Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
12. The power, pitfalls and practicalities of a purpose-driven life in the outdoors, with Chris Ord
55 Plays2 months ago
This week, we catch up with Chris Ord, who has helped craft the local trail running scene for over a decade. Chris is the founder of Trail Run Mag and has gone on to found Tour de Trails, which is responsible for some of the most loved and inclusive events on the Victorian calendar. When he's not race directing, Chris is a consultant with TRC Tourism or hosting trail running tours around the world. Our first conversation with Chris took place in October 2023 and covered a lot of ground, including the transformative effect that spending time outdoors in nature has had on Chris and the broader community, which led to him creating a purpose-driven career.
We then caught up two years later, where we continued the conversation on the impacts of climate, and in particular, how Race Directors in Victoria are navigating the risk and reward of hosting epic events in the Alpine over the summer and shoulder months.
Stay up-to-date with Chris's adventures and advocacy on his Instagram account, @onelifewild, or discover your next trail event or tour on Tour de Trails' social media or website.
To hear more from For Wild Places, subscribe to our newsletter or become a member.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the For Wild Places podcast. This is a podcast that shares the stories of inspiring people and their adventures in running, adventure and advocacy. I'm your host, Hilary, and today we are chatting with self-confessed Blue Sky Dreamer, race director and all around nature and trail enthusiast, Chris Ord.
Acknowledgment of First Nations Custodians
00:00:19
Speaker
Before we get into today's chat with Chris, I would like to acknowledge the First Nations people who have been the custodians of land, waters and cultures for tens of thousands of years. This podcast was recorded on Gadigal country in so-called Australia, where sovereignty was never ceded.
00:00:35
Speaker
This always was and will be Aboriginal land.
Guest Background and Journey into Trail Running
00:00:40
Speaker
Today's guest, Chris, calls Watarang Country on Victoria's Surf Coast home, despite spending a lot of his time traveling for work, pleasure, or a combination of the two.
00:00:49
Speaker
Chris is the founder of Tour de Trails, Trail Run Mag, and a consultant with TRC Tourism. Despite entering the world of trail running somewhat later in life, spending time exploring nature has been a cornerstone of Chris's life, from his upbringing in Warburton, Victoria, to his more recent role guiding trail running tours in Crete, Raleigh, and Bhutan, just to name a few.
00:01:09
Speaker
Our first trail chat with Chris was just over two years ago in October 2023, a conversation which traversed a range of topics, including the transformative effect of spending time outdoors in nature, how trail running has led to Chris pursuing a more purpose-driven career, and the impacts of climate change on the ultra and trail running world.
00:01:29
Speaker
I then caught up with Chris in November 2025, where we continued the conversation on the impacts of climate and in particular, how race directors in Victoria are navigating the risk and reward of hosting epic events in the Alpine over the summer and shoulder months.
00:01:42
Speaker
We also discussed Chris's activism and why we all have the time to care more. Chris is a massive supporter of For Wild Places and our conversations often stretch out for hours contemplating the community and the changes the industry has undergone and is going through, united by a shared passion to make the world a better place.
00:02:01
Speaker
Let's get into the initial chat between Will, Chris and friends from October
Introduction to Trail Chat and Activist Runners
00:02:05
Speaker
2023. Welcome to our 18th welcome to our eighteenth trail chat presented by for Wild Places.
00:02:13
Speaker
This trail chat is supported by SmartWool. So check them out, smartwool.com. My name is Will from For Wild Places. My pronouns are he, him. I'm based in beautiful Port Kembla on Darawal land, which is just south of Sydney.
00:02:27
Speaker
And we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of this land and pay our respects to elders past, present and future. For Wild Places is a group of activist runners with a purpose to use our love of trails as a tool to make a difference. to protect our planet and its wild places. So if that sounds like you, then join up today.
00:02:43
Speaker
We organise these chats each month with special guests to talk about running and sports activism and life and coffee, anything really. And we're stoked this month to bring you a super special guest that plenty of you won't need an intro, but I'm going to do an intro anyway. I've nicked some of it from his website.
00:03:00
Speaker
ah He's a blue sky dreamer, a trail light and a founder, found the founder of Tour de Trails. Tour de Trails is the culmination of much dreaming, an addiction to adventure, a love of trails and a lot of map porn.
00:03:12
Speaker
He was also the founding publisher slash editor of Trail one Run Mag, although no longer affiliated. And he's a consultant with TRC Tourism, which specialises in nature and trail based tourism and development across hiking, running, mountain biking, paddling and more.
00:03:27
Speaker
You might know our guest from events such as as Warby Trail Fest, Wild Mount Biripmo, don't know that one, Surf Coast Trail Marathon, or the Always Electric Afterglow Night Run.
00:03:39
Speaker
Please give a big welcome to Chris Ord. Hey, Chris. Hey, guys. How you doing? Thanks for having me. like to pay my respects to the Wadawurrung community and on land who I sit.
00:03:51
Speaker
Beautiful. Thank you. The first up question is a very technical one. We'd like to know hey you going. Yeah, I'm um pretty well. i mean, I'm at a desk, so I could be that that behind me should be outdoors.
00:04:03
Speaker
Hilary's got a better sort of concept of it, making sure she's outside. But, um you know, I'm well, thank you very much. Touching down in between various jobs. Now, Chris, we've only got an hour and it always flies by. Your resume is ridiculous. It's crazy,
Connection with Nature and Community in Trail Running
00:04:19
Speaker
very long. So I would like to go right back to the start and ask you what got you into trail running and what does trail running mean to you?
00:04:28
Speaker
Well, trail running, I guess, is something that I found. I actually found it later in life to a degree. I you know i became a trail runner as such you know in my mid-30s. But um back in the day when I was in high school, I did do a lot of cross-country running.
00:04:41
Speaker
And so I guess I did have an early affiliation, but i just didn't know it as trail running, right? I just you know i just ran. um And it was the one thing that I was sort of semi-okay at compared to you know running it around the football field, et cetera.
00:04:53
Speaker
And I grew up in a place called Warburton, where Warburton Trail Festival is. So My childhood was very much about running around in the bush, what could and should be now, yeah know the Great Forest National Park. um So, you know, and at school, I didn't really, didn't really have that many, you know, sort of close friends or whatever. So I'd come home from school and throw my bag and I just want to disappear into the bush. And I found that the bush was my safe space.
00:05:14
Speaker
You know, I'd go, you know, off trail, to be honest, not even on trail, but off trail and be um sort of through the bush, finding creek beds, finding, you know, trees to climb up. And for me, that was where I felt safe. So then fast forward to being an adult and, you know, spent my early years as an adult doing things that we can't talk about on this show, um you know, basically going around Europe and partying a bit, all that sort of stuff, but losing myself.
00:05:38
Speaker
And I think I found myself again when I found mountains again and found the trails and found the bush and reconnected, you know, we talk about connection to country. I reconnected with the concept of country, you know, later on as ah as an adult.
00:05:49
Speaker
And that brought me back to, you know, generally trekking and and travel and adventure in general. And then trail running came along. I was editing ah an adventure magazine actually. And this thing called trail running started to sort of come on the radar as part of our, you know, we looked at mountain biking and trekking and scuba diving and all sorts of different adventures. But this trail running thing sort of came along. And so I went and did a couple of stories, started these stories on on trail running and went, wow, this is, this was like home again. You know, I just sort of felt this resonance. And then I think the fact that the community that that then sort of welcomed me was exactly that welcoming.
00:06:24
Speaker
And I'm more of a creative than a competitive, you know, I'm not into winning things or, you know, being the best at anything because I'm never going to be the best at anything. But I love the way that it was welcoming, that it wasn't so much about competition. Yeah, there's people who, you know, win trial run races, et cetera, but it was about,
00:06:39
Speaker
The country, the nature, you know, stopping and looking at the views, finding waterfalls and adventure. and i was like, well, that's me. You know, I mean, I'm adventure. um I like my safe place is nature. I like being in the outdoors. So um and then there's this thing trail running. And, you know, again, that connected me back to being OK as a cross-country runner.
00:06:56
Speaker
And it all just sort of fell in place. So then I continued to then I started Trail Run Mag off the back of Editing Adventure Magazine and I guess ingratiated myself further into that community. And yeah, it's sort of been at the core of of everything I do. You know, I think like many trail runners, I'm not just a trail runner. You know, I go swimming every morning in the ocean. I do a whole bunch of other stuff. I still love trekking and and getting out there. But trail running, I think if I had to sort of and Not that I want to give up anything else, but if I had to give up everything and then choose one recreational pursuit, then then trail running's it because it just melds so many sort of positive things for me.
00:07:29
Speaker
Oh, good answer. Jeez. That connection with country, I want to come back to that with a couple of questions about that. But um before I do, I was just stalking you on Insta and unless I've messed up the timeline, are we, I think there's a big congratulations in order from the recent history, yes?
00:07:45
Speaker
ah Yes, there is. So I'm now engaged to Mish, who's my partner over in Perth and also my co-guide at Tour de Trails. Yeah, we we sort of bumped into each other. Well, there you go trial running being the corner i've met her through trial running so yeah sort of know came across each other and yeah three years later three to but years years later decided to um take that next step and and commit to each other and so yeah somewhere in on a mountain in crete i asked her to marry me and she we had a bit of a we we're kind of mutual right she had to ask me and i had to ask her so um we had each other's rings and and uh
00:08:20
Speaker
we said, right, you've got seven days while we're on this tour, guiding this tour. Neither of us knew when we were going to ask each other, but we we were sort of like, right, go. Who's going to ask each other first? And I'm not competitive, but yeah, I got him first.
