Transcript
Speaker: it's terrifying not being able to breathe. And that's informed a lot of our strategic thinking and our positioning because nobody should have to struggle to breathe and we can do so much better for people with lung conditions. So it's absolutely at the heart of what we're trying to deliver.
Speaker: Welcome to season four of the Charity CEO podcast, the podcast for charity leaders by charity leaders, bringing you inspirational and meaningful conversations with leaders who are driving change in the nonprofit space. I'm truly delighted and humbled that the show has been named in the Charity Times top 10 charity podcasts for 2022. Thank you all for that incredible endorsement.
Speaker: I'm Divya O 'Connor and here's the show. Sarah Ullnaw is the CEO of the newly rebranded charity asthma and lung UK.
Speaker: Poor lung health is the third biggest killer in the UK and yet only 2 % of publicly funded medical research goes towards this cause. Asman Lung UK is here to change that and be the driving force behind the transformation of lung health. Sarah talks about her learnings from leading the collective journey of the rebrand process. She also shares her personal experiences being a first time CEO, joining the organization virtually during lockdown and being a busy mum of four.
Speaker: I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Hi Sarah, welcome to the show. Lovely to have you here today and thank you for joining us on season four of the Charity CEO podcast.
Speaker: Hi, and thank you for having me. Really lovely to have the invitation to come on. Well, absolutely delighted to have you as a guest. And in keeping with the popular icebreaker format, Sarah, we are going to start with our icebreaker questions. So if you're ready, we can dive in. Go for it. So question one, what was your first job?
Speaker: Oh, I had a Saturday job working in a shoe shop when I was a teenager. Excellent. Did you get some good discounts on the shoes? I didn't actually, but I learned an awful lot about customer service and more than I cared to know about pleasing some customers. Brilliant. Question two. As a child, what did you dream of being when you grew up?
Speaker: Oh, gosh. It varied a little bit. For a long time, actually, I wanted to be a lawyer. I liked a good sort of robust argument with various family members. And I liked the idea of changing the world, I suppose, and being able to sort of fight and argue for a cause. Question three, what is your guilty pleasure? My guilty pleasure. Well, I do follow around the world a particular
Speaker: pop music band called Hot Chip. I've been to see them an awful lot over the years. Does that count as a guilty pleasure? Probably does. The amount of time and effort I've spent tracking them down. Absolutely. Being a groupie, great guilty pleasure. Question four. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in the world right now, what would that be? I would change the dynamic on climate change.
Speaker: I feel, I suppose, in keeping with so many others as though we're not doing it anywhere near enough to grapple with the danger it presents. I'd love to wave a magic wand and feel as though we were on the right path to tackling it and improving the prognosis for future generations.
Speaker: Yes, I hear you and I'm sure we'll come on to talk a bit more about climate impact as our conversation goes on. Our final icebreaker question though is, if you had the opportunity to interview anyone in the world dead or alive, who would it be and what one question would you like to ask them?
Speaker: Tough question. I think I would choose Angela Merkel. I mean, perhaps quite a serious interview, but I would like to ask her about her resilience as a leader who was at the very highest level of leadership for a really long time, trying to drive change with ups and downs. How did she bounce back? How did she stay resilient?
Speaker: I think that's a brilliant question, whether you're in a leadership role or not, I think we could all do with building resilience in our day -to -day lives. Well, Sarah, welcome to the show. You are the CEO of the newly rebranded Asthma & Lung UK, and your strap line is one that I absolutely love, which is the charity fighting for your right to breathe. Tell us about the vision and mission of your organisation.
Speaker: Yes, well, I mean, we are the product of a merger. So Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation are our forerunner charities and the two organisations came together in 2020. Our vision is a world where everyone can breathe with healthy lungs. And as part of the merger process, we interviewed thousands of people living with lung conditions, their loved ones,
Speaker: in the respiratory community, policymakers, many others. And there was a golden thread about struggling to breathe and how terrifying that is for people. And that's what really unites whatever lung condition you have, if it's asthma, if it's lung cancer, if it's COPD, many other lung conditions. Through the process of merger, I think there were some who were a little skeptical about, look, could you unite quite a diverse,
Speaker: group of lung conditions. But one of the common golden threads, as I say, was it's terrifying not being able to breathe. And that's informed a lot of our strategic thinking and our positioning because nobody should have to struggle to breathe. And we can do so much better for people with lung conditions. So it's absolutely at the heart of what we're trying to deliver.
