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Episode 23: Navigating Grief: The Dos & Don'ts (with Bryna Talamantez)
15 Plays3 months ago
Join Lorie Burch and the Burch Law Team (Cyntia, Sara, and Sam) as we dive into the complex world of grief with our guest, Bryna Talamantez, a seasoned marriage and family therapist specializing in grief counseling. We'll unpack the dos and don'ts of supporting someone who's grieving with a mix of Bryna's professional insights and tips along the way.
+ Don't miss the finale with Sam and Sara dishing out some of the worst things you could say to someone grieving, or, expecting...?
Tune in for some crucial insights and tips this week!
Join us every Wednesday for new episodes!
Where you can find Bryna Talamantez:
Where you can find Burch Law:
- IG @BurchLawTX
- FB @BurchLaw
- YT @LorieBurchLaw
- hello@burch-law.com
- (972) 385-0558
Visit burch-law.com/podcast to reach out!
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Transcript
Introduction to Estate Planning Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of One of Us Knows What They're Talking About. Another one is you. I'm Lori Burch, your host. Join us as we discuss and unpack wills, trust, estate planning, and probate law in a way that's actually informative, interesting, and well, hopefully entertaining. Because if you don't have a will, the state of Texas has one for you. Let's dive in.
Guest Introduction: Brenda Telemantes
00:00:39
Speaker
So we're very happy to be joined by a guest. You're our first guest who's not a realtor, unless you have a realtor that we don't know about. No, no, I don't. What's kind of funny about that is we spend an inordinate amount of time talking about how unhinged in general realtors are.
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah. It's been our experience. And, but I mean, we love them. Sure. And we love their referrals and we love them. And there's many who are not, but just as like a species. Well, cause like you have to be. I think so. I don't think they're born that way. I think that clients, you know, home buyers make them that way. I think it's a little bit. Yeah.
00:01:27
Speaker
um b Well, it's like, I feel like it takes a certain type of person to want to do that. And then your yeah, then your client like take you to the next level. I think it and then if you don't go to therapy, then you have no boundaries. Great segue. We'll get there.
Emotional Decisions in Home Buying
00:01:47
Speaker
I think I think one of the things is is that home buying is probably the most extreme version of completely emotional decisions that you think are completely rational and logical, but they're not. It's 100% emotional. When especially if it revolves around like death,
00:02:07
Speaker
in some way. What should I keep this on track? Well, sure but like, I'm trying to also think like, if you're if there were, if there were to you, I clearly I don't know why I've been up since 6am. And I don't know how my brain is still functioning. I was at HIV at 650. This morning. It was the most beautiful experience I've ever had. They were opening 6am. I I looked because I was like, are are you? yeah It was beautiful. I was out by 715. But the fact that my brain is so much leaking. But like, I'm thinking of the referrals that y'all have, like they probably revolve sometimes around death. So it's even more emotional sometimes. Sometimes. So let's, let's do an official introduction.
Focus on Grief and ADHD in Therapy
00:02:56
Speaker
So we, we met, and you also, you too have a podcast.
00:03:02
Speaker
i do And um I listened to the one, we we all had tickets to attend and then it had to be rescheduled and then these these people pretend that they have schedules that conflicted, which none of them do, but apparently that one didn't. did! ah About you know in taking the the Taylor Swift album and talking about it in context of mental health. mental health And so we wanted to have you, so so introduce yourself, let's let's start with. Yeah, so hello, I'm Brenda Telemantes and I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and I um specialize in seeing kids two and up, which is why my office, like ah that's Fred the dinosaur sitting over there. That's why my office looks like this, it's got toys everywhere. um And I do see teenagers and young adults.
00:03:52
Speaker
Um, even though ah my license says marriage in it, I don't see couples. Couples are very scary. I rather see five year olds. They're more fun. And I specialize in grief and ADHD, anxiety and life transitions. But I mostly talk about grief and death all day long. That's like my main yeah it's my main bread and butter is grief and death. Personally, personally, it's what I do. first slide Oh, yeah, that's, that's why I it's a tiktok sound. It's what I do what I do. So just to be clear, all the toys behind me are for me. Well, yeah, and I'm sorry to do credits for me when my kids are not here.
00:04:38
Speaker
Sarah, we need to do an episode where we take a tour of what I have back here. um This is Central Park. That would be hilarious. This is a Lego that I built from the front set. I love it. And it's my Spice Girls um lunchbox. So anyway, all of this stuff is purely for me, but that's fine. One of my teenagers makes me play Legos every once in a while, and it really brings me joy.
00:05:03
Speaker
because she knows that I don't sit and play with Legos very often. She goes, I think we need to Lego today. I'm like, okay. Yesterday I was making mums with her. And she, I have cookies on my floor because she bribed me with cookies to make her mom. So it's like, that works. It came back to me very, very, I worked at a mom making store in ninth and 10th grade. And then that sort of closed.
00:05:30
Speaker
but then 11th and 12th grade, because in Plano, you know, our high schools are all weird. So we didn't have Homecoming in 9th and 10th grade in the early 2000s. I think they do now.
00:05:41
Speaker
but we did in 11th and 12th grade. So by the time I got to junior and senior year, my mom and I just went and got all this stuff. And then my friends all made their moms at our house. So my friends were just like hanging out at my house with my mom when I was at home. It was so weird, but that's just how our house was. Everyone was at my house with my mom all the time. It was so odd, but they liked her. Yeah. Yeah. I cut myself a couple of times with staples. Ooh.
00:06:09
Speaker
So did you, Brenna, did you go to school here? I did, I grew up in Plano. I actually live and in my neighborhood. i I live one street away from my childhood home right now and it's really weird. That's a little weird, yeah. So when I walk the dog, I like see all of my friends' parents and I'm like, hey. So where did you go to high school? I went to Plano Senior.
00:06:33
Speaker
Okay, so did I, so did I. Okay, all right, did not know this. It was the worst of times, it was the worst of times. It was not really the worst of times. so The worst of times for me was Shepton. You know, I liked, I did better at Vines than I did at Plano. Vines is a vine. Plano was there. Actually, I say the reason Plano senior got better than Shepton is because we were mixed with the Vines kids and they were much nicer people.
00:07:03
Speaker
We are a vibe. Yes. I have a 14 year old who is a freshman at Vines. So we thought that there's a lot of directions we could go, but one of the things that I thought would be interesting to discuss, because we have a lot of personal experience with it in doing estate planning and probate.