00:08:31
Speaker
wow So you did win that one. Yeah, got that one in. I was more so like I could then just chill out for the rest the tour because two days in. She asked me, you know you know, I was on top of a mountain. She asked me in ah in an Ottoman castle somewhere, but it was like six or seven days. So she had six or seven days to worry about it. How she going to do this?
00:08:49
Speaker
Whereas I as got in there, took the opportunity and and went with it. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. And that's, yeah, that's a, that's a pretty good ad for trail running. Become a trail runner, meet your, meet your life partner. That's good. Yeah, absolutely. like That's lovely.
00:09:02
Speaker
No, those photos look spectacular actually. Where were you? So that was in
Trail Tours and Meaningful Travel
00:09:06
Speaker
Crete. um So one of the trail tours that we do through tour to trails is yeah. Crete seven days, beautiful spot, more of a running holiday than say some of the others that have a bit more challenge in it, but we love it just for the, don't know, Cretans are amazing. The Greeks are amazing. The food's amazing. And there's a bit of a world war two overlay there. So yeah,
00:09:21
Speaker
you know with tdt trails we we try and have a narrative of a story behind i'm a journalist i'm a bit biased but there's a lot of world war ii history history there in in terms of australians and new zealanders as well having to retreat from the nazis being parachuted in and and so we start a tour at a world war ii museum and then we run a ah canyon that they actually had to escape through like the canyon that that they had to escape the nazis from with bullets flying around them and and we tell those stories as we go and then Later on in the tour, the last run we do is down another sort of um valley where um it was the first place that the Cretan villages resisted the Nazis. It was the first time in World War II that any non-soldiers resisted an invading force.
00:09:59
Speaker
So there's all this story involved and just gets, you know, it layers the tour. it's It's about the running, but it's also about everything else that comes along, you know the history, the stories, the food and and the fun. Yeah, wow.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yes, it's not just ah spectacular environments. It's also interesting history and everything tied into one. Yeah, what's that, you know, again, you talk connection to country. Country is people and and people are stories.
00:10:23
Speaker
You know, our Aboriginal, our First Nations history is, you know, they are centred on story and their story is always connected to the land. I'd like to think that in our tours that we try and reflect that in some way at moments throughout our tours that we try and figure out how can we as a group moving through this landscape connect with it and and quite often um that's not just looking at pretty views. it's It's trying to figure out the stories, the history, the people and and their modern day stories and their historical stories as well. So yeah, we try and create that connection so that it's meaningful. You know, travel should be meaningful and and transformational. So we try and ensure that people come away from that tour transformed in some way, small ways, big ways, big life meanings, small life meanings, just transform in some way.
00:11:04
Speaker
Bang, you've just literally answered my next question. So you've ruined it. Thanks. But yeah, No, I'm going to ask it anyway because it's pretty funny though. I literally was going to ask.
00:11:17
Speaker
Well, I'll just go back and ask it. We feel a great affinity for
Advocacy and Environmental Awareness in Trail Running
00:11:20
Speaker
your work. And I ah know less about TRC tourism, but I'm a big fan of Tour de Trails, obviously. But we kind of we kind of see runners as like natural allies of the movement to um environmentalism, you know, but people who want to protect our environment. Because Once you get out into nature, why wouldn't you want to protect it? It's kind of that, um you know, the experience, yeah, it can be transformative. So, yeah, you've kind of already answered it, but I literally did want to ask you, have you seen that in your work? Like, have you, like, as well, for me, it's a bit of a theory. I um mean, I've probably seen it, but for me, it's more of an idea. But have you seen that in action where people experience the wild and then, yeah, kind of have this ah this epi this epiphany, this transformation where they then,
00:12:03
Speaker
can't believe it's so beautiful, can't believe it's under threat, want to take action to to protect it. Yeah, absolutely. yeah All the time. And then that starts from me wanting to take action because of my connection to it. So I understand inherently my connection to it and the power of that.
00:12:16
Speaker
So therefore, you know, the the next step is, well, surely that's happening with other people. And I think trail running in particular is really interesting because there's lots of other recreations that get get you out into nature.
00:12:27
Speaker
But trail running has this beautiful alchemy of community and bringing in people who may not have been outdoors kids, you know, I think a lot of people in trail running and not necessarily runners, they're not necessarily outdoorsy, they didn't always grow up camping with their parents, you know, so When you grow up with that, you you tend to it's it's ingrained in you. you know i grew up as a scout. and My dad was a scout leader.
00:12:49
Speaker
I spent time in the bushes, I said. So you know it was there from from really early. But you've got to remember a lot of people don't necessarily have that outdoors childhood. So they get to adulthood and they face all the same problems that we face in in in life, work and stress and mental health and all that sort of stuff. And they don't have that.
00:13:07
Speaker
anchor back to the outdoors. So then bring something like trail running um and it can happen in other places, mountain biking and paddling and other other sort of outdoor recreation. But those two, for instance, and surfing, you know they require skill, they require equipment.
00:13:20
Speaker
They're a slightly higher sort of barrier to get into and maintain. Trail running, like walking and trekking, you know, low barrier of entry, you know, you don't need trail running. You can just go running, right? A pair of shorts and t-shirt, away you go.
00:13:33
Speaker
So with that in mind, I think that plus that, however, whatever the alchemy is about a trail running community means that a lot of people have come into it from a non-sport, non-outdoorsy sort of background, and they're welcome to it. That's really, really important. They're not pushed away as, oh, you're not fast enough or you're not good enough or you're not skilled enough.
00:13:53
Speaker
You're not experienced enough. It's like, yeah, come, i want to show you this view as well. Look at this mountain. Isn't it cool? Look at this creek. No, isn't it awesome? And so I think that's the power of trail running in particular, and to to a degree, obviously walking as well, but walking can often become a very solitary thing or ah not always as communal, you can go walking with friends and groups, but there's there's there's not this connection that happens in trail running via events and and and then, you know, social groups and tours and lots of stuff.
00:14:20
Speaker
And so I think people are drawn into it that wouldn't be drawn into it otherwise, you know, and that is where the power lies because then it's just the magic that we all know and love, you know, they get into it, they're welcome, they feel comfortable, um they feel as though it's their place.
00:14:35
Speaker
And then, yeah, as you just said, ah how can the power of nature not win you over? Like once you have been in a beautiful place in nature and sat in the silence ah of it or, you know, there's no way that you can then walk away and go, no, I don't give a shit.
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah. You know, so trail running and then by extension, you know, that gap that I believe you guys fill at For Wild Places is that is making that bridge and saying, hey, trail runners, like you you all feel it.
00:15:00
Speaker
Let's do it. Let's actually yeah be activated. And I think that people still need activation of, you know, and i've had this discussion with Hillary at Warby Trail Fest about how, Trail runners, you know mountain bikers are really good. They're a club-based sort of community. Not not every mountain biker is in a club, but they do working bees on trails. And it's part of of just the way that they operate.
00:15:21
Speaker
Trail running, I think, has been a little bit behind the eight ball with that. It hasn't had, until you guys have come along, that impetus, that organisation to say, hey, let's be stewards of the environment.
00:15:33
Speaker
And so I think it's a really important bridge because... The momentum there is in the community and the will and the want and the care and the passion, but it's just that activation and and how to, you know, how how can I as a trail runner get out there and do a little bit more for the trails I love? So, you know, all that is is is an alchemy that means that, some yeah, change I think is is seen quite strongly in in trail running, but also outdoor recreation in in general. do You just see people and that's just the inherent power of nature, I think. You know, how can you not just love it?
00:16:02
Speaker
Yeah. yeah totally and yeah I hear what you're saying about because I love mountain biking I'm not so much into the water stuff because I just get cold and i don't really like water but um I love the land-based activities but with riding it's beautiful but I find with jogging or walking yeah like you can just much more kind of present and and in touch because you you got the sounds and like literally touching so yeah anyway I um That definitely resonates with me. And good call about the mountain bikers. It's funny, here in the Illawarra on the escarpment, there's a big debate about illegal mountain bike trails and threats to the escarpment and that kind of thing.
00:16:40
Speaker
But a lot of it has got to do with the lack of funding for national parks and some kind of um underappreciation over a long period of time. Some people want to demonise the mountain bike riders, but we actually work really close with the mountain bike riders because they they absolutely give a shit about the escarpment. And as you say, like they're actually organised and looking after a lot of these trails because no one else is.
Challenges in Trail Event Management
00:17:01
Speaker
So that's yeah that Illawarra escarpment project. I actually worked on some of that in the background for TRC tourism. So, you know, and I know that, you know we just worked on some, you know dollars and cents and economic impacts of, of whatever, but looking at the fact that, as you say, shutting down some of those illegal trails um that need to be shut down for cultural heritage purposes and then going, okay, well, where can we do it? That it's safe, sustainable. Okay. By the environment, et cetera. And you're right, you know, in general,
00:17:26
Speaker
The mountain bikers are very organised. And look, there's cowboys in every single community. There'll be trail runners who get to a gate that says, don't go here, that still jump the gate and go there, right? Or, you know, run into a water catchment that they shouldn't be. in And mountain bikers are no different. You're going to get some cowboys. But in general, the mountain biking community are really well organised and very, very pro-environment. I mean, what's happening at Warburton and what happened at Warburton with the mountain bike trails there, I have never seen a mountain bike project jump through so many environmental hoops.
00:17:54
Speaker
they went above and beyond and spent millions of dollars and did every due diligence that they could based on the fact that they were, you know, um pinged with what's usually reserved for a uranium mine, you know, you know, it's the first ever time a mountain project's been pinged with what they had to go through.
