Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Ep 18: “Robots, Red Tractor and River Wye: This Week in the UK Poultry Sector
2 Playsin 5 minutes
The “Two Toms” – Tom Willings and Tom Woolman – return with a relaxed but purposeful take on what’s moving the poultry sector.
After some road-warrior and makeshift-office banter, Tom W reports back from the Dutch Pork & Poultry Expo in ’s-Hertogenbosch: a wave of robotics and AI, a colossal chicken/turkey harvester, and a spotlight on feed form innovation.
He flags AgriFirm’s “Crunch” – a mash/crumb hybrid – to open a wider discussion on particle size, digestibility and early-life feed waste (including a mini-pellet revival).
The Toms then turn to unpacking live legal and standards stories: the River Wye civil action (Leigh Day, Avara and others) and potential ramifications across the value chain; the Red Tractor TV ad that was pulled and what “farming with care” does – and doesn’t – claim; plus welfare campaigning from Compassion in World Farming.
They tie these threads into the Try Some Chicken initiative – balancing welfare, environment and cost – and probe the gap between what we say as citizens and what we buy as consumers.
A light sign-off rounds things out: weekend plans, and a nudge to catch the earlier episode and stay tuned for sector updates.
Recommended
Transcript
Intro
Podcast Introduction
00:00:16
Tom Willings
Hello and welcome back to the Poultry Network podcast. I'm Tom Willings.
00:00:21
Tom Woolman
and i am tom woolman we are
00:00:23
Tom Willings
We're getting better at these intros, Tom. It's a bit, when we need to find a new a new rhythm, I think, perhaps to ah to to introduce.
00:00:30
Tom Woolman
yeah yeah well ah at some point i'm going to introduce myself as you and you can introduce yourself as me and we'll see if anyone if anyone picks up on it um
00:00:31
Tom Willings
and
00:00:40
Tom Willings
you're You're in a different location, as am i for the week. We've both got to change a scene. Well, I'll give you my excuse first. You can tell me yours. woke up this morning with absolutely no internet.
00:00:51
Tom Willings
So I've dashed down to my local friendly tyre retailer. For anyone knows my working life will know that Barmer tyres and batteries takes up an inordinate amount of my time and I'm in their office
Unusual Recording Locations
00:01:05
Tom Willings
today. So anything could happen. Where are you?
00:01:08
Tom Willings
where are you
00:01:08
Tom Woolman
Well, so um so I we've had a bit of a mix switch around with rooms. As people know, I've got a lot of children um and the children are growing. So um so we've had a ah ah switch around with rooms to stop some of the infighting.
00:01:25
Tom Woolman
um And and I'm in this room, although I've got a window behind me and I remember I used to do calls in this room. um and And people used to say that I looked like someone that worked for the SAS because because my face was all blacked out.
00:01:37
Tom Willings
yeah
00:01:37
Tom Woolman
ah But hopefully um everyone can see me all right.
00:01:40
Tom Willings
I thought that was a ah reference to the moustache being being you know slightly military.
00:01:41
Tom Woolman
um
00:01:45
Tom Woolman
Well, I do. i do i do look like, yeah, someone that could that could storm an embassy in the 1980s, potentially.
00:01:50
Tom Willings
yeah Yeah, quite right.
00:01:51
Tom Woolman
but
00:01:51
Tom Willings
yeah
00:01:51
Tom Woolman
That's my niche. That's my niche.
00:01:53
Tom Willings
There we go How's your week been? Where have you been? what have you been up to? 2,000 miles.
00:01:56
Tom Woolman
it's been It's been good, actually. I've done, again, my my normal amount of crisscrossing around the country. I've been some farms.
00:02:05
Tom Willings
two thousand miles
00:02:05
Tom Woolman
Well, I did, yes. ah i did ah I did a new record last week, 475 miles in a day, which was was was quite a bit. um So don't want to be doing too many of those.
00:02:17
Tom Willings
yeah
00:02:17
Tom Woolman
How about you?
00:02:19
Tom Willings
I've been to Holland this week. So, um yeah, it's the Dutch, or it was the Dutch Pork and Poultry Expo, which was which was fascinating, I have to say.
00:02:30
Tom Willings
um Quite a small small event.
00:02:31
Tom Woolman
Did you say see see anything good, anything new?
