Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
What makes a good horror game?
284 Plays3 years ago
In this episode, Satsunami and Adam tackle the age old question: what makes a good horror game? From the iconic ones to the unmentionables, we take a deep dive into the elements needed for these.
For more Satsunami content, please click here!
For more Chatsunami content, please click here!
--- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/chatsunami/message
Recommended
Transcript
Episode Introduction
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to Chatsunami. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Chatsunami. I'm Satsunami and joining me once again for another spooky episode is the man, the myth, the sinner sandwich himself, Adam. Welcome to the spookfest.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hello, hello. Happy Spookenings one and all. Good to be back. What an extra spooky episode. Do you know, I was actually just thinking about this the other day. How the last time we did a spooky episode, or rather one that focused on horror, other than Birdemic, that doesn't count. No matter how strongly you feel about it, Adam. It does not count as horror. Well, a romantic horror, is it not? We'll argue about this later, but you know my feelings.
Missing October Spookiness: Shaun of the Dead and Horror Films
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah, the last time we talked about horror properly was episode 3 of Chat Tsunami, so if you haven't checked that out, essentially it was just an episode about our views on horror games, which unfortunately we were unable to release it in October because we actually started the podcast in November. So we have missed a full month of spookiness with the podcast, haven't we? Are we gonna make up for lost time now?
00:01:27
Speaker
Exactly. We've got to get all the spookums in. We've got to get all the horror films in. We've got to get Shaun of the Dead on repeat in the background. You know what? I'm not arguing with that one, I have to say. I've already got it up. Well, of course, yeah.
Favorite Horror Games and Personal Journeys
00:01:40
Speaker
You're a super fan of it, which...
00:01:43
Speaker
So in that episode we discussed our... pretty much our favourite horror games, didn't we? Yeah. And we can... Can you remember mine? Here's a question for you. What were my favourite horror games? Was Half-Life 2 one of them? No, I brought that up as my favourite horror experience in a non-horror game, but Girls Are Gonna Pull! I'll remember. I'm just trying to remember. It definitely wasn't Outlast. I know you had Resident Evil. Was that one of them? No, it wasn't surprisingly. I am a fan, but I didn't pick that one.
00:02:13
Speaker
You know what, do tell. What were your favourite horror games? That's the first rule of podcasting, okay? You don't listen to your own product.
00:02:33
Speaker
and Alien Isolation. Of course, three classics to be fair. Indeed. So out of curiosity, jumping on from that point, what is your experience with horror games as a whole? It's a genre that I came to in, I feel I use this phrase every time on these podcasts now, but in later life.
00:02:50
Speaker
The late 20s now count as later life, but yeah, so I never really played them when I was younger and nor really in my teens It wasn't really until my kind of like early to mid 20s that I started playing things like slender and stuff in groups It was kind of fun to you know, like watch people get spooked and have a laugh at
00:03:06
Speaker
And yeah, kind of from there, I then started playing more than by myself. Like, got into the Resident Evils, played some Silent Hills, things like Observer and Alien Isolation, things like
Watching versus Playing: YouTubers and Horror Games
00:03:16
Speaker
that. And yeah, so I had a real, I had a real phase. And it wasn't a phase, it was a phase, Mum, actually.
00:03:23
Speaker
in my like as I say like in probably about my late 20s for a couple years where I really was into playing horror games I kind of gone away from them a bit now I still play the odd one every now and then but yeah I'm not I'm not as into that genre as I once was I have to admit I'm kind of on the opposite the spectrum I'm definitely more of a no pun intended for your favorite game but I'm more of a observer
00:03:44
Speaker
than I am like an active participant because it well I'm getting better now at playing them but when I was younger I used to be one of those people that would watch people on like YouTube play them and you know you would always get people who would have like the huge reactions they would go oh my goodness you know it's I don't know like oh it's a person from Outland
00:04:06
Speaker
that famous character, person from Outlast. Get him in Smash, come on, let's get that rounded. But you would get these reaction videos where all of these like famous YouTubers would play these games and I would watch thinking, ah this game isn't you know so scary and everything and this is kind of a moment that I do bring up quite a lot in the channel so I do apologise in advance Adam but
00:04:30
Speaker
One of the things that I do bring up a lot is one night where you and I played a lot of horror games together and I feel as if that is kind of one of the turning points where I've started to warm up a little bit more to horror games and out of curiosity do you remember the games we played that night? Oh well I remember we played the first Five Nights at Freddy's. We tried Amnesia and couldn't really get into it. Yeah.
00:04:56
Speaker
Did we play some Slender? Did we play some Slender? The Arrival? Like the one that's on like consoles? I think we did. I can't remember if it's the same night, but we definitely played it. I think we maybe went on to that after Nisja bored us to death. Yeah. I don't think it was this night, but I remember you playing some of it that Emily wants to play, but I don't think it was the same night from what I recall. I think that was a different night. Are you sure? Because I'm sure you and I had a mutual friend over as well who left. Oh maybe not.
00:05:23
Speaker
Because I'm sure he left just at the exact moment that we started to play, Emily wants to play. No, coincidence I ask. I think not.
Subjectivity in Horror and Influence of Hype
00:05:34
Speaker
No, I think I was out really. Four very distinct games under the same umbrella of horror, some better than others. And that's the thing though, horror is much like comedy.
00:05:47
Speaker
it's very subjective and it does appeal to certain types of people. You know like not everyone will be into you know like games where you know for example day by day like not everyone's going to be into the slasher horror kind of game, not everyone's going to be into the hide and seek aspects with
00:06:06
Speaker
Outlast, not everyone's going to be into atmospheric horror like Little Nightmares or things like that. There's a whole spectrum other than just the tagline, it's a spookum. Because I think that's the danger with a lot of these games, that people just try to go into them for the spooks.
00:06:26
Speaker
there's a lot of games like that where they have so much more to offer than just like you know oh it's just the spookums but because they've kind of like have you ever come across a game like that where the hype kind of overrides the game itself so like when a popular youtuber plays it like let's say Five Nights at Freddy's for example you know where every youtuber and their mother started playing that game is there any other game like that that you feel as if kind of got overrun with hype
00:06:56
Speaker
Well, I think Slender was like the very, Slender was only one of the first ones who got caught on, you know, and got people's attention and was like, like Five Nights at Freddy's kind of followed, followed that trend. I mean, I think Five Nights at Freddy's is the example I would use because it would have been, it would have been interesting to have seen what my reaction to it would have been if I'd never like seen any, if I'd just heard about it and never like seen anybody play it.
