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Ep 24. Darren Cormack, CEO Mines Advisory Group (MAG): Leadership by deliberate action
70 Plays3 years ago
“Be curious and communicate… Find the tension between reflection and action. (As a leader) you can equip yourself and you can develop in particular ways by deliberate action.”
Darren Cormack is Chief Executive of the Mines Advisory Group, also known as MAG International.
Since its establishment in 1989, MAG has helped over 20 million people in more than 70 countries, rebuild their lives and livelihoods after war. This global humanitarian and advocacy organisation works to find and remove lethal landmines and unexploded bombs in place affected by conflict.
With over 5,000 staff across 26 countries, Darren shares his experiences stepping up to take the top job at the height of the pandemic in May 2020. He provides insights on lessons learned and practical examples of how he is steering MAG and its people, to thrive in a changing environment.
Darren also talks about the importance and relevance of MAG’s work in a changing global context, and how even today, at least 15 people are killed or injured by landmines every single day.
Recorded August 2021.
Guest Biography
Darren Cormack is the CEO of the Mines Advisory Group (MAG), a global humanitarian, development and campaigning charity. Darren joined MAG in 2008 and prior to taking over as CEO, Darren was the Director of Strategy and Government Relations, responsible for the design, articulation and delivery of MAG’s organisational funding strategy.
Darren holds a first class Masters degree in International Management from the University of Lancaster Management School and is an experienced Non-Executive Director. Before he joined MAG, Darren worked in the private and non-profit sectors in the UK and internationally, managing a range of environment, conservation, humanitarian and development projects. He has lived and worked in Cambodia, South Sudan, Sudan, the Philippines and Indonesia.
Links
https://www.maginternational.org/
This episode was sponsored by EdenTree Investment Management.
https://www.edentreeim.com/insights/edentree-sponsor-the-charity-ceo-podcast-season-3
Darren Cormack is Chief Executive of the Mines Advisory Group, also known as MAG International.
Since its establishment in 1989, MAG has helped over 20 million people in more than 70 countries, rebuild their lives and livelihoods after war. This global humanitarian and advocacy organisation works to find and remove lethal landmines and unexploded bombs in place affected by conflict.
With over 5,000 staff across 26 countries, Darren shares his experiences stepping up to take the top job at the height of the pandemic in May 2020. He provides insights on lessons learned and practical examples of how he is steering MAG and its people, to thrive in a changing environment.
Darren also talks about the importance and relevance of MAG’s work in a changing global context, and how even today, at least 15 people are killed or injured by landmines every single day.
Recorded August 2021.
Guest Biography
Darren Cormack is the CEO of the Mines Advisory Group (MAG), a global humanitarian, development and campaigning charity. Darren joined MAG in 2008 and prior to taking over as CEO, Darren was the Director of Strategy and Government Relations, responsible for the design, articulation and delivery of MAG’s organisational funding strategy.
Darren holds a first class Masters degree in International Management from the University of Lancaster Management School and is an experienced Non-Executive Director. Before he joined MAG, Darren worked in the private and non-profit sectors in the UK and internationally, managing a range of environment, conservation, humanitarian and development projects. He has lived and worked in Cambodia, South Sudan, Sudan, the Philippines and Indonesia.
Links
https://www.maginternational.org/
This episode was sponsored by EdenTree Investment Management.
https://www.edentreeim.com/insights/edentree-sponsor-the-charity-ceo-podcast-season-3
Recommended
Transcript
Balancing Reflection and Action in Leadership
00:00:00
Speaker
There are many different ways you can describe the importance of leadership but for me it's finding that sort of tension between reflection and action i think that's the holy grail ultimately is to look at what we're doing do it but also step back occasionally and say okay why so i've held on to those two kind of bookends if you like of leadership qualities of characteristics and then within that i would say.
00:00:20
Speaker
Just look at a post-it note. I keep it aside my monitor be curious and communicate You know, I think there are two things that are important and I put them on a post-it note at the side of my monitor because they're not necessarily I guess intuitive or inherent reactions I have so it's a reminder that if you system something at your side a little guidance that you can equip yourself You can develop in particular ways by deliberate actions
Surprise at Global Reach of the Podcast
00:00:53
Speaker
This is season three of the Charity CEO podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders.
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm Divya O'Connor, and I never imagined that this show that I started as an experiment during the pandemic would turn into a number one ranked global podcast with thousands of listeners all across the world. It is truly humbling to know that the show's content is valued by so many. And thanks to our Season 3 sponsor, Eden Tree, I will continue to bring you inspirational and engaging conversations with a host of leaders who are all truly driving change in the nonprofit space.
00:01:28
Speaker
Eden Tree themselves are owned by a charity and have led the way in responsible and sustainable investing for over three decades. Thank you to Eden Tree. Now, on with the show.