Speaker: I understand that poor lung health is the third biggest killer in the UK. Now that is something actually I didn't know prior to doing my research for our conversation today. And yet data shows that less than 2 % of all publicly funded research in the UK is being spent on understanding or finding cures and treatments for lung conditions. So how is Asthma and Lung UK addressing this?
Speaker: Yeah, it's something we feel really passionately about. You know, you say you didn't know that it was the third biggest killer. I think that's news to lots of people. And the reality is that lung health and lung disease has been
Speaker: under -resourced, under -treated, sidelined. And again, that's what we've heard from so many people living with a lung condition. They feel as though it's often not taken seriously and that they struggle to access care and support in an early and accurate diagnosis as a result. Our new strategy is ambitious and it's bold. It's really trying to transform the way people think about lung health. And because there's been such a lack of attention and sort of taking lung disease as seriously as it
Speaker: needs to be. So we are on a mission to elevate the lungs, make people think differently about lung health. And as part of that, say, we need much more research and innovation. That's really the way that we'll transform outcomes for people with lung disease. We'd like to see investment in research and innovation at least match the burden of disease, bearing in mind it's a big killer and cause of ill health in the country.
Speaker: Picking up on something you said there, Sarah, about people feeling that lung conditions are not taken seriously, I think lung cancer in particular is often associated with smoking and smokers. Could you elaborate on perhaps some of the myths or the stigma that is associated with lung conditions? Yeah, absolutely. So there's still a huge amount of stigma out there about lung disease.
Speaker: And I knew this before I joined the charity, but the extent of it has surprised me, talking to people living with a lung disease. As you say, there's clearly the link with tobacco. So sometimes there's still a feeling, oh, well, if you smoked, you know, it's your fault that pervades. But there's also a sense of a link with
Speaker: certain occupations, certain communities. There's huge inequalities around lung disease. And I think that leads to stigma. You know, there's a sense of, oh, well, groups over here might be more susceptible, but lung disease is not something for me or that's likely to affect other parts of the population. So really trying to get under the skin of that and say, we should all value our lung health from an early age. We should look after our lungs. Lung health is for everybody.
Speaker: and is a really important part of what we're trying to do. And, you know, regardless of whether you've smoked or not, if you have a lung disease, well, you of course deserve the right to help and treatment and support. And there is so much that we can do to improve people's quality of life. And it's a travesty that that's not happening as it should. And what is the demographics profile, if you like, of people and age groups who have lung conditions?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a great question because I think there's a perception that might skew massively older sort of ex -smokers or smokers. But if you take asthma, it's over a million children have asthma across the UK, 5 .4 million have asthma in total, millions have COPD. So it really is mixed depending on which lung disease you are considering.
Speaker: There is a skew older because as we accumulate damage in our organs and in our lungs, it's no different to lots of other disease areas. But fundamentally we are saying as a charity, lung health is for all of us. It's for everyone. And we may come on and talk about this a little more, but it's why we're talking so much about the importance of clean air. Because actually from the womb onwards, if you are exposed to toxic air, that will have an impact on your lung health.
Speaker: and we need to do something about that. Yes, I'd definitely like to talk about that a bit more. But for the moment Sarah, I'd like to actually come back to the merger and more specifically actually the rebrand. You've been in post since December 2020. I mean, did you actually kick off the rebrand process when you joined and talk us through any learnings that you can share for other charity leaders who may be considering a rebrand?
Speaker: There are lots of learnings to share. It's been quite an 18 months. So the charities had formally merged at the beginning of 2020. Within a hundred days, COVID had hit and a lung charity and a respiratory pandemic, it was absolutely all hands on deck. I mean, the organisation, I just feel so proud of what the charity was able to do to support people with lung conditions who of course were understandably
Speaker: very worried, particularly in the early days of COVID and we provided huge amounts of advice and support. So to some extent, 2020 was about keeping the show on the road. I joined at the end of 2020 with a very clear goal of deciding what we did about the branding. So there'd been a decision made to keep the existing two brands when merger first happened. So I joined and we were still Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation, which was a bit of a mouthful.