00:07:18
Speaker
You know, because by the time we played it, I was very well versed in exactly like what this game was and how it worked and, you know, like what happened and everything. And I even knew like some strategies for it and everything. So it would have been interesting to have like seen what my reaction would have been, have not seen all that, you know, the kind of buzz that was around it. So I think that's the one that I would say the hype really overran in the fact that it was kind of impossible. Like you really had to try if you wanted to go into that game blind, not to see anything. Cause it was so like, it was so omnipresent everywhere.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, it was like plastered everywhere on the internet, on YouTube's homepage. Before we jump into the main, you know, discussion of this episode, this is kind of the danger of horror games and I don't know if you agree or not but do you ever feel as if
00:08:02
Speaker
All it takes is one train setter to influence the other games. A bit like how FPSs go with, you know, like if you have Call of Duty and then a lot of other games after it because Call of Duty is so popular, then they start to copy it. And the same with Fortnite, you know, that a lot of games have a Battle Royale mode because of it. Like, do you feel as if the same applies to horror games?
00:08:24
Speaker
I mean like the horror gaming genre is one that I think is like I'm not saying game design is easy like at all but I feel like it's it's easier to make a horror game than it is to make like a first-person shooter or like a platformer or something so you know and it's fairly it's say fairly again again just to oversimplify but it's probably fairly easy if you know what to if you know what you're doing to like make a knockoff Five Nights at Freddy's or a knockoff Slender you know they're quite
00:08:48
Speaker
quite simple games in a way. So I definitely think while all gaming genres are definitely like hostage to popular trends, I think with in the case of like the horror genre for games, I think it's just the ease that people can just churn out so many like knockoffs of whatever games, you know, the fad of
What Makes a Good Horror Game?
00:09:06
Speaker
the month.
00:09:06
Speaker
Well, without any further ado, as we're kind of talking about these particular games, should we jump into the main topic of today? That of course being, what makes a good horror game? Let's do it. I'm wearing my brown trousers just in anticipation. And while I look at my own brown trousers, we are going to listen to some spooky messages, so we will be right back in a couple of minutes. Welcome to Shatsunami, a variety podcast that talks about topics from gaming and films to streaming in general interest.
00:09:36
Speaker
Previously on Chatsunami, we discussed Game of the Decade, Deadly Premonition, the romantic thriller, Birdemic, and listen to us get all sappy as we discuss our top 5 Christmas films. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can find us on Anchor, Spotify, YouTube, and all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated.
00:10:00
Speaker
We are Beer and Chill Podcast. Podcast where we review TV shows, games, movies, and whatever else takes our fancy. So what are you waiting for? If you're a cool kid like us, you're gonna listen to the Beer and Chill Podcast. You can get it anywhere from Spotify all the way to your grandma's radio. My name is Jan. And I'm Cricky C. And we are Beer and Chill.
00:10:35
Speaker
I don't know about you, but those were some spooky messages. Spooked to my core. And my brown trousers. But that's beside the point. So yeah, let's jump in. So today we are talking about what makes a good horror game. So I'm going to throw over the question to you because I'm just like that. I'm sorry Adam.
00:10:58
Speaker
So what in your opinion, what would you say makes a good horror game? I think that there's a lot of things that contribute to making a good horror game. If I was going to pick some of the most important ones, I would start by saying that there's a real importance in nailing the sound and atmosphere of your horror game because those two things really lay the foundations for everything else that's layered on top of it.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yes, I think those things are especially important because the sound and the atmosphere are the elements that really can draw you in and really hook you and put you on edge. That's ideally what you want. You want to be tense. You want to be put on edge when you're playing that. When I think of the horror games that I've really enjoyed, the sound and the atmosphere have been key parts of that. I think of something like Little Nightmares, just the really
00:11:46
Speaker
creepy atmosphere of that ship and you know the way the kind of like the light and the dark and just the like the environments themselves taking away like all the kind of the enemies and the monsters they're just like the really creepy like environment and the atmosphere of that ship really just like set me up completely to be spooked and to be drawn in and the sound as well like you know the ambient sound but also the kind of
00:12:09
Speaker
creepy music there's like a bit at the end of the um end of Little Nightmares as you're getting as you're approaching like the final boss battle yeah you might remember this but there's like a character starts to like kind of hum i don't know if you know as you're like exploring like the kind of upper levels of the ship and you just hear this really ominous humming it's just this like really simple tune but oh i remember like the shivers going down my spine and everything hearing that and my favorite horror game of all time and i
00:12:32
Speaker
I'm gonna probably bang on this game a lot in this episode, so apologies in advance, but a game called Observer, which takes place in this kind of like, well, majority of it takes place in this kind of crumbling apartment block, and it's like, it's kind of like Blade Runner inspired kind of like sci-fi setting, and you're investigating these murders throughout this apartment block, and there's like, there's creepy things going on, and there's kind of like almost like monsters like roaming around the building and chasing you and everything, and just the atmosphere of that game, that game was just dripping in atmosphere,
00:13:01
Speaker
You can imagine that just the way it looked and everything and just exploring this apartment block, I was just so full of dread and just like just anticipation for what was going to happen. And then again, those are the ambient sounds and everything just put me on edge. So I think if you can nail both of those key things, your sound and your atmosphere, then you're off to a good start.
00:13:19
Speaker
No, I totally agree with you. I think that, have you ever been on YouTube and you've seen those videos that, for example, in their original context, they're quite cheery videos and, you know, upbeat and things, and as soon as you add a sinister soundtrack to it, I think the example that comes to mind is the Mary Poppins trailer. Have you seen that, the horror edit? Oh, I've not seen it, but I've heard of it.
00:13:44
Speaker
Yeah it's, for those of you who don't know, it's basically just the Mary Poppins trailer but someone's put like a very sinister sound, like just, it's basically just an edit of the original Mary Poppins trailer with a very spooky soundtrack attached to it and it turns this film from being this very, you know, light-hearted and, oh, you know, spiffing.
00:14:07
Speaker
adventure into this grim dark horror thing. And I do think that sound design definitely plays a key part in these kind of games, and especially with building atmosphere. Can you imagine how underwhelming it would be if Little Nightmares didn't have those sounds in soundtrack?
00:14:28
Speaker
yeah like I mean you'd lose like that game would lose all of its like when I say charm you know obviously charm, the charm would mean something happy and good but like in the context of horror it would if you took away those parts of Little Mind Mouse it would lose all of its charm and identity and probably be a pretty like mediocre experience honestly. I'm just thinking instead of you know the grim humming and things it's just like the producer's I don't know child with his SoundCloud account it's like hey you want to hear my mixtape it's like um not in this game
00:14:57
Speaker
I don't want to hear the theme to Paw Patrol, please. I know, but in a total remix it's like oh god no, that's a horror in itself. But going from that point you just made, I'm gonna like take it back a bit and say that horror games for me, like to be a good horror game, they have to nail the basics. Like that's okay, it sounds like a weird one. It sounds like very general, but trust me I've got a point.
00:15:21
Speaker
yeah for me horror games definitely have to have like a fundamental understanding of what they want to achieve if that makes sense. You could create a horror game filled with jump scares and you know blood and gore and quote unquote realistic graphics and all of this but if you've not got a point to it you know it reminds me of there was a video I saw ages ago with them I think it was Markiplier. Have you ever seen his stuff?
