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The Unfair Expectation with Dr. Pam Ross
12 Plays4 years ago
In this week's episode, I have a special guest who is no stranger to the podcast, Dr. Pam Ross. We sat down and had a conversation about microaggressions and the unfair expectation placed on black people in the workplace.
You can follow Dr. Ross on social media at:
Instagram
Facebook
Website
Also check out her new podcast The Culturalist, Conversations with Pam Ross.
If you want to send me an email you can email me at [email protected]
If you want to follow me on social media here's where you can find me:
Instagram
Twitter
Facebook
Recorded, Produced and Edited by Éliane Anita
Track Produced by Devo Beats
This is a Relevant Media production and Podcast
All links are embedded and can be accessed by clicking on the title.
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Transcript
Introduction & Guest Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to the Eliana Nita podcast, the podcast created to inform, challenge and empower you. Now let's get down to business.
00:00:24
Speaker
Hi guys, welcome to the Alien Anita podcast. I'm your host, Alien, and I'm so excited to have you join me for today's show.
Understanding Microaggressions in the Workplace
00:00:32
Speaker
Today I have a very special guest on and her name is Dr. Ross. She is no stranger to the podcast. She was on a couple of years back and she talked about mentorship.
00:00:43
Speaker
And today we're going to talk about microaggressions in the workplace and just microaggressions in the world. So I think that this is a really good podcast to learn about a black woman's experience in the workplace and just in the world in general.
00:01:01
Speaker
And I think that anybody can take this information and learn from it. So I hope you guys enjoy this week's podcast. If you want to email me, you can email me at alienanitashowatgmail.com. If you want to follow me on social media, I am alienanita on all of the things. And so I hope you guys enjoy this podcast. Let me know if you do. All right, let's get into the show.
00:01:28
Speaker
Hi guys, welcome to the Alien Anita podcast. I'm your host, Alien. And today I have a very, very special guest.
Introducing Dr. Pam Ross & Topic Overview
00:01:36
Speaker
She is no stranger to the podcast. You guys know her as PR the builder. I know her as mom, but officially she is Dr. Pam Ross. And we are going to discuss a subject entitled the unfair expectations. Today we're going to tackle microaggressions. So doc, would you come in and introduce yourself?
Dr. Ross's Career Journey
00:01:58
Speaker
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for inviting me to this table. I feel extremely, extremely honored to have this conversation with you. I've worked in
00:02:08
Speaker
the nonprofit sector, but also in for-profit sector. I'm a whole grown woman, as they say. And I'm a black woman. So I've been working in various contexts with various types of people and also serving on boards of directors and
00:02:30
Speaker
on several different organizations. And for some reason I have been blessed enough to be the breaker in many of the arenas where God has placed me, which means I'm the first person who looks like me to come in the room or sit in that office or sit in that seat or be on that board. So I'm just extremely, extremely happy to be here. And of course I am a student of culture. I love to examine why we do what we do,
00:02:59
Speaker
what our norms are, where did they come from? And not everything is founded in righteousness. So let's fix it. Oh, yeah. And we have a lot of fixing to do. You can't fix it. You don't address.
00:03:18
Speaker
I agree. I agree. So I want to tell you this
Hair Discrimination Stories
00:03:22
Speaker
story. I want to share with you and the audience this story that I experienced at work. I have worked because of the industry that I work in. The industry is mostly white male dominant. And so women that get an opportunity to rise to ranks.
00:03:41
Speaker
are usually white. And if you're black and you rise to ranks in the STEM based program, which I'm a Keman. So for me, I would have to actually start my own lab and work my way from there. So it's very rare that you would see a black head of anything in a company that's white male owned or white male dominant. So
00:04:01
Speaker
I came, we had a new hire and her hair when she interviewed was rainbow colored. And then, oh yeah, she came, it was rainbow colored. And by the time she got the job,
00:04:17
Speaker
It was blue, and then the next week it was purple, and then the next week it was, and then, you know, it was so funny because around Christmas, she dyed her hair red and green. And so it was just all these fun, really vibrant colors. And it was celebrated. They hired her, they liked her, and it was no questions asked about whether or not she could do the work, whether her hair was ghetto, whether they thought it was great or whatever.
00:04:44
Speaker
But when I locked my hair now, I had been with a company for six years when I finally decided to lock my hair. And they had so many issues with me having my hair locked and I got a lot of flack for it. And so I feel like flack look like I mean, what did what did it what? How did it present itself to you? Because it can be a little sideways. It can be indirect.
00:05:11
Speaker
Oh, yeah, for sure. So first, everybody wanted to touch my hair. It turned into a pet and zoo. So I was a pet and zoo. Please don't do that. Yeah. So I was a pet and zoo, like, oh my gosh, how did you get your hair like this? Now, keep in mind, I work in a company, and particularly my lab, I'm probably one of the only four Black people in the building. And two out of the four Black people work.