Speaker: And I have led a process of really going back to first principles, considering the options around the branding for the charity. Lots of people had views and opinions, which we needed to hear and take into account. But we settled on firstly, moving to a single brand. We felt that was really important to communicate the fact that we are the nation's lung charity and to be, I suppose, the biggest force that we can for driving transformation
Speaker: And then we've been through quite a detailed process of deciding on a name, consulting widely with our community on that and with new branding. And so we launched our new name and brand and strategy. We did it all together earlier this year at the end of February.
Speaker: So tell us more about why the name then, Sarah, asthma and lung UK. I mean, I'm always fascinated when organisations do rebrands and where they land in terms of the brand and perhaps, you know, why not something even simpler? And maybe this was considered like Breathe UK. Yes. Great question. Well, firstly, I must say I really had some fantastic advice and support from other charity leaders.
Speaker: So we looked at some case studies of other charities that have rebranded and changed names and tried to learn the lessons, good and sometimes more challenging, from others in the sector that have been in this position. The short answer is we needed a very clear, simple name that helped people find us and understand what we're here to do easily, a Ronsil name, because we spoke to lots of organizations who
Speaker: perhaps had gone down a slightly different route. And the reality is, of course, huge amounts of people seeking us out want health advice. They want health information. And if you type asthma symptoms into Google, we wanted to appear very high up. We wanted to be accessible and not to have to spend money as a charity telling people who we were and what we did.
Speaker: And so the problem with a name like Breathe, and lots of people thought we should be called Breathe UK, is that, well, A, there are lots of other breathes out there. It's not just the preserve of health charities, but also we'd still have to spend time and effort communicating we're a charity and this is what we do. And with Asthma and Lung UK, there's lots of evidence out there that UK has become so synonymous with charities. If you put that at the end of your name,
Speaker: And of course we wanted to keep a similarity with our previous names as well so that people would make the transition and come on the journey with us because we have been very keen not to lose campaigners, people in our community and of course supporters through the merger, through the transition.
Speaker: I absolutely agree with you that I think some of the most powerful brands are where it does very clearly say what's on the tin is what is inside. And I think Sarah, one of the hardest things for any leader to do, especially when there are multiple stakeholders involved is to bring about consensus. And you mentioned earlier in terms of the merge itself, there was a lot of questions around uniting a diverse group of lung conditions. How did you go about achieving consensus through this process?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a great question. I don't think you can shortcut it. So my best answer is you really have to go out and talk to people and listen hard. I have always felt very strongly. We are as a charity, our people, our supporters, the public and beneficiaries that we serve. We wanted to go on a collective journey, so we went out and talked to
Speaker: lots and lots of people as many as we could and listened hard. It wasn't always easy or without challenges, but that hugely helped. I think both helped us chart a way to what was the right decision around the brand and the name, the brand positioning. So this idea that we need to transform lung health and we wanted a brand that was uplifting and bold and contemporary and could help us do that.
Speaker: But also because we decided to tie in the name change and the brand with a new strategy, it really enabled us to go out and ask the big fundamental questions to our community. What are we here for? What are the key priorities we must tackle? So we did an awful lot of listening and then that helped me. And we went through a robust process of consulting different sorts of groups about stakeholders. It helped me hand on heart say when we launched the name and the brand and the strategy,
Speaker: This is the product of a holistic community conversation. And of course, not everybody necessarily loves the name or maybe agrees with everything we've written in our strategy. But as a leader, I think I have felt we've gone through a really robust, detailed process. And I feel kind of confident about talking about the output and as though we're representing different voices in our community.
Speaker: around the key challenges we have to tackle over the next few years. Yes, and I think this is a good place, Sarah, to actually ask you to tell us a bit more about your new organisational strategy. I mean, obviously the last couple of years of the COVID pandemic has increased public awareness of respiratory conditions. What part has the pandemic played in the development of your new strategy as well? Yeah, it's played a huge part. I think the pandemic has shone a spotlight on the lungs and respiratory health.
Speaker: Part of our job is to keep it there and say, look, we must value our lungs and lung health in a way that we haven't. And let's learn the positive lessons from COVID that we can, but let's also recognize there's been massive disruption in the health service. Actually, lots of people with a lung disease, with asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and others, things have got worse.