MAG International's Mission and Darren's Early Years
00:01:40
Speaker
My guest today is Darren Cormack, Chief Executive of the Mines Advisory Group, also known as MAG International. For over 30 years, this global humanitarian and advocacy organisation has been working to find and remove lethal land mines and unexploded bombs in places affected by conflict.
00:01:59
Speaker
Since its establishment in 1989, MAG has helped 20 million-plus people in over 70 countries rebuild their lives and livelihoods after war. Darren talks about the relevance of MAG's work in a changing global context and highlights that even today, at least 15 people are being killed or injured by landmines every single day. Darren also shares his personal experiences stepping up to take the helm as CEO during the pandemic
00:02:28
Speaker
and leading a global team of over 5,000 staff from his front room. I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Hi, Darren. Welcome to the show. Pleased to have you on today. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Yeah, likewise. Yeah, very much so. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. The tradition is to start the show with an ice break around. To that end, I have five questions for you. If you're ready, we can get started.
00:02:56
Speaker
Yep, sure. Let's give it a go. So question one, what was your first job? First job was a paper round. So I think when I was what, 13 or 14, I started on a seven day a week paper round mornings and afternoons. Did that for the mighty sum of, I think a pound a day, if that doesn't make me sound too old. So that was my first job and taught me a lot in various different ways, which I really appreciate now. At the time I felt like it was a bit of a slog on a cold wet morning.
00:03:25
Speaker
Excellent. Well, glad to hear you're working hard for your seven pounds a week. And to continue that train of thought, as a child, what did you dream of being when you grew up?
00:03:37
Speaker
I'm sure there were lots of things in various moments but one that stands out when your sort of boyhood dream was being a firefighter. I think there was that heroic aspect to it but my granddad who did a lot to raise me was a fireman part-time and obviously spent a lot of time hearing stories of him from no doubt somewhat embellished as years passed but as a firefighter so that stands out as something that I very much aspired to be as a boy thinking back. Excellent.
00:04:04
Speaker
And question three, and I think you know that this one is coming.
Professional Passion and Cultural Influence
00:04:08
Speaker
What would you say is your professional superpower? Oh, I don't know if I have an exclusive superpower in any way, apart from being somewhat tall, but it doesn't help me in this role particularly.
00:04:19
Speaker
I think a superpower in this role, if used effectively, is passion, is being passionate about what you do and applying that passion with as much authenticity as you can. I think being passionate hopefully is infectious to those around you. I think it thus creates energy. I think it creates that commitment and helps to influence culture. So very much look for people who are passionate about what we do in the organization in which we work. When bringing people in and when looking to commit myself, so yeah, passion would be the one
00:04:48
Speaker
I go with as a superpower that I think is important. Although I do like your one about being tall and being quite tall myself, I do think that is a superpower as well. I think it was more helpful on the basketball court back in the day than it is in sat talking into a Microsoft Teams meeting as we spend most of our time doing when one's height is less appreciated or less relevant, frankly. Indeed. Question four, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in the world right now, what would that be?
Empathy in Global Issues
00:05:17
Speaker
picking one thing is not an impossible, not least given how much is going on in the world right now. But I think as I step back, one of them is something around that appreciation of empathy, the appreciation of nuance. I think too often we're seeing the world characterized in almost quite binary terms, really, and obviously amplified through media, social media. But in reality, I think very few issues can be divided into two sides.
00:05:43
Speaker
and nuance is important. I think nuance is important in everyday decision making. So try to get that mantra of seeking first to understand in order to be understood. I think if we could take the time, step back, think about that principle and apply it into the context in which we work or the issues in which we're observing and like to pass comment, perhaps without full understanding. So I think kind of finding a way of making the world slightly more empathetic in that way would be how I'd use that wonder if I was given it.
00:06:11
Speaker
Yes, love a bit of Stephen Covey as well. And our final icebreaker question, if you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them?
Personal Reflections and Guidance
00:06:24
Speaker
The one question that I haven't thought about, but the one person would be, well, I guess to make it quite personal on this front, I never knew my father. He died when I was young, about four. So you get to a stage in life when you become a parent as well and you realize what the consequences are probably of facing one's mortality at that age. Yeah. I think a chance to sit down with him.
00:06:45
Speaker
I think therefore it'd be very difficult to ask one question, how's it going? What advice would you give to me? But having a series of questions and conversations would be a great way, I think, to spend some time with somebody who is no longer alive, but obviously had an influence on me in the few years that we were together. That would be the honest answer to that. Then it's probably all manner of statesmen and people of history that I would also love to bring to the table, but there's your one, I think for now.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yes, and as it is your dad, I'm sure we can allow you a few more questions rather than just one. Yeah, thanks. We appreciate it. There's a few on there.
