Transcript
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Charity CEO Podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders, with candid, meaningful conversations that really get beneath the surface of issues. This show aims to inspire, inform and deliver practical insights on the challenges facing charity leaders today, for the benefit of leaders across the sector and for those who care about the important work of charities.
Speaker: I'm your host, Divya O 'Connor, and each episode I will be interviewing a charity chief executive who will share with us their insights, knowledge, and expert opinion on a particular topic or area of expertise. We are back with Charlotte Hill. If you haven't yet heard part one of our conversation, download it now to hear Charlotte talk about the pandemic impact on children and young people, her journey with Step Up to Serve, and the achievements and challenges of the I Will campaign.
Speaker: In this episode, part two, Charlotte and I talk about the joys and the struggles of having babies whilst being busy chief executives, issues surrounding maternity leave, shared parental leave and around women transitioning back into the workplace.
Speaker: We reflect on how lockdown has shown everyone in a much more human light having to juggle work, children, self -care and in Charlotte's case even breastfeeding. Charlotte reveals her personal challenges with fertility and how sharing this vulnerability openly with her team made her more relatable and effective as a leader. So let's pick up the conversation with Charlotte where we left it at the end of part one.
Speaker: Yes, small things and indeed small people are incredibly precious. And on that note, Charlotte, I'm going to move us on to talk about something a little bit different that I know is close to both of our hearts and that is babies.
Speaker: So you and I were both pregnant at the same time. We were. Yes, whilst in active CEO positions and I know that's something that is not very commonly seen. You've obviously gone back to work now and I am on a bit of an extended maternity break whilst I seek out my next chief exec role. So first off, Charlotte, how has it been for you being in lockdown with two small children and
Speaker: working from home at the same time. I know your little boy is just a month younger than my little girl who is one and a bit now. And you've got two little ones. Yeah, so Alfie was seven months when I came back and Libby was, yeah, two, two and a half. So, yeah, and now, yeah, one and
Speaker: two and three quarters so yes I have to first of all say though it is not as bad as it sounds because my other half we were doing shared parental leave so I came back as he then went on to paternity leave so I have not been at home trying to do a full -on job looking after two children alone I have got my husband here so it's not quite the paternity leave he thought he was signing up for because he obviously didn't have
Speaker: you know, both children were at home, there were no classes, there was nothing, it was just here. So it's been quite challenging having them both here all the time. But yeah, as you say, you've got to find some silver linings. And part of the silver lining I guess for me was that I haven't missed a bath or bedtime with Alfie. And I missed loads with Libby when I went back. So I went back at the seven months with her as well. And so the transition back has been tougher this time because I'm just here. But
Speaker: It has had the benefits of I still can do mealtimes with them and I can still stop working time to do bath in bed even if I then go back and do some work afterwards. I'm able to kind of have dinner with them and things so there are some positives but yeah I also spend a lot of time with headphones on
Speaker: hoping people can't hear the screaming that's happening in my house. And at first, particularly when he was quite small, I carried on breastfeeding because I was still here. So I would often be on Zoom calls with a baby on my boob whilst carrying on with my day job. People, as everyone was at the beginning of lockdown, have been incredibly understanding if there's been a toddler or a baby on my lap whilst we've been doing meetings because everyone's been kind of, you know, a lot of people have had different things going on
Speaker: It's been full on, but I think it's been full on for everyone. Yes, I know. I am reminded of that clip of the gentleman on the BBC News and the two little kids sort of open the door and came in and he was so sort of flummoxed by it. And now it just seems to be the norm. It happens all the time. Isn't it funny? Because when that happened, it was like headlines everywhere. It was a really massive like internet sensation, wasn't it? And now it's like that's just a very normal everyday occurrence.
Speaker: Yeah, and I've seen some brilliant clips, actually, where whoever the interview is suddenly engages the child in the conversation. Yeah. And it's just brilliant. I have had many, many a meeting where one of my children has been part of the meeting. And, you know, they've often improved the meeting. So it's quite nice, I think sometimes having a baby in a meeting, it makes people just sort of relax a bit, doesn't it?