00:18:09
Speaker
And to see the process and guy called Matt Harrington was the lead of that project for the Arrow Ranges and to see what they did to try and make sure that anywhere that they were going to put a trail was protected, was safe, was secure, was not only, you know, looked at protecting the environment and keeping it sustainable, but regeneration, you know, again, day job is doing trail development, where can we put trails, and it's moved on from being sustainable, which is keeping it a level to say, well, if we put these trails in, how can we make the environment around it better than it was, and that's becoming also a thing in in tourism, you know, um in general.
00:18:44
Speaker
You know, i'm I'm doing some work on some strange enough, some weird stuff in in Saudi Arabia at the moment. And everything I've written it has to go back to not just sustainability, but regeneration. How can the environment win if we put tourism or trails into that place?
00:19:00
Speaker
And behind everything that people don't see is that development that goes on consultants like me, et cetera, in the background, who are actually the environment and culture is at the core of everything. And then we build what's possible around that.
00:19:13
Speaker
It's not about going in and going, we just want trails, so we're just going to put it wherever. yeah Mountain bikers in general are a really good and and very respectful environment. And they're the same as trail runners. They want a beautiful place and they want it to remain beautiful and and want it there for eons moving ahead.
00:19:28
Speaker
Good call. Just on your point about the environment, look, one of the things we wanted to ask you is based on your work and particularly your research, how have environmental conditions, particularly climate change, impacted events?
00:19:42
Speaker
Climate change itself, the biggest impact is just risk management, insurance, that kind of thing. But the risk management of, you know, I mean, we look at Oscar's 100 Hut to Hut that we have. you know, we have it in February. It's up in the high country. Smack bang right in the middle of fire season, right?
00:19:57
Speaker
And, you know, I'm seeing that, you know, our risk mitigation and our our time dedicated to risk is just increasing and increasing and increasing because, you know and we've looked at many times, you know, how do we move it, where do we move it, you know, et cetera, e cetera. it doesn't matter where you go. We've had snow up there in February. We've had hailstorms. We've had freezing cold.
00:20:15
Speaker
we've had We've had to come off the main course because of fire danger. And that will happen in nearly any month. And obviously we can't be up there in winter months. So I think the climate change is just sort of impacts risk management. We've taken over the GAU 100, the Great Ocean, what we call now the Great Ocean Ultra, down on the Great Ocean Walk. We were supposed to be doing it, taking it over for the first time this year.
00:20:37
Speaker
Can't happen. That is based on negotiations with Park Vic, who have said it's the worst state we've ever seen it in, you know in terms of water. damage and some of the trail along there is just you know completely cut up and they're basically saying look based on the state that's in now we've never seen it as bad we just can't say that we'd be able to give you the go ahead in October it might it might dry up but um it probably won't and also we can't get in there and do the the the level of remediation And it was actually based on budget. So they said, if we get budget from the state government, you know, budget coming out, we'll probably be able to get it to a point where we can have your people on it.
00:21:12
Speaker
um They didn't get the budget. And, you know, and we're working very closely with parks. You know, this is not a us versus them thing. You know, we're we're working with them and we want to try and figure out for GOW in particular, what is the put back? What is the give back?
00:21:24
Speaker
But the change in trail conditions is very much down to climate change. You know, they're seeing seasonally, the the rangers on the ground are seeing seasonally things that they just haven't seen, you know, before um in terms of both wet and heat, bushfire at risk, you know, right down to more snakes, less, than all that sort of stuff, you know, the grass growth and also sea sea level rises and coastal erosion.
00:21:48
Speaker
That's playing into it too. Another job that I worked on was for Gorkapa, which is the Great Ocean Road Coastal Parks Authority down here. And they're taking over all the trials, including the Great Ocean Walk. And we looked at doing a trials master plan for them.
00:21:59
Speaker
And within that, you know, where there's a lot of concentration now on on climate change mitigation. So, you know, when you're planning, you know, there's a big new walk plan down here. And for some reason, the architects had it like right...
00:22:11
Speaker
David Brophy- it right on on the coast and we're saying you've got to go inland like you're just setting yourself up for failure if you're putting it there and the surf coast walk here behind me. Brophy- is a prime example of that where it keeps getting shifted back based on the coastal erosion now not all all of that is climate change based um some of that natural process of erosion but.
00:22:29
Speaker
in terms of trail planning and event planning. You know, there's surf coast trail marathons on that particular trail, surf coast centuries on that particular trail. There's some smaller events on that trail. All of them can't go ahead if the whole thing's just washed away, right?
00:22:42
Speaker
And so we have to kind of look at at that going back to the trail planning stuff. But... um Climate change is huge, mostly in terms of that risk management, no just people on trails, you know, and maybe even take away the event side of things, but just more people are going out there, recreating on trails.
00:22:58
Speaker
The job I do in the day job in terms of trail development is great. You know, there's trails planned here, there and everywhere. ah You know, there's more demand for it. And, but that also means putting more people into nature, which is inherently, you know, an unpredictable thing. And that's partly why we love it.
00:23:13
Speaker
But that also means, you know, that risk mitigation without wanting to mollycoddle people in the bush, you want people to have an adventure experience, but you've still got to be mindful of fire, you know, fire danger periods and what that means and how you manage that and how you manage communications for people being out there, et cetera. So that's probably the biggest impact is just across events and just recreation. Yeah.
00:23:33
Speaker
What are the land managers need to do just to do the best they can do to keep people as safe as possible? Yeah. I have quick question on the back of that, Chris. How do you feel like as participants, they're,
00:23:45
Speaker
like people who are signing up to these events, you feel like they're recognizing the risks and kind of being willing to, you know, maybe pay like, you know, it's going to cost you more because you're spending more time on all this risk mitigation. But how do you feel like the general public are kind of accepting those changes and are are they?
00:24:02
Speaker
And how do we do that in a way that people actually understand the work that you go through to bring an event to life when they just turn up and everything's all, you know, all taken care of? Yeah, I mean, I think it's hard. I don't think that the part participant will ever really comprehend what goes into And, you know, you you've put on events, you you understand this. No one really is going to. And it's probably not incumbent upon them to understand, you know, understand oh, woe are us as event operators and it's all very hard.
00:24:25
Speaker
You know, we, let's face it, most of us do it because we're passionate about it and we want to deliver a really good experience and put people in the bush safely, right? But to the other point about do they really understand the risks and what goes on in in putting them out there? I don't know. And I think there's more people obviously coming from either a non-outdoors background or roadrunners discovering trail running who don't necessarily understand. So and that you can see that in things like more people not taking their mandatories.
00:24:52
Speaker
you know and not, and not, and you know, they just see it as a bothering i rule. and It's an imposter. And, you know i'm only running 20 Why do I have to carry a snake bandage? You know, well, cause you can die without one. It's very simple. um And you do get more of that laissez-faire kind of attitude or sometimes even righteous attitude. But, you know, again, I think the people who understand it,
00:25:12
Speaker
Never, you know, they totally get it. But it's the people who are maybe new to being in the environment who just don't understand it. And outside of trail running, you see you see that. A clear example is someone coming off the plane in Bondi and jumping into the water and getting taken out in the rip, right?
00:25:26
Speaker
Zero understanding of what they're actually doing, what taking on and being part part of and being in Mother Nature is actually about. And I guess that's the role of events, land managers, organisations like yourself, just to help educate. I mean, the answer to most things in in the world that are problematic is education, right? it like But how you get people to stop their busy lives and actually take on board information is really hard. like the number of people who do not read, you know, it's mandatory. You have to read the event programs for, you know, you know, and I say in all my race briefings, you should have read it. You shouldn't have a general sense of where the course goes. You should know to keep the ocean to your left for the most part, the road to your right. You can't get lost.
00:26:07
Speaker
People get lost, you know, and they haven't read the event program that they haven't got. ah I didn't know that, you know, and it's, I think the real problem is how do you get people to actually stop and take time to um allow themselves to be educated?
00:26:21
Speaker
Totally. We've tried to put on a few trail running first aid courses down on the peninsula and we've just had no uptake, you know, and it's people like the idea of it and wanting to like know how to use what gear we have in our running best to help us out of a pickle, but actually getting people to to sign up and commit the time and the money to doing that is another thing.
00:26:43
Speaker
um is a bit of an impasse and it's just an interesting one because I think yeah we all like the idea of being more educated but not the actual time and like you said patients that are required to actually have that education yeah yeah exactly everyone's going many miles an hour whether it's a job freelance job whatever it is they're just doing this the whole time to stop and get that in is is hard yeah you kind of covered it actually but yeah was going to follow up before about what can trial runners and and event organizers do to not just kind of mitigate the impacts of climate change, but in a sense
Adapting to Climate Change and Small Actions
00:27:14
Speaker
adapt to it. But yeah, you kind of covered it, but um risks obviously the the big one, but the the whole insurance question kind of freaks me out. Like whether we want to, whether we need to look more to doing events on private land and not public land to avoid some of these things. oh I don't know, like what, um
00:27:30
Speaker
Sorry, you did kind of cover it a bit, but and any other thoughts on what we can do to adapt to this changing world? Yeah, look, I think if I knew the answer, I'd, you know, I'd be on some speaking to, I reckon. But um to be honest, I don't know. I can't, my little, tiny little brain can't wrap my head around lots of things in this world, you know, from current conflicts to stuff like climate change.
00:27:50
Speaker
I think sometimes there's more work going on behind the scenes with things like land managers, et cetera, than we think. um and and they're doing their best, but obviously getting bogged down in budgets and bureaucracy, right?
