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E8 RSPCA: How it developed its latest laying hen standards image

E8 RSPCA: How it developed its latest laying hen standards

The Poultry Network Podcast
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In this episode of the Poultry Network podcast, co-hosts Tom Woolman and Tom Willings are joined by Kelly Grellier, Chief Commercial Officer at RSPCA Assured, and Kate Parkes, Senior Scientific Officer at the RSPCA, to explore the updated laying hen welfare standards.

The conversation opens with an explanation of the relationship between the RSPCA and RSPCA Assured. 

The RSPCA is responsible for writing the welfare standards, informed by peer-reviewed science, practical trial data, and veterinary input. RSPCA Assured supports implementation, conducts assessments, and helps producers apply the standards on farm.

The guests discuss how scientific research, outcome-based measures, and producer feedback are all considered when updating standards. 

While RSPCA Assured has gathered over a decade of farm-level welfare data, such as feather cover and flock behaviour, they acknowledge that analysing this data in a more strategic way is a future priority. 

To support this, they’ve invested in a new Impact and Insights team to enhance how data informs benchmarking and continuous improvement.

The Standards Technical Advisory Group (STAG), comprising researchers, vets, and producers, plays a central role in developing and refining the standards. 

For the 2023 laying hen standards, discussions began in 2021 and included consultations with producers, manufacturers, and industry experts. 

After implementation, an additional working group—comprising regional producers and STAG representatives—was formed to address practical concerns. 

This led to clarification in wording and, in a few cases, adjustments to make implementation more feasible while preserving welfare goals.

The episode highlights the importance of broad and ongoing consultation, especially in light of external reviews, such as the AHDB and NFU-led Farm Assurance Review and Defra’s review into fairness in the supply chain. 

Both have reinforced the value of engagement at a practical level, something the RSPCA is committed to embedding in future revisions.

Looking ahead, the next version of the laying hen standards is expected in 2027. 

While major changes are not anticipated, the team will begin consulting on topics flagged in the current version’s information boxes. 

These may signal future aspirations or focus areas but will undergo the same robust review and consultation process.

Kelly and Kate also share how producers can engage in the development process—whether through the regional working group, contact with the farm and technical engagement team, conversations with assessors, or by reviewing publicly available summary notes on the RSPCA websites.

The podcast closes with a discussion on the role of supermarkets. While retailers are not directly involved in STAG, RSPCA Assured has strong relationships with agricultural teams within retail businesses and has created a new team focused on engaging them around welfare strategy alignment. 

Crucially, however, the standards remain independently set.

The episode underscores the challenge and necessity of balancing science, practicality, and commercial viability in welfare assurance—and the importance of collaboration at every stage.

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Transcript

Intro

Introduction and Guests

00:00:16
Tom Woolman
Hello and welcome back to the Poultry Network podcast. My name is Tom Woolman.
00:00:22
Tom Willings
And I'm Tom Willings.
00:00:24
Tom Woolman
And joining us this week, we've got the RSPCA or to be more specific, we've got to the two people from the RSPCA um because we wanted to talk about the the new laying hen standards, which are out.
00:00:37
Tom Woolman
um So joining us today, we've got Kelly Grellier, who's the chief commercial officer for RSPCA Assured. um And we've also got Kate Parks, um section manager and pig and poultry expert for the ah RSPCA. so So welcome both to the Poultry Network podcast.
00:00:53
Kelly
Thank you.
00:00:53
Tom Willings
Good to see you both.
00:00:53
Kate Parkes
Thank you very much. Angie?
00:00:56
Kelly
Great to be here.
00:00:56
Tom Woolman
um
00:00:56
Kelly
Thanks.
00:00:57
Tom Woolman
We were just um thinking this is the first time that we've had four people um on the podcast. So we're interested to see how it goes. And yeah, um if ah if we're all talking over each other,
00:01:10
Tom Woolman
it must mean that um either that's a very good thing or or probably quite a bad thing for the listener. But so give give ah give ah ah a nod and a wink um if you want to say

