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Episode 47 - Silka Gurabardhi, DEI Community & Engagement Manager at OLX
22 Plays1 month ago
In this episode of Sade sits down with Silka, DEI Community & Engagement Manager at OLX, whose passion for inclusion is as infectious as her energy.
From breaking into the world of DEI to shaping a culture where everyone truly belongs, Silka shares her journey, insider tips, and bold ideas, including the game-changing initiative she’d launch if budget were no limit.
You’ll hear:
- How she carved her path into a DEI-focused role
- What OLX is doing to make inclusion more than just a buzzword
- The metrics that prove real progress
- Her “dream big” project with unlimited resources
- Advice for aspiring DEI champions
Whether you’re curious about DEI careers or looking for fresh ways to create impact in your own workplace, this episode will leave you inspired and ready to take action.
I hope you enjoy the episode!
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Transcript
Introduction of Silke and OLX's DEI Culture
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome back to a new episode of Women Talk Tech. Today I'm joined by Silke, DEI Community and Engagement Manager at OLX. We discuss how she got into a DEI-focused role and of course what her day-to-day involved.
00:00:28
Speaker
She shares what OLX are doing to build a truly inclusive culture and the metrics used to measure success.
Silke's DEI Initiatives and Career Advice
00:00:34
Speaker
Silke also shares what initiatives or campaigns she'd launch if money was not an object and of course the advice she'd give to those who are looking to follow a similar career.
00:00:42
Speaker
I hope you love this conversation as much as I did. Awesome. So thanks, Silke, for joining me. and Typical starting question. and Tell me a little bit more about yourself.
Silke's Personal Background and Passion for DEI
00:00:52
Speaker
great.
00:00:53
Speaker
Hi, Shade, hi, everyone. Well, I'm Silke Gurabardi. I have been told i have endless energy. I am a lifelong learner, I like to think, a very curious person.
00:01:08
Speaker
I'm very but ah ah passionate about people and culture. I'm also a self-proclaimed DI geek, as I like to call myself. but I'm originally from Albania. I was brought up there and after living in a few European countries.
00:01:23
Speaker
um For the last 10 years, I'm based here in the beautifully diverse Berlin, where I also work as a DI community and engagement manager at OLX Group. Oh, amazing. And I actually can't wait to dive a bit deeper into what you've been doing at OLX. So yeah, we'll get straight into it.
00:01:40
Speaker
um So let's go back to the beginning of your career, right? Because, you know, I always find it so interesting how people end up in a DEI focused role. So how did you kind of end up here?
00:01:50
Speaker
No, that's, that's a great question, because I really didn't plan to end up here. Yeah. To be honest, growing up back in Albania, when I had to figure out what to do with my life or my career, i didn't even know DEI existed or there was a career path into it, right?
00:02:06
Speaker
But I always say i had like the curse, which now I consider a bit of a blessing of being a jack of all trades and master of none.
00:02:18
Speaker
So, yes. ah So, at a young age, like i I literally had very different interests and I really could not visualize a clear career path, to be honest. A few core things that were always there were my passion for people. I always had a strong sense of social justice.
00:02:36
Speaker
And of an obsession, I like to think healthy, but the an obsession with ah equality. And yes, I sought out diversity, I appreciated it, promoted it.
00:02:49
Speaker
And I always kind of spoke up and and it came very easy to me to stand up for things that matter and also for people. And always worked to find ways to create more fairness, to be honest, in my smaller circle, but also in the world if I could.
00:03:05
Speaker
And yeah, I try to incorporate all this in my personal and professional life.
Silke's Career Path from Coordinator to DEI Leader
00:03:12
Speaker
So when I start working at RLX, actually over six years ago now, I was hired as a workplace coordinator. My main focus was to build an amazing workplace culture.
00:03:26
Speaker
But I was lucky enough to have a few people to see and appreciate my diversity, equity and inclusion approach, that i'm going to say because I was trying to always be very intentionally inclusive.
00:03:37
Speaker
and And we had such a diverse ah company and it's such a diverse workplace, to be honest. We have like, I don't know, people from... over 80 nationalities throughout OLX and just in the Berlin office out of 300 people, they were from 55 different countries.