00:05:41
Speaker
at night. So the other girl works during the day with me. So here I am and they're like, oh my gosh, look at your hair. Can we touch your hair? How did you get it like that? Oh, your texture, you gotta, it must be nice and coarse. And then even upper management, when I was looking to get a promotion, they, their whole thing was like, oh, but the parents have, your appearance has to be up, has to be up to par. And we work in a lab
00:06:10
Speaker
with dangerous chemicals all the time. So nobody is really dressing up ever. And the thing that they most was referring to what I found out later was that they was referring to my hair because they didn't believe that my hair was professional. Yeah. And they they didn't know how clients would respond to my hair being its texture or being styled in a certain way. And so for black women, especially for black women, we often face this microaggression of
Judgment Beyond Work: Appearance and Demeanor
00:06:40
Speaker
Am I up to part? So it wasn't about whether or not I can get the job done. It wasn't about whether or not I knew my stuff or if I had the experience to get the job done. It is like I've often found in the workplace that for black women, it's never about your work first. It's always about, are you the full package? Do you talk correct? Or do you sound like a white person? So if I pick up a phone and I call you, do you sound black?
00:07:09
Speaker
Do your hair fit the standard? Are you the angry black woman? Can you communicate yourself without being the neck roller, eye pop, finger popping, eye rolling, that kind of thing? Can you fit this perfect mold? And so for white women, I've noticed that they can be subpar.
00:07:34
Speaker
and fit the category for them, and it'll be perfectly fine. And so that's a struggle. I've always struggled with that. And I was like, it doesn't matter how good you are. Honestly, as a Black person, you don't really ever get judged for your work. And every time I've ever had a review of any kind, I can get all excellence on the work that I do. But it's like, oh, you didn't come in and speak to everybody.
00:08:03
Speaker
Well, I had six thousand things I had to get done. Yeah. I couldn't go around and say, hi, I spoke to the people that I ran into, but I wasn't going around the lab just speaking to everybody, you know, or oh, it's proof that you're not unfriendly. Yes. Yeah. So I know I'm chatting, but you tell me how you feel about that or if you had experiences like that in your workplace.
00:08:27
Speaker
Absolutely.
Cultural Biases in Professionalism
00:08:31
Speaker
Let me first of all tell you how I feel about that. It really comes from a love of people expecting you to make them comfortable with you.
00:08:43
Speaker
And they're putting their discomfort on you to fix, rather than ask the internal questions and do real work in their own souls.
00:08:59
Speaker
about why am I uncomfortable with this person? And so you come into the room and you're looking different from differently or you have a different look than what they're accustomed to. That's not how my family looks, my mom, I didn't grow up around people who look like that. Plus, Mia has already given me some expectations that I've gobbled up like fresh baked cookies, right? So now I have these expectations that you're gonna be angry or different equals bad.
00:09:27
Speaker
rather than different equals different. Isn't that interesting? So now I'm looking at you and I'm expecting you to prove to me that you're not a bad person, that you are a friendly person, rather than me taking you at face value the way I would anyone else. And so the idea that someone with rainbow hair
00:09:52
Speaker
is considered professional. And then if you lock your hair, which is for those of us that maybe you're not black, maybe you're listening to this and you're wondering what on earth, that's a term, lock your hair is a term that we use when we're talking about the beginnings of dreadlocks. So your hair is in coils, right? So my hair is in coils right now. So your hair is in coils.
00:10:12
Speaker
So first of all, the fact that you would assume that my coils are not as professional as the happy unicorn in the lab, right? It is because you're judging, you are culturalizing
00:10:35
Speaker
professionalism based on your personal culture, not a professional culture, your personal culture. Exactly. Companies like that, really what they need to do is just let's just redefine what professionalism is. Is it coming into the room and having to greet everyone? If so, then why isn't everyone doing it?
00:11:00
Speaker
Right. Right. So the idea is I can't be the disadvantages for folks who are listening and they're wondering, like, what's the problem? The problem is the disadvantage that you have as a black woman, as a woman of color, is that they want you to be something you can never be.
00:11:21
Speaker
and pledging you on a scale that you can never hit. And that scale is based on their comfort level. So you've got, I was on the phone with a friend of mine and he said, is it racism or is it friendism? And I said, but if all of your friends are of your race, then isn't it both?
00:11:40
Speaker
Right. Right. So I don't know anyone who looks like that. And now I'm going to treat you like a museum. It's okay to ask questions, but it's not okay to make assumptions about my character. Absolutely. I mean, I got asked, did I, I mean, how can you wash it? How do you keep it? How do you keep your hair clean? I'm like, I mean, what do you think I am? Like, you know, it's just, what's going on with your body? Right.
00:12:06
Speaker
And that I don't know if clients would really, really like that. Why? Because you're afraid.