Speaker: It's harder to get a diagnosis. It's harder to get access to your treatment and care. And so we need to be bold. We need a transformation. And that's what our strategy really sets out. So the North Star is saying we want to see a reduction in ill health and death from lung disease by 20 % over the next five years. That is very ambitious. That has to be a whole system target. You know, we can't do that alone, but we can play our part and then
Speaker: We set out a number of ambitions and priorities beneath that. But if I give you a really high level sense, we are prioritizing prevention, particularly clean air. We want to ensure secondly that people can access best services from diagnosis right through treatment and care. And then thirdly, we do need this uplift in research and innovation because that will be the engine of how we do
Speaker: driver transformation. So talking a bit more about clean air, because you mentioned it earlier on in the conversation as well, what are you doing in this space specifically with respect to air pollution and climate impact? Yeah, we're doing a few different things. So at the moment, we're calling very hard on government and campaigning for changes to legislation for bolder clean air laws.
Speaker: So there's a campaigning element at national level. There's absolutely a campaigning and an advocacy element at regional and local level within communities and building community campaigning sort of infrastructure. So we've been very supportive of clean air zones in different cities, of expansion of the ultra low emission zone in London. But we're also trying to raise awareness and
Speaker: I suppose shift the dial on how people think about air quality. You know, air pollution is often talked about as the invisible threat because we can't see it. So we have produced a number of reports and analyses to try to bring to life what this means for people in their daily lives. So many people with lung conditions tell us on a daily basis, their life is impacted by poor air quality.
Speaker: They can't get out and exercise. It may trigger an asthma attack or an exacerbation of their lung condition. So we've tried to humanize this, tell stories, bring the issue to life. And then we're also interested in a wider change. So much better local air quality monitoring and alerts so that people can understand where they live, what's happening and encouraging them to
Speaker: get active campaign at local level for change. Really fascinating stuff. But Sarah, I'd love to hear now a bit more about your personal story. I mean, tell us how you got to where you are and why this cause is so important to you. Yes. Well, my background is government and sort of public policy development. I'd worked for a couple of MPs and in the civil service when I first set out in my career.
Speaker: I then had worked for a membership body and for a long time at Cancer Research UK before joining Asthma and Lung UK. So I've spent the majority of my career in the charitable sector. I've done a few stints back in government, went on to a secondment many years ago to help write a national cancer strategy. But why this cause? Well, a mixture of the professional and the personal. For a long time, I have felt that
Speaker: lung disease, there is such stigma and it's partly linked to inequality and class and poverty. And that's bothered me. A cause where you don't get enough attention and resource because of some underlying factors and some stigma. So I felt passionately that lung cancer and now more broadly lung disease needs more attention. I lost an uncle to a really horrible, rare lung cancer called mesothelioma about 20 years ago.
Speaker: from diagnosis to his death. It was just a few months and there was no viable treatment option. And it was horrible to obviously be in that position personally to see someone you're close to struggling. So from a personal perspective, I have felt passionately that struggling to breathe is awful. We need to do more to tackle it. And I feel very honored to be leading the charity as a consequence.
Speaker: Well, I'm sorry for your uncle and hearing that story. I'm sure many listeners will have similar stories of loss within their own circles and families. And tell us a bit more about how you found your transition from your previous role as an executive director at CRUK into what I know is your first chief exec role now.