00:02:35
Tom Willings
Yeah, a couple of things. So um firstly, I'll tell you a little story. but You know me, I like a little story. These things start at two o'clock in the afternoon because it's designed for farmers. This is a genius idea. I think in this country, we need to we need to consider this in our own.
00:02:50
Tom Willings
um exhibitions and conferences and and what have you we always complain that the the farmers themselves don't attend and and the and the Dutch solution to that is to start later in the day and run on till 10 o'clock at night which I'm not sure I'm signing up for but anyway i was walking into the into the hall um in Den Bosch in the Netherlands
00:03:08
Tom Woolman
Mm-hmm.
00:03:10
Tom Willings
And thinking, oh, the Dutch pig and poultry trade looks very different to the yeah UK pig and poultry trade. As I was walking past a hundred metre long queue of probably 20 to 30 year old ah ladies all chatting away, very excited about going to the show. And then I realised that the next door hall was hosting the My Jewellery event and that I was about to join the wrong queue.
00:03:36
Tom Willings
So I kept walking with my with my classic chinos, gilet, brown brogues, poultry,
00:03:42
Tom Woolman
yeah i bet they so i bet I bet they could work out which which conference you were going to just by looking at you.
00:03:46
Tom Willings
i was like yeah There was an awful lot of earrings on show. yeah it wasn't It wasn't the place for me. but anyway um no It
Highlights from the Dutch Expo
00:03:54
Tom Willings
was good. it was good and Takeaways, lots of robotics, um lots lots and lots of tech, lots of AI.
00:03:57
Tom Woolman
Hmm.
00:04:01
Tom Willings
ah The biggest ah chicken and turkey harvester I've ever seen. It was like a 30-foot header on the thing. Anyone who's got stanchions, posts in the shed, they weren't going to last five minutes. This thing's absolutely enormous.
00:04:17
Tom Willings
It must terrify the birds as as it comes into the shed, but that was that was pretty impressive. And the videos around that that you know in work also also pretty impressive.
00:04:31
Tom Willings
um There's a little award ceremony and ah and a um Dutch feed manufacturer, AgriFirm, won the first prize for for their innovation of ah um a feed product branded crunch.
00:04:45
Tom Willings
And it was like a like a hybrid between a mash and a and a crumb.
00:04:45
Tom Woolman
so
00:04:51
Tom Willings
So pelletized, you know, then broken up crumb.
00:04:53
Tom Woolman
So there were still various whole bits in it, but but but no.
00:04:56
Tom Willings
No, not maybe. ah yeah No, not really. um You know, it had been smashed within an inch of its life. So kind of homogenized by way of size. I think the the sales pitch was, um,
00:05:06
Tom Woolman
ah just That sounds like dust to me.
00:05:08
Tom Willings
Yeah, was quite dusty, but then it was being compacted so that there were then flakes. But I don't think it had been heated in the way that a pellet would be manufactured.
00:05:12
Tom Woolman
OK.
00:05:15
Tom Willings
So, yeah know, I was actually i was with a nutritionist from Hendrix um and and she was sort of educating me as to, you know, what's actually happening to the nutrients.
00:05:16
Tom Woolman
Yeah.
00:05:24
Tom Willings
But, you know, in a pellet manufacturing process, the heat starts to then break down some of the starches and then it's either, you know, it's not got the same energy content or it changes the rate at which it's absorbed by the animal.
00:05:37
Tom Willings
um you know bird or or swine, etc. And um yeah, it it doesn't behave in the same way. And and this product, Crunch, go and look it up. AgriFirm is the English spelling of it. I won't try and use my Dutch pronunciation again. I think oh but I've done that on a previous episode and people stopped listening.
00:05:55
Tom Willings
um Yeah, it it it it it has a hybrid against the selective feeding, getting a load of feed into the animal. One of the benefits of of feeding a crumb or a pellet, um you know homogenized feed, but um improving some of the, whether it's absorption, digestibility, speed at which it's taken up, I'm not sure.
00:06:17
Tom Woolman
Yeah, so I think with a lot of different feed forms, yeah, it's it's quite interesting looking at how, A, how does the bird respond to it and and and actually consume it? And then also what's the impact um on gut health as well um with different particle sizes?
00:06:26
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:06:30
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:06:30
Tom Woolman
Yeah, certainly I've been interested over the last 12 months in the broiler sector. I've seen quite a resurgence in terms of people feeding mini pellet at placement instead of crumb, you know, a very small pellet, small diameter.