00:12:13
Speaker
So the I think one of the things the best things you can do for you for you and the best thing I've done even for me is to bring to the table a Real conversations about what is it that's making you uncomfortable? And I've done it in a very compassionate way Because I'm gonna treat it like it's a disease because racism is a mental illness. I said racism
Emotional Manipulation in Workplaces
00:12:36
Speaker
It's a mental illness it terrorizes your brain and
00:12:42
Speaker
And if you go with it, it'll cause you to terrorize people. And so I've sat down with people and said, what is it that's making you uncomfortable? And they have a very hard time articulating it. Why would you think that about me? And when people begin to articulate their prejudices out loud,
00:13:06
Speaker
Whoo, then they discover, then you ever said something and by the time it left your mouth, you're thinking to yourself, that is the stupidest thing I've ever said.
00:13:14
Speaker
So by the time they get it out of their mouth, they're thinking, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever said. Why do I look like that? Exactly. And the interesting thing that I've experienced, one of the hardest things that I've experienced, especially working in white spaces, is when white women, particularly when white women are wrong, they go and this is something that I despise.
00:13:38
Speaker
I absolutely despise it. It makes everything in my boil boil because white women will like, they'll be wrong and they'll make accusations or when they want to be right and have people attack you, they start crying. And it's like,
00:13:57
Speaker
Like, has somebody ever did that to you? Yes. And let me tell you why it works. Let me tell you why it works. Because once again, I had to blame everything on media. Because, you know, we both work in media. And I love, I love media. But the damsel in distress doesn't look like me.
00:14:16
Speaker
No. The damsel in distress doesn't look like me. And so there is something in the heart of every man, and we love our men, but there's something in the heart of every man that wants to be the solution and be the hero and come to the rescue and fix the problem. I believe God made them that way.
00:14:32
Speaker
I'm not mad at you, brothers, for being that way. But here's the situation. This is why there's disparities in medical care as well, daughter. I'm going to tell you, if someone who looks like Sally, I'm sorry if your name is Sally, but if someone looks like her and she's crying, what's going to happen is the men are going to say, oh, let's see how we can fix this. We can fix this, right? Oh my gosh, poor thing. This is why if she's in the hospital and she has a pain, well, what's going on?
00:15:01
Speaker
But if someone that looks like me is in the hospital and has a situation, I better have an advocate with me. My pain, there is a lower level of empathy. From Black women.
Navigating Stereotypes in White-Dominant Workspaces
00:15:13
Speaker
The intention is you're stronger. You're more athletic. You can handle it. You're tougher. But actually, the truth of the matter is I'm just as feminine. I'm just as soft.
00:15:25
Speaker
my heart aches and breaks just like everybody else's. If I tell myself that you're tougher, I can treat you any kind of way. Right. I can dehumanize you. I can lower my level of empathy, and now I can treat you however I want to treat you. And so you can take it. You're OK.
00:15:44
Speaker
It's so true. Like, I feel like, especially with me, because I'm tall, I'm 5'10", I'm considered tall for a woman, so I'm 5'10", and people often assume that I'm the big black girl. So, because I'm very straight faced, or when I'm doing, especially when I'm very focused on work and I'm trying to get a lot of stuff done.
00:16:06
Speaker
People often make an assumption, you're mean, you're aggressive. And I'm like, even in communication, I have to practice, I find myself, before I have to go talk to a supervisor or anybody, I have to go in the washroom, center myself, and make sure that I'm not communicating aggressively. I try to make sure that I don't, I talk a lot sometimes with my hands. So I try to make sure that I keep my hands to myself. I keep a distance, even before social distancing was a thing,
00:16:34
Speaker
I don't want to make it seem like I'm walking up on you, I'm going to roll up on you because I've seen times where I've gotten up and I might have been in a rush to get somewhere or in a rush to get to something and people are like, oh my gosh, she's running, she's moving really fast or very aggressively and they assume that I'm angry or I'm mad or I'm about to do something and I'm like, why is it
00:16:58
Speaker
that I have to move very slowly and put my hands in my pocket. And you know, like I have a higher up right now that cuss like a drunk sailor. She's the second. Yes, she's the second in command in our building. So it's another guy over her who's the boss of everybody. And then it's her and she's the boss of everybody under her. And then it's the supervisors who is my direct report.
00:17:23
Speaker
She will come in there and cuss at you and yell at you. And I mean, I'm talking about red face, finger-pointing, like really mean and aggressive, like she barks at you. She doesn't talk to you. She talks at you. And in all of that, we all just see her. Oh, that's just how it is. Well, that's how they see her. I don't go for that. I've had to tell her several times. I don't respond to that well.
00:17:48
Speaker
And for her, it's OK. Normalize a dysfunction. Yes. If you normalize bad behavior, it becomes a dysfunction. Absolutely. Now, if I did that, they will fire me because I would be in support. If you did that, you'd be in jail. For sure. Oh, for sure.
00:18:08
Speaker
But sure. We were afraid for our lives. Yes. They would say she was aggressive. She was around chemicals. She was trying to throw acid on us. I mean, it's ridiculous, like the kind of stuff that we have to go through. And I've seen her communicate differently to white people.