Speaker: I know, and I think when you reflect as a female CEO, it was certainly really important to me to try and be a role model for other women in the sector and indeed for any organization that I was leading. And this is one of the reasons, Charlotte, I was so keen to get you on this podcast so that we could explore this topic. So when I was chief exec at Children with Cancer UK, I was very strict about leaving the office at 4 .30 so that I could pick up my son from nursery.
Speaker: and i was very open about it everybody knew i had a wonderful ea who would ensure that no meetings were put in my diary beyond four o 'clock so i wouldn't get delayed heading out the door and then i would often pick up emails in the evening and so it was that flexibility element that to me it was very important to demonstrate that
Speaker: you can balance having a successful career with a rewarding family life. And it's great. I think one of the great things about lockdown has actually shown everybody in a much more human light with lots of personal issues that we need to juggle and still being focused in and getting the job done.
Speaker: But I'm curious, Charlotte, tell me a bit more about your shared parental leave experience, because I know when this was brought in a few years ago, it was really lauded as such a positive measure by government, which it absolutely is. But according to research done by the TUC union, in 2019, only 1 % of parents who are eligible for shared parental leave actually took it up.
Speaker: And I'd like to ask you why you think the take up is so low and how did you and your husband find the whole process? First of all, it has been the most brilliant thing to have done. And we were really lucky to be able to make it work. And I totally recognize that.
Speaker: It just depends on your family setup, what you can make work financially and what you can make work with both employers of both people and what also you're both up for doing because some people don't particularly want to share their parental leave. The woman might not want to share it. She might want to stay home.
Speaker: the man might not want to share it, or vice versa, you know, however it is. So there's all sorts of different reasons why it might or might not work. But we have absolutely loved it. So we've done it with both our kids. We've done six months each of that because you can split your year. And then I've always taken some holiday as well. So I actually don't go back. So we have a kind of a what we call the handover between the two of us where I kind of have three weeks, three to four weeks off.
Speaker: after I've officially gone back, I take some annual leave whilst Dave started. So we have a kind of a handover period, but it's been great. It means that I've been able to go back to work after kind of seven months since having them. And Dave has taken over and then gone on through and actually he's had the six months shared parental leave. And then he's also taken some additional sort of leave as well, unpaid leave. So he's had a really good chunk of time off with both kids.
Speaker: So we're fortunate because he's a primary school teacher. Primary schools are really set up for people to go on maternity leave or paternity leave. So they're very open to the idea that you would take, you know, you would take your shared parental leave. It's completely set up to be able to do it. It is really depressing that the take up is so low. I really hope we'll start to see it increasing. But as I say, there's all there's all sorts of reasons why some people can't manage it. We are in the position that I earn a good income so we could afford to
Speaker: kind of split it between the two of us and it actually worked well for me to go back to work and go back onto a full salary. If anyone's considering it and isn't sure, I would hugely recommend it. I love the fact that we have really shared the early, that you know that first year with our children we shared equally has been amazing.
Speaker: Yes, we were fortunate as well that my husband runs his own business so he works from home and so actually with both our kids they've had both of us sort of around for that first year which is so magical and really crucial for their development as well.
Speaker: Yeah, and also because my husband's a primary school teacher, he's actually like better at it than I am. He's really like, well, he is, as particularly as they get older, he's like very child focused and very good at thinking about all of their, you know, development goals and things because it's, you know, he's trained in so much of that. So yeah, it's also great just having his expertise. That's excellent. Brilliant. I hope you've told him that.
Speaker: You know what I do all the time? He is, yeah, he's an amazing dad. We're really lucky. He's great. Brilliant. So, Charlotte, I've been reflecting for a little while and I know that there are probably not many female chief execs who choose to go off and have a baby at that stage of their career like you and I have done.
Speaker: However, I think regardless of whatever level you're at in your job when you do have a baby, it still feels like maternity leave remains quite a difficult issue to navigate.
Speaker: And I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that women have been having babies since the beginning of time. So in this day and age, why is it still such a tricky issue for employers and indeed for parents? And yes, of course, there are some organizations and employers that sort of handle the whole process a lot better than others, but it still feels that it's a bit of a minefield to navigate. So I'm interested to hear your views on this and reflections.