00:15:50
Speaker
Yeah, you know that small indie YouTuber called Markiplier. Yes, in passing. And as you know he does a lot of horror let's plays which are really interesting because you get to see all sorts of horror games coming through.
00:16:07
Speaker
and some of them are obviously better than others, some of them are just like weird indie like short games and some of them literally emphasis on the short and I remember one particular video and it's always sat with me and I don't know why but it was this game where I think it was called the tunnel or something very generic but it was literally one guy walking through a dark tunnel
00:16:28
Speaker
and every couple of minutes he would get that scary image popping up and you know it would be a very loud screaming sound and all you hear would be the AHHH and he got to the end and I have never seen anybody so bored looking.
00:16:44
Speaker
in my life. Like a genuinely by the end of it he was just like okay that's fine. But that's the point like I'm making. It's one thing to take like all these stock images, you know stock sounds, mash them all together and be like yeah this is what we want to do. But if you don't have a point to the game then it's just a jumble really of noise and graphics isn't it?
00:17:07
Speaker
As you say, like if you don't have like a central hook, then you're just, it's just basically filler, isn't it? At the end of the day. And, you know, as you say, like, it's that way of like, I think real horror comes from there being like a kind of core, you know, there's like a reason for, there's a reason for that character to be there. Like the, you know, whether they're trying to escape or trying to find something or somebody, you know, but if you don't have any of that stuff, if it's just like random person walks through tunnel, blah, you know, something jumps up with them, then yeah, exactly. It's just a waste of everybody's time, isn't it? Yeah.
00:17:36
Speaker
Because I mean look at games like, I'm just trying to think like, I mean Five Nights at Freddy's, let's go back to that. That is just a simple game of a security guard who is looking after a pizzeria that has like, you know, it has some more going on under the surface and everything and
00:17:53
Speaker
that in itself is a very basic premise but at the same time it does elicit some spooks because there's that anticipation that the animatronics are going to get you, you're constantly on the watch and things, it's keeping you busy and that kind of basis is definitely a good starting point and I do think that other games like
00:18:16
Speaker
say outlast for example that sets up the game right away you know you're a investigative reporter who has been tipped off that there are spookums going on and this haunted asylum or I should really stop saying that because it isn't haunted yet but you know what I mean
00:18:35
Speaker
Yes, nothing. Nothing wrong here officer. You know, that's the hook. And then you explore and the atmosphere builds and things. And it is. It's a great experience all round. Well, for the most part, but we will get to that later on.
00:18:50
Speaker
Yeah, I feel as if those kind of games definitely knew what they were all about. And I mean, going back to one of your personal favourites, Bioshock, I mean that immediately drops you in, no pun intended. And yeah, it establishes the world, it establishes what your purpose is there, and basically how to survive.
00:19:09
Speaker
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Pacing, Player Agency, and Unintended Horror Elements
00:19:11
Speaker
I think the other like key element that I would say, so I think there's really three kind of pillars to this question from my perspective, which is you got sound, you got atmosphere, and I think the last one is pacing. I think horror games work at their best when sort of the developers and the game designers keep a very tight leash on the players actions.
00:19:30
Speaker
You know, some other games, it's better if you can like, kind of let the player explore and kind of, you know, to use that great phrase, play the game their way, you know, play the game your way. But I think for a horror game, like you really want to keep like, you really want the design to keep their hands on like the, you know, the tiller and like really control how the game's unfolding. And you really like.
00:19:49
Speaker
All games need good pacing, but with a horror game, you really have to find that sweet spot of giving the player moments of high stress and tension and horror, whatever you're going for. But you also need those points where there's just nothing happening. It's either a chance to allow the player to breathe and feel a bit of safety, or even let their imaginations run wild, let them run riot. Because as human beings, we often build up situations in our heads, like much more than they're ever going to be. If anybody's ever been to a job interview, for example,
00:20:19
Speaker
up in your head to be like the most stressful and the worst thing ever. You know, so often our imaginations are the best at like running riot and and like stressing ourselves out. But that pacing thing. And it's funny because I was thinking about this game that I played a few years back called The Sinking City, which is a kind of Lovecraft inspired game in the kind of Cthulhu mythos.
00:20:38
Speaker
And so it was like a kind of survival horror game, but it was set in an open world, taking place across this, like, city that was, like, basically sinking, as the title implied, and full of these kind of eldritch horrors. And, like, so basically you would kind of explore the city and you'd often have to go into, like, buildings and stuff, and there you'd get attacked by all these kind of, like, Lovecraftian monsters. The problem with it was that because it was an open world game, so you walk into a house and say you get attacked by these monsters. If it's just too much, then you just walk out the house and go somewhere else in the city, and you're like, you know,
00:21:06
Speaker
Really really undercut any kind of like horror that they were building while if I think of something like again I'm gonna bring it up if I think of something like observer that was such a tightly crafted experience that like it was very linear and I was there's not much like scope for the player to really explore that much you kind of little bit but you can't really go too far so like you're always kind of getting forced like down these paths and everything and like the designers have built it around so you have moments of like slow
00:21:30
Speaker
slow, you know, slow, nothing really happening. The atmosphere is kind of, you know, infecting you and everything. And then there's moments of high stress where you're having to run away, you're having to hide, whatever. And it did sit a fantastic job of like balancing those two ingredients. So I think that is a really crucial one. Honestly as well, I think horror games are the best when they're relatively short. Observer was only maybe about four hours. Like I think, I honestly think something like a four to six hour experience is probably the best
00:21:55
Speaker
a horror game because like that way it over overstays its welcome something like alien isolation just stayed which was just too long for me so it turned from being like a terrifying experience to actually quite like a frustrating one so yeah i think pacing is a really crucial element if you want to make a good horror game
00:22:11
Speaker
Short and sweet, essentially. I've actually got a question for you. Going off that point, what are your opinions on player agency in relation to all of that? Because I'm just thinking of games like, as we said before, like Little Nightmares, Outlast, Amnesia to a certain extent. But you know, those kind of games where you don't have really much to fight back with. You know, like Slender as well, that's another one. I mean, even Five Nights at Freddy's, the list could go on.
00:22:41
Speaker
Emily wants to play, you know. There's a lot of games you get where you're completely defenceless, you have nothing to defend yourself, and some games even go as far to say, listen, just don't fight them. Please, for the love of God, we coded this game for a reason. Don't fight them. Whereas there's some other games like Resident Evil and Bioshock and maybe Observer. I mean, do you get a lot of defences in that?
00:23:06
Speaker
I don't know, the observer is very much in the outlast mode. But yeah, what do you think? How does that fit in? It's a really good question. I think both approaches can work as horror experiences. I think there is something incredibly terrifying about not being able to defend yourself.