00:03:52
Speaker
um So yes, so that's ah and OLX actually was already investing a lot in DI at the time. um which wasn't very common, to be honest, for for Europe. They started already with a what used to be called at the time a global D&I initiative, right, back in 2017. So i joined in And within months, I got the opportunity to be part of what we had.
00:04:20
Speaker
It was volunteering job to say ah to say at the time, it was like we ah we had this DEI Global Council and we had to local DEI committees, we called them.
00:04:34
Speaker
So within six months, I was leading the Berlin D&I committee. And yes, two years later, OLX decided to really properly take it to the next ah phase and create full-time jobs for DEI.
00:04:48
Speaker
And I was given the opportunity to become the DEI manager. But yeah, until that point, I really do know that a career in DEI was possible. But it made so much sense, right?
The Growing Importance of DEI Roles
00:05:00
Speaker
And you know, i can I can really see how maybe the time that it came around or time that it came about, it was becoming, i don't want to say popular because that feels wrong to say, but the notion of DEI was being spoken about more. And I also thought so I'd see a lot more people in roles like that, whereas before,
00:05:18
Speaker
I didn't even know that was a thing right yes exactly the same sentiment so I always say I just got lucky I was in the right place at the right time with the right people yeah and like day-to-day like what is your role involved because you know I don't want people to to think oh I know a DEI role involved just you know events or you know and it's you know community groups or you know getting everyone together from a minority background for some lunch. Like that's, it's so much more than that. So I hope that you can prove that. So what does your kind of day-to-day actually involve in your role?
00:05:51
Speaker
Oh yeah love love yeah. You're so right. Right. And actually my my role, when I first started it it was focused because I was like the DI community manager. Right. So it was focused in building the communities, what we call them. Right.
00:06:04
Speaker
and And there was a big focus. We launched our business. business resource groups program and we made sure to really have them very established. having a governance really empower them to do their work right.
00:06:17
Speaker
And yes, it was a lot about campaigns and events on a global level in this case to raise awareness, to build understanding. um But it has evolved throughout the time,
Silke as a Strategic DEI Partner
00:06:30
Speaker
right? is it It is true, but it's very important now to really empower everyone to own DI, as I call it, right? So yes, I am the DI manager, but DI is everybody's job, so to say, if we don't come all together, we cannot change things.
00:06:46
Speaker
So part of it is to to empower everyone to find their own power and and how to use it. And that's why now I always say, like you know, like you have people partners or HR business partners, as we call them in some organization.
00:07:01
Speaker
I see myself as a strategic partner for everything DI related. And it my day to day life, it goes from like coaching the leadership of our business resource groups, listening and partnering with managers and team and other functions. Right.
00:07:19
Speaker
And yeah, sometimes it can be just one person, or like an an employee that reaches out that have like, I don't know, some some doubts or things or like their or a team is launching a new, I don't know, marketing campaign, maybe.
00:07:32
Speaker
and they have some some doubts on how to approach it if they're doing it in the right way or in the most inclusive way. And I just partner with them and we work together, right? So, and yes, we design trainings and workshops.
00:07:45
Speaker
um At the beginning, there were like, We never had like proper DEI training, so to say, but you know, you had the standards and conscious bias trainings and I don't know what else.
00:07:57
Speaker
um Throughout the years, we're literally are being more, we adopt more and we're trying to to to design workshops and trainings that are relevant to where we are now and where we want to go next.
00:08:11
Speaker
A big part of my job is, as I said, I partner with a lot of other teams as well we to review policies, processes and systems. But even from starting from our tools, what we use, you know, we really have to make sure that are truly inclusive and they can help create a positive and fair experience for all.
00:08:29
Speaker
There is a lot of active listening actually to my job. So um um we aim to continuously adapt our strategy and initiatives so we can create a great organization culture and help everyone thrive. But whereas before was like, oh, we're going to have this month and recognize this initiative.
00:08:49
Speaker
Now it's more about just listen to what people actually need, right? And what what comes up and come together and and build something that really is helpful and has impact.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, you're so right, because things do come up and DEI five years ago versus DEI now. we're maybe dealing with very different issues, maybe different things that have come up over time.
00:09:13
Speaker
There's wars going on in the world right now. and There's so many other aspects I think it's important to cover without completely forgetting why we started in the first place, right? Oh, yes. I completely agree. Because as I said, you know you want to be also strategic. You want to see yourself and you're organized. every Every team has their, i don't know, like theirre their KPIs, right? They have their plan.