Origins of MAG and Landmine Prevention
00:07:20
Speaker
So, Jaren, you are the chief executive of MAG, the Minds Advisory Group. And I'd like to start off by hearing about your organization and what it does. So tell us about the origin story of MAG and its vision and mission.
00:07:34
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. And it's an organization that has a proud history and a very relevant future and the Minds Advisory Group.
00:07:43
Speaker
To go way back very much to the start was founded really and quite pertinently in the context, the remnants of the conflict in Afghanistan, where our founder, a gentleman called Ray McGrath, who was supported thereafter by his brother Luke, saw firsthand the effects that conflict and the remnants of conflict was having on people, seeing the scourge of landmines
00:08:04
Speaker
in Afghanistan as a result of the conflict there 30 odd years ago. Recognizing that nothing from a humanitarian perspective was really being done about that. So it's from those origins that the organization developed and it was the passionate commitment of individuals who at that time saw a need to make changes really, to bring about and bring to the world's attention the plight of communities that were affected by conflict that had either recently or had long since passed.
00:08:33
Speaker
That same mantra really of serving communities who are affected by conflicts that they had nothing to do with directly, was not a fault of theirs, but are left with a devastating effect, whether it be the risks of injury, the risks of death.
00:08:49
Speaker
the prevention of development for livelihoods. All of those factors, which we saw, the organization saw firsthand there, characterized many countries and millions of people around the world. So that's how the organization was founded. And from those sort of humble, very passionate beginnings, have hopefully tried to sort of stick to many of those values. Since its findings then, Mag went on to
00:09:11
Speaker
play an active part in campaigning for the what was ultimately the mind ban treaty international humanitarian law development of policy positions which ultimately had a significant effect on the way that the world works mag then went on to be
00:09:27
Speaker
laureates of the nineteen ninety seven nobel peace prize for its efforts in bringing about the prevention through the ottawa treaty of the manufacturing of land mines and various commitments thereafter to rectify the effects that we're seeing so.
00:09:42
Speaker
from those humble beginnings from two brothers working from a small village in the lake district to where we are now which is an organization still dealing with the historic effects of conflict but an organization that's also adapting to reflect the new challenges that the world is presenting as a result of conflict whether it be new use of
00:10:03
Speaker
the way explosive ordnance is used, the new use of landmines, whether it be the way that armed conflict is also presenting new risks to communities as
Princess Diana's Influence on MAG
00:10:12
Speaker
well. So that's how we're founded. That's a very short take on how we've developed in that time and gone on to become an organization now working in 26 countries with around five, five and a half thousand staff and, you know, and passionately committed really to that mission that we started all those years ago.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yes, I can see that passion is definitely a strong thread through the work there. And I understand that Princess Diana was involved in the early days, and certainly I believe her influence was part of the signing of the mind band treaty that you mentioned there. How did her engagement impact the organization and its profile?
00:10:50
Speaker
Well, she did an enormous amount in her time, but particularly towards the end of her life, sadly, was in raising, bringing to sort of the awareness of the public the fact that this was not a forgotten and historic issue. There is that iconic image of her walking through minefields, cleared minefields in Angola, where that brought a huge amount of focus to the issue.
00:11:10
Speaker
to a context where the conflict had since passed, but those conflicts still remain, still threaten lives and livelihoods. I think it was that awareness that it brought out the public appeal that obviously she had as an individual, did a huge amount for the sector and a huge amount for those organizations working on the issue. That legacy continues. Those images continue to resonate. They continue to have that public effect and that was a major contribution and something that we as MAG and the contribution
00:11:40
Speaker
we make to the sector is to continue to champion and highlight the needs of communities to the public, to decision makers, to governments that 60 million people continue to be at risk as a result of landmines. Millions of people are at risk of the use of small arms and like weapons in conflicts and images and moments like that are really important to the journey that we're on.
00:12:02
Speaker
And talking about legacy, Prince Harry of course followed in his mother's footsteps and was involved in the Landmine Free 2025 campaign.
Global Landmine Eradication Campaign
00:12:12
Speaker
Can you tell us what that campaign is looking to achieve in the current context?
00:12:16
Speaker
So it was a campaign launch really as a result of collaboration and the attention he helped to bring back in 2018 at an event that we hosted in collaboration with our partners at the Halo Trust. And it was a great moment really to just again reinvigorate that sort of awareness of the needs of communities around the world affected by landmines. And ultimately we launched this vision of a landmine free 2025 which was
00:12:40
Speaker
you know an effort to draw attention to commitments that governments had already made through international humanitarian law and the adaptations of that to commit to a deadline a vision of a wall free of landmines by twenty twenty five and inevitably the scale of the problem the changes in the rises and new types of conflict mean that very much is an aspiration to which you know we're committed but
00:13:02
Speaker
As principal pragmatist we recognize it was a call to action which we'd love to see delivered on but recognize there are many challenges to that. Prince Harry who as I said did a lot and has continued to do a lot in different ways to highlight the needs of communities affected by landmines again brought that focus that renewed energy that we have a sector of sorts of harness in drawing the world's attention to communities that are impacted.