RSPCA and RSPCA Assured Roles

00:01:20
Tom Woolman
something. So um I just wondered if we could if we could start, Kelly and Kate, um on understanding the relationship between the RSPCA, as as as the organisation and RSPCA assured.
00:01:33
Tom Woolman
um What are their roles? How do they work together? um who whod Who'd like to start with that?
00:01:39
Kate Parkes
Yeah, yeah. Thanks, thanks Tom. um So obviously, ah the RSPCA, we've been working for like over 200 years now um trying to improve farm animal welfare and been working over the last 30 with our colleagues in RSPCA Assured.
00:01:51
Kate Parkes
and But we do have slightly different roles in terms of kind of um our day to day working. So in the RSPCA, one of our main roles is to actually write the welfare standards. they're the ones that get used by RSPCA Assured. So we'll be the ones looking at sort of the evidence base for it, consulting, you know,
00:02:09
Kate Parkes
working out where we're going to set those standards, as well as our more broad work in terms of feeding into sort of campaigns or lobbying work.
00:02:16
Tom Woolman
and and
00:02:17
Kelly
and
00:02:17
Tom Woolman
And how does scientific research then feed into those standards?

Scientific Research and Welfare Standards

00:02:22
Kate Parkes
Yeah, well to be on... Kelly, go ahead.
00:02:24
Kelly
you might You might want me to talk about RSPCA Assured as well as at some point, but we can come back.
00:02:30
Tom Woolman
Well, yeah, go finish that question then. Talk about RSPCA assured and how that fits in then.
00:02:32
Kelly
yeah
00:02:36
Kelly
um So RSPCA Assured, we work really closely with our colleagues um in ah RSPCA as the standards are being developed so that we can share feedback um from our members on the sort of practical considerations.
00:02:50
Kelly
We also have a farm and technical engagement team who support the implementation of the standards, um sharing best practice, sharing examples um across our members to help people um sort of know what's working well for others.
00:03:04
Kate Parkes
Thank you.
00:03:04
Kelly
um We've got a really highly experienced team of assessors as well. So we then are also carrying out annual sort of member assessments to make sure that actually what the standards are being delivered in practice um and that consumers can be confident ah that ah the standards and the quality of life um for the animals are RSPCA assured um And we also market as well. So would have seen this year um we focused on laying hens actually in our marketing to really help consumers understand that when they're choosing RSPCA Shored and they see the logo, um that those animals have had a good life. um
00:03:43
Kelly
So we kind of cover that broad spectrum.
00:03:46
Tom Woolman
Okay, ah okay. and And so that brings me back again to to to scientific evidence and and scientific evidence of what a, what a inverted commas, good life is. how How do you go about assessing that then, Kate?

Data Collection on Farms

00:03:59
Kate Parkes
Yes, we use lots of different um aspects in terms of science to inform what we're doing. And that's not just in terms of developing the standards, but it's also in terms of our sort of policy work generally. So we look at lots of different sources.
00:04:13
Kate Parkes
um Our kind of gold standard, want to better phrase, would be that kind of peer-reviewed scientific research, just because of the robustness and the independence of it. But we're looking at other other sources of evidence as well. So it could be, um say, robust farm trial data.
00:04:28
Kate Parkes
um It could be sort of welfare outcome assessment type data, reports from um respected bodies, whether that's veterinary, you know scientific academia type bodies. um So that those are all the different sort of, I suppose, areas of evidence that we'd look at.
00:04:44
Kate Parkes
um But it's not just where it comes from. It is that kind of robustness and integrity because we want to make sure that you know, when we're drawing conclusions about what putting in the standards, we can be confident in that. So we're also looking at, you know, ah there are there a number of studies that say the same thing? um you know, yeah where where where has it come from? Is it that kind of scientific side versus more of a sort of, you know, farm trial? So all that kind of goes into the pot in terms of consideration.
00:05:10
Kate Parkes
And then we also bring in that more practical side in terms of, okay, this is where science is leading us. This is where science is saying we should kind of be pitching, whether it's standards or or whatever, our recommendations.
00:05:21
Kate Parkes
And then we have those discussions about, well, how can we put that into practice? Are there any practical constraints, considerations that we need to factor in as well? So we're getting that kind of rounded view in terms of all the different sort stakeholders views that we can have a think about before we might be developing standards.