00:09:35
Speaker
and And we did the same. We we would come up for every year with a strategy. It's like, we're going to do this this year. We're going to launch this program. And then we're going to do this training. And then all of a sudden something happens and you realize, wow.
00:09:47
Speaker
wait a minute, there are more sensitive issues right now. And let's just focus on what our people need and what the world needs to right now, right? Yeah. And i also think you have to look at what your people need. You know, you could run a campaign on one aspect, which may not apply to any of your team and you could miss a really, really important topic that do apply to the team. So I do think it is right. It's active listening to the people in your organization for sure.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yes, I think,
Key DEI Strategies: Active Listening and Psychological Safety
00:10:12
Speaker
yes, I think that was the key for us. We call it active listening. We also started getting like, you know, like you do engagement service once a year, right? We started doing it every quarter and in the last years because everything was shifting so fast and everything was happening so fast. right And that was what was key for us, literally. And and it it is about that, you know because when we talk about the as you said, we bring people, we want to give people a voice, right diverse people, people from ah underrepresented groups, people from from marginalized groups. right So first thing we have to really train is active listening.
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah. And in a company like OLX, I'm always keen keen to kind of dive deep into like what actually goes into building an inclusive culture, right? Because you could spend so much time on hiring, that could help.
00:11:00
Speaker
You could partner with organizations. Of course, we met at ah the Tomorrow Blogs is Her event, which is incredible. But there's I'm sure there's so much other aspects that go into really building that inclusive culture. what have you found to be the most important aspect for OLX?
00:11:16
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Great, great, great question. Because like, as you said, yes, we focus on hiring the the best diverse talent and there is, right? and But I remember always, like for me at OLX, we were organically diverse.
00:11:29
Speaker
Even if we were not aiming into it, we were already very diverse, right? So for us, the the the key was to really build that inclusion culture, right? and And make everybody like, yes, you're welcomed here. You bring your own...
00:11:45
Speaker
diverse background, diversity of thought, you bring everything, but like are you able to actually translate that into the workplace and into the work and with your colleagues, right?
00:11:55
Speaker
Yeah. So I think the main goal for us that we really understood was like just create that psychological safety, right? Yeah. Empower people to speak up so we can listen to as many people as possible.
00:12:09
Speaker
um Empower our colleagues to just be their best selves and be able to share openly their ideas as out of box as they can be, please, because we need that. we need We work in a tech company. Innovation its really needs and thrives in it.
00:12:26
Speaker
and ah so yes so just to create that space where everybody can contribute to our culture but also to our business right in the best way so our aim is to work together to deliver a great experience for our people but also our customers and the communities we have is an impact on know where where our products are and where our people are uh the long the main The goal is to create sustainable, positive change.
00:12:56
Speaker
and um And to do so, we have to think bing and go outside of our legs, right? it's It's okay to think that we have we have reached it here. We have created that cycle. By the way, it's always a work in progress, right?
00:13:11
Speaker
And we can reach it, it's like, what about outside? You know, what about where our customers are? And so that's why it's very important to partner with organizations that share the same mission and values with us. Like, like Tomorrow Belongs to Her, right? That was our main thing when Vesela, the founder of Tomorrow Belongs to to her like reached out, it was like, oh yes, we love it. Because her mission is and simple, is to empower women to lead, to break barriers and challenge biases and inspire women to uplift each other.
00:13:45
Speaker
It's to reach true equality,
OLX's Partnerships and Measuring DEI Impact
00:13:47
Speaker
let's say. So this is very much in line with what we wanted to relax. and And yes, we are a tech company and our industry is still viewed as quite male dominated, right? And it's a reality, to be honest.
00:14:01
Speaker
But for us, it's not good enough. So partnering with other organizations that want to really create real change is crucial. Yeah, honestly, it was, mean, the event was incredible. But I think what loved more about what you just said is that you didn't just mention, mean, the internal team at OLX is important, but like, it's about the customer. It's about everyone involved in making OLX. And I think you could spend a lot of time on the customer side and kind of neglect the hiring or neglect the team then vice versa. And DEI doesn't encompass so much more than just the internal team and the campaigns you run. It's the customer, it's the investors, it's everything.