00:23:21
Speaker
and just having to flee and hide that there is like a special kind of terror in that so i think that's really effective just from the fact well i think as well from how popular that kind of subset of horror horror games are how many there are of that just kind of goes to show i think as well even if you give the player things to defend themselves with you can still craft a
00:23:39
Speaker
really, really terrifying experience. And a lot of that comes as well from giving the player ways to defend themselves, but making sure there's a lack of resources. So that's a big thing in a lot of the early Resident Evils and some of the early Silent Hills. There are weapons, but melee weapons break. There's not a lot of ammo. It's difficult to find. Enemies can be a bit spongy. So often it's that you're having to make strategic choices about is it
00:24:05
Speaker
worth taking the zombie out or am I better just trying to like duck and dodge around them you know and just like get on my way and everything and that adds a lot of tension as well and so I think you can do it and and like another one of my like a level that I've brought up quite a few on quite a few different episodes it's not from a horror game but it is a horror level at the Ravenholm level in Half-Life 2. Half-Life 2 is a first-person shooter so you know you've got a you've got a pretty good arsenal by the time Ravenholm is about just towards the end of the first half of the game so you have a
00:24:33
Speaker
fairly decent arsenal when you enter this like spooky like deserted town filled with all these like zombies and monsters and everything but it's a truly ter- I found it absolutely terrifying it didn't matter like how many like the fact that I had machine guns and shotguns and grenades and everything I was like absolutely like I was sweating it and everything I couldn't wait to get out and so it's totally possible to like to make a horror game out from either approach
00:24:56
Speaker
But it is that I think there is something special if you want to give like a player, like some agency to defend themselves and everything, making it like that lack of resources to force to get as an extra level. So you can't like, you can't only not only like engage with the terror of the situation, but you're like, God, I have to try and stay kind of rational to make decisions, which adds another layer to it. So even I think both approaches have the merits.
00:25:17
Speaker
I'm kinda just going to what you were saying there about Half-Life 2 being a first-person shooter first and foremost, and then all of a sudden turning into this horror experience. I think the other example I'm thinking of is Gears of War. Did you ever play the original one?
00:25:34
Speaker
The first one, because while the other ones did turn into the huge over the top Michael Bay action face, the first one, although it was kind of similar, because let's face it, it's big muscle men with huge chainsaw guns, and it's like the typical games that were kind of coming out for the Xbox at the time, but there's one particular level in that where you meet the Berserker, and
00:26:00
Speaker
Like, for those of you who don't know, the Berserker's like this huge creature that's blind but he can hear you and it's like this huge hulking mass and charges you. I remember the first time I saw that and I was terrified because I was like, throughout the whole thing, it was like, oh yeah, I'm just shooting aliens. Well, you know, that's a whole other point. But yeah, oh, I'm shooting these creatures and yay, I'm having fun and everything, even though it was quite dark and gothic to begin with.
00:26:28
Speaker
and then all of a sudden the way they build it up they just show you the creature's shadow and they show you like the guy getting tore like off screen but they show him or they like hear the aftermath of like just a regular guy bumping into this creature getting torn apart the screams and everything and you think oh my god what is
00:26:48
Speaker
what is going to happen to me and then later on in the series they kind of like diminish that impact to when it just becomes like another boss with a bigger health bar but at that time and that game it is done so effectively and it almost comes out of nowhere like it is as i said it's a dark game but i didn't expect that like i mean when you first played it did you expect that kind of level
00:27:12
Speaker
No, not at all. There's actually a lot, it's been a while since I played the first Gears of War, but there was actually quite a few of them. I think back to like the Krill as well, who are this kind of like Storm of Bat type enemy, which is almost like something like Dracula-esque, you know, in a way that you need to run from light source to light source, because you have no way to actually defend yourself against them. Like light is the only, light is your only real defense. And like, that's very horror inspired. And it was like a kind of shocking departure.
00:27:38
Speaker
It's a game that, as you say, you've been built up to be this hulking space marine, basically, who can chainsaw his way through swarms of aliens. To have that kind of sense of powerlessness, all your shiny guns and your big chainsaws can't do anything to defend you. It's that way of the rug pulled from under you, isn't it? It's kind of an example of horror games getting a bit more creative, isn't it?
00:28:07
Speaker
Oh yeah, and it's that way. It shows in a way kind of the ubiquity of horror in a way that you don't have to. Horror games aren't just horrors or it's not just for horror games per se. It is a genre that can be supplanted into another type of game, even if it is just for a brief stint.
00:28:25
Speaker
It just shows as well that it's not just a stereotype if you have to be some weedy person who has to hide in lockers to make a horror game. You can have a horror experience. You can make a horror game from people who are armed to the teeth with veritable arsenals of weapons. You can still make an effective horror experience.
00:28:43
Speaker
I mean just look at games like Dead Space where you do technically have an arsenal but at the end of the day you're eventually gonna run out of bullets. Exactly. Or you're gonna run out of resources and once that happens you're screwed. I mean it's the same for games like technically would you say that games like Bloodborne and Dark Souls would you say they're horror games? I don't know if I'd say they're horror games. They're definitely elements of horror to them. Especially Bloodborne. I bet Dark Souls is well in fairness but
00:29:13
Speaker
Again, like, you could argue that horror games, but I don't know, like, I would maybe say horror adjacent. Yeah. You know, like they are, in a sense, they're probably of their own, like, we now say Souls-esque games, don't we now? Yeah. Is that what we say now? For that, for that, that is what it's become. But definitely horror adjacent at the very least. They're, they are informed by, you know, different aspects of horror, whether it's like, you know, more traditional, like werewolves and things like that in Bloodborne or more kind of like mythical like creatures, you know, dark souls.
00:29:43
Speaker
What about games though that take the horror over the top? So I'm thinking of games like similar to what you were saying there about games that have hints of horror like for example Doom where you know it's like it's overrun with all these they're not aliens or demons aren't they? Demons. Yeah like would you include a game like that into the horror category?
00:30:05
Speaker
That's a really good example that you brought, because I was actually thinking about this earlier. From an aesthetic point of view, Doom is without a... If you just look at Doom, you're like, that's a horror game. As you say, demons from hell, they look like scary. I think if there were any other game, you'd be like, they'd be terrifying monsters and everything, and it looks like that. But I wouldn't say Doom's a horror game at all.
00:30:27
Speaker
and it comes down to that. It comes down to this idea of empowering the player. Doom is the ultimate power fantasy in so many ways. You're loaded up with all these ridiculous weapons. It's not a scary franchise. Doom 3 is the outlier in this one, but most of the main Doom games, they're not scary at all because you've got so many
00:30:46
Speaker
got like chainsaws and like super shotguns and bfg's and everything like that there's no reason to be scared because you can like rip and tear through the legions of hell at your will basically because you're almost like a literal god in in that sense but by disempowering a character you can make an experience so much more terrifying so something like Silent Hill 2 which is often held up as like one of like the great masterpieces of the horror of the horror game in the genre that's just you're just playing as a guy called James Sunderland who's just basically your average regular dude there's weapons in the game but
00:31:15
Speaker
you know, James isn't like combat trained or anything. So we swing, when he's swinging a pipe or a two by four, like it's that way, like you'd imagine somebody who's unaccustomed to doing it just like wildly. He's not very accurate with weapons, you know, not particularly good with them as somebody like that would be. But and just, you know, and like the enemies in Silent Hill 2 in many ways, don't maybe look as terrifying as the demons from Doom. But it's just that sense of you feel much more helpless as James Sunderland than you ever do as Doomguy, Doom Marine, whatever you want to call him.