Comforting the Grieving: Common Mistakes
00:07:24
Speaker
is talking about grief. And yeah I think one of the things that would be great to hear from you is I think we're pretty good at it, but it would be nice to know, you know, cause we're here for a purely legal standpoint to get people through this process. Um, but certain things that we may or may not be sensitive about, um, and should be sensitive to. And then one thing that I had mentioned to you before,
00:07:50
Speaker
because I have a personal experience with this that I i will definitely share, is just all the horrible things that people say um to grieving people. And sometimes, you know, and they say it with the best of intentions. And like, they don't realize that they're saying the worst thing ever.
00:08:11
Speaker
Like I said that as someone who's been who has lost a very close loved one One thing that frustrates me on behalf of like our clients and behalf of other people is that you're the one that has to be understanding Right. You're the one that has to be like they they mean the best when they say these things So anyway, yeah not to interrupt, but we will oh, yeah continuous. Yeah. Yeah, um Yeah people um You know, and I think that the root cause of all of this is because we don't talk about death just as a society. We don't we don't talk about death. We don't talk about grief. So therefore we don't know.
00:08:53
Speaker
how to talk about it when it happens to us. And this is the one thing that is guaranteed, that every single one of us is going to navigate at some point. At some point, we are going to grieve, and at some point, someone close to us is going to be grieving, and that we are going to have to comfort them, yet we have no clue what we're doing.
00:09:13
Speaker
and so i um And people will say things with the best of intentions. um I made my little list today while I was compiling some of my PowerPoints and things, because I like to talk. and anybody Anytime anybody wants me to talk about death and grief, I'm like, please let me do it. But I... yeah Same. ah Yes. But you people are like, oh, so So naturally, like when it comes to my office, oh, it's so great that you've had your own. So a little bit of background. My dad died when I was nine and he died. He had a really long illness. He was sick my whole life. We knew he was never going to make it to my 16th birthday. We were a little shocked. He only made it to the time I was nine, but like it is what it is. And so that was the start of my grief journey that my grandmother died when I was 14 after a short illness with cancer that my mom died when I was 19. So this is why I do what I do. And so.
00:10:09
Speaker
When kids come to my office, people will be like, oh, well, you can connect with the kids. You must tell them your story all the time. And I'm like, I mean, to a point, a lot of my kids who are grieving that walk in here know that, yes, Brenna has had people that she loves die, but I don't immediately put on them. Oh, I know exactly how you feel because I don't because our stories are different and I want to honor that for them. And so I may.
00:10:39
Speaker
like to help them feel comfortable, to help them just get used to me be like, hey, you know, my dad died too, or my mom died too, whichever, whichever person they're in here for. But our stories are different. And your your grief is going to look different than my grief. And things that may help you may help or me help may help you. And that's cool.
00:11:03
Speaker
And things that may help you may not help me, or vice versa. And that's cool, too. Different things might help us. And so, you know, it's quick for us to, ah like, make the assumption of, Oh, I know exactly how you feel. Or people will come up to us and say, Oh, I know exactly how you feel about your dad's death. My goldfish died. And it's like,
00:11:26
Speaker
Lovely. Well, like, no, that's a little different. Like, we I love that you love your goldfish and that means a lot to me that you loved your goldfish, but it's a little different. um But thank you for trying. That's okay.
00:11:43
Speaker
um Another one that I think that people think is helpful, but really just puts a lot of pressure on people is the you're so strong.
00:11:56
Speaker
or you're doing so well, or that, and again, it has, and we're not here to like, sit on people if you've said these things, we're here to like learn. But, you know, the the person who is grieving, who is having to navigate all their life has just changed. The last thing they're sick of being strong.
00:12:19
Speaker
They're sick of having to fake it because the last thing that they want to do is to keep having to quote, be strong. They're, they're over it. They don't want to do it anymore. Or they just don't feel strong at all whatsoever. And for you to come up to them and be like, Oh, well, you're so strong. And you're like, are you kidding? You don't, you are not picking up this situation at all. I'm not feeling strong. I don't want to be strong. I need help. And so for people to come up and be like, Oh, you're so strong. You're handling this so well. It's like read the room.
00:12:49
Speaker
Right? Like, no. um So like, some alternatives to that is, wow, like, are you or how are you doing today? Just asking, how are you doing today? How does your grief feel today? It, it looks like you're, you're feeling put together today. But how are you feeling today? What can I, what can I do to help you?
00:13:18
Speaker
um Let's not assume people are doing anything. Let's not assume people are feeling any kind of way because then they're they're just going to be like, I can't trust this person. They're not reading the room.
00:13:32
Speaker
right um So again, best of intentions, but no one wants to have to feel strong in these moments and they're sick of it. um Another one that I think that especially kids and teenagers are often told is it's gonna be okay. Who told you that? Who gave you the magic ball that told um told you and guaranteed that it's gonna be okay? How do you know that?
00:14:05
Speaker
And they're going to, any, especially kids and teenagers, they're going to look at you and be like, person, I can't trust. Got it. I know that you are a lying, dirty lie face and I'm good. And doesn't that also encourage something that we far too often encourage and that is just to bottle it up or to hide or to ignore very legitimate feelings that you have?
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah. And it's, you know, it just shows people it's like, okay, here's one less person I can turn to. If this is the platitude I'm going to get from this person, I know I can't go to this person when I'm actually feeling bad because they're going to come back with me of like, Oh, well, it's going to be okay. So this is one less person.
00:14:51
Speaker
that can be in my inner circle of people. And I think that those of us who have experienced hard things in general, um whether it be death or divorce or any just big life transition, hard change, anything like that, we find out who our people are. And we find out who's going to stick around. We find out who's actually going to listen. And these are the words of the people who aren't going to stick around.
00:15:21
Speaker
It's gonna be okay. All right. I know you're not my inner circle of people if that's what you're gonna throw at me No, I I can't trust you with my feelings what is it in you know, I I don't want to pretend like I have any sort of background in Psychology, I mean I will say this I have been in through lots of therapy in my life.
00:15:44
Speaker
and for yeah but so its so But does that qualify me for diagnosing things? But I do think, I didn't, you know, for another podcast, we'll talk about how I started to practice in estate planning and probate, but that's for for another time. um But I do think there's a certain amount of of, you know, fate or the universe or God playing a role in that because I seem to have a knack for understanding people and going through that.