Speaker: It's been, I mean, a great transition in loads of ways. What can I say? I started my first CEO role in the height of a lockdown. I almost forget which one now because the last couple of years have blurred. But so I had to start virtually, which had pros and cons. It meant that I could get around the community and the team very quickly and meet lots and lots of people on Zoom and Teams, but you can't beat sort of face -to -face connection and really,
Speaker: getting to know people in a kind of deep way. So thank goodness that sort of phase of life is hopefully over. I suppose a few different things. You know, Cancer Research UK is a huge monster of a wonderful organization. And so moving from a very large organization to a mid -sized charity, that's taken time to adjust to. But I'm massively impressed at the amount
Speaker: that we can and do get out the door and deliver for beneficiaries. And because I've done quite a bit of trustee work and non -exec work at different organizations over the years, that did help me prepare. I mean, I think after spending such a long time in a single organization to move has given me a new lease of life and energy and passion, really, because it's reminded me how much I enjoy learning new things and
Speaker: love meeting new people. And not that you didn't get the opportunity to do that in the third sector in my previous role, because of course I did. But there's something really refreshing about learning about a new set of conditions, meeting a new academic community in my case, because we're a medical research funder. So I've really enjoyed that. I suppose it is a different role moving from being an executive director to being a chief exec. So I've tried to be quite
Speaker: deliberate in embracing that and I'm not directing certain parts of an organization. I'm having to take a step back, take a slightly different view, apply myself to certain things that I might not be so skilled in or might not naturally gravitate to. I mean, I think that's something I've some advice I was given and I've tried to follow really quite deliberately think about the fact that being a CEO is different from a senior manager
Speaker: role and trying to reflect on that on a regular basis. Any other advice or tips you would give to leaders across the sector who might be thinking of stepping into their first chief exec role? I was going to say it's great fun and it's incredibly rewarding and
Speaker: Don't be scared to try it. I've got a young family and the last few years, you constantly try to juggle and balance. And I think that can be a barrier to taking a leap into a new role or thinking about a really senior leadership role. But it's been an easier transition than I thought it would be. And also, there's not necessarily a good time, is there? You can wait a long time if you've got a family and you're managing other commitments. But I was given some advice when I first
Speaker: have started my family. What they said is you're worried and you'll apply yourself the same amount about whatever job you do, so you may as well take the senior leadership job. And I think that sort of stood me in good stead and been good advice. Yes, I'm sure there are many chief execs out there who know well the juggle of having young children and a busy job, but I always say I get so much inspiration from the job itself of being a chief exec and that really drives and inspires
Speaker: But looking back at your own leadership journey, Sarah, what advice would you give to yourself, do you think, before your first day? I think I would say, trust your instincts and try to be as open and learn as much as you can from different people and different experiences. And, you know, also recognise that
Speaker: You want to build the very best team around you and work with great people. I mean, I think this is a good lesson, not just for chief execs, of course, but for at any point in your career. Don't be afraid to say you don't know. Don't be afraid to ask questions. And you want to really embrace working with great people, learning from them.
Speaker: not feeling you have to have all the answers. And I love learning new things and I hope I'm always the first to say if I don't know or I don't understand or I want to find out more. I love working as part of a senior team and I don't like hierarchy particularly or for its own sake. So I'm trying to create a culture and an organization where everyone can speak up and we're kind of very much on a journey together.
Speaker: And so I would encourage myself to feel relaxed and embrace that way of working. Brilliant. Well, Sarah, it's been so lovely chatting with you and in closing now, do you have any final thoughts or reflections that you would like to share? What is one thing that you would like listeners to take away from this conversation? Well, I feel so fortunate to have had a wonderful career so far in the charity sector and I would
Speaker: just recommend it to anyone and recommend senior leadership roles. Life is short and the opportunity to be part of an organization making a positive difference makes getting up and going to work a pleasure most days and is something that I've been fortunate enough to experience and I would encourage anyone thinking about it because I speak to lots of people in different sectors
Speaker: who would quite like to work in the charitable sector but don't know how to make it happen or work. And I think it's been so rewarding. I'd encourage anyone thinking about it to give it a go. Well, thank you, Sarah. Thank you for being a guest on the show.
Speaker: Asthma in Long UK is the charity fighting for your right to breathe. Speaking with their CEO Sarah Woolnall really brought home to me the importance of something that perhaps many of us take for granted, the importance of clean air. The case of nine -year -old Ella Kissy -Deborah, who died of asthma and exposure to excessive air pollution a couple of years ago, really put the spotlight on this issue. Asthma in Long UK are campaigning hard to get the government to do much, much more in this space.
Speaker: because breath is life, and that's worth fighting for. I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Charity CEO podcast. A show that, thanks to you, our listeners, has repeatedly reached the number one spot in Apple's nonprofit podcast category. If you found this conversation valuable, please share or tag us on Twitter or LinkedIn or Instagram, and make sure you subscribe to the show by clicking the subscribe button on your podcast app.
Speaker: If you are feeling inspired or uplifted by what you have just heard, please share the joy and leave us a five -star review. Visit our website, thecharityceo .com, for full show details, information on previous season episodes, and to submit ideas for future guests. In order to balance my personal and professional commitments, the show will now come to you once a month instead of fortnightly. But I assure you, it will be worth the wait. Thank you for listening.