00:31:41
Speaker
So just by that way of disempowering a character, you can just up the horror so much. Would you say that the further you do empower a character, like the more items you give to defend themselves, the less it moves away from, or sorry, the more it moves away from the horror genre and more into something else, like action, shooter, that kind of thing?
00:32:02
Speaker
completely. I just finished playing up Resident Evil Village last month and for the most part, that is a horror game. It's not a particularly scary one because again, I feel like they give your character a lot more weapons and a lot more chance to upgrade weapons and get ammo and stuff.
00:32:18
Speaker
But still, you know, there are points in that game where you're having to like, you know, you are running low on things and you're desperately searching and it can get quite tense. But there's a point in the game where you play, you take on the role of another character who's like a special forces soldier who's armed with grenades and flashbang grenades and tons of machine gun ammo. And the game just turns into almost something like COD Modern Warfare.
00:32:39
Speaker
at that point and it's just it's not scary you're just mowing through all these enemies that were like could be quite tense and scary to an extent like you know in the in the kind of when you're playing most of the game but they just rendered like cannon fodder you know because you're you're like you're you're geared up basically you know and everything so
00:32:56
Speaker
Completely like, I think the minute you empower the player to like defend themselves, or like even to the extent where it's not even like you're defending yourself, you're actually on the offensive. You know, you're taking the fight to like the demons or monsters or whatever it is. That just, the scares go. The scares got out of the window at that point, because why would you be scared? You know, the enemy should be scared of you. It's the complete reverse of it.
00:33:17
Speaker
Would you say though that kind of going to the opposite side of that, I mean, it shows you the spectrum of games that we're looking at here on, you know, in the horror genre, because look at Resident Evil Village here, where again, although it's considered to be a horror game,
00:33:33
Speaker
you know, as you said, you get all these weapons to defend yourself, you're able to, you know, at least put up a fight compared to something like Outlast. Like, if you swap them around, you know, do you think Outlast would be scary if you had a gun or a lead pipe or something to defend yourself? You know, it would probably be less intimidating than you're being able to defend yourself, but still, it's classed as, you know, a horror game, but kind of going on that point. Do you think
00:34:02
Speaker
there's maybe a case where there's too much of that, where the player doesn't get enough defence and it almost feels as if it's a bit unfair or it just doesn't work the same. I definitely think so. I think maybe one thing to say about a lot of these games that do completely disempower the player and there's no way to defend yourself at all, they kind of can feel a bit repetitive in a way.
00:34:29
Speaker
like you know it does kind of feel like once you've played one like once you've played a couple you've kind of you can kind of tell you know you're like okay like i know the deal with this it can be frustrating as well because especially sometimes you look around the environment some of these games you're like why aren't they just picking up this
00:34:44
Speaker
air just like swing around like you know so again and that that's a way like that kind of breaks your immersion because i think like all games are better when you're more immersed in them but especially i think a horror game if you can really put yourself in there like you know you that that's going to make it such a more scary experience but when you look around you're like why isn't he why isn't the character picking this up like
00:35:02
Speaker
Why can't you push? Why can't you block or something? I think it can be a very frustrating thing as you're like, it just seems unrealistic. And you're like, okay, fine. Maybe the character's terrified, but there does come that adrenaline thing, isn't it? It's not always flight. There's also some fight in there as well.
00:35:18
Speaker
So yeah, I totally think like it can be a bit like aggravating to me like, oh god, like I have to go and hide again. It depends as well, I think on the difficulty of something with like a game that I really liked the first half of and I thought was I thought maybe is one of the best horror experiences ever, Alien Isolation. The first half of the game is so tense and like anytime the alien shows up, you know, I was freaking out and like, you know, and that game gives you what you can't kill the alien.
00:35:43
Speaker
but you can defend yourself. There's a flamethrower you can have, which if you get off in time will make the alien flee, so you've got a chance to recover and get away and go back to what you're doing. And that was a really, really tense experience. But there's a point later in the game where you have to go through, and slight spoilers ahead here, so skip ahead 20, 30 seconds if you don't want to know, there's a point where you have to go through an alien hive.
00:36:07
Speaker
and it's such a confined space and there's a couple of aliens and basically there's no way to hide from them they're going to find you at points so you have to just basically save enough flame for ammo to like get through it and it was such an aggravating experience as i was like oh my god like right go into this little bit get my flame fur out you know blast away make a bit more progress rinse and repeat and it was just it i wasn't scared in the slightest
00:36:29
Speaker
I was just annoyed. So I think that's a real danger of that kind of hide and seek approach to horror. And I think repetition does kill what could be a good horror game. I'm just trying to think of other games that
Repetitiveness and Choice-Driven Experiences
00:36:42
Speaker
we've played. As we said before, and I know I keep bringing up Five Nights at Freddy's, but it seems to kind of encapsulate everything that's right and wrong with horror games in the way.
00:36:51
Speaker
Like, on the one hand, it's short, it's sweet, it's simple. You know, you can blast through it in a couple of hours. The downside to it is it's very repetitive. And once you've been jump scared a couple of times, because when you and I were playing it, we were sitting there like by the end of the night, we were just like, oh, we got spooked again. Oh, no, you know, it's not something that is engaging anymore. Like, as soon as you get that one cheap shot,
00:37:18
Speaker
Same with Slender, whether it was the eight pages or, you know, the new one, was that just Slender the Arrival? Yeah. Because there was a particular scene in that I remember where you're in a, I think it's a warehouse or a factory and one of Slender Man's proxies come after you, and what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to shine a torch in his face to like ward him off. And although that sometimes does work, there are like
00:37:44
Speaker
other times where, you know, you miss him or something and it just gets annoying that every time he keeps, you know, appearing in front of you or you just die and that's it. Like there's no recovery period, there's no nothing, you just, you're just dead. It's like there's no comeback from it, you just have to keep repeating over and over again the same thing
00:38:07
Speaker
I mean I think that was probably our issue with amnesia and I'm gonna touch the elephant in the room here so apologies if you hear it in the background. But yeah, I personally was not a big fan. We only played it for a couple of hours to be fair but I personally wasn't a big fan of it. But I'm gonna let you explain so I can get my car keys and run away. Has the mob come to your door?
00:38:32
Speaker
Smart move. I think the problem with Amnesia is, and I'll be kind to the game and say that I think when me and you were having that night of playing horror games, we kind of wanted games that like got the horror in early, got the scares. Amnesia is not that kind of game. It is a game that kind of builds itself up. And I don't think maybe we were in the right mood for it.