00:16:13
Speaker
And coincidentally, and I do mean coincidentally, because I'd already set myself on this fact that i was on this path that I was going to start this practice. But right as I was in DC thinking I would come back to Dallas and start this practice, my stepdad died suddenly.
00:16:29
Speaker
Mm-hmm and unexpectedly and so I often talk about how That set the tone for me because while I was starting this practice of Either helping people plan for what happens if they pass away Well, really not if but when right? Mm-hmm or They've lost a loved one that I had all this experience of seeing what we are are going through and And I don't, I've lived overseas and I've experienced a lot of different cultures. I went to an international school and all of that.
Being Present for the Grieving
00:17:04
Speaker
and So i don't I don't know if it's a cultural thing, but I think there's a lot of discomfort in us not knowing how to deal with someone where you feel such a loss of control.
00:17:14
Speaker
yeah And what I've discovered in a lot of my experiences personally and professionally is that people don't necessarily want you to fix things or have answers. They just want to feel seen and they want to feel heard.
00:17:29
Speaker
And if they feel like you're so if you can just sit in that with them, yeah, that but they they want to fix it. They want to compar um ah ah compartmentalize it and they want to move on. You know, one of the things they said, a friend who you won't like this, but it was a wife of a therapist okay who said to my mom, well, you've been divorced before, so you know what it's like.
00:17:53
Speaker
And my mom was like, I hated that guy. I couldn't wait to have him out of my life. This is a totally different um such different situation. You know, and another another one in Cynthia knows the story is that ah my My parents were pretty well known in the local Plano community here, business community. And when I moved back in the wake of all of this and started my own practice, I encountered a lot of people who knew them. And I actually had this guy in the middle of a networking event with several people surrounding me.
00:18:26
Speaker
And he said, I didn't want to ask your mom, but because it was too sensitive. But how did your dad die again? I've gotten that. Yeah, I've got. Yeah. And and you know, not only is that just wrong, but it was actually a really weird, bizarre accident with a propane tank. Like it's no like it's And I'm just like, oh my, like I, I'm surprised I've gotten to this point 20 years later. That's my dad. like Like, like, well, and that's another thing that I'm curious about. You know, I,
00:19:02
Speaker
You know, I always had referred to him as my dad. He came into my life and because I have somewhat taken on a public role. I run for Congress and this and that. I don't want anybody to have a got you where you said your dad died and now you're talking about your dad who's alive in California.
00:19:18
Speaker
So it really is more recent development where I even refer to him as my stepdad. And something that really frustrates me is I feel like I always have to say my beloved stepdad or my stepdad who I was very close to. And I hate having to do that because I feel like I have to justify, no, this is a significant loss to me. Yeah. I mean, all of that. I mean, maybe we just need to book a session outside of this. I don't know. But you know,
00:19:45
Speaker
It's it really is so much that's entangled with a lot of this loss in grief. Well, and that, you know, it gets us into some disenfranchised grief, too, because it's, you know, disenfranchised grief is like that grief that we don't think that we're allowed to grieve as much. So ah um um it's like, you know,
00:20:07
Speaker
maybe you feel sometimes you're not allowed to grieve your stepdad as much as you're supposed to grieve your biological dad. And it's like people people um have disenfranchised grief when it comes to like stigmatized deaths, such as like death by suicide or overdose. or yeah um When it comes to miscarriages and fertility, like there's so the list goes on and on and on. um But you know, those those mixed up kind of feelings that we feel of like Oh, well, I feel like I have to have all of these explanations around my grief. And it's just like, can't I just have my feelings about my person because I loved them? Like, can't I just have these feelings and it's and just to
00:20:54
Speaker
not have to justify anything and not have to explain anything and not have people in a networking event come up to me and be like, oh, well, just because it was my stepdad and not my husband, you think that this is appropriate to ask. And I want to say, like,
00:21:11
Speaker
that that's like tickling a memory in my brain of like somebody has asked me that at some point and I now can't remember like what exactly the context was but somebody has asked me that yeah but now I'm like was it about my mom was it about my dad like and it was like a I didn't ask them but I'm asking you and I'm like now I don't know why so it's like tickling something I you know I have all the PTSD like fuzzy yeah memory things like there are some things from my teenage early adulthood years that my husband actually remembers more than I do. And there's things that with even with my mom still alive that he'll remember an event. I'm like, we did what? Like, are you sure? And he's like, Yeah, don't you remember this? And normally I'm the elephant of the family. I'm like, Oh, yeah, we pulled out that we'd wait here and um like my cousins and I
00:22:03
Speaker
And they're like, how do you remember that? Like, how do you not remember that? Like, you're older than me. Like, why don't you remember this? But with some things with like, my teenage years, I get a little fuzzy sometimes. And like, after my mom died that little bit of time after I, I'm very fuzzy. And so he remembers more. He's like, Yeah, we did this. I'm like, no, we didn't. Like, yes, we did. So, but that's a memory somewhere. Yeah, I mean, I I'm gonna have to journal about that later. I know, I'm gonna have to ask him and be like, did somebody ask me this? And he's gonna think on it and he'll remember if something happened like that. Or maybe somebody asked him, I'm gonna have to, if he wasn't in a meeting right now, I would text him, but he's in some meeting that he's not getting paid for. So, I'll have to ask him tonight when I get home what that is. But yeah, people are so weird.
00:22:57
Speaker
And I think as we have, you know, our culture and just, you know, this is America being America. Our culture is just so like pick yourself up by your bootstraps. We're going to keep your chin up. You're gonna just going to keep going. Yeah. England might be a little like this too, but like we're just going to keep going. We got this. Keep just keep just keep doing what you do that we don't we don't allow ourselves to just sit and honor our stuff. And you know what's so interesting about that, at least from my personal experience and my personal journey, is that in having that vulnerability and that authenticity about owning that, is that's really where I derive my strength from.
00:23:43
Speaker
And i i but so I have this whole theory that you know we I don't think anybody disagrees with the fundamental idea. It's almost a platitude of that. you know we We want to make the world a better place. And then we can have a lot of different you know ideas of what that looks like. But you know we're always we're always wanting to better ourselves. If we think that we're perfect right now, I don't think anybody you know accepts that.