Speaker: I think you're right. I think there are some employers who do it really, really well. And there are some employers who don't. And it's really a hit and miss. And I think that's true across sectors. I think there are some voluntary sector organisations who I think people would assume would be great at it because of, you know, what they do. And actually, they're not, you know, they're surprisingly bad at it. And similarly, you know, there are some businesses who are amazing at it and others who are terrible. So I think, yeah, unfortunately, it's still really, it's really varied. Some of that I guess is around how
Speaker: Well, someone is backfilled and there are still so many organizations that I speak to where they don't completely backfill a person who goes off on maternity leave. So the rest of the team feel incredibly stretched because someone's gone off and they haven't, you know, maybe for financial reasons, they haven't been completely covered. And I understand why sometimes these things happen, but it leaves strain on the organization. There's other times where I think
Speaker: people are really nervous about senior people going off on maternity leave and then potentially not coming back or particularly trustee boards who have volunteers themselves can be quite nervous about people going off. But it's really varied. I was incredibly fortunate at Step Up to Serve that for both times my board had been amazing, absolutely amazing. And as I said, had an absolutely phenomenal deputy, my deputy chief executive, who stepped up both times when I was on maternity leave.
Speaker: is incredible. So it's been a very fortunate thing, I think, to have someone cover my maternity leave the same person twice, because it's, you know, incredibly reassuring for the organisation, for everyone involved, for all the partners, for our funders, you know, all of those key relationships. But it's something we've got to get better at. And the bit for me, I think we've also got to get better at is how we support women back to work after maternity leave. You know, I'm a
Speaker: confident person but even I have found coming back into the workplace both times actually I found it quite challenging I think you're because you've been away and you've been quite isolated and you know all sorts of different reasons your confidence has taken a bit of a knock
Speaker: And so it's quite hard to step back into work after whatever the period is that you've been off having your children. That kind of reentry, no matter how confident you are, no matter how great your organization is, is quite tough. And it's not just because you're tired and you're having sleepless nights and you're having to leave your children and all those things. It's also just that confidence of stepping back into the workplace. And I just think there's something more we all need to do around how we support
Speaker: mums going back to work, you know, at whatever level they're going back in. It's still a really, really tough time transitioning back in. Yes, I know the first time that I went back after having my son, I was a little bit nervous going back four days a week. And what I ended up doing was going back full time, but using some of my accumulated leave to take a day off a week, which worked well.
Speaker: And the nervousness came around trying to cram essentially a full -time job, which requires five days into four days. And sometimes I think when women come back to work, the part -time option is offered, but not enough is thought about how would that work in practice, given work clothes, given meetings.
Speaker: And what happened with me was I just couldn't keep that one day off a week, sort of sacrosanct and we'd have other meetings that came in. It meant that I had to shift things, but I didn't actually have him going to nursery that one day. So then there's all of these childcare issues that gets thrown up. And in the end, after about three or four months, I went back full time.
Speaker: Yeah, I think it's an incredibly common thing, isn't it? The trying to juggle. I see so many people trying to do it, trying to juggle what is effectively a full -time job into compressed hours or part -time or desperately trying to keep certain times sort of sacred. And yeah, it's incredibly challenging. And particularly now, I think, actually, that the world of work and home have kind of merged into one. Even though you'd think it would mean that your work -life balance would be better, I sometimes think it's
Speaker: it's harder to keep the divide because you're not only working from home, you're living at work. So it's kind of a weird thing to get your head around that you're effectively living at work all the time. So keeping the boundaries, I think, between work and home now is really even harder to do. Well, certainly for me, and maybe some other people have got this totally nailed, but yeah, what was already a bit of a porous barrier between home and work has now become almost
Speaker: kind of non -existent because it's all just one place. But yeah, I think it's really, really tricky that kind of how do you get the balance between going back wanting to feel like you're doing a great job wanting to feel like you're being a great parent and then never mind all the rest of it. You know, there's no chance for you to do anything for yourself or you know, all of those other things because you're so focused on just trying to at least keep those two things going. It's really tricky time.