00:28:01
Speaker
How the individual can change. I mean, I guess it's it's just all the small things. It's it's trying to just, small things and habits. You know, I think I know with my you know, I'm like everyone else. I'm running around doing a million things, trying to,
00:28:12
Speaker
keep my head above water. And if I think about it all, I get panicked and anxious. And it so I'd break it down and just just do the the little things. One tiniest little thing, the 1% is, you know, Jess Douglas, you know, champion mountain bike racer, you know, you used to call it the 1% is,
00:28:28
Speaker
And if you just, it's the one percenters that probably add up. And know for me, you know, taking small bites of the elephant, you know, if if if climate change the elephant, well, you can't move it, right? Like you just by yourself, by pushing against the whole elephant. But if you start just doing the little things and and and taking small bites, and if we're all doing that, then, you know, maybe the elephant can kind of move a bit or change a bit. And so for me, that it's probably the biggest thing is is the smallest things, the one percenters.
00:28:54
Speaker
And I think collectively, that'd be great. And they're the things that, you know, again, your organization tries to encourage and things like your first day course, that's got nothing to do with climate change. I know, but putting it out there is just your first 1% and no one comes, but then you might put it out there again or find a different way to do it or a different date or ask feedback. back and And then your next 1%, you might get three people along and then it just sort of happens. And i know for me,
00:29:17
Speaker
it's the little things even down to boring old you know recycling and stuff like that and tiny things i'll take the lid off the glass you know because you're supposed to take the lid off the glass before we put the glass in and then and now is that going to make a big difference are they recycling properly or not i don't know but i'll at least start with something and i think that those one percent is rolling to two percent is rolling to something else it might even you know roll into activism or who knows but um start somewhere. used to go in a lot of meetings, a lot of people sort of drag me into meetings, especially brands and stuff. And they're, you know, how can we get into trial running, do this, do that. do doda
00:29:49
Speaker
And it's, it's just do it. Like i keep saying, you know if you just ignore everything I've just said, just, just do it, actually do it and be committed to it. And people come to me and ask me for advice. How can I do what you do, Chris, or how can I get into this industry or that industry?
00:30:01
Speaker
And I remember one in particular, and and again, it was just, just do it, stop talking about it. And do it. Don't do it perfectly. If you can't do it perfectly, just just do it imperfectly is better than not doing it because you want it to be perfect.
00:30:12
Speaker
And I think in this world of, you know, perfection and image and visage and all that sort of stuff that people people do hold off doing things. They dream a lot because we're taught to dream and they talk a lot because they think that that's going to put it into action.
00:30:26
Speaker
But there's very few people who just do it. And I find those people who do it are not the ones who do the big thing off the bat perfectly. They just do the little thing. you know In a way, it's like the reality of manifestation. Manifestation is not sitting here just thinking about what you want to happen.
00:30:43
Speaker
It's thinking about it, but then doing the little 1%. And that 1% five years later leads to that bigger thing that you had back in your mind all the way back. So for climate change, 1% is do the do the small stuff.
00:30:56
Speaker
Agreed. i think that's really wise because, yeah, the the big problem is daunting. And actually that what what what you're saying about just do it, that sounds very similar to, um I forget who came up with this quote, but the the idea that once you know better, do better.
00:31:09
Speaker
What else can we do? And I think those 1% and just doing it Also by power of example, it still comes back to education and awareness and consciousness and that kind of thing and conscious raising. And in the end, that's that's actually what what needs to happen, I think. so And and take take a bit of a risk, especially, you know, as long as you're not hurting anybody, you're not putting anybody at risk, you know, i do it. And, you know, I mean, a very immediate thing for me is, you know, I'm heartbroken at what's happening in the world right now in terms of the broader issues, you know, in the Middle East.
00:31:40
Speaker
And I've been posting stuff about it, you know, and every time I got a post goal of people is going to, either I'm going to get pushed back or i'm going to get people saying, why are you saying stuff about it it or whatever it is? And I just keep thinking, ah yeah what's the worst that can happen? Someone can unfollow me or someone can not agree with what I've got to say.
00:31:55
Speaker
No one's going to die because of what I do or what I post or the education or the the information that I'm trying to put out there because I care about it because I think it it matters. And so I very much, and and through most of my life, I very much, as long as no one's getting hurt, I have that attitude of just have a crack, like just do something. It's better than doing nothing. And I saw, strangely enough, on social media. I can't remember who it was, but his whole diatribe was really good. But he was saying, you know thinking it is not doing it. Talking about it is not doing it. Sharing the idea is not doing it, you know, and went through a whole bunch of things that is is not doing it. And then yeah doing it is the only thing that is doing it.
00:32:29
Speaker
It's super bloody simple. And that's what you got to do. just And again, it doesn't have to be the whole thing. can be just sign up to for wild places, like come to one of those those things just once or just send you guys a congratulatory email saying, well done on what you're doing. Can't get your stuff at the moment, but I love what you're doing. That then inspires you guys to to keep it keep with it and keep going the fight, right?
00:32:48
Speaker
Their 1% helps your 1%. when I do my plug for membership later, I'll just get people to rewind to this point. yeah Now, we are smashing through this hour.
00:33:00
Speaker
So I get to ask this before we run out of time. what do you got coming up the rest of this year and early, early next year? Oh, that's a good question. um At the moment I'm doing, i'm I'm planning some stuff for some adventure cycling up in Northern New South Wales, which is a job as in, you know, organizing the logistics in terms of,
00:33:17
Speaker
a council wants to put more people out on back country roads for a tourism experience. So I've kind of been working on that. I've been working on some Saudi stuff, which I've got to finish off, which is putting people on trails in Northern Saudi Arabia with a lot of regenerative stuff, which is quite kind of interesting. and there's pros and cons to that job and the ethics of being involved with a particular country you know and all that sort of entails, but I won't go into ah all of that, but that's been really, really interesting and and culturally enlightening for me. I was there for 14 days.
00:33:46
Speaker
um And again, you know, what you see in the media is not necessarily what's happening on the ground with the people. So I've got that. Obviously, you've got Afterglow coming up on the 18th of November. I've got an event, got Wild Mount, which is out past Ballarat. A good little loop just to finish off the year.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I think that's... Oh, and then planning at the moment, I'm working on a job that is the Birrarung Valley Walk. So, you know, we have a group that's interested in getting a walk route from basically Williamstown all the way up to the Up Yarra Dam.
00:34:14
Speaker
and tying together, you know, existing trails where possible, et cetera. And it's very much focused on First Nations and storytelling. And they have the blessing of the First Nations community all along that corridor. If that project ever came to fruition, it'd be great. And it's not, ah you know, it wouldn't be a hugely technical walking trail and it uses a lot of pathways and trails that exist. But That's a really fascinating one. I'm just helping them out with some mapping at the moment and and that conceptual side of things so that they can go forward and hopefully get some funding.
00:34:41
Speaker
So, yeah, so that's, you know, chuckug again, juggling the balls. And and then, yeah, next year gets busy with events. So, you know, we have a duathlon up on Mount Buller. We have Oscar's Hut, the Hut 100 in February and Warby Trail Fest in in March. So the first sort quarter of next year is is events for me.
00:34:58
Speaker
and the And the last bit of this year is a couple of events and finishing off um some consultancy stuff in the trail space. So good. I've got a gazillion more questions on such different topics that we need about 36 hours. um Does anyone else have any questions for Chris?
00:35:15
Speaker
I have it. Well, it's probably not a quick one, Chris, but when you're looking for new trails and stuff and not necessarily for events, but for your own adventures, what are your kind of go-to apps and and how do you, you know, plan a fun day out, you know, in a place that you've never maybe been before?
00:35:31
Speaker
Good question. A million different mapping apps. For me, it's about cross correlation and that's with my work stuff because a lot of what I do is in the mapping and finding trails and finding places and points of interest um in the wilderness.
00:35:43
Speaker
ah So, I mean, for for guiding, we use Gaia GPS quite a lot. So myself and Nish and any other guys like Frenchy who guides with us in France, you know, we use Gaia to to make sure because we can use that offline. Yeah. So you pay, you know, guys, I think 30 bucks or something like that. But it means that you can download the backing maps.
00:36:01
Speaker
You can have your GPX on it and you can see where you are relative to where you should be. And their topography underneath is probably the best that you can get on that sort of consumer level. So yeah, Gaia GPS, a lot of planning I do on all trails.
00:36:14
Speaker
That's a lot more simple than GPS, but it's it's just good for for easy, quick planning. And then I usually export out of that and into other applications. I always reference back to Google Earth to see what the terrain like and, you know, what what's going on from that sort of side of things.
00:36:27
Speaker
And then sometimes um government mapping applications. So if I'm doing jobs in Victoria or Australia in general, each state has their own mapping sort of portals that is actually publicly available. And they're quite often the same maps that the emergency services use, et cetera. So they're about as detailed as you're going to get.
00:36:44
Speaker
And, you know, maps are a human constructed thing, right? Like they're based on information that humans have, have, gone and and got and no human ever gets all information so all the maps have different degrees of information one map will say there's a trail there one map will say it's not you'll go to that trail and that trail doesn't exist because that information has come from 20 years ago and never been scrubbed off the map so yeah i try and cross reference and that gives me a clearer picture of what might actually be on the ground Sometimes it's really hard. You know, I've got, you talk about my own little projects and and and things I'd love to do. I've got a climate change project I'd love to do actually in Vanuatu, which is about a 300 odd K run trek around and an untracked section of Espirito Santo, which is an island.
00:37:28
Speaker
And the reason i want to go and do that is because there's villages all around there, but no roads. There's no roads throughout this peninsula. And there's villages around it. They usually boat back in, you know, bringing their fish or whatever it is to the village to sell in the market and go back.