00:06:41
Tom Woolman
But
00:06:41
Tom Willings
Yeah, like a little prill kind of thing.
00:06:42
Tom Woolman
yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah which is which is interesting quite a few of me feed manufacturers doing that not necessarily particularly and ah not particularly easy diet to make um but also you don't get the sort of wastage that you might do um with a bit of crumb um particularly if you're putting it down on paper for chicks and they're eating it and and breaking up the paper so
00:06:43
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:06:53
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:07:00
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:07:07
Tom Woolman
But interestingly, people that are using it have been saying about the mini pellet, oh, we were using this 30 years ago and we stopped using it. And it's interesting how some of these things are quite cyclical in nature.
00:07:17
Tom Willings
It come back round. Yeah. these guys were These guys were really promoting um you know the potential for low carbon diets because it allowed the introduction of byproducts, I guess food waste that's then been repurposed into into animal food
00:07:38
Tom Willings
Yeah, so horses for courses, synonymous with a chocolate bar that they were giving away. I must have eaten like 15 crunch bars. I didn't know it existed beforehand. But you know every time you sort of walk by, that someone thrusts another chocolate bar into your hand or your pocket.
00:07:47
Tom Woolman
of
00:07:53
Tom Woolman
Well, I bet you felt that the next day, Tom.
00:07:53
Tom Willings
I've got sweet tooths.
00:07:56
Tom Woolman
You're you're normally quite careful about what you eat.
00:07:56
Tom Willings
Yeah, I did. Yeah, it didn't do much for my and do much for my gut health, I tell you. Anyway, there we are.
00:08:01
Tom Woolman
um So, yeah, I think we're also going to chat a
Legal Issues in Poultry Industry
00:08:05
Tom Woolman
little bit, weren't we, about some other things that have been in the news um recently. There's a few things, a few sort of legal things, um kicking around which is which is always a worrying place to start as a podcast because whenever you're starting to talk about any sort of legal proceedings I then start feeling like I ought to have some sort of lawyer in the room
00:08:24
Tom Willings
Yeah. and We've got a big disclaimer. Can we put our disclaimer on the screen right now?
00:08:29
Tom Woolman
yeah yeah the Toms, Toms are not lawyers and we apologise if any of the terminology that we use and certainly is incorrect um yeah so but I suppose the
00:08:29
Tom Willings
So we we cover ourselves. Yeah.
00:08:34
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:08:42
Tom Willings
Are you talking about the river wide by any chance? Is this to do with the lead?
00:08:44
Tom Woolman
i am I am, yes, which which has been, i think people had a bit of a but notice, weren't didn't they, that um that that Solicitors Lee Day were looking at bringing this action earlier on in the year.
00:08:46
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:08:56
Tom Woolman
um And I think we're trying, or it might have even been last year, we're trying to trying to See how many people were interested or see how many people um we're were going to come forward with a claim. In the end, they've got they say they've got 4,000. I've looked it up. It's not actually exactly 4,000. It's 3,943. But I don't know how important that is. you know If you say you've got 4,000, you don't actually have that many.
00:09:18
Tom Woolman
It might not be that important. um I'm sure that's what they were pushing for. um Yeah, and and I guess they are um taking an action against a number of parties. One is Avara Foods.
00:09:31
Tom Woolman
Another one is Freeman's of Newent is actually part of Avara Foods,
00:09:34
Tom Willings
Yeah, that's subsidiary. Yeah.
00:09:36
Tom Woolman
um and ah but also ah Water Company.
00:09:40
Tom Willings
The water company. Yeah.
00:09:42
Tom Woolman
Yeah, um I was trying to think of the exact water company then and I thought, you know what, I'm not sure. So let's say it's ah a the relevant water company for the area. um With a whole range of um yeah whole range of ah of different areas, some of it is linked to pollution levels in in the river and and runoff.
00:10:02
Tom Woolman
Interestingly, I saw one of the the ah the areas that they were pushing on were was trespass. They were suggesting that that um sewage or manure that was on the riverbed was trespassing on the riverbed.
00:10:13
Tom Woolman
We're quite interested to see how that that argument would unfold.
00:10:18
Tom Willings
I saw this, obviously saw all the same thing. It's an enormous story. It's been going on for an awfully long time. um it It has the potential to have ramifications in many, many ways, um um both in the area and and far beyond in in all sectors, really.
00:10:34
Tom Willings
um But the thing that struck me about the publicity that I saw in the last um you know few days was the link between um the poultry production, whoever it is that's directing operations there, and then the application of the manure on land.