Revising Standards and Data Utilization

00:05:41
Tom Willings
Kate, can I ask, ah you you guys have been um on farm auditing on farm, gathering farm data directly through your assessors for a number of years.
00:05:42
Kate Parkes
Hmm.
00:05:49
Tom Willings
how how How big a pot of data have you got? you know What sort of stuff have you got data on? And then how is that data formed part of your um kind of progression of the standards, if at all?
00:06:03
Kate Parkes
Yeah, so um I might hand over to Kelly on this one.
00:06:04
Kelly
yes
00:06:05
Kate Parkes
But but generally, yeah, you're right. When we're talking about laying hens, we've been collecting data on sort of feather cover, um you know, the behaviour of the flock. um And you're right, I think, goodness, probably going on for 10 years now we've been collecting this data.
00:06:18
Kate Parkes
And that is part of the actual standards. The standards require that to be um recorded. it is our assessors that go out and do that as part of the process.
00:06:25
Tom Willings
But i I understand it's part of the part of the process.
00:06:26
Kate Parkes
Mm-hmm.
00:06:29
Tom Willings
It's a requirement to gather that information. My question is, does that information and has that information informed how your policies have matured over time?
00:06:40
Kate Parkes
Yeah, um unfortunately, to date, we haven't been able to delve down into that level of detail in the data. um But certainly, that is something that we want to do going forwards. We'd like to be able to to take that data and say, okay it's, you know, most of our farms performing really well in X area.
00:06:51
Kelly
Yes.
00:06:58
Kate Parkes
But in maybe we need to look at that, whether that's in terms of other standards where they should be. you know do we need to make some tweaks or is there a bit more sort of interaction with producers? But Kelly kelly can cover this in a bit more detail.
00:07:10
Kelly
Yeah, and and just to say we we've invested in ah the team. So we now have our impact and insights team, which reports directly to our executive director and has the welfare outcomes team within that so that we can really kind of boost um and sort of supercharge, if you like, that area of our organisation to really help not just um and not just inform the standards, but also make that really available um and more transparent in a benchmarking type way um for our members.
00:07:29
Kate Parkes
Mm-hmm.
00:07:43
Tom Willings
Mm-hmm.
00:07:44
Kelly
So that is something that we're going to be working on going forward. So watch this space. um Hopefully we can come back another time and tell you about it.
00:07:51
Tom Willings
then that would be great that would be great i was just thinking you your your team on the ground would have seen more farms than anybody else any other working group you've got um you know more than 50 i think you mentioned um before we went on air as it were before we started recording more than 50 of the birds in the country are under the under the scheme and of course if they're being inspected regularly then you you'll have a great handle on
00:08:05
Kelly
Yep.
00:08:15
Tom Willings
um how different elements of the the housing

Producer Engagement and Representation

00:08:18
Tom Willings
system or the conditions, environmental conditions on the farm at the point that you're you're visiting play into you know the measurable welfare outcomes or um you know any other statistic that you're you're looking to
00:08:19
Kate Parkes
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:33
Tom Willings
to record and so i'm um I was curious to understand how that helped you shape what good looks like so that you can make make you know informed decisions about standards in the future but you've you've you've answered my question I think like the next natural question want to ask is about the the STAG committee which is the standards technical advisory group is that right is that have I got that correct and and that still exists is that is that correct?
00:08:54
Kate Parkes
Yes, that's right. yeah
00:08:59
Kate Parkes
Yes, we have that a similar group, I suppose, for all our species of standards. So yes, we do still have one for laying hens, separate one for pullets, because whilst similar issues, ah they're often there are different things we discuss.
00:09:11
Kate Parkes
So yeah, that the meeting of that group um generally happens formally at least once a year, but we have in you know interim meetings. But we did pause that um once the standards had been released um just because um we felt we wanted to engage more um and it just felt right to pause that at that moment. but We are looking to reconvene that group going forwards.
00:09:32
Tom Willings
Were they then part of the original, I say original, but I'm referring to the 23 iteration of the revised standards?
00:09:37
Tom Woolman
Amen.
00:09:39
Tom Willings
Was that stag group central to creating those revisions?
00:09:44
Kate Parkes
Yes, so with any um set of standards, we have a ah sort of set process that we follow. So in terms of um that particular set of standards, yeah, we first started started talking about natural daylight and verandas and these other issues way back actually in 2021.
00:10:00
Kate Parkes
um And we went through a process of, you know, discussing with the stag, refining afterwards, going out, gathering more data where we needed to, going on farm visits, for example, you know, consulting with man and ah building manufacturers, et cetera, to get more detailed information. so throughout that process, you know, we did make amendments, make revisions. So,
00:10:20
Kate Parkes
ah but that is the process we would follow for for any species standard it wasn't unique to laying hens
00:10:26
Tom Willings
I know um yeah a lot of the feedback in the industry is very, um the whole feedback loop is nuanced.
00:10:36
Tom Willings
yeah You get a lot of noise from a very small number of people. um The majority of the noise comes from people who feel a certain way or have a particular view, and it doesn't