00:37:41
Speaker
But they're being impacted by climate change. And Vanuatu was one of the first countries to go to the UN and say, hey, this ain't fair. You know, what you guys are doing is impacting us. And there's, you know, villages had to move back where their market gardens are behind their villages have changed.
00:37:54
Speaker
How their stuff grows has changed. They're like on the front line of climate change, right? and So I wanted to sort of go in there, use trail running, similar to you guys in terms of, you know, venture and trails, go in there.
00:38:06
Speaker
and And do an expedition which goes around it okay around, goes from village to village. And my thinking is that the villages ah sort of far apart, but they will have trails, they will have people walking between the villages, no roads, but they'll have trails, not on any map.
00:38:21
Speaker
So, you know, going back to the mapping question, I'm looking at Google Maps, I'm looking at old school bits and bobs that you find on um on Google. And there's some places there's just no information. So I'm zooming down on Google and I'm seeing like what looks like a line. Like that's, if it's not a trail, it's it's I could get along it, you know?
00:38:38
Speaker
And, know, typically that does that's not always the case. You can get on the ground. I've done that before and got the ground. You're like, there's no trail here. This is actually swamp. but So, yeah, for that, you know, ah there are no government maps that I can get into.
00:38:51
Speaker
There's no you know, all trails and even Gaia won't really give me much. So it's it's Google and then it's get out there. and And that's why it's an expedition because you don't know what the hell you're going to find. So, um you know, that's what I'm really sort of keen on figuring out how I can get going at some stage.
00:39:06
Speaker
Yeah, that sounds amazing. That would be totally amazing. Wow. Yeah, it'd be good. and And the idea is obviously as we go between, we talk to some of the chiefs of each of the villages and just get their lived experience, you know, and the the the elders of those villages will be able to tell you on a longitudinal, you know, they've been there all their lives. They can say, yeah, the water used to burn and now it's there.
00:39:25
Speaker
Yeah. with us I guess following on from that, um it kind of reminds me of a lot of the, like you do a lot of work, like doing photography, like, and um and other bits with the likes of Bo Miles, who are amazing storytellers, especially like, you know, having seen Bad River and, you know, in terms of trying to educate people about things and, you know, what's what's happening in places that they'll never actually visit, but, you know, they can experience through a
Storytelling and Future Projects
00:39:52
Speaker
movie or something. How do you see the likes of, yeah, I guess storytelling and how can people
00:39:59
Speaker
do it in a way, I guess, what are the effective ways that you've seen maybe things you've learned from Beau in terms of how do you tell a story that is authentic, that doesn't necessarily mean people are inspired to go and do that thing, but they're just like, this is really cool. And I've learned something about a place that I'd never even heard of before and wouldn't have ever cared about.
00:40:18
Speaker
Yeah, well, mean, I'm biased because I'm a journalist by trade. So storytelling is core to me and whether it's storytelling through an event or storytelling through a tour or with Bo. And I mean, my you know original role with Bo as well as being a cameraman was to be a story editor. So i I would help direct him, you know, in terms of how to build a story.
00:40:35
Speaker
And, you know, in early days before his filmmaking, you know, i used to get him to sort of write for the adventure magazines. And, you know, so I'd edit him and his storytelling, et cetera. So and and you've seen what where he's taken that to.
00:40:47
Speaker
Again, the eyeballs that he gets now through being Bo, because, you know, he's just such a likable bloke. um But, you know, he's he says he's got interesting things to say. um and And I think it's really important. And he he hits a really beautiful sweet spot that he's not preaching. He's not beating anyone around the head. it's It's not a hard hitting documentary, but that allows people to stay in the story.
00:41:09
Speaker
And don't get me wrong. You know, i've I've had disagreements with Bo in terms of exactly that storytelling. I'm keen on going hard on the issues, you know, journalists hard. I want to go hard on the issues down at Queenstown. want to go hard on,
00:41:20
Speaker
you know, the stuff, um you know, the mining and stuff in Central Australia, where he's like, no, well, let's just keep it a little bit light and we'll sort of, you know, touch on things here and there um and do his bowisms.
00:41:31
Speaker
And he's right because, you know, if he makes a documentary in that style, he'll get way more eyeballs than me making a serious documentary about Vanuatu. You know, I'll get bugger all eyeballs. I'll do it anyway because I just want to tell the story. But I don't have his charisma or his character and my storytelling is is much more down that line of,
00:41:48
Speaker
you know foreign affairs, serious, I want to tell a story that needs to be told. Unfortunately, in ah in our world of quick hit information and entertainment and infotainment and lots of stuff, that's not what gets you the biggest eyeballs.
00:42:01
Speaker
But then vice versa, if you see all those influencers and stuff putting out the same old pretty pictures, I also don't think that makes a difference. And they might get the eyeballs, but it doesn't make any, to me, it doesn't make a difference. And that's where both interesting He gets people engaged um and makes a difference.
00:42:16
Speaker
Whereas i think people just putting out pretty pictures, you know, a lot lot of adventure porn, amazing stuff. And i've seen so many people making movies and stuff that essentially is just a music video of some pretty pictures and they've got drones and it all looks amazing. but um I think without that story, and I think the more fragmented our media gets, and we're all watching different channels throughout 20 different and Instagrams and Facebooks and whatever, um your audiences actually get smaller.
00:42:42
Speaker
And the thing that will cut through is storytelling. And again, I'll put my hand up and say I'm biased. But as human beings, we are always interested in story and how does a story reflect on us?
00:42:53
Speaker
We're all selfish individuals. We all want it to matter to us without us having to make the decision that I should care about that. So storytelling, if it's done right,
00:43:04
Speaker
um will reach into the heart of of anyone. And, you know, back in some of the adventure magazine days we had, when we wrote a feature, our aim for a feature in any magazine was not just to write a feature for an adventure loving person or an outdoors person.
00:43:19
Speaker
My idea was we should be going to take this feature out and put it into the Australian magazine, the Good Weekend magazine, a non-adventure outdoors magazine, and it should still hit the mark with the first paragraph, drop people in and like Connect Four, drop people through the article and they should come out being transformed in some way. you know, they've've they've been interested because at the heart of that adventure outdoors, hardcore, whatever story is a human being,
00:43:42
Speaker
and the human being has changed and there's yeah there's tropes of of storytelling, you know the three-hour structure and how you pull people through, a drama, conflict, resolution and change, that's becoming more and more powerful because it's actually quite rare. and you know There's a lot of content, there's fewer story.
00:44:01
Speaker
That's really interesting. Thank you You've got me thinking now, what how do we kind of, I guess, pull that into what we're doing here and make it about Yeah, it's essentially about people, like anything we do is is centred around people.
00:44:15
Speaker
Yep, absolutely. Yeah, there's been a few things in this last hour that's got me thinking, Hill, about how we can how we can use this. Yeah. ah Sorry, did you have a follow-up, Hill?
00:44:26
Speaker
No, I'm all good for now. I'm just contemplating, you know, the world and how we fix it through storytelling. Yeah. um Bugger, we should wind up soon. But Chris, this is just a personal question. i'm not sure if anyone else is interested, but your work and passion is very mixed, which is ideal. I think it's great. Do you still get a chance just to get out and and feel like a kid in the in the wild and have beautiful moments running? Like like it's not...
00:44:49
Speaker
it's not all just work for you now do you still get to get out there and do it yeah look i do um i mean a lot of it is you know in the role of some kind of work but if i'm out marking a trail for an event you know by myself in the back of warburton somewhere i'll have a big grin on my face i'm a kid adventuring i happen to be putting up a few ribbons you know the other day in saudi arabia my job was to go out into this place called the hizma desert and hoot around there and i was there to you know analyze and assess and blah blah blah but you know there i am that night sleeping on a on a sand dune with one other bloke um having mint tea looking at the sun go down and ah biggest grin on my face like i'm still a kid going holy crap i'm being paid to do this now you know it's not all beer and skittles because i'm a freelancer right so things are like up and down and and i'll never be a rich man but i think my riches are experience and that's ah a little bit of a cliche as well but my riches are experience so
00:45:39
Speaker
Yeah, like there's been times where I've been out mountain biking around forests, auditing trails, going, I am the richest man on the planet. I'm here on a Wednesday, you know, or, you know, out on the the June or I'm tour guiding in Crete. And, you know, that doesn't earn a cent, doesn't earn a penny. In fact, it loses me a penny.
00:45:56
Speaker
But it's still like, here I am. Somehow I've managed to figure it out. So I'm running along a trail on the coast of Crete. So all of those times I'm still a kid. And I think we all have imposter syndrome and and ah I don't actually understand, you know, that corporate world where people are doing important jobs at the head of big corporations and whatever. And I just look at them and go, i know you're still a kid in there and you're just, you're just a dude who doesn't know really what's going on, but you're making up on the fly the same way we all are doing, you know? And I think,
00:46:26
Speaker
I think we're all kids. It's just how we then transfer that into the outer world, how we give that back to the world. Can we do that, you know, in ah in a positive way, in a way that that uses that for good? Or do we suffer from that? Let's hide that little kid and act like we're really important and... and Yada yada, which ends up in you know angry conversations and negative outcomes and negativity and power and all that sort of garbage rather than humanity. And I think, man, the kids, you know, i hate to say it, but, you know, the last thing I i would watch before was a video of a mother driving kids back to northern Gaza, right?
00:47:02
Speaker
And in it's awful. her Her safe place is heading back to the bombing. And she points out and there's bombs dropping and she's heading back to home. She said, well, they're bombing me down there. They're bombing me up there. and might as well go to my home and die with dignity.