00:18:30
Speaker
She only really gets aggressive like this. And I mean, honestly, it's a heartbreaking conversation to have to have. But I had to tell my supervisor, I was like, I know you guys, because I'm Black, you assume that I come from people that talk aggressive. I come from people that cuss and fight and all of that stuff like that. I was like, that's not my background.
00:18:52
Speaker
My mom and I can hold a very aggressive conversation without ever using anybody's cuz word, you know, we don't talk like that. That's just not who we are. That's not our vernacular. So I find it so interesting how we have to like they have these preconceived notions and it and it varies from white person to white person. Because if you have one white person that
00:19:15
Speaker
Maybe they had a black brother-in-law or something like that. They see things a little differently. Or if you come from people that just only been around all white people, they see things differently. If they're grandfathers or their ancestors own slaves, they look at black people. You don't know what to think about who.
00:19:38
Speaker
And who thinks what? It's really dicey to navigate just in and out of different rooms and settings. And you have to be extremely savvy. You have to walk in and out of these settings, be extremely observant, and be able to size up situations very quickly. One of the things I tell you, one of the things I love to do is defuse people. If they are upset, having a fit, because they think that's what it's going to take to get me to move,
00:20:08
Speaker
I'm the first thing I want to find out is, are you okay? That's okay. All right. They're screaming and having a fit. Okay. Well, and I'm going to lower my voice. If I have to come bring it all the way down to a whisper.
00:20:23
Speaker
I'm just not gonna engage because what people are, what the scenario is calling for is for you to match that level of aggression.
Benefits of Diversity in Leadership
00:20:32
Speaker
And then you'll wear one label and they'll wear another. They'll say, oh, she just had a moment. But for you, it'll be, that's how you are.
00:20:40
Speaker
Yes, you get labeled that permanently. They won't invite you to the table. I mean, honestly, I've literally worked with people where they will dissuade the manager in one way to get them so that they can have the upper edge to make it seem like, oh, well, she's just mad, and she's just aggressive, and she has no reason to be that way, so we're not going to invite her to the table. We don't need her opinion. We don't need what she has to say. And I've seen that cost my company
00:21:09
Speaker
millions. Wow. It has cost them in, um, customers or clients rather, it has cost them when they bought instrumentation and like in science, nothing is cheap. We talking upwards of hundreds of thousands of dollars. You buy this stuff, you can't return it. You stuck with it. It's stuck in your lap. You don't have space, you know, so it costs money when you don't bring the right voices to the table or you don't get a well rounded opinion.
00:21:39
Speaker
And most of the time, when Black people are left out, especially women, you lose a huge chunk of information because we're in the trenches. You keep us there. And so you know what needs to be done and how it needs to be done. So you think about it. I've had the fortunate opportunity to be able to volunteer with you. And we've worked with massive crowds. And so you know what the people need. But people at the higher end,
00:22:08
Speaker
don't know, they're just making assumptions. So they make all these changes. And it's frustrating for the people that have to do the stuff at the bottom, because you don't know our experience. And facilitate those changes.
00:22:21
Speaker
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. But if you're going to exclude me from the conversation because of my gender or ethnicity, you're going to miss out on the level of genius that I bring to the table. And you know there have been hundreds of studies done about companies that have diversity on the higher levels make
00:22:42
Speaker
more money. I mean, you don't just look good. You don't just get to hang the Black Lives Matter banner in your front window. No, you literally make more money because when you bring diversity to the table, you're going to widen your audience.
00:22:59
Speaker
you're going to connect more to different types of people. And it's not even that you bring a Black person to the table because they're going to give you the inroad and the cultural advantage into Black people. You're going to bring them to the table because they have a different human experience.
00:23:16
Speaker
Right. We are not just introducing you to new brown dollars, black dollars. They're actually giving you a different human experience so that you're, it makes everybody at the table smarter. We're better when you, when you've got a greater diversity, but if they're going to leave people out and the world outside of your boardroom is changing,
00:23:38
Speaker
The world outside of your boardroom is changing. There is a rumble, there is a shaking going on globally, not just in America, globally. And so if you're gonna, if your boardroom does not look anything like, you know, I've worked at churches where there, I mean, the congregation is 80 to 90% black and brown people and the pastoral staff is 100% white.
00:24:10
Speaker
And that kind of thing still happens today. And you see it all across America. Your church, 70, 80, 90% black and brown, and yet your pastoral staff, your leadership staff is 100% white. You're not gonna serve those people to the greatest capacity because your human experience is too narrow.
00:24:31
Speaker
It's way too narrow. And even if you look at, I know I'm getting real churchy here, but if you look at what Jesus did, his ability to listen to women, children, non-Jews, I mean, I said Jesus was the original social advocate, okay? So he was...
00:24:53
Speaker
He believed in diversity, diversity of voices. And so these microaggressions, what they're designed to do is give you bumps back into be like us or we're not going to hear you.