Diverse Representation in STAG Group

00:10:45
Tom Willings
necessarily reflect the whole, I understand that.
00:10:48
Tom Willings
um but i wonder whether or not you look at that stag group as a an advisory group and maybe there are others as well that represent the practical side of industry and i wonder whether or not you reflect on the the constitution of that group and who should be on it and and and you know what would you say to members about how it's formed and and uh and where you get advice
00:11:14
Kate Parkes
yeah I can I can totally understand that question and I think I think we we we do have a good representation on there can things be improved absolutely and we do I suppose with all of them take stock from time to time in terms of you know have we got the right people on there. And by that, I mean, are we, as you say, represent, have we got the representation we need? And that could be in terms of, um you know, businesses, if we're talking about the producer side, business size, geographic location, types of systems that they have. So we're definitely reflecting on that in terms of um its membership and just making sure that we we do have kind of that that broad representation.
00:11:54
Kate Parkes
But it isn't just, I suppose, that producer side that we that we engage with on that stag. We do also have, you know, people from academic research, industry, species-specific vets, to try and get that rounded picture. But definitely the voice of the producer is important in in that group, hence why we we will look at them the membership going forwards.
00:12:12
Kelly
and we um And just to sort of build on that, the sort of post-release, post-November 23, sort of recognising that we wanted to kind of get the voice of um some more producers in and understand the issues that they were raising, which there were 14 total, um and understand how we achieve that welfare outcome that we want to um drive forward whilst mitigating the sort of concerns that they had on a practical basis. So we set up a working group, which had representatives actually from the STAG, um as well as um ah producers from each of the regions um across the UK, ah two producers per region. And we met monthly.

Post-Release Collaboration

00:12:53
Kelly
um for um over 12 months actually and worked systematically on the issues that they had raised and and it was um really uh it was really good it was it it was practical we um sort of they identified the issues we talked about what welfare outcomes we were trying to achieve and and then we for a lot of it it was about clarifying actually and being a bit clearer in the wording and the standard um And then there was just sort of less than a handful, which um we really needed to look at, OK, well, how do we achieve this welfare goal and um sort of shift and revise the standard to make it um the sort of implementation of it more practical um for um for producers? So and we intend going forward to work in a more collaborative sort of way to augment that stag process, which is really important in terms of that scientific base.
00:13:50
Tom Willings
Thanks Kelly.
00:13:50
Tom Woolman
Yeah, if if you forgive me for drawing parallels, sometimes it's made me smile because I was thinking about the ah the new Labour government elected last year and um on a mandate of change and um some of the challenges that they've had you know in terms of, well, we know where we want to get to, but in terms the actual nuts and bolts of getting there, you've got to go through a process of consultation, haven't you, sometimes, and revision.
00:13:59
Kate Parkes
Thank
00:14:14
Tom Woolman
And yeah and again, apologies for for maybe drawing that... so That connection. But I think, yeah, when you're looking at change, um yeah, it's it's it's it's difficult to get right, isn't it? And it's worth taking time to to to to fully consult with them with with as many stakeholders as possible.
00:14:32
Tom Willings
but but beyond being worth taking time you know there are there there are two reviews out in the ether one the the defra fairness in the supply chain review and and the other i think is backed by nfu um you know the farm assurance review both of which would place consultation with membership you at a practical level front and center in in in just the way these things should be conducted and i guess
00:14:46
Kelly
Hmm.
00:14:58
Tom Willings
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine that that those documents and the and the feedback from those processes must shape how you you know would would implement change in the future.