00:24:07
Speaker
but you know You can create change through um laws. You can create change through cases cases and you know challenging things. And you can create change through hearts and minds. And long, long story, I feel like as much as I pursued um the changing things through cases being a lawyer what our original intent was or changing things through legislation running for congress That this third rail of changing that actually the way people perceive things changing their hearts and minds
00:24:43
Speaker
Is another way to create change and for me is really the long game and I guess for whatever reason is where I found my strength and I think that By sharing our personal stories because it becomes a lot harder to hate judge each other when we know somebody who is it who who is there and who is affected and so I I think it's just an interesting thing because you know there's this backlash of you know mental health and being snowflakes. I would argue that you're a bigger snowflake if you are getting hung up on Bud Light and female soccer players um and you know injustice and our climate dying.
00:25:24
Speaker
But whatever, you know, but it is it is a balance and I really think that there's a certain degree of empowerment Where we can own our mental health talk about it I am much more inspired by people who have had setbacks who have had quote unquote failures And how they overcome that Right then right and it's like why? There's a certain segment of us that are even more inspired by her From her coming back in and overcoming that ends in speaking to it And I hope that's the direction we're going is a more evolved society and world is not thinking that that's becoming a ah weaker or more sensitive or this whole, you know
00:26:09
Speaker
Bs woke philosophy is no we're becoming more aware of ourselves And if we aren't trying to evolve if we aren't trying to better ourselves
Modern Grief Theories
00:26:18
Speaker
Then what's the point of doing any of this anyway, right? right and you know, that it doesn't you know one of the um More modern theories of grief because you know the five stages of grief that has been proven that they don't actually exist. They do not accurately describe the grief experience. I don't even know what they are because that's how out of my brain, they they don't exist in my brain. So the five stages of grief do not accurately describe the grief experience. They actually more describe someone who's been diagnosed with a terminal illness. So if you think of it from that perspective, oh makes a lot of sense. um We do appreciate Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
00:27:05
Speaker
because she was one of the first people to look at grief as a whole and start researching it. So we do love her for that, um but five sieges of grief, not it. um One of the more modern theorists is Alan Wolfeld, and he has the six needs of mourners, um which we, as a lot of clinicians who specialize in grief, we use that. And he also has the companioning model for grief.
00:27:34
Speaker
um And you do not have to be a therapist to use this companioning model of grief. You can just be a person. And that's what, yeah like I mean, a lot of therapists use it. And if you go to ah one of his trainings in Colorado, that is what you're going to be taught. And a lot of therapists or who are taking his trainings. But it is all about sitting still, being with the person, listening to them, not pretending to be an expert on grief.
00:28:04
Speaker
i'm not I don't, do I know a lot about grief? Yes. Do I know a lot about like death and dying and all of these things? Sure. Will I ever say I'm an expert? No, because I'm not even the expert of my own because my own grief changes and morphs. it's twenty My grief is 24 years old and it still changes and ebbs and flows and there's hard days and there's not hard days. There's hard seasons and there's not hard seasons. 2020 was a particularly hard season even though nobody died. It just was
00:28:38
Speaker
The o zero years are just hard because my dad died in 2000. My grandmother died on a five year. My mom died on a zero year. So it just is a lot of milestone years. And so it was my dad's 20th anniversary. My mom's 10th anniversary was frickin 2020. We had an election from hell. My husband was a teacher or is a teacher and so was a teacher. And so it just was a lot going on.
00:29:00
Speaker
So there's grief ebbs and flows, it changes, there's a lot of things going on. So I'm not even an expert in my own grief, I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert in somebody else's. But the companioning model of grief encourages us just to sit and be and exist with someone who is grieving. And that's all, Lori, going back to your point from earlier, that's all anybody who is grieving wants the person to do. We don't want any of this toxic positivity be us of like,
00:29:30
Speaker
The worst one, and I'm gonna really make somebody mad, and I really apologize. The worst one that I dislike the most is it was God's plan. Whether you are a religious person or not a religious person, but I firmly, and I, you know, I was still a very, I was still going to church every single Sunday when my mom died when I was 19. And I don't believe it was god's God's plan for me to have no parents or grandparents or a home by the time I was 20.
00:30:00
Speaker
I don't think that was the plan. I think that's kind of stupid. And so if you're going to tell that to somebody, they're going to look at you and go, huh? Right. And, you know, that might bring comfort to some. They're in a better place, might bring comfort to some, but to a majority and especially to kids, they're going to look at you and go, they're in a better place and they're going to look at you and go in the better place here with me. Right.
00:30:28
Speaker
most adults in the better place here with me. Wouldn't I love as a 33 year old for my mom to be here to the I convention fits to her all the time. Sure, my husband, I think would kind of like that. I could venture her sometime. I sure enjoy that. um Yeah, but you know, I yeah, that'd be cool. That'd be kind of nice. Would it drive me crazy a little bit? Sure. Yeah. But you know,
00:30:56
Speaker
all people want when they are grieving is for someone to just sit with them and just go, What do you need today? Yeah, like I am one of my best friends grandfathers died.
00:31:13
Speaker
At some point this year, that makes me a really bad friend. I think it was at some point this summer. um the The months have blended at some point. I think it was this summer and they were um spreading his ashes over Labor Day weekend. And so it was just a rough weekend and all the things and she has a baby and the baby was like sick and teething and all the things. And so I just text her was like, what do you need from me right now?
00:31:36
Speaker
And I was like, do you need me to be a therapist right now? Like, do you need me to be your friend right now? and And like all that's like all of my friends. I'm like, do what do you what answer do you need for me right now? Do you need me to be a therapist? Because I don't know. And sometimes it's like, I don't know if I have the energy to be your therapist, but I can be a bitch. Right. um always But I don't know if I can be a therapist always at the moment. And so I just told her was like, do you need me to be funny? Like, what what response do you need? She goes, Well, I'll take a funny distraction. So then I just told her funny stories.
00:32:04
Speaker
um But sometimes that's just what we need. Like, what do you need from me right now? What kind of response do you need? Sometimes, like with adults specifically, it's like, let's offer specific help of, especially if it's like, you know, dad has died, husband has died. You've got a mom with kids. You text her. I'm available from 12 to three today to help you. Here are tasks.
00:32:34
Speaker
I can help you with. They include laundry, cleaning your kitchen, meal prepping for you, which would be the most helpful for you today. Almost like, you know, the actual helpful things when you someone's postpartum. It's almost like that. And not the, not the just coming and cuddling the baby stuff. It's like the actual, like, I need someone to come do my laundry. And that can also can, can like, Hey, put your laundry on the porch.