00:10:52
Tom Willings
And and the what appeared to me, at least, again, trying to be careful about what I say, and but But it appeared, inferred, that that there was you know direction or control within the poultry side of that production process um into onto the the you know the arable
00:11:12
Tom Woolman
Mm-hmm.
00:11:16
Tom Willings
arable land and i um undoubtedly You know, there are some poultry producers that that are also growing crops or pasture that that ah that are using either their manure or somebody else's manure on their land. But in the vast majority of cases, it'd be complete dislocation between production of muck and An application of muck.
00:11:40
Tom Willings
And I thought, well, I'm going to be really interested to see how that argument plays out, because it's one thing to debate whether or not um the poultry value chain um does or does not shape what goes on on the poultry farm.
00:11:42
Tom Woolman
Yeah.
00:11:57
Tom Woolman
yeah
00:11:57
Tom Willings
um But it's quite another to leap to the the you know the subsequent application of the of the byproduct onto um onto to land. But that was just one, I guess that's one of, there's there's been a couple of other things in the in but milling around the
00:12:06
Tom Woolman
yeah
Red Tractor Ad Controversy
00:12:12
Tom Willings
airways.
00:12:12
Tom Willings
You see this Red Tractor advert that hasn't been aired for a couple of years now, but to do with the care taken around around the you production sponsored by or backed by, assured by Red Tractor.
00:12:26
Tom Willings
um ah apparently implying that that duty of care extends to the environment, not the the word environment appears in the in the advert and and that being deemed by the authorities to be you know not fit for airing and and yeah pulled.
00:12:45
Tom Willings
You see that?
00:12:45
Tom Woolman
which which is yeah Which is quite fascinating, really, because um because actually the advert itself didn't mention the environment at all.
00:12:54
Tom Willings
Hmm.
00:12:54
Tom Woolman
and It was talking about um red tractor farmers farming with care. And as you say, it was more sort of implied that farming with care um extends to the environment. But some as people will know, actually, red tractor in fairly recent times has... um Yeah, Red Tractor tried to launch an environmental scheme, didn't it?
00:13:14
Tom Willings
The green tractor, wasn't it
00:13:14
Tom Woolman
no Not, yeah, not too long ago. and um and
00:13:17
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:13:18
Tom Woolman
And the industry effectively effectively threw it out and, you know, and said that, look, Red Tractor does an excellent job focusing on some key areas, traceability, um animal welfare and, you know, and some other things around how how farms are ah ah run.
00:13:33
Tom Woolman
Yeah. we don't necessarily want it want it to cover everything. So almost the the you know the industry had had spoken and Red Tractor had spoken and said, okay, no, this you know this this um the scheme isn't isn't going to cover the environment.
00:13:46
Tom Woolman
um So it's it's quite amazing really how yeah how the how the argument was won. um But yes, interesting time for Red Tractor, isn't it? Because I think as a scheme that covers all sorts of different um agricultural products,
00:14:05
Tom Woolman
um from potatoes to chickens to beef. um Yeah, it's interesting to see how there are different tensions in different different sectors. And also, I think people think that um there are there are things that that crop up as more important in in other sectors. I think when it comes to poultry, people certainly zoom in on traceability and and obviously on welfare. that's That's a big part of of being a poultry farmer.
00:14:32
Tom Woolman
um If you're a potato farmer, potato welfare isn't really isn't really on the ah on the list.
00:14:37
Tom Willings
Give it time. Give it time. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure
Campaign Against Caging in Poultry Farming
00:14:41
Tom Willings
it's coming. But you you talk about poultry welfare. You see Compassion in World Farming ah drumming up um ah support for a ah parliamentary reception to to to to back their Stop the Cage Age um campaign.
00:14:52
Tom Woolman
yes
00:14:57
Tom Woolman
yes yeah um i'm i'm not i'm not you know i quite enjoy going to london and um and doing a bit of hobnobbing uh
00:14:58
Tom Willings
You going?
00:15:08
Tom Willings
getting your phone nicked.
00:15:10
Tom Woolman
Well, I did.
00:15:10
Tom Willings
Yeah. That's the thing.
00:15:12
Tom Woolman
Well, i yeah, I do. I have. them Yeah, I say that I last time I went to London about a year ago, um i did leave my phone in a taxi and it was recovered by the British Poultry Council. So.