00:14:36
Speaker
100%, right? And it's like, so if anybody says if DI still has a role to play, think about your customer base, right? If you don't want to do it because it's the right thing, you know, I don't want to, I'm a DI practitioner, I don't want to make a business case here.
00:14:51
Speaker
But if you have to talk to people that just speak business, let's call it, or numbers, ah Think about your customers and think about why GEI is important because you're really going to get to you're going to give them the best service, the best experience, and going to reach because your customers base, if you're a company like ours that is like ah active in different countries and have a very ah diverse customer base, then you need it.
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah. And then how do you measure this? Because I can imagine ah lot of, a lot of those topics that maybe we discuss, I've heard fluffy or I've heard, i mean, the fluffy is the word I absolutely hate, but I've heard so many times that, you know, it's fluffy or like, how do you actually tangibly see the, you know, success or whatever.
00:15:36
Speaker
And I'm sure, like you said, in many aspects, you have to maybe pitch ideas to the leadership team and you have to show why it's important. So then how do you then measure if it's been successful or the impact of the initiatives which you then run?
00:15:49
Speaker
Oh, I wish I had the perfect answer for that. Still, we haven't gotten there. But unfortunately, it's in the nature of DI, right? It's like it's very difficult to to really put numbers in certain things, right? Because the impact is way broader. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes it's just the number of, oh, did we improve in our engagement survey? You know, we have specific DI questions there, they are very, very clear, you know.
00:16:15
Speaker
so that is one of the metrics to see if we are progressing, if our people are feeling more comfortable in certain aspects, right? but But it is more difficult because the impact is sometimes, like as I said, our main goal is to really change culture and really create sustainable ah change and fairness.
00:16:35
Speaker
So, yeah, it's for like the best thing would be I'm going to sign Fluffy, but it's like there's those little shifts in mindset. is like but Right. So, yeah, unfortunately, there is not enough data to really capture the impact of the things that we do, but we're still trying it.
00:16:52
Speaker
And by the way, just going back to data, because like that's why I love the. I love that Tomorrow Belongs to Her you know and what Vesela is doing with it because they are trying to capture data you know and to go into research and seeing like why we women are still being viewed in certain way and why there are so many barriers.
00:17:12
Speaker
and how we can come together to succeed, right? So she's doing it from like a ah survey. She's doing research and survey. And that's what we try to do here. we From an initiative or a program or a training, yes, first metric is are people taking part of it right?
00:17:29
Speaker
Are being like actively taking part of it because we really need... So sometimes, and especially in our hybrid world, when you have a virtual... ah when you have it. Right, let's be real, like, you know, you have like, ah you do a training or a workshop and people join, but the camera is off, you cannot make them put the camera on and you're like, are they actually listening?
00:17:50
Speaker
Yeah. So we we actually we have to really tweak the format all the time. We do polls. Now we try to really get feedback oh also throughout the call or like create moments that we really see if people are listening in and taking something out of this, right?
00:18:07
Speaker
and And yes, there is a lot of feedback like feedback forms that goes. And I said our engagement survey is um is overall overall very important. But yeah. ah but yeah Still quite difficult, but I really see for me, as I said, although it's not the easiest one to put on a page, but and an initiative is is successful if we start seeing some little shifts in mindset, as I call it, right?
00:18:36
Speaker
we've seen people starting talking about certain topics that were almost not touched before we've seen people speaking more up ah to leadership or even in all hands and demanding accountability right just like but we are very di is very important for us are we considering it when we were thinking about this right yeah well that is a little bit of an indication that we are like maybe in the right path yeah i do think you're right that shift i think I hope will come when we've got a lot more data to show these aspects and show the benefits and and show why it's important.
00:19:13
Speaker
And yeah, like said, that's why Vestle and what she's doing is incredible because I think once we have some tangible data, we can then actually pitch it almost and actually have evidence for why these changes need to happen or why we should
Future Challenges and Maintaining a Positive DEI Narrative
00:19:25
Speaker
be doing a bit more. But sometimes, yeah, I think you're right.
00:19:27
Speaker
At the moment, the success is measured in that shift. It's in the it's in the conversations that I think we're having. It's in events like Tomorrow Belongs that are actually happening and going ahead as well. And I think that shows some success in what's going on in the kind of world we're living in right now.