00:33:03
Speaker
I'll come pick it up and do it and bring it back. So they don't even have to have that interaction with people because sometimes that's just too much. Yeah. um But hey, I'm going to swing by your house at one. Throw your laundry on the porch. Don't organize it. Just throw it on the porch. I will bring it back to you tonight. Done.
00:33:22
Speaker
What else do you want an image of somebody just chucking laundry outside? Yeah, and I mean, because I know with my friends, I'm like, girl, I don't care to throw it on the porch. I will do it. Like, and it especially like the inner group of people like I don't care what it looks like. I will fix it. It is fine.
00:33:42
Speaker
And then then it's like, okay, I'm taking my kids to the park at two. I'm going to swing by and get yours. I'm also going to bring you Starbucks on the way home. Would you like a pumpkin spice latte or would you like something else? Yeah. So it's like, here are so specific tasks because when people are like, Oh, well let me know what help you need. Grief brain people don't know what help they need.
00:34:05
Speaker
right Like they don't know how to tie their shoes. like right and it's And it's hard. And I, you know, one of the things, so with losing my stepdad, and it was August. And so everything was really centered around my mom, the first Thanksgiving, the first Christmas, the first New Year's. And then everybody moves on. And then the second year. The first Father's Day.
00:34:32
Speaker
Yeah, it was the first time when it was just us like it wasn't about my mom and I remember a Couple people who I just did business with I didn't really know all they did Was they sent me flowers or they sent me a text that said thinking about you and that by itself is yeah was really, really significant. Just feeling seen and them knowing like, hey, this is a tough day for you because we had rallied around my mom and pushed aside like a lot of this stuff. And one of the other things that you just mentioned, and this is something I'm particularly sensitive to that I that i try to do is that I actually, it seems almost the immediate aftermath
00:35:22
Speaker
You're so busy there, and especially like with people like us, like the probate, the assets, the house, the car, all of that. Yeah, the business of death, and everybody is swooping in, but they move on with their lives, and they should.
00:35:38
Speaker
Like I respect, like you don't leave, but that's when you start sitting in it. And I think that for those of you who have loved ones and friends who have lost someone, yeah, definitely reach out in the beginning, but put it on your calendar. Like if it's a father or a mother, think about mother's day or father's day. If it's some a birthday, if it's six months from now, just to, simple so I want to share a quick story because I,
00:36:08
Speaker
wouldn't be married if it weren't for this. Um, so my wife, Kimberly Cantor, um, was someone who I knew about. She had started a nonprofit rainbow round up and, um, which is for families but with, with, uh, LGBT families with kids. And I was added as a resource as an attorney that helps those families. And then, so we never had really met.
00:36:34
Speaker
Ironically enough, we went to Plano Senior High together, but you know, that's a very big school. Well, because you graduated with 1500 of your best friends. Right. So we never met, but unfortunately, she has a yearbook with my least favorite picture of me ever. But anyway, so she had posted on Facebook that her dad had died. So I had reached out to her just saying, Hey, I'm sorry to hear about that because she's someone who I knew in the community. And but to try not to get emotional, but I am an emotional person. And then I didn't know what she did for a living at the time, but she posted this picture of this tree that kind of bent into a heart and said that she got lost on a drive during work and that she was used to talking to her dad on these drives and she got distracted and it was just something she wanted to share. So
00:37:29
Speaker
I sent a message to her and I said, Hey, checking in with you, um, saw your post. I would never compare my grief, but what I have found is you, you never know when it's going to hit you. And after I moved back to Texas, after my stepdad had died, I went down to Trinity university where where I went to college, which is the best college to ever go to. So I was like really happy to be there in this place that I loved. It was comfort.
00:37:58
Speaker
And I went into the bookstore and I was going to get some Trinity swag And I saw the sticker that said i'm a Trinity dad For some reason it just it it hit me and I had to go to my car And sob and call my mom like I don't don't know why like that Because I didn't have the guy I would get that for right so Anyway, i shared I shared that story with Kimberly. And then that was the that was the end of that story, because we just kept talking to each other, and now we're married with five million kids. But um my point being is that you don't ever know when those things will strike you. And I think really being being present and being aware, and I've had a few clients, because our job, and and I want to talk about this a little bit, is really to navigate this legal piece. like the The biggest mistake you can make is to get involved in the emotional part.
00:38:52
Speaker
Of this because that's not what they need. They need us to be the guide of how to figure out this legal piece um, but there's been a few that have kind of caught me off guard where I and I don't think there's any shame at least I don't And putting it on your calendar be like i'm just going to check in with this person And yeah I don't have any solutions. I don't have any answers All i've done is just send an email and be like hey, i was thinking about you. How are things going? And that means so much
00:39:22
Speaker
to anybody and especially if it if it comes from a person unexpected, like someone that was handling business. right Like that that can mean so much to families that it being from this like outside of the friend group, outside of the family member, like there were you know, here and there so many, especially after my mom died, there was, you know, the, the church that we went to at the time, I mean, it's still, it's the building still there, like, it's massive. um But I wish I at some point had turned around, but that was just way too intimidating at that point. So like, turn around and look at the people, um because she had an impact on so many people's lives. But
00:40:15
Speaker
it was very overwhelming at the time to like get inundated by all the all this stuff. But the people who would just randomly kind of check in like six months, a year, be like, hey, like how you doing? right yeah that That felt good. And some days, it and people I think people sometimes are worried to bring our people up because they're like, well, I don't want to upset them.
00:40:45
Speaker
And I'm like, you know what? If you bring up tears, they needed to come out. right And if you messaged me and I tear up because of it, i those tears needed to come out. And i I think I just have an ability to not cry anymore. My therapist and I have talked about it. It's like a whole thing. um I forced myself to to watch the 90s little women with Rhinona Ryder to like force myself to cry sometimes so that I can emotionally regulate. It's this it's a thing, the therapist and I talked about it. But you know, if I have an emotional response, that's not a bad thing. The tears needed to come out, you allowed them to. And I think that, you know, again, going back to our society, just like we just buck up and deal with things, is tears aren't a bad thing.
00:41:42
Speaker
an emotional response is not a bad thing. And if your message touched me in that way, that those feelings were able to come out, that's a good thing. That's a beautiful thing. And it's like, thank you for allowing that to happen. yeah So I think i mean all of my all of my friends date and stuff are in my phone. Because I have friends with dead people, and their dead people's dates are in my phone. And I text them, and I'm like, yeah how are you? And we send Tiff's treats, and our notes are the same back and forth. Today sucks, cookies help. No matter what, that is the message. That is great. Today is allowed to suck. No matter how many years it has been, cookies help.