00:13:26
Speaker
It's incredible when you think of the current state of affairs, particularly in Afghanistan. We've just had news this week that the Taliban have taken over there, that conflict still reigns supreme in some ways across so many communities. And therefore the issue of land mines, mine devices is as relevant in current day as it was 30 years ago when MAG was started. And I know that there was a recent BBC documentary featuring a young
00:13:53
Speaker
Yazidi woman working with yourselves in Iraq to help clear the IEDs laid there by ISIS. And I'm interested to hear, Darren, whether you think that the issue has changed over the years and if indeed it has in the current global context, if you could give us your thoughts and views on
Adapting to New Conflicts
00:14:16
Speaker
that.
00:14:16
Speaker
It certainly hasn't. The legacies of conflict long since passed remain, no question. So you quite rightly raised, particularly given the week in which we're recording this, the events we're seeing unfold in Afghanistan, a country probably one of the most effective countries in the world by the legacy of conflicts from 30 years ago.
00:14:35
Speaker
And that reminds us in contexts like Afghanistan or Laos and Southeast Asia, which since the end of the Vietnam War remains one of the most contaminated countries in the world when it comes to the effects of conflict. You still got that historic issue in many countries, a historic issue where relentless focus and funding is required in order to realize that vision of communities being safe, being
00:15:00
Speaker
Able to prosper being able to use land which can enable and sustain economic developments in the poorest countries in the world but then we're also seeing particularly across context like the Middle East and the Sahel region and parts of you know, Eastern Africa we're seeing the changing nature of conflicts asymmetric forms of conflicts rises in types of conflict around insurgency and the urbanization of conflicts and they present different challenges challenges that
00:15:27
Speaker
require adaptations and innovation and how one works changes in an operating environments but again it still presents ultimately risks of victim activated improvise lumb mines however they're characterized to communities communities who are trying to collect firewood because.
00:15:45
Speaker
But they're more at risk because they've been displaced by conflict into a new area they're less familiar with. Children go off to explore, collect firewood from camps in which they have been displaced too. And so there are new types of risks that people in communities are
00:16:00
Speaker
of a changing nature of conflict. So MAG is positioning itself, same respect to the Sahel in West Africa, where we're working in a number of countries to provide different types of risk education, different types of partnerships in order to bring about the prevention of conflict in certain contexts, but also to help communities who are unfamiliar with the risks in which the
00:16:22
Speaker
now facing with the awareness that they need. So yeah, that's how it's becoming a very current issue. I think as we look forward a bit further, we're seeing as conflict develops the need to equip communities in different ways. So two or three months ago, we saw an unplanned explosion in Equatorial Guinea in Africa, and MAG was able to develop remote risk education tools that were used on social media to target communities in a certain radius of a blast site which had
00:16:51
Speaker
thrown out an exploded ordinance which was a risk to people and just being able to develop without ever actually putting people on the ground, given the logistical challenges at the time, tools and mechanisms to help communities again, shows that how risks are changing potentially, but also how new programming and innovation develops in respect to those changes as well. So they're just some of the things that we're starting to think through as an organization as the world around us continues to throw up new challenges, shall we say.
00:17:18
Speaker
Yes, it's really interesting to hear those examples of the adaptations that MAG is putting in place in order to deal with the changing nature of conflict, but keeping the awareness of the needs of the communities at the heart of what you do.
Lessons in Leadership During the Pandemic
00:17:32
Speaker
And talking about the current context, obviously, Darren, with 5,000 staff, as you mentioned, across 25 countries in the world, undoubtedly the pandemic must have had a massive impact on the organisations and your programme delivery.
00:17:47
Speaker
I'd like to explore with you perhaps how you as an organization and more broadly charity leaders can emerge from the pandemic in a way that really enables organizations to thrive in a new environment, taking on board these new challenges and changing nature of the environment around us, as well as new working practices and expectations internally in terms of staff and engagement with stakeholders.
00:18:15
Speaker
And specifically, Darren, I know that you took over as Chief Executive of MAG during the pandemic, which must have been some challenge indeed. And I'd like to ask what are some of the lessons that you perhaps have learned over the last year?
00:18:30
Speaker
Thankfully, I was not unfamiliar with MAG. I've been with MAG for 12 or 13 years. I took over as CEO in May, so we were four or five weeks into the real effects of the pandemic. There was still a huge amount of uncertainty, really, from what is the world going to look like as a result of
00:18:47
Speaker
you know the unknowns that we were facing ultimately and it's easy to forget quite how uncertain things were back in that point in time last year. I mean in terms of the broad lessons learned to characterize that and then happy to cancel the most specifics but i think communicating authentically really about.