Independent Reviews and Continuous Improvement

00:15:12
Kelly
And we welcomed those and ah you know when we sort of the AHDB sort of n few um document actually there were a number of areas that we were already working on as sort of two organisations. We were already obviously working on this much more kind of ah sort of broader collaborative um sort of approach to get that feedback and and sort of and and inform how we work going forward.
00:15:39
Kelly
um but also from a kind of scheme integrity perspective, we've done an independent review um of the scheme following um the sort of events of last year with um activism and and have got, you know, a really great report which talks to the integrity of the scheme um as that sort of foundational ah baseline. so um we've got some really good sort of foundations to move forward and we're working on that kind of iterative um continuous improvement based on sort of our own findings and findings from those external reports as well.
00:16:14
Tom Willings
I'm conscious of time and I wanna move now into kind of forward looking stuff because laying in standards, we've gone from November 23 to now, um you know, beyond the and the the implementation date of I think it the 11th of July 25.
00:16:15
Kate Parkes
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:16:18
Kelly
Thank you.
00:16:26
Tom Willings
So we we've through a period of discussion with with industry reached ah a point and we're, you know, you're now assessing against those standards.
00:16:37
Tom Willings
um But looking then further down the track, What's next? um You know, how how should or or rather um what should producers, farmers at large, expect in terms of timescale and subject for further reviews?

Revisions to Laying Hen Standards

00:16:57
Kate Parkes
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think, so we work on a two year standard cycle, generally, obviously, there's been a bit of delay with some of the the species in recent years, but that's what we're aiming for.
00:17:08
Kate Parkes
So we would envisage the next version of delaying hen standards coming out in 2027. To be honest, it's probably a little bit early to go into any detail in terms of ah what might be in that partly because obviously, we're just starting those sort of discussions and those um looking into those areas.
00:17:24
Kate Parkes
I think what I can say though is that the standards we do have throughout the standards, information boxes that kind of, they do three things actually. One is just provide more information. um One is to kind of signal an aspiration, which is quite far in the future.
00:17:39
Kate Parkes
and others do signal things that we are potentially looking at. That's not to say they're coming in into the next version necessarily, but they are sort of our key areas that we're looking to drive forward. So so there are areas within that that we're hoping to look at going forwards.
00:17:53
Kate Parkes
um But as always, you know, it's, it is that consultation process that we will be going through. So in terms of, as I say, we're just starting now, we'll be looking to engage with people on those topics to kind of, you know, gather that information, whether it's the latest science, or that, you know, sort of practical feedback. So, you know, given we have had some quite major changes in the latest version, um we don't envisage a similar level of change in the next one.
00:18:19
Kate Parkes
um It may just be
00:18:19
Tom Willings
You think the heavy the heavy lifting was has was done in this latest version and it'll be, you you know you you mentioned continuous improvement tweaks in the future.
00:18:29
Kate Parkes
Yeah, it's it's, you know, I can't say for definite extent started that work, but I i think it's highly likely to be more on those those smaller tweaks, if if that makes sense. Whilst we're probably scurrying around in the background, you know, having those discussions about those more medium to longer term aspirations or changes that we want to put into place.
00:18:47
Kelly
and we um So just going to say, we're going to continue to work in that collaborative, integrated way, the working group, um
00:18:47
Tom Willings
One can...
00:18:47
Tom Woolman
so So if I could ask a question about that those producers that are out there and um and and theyre looking at the standards now and and ah thinking, right, well, I'd be quite keen to engage and and and help feed into to to the future work that you're doing.
00:18:59
Kate Parkes
So.
00:19:01
Tom Woolman
How how are they how are they best do that? to do that
00:19:10
Kelly
that we set up is meeting in September. um And it's really exciting that we'll be meeting up and not talking about the 2026 standards, but starting to have conversations about sort of, well, how they're landing, how they're working in practice, um but also ah ah the sort of questions about the things, um aspirations in the information box.
00:19:31
Kelly
I guess what's critical to say is that that is, as I said earlier, augments the stag process. It's not in any way replacing it is about how we gather that information and and think with industry how's the best way to sort of answer their questions and sort of feed into that process.
00:19:52
Kelly
um But Kate, do you want to?
00:19:53
Kate Parkes
I was going to say i think as well, you know, we've got um the the new team in RSPCA, sure, the farming and technical engagement team that can be contacted anytime as as we can as standard setter if members have a ah particular issue or want to raise anything with us.
00:20:00
Kelly
Yes.
00:20:08
Kate Parkes
You've got the assessors on the ground day to day and they're hugely valuable in feeding back information to us.
00:20:10
Kelly
Yeah.
00:20:13
Kate Parkes
And we're looking at ways to kind of improve that two way flow of information between us and assessors. So I think there's there's lots of opportunities to get that feedback. And I'd say yeah we we do have a lot of information as well on on both our and RSPC Assured's website in terms of what we're doing.
00:20:29
Kate Parkes
um I'm not sure a lot people know that. So, for example, we do publish um what we call summary notes of our meetings. So yeah anyone can go on and see, not in detail, but the what kind of topics we're discussing to get that kind of flavour of areas we're looking at into the future. So, yeah, I'd say people to get in contact with us, definitely.
00:20:50
Tom Willings
Can can i ask a question about the