Speaker: Yes, I was just going to ask you actually whether it's been different this time going back into work given that you're at home, but I think you've just sort of articulated the merge there. Yeah, it has been definitely very different. Also, I was so ready to put on a nice pair of high heels and a new handbag and a lovely dress and lipstick and hop out the door and not see my children for a few hours.
Speaker: I actually bought a new handbag, but it's still in my pocket. Yeah, same here. Literally same here. So just before lockdown, I had started to think, right, I'm going to start getting to wear clothes that don't mean I have to get my boobs out all the time. And I can look nice and I can not have baby sick on me. And all of those things have not happened because I am still covered in baby sick and I carried on breastfeeding because I wasn't leaving the house.
Speaker: And I didn't get to put my nice heels on because nobody actually sees the bottom half of my body because I'm just on Zoom calls. And so loads of those things, which I really enjoyed that lovely kind of freedom you get when you go back from maternity leave of like doing some stuff that's just for you. I feel like I just haven't got to do at all this time. I'm craving for the time when I can like go back out and have a, yeah, have a normal experience of commuting to work again.
Speaker: Well, I must admit I don't miss commuting. Oh, God, I really do. Oh, my God. Was it the time you would read and listen to podcasts like this one? Exactly. And time for a bit of reflection. I think the thing I really miss at the moment is normally you would have some journey time between meetings or whatever it is, you know, or going to work or coming home from work where you switch off from being mum and that time on the train
Speaker: you switch into and you get your head into the working day and you look at what's coming up in the day ahead and all of those things. Now, the transition between me being a mum and me being at work is walking through this door and it's like a second. There's no journey time between meetings because they're all just here. So just missing that reflection time and that time to think about what you've just been hearing or what you've just been doing and also just some movements. I just miss moving.
Speaker: just walking and I know it's all these things isn't it that you think oh yes I could build it into my day but actually when you're trying to juggle two kids and also do a really busy job I don't know I just find it really hard to build in the fact I'm gonna go for a walk every day just maybe I should be better at it but I just don't manage it
Speaker: So I think this is an interesting point, Charlotte, in terms of just mental wellbeing and how you really need to have sort of good support systems and structures in place. And how have you found dealing with personal challenges has affected you as a leader or affected how you have coped with different situations, both positively and negatively?
Speaker: It's funny, isn't it? Because I think I became a chief executive pretty young age. So I was 30 when I became chief executive at UK Youth. And I think at that time, I thought that you had to just be this amazing, resilient, cheerleader kind of leader who didn't show, you know, if you were having any personal issues or whatever, you didn't show them to the outside world, you were always cheerful, you were always on. And I guess over time, what I've realised is your personal challenges are
Speaker: as a greater way of learning but also a greater way of connecting to other people as anything else and showing your vulnerability and sharing when you're struggling is actually a really great way to give other people permission to share when they're struggling and for you to I think be a I don't know a much more relatable leader
Speaker: I did IVF to have both my kids and so all the time I've been a chief exec I've always been doing either either doing IVF or pregnant or having a baby it took us nine rounds of IVF to have our two kids and so all through my 30s as a chief exec at UK Youth and Step Up to Serve I was doing IVF and interestingly for my first kind of three rounds I didn't tell anyone at work like I didn't tell my board I didn't tell anyone I only told my PA because
Speaker: she basically had to know because I was going off to hospital appointments all the time. And so she could kind of help make sure my diary worked. And it was really funny because I kind of felt like I had to keep it to myself.
Speaker: And I can't remember exactly what the turning point was, but there was a certain point where I just thought, this is crazy, you know, I'm having to be in the clinic or in the hospital so often I can't keep this from people. It felt dishonest by a certain point. And actually it was a huge turning point in my team because I just decided in one of our team days that I would just be really honest with them and tell them exactly what happened and be really vulnerable and just say,
Speaker: you know, this is where I am and this is what I'm struggling with and this is why on some days actually I just feel like the last thing I want to do is come into work. And it was amazing, like so many members of the team opened up about so many different challenges in a way that I just don't think they would have done otherwise. So it's been
Speaker: actually a really great learning for me that you can still be a leader and be yourself and be strong and be all those things, but also show vulnerability. And it also made me realize as soon as I started talking about it a bit more openly, so many other women, whether they were chief execs or senior people or whatever, you know, because I'd lost a couple of babies as well. They talked really openly about their miscarriages or they talked really openly about their struggles with fertility, or they talked really openly about doing IVF in a way, and lots of people said they kept it secret.