00:19:05
Speaker
where we're at as an organization was critical so interestingly part of our ability to build a platform where we communicate widely across the organization was enabled by that transition that had to happen to virtual ways of working so we had spurred by the pandemic needs to communicate more widely.
00:19:24
Speaker
taking over very much committed to ensuring open, regular, authentic communication about where the organization was at as a result of the risks that were being generated through COVID. It took a principle really in that respect to say to staff in many different ways through weekly staff meetings and videos to staff at the end of the week and open letters to staff that,
00:19:47
Speaker
We will tell you what's going on. If we don't tell you what's going on, it's because either we don't know or we can't tell you. If we can't tell you, there'll be a really good reason we can't tell you. That's sometimes just life, but ultimately, there'll be a commitment to authentic, transparent leadership and communication. If there are unknowns, you know that we equally don't know what the answers are in that respect. I think people, I hope, recognize that there was a commitment and a real shift to building a collaborative,
00:20:16
Speaker
culture based on effective internal communication throughout the pandemic but also one that we intend to sustain to answer the question about what have we learned it's about the critical importance of communication and harnessing technology in a way that enables us.
00:20:32
Speaker
I think the second point, though, was to also recognize that MAG as a global organization, how I, I guess, as CEO in the context of this podcast, was experiencing COVID, sat in suburban South Manchester, and whilst there was a lot of change happening for me, that was just I couldn't let a perspective be too informed by that local context and understanding that what was happening
00:21:00
Speaker
It might not be how it felt in southeast asia or southern africa or latin america and equally now as we're in a situation where.
00:21:09
Speaker
It's a slightly more linear, positively linear, I guess, movement in how we're coming out of COVID in the UK that isn't the same in other countries as a result of vaccine rollout issues, as a result of the spread of the Delta variant. Again, continuing to put oneself in another person's shoes to see how must it feel if you are locked down again in Phnom Penh or wherever you might be around the world that it will feel very different and taking that into account in how the organization communicates has always been critical.
00:21:38
Speaker
push to kind of not be too informed by that close proximity really of how COVID felt was really key I think to me staying the course in some of the commitments that we've made as an organisation.
Pandemic Principles: Care, Mission, Sustainability
00:21:50
Speaker
And looking back on the past 12 months or so Darren and given what you now know, might you have done anything differently at the beginning of the pandemic?
00:21:58
Speaker
I don't know really, I think it's easy in hindsight to say either done X or Y differently. But the reality is that there were so many people facing that same unknowns and no one had been here before and several generations were facing a global pandemic in that issue. So I think in respect to how we handle COVID, I think I'm very proud of how the organization responded, the tenacity to sort of stay the course.
00:22:24
Speaker
We set three principles really, I guess, in responding to the COVID pandemic. One was ensuring the duty of care for staff. First and foremost, we are charged with the responsibility of protecting our staff and ensuring that they are safe, accounted for, supported was the first commitment. I'm sure there might be moments of exception, but ultimately took decisions based on ensuring that duty of care first and foremost.
00:22:50
Speaker
But the second was then getting back to focusing on the communities who we are responsible for serving, people affected by conflict, people who need our help, for whom we have accumulated 30 years of experience to assist, so staying focused and staying mission focused on
00:23:06
Speaker
communities was a second principle and one that we sought to live out and getting back to work as quickly and as safely and as innovatively as possible in respect to adapting to how COVID was affecting communities and the ways of working. Thirdly, was then building a more sustainable MAG, was ensuring that whatever the decisions we were taking now would not be short-term. That continues to characterize the decisions we're making on ways of working.
00:23:33
Speaker
It's easy to set out policies now as we are at this point in the year, but have tried to not rush really in terms of that return to work issue or whatever it might be for at least UK staff to let that dominate too much of our thinking. There are some of the things that we tried to do in response and as broad principles, maybe there's bits and pieces who might have done differently, but as broad principles, I felt like they have stayed the course and have been effective ultimately in responding to the pandemic.
00:24:01
Speaker
I think as leaders of organizations, part of our role and indeed the challenge in many ways is the need to take decisions based on imperfect information. And I like how you've laid out essentially those principles that give you a framework for making those decisions in terms of duty of care, staying mission focused and building a more sustainable organization longer term.
Aligning Values with Strategies
00:24:26
Speaker
And talking to that third principle there, Darren, I saw that you had recently written a blog for civil society in which you talk about wanting MAG to be a more values-driven organization. Can you tell us a bit more about what that means for you?
00:24:41
Speaker
Just after this, I'm straight into a two-hour workshop on that as part of the process of reviewing our values. This was one of the commitments that I made on day one in taking over. That's the first morning I did a live address to staff and then recorded piece for staff and wrote to staff, just really trying to outline three things I wanted to do in taking over as CEO, wanted Maggie to focus on. One was staying mission-focused, which characterized our COVID response, but we should characterize everything we do.