00:47:15
Speaker
And a camera goes to the back and there's the kids in the back. And he this kid's smiling like like they're driving down to McDonald's. And you go, kids, to be a kid, like that's the best place to be, right?
00:47:27
Speaker
And I think that's exactly it. Take you to trail running, you're running on the trail there's a puddle. Oh, I would think it's every time. There's a puddle. And there's two people. There's people who go around it. There's people who stand right in middle of it, right?
00:47:38
Speaker
And I'll stand right in the middle of it every single time and feel like, and then bang, I'm a kid. I'm playing, right? And that power of play, play in nature in particular, is, you know, the whole world the whole world needs trail running and there needs to be the type of trail runners who splash in a puddle as they go past.
00:47:55
Speaker
That is such a perfect way to wind up. Except i can't resist asking, how do you course mark on a desert sand dune? Well, there's a Santa. Saudi wasn't about events or races or anything like that. So um I don't know is the answer. You don't have to ask the mob that do the Simpson Desert Ultra or, you know, one of those guys. ah like Yeah, I don't know. It would be a good question. But, yeah, you know, when I was there, we were looking at trails. They're actually in mountain massives. So there's canyons and it's it's not the desert that you think of. That's the that's the the empty quarter down in the south south of the country. where ah We're up in the north. If you think of Wadi Rum in Jordan,
00:48:35
Speaker
Basically, where the Hizma is an extension of Wadi Rum. It's extension of those sorts of landscapes. So there's sand dunes in between in the Wadis, but lots of trails or you know ancient trails of Bedouins who go into the canyons and they're hunting or they're finding water or whatever.
00:48:51
Speaker
But it's interesting. That's one of the questions we're answer or the guy that's designing all the trails there needs to answer. What's his way marking technique, especially when you get to a Wadi and you've got to go one kilometre across a sand dune? Yeah.
00:49:02
Speaker
Good question. Technology. ah I have one final question for you, Chris, just what you were with that last question. ah i'd be interested to know your reflections on the common trope that students are told that like, you know, you do a job you do you love and you never work a day in your life.
00:49:17
Speaker
And I feel like now people are really trying to you know, find, which is a good thing, you know, find work that they love, but. you know, through your career, how have you, how has that kind of rung true or or false for you? And I guess with a lot of people finishing school for another year, like how do you do that in a way that, I don't know, is sustainable for you as a human living in a consumerist world, but also making sure that you are embracing and able to get out there and do work that you love and,
00:49:43
Speaker
be like how am I getting paid for this stuff? It's hard and I think yeah do something you're passionate about you never work a day in your life it's true but it's also not true in terms of you're still going to work there's lots of things I've got to do sitting front of a computer and marketing and you know I'm not I don't like social media in terms of the marketing side of it and there's lots of things you still got to you still got to work but I think the difference is when you're working doing something you don't like a task that you don't like for something you're passionate about you know, you've got the fight in your belly.
00:50:11
Speaker
And I think you've got to have the fight in your belly for whatever you do. I'm biased, but I'm not a big fan of the education system in general as a concept. I think it serves its place to a degree, but I keep telling my two daughters are like, you know, what happens at your high school?
00:50:25
Speaker
And even if you go to university or not, does not define the rest of your life. It just doesn't. It can play a part. You want to be a doctor, you've got to go to uni. But, you know, lots of successful people have not finished education and gone on to live very happy lives.
00:50:38
Speaker
They're still educated in terms of life. They still, you know, they take on board education themselves. So, yeah I think just it's don't be caught into the system for the sake of the system. And I'm not rallying against the system so much, but I'm just saying if you're going to go and put a lot of importance on high school or university, know why.
00:50:57
Speaker
you know, and and make those reasons valid rather than doing it because your parents told you to or because the system and, and you know, you've got to get your high grade point average to get into that thing. And you know what? You'll never work if you don't have a degree.
00:51:08
Speaker
Well, I suffered at that hands. I was told you need to go and get a degree, Chris. And I went and got a degree and I haven't really used it that much. It was sort of relevant what I do, but I could have still ended up right where I am without that degree through taking decisions in life and following gut instinct and following passion and making decisions based on that.
00:51:26
Speaker
And realizing that it's a long journey, you know, like I totally understand from the outside people look at the things I do and maybe the Instagram feed when it's going mad when I'm away and you'll notice it goes silent when I'm at home working on a report, right? but um But it's that's that's a 25 year journey, right?
00:51:45
Speaker
um And lots of mistakes, you know, i slept walked into a corporate career, I nearly ended up in a gutter. And if I didn't get out of that corporate career, I literally, I would be still in that gutter. doing lots of bad things. Like, i you know, I was on a path to nowhere. And the only reason that I didn't end up there is because I listened to my gut and I took a risk and I thought, you know what, ah I've got to go that direction, not that direction, because that's where my gut is. That's where my head is.
00:52:10
Speaker
That's where everyone's telling me to go. im going to follow my instincts. And down that path can sometimes be bit rough, but... you then have the strength to follow on because you're fueled by the passion, the interests, and they'll get you through those moments. Whereas if you go the other way, passion interest is gone. You're doing it for the money because people expect you to do it or whatever.
00:52:29
Speaker
And you and you you do, I know, I won't name it, but i know people in this empty inside. Right. So, and also to understand that it's not the old school train for a career and that's what you do for the rest of your life.
00:52:41
Speaker
You can always, I hate the word, but you can always pivot. I mean, im I'm not an event director. ah No idea how to bloody run an event. Never thought I didn't go back in high school and go, I'm going to run events ever. Or tours for that matter.
00:52:52
Speaker
you know I was going to be, i was going to a pilot and then I was going be a journalist. And that was it. That was all I saw. I was like this, but you know, be willing to change, be willing to be open to opportunity as well and and leave all the doors open and and then take the one that where your gut in your heart goes to.
00:53:06
Speaker
Excellent advice. Excellent advice. We should wind up, folks. Chris, thanks so much for taking time day to hang out with us. Oh, good. It's been ah been a pleasure. Thanks for letting me ramble on and get a few things off of my chest, maybe.
00:53:20
Speaker
That's what trail chats are for. Absolutely. No, it's great. And look, guys, congratulations on what you guys doing. And, and, you know, I'm not just blowing wind anywhere. I think what you guys are doing is really good and I can see that it's, it's growing and, and, you know, stay with it because it's, it's really, it's a really important bridge, like I said, and it's really worthy, valid stuff where the one person turns up or 10 or 20 or a hundred, stay the path. Cause it's bloody inspirational.
00:53:44
Speaker
Oh, thanks so much, mate. But yeah, I, On that note, folks, if you're looking in um and if that resonated with you, then please check out for Wild Places, forwildplaces.com. We're actually currently doing a bit of a push for membership.
00:53:57
Speaker
And really, the reason to join is everything we've been talking about today and that use your user running as a tool for good for the planet and for and for people. um But just to sweeten the deal, there's also some awesome gear that you can um you can get a chance to go in drawers for, or there's there's all kinds of awesome giveaways, check out the website for more detail.
00:54:18
Speaker
ah These trial chats are supported by SmartWool. Thanks, heapsmartwool.com. But yeah, to wind up, thanks again for coming. I want to say something about the world, but I just think I'll leave it. Go back and listen to what Chris said earlier, but we are sending out messages and vibes of peace and also yeah goodwill to folks everywhere.
00:54:39
Speaker
Chris, thanks again for checking in and let's stay in touch. And I think we probably need about 17 more trial chats to cover the stuff we talked about today. Yeah, and that'd be great. Anytime guys, really appreciate it.
00:54:51
Speaker
Awesome. Thanks, everyone. We'll finish up there. Be safe. And Kate, keep jumping in those puddles. That's that's a quote I'm going to steal from Chris. Yeah, yeah. Always jump in the puddles. i' let you like Unless you you think that they might be like a four-wheel drive rut and going – I've seen that happen. That's not so good.
00:55:06
Speaker
No, it's one of those ones. Jump in the fun ones, the fun ones. Yeah. All right, guys. Thanks.
00:55:13
Speaker
And now we're going to jump forward to November 2025 to hear how the Great Ocean Trail Ultra is progressing now that it's in its second year and how the trail and ultra world is changing in Victoria and beyond.
00:55:28
Speaker
Thanks so much for joining us, Chris. Last time we talked, it was back October 2023, so few years And in that conversation, we talked about your path to trail running and how you now focus your career around the sport.
00:55:43
Speaker
um And we also touched on the impacts of climate change, which I want to delve into in a little bit. But before we start, I want to know where are you today and how have you been? I'm in Wadahurrung country and I've been wonderfully wonderful. so Yeah, I'm down on the surf coast in Victoria, fresh off go to Great Ocean Trail Ultra about a week ago.
00:56:02
Speaker
So still in some ways recovering from that. That was a 24 hour day. um As you know, Hillary, events are an intensive ah thing for the organisers. So yeah, still recovering from that, I feel. Because last time we spoke, you were just about to, I guess, launch it for 2024 and now you've just had your second year, 2025. How have the last two years been? You've obviously been doing events for ages, but this is a somewhat new event, even though it was previously existed in different format. But has it been more or less or about the same work that you anticipated taking on the Great Ocean Trail Ultra? Yeah.