00:25:07
Speaker
And Ailey, I'm gonna tell you, I understand the necessity for assimilation. If I were to move to France right now, it would do me well to learn to speak French. It would do me well to learn to understand how to order from a menu, how to go in and out of a business setting in that country. So trust me, I understand assimilation, but I will never look like a Frenchman
00:25:34
Speaker
I won't look like that. So when I'm talking about assimilation, you learn the game, you learn the language. We know we're brown women. We can speak some other types of English, right? I tell people all the time, I'm mixed with black, okay?
00:25:53
Speaker
Seriously, there's several different types of blacks. So I speak several different types of blacks, several different types of whites. But at the same time, I can only assimilate to a point because at the end of the day, I'm still gonna look like me. And so even though I know how to negotiate, I know how to articulate,
00:26:14
Speaker
Even though I know how to do all of these things, I can't administrate, do all that stuff. If you're still turning the volume down on my voice because of the way I look, you're gonna miss out. Yeah, so I'm not anti-assimilation, but don't ask me to change my hair unless it's the standard of the entire corporation. If it's not the standard of the entire corporation, you're gonna have to explain to me some things.
00:26:40
Speaker
Mm hmm. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Or make assumptions about my workload, what type of workload I can carry because of my ethnicity. No. Yes. Mm hmm. Now, since you mentioned workload, I want to tell you a story and I want to share with the audience this story about my return back to work.
Post-COVID-19 Work Challenges
00:27:00
Speaker
So I mentioned in previous podcasts that I was suffering from COVID-19 and I just finally got the release after being off of work for three weeks.
00:27:09
Speaker
to go back to work. I tested negative, so I'm not shedding any things, and I feel a little bit better. Still not 100%, but I'm back at work. I returned to work. The test that I run, my coworkers was trying to manage while I was away. It took several people to do one person's job, which is a statement in itself.
00:27:33
Speaker
And so here I am doing my work at this high level of capacity. And it took two people to do one of my tests. And for me to be gone on a Saturday, it took three people to feel one person. So you see what I'm saying? Even the imbalance in that workload says a lot.
00:27:57
Speaker
As I'm away, I have my own space where I work in my lab. They destroyed my lab. It was like the garbage can was sitting right there. They threw everything on the floor and missed the garbage can. I come back to reagents expired. They broke one of my instruments, which I had to figure out to repair. So here's the interesting thing. Because of COVID-19, we had to stagger our shifts. So I was forced to go to work for the midnight.
00:28:26
Speaker
as a woman, so nobody cares about my safety, right? So I'm working from 4 to midnight, which means by the time I get to work, I can't call tech support and ask them to walk me through a process of how to fix this instrument. I have to figure it out alone. They work on days, and I've been gone for three weeks. They have more than enough time to call tech support to get the instrument back up. Nobody did.
00:28:52
Speaker
So here I am stuck trying to figure out what they, trying to, first of all, understand what they did, figure out the problem, and then get the problem corrected. Yeah. So in the midst of cleaning up my lab, putting away samples they didn't put away, making up new reagents, all of this stuff is very labor intensive. I finally get the instrument back up. I go over to get the second instrument going, the computer crash on that instrument. Now I'm still down one instrument.
00:29:20
Speaker
So I am working to catch up work that was due last, the previous Thursday. So here we are on Monday. I'm back for two days. One, two, just two days. And I get a nasty email from our ops manager telling me how we're behind on several jobs and how it's my fault and how they wanted me to catch up with all of this stuff. I mean, she goes down a list of things she wants me to do.
00:29:46
Speaker
all while knowing I'm still not 100%. And I wasn't at the time when I had COVID-19, not only did I have it, my mom had it and my brother. So I have two significant family members that's close to me that's sick as well. And my mom is still sick.
00:30:02
Speaker
So I'm like, hey, I don't know what you guys expect out of me. And I mean, the email was nasty. It wasn't, Elianna, we know you're trying or anything like that. Now, keep in mind, my computer is down on my one instrument. It's a white guy that's supposed to be fixing this instrument. It should have took him a day to replace the computer and put software back on it.
00:30:24
Speaker
it's it we're recording this podcast on the sunday to this day right now that instrument is still down nobody is telling him because she doesn't have her second instrument she can't get all these jobs done and we're falling behind because you're not sticking to it or getting this instrument or ensuring that this instrument works everybody's yelling at me
00:30:44
Speaker
saying you need to get this done, you need to get this done. And it's such an unfair expectation. And I just told you, it takes two to three people to replace me at any given moment.
00:30:56
Speaker
And yet and still, I can't catch a break from coming back from them being behind on work to me not even having a full deck, honestly. I'm 50% down. Right. I can't run. You can't run from a flipping deadly
Racism, Fear, and Overworking Pressures
00:31:14
Speaker
disease. How about that? Yes.