Supermarkets' Role in Standards

00:20:51
Tom Willings
supermarkets? You know, the RSPCA-assured label, of course, has got great recognition with with with public and it is used as a, you know, it's there to protect reputation of the the retailers whose products carry your trademark.
00:20:52
Kelly
Oh.
00:21:09
Tom Willings
What part, therefore, do the supermarkets themselves and the technical people within the agricultural divisions in supermarkets play in shaping, you know, the standards um in each species?
00:21:21
Kelly
So we, um they're not on the STAG group, but we have a relationship. So my team in RSPC Assured and they have direct relationships with um sort of the team that Kate's in as well.
00:21:34
Kelly
um But we work really closely with our um sort of retail partners, we would call them, um and and have um relationships with people in all sorts of roles actually um including the sort of technical agricultural um roles with those retail partners we have engaged them over the sort of past few months but plan to engage them even more have created a new team actually in RSPC Assured who are all about actually engaging um proactively ah on
00:22:05
Kelly
ah with our retailers on the future welfare ambitions and understanding where that fits with their own strategies as well and how we engage them in these um sort of processes in a more collaborative way. But the standards will always be independently set. you know That's um important. What we're gathering is sort of input into the setting of those standards.
00:22:26
Tom Willings
I think the standards being set independently um is is to everybody's benefit and is wholly wholly right, I think.
00:22:31
Kate Parkes
Hmm.
00:22:33
Tom Willings
um And it's only an observation, but I think but i think um you know on a farm, a farmer would take a great deal of comfort in understanding that the ultimate goal customer the supermarket who's who's going to be the one that determines the value of the produce that that they are um you know creating on the farm that that they are invested in in your standards such that they can actually be paid for whatever on cost that might come as a ah result of implementing those standards and especially so if the standards are going to continue to be more stretching and require kind of capital investment or um you know opex then um
00:22:45
Kelly
No.
00:22:55
Kelly
no
00:23:14
Tom Willings
Yeah, even more important that that that the farmers can be comforted, that the the market recognises values and even requests or instructs those those changes.
00:23:27
Tom Woolman
Yeah, because the the stat all standards have got to be commercially viable, haven't they? They've got to communicate something to ah to a customer that means that that customer is willing to pay for it.
00:23:31
Kate Parkes
or
00:23:35
Tom Woolman
And and it's also got to work for the for the farmer with what they're being asked to do and um yeah and being able to invest in their site. Yeah.
00:23:43
Tom Willings
You put it so much better than I did, Tom. That's exactly right.
00:23:46
Tom Woolman
that's why That's why there's two of us, isn't there?
00:23:48
Tom Willings
Yeah, thank you.
00:23:48
Kelly
and
00:23:50
Tom Woolman
um Well, thank you. Thank you both. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you, Kate, for coming along and talking to us today and shedding a little bit of light um on, on the laying hen standards. um Worth noting as well, um there are new broiler standards out as well.
00:24:05
Tom Woolman
um So if you're a broiler farmer listening to this, um doing RSPCA assured birds, then, then look those up as well. um But yeah, it just remains for me say, thank you. Thank you for coming along again. And, um,
00:24:18
Tom Woolman
Yeah, all the best.
00:24:20
Kelly
Thank you very much.
00:24:20
Tom Woolman
Bye-bye.
00:24:21
Kate Parkes
Yeah, thank you.
00:24:22
Kelly
Thanks.

Outro