00:56:35
Speaker
Look, probably, i mean, you know, having done hut to hut every year for 10 years, you know, nothing compares to the organisational melee of that. So, yeah, it was pretty much what I expected. You know, it's hard work. As I said, ah you know, we were up at 3.30 in the morning to go time at 5 and then didn't get to bed till 3.30 with a, you know,
00:56:54
Speaker
the last runner over the line at about 1am. So it's a long day, but um that said, unlike Hut to Hut, it's, you know, we start setting up on, we get down to Apollo Bay on a Wednesday. So it's not quite as intensive as something as big as Hut to Hut, given the logistics are a little bit different with a lot more access.
00:57:09
Speaker
Yeah, no, look, was really good. And Andy Hewitt, the originator of what was GAL 100, was with us. So he kindly helped out on Thursday with course marking. So a bit of a tradition. i always like being out there with Andy. You know, he's like a legend of ultra-trail running in Australia. So to be spending time with him out there, just the two of us, know, marking trails is awesome.
00:57:27
Speaker
And then he went and ran it on the on the Saturday. So he went and the 100K, the legend he is. So yeah, look, it was good, about same amount of work as I thought, in hard yards, but always good to see. We had a lot of firsts again. I talk a lot about that in TDT, Tour de Trails Events, where there's a lot of firsts. So we had a lot of first marathoners because we have the 45K.
00:57:44
Speaker
We had a lot of 100K firsts. And that's, again, that's something that I always love, you know, when people choose one of our events to go. I guess, initiate their journey into trail and ultra running. I take that as a huge compliment and and I'm very, very proud of that.
00:57:59
Speaker
And then obviously there's, you know, experienced runners out there doing amazing things as well. But yeah, that was a good weekend. in That's awesome. And what things do you like to do to kind of make it a more accessible, you know, course and event for those people who are first timers? Because I feel like the trail event and ultra events can be very clicky, but I think, you know, the grassroots events feel, and we found it at Pilligo, definitely brings people. But At the same time, it's a conscious effort to make an event more accessible and more diverse. So what are a few things that you like to do that, I guess, help attract those first-timers?
00:58:34
Speaker
It's a good question because there's, I mean, any event is dictated by the landscape through which it runs, right? So, you know, what we've got down there, what you've got up at Pillow Girl, you know, it's a little bit further away, so you've got those barriers.
00:58:45
Speaker
You know, for me, it's just about people, you know. Obviously, it's about landscape and adventure and and having experience, but it's about people. So, The main thing I think we do, it sounds little bit silly, but is just communicate in a bloody human way, right? Like be really human. So if we're responding to someone who wants a refund or we're responding to you know a query about what shoes should I wear, whatever it might be, is is just just being as human as we can about it. and you know we you know, we have day jobs.
00:59:09
Speaker
We're not a big organisation. And I think also we only ever want to be an event that provides a very human experience. For us, it's it's literally about that. It's not about making money. It's not about being the biggest and the best and the glitziest. And it's an interesting, you know, time of it at the moment, obviously.
00:59:25
Speaker
Literally, I think it was yesterday, you know, Single Track who runs Grampians Peak and, you know, they've taken over a whole bunch of, they'll now have about 15 events or something in Victoria. And, you know, they've got big budgets and big, you know,
00:59:36
Speaker
decent sized staff and all that sort of stuff. So a very different thing. And so that question about what are we in that mix, because we're just not as big as them. And I kind of feel it it is about just that welcoming nature and grassroots and small. And we had a few comments down at GoTo, you know, a few people came up and said, look, great event, blah, blah, blah. But it was just nice to feel like I was actually part of it. I wasn't just a number.
00:59:56
Speaker
And so I think it's the experience you roll out on the ground, whether it be that a hug from the the race director or I mean, obviously volunteers generally are good at no matter who's operating the event because volunteers are volunteers, awesome. Yeah, you know, in terms of, I guess, technical things, obviously, when we get approached by, say, you know, a vision impaired runner or, you know, get that kind of thing, then we do whatever we can to make it possible. Again, you're going to always be limited um by the landscape, you know, to get a you know, ah a wheel enabled, you know competitor along 100K is going to be fairly, fairly hard and fairly possible. but we We try where we can to be inclusive.
01:00:30
Speaker
And that's more about for us, whoever approaches and say, hey, can we we look at their circumstances? Because it's always going to be very unique. I think it's very hard to just put a blanket. Here's our accessibility and and inclusion policy. That's one thing. But then realistically, everyone's different, right? Like, know, if they're sensory sensitive, for instance, you know, well, that's that's one thing.
01:00:51
Speaker
You know, you've got to adapt to the things as they come along. And I think that's nearly kind of for us being such small events. That's that's sort of where it's at. Yeah, it gets kind of tricky, doesn't it Because you want to, I guess, have those policies in place to show that you are thinking about it and consider it. But then people might read those and feel excluded by the policies when really the overarching principle is just pick up the phone or send us an email and we'll do what we can. But yeah, it can kind of, by trying to be more inclusive, you can then make people feel like they are excluded, which, and that's, yeah, where that kind of one-to-one interactions come in. and
01:01:26
Speaker
And I know some people who have been trying to get, you know, defer UTK things and just getting nothing in return. You know, you're like just screaming into the abyss asking for a refund and, you know.
01:01:39
Speaker
And I think that's part of it. you know you You know, some people like that. Some people like that, the big flashy Ironman-esque event, um you know, and they're just different flavours, I guess. and And some people like all flavours. You know, they'll come to a Tour de Trails event and go, that was great, nice, you know, very homey, got a hug from the RD, and then they'll go to a single track or a UTA and it's,
01:01:59
Speaker
It's flashier and it's brighter and it's bigger and it's bolder and that's okay as well. You know, that'ss that's a different flavour. So, yeah know chocolate you chocolate, vanilla, strawberry, whatever. um But, you know, for for me it's still very much about that. I didn't, you know, I think I said before, I started Tour de Trails very much actually for the tour side of things, you know, because of a small 8 to 12 people I can create a relationship with them. That's where my personality is at. I like to be one-on-one. I find it hard dealing with 600, 700, 800 people or whatever it is.
01:02:25
Speaker
But when they do approach for, say, the event side of things, you know, we had a go-to young guy and he just came to me and said, oh, look, you know, you've got all these mandatory items. I'm in uni. I've got no money. I want to get into trail running, but I'm not in it yet.
01:02:38
Speaker
Can you just suggest some, like, cheap versions of things that will meet the mandatories? Yeah. So, you you know, again, i was like, all right, here's a chance. Right, here you go. You know what, have a have a free entry. I'll get you in. I got him some Runley, you know, packs so that he had a ah good backpack. I sent him one of my old, you know, wet weather gear. So he had it all.
01:02:55
Speaker
And I just made it as easy as possible. Now, it's sort of singling someone out. And if I get 100 students coming at me saying, great, can I have that package? Then it's impossible. But I've always been one if there's that opportunity one-on-one to make a real difference.
01:03:08
Speaker
You know, yeah i mean, that that and he came along with his father and he had a, you know, well, he had a hard experience because he had to run a long way. But, you know, he had a good experience leading into that hard experience as much as he possibly could. And then he becomes an advocate for the sport. He becomes an advocate for the recreation, for the lifestyle that he's trial running. and And I think that's where I want to make a difference, you know, more so than...
Industry Dynamics and Collaboration Challenges
01:03:30
Speaker
make a bazillion dollars and intuitive trails i think in some ways i've built it and i'm very lucky is that because we're not there to be our sole business our sole income or whatever we can have smaller events and as long as they break even and yeah they've got to pay us some something for our time because we're still taking away from our day jobs but it doesn't need to be you know like we're relaunching gold rush again hopefully uh for next year that you know needs to be four or five hundred people Now, a single track or UTA will need 1,000 people at that event to make it viable for them. For me, and yeah it's like 400 people and good. And then it it remains that intimate kind of experience.
01:04:03
Speaker
Yeah, and to that point, I've been thinking a lot coming into the summer months, all the alpine events are starting to kick off. We had, um what, the Peaks Challenge this weekend. And I feel like with Hut to Hut and other alpine events, it's becoming a very congested summer period in which it's viable to have these events in the Victorian high country.
01:04:22
Speaker
How do you, I guess, as a race director and a small race director, and I guess people are changing their for dates and it's becoming even more competitive period, Do you think that as an industry or as a collective, like the trail events are working together to try and work out a long-term solution or is it happening in quite siloed ways and it's becoming kind of fend for yourself thing in terms of trying to create a and ah host an event in our climate in the Alpine over summer?
01:04:51
Speaker
I'll be brutally honest here. It's it's the big lines, eat the little lines. Like, You know, the bigger, you know, names, they don't consult. They don't. they There is no idea of industry for them, I think, especially because a few of these larger ones, you know, Ironman, know, Singletrack to a degree, although there's trail runners definitely involved at the top of Singletrack and a few others, you know, it's a business and that's fine and that's okay, right? You know, you're allowed to have a business and if you're going to be selling something, you'd rather be selling trail running than cigarettes, you know? So, you know, good luck to them and Godspeed. But by the same token, that sense, you know, I have been around long enough where it was, know,
01:05:25
Speaker
most race directors still consulting with each other you know how are we going to push this around how can we do this that doesn't happen anymore especially with the the bigger players they just do what they want when they want how they want and you know it it is hard you know I look at what's just happened with single track and a lot of their events they're taking over from Paul Ashton who was again a industry legend you know long long time ultra trail runner and race director and he's decided to it's time for him to go and enjoy retirement or or part retirement or whatever he's doing so single track has gone thanks very much and and that's great but a lot of those events were small grassroots events really really good but now they'll become you know they'll they'll they'll move into that sort of flash your zone and it's like well
01:06:08
Speaker
they're very close to, again, my events. So I sit there and go, well, I'm stuffed because I haven't got the marketing budget that they have and they'll turn these small events that we kind of coexisted with into to bigger things and how's that going to play with the events that I have, you know, like Warbird and Trailfest. But by the same token, that's, you know,
01:06:27
Speaker
On one hand, it's sort of like, well, I'd prefer a community because that's what I was introduced to in trial running. And that's that's the community that I plugged into where it was very collegiate. and But it has just got so big now that that doesn't happen and nor probably can it to be a degree because you're always going to clash with someone. you know If I want to put on a new event, I'll be in the same position, right? I'll be like, well,
01:06:49
Speaker
I'm going to have to annoy someone because I've got an idea, I want to put it on, but there's nowhere to go. And as you say, squashing into into the shoulder and summer months, you know, it has problems. You mentioned climate change earlier and, you know, we've got all those issues. The risk factors are going up.