00:31:17
Speaker
We're not even talking about, I'm talking about like the work situation itself. I'm not telling you how I feel. I'm not telling you how my body is adjusting, how I have, you know, I, I dealt with when I had the, when I had all of the symptoms, I had all of the symptoms. I couldn't even breathe. Yeah. And it was like, nobody is like, well, let's, let's just give her a week to get acclimated. They was like, you back, we want you to, you know, and I'm like, what do you expect from me?
00:31:45
Speaker
I am not, I'm a human being and that is the thing that is so infuriating about microaggressions is that they just don't see you as human. They just don't understand that there are some things that you're able to do and there's some things you just can't. And I mean, even honestly, if they would have just took a look at just the work in itself and all of the stuff I had to do to catch us all the way back up,
00:32:13
Speaker
even get us to the point where stuff was due the next day, says a lot. And it's like, I don't know. It's frustrating to me as a black woman and knowing that it stems from race, because there's a white guy that has a hand to play in this. And he's not working. He's not getting it. He's my main source to get my instrument back up and going.
00:32:37
Speaker
He's not getting his job done. Therefore, I can't get mine done. Yeah. Nobody seems to notice that part or care about that part. And so what you're getting is the, uh, you're getting the splash of off of their fear. So they're so afraid that you're not going to get your stuff done. Well, we're just going to, we're going to press her and push her and their, the, the expected response is okay. Okay. I'll do more.
00:33:03
Speaker
And the expected response is that out of fear, because what you're getting is it sounds like this email is full of fear. And I'm going to use manipulation to get you to basically abuse yourself, abuse your schedule, not take breaks, don't sleep well.
00:33:25
Speaker
You know, I already pushed you to midnight, I already did all that stuff, and so now I'm just doing whatever I gotta do to make you afraid not to overwork yourself. Rather than look at the reality that, hey, we're in a pandemic and you're actually going to get better work out of this particular employee with more compassion. But if I don't see you as I would any other woman,
00:33:50
Speaker
And if I don't see you as that, then I'm not going to treat you with compassion. I'm just going to treat you as someone that I need to produce. So I'm going to press, press, press. And no, it's not cool. It's not all right. And then what happens is, and you've got to be the one to point out very calmly, because you can't get upset. They can get upset. You can get upset. You cannot. You cannot. You cannot. You say, two things I could never be. I can never be late, and I can never be loud.
00:34:20
Speaker
No. And I had a former coworker. She's white. She used to say, oh, well, I'm late and loud all the time. Yeah. You don't have the microaggression of, you know, if I come in late, the black girl's late. You know what I mean? Yes, she's lazy. She doesn't want to get stuff done. Isn't it?
00:34:43
Speaker
And I feel like that's the underlying theme of you're lazy, you're not getting work done. And it's like, actually, I am getting a lot of work done with the hand that I'm dealt. Yeah, your perspective is off. And I'm actually getting a whole lot done.
00:35:02
Speaker
And the fact that it, that you, and here's the deal underneath all of that, there is a truth that they know you're the type of person who delivers and you get it done. You come through every time and their panic is that, is she going to do it this time? Is she going to be able to, because the fact that if you, if you're out recovering from COVID and it takes three people to do your job.
00:35:26
Speaker
Unfortunately, for a lot of employers, the person they should be celebrating is the person they're abusing. Absolutely. It's bad business. Racism is bad business. Gender bias is bad business. And what happens is you're the person that's really coming through and delivering for you, you end up abusing. And then the person you're covering for is costing you more money.
00:35:52
Speaker
Because you're paying that money, and they're delivering less. Absolutely. That is the exact issue. That is the exact issue. And it's like they have these just unfair biases towards us. And this is the unfair expectation that we have to play by their rules. We don't know what the rules are. We can't be ourselves. We have to silence ourselves. We have to change ourselves completely. We have no freedom. We have no autonomy.
00:36:19
Speaker
We just have to be robots. And it's basically like a plantation mindset. Like you just come here and you do as we say, and if you don't do exactly what we want, we'll, we'll beat you. And then for me, the biggest struggle for me has always been, especially with this week is like, I felt I literally, while I was praying, I just cried because I'm like, God, I feel like I am.
00:36:42
Speaker
always given more than 100%. I don't have the opportunity to go any less than 100%. And here I am really struggling with health and really trying to get myself reset and back to back to business as normal.
00:36:58
Speaker
as normal as it can be. And I have no advocate. I have nobody that's coming to the table to say, hey, she's only been here two days. Look at all the stuff that she has got done and all the stuff she had to get done just to be able to get to this point. Yes. That is the current truth. You've got to learn now how to advocate for yourself.
00:37:24
Speaker
And I mean, unfortunately, and still a lot of industries and science is one of them because there has yet to be significant breakthroughs. So looking for someone to represent you. And when I say a representative, I'm not even talking about someone who looks like you because someone could be a white male who just wants his company to thrive, survive, make money.