00:42:34
Speaker
That is fun. And all, you know, all of my kids, like, I know when all of their dead humans dates are, and we start checking in, how do you want to honor this? I bring them just like I bring them snacks on their birthdays, I bring them snacks on their people's on around their people's dates, because today sucks cookies help.
00:42:53
Speaker
And that's okay. I like that today. Sucks cookies help. um So one of the the the last things before we um turn this around and get to the Sam Sarah segment that we always have.
00:43:07
Speaker
um and you know i Definitely, if there's, you know, thoughts you have for us because we're we're in the business of yeah the probate piece. But I wanted to to tell you a story that the rest of them have heard and I share a lot because it's very impactful. But you know, so probate, you know, when someone dies, you got to do something. You've got assets, debts, and stuff that are in the deceased person's name, and you got to get those to where they're supposed to go. Hopefully you have a will or a trust where they took charge and made those decisions. Now, of course, I i've had two dead parents that had nothing. It's been great. yeah Well, you know and one of those things, and I think the answer answers itself, is in the US, over 70% of people have no plan. um There's a higher percentage that have, you know they think they can do DIY and a lot of stuff, and we can definitely talk about that, but I think part of it, they give themselves a lot of excuses. It's too expensive. I don't need it, this and that, but I actually think it's just they don't want to contemplate
00:44:08
Speaker
the inevitable, um, which is kind of what we're talking about, but I don't get too hung up on that at this point, but I'm happy to go there.
Understanding Probate Law
00:44:15
Speaker
Um, but you know, our, our job is really just, if they, if they have a will or trust grade, if they don't, we've got to basically get the home, the bank accounts, the car, the life insurance, the credit cards that are in that person's name out of their name.
00:44:34
Speaker
And from a mechanical legal standpoint taking away all my human feelings because lawyers are not humans That's the job. And within the first few years of my practice, I was sitting at a probate hearing with a client where we' we're waiting to get the paperwork from the court. And I'm doing the normal walkthrough of, okay, now that you're the executor, you can contact the bank and get the bank account closed. You can do this and that. And he's just sitting there and he's like, I feel like,
00:45:07
Speaker
I feel like I'm a erasing her. Hmm.
00:45:12
Speaker
And, you know, I was in my late twenties, early thirties when he said that. And I was like, man, what is that? I mean, yeah, that's kind of what it is. And then as I've matured and lived some life and I get what he was saying, I don't discount that. But I think part of the grieving process is.
00:45:33
Speaker
I go back to my dad and if you look on our website, you'll see the reason why a red Pegasus is our logo and it has to do with him. yeah My first born daughter is Ad Lee and it was perfectly purposely spelled A-D-L-E-E Lee after him. um And there's all these different things where yes, there is ah no house in his name, no credit cards in his name, no bank accounts in his name, no assets in his name.
00:46:02
Speaker
But he is far from erased. You have other continued bonds. Right with him. You know, I think that's why, you know, we talk about, you know, putting these plans together. And I used to accept the fact that it was kind of doom and gloom, like doing your will and this and that. But what I've seen now is when people are doing this and they're doing it the right way and they're doing it intentionally, it doesn't have to be that way. It can be.
00:46:28
Speaker
empowering, it can be something that you're taking control of because the story that is going to be written about you, your final chapter to your legacy that's going to continue is what your family and loved ones had to go through when you were gone.
Personal Story: Estate Planning Chaos
00:46:43
Speaker
So my story and my husband's story will be two completely different stories. Because, you know, my dad, when he died,
00:46:55
Speaker
even though he knew he like, we knew he was sick. Like, that's what baffles me is like, nothing was put in place. And what my mom didn't know is that my dad didn't even put my mom's name on the house. Like baffles. Wow. So we like, had to file for bankruptcy to keep our house because we didn't even know things were happening. It's a whole thing. So like,
00:47:21
Speaker
That's what happened with our first house. So then you would think that my mom would have put things together. No. So then when my mom died, the house we lived in was still in my grandmother's name. And so I lost my house. And then there was this whole thing of, well, I inherited the house because my mom was in bankruptcy and my cousins got all the stocks. And so like,
00:47:49
Speaker
then the person, the people we were working with, they were like, well, Brenda, you can only take the things out of the house that you could justify are yours. And like the whole effing house is mine. I live here. Are you kidding me? ah it So, and it's like everything in this house is mine. And so that was what we were dealing with. So I'm 19. I'm a sophomore at SMU. I have a $7,000 hold on my account at SMU. So I'm just trying to go back to school.
00:48:19
Speaker
Now my I might, I, y'all, I was, went in as a grand kid. Like I did not pay to go to SMU. I had a single mom. Like this was a, this was a situation. I do have my snobby moments. So, um, I was not as typical as a new kid, but like I had my moments and everybody knows it. So it's fine. But like, this is what we dealt with. And like, then it, then there were a lot of situations that happened. The house ended up getting foreclosed on.
00:48:46
Speaker
My stuff was not taken out of the house like it was supposed to. My house was rained stacked. Stuff was stolen. It was a um my situation.
00:48:56
Speaker
It was a situation. My house was destroyed. And when I got to go back inside my house, the people who were in my house and had gone through my stuff, there was a. I forgot the guy's name. There was like this puppet.
00:49:16
Speaker
the head of this puppet was in one room, the legs were in another room. Like these people destroyed them. Oh my gosh, wow. So this is what 19 and 20 year old Brenna was navigating because things were not put in place. Therefore, and Michael's, my husband's parents and my husband, I mean, thankfully we were already dating and if that was, thank God. um So they saw that.
00:49:46
Speaker
and they have their mess together. Thank God. And every once in a while, like every six months or so, and we actually just had this conversation a couple of weeks ago, my mother-in-law was like, oh, my TRS got updated. Here's the highlighted thing. I made you a copy. Here it is. And so my husband is alike talking about it because it makes him sad, but it's, that's fine. I can deal with it. And so every couple of months I'm like, have you moved the wheel? Is it updated? What's going on? Is it in the same place? Where's the, like, what's the safe code? Are the things, where are all the things good?
00:50:18
Speaker
our stories will be completely different. And I wasn't able to start grieving my mom until like a year after she died because I was having to deal with all of this extra stuff. And that's why my brain is also so fuzzy.