00:38:53
Speaker
that kind of more drawn out experience but like it just felt, from what I recall anyway, it just felt like nothing was really happening and it was one of these things where we had, it was like a key hunt, a glorified key hunt, we had to find things and it was like, what are we even looking for? It wasn't really clear what we were looking for and where to find it and it just got frustrating.
00:39:10
Speaker
I would second that. It was one of those games that... where'd I even begin with this? It's a slow burner, emphasis on the slow, where it's got the atmosphere and everything. And again, I do agree. I think if we were in the right headspace to tackle it together, then maybe we would have had a better time. But that's the thing. And going back to a previous point I made at the beginning, I think Amnesia is one of those games that was killed by the height.
00:39:37
Speaker
small indie YouTubers like PewDiePie and Markiplier and all of those. They played these games religiously when they came out, you know, making scare compilations or screaming into the camera and things. And that, I mean, for me personally, that gave me the impression that this was like a spookum game. You know, that immediately you were gonna get the spooks like right away. But yeah, the spooks never came. I was waiting at the window.
00:40:05
Speaker
wondering when my spooks would come but they never did. It was a shame though because maybe like maybe I'm not giving it enough credit but something else I would say and I think maybe this is more on the player rather than like the developers themselves but I think personally to get like the best experience of a horror game you have to do it in short bursts. Great.
00:40:27
Speaker
Like, unless it's like a game that's really short, they can do it in one sitting. So to kind of give context, last year in 2020, I streamed Outlast, Little Nightmares and Condemned Criminal Origins. Three brilliant games in their own respect of rights. But with Outlast and Little Nightmares,
00:40:47
Speaker
I was able to complete them in about 4 hours, give or take, in one sitting. For Condemcrum and the Lordegens, I tried doing the same and yeah, did not go well. I ended up sitting there for 6 hours trying to complete it and now I'm just sick of the game.
00:41:06
Speaker
And that's the thing. Condemned has a lot of really creepy moments like when you're in the shopping centre and all the mannequins come to life, when you're down in the basements of places. Things like that are really creepy but really interesting. But playing it for 6 hours straight was not the way to experience it. Would you agree with that?
00:41:28
Speaker
Oh, completely. I mean, because I played Condemned as well. And I did it in much more shorter bursts, and I enjoyed it far more than you did. And so I can totally see what you're saying. And I think that's the thing with something like Five Nights at Freddy's as well. I think that game would work best in about a 20-minute sitting. You know, 20 minutes, you get really scared, you get really freaked out, and then you switch it off and do something else, and then come back to it. And as you said before, we didn't. We stayed with it. And it was just like, ugh, OK, another jump scare, another death.
00:41:58
Speaker
Do it again. Oh, another jump scare, another death, you know. And it just lost all its kind of charm. So I completely agree. Short bursts are the way to play these games for the most part. And going back to like a previous point you mentioned, honestly, I feel like an interviewer just now, or like an investigator being like... Going back to what you said when you said you were there on December 5th. Colombo-ing me right now.
00:42:20
Speaker
Oh god, I wish I had the jacket for Columbo. One day, one day, I'll have the voice and the coat. Anyway, sorry, my childhood dreams aside. I'm just thinking back to what you were saying before, because you said about a good horror game should have characters or rather the players on a short leash and they should be kind of directing them in a certain way. What about games like Until Dawn, Man of Medan, you know those kind of story games?
00:42:50
Speaker
A base scripted kind of. Yeah, basically the horror games that David Cage wishes they could make. Choice driven ones. Yeah. I think they can work as well because I really enjoyed Until Dawn. I still think they are very highly scripted in that way that you are going to end up in a lot of the same situations. But I grant that you are writing that you do have more agency in who lives and who dies. Not that you always know exactly that that's going to be the outcome from your decision.
00:43:18
Speaker
So yeah, no, I think a choice driven experience can really work as well. And like that adds a more level of tension to affairs, you know, as you say, because you are like, God, like by making this character on this corridor, if I like killed them, you know, or what's going to happen here? So that definitely is a very effective way to do horror. Like, again, I still think it's in that way of like, it's still quite a tight leash. It's not as tight like observer or outlast or something like that.
00:43:42
Speaker
But still, again, it is quite like you are being very much guided through it. It's not like an open world where you can go and explore and stuff. But definitely, it's a good point to bring up a choice-driven experience because that extra level of your decisions matter really just adds a whole extra layer of horror to the proceedings.
00:43:59
Speaker
So, I was just thinking about games like the way you were talking about open-world games or, you know, kind of sandbox-y horror experiences. Unlike, you know, GTA, you have the Blair Witch Project, which came out a couple of years ago. And that, of course, is, you know, that's the point of the Blair Witch Project. There's like a huge forest
00:44:19
Speaker
where the characters themselves get lost but in terms of the game it goes back to your point of you know you get really frustrated with it because there's like just so much going on and you need to like certain items to like continue that's the thing it's again going on to this idea of repetition you're doing the same thing over and over again until you eventually progress but by that point you know you're sick of the game so when something does like pop out you're like
00:44:49
Speaker
oh okay you do know I've been in this wood for like for like 10 years now and they're like yeah we know you know and that's the thing though it goes back to your thing of like repetition ruining a game and yeah I feel as if that kind of dulls the experience which it is a shame because it can kill off some really memorable experiences. Oh completely like you know um
00:45:12
Speaker
As I said, like I always hold up alien isolation as the example of that. And what I thought was absolutely fantastic, like concept and a game that was like the first half was, was executed flawlessly, just was basically almost ruined in the end because it just, it just outstayed its welcome. And it was just frustrating and it's really a shame.
00:45:31
Speaker
Did you ever feel like that in other games though? I'm just trying to think of games that, again, the developers give the player a little bit more freedom to fight back, like Dead Space for example, or Condemned. Did you ever feel bored with that to the same extent?
00:45:49
Speaker
Not to the same extent as Alien Isolation, because I didn't find those games as frustrating. I certainly find with some of the Resident Evil games, especially some of the later ones, especially Seven and Village, they do start to get quite combat heavy towards the end, and that can become quite repetitive. I know it's frustrating, per se, but it can become very much like you're trudging one room to the next and then, oh, another swarm of monsters to kill here and stuff, and it kind of
00:46:17
Speaker
It just seems to be a thing that those games kind of resort to. After a while, it becomes, you're just like, oh, it's a shame because it kind of, it kind of loses the charm that it had, the game had as it becomes just like a kind of like a box handed shooter. And then you start to notice that the shooting controls aren't that good. Like, you know, which is actually something that can be quite good early in the game because it adds the tension. But when you're like fighting swarms, I'm like, oh my God, like, you know, these shots are missing. So yeah, like not to the same extent as Alien Isolation, but like it is a common thing in
00:46:44
Speaker
in horror games is they they almost kind of almost want to like transition into a different genre and you're like no just distaste know what you're doing it's actually good don't don't be like a mediocre don't be like a below average version of something else no that completely makes sense because i'm just thinking of when Resident Evil took that shift and i think it was probably around Resident Evil 5 maybe yeah
00:47:07
Speaker
yeah especially you know the boulder punching which i would have like put a spoiler warning but i get the feeling that everybody knows that scene whether they're Resident Evil fans or not but yeah like unless you've been living under a rock but the chances are that rock was uppercutted yes
00:47:24
Speaker
I mean, you're not wrong, yeah. That rock is in the atmosphere by now, the amount of times it's been punched. But yeah, that's the way it seems to have gone. And even games like... I mean, granted I haven't played many Silent Hill games because I am terrified
Combat's Effect on Horror Identity
00:47:38
Speaker
of them. I do think, like, I have seen other people play them and it does, like, build up a huge atmosphere. But one of the games that I did notice people panning was Silent Hill Homecoming, which seems to take a completely different approach.