00:25:11
Speaker
But that needed to be supported by a clearer strategy. So we undertook a mid-term review of strategy that we completed the end of last year. The second was being more values driven as an organization. And the third was then building a culture of collaboration that our full potential would be realized by building a culture of collaboration within the organization, aided through effective internal communications.
00:25:35
Speaker
To that second point on values, I've been in MAG a long time and I know almost the intangible things that I guess I'm in love with in the organization. I'm passionate about that represent MAG at its best, but they weren't necessarily reconcilable with the six values that were written in a strategy maybe five years ago and they weren't really brought to life with frameworks that help people understand what does this mean. I knew that there was a need to reconcile
00:26:03
Speaker
It's best and what that feels like and the passion, you know, what are the words people use when they talk passionately about mag with what we had written and so commissioned the process to review that which is very much ongoing. Say so many things you can change at once, especially during a pandemic. So we're very much in the midst right now of reviewing our values to.
00:26:22
Speaker
to create an updated version of values that will drive us through decisions, through difficult times that will reflect the bedrock that we'll need for the next five years as we start to think about a new strategy for 2023 through to 2028. So I wanted to reconcile those two points really. What we had versus what we needed informed by the best of mag and harnessing those thoughts from a range of people across the organization. That's the bit that's happening today is part of
00:26:51
Speaker
I hope an inclusive conversation across MAG about about our values and who we want to be and how they are expressed. Ongoing work. Indeed. Last month I spoke at an Akiba event where the topic of discussion was around how we can bring to life principles around diversity and inclusion in leadership.
00:27:10
Speaker
And for me personally, this is always to do with representation and role modeling. And of course, values are always demonstrated or represented through behaviors. And one of my fellow panelists made a really insightful point that the culture of an organization is shaped not just by the positive behaviors modeled by the CEO, but almost more so by the worst behaviors that the CEO is willing to tolerate. And in this context,
00:27:38
Speaker
What does equity, diversity, and inclusion mean for you personally? Can you give us some examples of what you're doing in that space?
Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion Efforts
00:27:46
Speaker
It's been a very live and relevant issue in the organization. Again, another point I've reflected on as I marked my first year in the role was, I guess the challenges of what an authentic, open, safe conversation around these issues really looks like in the organization.
00:28:05
Speaker
Sing here is a getting towards probably middle-aged white man in leading the sector. Yeah, how does one have and create the space for an authentic conversation around these issues in an organization whilst also Delivering on all of the day-to-day commitments as well. That's been a really hard challenge and again one we've just tried to take on openly what we've been trying to do at mag over the last 12 months is to
00:28:31
Speaker
Create and this is still ongoing because change takes time a space for open dialogue about what? different people have felt and feeling the organization around these issues and You know my job
00:28:46
Speaker
has been to create an environment and create a space and create a focus that these conversations can happen. I think one of the things that a CEO can do is convene. You have the authority to convene the spaces in which conversation should happen, the ability to convene resources.
00:29:05
Speaker
convened management attention. They're the levers you've got. Into that space, you then bring in expertise to help inform how conversations must happen. Again, another key strategic initiative that we're very much in the middle of right now is our conversation on equality, diversity, and inclusion in the organization.
00:29:23
Speaker
we've sought to engage perspectives from around MAG. That has been very ably and healthy guided by a diversity inclusion steering group from a range of backgrounds and levels and cultures in the organization who have been part of that steering group to help me and management think through these issues and how to use that convening effect that we've got.
00:29:45
Speaker
That's been really important over the last 12 months and we've made commitments as an organization to improve how the diversity with which mag is lead and hopefully commitments were starting to deliver on but as ever.
00:29:58
Speaker
It's starting point because there's much work to be done so that's some of the things that i thought to use the influence i have in the organization and to be open about what i don't know as a result of the biases and privileges that i have having life and acknowledge that really and hopefully be open enough for people feel like saying.
00:30:16
Speaker
Yeah, well, Darren, that probably wasn't quite right. You know, the conversation should be having is this and people feel like they can approach you rather than sort of just going with what you say. I mean, that's the last thing we really want here is me assuming I know the answer to these important issues because we don't really put together. We can find a way forward with it. And that's what we're trying to do. I think here, mag.
00:30:34
Speaker
I really like what you reflected there Darren about what does an authentic conversation in this space look and feel like and indeed that the role of the CEO is to create the space for open dialogue and perhaps one of the superpowers for a chief executive in any organization should be around the convening of resources and attention to really mission critical issues across
00:31:00
Speaker
the board. And talking about leadership, Darren, I'd love now to hear a bit more about your own background and your career journey.