00:50:35
Speaker
It's like, I don't remember a whole lot from this year. I got like a 1.9 that spring semester. Like, I'm surprised I graduated. But like, grad school was much better. I promise I know how to do my job. And like, I'm really good at it. Like, I promise. But like, undergrad, who needs poli sci when you're a therapist? So it's fine. No big deal. And I i don't need math. i I can add up my bills. It's fine.
00:50:58
Speaker
um But like that's part of why I'm so fuzzy, because I was having to deal with so much stuff and like work, because I had to like make money and like pay bills. But you know that's the importance of all of this. But also, like if people had looked at... I was having to make very, very... We had four storage units.
00:51:18
Speaker
Because I was like, I can't get rid of all this stuff. Like, this is my stuff. Like, what am I supposed to do? And so we weeded it down over all the years, 14 years. We have one storage unit now. It's mostly just because I have a lot of Christmas stuff. Because I have a position.
00:51:38
Speaker
Well, I grew up with a themed Christmas tree in every room of my house. i It's a situation. yeah And we've like rented and stuff, and so you know it's in a climate-controlled situation.
00:51:53
Speaker
um But you know the stories will be very different. So like when, in a very, very long time, this happens to my in-laws in-laws in 20 years, because they will live forever,
00:52:08
Speaker
because they have to. um When this happens, when they have lived a very, very, very long life, it's going to be less stressful because everything is in place. Yeah, for sure. And it's going to be fine. Yeah. And that's it's going to honor them. It's going to be less stressful for us. And I think it brings them a lot of comfort to know that. Right. To be like, our kids are going to be fine.
00:52:38
Speaker
Because and we talk about it sometimes they're like, what are you going to do with our house? I'm like, we're moving. we're We're out of here. Sorry, bye. We're selling it. Like, you're the only reason why we still live in Texas. um But um I mean, we joke about it. But you know, it's just it's very helpful. But continued bonds are also very important. So our my parents have they each have a shelf of their stuff.
00:53:07
Speaker
in our living room. Thankfully, my husband met my mom so he understands where the crazy comes from a little bit, but he didn't know my dad. My dad died when I was nine. I didn't meet my husband until I was 15. And so but but there are pictures of my my dad in our house.
00:53:24
Speaker
They're alive and well. We tell stories about my parents because my mom and I did some crazy ish that we shouldn't have done. I mean, the week that she died, we were like going down because she died the week of Veterans Day. We were like down at the VA a hospital. This was 2010. We didn't
Remembering Loved Ones
00:53:40
Speaker
have iPhones. And then the GPS stopped working. So we were just like, if you've ever watched celestial navigation from the West Wing, that episode, when they're just like following the stars to to get Mendoza out of jail, that's basically what my mom and I were doing at 9pm to get to the VA a hospital in Dallas. Like we stupid stuff all the time. yeah um But we talk about them. we We honor them in different ways. We have symbols that remind us of them. And so
00:54:10
Speaker
you know, it encouraging clients to have a way to honor and remember them, take a piece of their house with them if they're having to sell their their home. All right, what's a piece that you want to take? Right. How do you take a picture of it, frame it, have it in your new house, like things like that. um Because it can be hard. It's hard to say goodbye to those things.
00:54:35
Speaker
So I do want to circle back to the Christmas stuff because um this is a question that came up in our office. So, you know, since you have so much Christmas stuff, obviously you celebrate. So, ah Santa presents, are they unwrapped or wrapped? um Okay, this is a debate, but we don't have kids, so it's fine. So our Santa gifts were always unwrapped. Yeah. I think my husbands were wrapped.
00:55:03
Speaker
Okay, I don't remember the hours growing up were always unwrapped. So Sam here hails from New Zealand. And which is an office debate. but So that's not the debate. That's not the debate. Actually, apparently this conversation that was happening and And Sam said um something to the effect of, you know, I don't really remember, but we just would wake up with a bit.
00:55:34
Speaker
with a banana at the foot of our bed. Not just a banana, not a banana. Then it became a banana. Then it became a two liter thing of soda. Yeah. Yeah. Both of those things. and So in chocolate. So then, so then we're like Googling, is this like a tradition New Zealand? It is not. It was just something that they did in Sam's family. It was so we would have something to snack on before lunch. So we wouldn't like ask every three seconds if the food was pretty.
00:56:02
Speaker
Well, that's kind of smart. Yeah, we always, you know, we, we always got because our family's German, so we always got oranges and walnuts in our stockings. And so I did that the first couple years that my husband and I lived with his parents before we got married. um I put oranges and walnuts in stockings. And then I made really loud noises and things fell over one morning.
00:56:31
Speaker
And so we no longer do that because I mean, things fall over. And my husband was like, wait, why don't we just get candy that we like? And I was like, wait, we can do that. so of course you cant Yeah, um and you know, oranges, walnuts, I don't know about that. But in the stocking, that's somewhat normal. The foot of your bed, that's still something that perplexes me. But a lot of things about Sam perplexed me. But um anyway, just to you know, we were wrapping up like ahead yeah yeah no We weren't allowed to like cross this certain threshold because if we crossed then we when we came back we could see our stocking so we couldn't cross over the hallway to our parents room but but we could stay on this side of the hallway but thankfully our grandmother's room was on the side and the bathroom was on this side.
00:57:17
Speaker
So we just had to like wait for our parents to wake up. So we would like yell across and be like, are y'all awake yet? um But I was the youngest, so I would always wake up first. And so I had to go wake up my cousins and annoy them. And then whoever was on, whichever twin was on the bottom bunk, he would grab me and be like, no, we're going back to sleep because they were like teenagers by the time I knew what was going on. Like, we're so over this, we're so over this. Yeah, I mean, they kept like the magic of it. And they were like, no, surely.
00:57:48
Speaker
We're done. Yeah, we should do a whole episode on traditions. I have lots of feelings about this, but do it we really appreciate we really appreciate your time. We definitely want to talk about grief, definitely wanted to talk about things that um that people say.
Humorous Takes on Grief Comfort
00:58:01
Speaker
we We do something on our podcast where, um and they've they've been remarkably quiet, even though I told them to ask questions, um where Sam and Sarah have their own offering. And so they were going to talk about real quickly real quickly to wrap it up. Yeah. Real quickly they share some things that they too think are some of the worst things people can say. So, yeah a ter you you want to share this? Yes. So the first thing we have on our list to say to somebody who is, well, okay. So we have, we have two lists, actually one for when someone's grieving and one for when someone's pregnant.