00:47:52
Speaker
still got the horror elements, and oh, it's got Pyramid Ted, which, yeah, you know, there's a whole, like, fight about that, about why Pyramid Ted after Silent Hill 2 makes no sense, but you know what, we gotta get those Funkos in. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, yeah, like, that seemed to be a bit more combat. I think, like, it still had its
00:48:12
Speaker
Like, don't get me wrong, it's not like Resident Evil by any means. Like, I'm not saying, oh, it's turned into Resident Evil, but it does seem like a lot of horror games either are going in one direction or the other. They're going in this sense of, do you want the player to have nothing or do you want them to have something? You know, it's the blue pill, red pill kind of thing. It's like, do you want them to have, is something to defend themselves with or do you just want, just like a running simulator?
00:48:40
Speaker
horror games can often fall into that the trap of well it's not really a trap but one of the big fundamental problems with like the horror gaming genre is they don't always make the most money yeah you know out of there not always it's not always the most popular it's not always the ones that like as I say like get the highest sales compared to things like shooters or you know your your quote unquote action adventure games so almost a lot of horror
00:49:00
Speaker
especially the mainstream horror titles tried to almost lean into that genre and the Resident Evil games became that for a while. Five really started flirting with Action Adventure and then six was like by the time of six they were fully married together and as much as six is the worst Resident Evil main series Resident Evil game I think it's still the one that's probably sold the most and sold the best.
00:49:20
Speaker
It's an action-adventure game that is more attractive to people, you know, to bulk of people than like a survival horror experience. So I feel like they get caught in that way of developer publishers and developers are like, well, we want this game to sell. It's that way of what's popular. Action-adventure is popular. People like those kind of games like You're Uncharted and things like that. Let's lean into that, you know, and introduce a lot more elements. And as you say, Silent Hill Homecoming was the prime example of that, where I think that's the game where you can combat role.
00:50:06
Speaker
Was Homecoming the one that they had the psychological profile, or was that another one?
00:50:12
Speaker
I can't remember. I'm going to be like, I can't remember who it might have been, but yeah, I can't. Because I remember, and I have to admit, until Dawn did this as well, probably better, but they did a thing where they basically asked the player a couple of questions and they say, what are you afraid of? Wink, wink. Are you afraid of this? Are you afraid of that? And then they taper the experience based on that. You know, like, oh, you're afraid of clowns. And then in the next chapter, a clown's going to pop up. Are you afraid of spiders? I mean, who isn't?
00:50:41
Speaker
you know spiders are gonna pop up that kind of thing and I think that is really good but would you say and again I'm sorry I'm hitting you with the hard questions today would you say that there is like a danger of these kind of games being too ambitious I think that's a really good point and I think you're completely right in that way of do you mean in the sense of like having like big locations and like high-end like graphics and like different gameplay styles and was that the kind of way that you mean like
00:51:10
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose if it's a successful horror game, it would build on the success of its predecessor, but at the same time it says, right, we're not just going to have the same game as last time, we're going to put in mechanics.
00:51:27
Speaker
X, mechanic Y, you know, put a little bit of Zedge, we'll sprinkle that on, we'll, you know, make it bigger, better, bombastic, we'll make it... basically a former shell of itself. Because I have to admit, like, going back to Resident Evil, if you compare Resident Evil 1 to Resident Evil 6, like, the two seem like completely different games. And it's like the same as well with, this is a favourite example of yours, with Dead Space 1 compared to Dead Space 3. I was just thinking
00:51:57
Speaker
that. Because this is the thing, you made a great point there about how external factors can ruin what makes a good horror game, especially games like Dead Space as we were saying there, Dead Space 1 versus 3. Dead Space 1 is this very claustrophobic, dark, gritty game where you're fighting through this abandoned spaceship versus 3, which to the best of my knowledge is just a shooter.
00:52:26
Speaker
it basically is. It is that third person, like almost cover shooting. Yeah, it is almost cover shooting from what I recall. In that sense, I completely agree that ambition, the ambition of wanting to be a really successful top of the sales chart title can completely destroy what makes a great horror experience because you're trying to cater to a much broader audience. Not everybody's into horror,
00:52:51
Speaker
So, you know, there's like, let's downplay these elements and Resident Evil and Dead Space are the absolute prime examples. Silent Hill as well, I think to an extent as well. But those are the absolute prime examples of that, of like that, you know, say selling out, but it is almost like selling out, you know, in that sense, I think as well, in terms of ambition, I can sometimes be a danger of a sequel to a horror game, like almost trying to like one up itself, you know, one up.
00:53:14
Speaker
I think I'm outlast in that regard. I've played Outlast and I played his DLC, but I've never played Outlast 2. But from what I've seen and what I've heard, Outlast 2 just seemed like the key point when they were designing the game. How can we top everything that we did in Outlast 1?
00:53:31
Speaker
like you know i'm sure a lot of games think that but it was just like how can we top the gore like how can we like top the shock value and stuff so a famous example is very like one of the first enemies that you meet in the game like if the enemy catches you like throw you to the ground and like sorry for the explicit imagery coming up here but they have a giant axe which they'll slam into you that your character's groin
00:53:52
Speaker
to rip out, you know, and you're kind of like, well, I feel like I've seen everything in this game now, you know, shocked as you might be in the first instance, you know, like, where's there to go from there? You know, that was like zero to 100 in like a second. You know, there's that way, there's no pacing, there's no buildup to anything like that, no buildup or anything at all. So I think there can be a danger of that as well of like, just trying to be like, how can we just one up ourselves to the extreme and ruining your game in that sense?
00:54:18
Speaker
I totally agree with you there because I've seen the playthroughs as well and I've seen a lot of streamers play it as well and it is. Although Outlast 1 is gory, it almost feels as if there's a purpose for most of it. Not all of it, there's some bits you're just like why is this in the game to begin with.
00:54:41
Speaker
utilation and everything but it's like a basic premise you know it's a reporter goes into a haunted or no i keep saying haunted there's no go well there is one ghost but yeah i mean there's one casper lurking around but
00:54:59
Speaker
He is a ghost, but he's not friendly. He goes into this asylum, just with the sole purpose of trying to figure out what's going on, and it's a simple plot. For Outlast 2, they do a similar thing where it's like a husband and wife duo.