Darren's Leadership Journey
00:31:08
Speaker
How have you gotten to where you are today? Yeah, there is a bit of a journey, I guess, between that paper round and where we are now for me. And I've always had a preoccupation with international issues and not quite sure what really has sort of driven that because generally from a family that never really kind of went
00:31:26
Speaker
that far from the village in which it was born into so that's always curious. Maybe on those conversations I would have with my dad if we if we were able to use that magic wand that you offered earlier but essentially I guess upon leaving university found myself with the responsibility of volunteering on a project that sought to better understand the biodiversity
00:31:47
Speaker
of the Cardamom Mountains in southwest Cambodia. So again, that opportunity came about because just through relationships and through networks. And I think that has been a key learning point for me throughout my career has been it's just the ability to build relationships, to engage with people in stakeholders is so critical in every walk of life, ultimately. But as a result of that, I found I washed up in Cambodia working with Conservation International on a project that sought to better understand whether there were
00:32:17
Speaker
any tigers left in that part of southwest Cambodia, we did find a relative abundance of Siamese crocodiles as a result of many weeks spent out trekking through the jungles of that part of the world, sleeping in hammocks and various other things that I probably wouldn't do now 20 years on. But that was how the adventure began for me. And I think once you start finding your way into that world of a sector working internationally, you just make the most of it and stay in touch with people. So I did that for
00:32:47
Speaker
I guess on and off, maybe nine months a year working in that region. Then I went on to count parrots in the Philippines for a PhD student who I'd gotten to know over a beer in Manchester. So I ended up going out there and spending several months again living out in the wilds of a remote part of the Philippines trying to count parrots for his study. Jumping ahead from there, did a couple of years in private sector.
00:33:16
Speaker
consultancy here in the UK on issues of environmental management. Working in a small private sector startup was a fascinating couple of years to understand some key professional disciplines around working hard, the importance of delivering quality products, just the pace of a startup. But it wasn't international enough for me and that was where my heart lay and joined TIFF and spent several years with TIFF and in South Sudan.
00:33:44
Speaker
Darfur at a particularly tricky time in 2005-2006 in Darfur when the conflict was raging there before then moving to Indonesia for two years to help with the reconstruction in Aceh province after the tsunami so found myself responsible for
00:34:00
Speaker
a large team building houses, schools, clinics and various other large kind of projects around livelihoods, reconstruction work in Ache province. So a really interesting kind of best part of a decade living and working internationally and then I joined MAG in 2008 and certainly the rest is not history because it was a brilliant 12 years working for MAG and it's a humbling privilege to
00:34:26
Speaker
I've ended up as CEO here at MAG, an organization that I'm very passionate about and committed to. So to have the opportunity to step up as CEO 12-ish months ago was, well, it's been incredible really, not without challenges, but it's a real privilege to have this responsibility of helping to guide MAG in the way that we're trying to.
00:34:44
Speaker
It's so fascinating to me talking to all of the guests on this podcast who really understand and hear about the different routes to leadership. And I must say, Darren, I've never had one before that was essentially paper round and crocodiles, parrots leading to a startup and international development bringing you to MAG. So really, really interesting.
00:35:07
Speaker
Yeah, there's a few moments in there. It's only when you step back occasionally and put it all together like that, you think actually. It's a bit of a reminder that it's never a linear journey, but it's the fact that it's not linear that makes it really enriching and interesting. It never seems like that when you're playing it forward, but when you're playing it back, it all makes sense a little bit more. There's probably something in that as well. Yeah, there's a few moments in there which were quite interesting particularly in the early days.
00:35:33
Speaker
Absolutely. And looking back at your leadership journey, what advice would you give to yourself on day one of first stepping into a leadership role?
00:35:42
Speaker
find that space to reflect, I think has been key. Certainly in those, my tendency is probably to being somebody who's quite action-orientated, getting things done. I think that has been enormously helpful really in moving issues forward, whether it be within an organization, whether it be within the ambitions I have from a career perspective to find a way into international development or find a way into working internationally. That took at times a lot of tenacity, a lot of
00:36:09
Speaker
phone calls or emails that were going unanswered, but keeping up with it because you knew where you wanted to get and had the work ethic to eventually get there. I think there's an enormous amount of importance of being action orientated and being proactive and having the energy to get things done that characterizes, well, important qualities for a leader. I think you have to punctuate that with the space to reflect.
00:36:32
Speaker
there are many different ways you can describe the importance of leadership but for me it's finding that sort of tension between reflection and action i think that's the holy grail ultimately is to look at what we're doing do it but also step back occasionally and say okay why so i've held on to those two kind of bookends if you like of leadership qualities of characteristics and then within that i would say.
