Speaker
So they always can say, like no, I don't want because everything was... ah ah had been said was already or what I'm thinking was already shared but sometimes and very often this is the case and this happened also with me in my past or when I'm looking back like I had already the answer in my head but I was too shy to ah to tell it to everyone but help me if someone directly said like Anne what do you think about it and then damn it I was already called out so now I can already ah share what I'm thinking and very often it was like oh yeah we haven't thought about that that's a good perspective and then also that know like giving there and this is what I meant as a dog or know like rewarding that and
00:23:00
Speaker
And shaping a bit like this.
Stepping Out of Comfort Zones
00:23:02
Speaker
Yeah, it was really good and very, very smart that we yield your opinion. So like rewarding this and ah moment makes it easier than for women or also males sometimes struggle with that or ah to to share their opinion. So yeah.
00:23:16
Speaker
um This is what is always super important with me. If I'm coaching my leads, if I'm um training them to become better ah team leads, that we also take time to focus on that, being inclusive, watching out that we are not least leaving anyone out of discussion rounds or having certain behavior mind.
00:23:40
Speaker
Totally, totally. I think that really helps because I've been in so many situations like that as well, right, where, you know, the floor's been given, you know, you can ask questions, you can kind of say your points and you kind of sit there in silence and then your counterpart says exact same thing which you were thinking, but then they're kind of rewarded for for the kind of credit and um what they said. And when really, it does just take a bit more calling out. As as uncomfortable as it may be, um you do have to kind of step out of a comfort zone to be heard, right?
00:24:06
Speaker
Yes. And I mean, i still have one task to do from my last coaching session, which, you know, like I'm always procrastinating because it's so so much out of my comfort zone. But I got the tip that I should ah ah try out ah theater, you know, like and go into this improv classes, which great.
00:24:27
Speaker
so much out of my comfort zone that i'm always like yeah yeah i wonder how would do it but you know like let's you know not not now i don't have the time for that uh but um the biggest learning or the biggest success always at least for me personally was after stepping out uh out of comfort zone activities and um i mean not everyone has now to go to a pro and tl at theater um shows or like attending there and and do it.
00:24:56
Speaker
But um stepping out and playing with that and then looking what does it make with you and it wasn't actually that bad as we of we always fear. I think like this is the first step like for everything in life.
00:25:10
Speaker
Yeah, totally, totally. And what's the one piece of advice you'd maybe give to women who are starting out in tech, who aspire to move into leadership roles, or who are currently in a tech role looking to break into leadership?
00:25:22
Speaker
What's the one piece of advice you wish someone would have given to you um in in this kind of next step in their journey? Yeah, I think like don't wait to be ready.
00:25:34
Speaker
spoiler alert, nobody feels ever ready. um and confident people always picking it better, in my opinion.
Advice for Aspiring Women Leaders
00:25:43
Speaker
So um yeah, just do it. Just try it out. Get rid of this. It needs to be first perfect moment. um and um just step up, influence, support each other and drive changes, ask questions, ah volunteer for messy and ambitious projects nobody wants, surround yourself with female leads and sometimes just a good talk about it with other mentors like helps a lot and um for the moments where I feel like, oh, this didn't work out at all, I always look at my... er
00:26:19
Speaker
I have a little mirror board where I always copy paste, like if I get like shout outs or good vibes from people or a specific accomplishments. And these are the moments when you feel like nothing is working out. I'm going in the wrong direction. Then take a step back, look at your...
00:26:38
Speaker
journey what you already accomplished, what other people see in yourself and just go back then and give it another try. Because at the end of the day, what is the worst that can happen? Luckily, we are all not in heart surgery or like to stop a bomb or something like that. So then the worst that can happen is you fail and you learn out of it and you talk or with others or you ask for help.
00:27:02
Speaker
And um I think like this is the most important stuff. So I'm a very over thinker. Like in the past, I was always like, I'm not ready for this. What if? And so on. um But I had sometimes some leads who pushed me into this situation, who told me, I believe and you can do it. And I could do it at the end of the day.
00:27:20
Speaker
um and even if I had like some struggles, then it helped me a lot to look at like ah my little this is what you already achieved board. Yeah. That's such a good idea as well. And and not even just, um was it's great for your self-confidence, but it's also great when it comes to maybe putting yourself forward for promotions or for next roles, because you've actually got a catalog of good feedback with things you've done, with achievements you've you've achieved. and and yeah, it just, I think personally, it would it makes you stand out in the crowd because you've actually got evidence of why you're so great.
00:27:51
Speaker
Sometimes I think As women, we tend to not want to shout out too much about it. So having that mirror board or putting it in a folder on your laptop, just having that in place so that you can look back at it yourself, but also use it for future promotions.
00:28:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's quite handy. I'm always suggesting this for all my leads to do it. And if they don't do it, sometimes I also do it secretly for them so that I can show up to them, like, look, this is what you already achieved. Wow, wow. Well, honestly, thank you so much for joining And I think, yeah, that was such a such a cool conversation just to kind of dive into leadership in a bit more detail, because I think there's so many aspects of it which we It is quite hard to kind of tackle each thing at once. So just having a bit more insight into how it works and how your experience has been is always going to be helpful.
00:28:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for having the discussion about it. Thank you.