00:19:43
Speaker
Yes, true. But yes, but I mean, there is always, as I said, room where we are trying to measure more. We are trying to investigate more. Sometimes like... ah ah We call it like even a conversation that comes up like a topic from, ah from ah let's say, from one of our business resource groups. We really, from out of those, we have launched, for example, a full investigation, as we call it, or like just creating focus groups, really having the conversation with the people.
00:20:11
Speaker
and then implementing the changes where it is a process or a policy, and then following up again with them and saying, okay, how do you feel now, right? Do you see a change? Those are some maybe a bit more tangible things.
00:20:24
Speaker
Yeah. And looking ahead, um what do you what do you kind of foresee for for yourself being a challenge in this kind of DEI world or? Yeah, just some predictions, because, you know, I'm sure if we spoke five years ago, I don't know if we would have predicted what's going on now. So what do you see happening next?
00:20:42
Speaker
ah and I wish I had a crystal ball, right? Me too. One thing is for sure, we never get bored.
00:20:52
Speaker
You know, there was a moment in time, actually, that I thought our people would think we don't need DI anymore. Oh, my gosh. The craziest thing that ever happened. And I was like, and if that happens, to be honest, then we say I would be very happy if I become redundant, our role becomes redundant. I would be out there, okay, i've I've reached the goal of my life. Yeah.
00:21:14
Speaker
yeah i i work I live and work now in a way more ah fair society. right ah So there was a moment because there was no literally even within our company, you know, we had like, for example, because we do we within within our business resource groups, our women at Alex resource group is very is the biggest, you know.
00:21:36
Speaker
and And we have some other colleagues, female colleagues, for example, they say like, but do we really need it? Do we need to focus so much on gender equality? We have it, right?
00:21:47
Speaker
Maybe they come, I love that they have, I've had this privileged, let's say, situation. And they feel that they don't need it because they feel they are like, they don't need to fight for it because they feel comfortable and empowered enough and they have reached whatever they wanted to reach in life. Right.
00:22:04
Speaker
So lovely. But yeah, so there was, there was a concern for a moment that like, I was like, I had to like really tell them yet. We are not there yet. There is still a lot going in the world. And, and also in our workplace, we have to stop the work when everybody has, um,
00:22:21
Speaker
and not just equal opportunity but like ah really like experience fairness and has uh uh everything they need to to thrive and uh whereas now i know now and now the biggest challenge is the narrative that is being it's outside of our legs it's outside of my even my own country where i'm based right or even where our legs is present but like The global shift now and the narrative that is being created about DEI being this, I don't know, evil or reverse discrimination or what people say and ah the stories that they are building that DEI is about...
00:23:00
Speaker
hiring the the less capable capable candidate. I don't know. There is so much going out out there. and And, you know, like we stayed our course. It doesn't have to do anything with us.
00:23:12
Speaker
and But to even within a great company, as I was, I think we are very good. I'm sorry. I'm like a really complimenting myself. No, but I think we're doing... We're doing a lot of good work and I think we're doing it in the right way, right? You're still going to have those people that are maybe a bit more skeptical and are more like...
00:23:33
Speaker
they've been a bit more resistant about DEI or don't understand it or don't understand how impacted them or think as DEI being a zero-sum game, like us against them, right?
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah. And ah so, of course, with everything that is going and with all this, let's call them influential people in the world saying this, you're very afraid that you're going to be influenced, right, about this.
00:24:01
Speaker
So yes, that's ah that's a bit of a a risk to say. And that's what it's, I think, a challenge right now. But i yeah I will not accept this story.
00:24:14
Speaker
It's not our story. And I will be here to to have the conversation with everyone that thinks that and and just double down in why we do what we do and how we do it. Yeah, I think you're right. There's no way we can control the outside noise.
00:24:30
Speaker
However, like you said, we don't have to let that be our story and we can kind of do all we can to make sure that we're still doing the good work. Because unfortunately, it's like that in everything. like What's going on right now could ten times 10 in five years time or could completely do a massive shift. And the outside noise is something which we can't control. It's only what we are doing.
00:24:50
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. hundred And I wanted to get a bit creative here. um so if you had unlimited resources, no budget, whatever the money, you know, money is on money's not an issue.
00:25:01
Speaker
What initiative would you launch tomorrow? I love this one because I say it. If I had it i I do say That's an easy one for me. I would start with equal paid parental leave for all.