00:58:44
Speaker
So I'll start with the brieflist. How is, if we did a Venn diagram, which Sarah is a big fan of, ah do any of these intersect? Actually, no. Interesting. So that's your perfect, so actually that's the perfect Venn diagram for Sarah is when they don't intersect at all. yeah That's actually her favorite type of Venn diagram. So is that how Sarah says it's a typo.
00:59:11
Speaker
was a typo The first one we have for grief is to just move on. Yep. Certainly the best thing to say. At least you're not the one who died. Oh, yeah, that's not good. Anything with at least is i my my favorite. Yeah. Yeah. um this but This one doesn't make sense, but we've been trying to read you about your car's extended warranty.
00:59:39
Speaker
It does make sense. They're relentless, even in death. They are relentless. Yeah, I love it. um This one is one that I will say a lot of, I will say to potential new clients, it's not on purpose, but I say, Okay, perfect. A lot is I'm like writing down notes. No, one time I heard her ask, Okay, and what was the date of death? Okay, perfect. I'm like,
00:59:59
Speaker
ah just reaction It's just reaction. Fantastic. Excellent. No, seriously, we actually had to have a conversation with a lot of the people at the office one time. I'm like, okay, whenever you're on the phone with somebody who just called about somebody passing away, there's a couple of phrases we need to not say at all.
01:00:20
Speaker
So I want you to know that we work a lot on what we say, like Ford facing the clients, but there are some things like internally where if someone will say, oh, so-and-so called and their mom died. And I'm like, oh, did she?
01:00:36
Speaker
chair Will? No Will? So yeah. Oh no, we think that we stay to ourselves. No, absolutely.
01:00:47
Speaker
Go ahead, Sarah. Is this one yours? This next one? Yeah, last one. Wait, wait. That's not the last one. There's two more. You told us not to do that one. No, yeah I don't like that one. Yeah, this is a nice one. So as a reminder, these are the worst things you can say to someone who has a loved one who passed away. Want to be my date to his funeral? I'm dead. Yeah.
01:01:12
Speaker
That's great, Sarah. Okay. so the Um, so Prognant. So this one comes from ah the great actress Blake Lively. Congrats on your little bump.
01:01:27
Speaker
Yeah, as she said, i was i who yeah and someone who has fertility problems. Yeah. Yeah. Did this happen? Am I out of the loop? No, it was real life. It like came out when the whole like, everyone's been bashing but Blake Lively recently thing. Oh, because of that, that show and yeah the movies and domestic violence and she kind of like sniggered and did a self promotion. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, what's next? ah Another terrible thing to say to someone who's pregnant is sorry to hear about that.
01:02:02
Speaker
But I think I would probably say that to a friend. but I mean, yes. And the next one we have is should be on purpose.
01:02:13
Speaker
but The next one we have is, oh, good luck. That's fair, though. It's hard. That's about it. You think you're tired now.
01:02:25
Speaker
Yeah. Right. Um, this one, Sam said, and I thought it was so funny. She said, I can't imagine having a parasite in me. Sam, it's a fetus.
01:02:39
Speaker
but Until my ability. I don't know. It's on your body. itly yeah yeah is My favorite thing when somebody tells me they're pregnant. I just look at them and like one thumbs up like fun. Yeah, we're happy. Okay. Woo hoo. I'm like, Oh, if they're in Texas, I try to do the math and if they're going to be in the final trimester during the summer, like, Oh, I'm sorry. that's Yeah. You don't want that. You don't like I'll go buy you a personal fan now. Yeah.
01:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, very good. Okay, thank you, Sam and Sarah. So the the last thing I just feel like we would be remiss and Sarah may edit this part out. But um we're, we're kind of neglecting the elephant
Conclusion: Taylor Swift Fandom
01:03:26
Speaker
in the room. And that is the degree of Swifties we all are. Oh, like I i will I will tell you like we went to the concert and had a private virtual last week.
01:03:37
Speaker
Night. But we did. Night. And the greatest joy was getting Sam to cry because she's saying death by a thousand cuts. Yeah, I sobbed. I'm surprised. We did this contest where I decided we had these extra seats and rather than selling them, which was my original thought, is I wanted real Swifties to be able to go. So we did a contest of people and they had to do certain things. um They had to say like their favorite album or which album represented them, their favorite Taylor Swift fact. And then what else did we do? Like just like their favorite song i think or something? Yeah. We had to put this on the video.
01:04:16
Speaker
And we had a whole judging criteria that I will tell you, there was one person in particular that we had to eliminate on behalf of Sam because she happened to say mistaken lakes. They didn't didn't know who they were talking to. That lover was the worst album. And you don't say things like that to Sam. No, that's bad. You just don't. So sad. No. Mediate zero. Just don't. Oh, no. No, you just don't. If you were one Taylor Swift album, which one represents you?
01:04:46
Speaker
At the moment,
01:04:51
Speaker
I'm very much like in my tortured poets department, like, all right, it's like, okay, like, yeah. Okay, Sarah. Yeah. I mean, I'm always 1989. That's always the vibe. Yeah. so Sam.
01:05:10
Speaker
I think the same. like team like If you don't say lover, I'm going to drive to the office right now. Lover. I'm so sorry. You didn't say favorite album. You said what era you're in. Who is? Okay. All right. Cynthia, come on. It will full always be reputation. um Right. Portrait poets. There's some that hit real good and real hard. Yeah.
01:05:32
Speaker
i I'm a 1989 girl. um I just have to say on behalf of my five year old, she is straight up reputation. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm like going back and forth between Georgia Post Department reputation. I just need that new album. Yeah. So I haven't ah because I'm Taylor trash right now. I haven't sat with it enough. But there's there's just feelings I have around 1989 that I think it'll always have to be. Yeah, be mine.
01:05:59
Speaker
yeah Yeah, well, thank you so much for joining us. We'll definitely have to have you again. Yeah, yeah and thank you so much and y'all have a fun day. Thanks for listening. And just to cover all our bases about what you just heard, I'm sorry and you're welcome. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode and tell your friends about us. We do webinars and live events.
01:06:27
Speaker
The best way to stay up to date is to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube. Links are in the show notes. If there's a topic you'd like us to cover, maybe you have a question you'd like us to answer, or maybe you just wanna say hi, hit the link in the show notes or go to birch-law.com forward slash podcast and fill out the contact form.
01:06:56
Speaker
much better. Yeah I thought that had a lot of energy.