00:36:53
Speaker
Just to look at a post-it note, I keep it aside my monitor, be curious and communicate. I think there are two things that are important. I put them on a post-it note at the side of my monitor because they're not necessarily, I guess, intuitive or inherent reactions I have. It's a reminder that if you just put something at your side, a little guidance there, you can equip yourself. You can develop in particular ways by deliberate action. I stick those things there to remember, okay, be curious in this meeting or
00:37:20
Speaker
or find a way into that meeting so your curiosity can be satisfied and so I find myself kind of particularly inated by these virtual worlds of washing up in a senior management team meeting in Laos to say hello and just listen to what's going on and I think that satisfies a bit of a curiosity there which I've tried to keep focused on into year two. There's some of the things that I would probably kind of advise myself back in the day. Yeah so they come to mind.
00:37:43
Speaker
I love that taking deliberate action punctuated with the space to reflect and coming back now to
Pride in MAG's Community Impact
00:37:51
Speaker
talk about mag. What would you say is most inspiring about being the CEO of the organization.
00:37:56
Speaker
I refer to the documentary that we've recently put on the BBC about just the life-changing effects that working for Mac can have for people, both because of what we do. We ultimately do work, which in many ways is very tangible. We can remove a landmine that enables somebody to increase their harvest production and get them off the bread line in a certain country.
00:38:20
Speaker
to give the parent the confidence to let their child play out and go play football without wondering if that ball runs astray and into an area that they're unsure about what does that mean? How does that release somebody really from the anguish and the fear
00:38:35
Speaker
of living in a community like that. And so we make very tangible impacts on people's lives in that way. Hopefully through working for MAG, we empower staff to feel like they're making a difference in their communities, but give them the sense of confidence and purpose in themselves, as we've seen. And that's a big part of how we're pushing ourselves to improve the inclusive employment in MAG. So, you know, if you've seen the case of Amshush, she feels
00:39:00
Speaker
passionate about what she does and confident in herself as a result of their experiences working with Mag. So that's some of the moments of real pride when you hear those issues played back. Every week we have a staff meeting which virtually we're able to bring more and more people to it. We have an international commons manager who's been with Mag for a long time and takes these great pictures and has these stories and his job is to go out there and sort of understand and learn from what's going on in the world and play that back for audiences.
00:39:27
Speaker
By and large, he has the last word in the meeting. We give over that last agenda item in these half hour meetings where he puts up a picture and tells a story about that picture, about the community we helped. He has that last word and it's a chance to remind everybody on a weekly basis why we do what we do and how everybody contributes ultimately to the impact that we're having on somebody out in Iraq or in Mali or wherever we might be talking about in that week.
00:39:51
Speaker
better members of pride and we just trying to use them into the organization regularly so everybody feels that sense of pride and purpose in who we are so that's the things that we do and some of the ways that I feel proud immensely proud to be CEO of this great organization.
00:40:07
Speaker
Well, Darren, this has been such an inspiring discussion and I love the example you gave there of actually taking deliberate action to create or carve out that moment of inspiration by deliberately talking about that picture and that person that you are there as an organization to serve and those communities.
Curiosity in Leadership and Decision-Making
00:40:25
Speaker
And in closing now, Darren, do you have any final thoughts or reflections that you would like to share? I mean, what is one thing that you'd like our listeners to take away from this conversation?
00:40:34
Speaker
the importance of curiosity. I think if you can harness that kind of curiosity, I think life becomes a really rich experience and I'm actually in the middle of being on leave at the minute but I'm very happy to be here today in that break but actually spending a bit of time just sat away from the day job reading a book albeit with three kids and that was limited to about
00:40:53
Speaker
seven seconds, but it was a reminder that actually reading widely, staying curious on issues is enriching in itself as well as being a really important attribute, I think, in leadership because
00:41:05
Speaker
If you only listen to those people around you immediately, that only gives you a limited perspective. I think as a leader of an entire organization, you have to have as broad a perspective on what's going on as you can be. So staying curious actually is a really interesting way of exploring and delivering on that responsibility. So that's one thing that comes to mind without any particular homework on that question.
00:41:29
Speaker
Well, thank you, Darren. That was so inspiring and great to hear. And I loved all of your stories. Thank you so much for being a guest on the show and sharing your perspectives. One of the greatest joys of being a nonprofit leader is the knowledge and recognition of the tangible impact on people's lives that our work has. I loved what Darren said about the importance of staying curious in order to keep enriching our own leadership abilities.
00:41:57
Speaker
and thereby deliver on our responsibilities. And so, whatever we are seeking to achieve in life, I would encourage us all to be curious, take deliberate action and possibly, most important of all, create the space to reflect.
00:42:13
Speaker
I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Charity CEO podcast. A show that, thanks to you, our listeners, has repeatedly reached the number one spot in Apple's non-profit podcast category. If you found this conversation valuable, please help spread the word. Share or tag us on Twitter or LinkedIn or Instagram, and make sure you subscribe to the show by clicking the subscribe button on your podcast app.
00:42:36
Speaker
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