00:55:14
Speaker
so how to put this nicely there helicopter crashes and they end up in this like very fundamentally religious town it doesn't hit the same chords i would say like from what i've seen of it it just seems gorier it seems you know just more disgusting
00:55:32
Speaker
And this is the thing because I think Dead Space 2 did a similar thing for its marketing where they did a thing where it was like they got people's mums in. I don't know if you've ever seen this advert but they got people's mums in to like watch clips of Dead Space 2 and the tagline was something like, oh Dead Space 2 is so gory that your mum won't approve of it. Like a very weird advert.
00:55:56
Speaker
you know like why would your mum be watching you playing Dead Space but anyway I digress but that's the thing though it's as you said it's trying to build up on what came before it and you know you've obviously if you've got like a hit game you've got to usurp the previous one you've got to say what's going to happen in this game that's going to you know shock the people leaving further
00:56:18
Speaker
And if that means more gore, then, or, you know, more action or more set pieces that kind of show like a more bombastic side of it compared to just having like a silence, low experience, then yeah, that's just gonna detract from what makes a horror game good.
Key Elements in Horror Game Development
00:56:37
Speaker
So just as a final, you know, talking point to wrap up for the night before we go trick or treating, I shall tell a lie.
00:56:46
Speaker
There's still time. There's still time. I know, who am I kidding? I'm acting as if we're like 12 years old all over again. It's like, no, we're on the other side of the door where we turn off the lights and then eat all the candy, you know? Yeah, as a closing point, what are your final thoughts on this topic?
00:57:08
Speaker
So I would reiterate that for me, the three, if you want to make a good horror game, focus on sound, atmosphere and pacing. And I think as well, I would also posit like for any game developers or feature game developers listening to this, I posit two questions to consider if you're making a horror game. Number one is think about how you're going to sustain the horror, because we've kind of discussed this before, but a lot of games that maybe start off as horror games lose that.
00:57:34
Speaker
You know, for whatever reason, things like Alien Isolation or some of the Resident Evil games, Five Nights at Freddy's. It's a very difficult thing to keep and sustain that horror for a whole gaming experience. So that's a key point I would think about. And number two, I'd also say, well, how are you going to compel your player to keep playing? Because let's face it, if a game is far too scary, then like, you know, you're going to turn it off, aren't you?
00:57:55
Speaker
you know in the day like you're gonna be like oh well what's the reason for me to carry on but if you can if you can create a compelling narrative or like a satisfying gameplay loop or whatever it is something to keep a play like a good pacing you know this it doesn't feel too overwhelming you can get your your player to keep progressing through into experience the whole game so think about those two questions as well because i think they're very key as well to to making a good horror game
00:58:19
Speaker
I feel as if the central question really that we're coming away with today is why? Why should this horror game exist? Like especially as you said if anybody's listening to this and trying to write down tips furiously please pause and
00:58:35
Speaker
think of that does but yeah you've gotta ask yourself why this game's created like what is the main objective of it because I mean I can sit here as like an armchair gamer you know and be like I want a horror game with you know deep plots and you know spookums and jump scares but I also want robots and guns yeah you get a lot of people like that who want like contradicting things yeah
00:58:59
Speaker
which is why we've got Dead Space 3, but that's beside the point. They analyse the issue. It's like, why are you making this game? Are you making it to spook people? Are you making it to provide a richer narrative for your world? Like, for example, Slender, which I have to admit, while the arrival, I wouldn't say it's great, but at the same time, it's not the worst. I appreciate it for them trying something different, if you know what I mean.
00:59:28
Speaker
It's all fair and good for people to be like, oh, it's a terrible game and things, but the fact they tried a story like says a lot about it and I admire them for it at least taking a stab at it because there's nothing worse than a game being lazy, especially with its horror and just saying, oh, look, a jump scare. There we go. I mean, one of the worst jump scares I ever had, fun fact, you know, Chatsunami exclusive here was when I played the original and not the original, but Call of Duty 3. Did you ever play that when it came out?
00:59:57
Speaker
Yeah, no, I play that on release. Do you remember the very first mission where you go into the abandoned house and one of the enemies pops out and like grabs your gun and you're supposed to mash like circle or B or whatever console you're playing on? That made me jump out my skin, could I just say? Because I was just expecting, oh, you're going to shoot people and that's it. And it used to terrify me every time because I never knew when they were just going to, you know, jump out and get you. You know, again, that's not a horror game. That's horrors of war.
01:00:26
Speaker
I don't want to undersell the war too bad. I mean at least it's better than the horror that came after it, that of course being the zombies franchise, which is we're not unpacking that mess. You know like even though that is like a spin-off of it, that's another example as you said of like giving too much power to the players and you know you can gun them down and it just becomes a power fantasy. So to kind of like summarize my long-winded ramble there,
01:00:55
Speaker
Yeah, like why is the horror game being created? You know, that's the central point here. And then after that, yeah, you just got to make sure you build up the atmosphere, the sound design, basically everything you've touched on Adam. I'm just stealing your notes now at this rate.
01:01:15
Speaker
But you did, you made a lot of great points there. Would you say that it is an interdependent relationship between the players and the developers, that the players have to give feedback and let the developers know what's working, what isn't working? This is a perfect world I'm thinking of, because I know at the end of the day, not everyone likes horror games, and if it was up to the player base, they would probably want a shooter horror.
01:01:43
Speaker
like hybrid. Yeah. In a perfect world we would get the perfect horror experience with VR and robots and all of that good stuff. On that final spooky note, thank you so much Adam for joining me once again in this episode. You are most welcome. I'll be off to go change my trousers now. Another pair soiled for the year. But that's why you wear brown trousers. I mean
01:02:05
Speaker
I own the own brown trousers. I know, you've got to speedrun this spookum. This spookum atmosphere. What is it they say in speedruns? It's like soiled percent or something like that. Speedrun. We've got to get that horror groove going on.
01:02:21
Speaker
But as we go away and we search the bibles of Netflix for the next spooky horror, once again everybody, thank you all so so much for joining us on this discussion on probably what you're going to be playing next this month. And as always, stay safe, stay awesome, stay hydrated and please don't eat too much trick-or-treating sweets because I'm probably going to hear it a mile away. Do you know what you can do? Just mail it to us.
01:02:50
Speaker
Just write chat tsunami in an interlope, and then post it. Trust me, we all know. We all know what's coming to us. Don't you worry. Don't eat too many trick or treaters either, that's bad for your digestion. I mean, that's true. From personal experience, I would say that's true. That's why I've turned off the likes these days, you know? Terrible business, yeah. Not as many kids on my lawn, but yeah. Anyway, on that depressing note, stay safe, stay awesome. And most importantly, do not get spooked. Bye guys. Bye bye.