Speaker: And there's just something I think about, you know, us as leaders being honest and open about the fact that actually there's lots of that, you know, there are people out there struggling with these things and it's fine to talk about it. But also, I think making people realize that you can be a chief exec and be doing these things and still be good at your job. And, you know, you shouldn't say no to opportunities just because you think, oh, no, I can't do this at the same time as doing this because you can.
Speaker: Yes, it's blooming hard work, but you can do it. So there's lots of those kind of personal challenges where I think so feel capable and able to deal with almost anything at work because my resilience is so high because I've been through lots of things at home. But actually I think it's been great for me in terms of kind of work because it's been great for my resilience and it's been great for all sorts of things. Not great for us at the time at home, but yeah, I've tried to try and take the positives out of it.
Speaker: Yes, it's so interesting hearing your story, Charlotte, and so many chief executives who I've spoken to recently, particularly during this crisis, have really echoed that sentiment in that they have shared when they were struggling and when they have felt
Speaker: it was quite difficult to cope and actually being open honest and sort of vulnerable or an authentic if you like has really helped bring their team closer together and made them more effective as an organization and working collaboratively. So that's great to hear. Yeah, I think it's so true. And if I think about the chief execs who I really admire, they are the chief execs who wear their heart on their sleeve and are open and
Speaker: honest and themselves. They are them. I hate the phrase them, they're authentic selves, but they are. They're themselves, no matter where you see them and no matter who they're talking to, they are themselves. So yeah, I think there's something really important in that.
Speaker: Yes. And I think it's a great message as well for women in terms of not putting barriers in front of yourself in terms of becoming a leader. And you're right. There's so many women who go through these things and it's very normal. It's very natural. And yet there's a tendency to sort of hide it or keep it quiet or feel that you might be judged. Yeah.
Speaker: And I think as certainly as leaders in this sector and across the board, we should really be encouraging a lot more women to speak up about it and indeed go for opportunities and not feel held back by any of this. I always reflect to young women who are arming and erring about whether they should apply for a promotion or a new job or whatever. So when I was 29 and applied for the
Speaker: Chief Exec at Step Up to Serve job. I literally just got married and we were going to try and start having children quite soon. And there was a big part of me that thought maybe I shouldn't be going for this Chief Exec job because what if I get pregnant and I've only just taken on the job and all those things.
Speaker: For the entire time I was at UK Youth, for the kind of five years basically, we were trying to have a baby and I didn't manage to. So if I'd just put off going for that job because I thought I was about to have a baby, actually I would have been waiting for another five years to apply for a job. And then actually I'd applied or gone and
Speaker: run Step Up To Serve and gone into that before and at that point I remember thinking maybe I shouldn't be going for this job, maybe I shouldn't be going to set up a new organisation because we're still trying to have a baby and actually it just shows you that if you put on hold what could you think that you might be about to have a baby or whatever, actually you can be waiting for a very long time for the right time to take on a new job or to take on a new challenge so I think there's always a reason not to do something but I think
Speaker: It's usually just, I think just go for it, grab the opportunity, know that no matter what happens, you'll find a way to make it work because otherwise you can keep putting things off and not knowing what's around the corner. So yeah, I always say just go for it, grab the opportunity when it presents itself. Yes, I think that's a great message for all the young women and indeed young men out there in terms of just be brave and go for it. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker: Charlotte, before I can let you go, there is something that I absolutely have to ask you about because I think it's just such an incredible achievement and such an honor. And it's the OB. Oh God. I wonder what you were going to say then.
Speaker: The OBE. So you received the award in the 2020 New Year's Honours List for services to young people. And I'm really curious to hear about it. I mean, how did you feel to receive that phone call or that letter from Buckingham Palace? I was in actual shock. So I had not long had my baby. I'd gone on maternity leave and had Alfie in the September. I think I got the letter in, I can't remember, the October or November.