00:37:49
Speaker
And that person could say, I'm going to advocate for her. I'm going to mentor her. I'm going to speak up for her in the spaces where she is not. I tell people all the time, I don't need you to speak up for me when I'm in the room. I need you to speak up for me in the places where I am not. And so until the industry really reaches a place where people are comfortable saying that, and I won't even say comfortable, quit waiting to be comfortable to do what's right.
00:38:17
Speaker
Right. That's what's got us in this situation now. People are, you're uncomfortable having these types of conversations and they're just going to have to do it, be courageous enough to do it. Where your comfort runs out, your courage should kick in.
00:38:34
Speaker
So what we've got to learn to do and what people, women in your position have to learn to do is how to advocate for yourself from the perspective of their
Self-Advocacy in the Workplace
00:38:44
Speaker
values. So you can't come in advocating saying, I'm only human. I'm a woman just like Sally and Karen. I don't care about that, but you can see you like that. And it's not necessarily, we're not friends. You're not my golf buddy. I'm not trying to re-educate you, but I am going to advocate for, for myself.
00:39:02
Speaker
from your value from your vantage point which means i'm gonna show you this is this is what i produce for you in these two days. And this is i've done it while recovering from an illness and i had to recover my physical space and i'm down on equipment so we can learn to be objective.
00:39:24
Speaker
And a part of winning at this game is being objective because sometimes we feel like people don't know what they're doing. And I really believe that now this is my opinion. 80% of them know exactly what they're doing. They know exactly what they're doing. And so they know exactly what they're doing. So what I do is, as I've learned how to advocate for myself is I have to come in and I'm going to tell you the truth and I'm not going to dishonor you.
00:39:51
Speaker
And I'm not, but I cannot shut up because of your fears. Just because you're afraid of me does, and I actually should be more afraid of you.
00:40:03
Speaker
Absolutely. And so when people, they overreact to every move and then that overreaction is designed to cause you to become smaller and smaller and more and more silent until you become insignificant, even in your own eyes. And that's a dangerous place to be. But if you learn to advocate for yourself, do it through objectivity, remind them of what, Hey, this is why we're even here. And this is what I'm helping you achieve.
00:40:31
Speaker
So, absolutely. And then, well, there's always... You can always leave and branch out. And that's the thing, like, I feel like it's the frustration with being a Black employee in a white dominant space. And even honestly, being a woman in Black male dominant spaces, it's difficult and it's hard.
00:41:02
Speaker
It's always that fight about, guys, I'm doing what's right. It's not about that I'm right. It's about doing the right thing. And I'm going to express, if a guy is expressing his feelings about something, he's passionate. If a lady starts expressing her feelings about something, she's emotional.
00:41:24
Speaker
And so I have to use their language and say, I'm very passionate about this. My heart is really into this particular project. I'm going to be very honest with you about this. And so I have to, on purpose, set my own plate and control my own narrative. And I don't apologize for being passionate about something.
00:41:48
Speaker
and say, hey, you know, I'm going to, I am, I am going to, um, uh, I'm going to follow my directives and I'm going to do whatever project it is I'm working on. However, I, I do want to let this be said for the record. And I will express, this is my, this is what, this is the direction I think we should be going on this. So yeah, leaders.
00:42:14
Speaker
And I'm one of them. But I tell you what, I've had to learn. You have to advocate for yourself from an objective point of view. And that idea of doing what's right because it's right and calling people when there seems to be a disparity here that I'd like to bring to your attention because I know we value doing it right. And now what I've done is call our corporate values to the table.
00:42:43
Speaker
And that, that's so very important because here's the thing that, um, with my particularly, particularly with my company, because we've been bald and sold and bald and sold and bald and sold really. Cultural tornado. Yes. Yes. Within the last three years, we've been bought and sold twice and I've been there for nine years. So we've at least had a good six to seven different owners.
00:43:10
Speaker
Yeah. And I've been there for nine years, so it's pretty rough. So for us, we don't really even know the culture. Even trying to figure out who's in charge of HR is a huge thing. So it's just a whole cultural thing.
00:43:30
Speaker
It's pretty rough for us. And so, I mean, like this conversation for me was so necessary because I feel like so many people don't understand. And like sometimes you'll be facing microaggressions and don't even understand that you're facing them. You don't know that this is what they're doing. And even just to say. You're trying to climb up a ladder that somebody's squirting oil on. Right. You're wondering, why is it so hard for me? And it looks like everybody else is doing fine.
00:43:56
Speaker
I feel like I'm struggling to meet a standard. I was so much smarter than this when I was outside of here. Yeah, you feel like something's wrong with you, and it's not. It's nothing wrong with you. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, I felt that way. I mean, the last company I was with, I was highly celebrated. And it was like, to go from that to this, it was like, wow. A lot of people warfare. Oh, for sure.
00:44:24
Speaker
And I mean, honestly, my heart, especially with this time where everybody's eyes are starting to, well, seems to be opening up at once. I've seen something interesting, and this is way crazy off the topic, but I've seen that the Band-Aid company are actually starting to make Band-Aids for brown colored skin. It is pretty funny. Yes. How long have they been making Band-Aids? They just figured out that the rest of the world is not pale.