00:25:14
Speaker
wow. That is a really good one. And ah like, no matter, you know, you no matter your, cause especially when you think about um international companies like ours, you know, we are in different locations, different countries.
00:25:30
Speaker
So no matter your local legislation and the parental leave benefits that are provided by labor law there, right? I'll give every parent, birthing parent or not, ah the same amount of ah paid parental leave. that would be a big game changer, especially when it comes to gender equality and to come to also like fight to like mitigate a bit of those biases that women cannot be hired or promoted because they will go on parental leave, right?
00:25:57
Speaker
And also, ah I know that a lot of non-birthing parents love to spend time with their children and dads that want to stay home, right? And want to be more involved.
00:26:09
Speaker
So i think ah I think I would launch that tomorrow like that. Yeah, I think it would give so much flexibility to around starting a family because at the moment it's still, I mean, in terms of pay and time off, I mean, women get a lot more time off than men, of course. I'm not saying they shouldn't, they have birthed a child.
00:26:27
Speaker
yeah But like you said, there are so many other men that do want to spend more time with their family at home now. And two weeks, just I can't see how that's enough. I even think For me, if I had just given birth and my partner went back to work in two weeks, I would be like, where are you going? Like, where like how could you leave me here, you know?
00:26:45
Speaker
Yes, right. and And like in Germany, it's great because it's an example. In Germany, you can share it, right? Yeah. So it's very equal. But still, even when you share it you know, we see, of course, women, as you said, like they have given birth.
00:27:00
Speaker
So... They're usually ah going to take a bit longer ah time. ah And so still is seen. And also, like e like another thing is like because you can share it, a lot of men still don't go through that or don't go for period for long periods of time. And and when they do...
00:27:21
Speaker
the employer don't look at them nicely like right because it's like why are you taking so long you know make your partner take longer right yeah and hopefully you if this change was i mean i'm gonna we're gonna copyright this or something so we know that when this change happens it's all you do think would also make returning to work easier for women because then there are there whilst they're out of work they're a lot more stress-free because they're being paid well they're being paid equally But then upon their return, it's easier to kind of get back into work because you're not having, know so many women who have to take a pay drop to kind of get back into the workforce after having some time off because for whatever reason, they are clearly not capable of doing their job that they were what they would do before they had a child. So yeah, it would maybe hopefully make returning to work a bit easier.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I completely agree. So yeah, I would go with that. And I also would split some of the budget. I would give more budget to to employee groups. Yeah. And, you know, for those who are maybe considering following a similar path to yourself or interested in kind of going into a DEI role or maybe like yourself, you maybe are volunteering in their company now, but want to take that next step.
Advice for Aspiring DEI Professionals
00:28:35
Speaker
What a advice would you give to someone who wants to be more like you and and have a DEI kind of focus role? Well, first of all, find the right organization. I'm kidding. That is very true.
00:28:48
Speaker
I mean, let's be real. Not everybody is investing on it, right? So, yes, I think you should be lucky enough to be in the right organization that are willing to give a full-time job for this and and and pay you and and ah reward you and recognize you, right? Yeah.
00:29:04
Speaker
But yeah, it is it is a very hard job, let's be honest. But if you love it and you're passionate about it do it because it's so worth it. And yes, you you need to get comfortably navigating a little bit into the gray, though.
00:29:21
Speaker
I know for me that was the hardest part. um so Because, you know, this job is most of the time... or or some of the time is not about who or what is right and who or what is wrong or absolute truth. It is about coming into the conversations and listening to each other and finding the best solution for something that benefits us all, right?
00:29:46
Speaker
But another thing that like the ultimate advice would be please remember a real and sustainable change takes time. done Don't throw the towel roll, keep working for it. Just ah be patient and kind to yourself.
00:30:02
Speaker
Yeah. And let's keep offering support to those who are in these roles because it's not easy. Like you said, it's very hard work. It does involve maybe a lot of difficult conversations, which maybe some are not even comfortable to have. yeah So I think you know if you are and look after yourself but also find an organization that does support this as well for you yes i mean that is key amazing oh silica honestly i've absolutely loved having you on it's been such a pleasure kind of diving into it and actually having someone who's in a focus role actually kind of explain what and what's involved so thanks again for joining me thank you so much for having me and for everybody listening it was great and loved meeting you and keep doing what you're doing is great