Speaker: saying that i was going to be getting it in the new year's honors so i was little in that slight baby fog and so at first i remember being a bit like this can't be this can't be a real thing so yeah it was very strange because i was also not at work and i was in that slightly strange baby fog i hadn't and yeah it just it all seemed a bit surreal ah also yeah just
Speaker: very grown up thing to happen, isn't it? To get an OBE. It was very odd, but very lovely. I still haven't actually gone and collected it because of Covid.
Speaker: I was just going to ask which world presented it to you at the industry, but you haven't had your ceremony. I haven't, I have not had it. So they've put them on hold due to COVID. So I was due to be going not long actually after lockdown came in, but they said they're going to do them all once, you know, once they can, they will do them again. So yeah, I've not had it yet. But it will happen at some stage. There's bigger things in the world at the moment.
Speaker: Indeed. And then you can get your high heels on on your best dress in your new handbag. Yes, I know. Have a great day out. And actually, I won't, I would have been still breastfeeding if I'd done it at the original time. So my
Speaker: The kind of thing that I keep thinking is the silver lining to it being delayed is that I can properly leave my baby at home and go and have like a fun day celebrating and a couple of glasses of champagne rather than be thinking, oh, I've got to rush back and feed the baby. So there is a silver lining to it being delayed. I know. And so many more wardrobe options as well now. Exactly. More wardrobe options. Hopefully, you know, I'll not be quite such, you know, have so much baby fat. So, yeah, all good.
Speaker: So Charlotte, looking back then from where you are today, OBE to lovely little kids, all of the struggles that you went through with the IVF, all of the brilliant journey with Step Up to Serve and everything that's achieved, what advice would you give yourself on day one of first becoming a CEO? Day one, I mean, in many ways,
Speaker: I'm quite pleased I didn't know what I didn't know, because I'm not sure if I'd have taken the job, because I had so much to learn. And in a way, too much was almost the best way, because I learned in a fearless way, because I was only 30. And yeah, I just kind of grabbed it by the scruff of its neck and went for it. I think I would say to 30 -year -old Charlotte, follow your instinct.
Speaker: your instincts are telling you that you need to do something. Don't put it on hold, but take the difficult decisions early. I think there were some things as a first time chief exec where
Speaker: I knew instinctively that there were some difficult things I needed to do, and I put them off, partly through lack of experience, through lack of confidence, through not being sure, through thinking, oh, no, I should give it a bit longer. And actually, with hindsight, my instincts were right, and I should have followed those instincts sooner.
Speaker: think just something about having courage in your convictions but also courage to follow through and do difficult things and don't put them off with price I'd give to myself. I love that and I think be fearless is the message that I would certainly give our children and the younger generation today. Yeah well at the moment my children are a little bit too fearless. I'm just thinking my son
Speaker: got a massive egg on his head from having fallen down the stairs. At the age of one and two, they do not know fear in any way. But no, you're right. They should keep some of that fearlessness. Indeed. Charlotte, it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you today. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm hoping that we can see each other face to face at some stage soon and get our kids to meet each other.
Speaker: having seen you last when we were both really heavily pregnant and yeah it would be really lovely to be able to meet up again. Yes I know and have meetings not virtual not on skype and zoom. Exactly it will happen it will happen and well done for doing these podcasts I think it's amazing. Oh thank you. Brilliant well done. Thanks Charlotte.
Speaker: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Charlotte Hill. It was such fun to talk about babies and handbags, whilst also shining a much needed spotlight on more serious issues around maternity leave and barriers to leadership for women. I loved Charlotte's openness and honesty about her struggles to conceive and agree that being vulnerable can actually make us stronger and more respected as leaders. Look out for more leadership conversations on the Charity CEO podcast to be released over the next few weeks.
Speaker: Meanwhile, if you enjoyed the show, please click the subscribe button on your podcast app and consider leaving us a five -star review. It will only take a few seconds and reviews really help make a difference to increase the visibility of the podcast and help spread the word. Visit the charityceo .com website for full show details and to submit questions for future guests. Thank you for listening.