00:44:52
Speaker
Or it doesn't matter. It figured out that it matters because it didn't matter before. Because whatever the dominant culture is, the assumption is you have to be like us. And so there's a difference between assimilation and abandoning who you are.
00:45:13
Speaker
I understand you want people to assimilate to corporate culture, American culture, what are all that stuff. I understand that the majority of culture understand that, but the idea that you're going to allow people to feel like an outcast. You're going to allow people to be marginalized and feel insignificant. It's good. It's not cool. And it's bad business.
00:45:38
Speaker
It's horrible business and it's horrible practices just as people because as a people in general, we have to evolve. We have to get used to seeing other faces and making room for other people at the table. I follow this very eye-opening Instagram account called Pill Up or Shut Up.
00:46:00
Speaker
And basically what they caught, what she did was she's an owner of a beauty company and she called out every brand that put up a blackout Tuesday post or black lives matter post. And she was like, we want to see your numbers on a corporate level. We understand that you have black employees as like in your stores or that's a clerk. I'm talking about at your executive level, at your C-suite level,
00:46:25
Speaker
We want to know how many black people work in that space. And you will be amazed. It's not just beauty companies. I'm talking from Adidas, Nike, you name it. Some companies have zero representation. None.
00:46:41
Speaker
And you wonder why, as a Black person, you can't go in to find the foundation shade, or you can't go in to find something that works well for you in your Senate or your body build. Even with clothes, how you might have a Black girl that's more shapely, that's wide hips or small top. You know what I'm saying?
00:47:05
Speaker
all of those things matter and you wonder why you don't find clothes that fit you or why like for when Victoria's Secret came out and was like yeah we don't make clothes for plus-sized women we never intended to do so so like you you figure you you're starting to we're starting to put the dots together because there's no representation on the top end
00:47:24
Speaker
there's no one advocating for people at the bottom. And that's the hard thing that I think that we're all starting to realize is like we've been really pouring dollars and supporting people and working in companies that don't have our best interests at heart. So now we're in the space of like, all right, it's time to either
00:47:45
Speaker
for them to pull up and shut up or shut up and say, we really advocate, we're going to start inviting black voices to the table, or we're going to have to just really start doing our own thing. And it's, you know, it's just that, it's just that kind of season we're in. So do you have anything else you want to add, doc? You know, I just want to encourage, listen, if you're a woman, if you're a woman of color, if you are
00:48:09
Speaker
What whatever the you know whatever your situation is working in a corporate environment a technical environment a non profit environment you have got to learn that it's okay to advocate for yourself one of the one of the things that.
Avoiding Dysfunctional Workplace Dynamics
00:48:24
Speaker
I also wanna encourage people, do not get in a dysfunctional relationship with your workplace where it's abusive, but you're kind of enabling it, you're making excuses for it. And even if you wanna like Google some of the symptoms of what a codependent relationship looks like, I think some people are in codependent dysfunctional relationships with their workplaces where we overlook things that we know are wrong.
00:48:51
Speaker
just bad business, unkind, counter to the cultural we want, counter to the values we state. But we make excuses for it, we enable it, we succumb to it, but we don't address it. And so find ways to advocate for yourself. You can do it in an honorable, respectful way. What the enemy will try to tell you, by the enemy, I mean fear. What fear will try to tell you is if you speak up, you're going to be looked at differently.
00:49:20
Speaker
Hey, here's a wake up call for you. They already look at you differently. So I'd rather hear it differently for the person who said, Hey, here's my, I'd like to sit down with you. And if I can't sit down with you, I'm going to send you some clear bullet points. And I'm going to tell you how these instances are hurting our business.
00:49:42
Speaker
Not just hurting me, they're hurting what you wanna do. So yeah, don't be in a dysfunctional relationship with your workplace or any organization, not even a volunteer organization. Don't stand for it. If you're gonna get free, this is the season to get free.
00:49:58
Speaker
I agree. Well, Dr. Rawls, I thank you so much for joining. It's my pleasure. Yeah, I'm so thankful because I couldn't think of a better person to hold a conversation with because one, you're a culturalist and you have great solutions.
Conclusion & Contact Information
00:50:16
Speaker
And like you said, you're very grown. You live through
00:50:23
Speaker
I'm grateful that you were able to come on to the show and give your perspective of microaggressions and having the unfair expectations as a worker. So thank you so much. I love you so much. Thank you for joining me. I love you too. It's been my absolute pleasure.
00:50:42
Speaker
All right, guys, this was the podcast. I'm going to link where you can find Dr. Ross on social media. And if you're interested in booking her to have her come to your job or maybe help your business out, she is excellent with that. So I'm going to give her email where you can directly contact her admin to book her and schedule her. She does travel, guys.
00:51:06
Speaker
Check her out. And I want to thank you guys for joining me for this podcast and as always be relevant and stay blessed.