00:15:23
Tom Woolman
um A big shout out to to Kerry Maxwell at the British Poultry Council who got me my phone back.
00:15:25
Tom Willings
but More effective than the Met on a. Yeah.
00:15:29
Tom Woolman
um Yeah, but I guess it's interesting, isn't it, as we get up towards 2026, that there is really still a lot of pressure and a pressure on politicians to put legislation in place that's going to outlaw Cage's politics.
00:15:41
Tom Willings
Yeah.
00:15:47
Tom Woolman
cages
00:15:47
Tom Willings
but Yeah, i think I think all of these things touch on something that um actually is relevant to my working week next week. You've got the Try Some Chicken um open event in in in Birmingham coming up.
00:16:03
Tom Willings
And really looking forward to following that. If you remember, we interviewed them on a previous episode. So if you haven't, anybody listened to this and and you haven't heard that episode, then um look on the website and and and go back because that's a really fascinating story.
00:16:18
Tom Willings
um yeah project that looks to how we balance the the social and economic needs with welfare and environmental needs and and and but you know how does that tension play out and I think perhaps all of these things that we've just talked about are part and parcel of that that very same conversation and someone said something to me in the last week um that Gives a distinction between what we say and what we do, you know, categorizes because we talk about the consumer, the consumer, the consumer, you know, what does the consumer want?
00:16:50
Tom Willings
And the this is my personal perspective that the consumer's choice, you know, is slow to... change We buy what we buy and we're really focused on value and on cost and and conscious of everything becoming ever more expensive.
00:17:02
Tom Woolman
Yeah. yep
00:17:05
Tom Willings
And, um you know, times are very, very tough and budget's tight for many, many people. I don't see that, frankly, ever.
Consumer Choices vs. Citizen Responsibilities
00:17:16
Tom Willings
changing and and yet from a um another perspective and this is the distinction a consumer makes those value orientated cost orientated choices but a citizen makes different choices makes different noises puts their hand up and says no i don't agree with this we need to change that and the same person is a citizen and ah and a consumer um but with a totally different
00:17:29
Tom Woolman
yeah
00:17:43
Tom Willings
perspective or behavior or expectation or any like well ah how how do we find a middle ground because of course that's not a tenable position you cannot say one thing and then live another choice you you know we need some consistency here if you've got any hope of actually making
00:17:56
Tom Woolman
Hmm and
00:18:02
Tom Willings
sensible reasoned choices about what we do and where we do it ultimately. and I think this is a try some chicken. um Well, the bit about the try some chicken work that I'm interested to to to see develop is, you know, ah where do we think we're going to get our food from and how do you think it's going to be produced? What are we all voting for? Because you tell us clearly what you want, we can do it, but it comes with the quid pro quo with balance, you know, in cost and Yeah.
00:18:32
Tom Woolman
Yeah.
00:18:32
Tom Willings
Sorry, I'm on soapbox there.
00:18:32
Tom Woolman
and
00:18:33
Tom Willings
going to But
00:18:34
Tom Woolman
No, that's all right. That's all right. you You're entitled to get onto your soapbox from time to time.
Role of Poultry Farming in Society
00:18:40
Tom Woolman
it' been great chatting you this afternoon, Tom, and I do hope that you your internet improves for the weekend so that you can... you can
00:18:47
Tom Willings
So my streaming services can be yeah uninterrupted. and i go back to my Netflix account.
00:18:51
Tom Woolman
Well, I was going to suggest that you might be watching Netflix, but you'll probably actually be out on your bike, won't you? Making the most of the of the daylight hours.
00:18:57
Tom Willings
Yeah, indeed. or Or just painting like Bileo. Yeah, I expect that's more like.
00:19:01
Tom Woolman
which you Which you also need daylight for. don't you know don't It's very dangerous painting a room or just using artificial light.
00:19:03
Tom Willings
Yeah, true, true.
00:19:08
Tom Willings
Yeah, true.
00:19:08
Tom Woolman
um But yeah, don't work too hard.
00:19:12
Tom Willings
Thank you. Well, enjoy your weekend. Everybody else, thank you for listening. And um yeah, we look forward welcoming you back soon, ah whether it's just Tom and I or work with a guest next time.
00:19:22
Tom Willings
But um yeah, do tune in.
00:19:23
Tom Woolman
Yeah. Until next time. Bye-bye.
00:19:26
Tom Willings
Thank you.