01:07:06
Speaker
And so therefore, I actually think it's beholden upon us all to be actually trying to re-engage and and and work with each other. And I had a great chat with um ah Daniel Broadbridge Ultra. So obviously they cover trail running now as well as ultra running.
01:07:19
Speaker
And that was one of the discussions we had at GoTo. It was like, well, Because he asked the same question. i was like, well, yeah, it's nowhere way near what it used to be and people just do what they want now. But he was saying, well, how can we re-establish that? And maybe Ultra is the mechanism that we can maybe funnel that through to if they can convince all the different types of race directors to actually jump on board and they can act as a coordinating body, which is...
01:07:40
Speaker
ah of their remit, rather than the race directors just off their own bat, you know, ringing up each other and saying, you know, I'd met ring up Matty Veenstra or Matty Veenstra would ring up me from GSER or, you know, even singletrack, you know, Nigel um and Joe, you know, has has rung me up before in the past to do with their events, say, hey, you know, go to rollercoaster, how will you work?
01:08:01
Speaker
Maybe now so big that it needs that central coordinating body and that's where they could find a real role. But it needs to happen and probably more so from an industry. The industry is that big now that the calendar is so full that we do need to be thinking about more industry, you know, level things. So be that medical supply, you know, medical supply is a real issue because we've, you know, there's some people are using it up here, some people are using it here, some people are getting their mates to the first date.
01:08:27
Speaker
So how does that operate? And then that's fine, but when it blows back, it's going to blow back on us all. Yeah, it's big enough that it's congested, but it's also small enough that it can be knocked over by something that would have a widespread impact across the field.
01:08:41
Speaker
Yeah, well, we saw that with the Boy Deserts race up in the Kimberley years ago, and that had decent blowback. I think trail running and ultra running at that point was not as big as it is now, so it's sort of there was a bit of blowback for a while. Insurance premiums went up.
01:08:55
Speaker
West Australia didn't want to know about trail running races in remote places for a long time because there was a lot of blowback, but it was enough to sort of, you know, i pass through in time. Whereas now I think something goes wrong at UTA or something like that, you know, we're all, we're all going to have a bit of a focus on us. And so think that's where we need to be working together to go, Hey,
01:09:14
Speaker
how How can we play together? And, you know, as you know, we yeah we share kit, um you know, and and so there's definitely still race directors that are saying, yeah, here, have my tags, use my tags or whatever it might be for a weekend. And I still like that side of it where there's there's a certain, ah you know, number of race directors who are still talking to each other regularly and and working in together.
01:09:31
Speaker
And it's also like that cost and resource saving because it seems incredibly impractical to be all working in silos, especially when things like insurance and medical costs are often the highest, you know, kind of things that you need to consider for an event and how can there be efficiencies across the board?
01:09:48
Speaker
How do you think, I guess, to that climate change point more specifically, is the industry in Australia, is it adapting? And if so, how do you see that playing out? Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, is it adapting? um Probably not is the answer.
01:10:04
Speaker
um I think we're still in a phase of where just putting on our events and and we're more aware of it and we're maybe being more attuned to the land managers themselves and making us more attuned to a degree. So, yeah.
01:10:17
Speaker
The Parks Victoria, the Deegas and stuff are obviously on a much higher alert, especially in those summer months. Might be cooler up in the Alpine, but also it's obviously more fire prone. And you're more remote. So those events like Hut to Hut, like yeah Alpine Challenge, like those ones, you know, you've got people in the middle and nowhere. And i think overall we've been really, really lucky that we haven't had a Kimberley happen to us, um especially in Victoria, yet.
01:10:41
Speaker
And, you know, the hope would be that we all pick up our britches before it happens to prevent it from happening. you know, we are talking about lives and we are talking about, and, you know, you might not, it might not be a loss of life, but it might be a severe impact of life, you know, if someone gets decently injured out there or whatever. So again, that's somewhere where Autra might, you know, help all the race directors come together, have a conference with us all and bring us all in and go over all these issues that you're going over now and try and figure out what we can collectively do. And I and i think that needs to happen because at the moment, know,
01:11:11
Speaker
Anyone can go and put on a trail run event. You can get your own websites up and we've spoken about this before. You can do it and that's great. That empowerment is awesome. You can bring an idea to life, but especially with the bigger, longer ones that that we need to be thinking, how can we be helping each other so we all lift, you know, rising tides, lifting all boats sort of thing, rather than us all just going out, putting on our events,
01:11:33
Speaker
trying to do our thing in our own little silos I think that is okay at the moment it's not okay but it's okay it's trundling along but eventually something's something's going to trigger and and I think it'd be nice to be proactive on that front yeah it's unfortunate isn't it that it's not until something goes wrong that often these conversations are had or these you know collaborative approaches are taken as opposed to it's all clear skies for now and then all of a sudden you're kind of doing it reactively instead of proactively Yeah, and um you know we we've had lots of talks about Hut to Hut and where it is. you know February in the mountains, it's hot. It can be dry depending on what happens. you know we We keep a much closer eye and on things and we are obviously in tune with the land managers much more.
01:12:12
Speaker
I would say the major impact, I can only talk about us rather than other events, but we'll make calls a lot earlier now. And even something like Warburton a few years back, you know, we got it through as such on a total fire ban because out of Warburton it wasn't bad. But, you know, even off the back of that, now we were safer there than the total fire ban sort of had predicted.
01:12:30
Speaker
it was it was more over the west of Melbourne and Melbourne, but because it's the same area. But even that, like, it was the best solution in the context that was happening. we were actually keeping people safer because it meant that we were monitoring people in the bush rather than letting people who come up to Warburton anyway and run around without any event structure, right? Yeah.
01:12:46
Speaker
But now in reflection of that, we would just call it off earlier. We would just on the Monday or the Tuesday and suck up if it got to the Saturday and actually the weather was fine and you could have run it.
01:12:57
Speaker
Well, yeah, but again, we're we're more conservative in that call. And how do you feel like that those decisions, you know, whether it be, for example, hut to hut doing loops or, you know, other other events like that, how do you feel it's being, that news is being taken by the participants and the runners? Do you feel like, obviously, there's always a sense of disappointment, but Do you feel like ultimately there is a sense of respect and understanding there from participants?
01:13:23
Speaker
Or do you feel like that's got a long way to go as well? Yeah, 50-50. I mean, look, I probably suspect that out there everyone's fine with it. I mean, everyone, you know, the way the industry works is you pay your your dough and and you get it back until a certain point. And then it's like, you know what, all our costs are done and the industry literally can't run.
01:13:41
Speaker
unless we have that final refund date, right? Because we've blown so much money, we'd all we'd all go bust. And you'd be you surprised that, well, you wouldn't be, but yeah how many refund requests and last minutes and here's my doctor's certificates and all that sort of stuff.
01:13:54
Speaker
um So we offer third party. and We don't do it. It's just a third party thing, insurance. So we're saying, hey, look, it's all there. we get That's become a a lot better for us. We've made sure people know it. But even then, it's like plastered everywhere and they still come back and,
01:14:06
Speaker
And then they still do. Sometimes they get a little bit gnarky. But I think in general, within the trail running community of any degree of time, you sort of get to understand that's part of the culture of it. We respect the bush. We respect how dangerous it can be. And hopefully we respect the operators who are trying to make it safer for you by putting on an event.
01:14:23
Speaker
But with that, there's a bit of give and take. And the take is that as the competitor, you take on board that after a certain time, you don't get your dough back. And if they have to make a call that it's off three days before, you've still done your dough and you don't get the experience and it's all a bit crap. But given way things are, it's better to have all those people alive and angry than dead and upset.
01:14:44
Speaker
And the flip side of that, I guess people are signing up for events a lot later because they're waiting to, rather than the gamble with injury or weather or whatever, they're just training in their own time and then the week of or the week before signing up for an event. And have you seen that trend within your events and how, I guess, is it a, is it, does it keep you up at night?
01:15:04
Speaker
ah A little bit. I mean, again, like i said before, we're maybe in a slightly different position that we don't want to be the biggest. We'd love to be the best, but we don't necessarily need to be the biggest That's not, I guess, our model in some ways.
01:15:17
Speaker
You know, so Great Astral Ultra, you know, is prime instance. We've had to grow it from what Andy had it at sort of 100. But we only need it, we want to get it to like 400, 450, and then that's it, done. You know, and that's enough to make it worthwhile, to to be able to deliver a really good event, to have a really good experience. But that's it. We don't want 1,000. We don't want 2,000. We don't want to be UTA or those bigger events.
01:15:37
Speaker
So for us, the ideal scenario is sellouts. Like you just sell it out so you know your logistics and then you usually, you know, you'll oversell by 10% or whatever because you know that there's going to be the pullback. Whereas other models, maybe those bigger models just need the income, right? So they'll just, and that's probably the danger. yeah i think the commercialisation of the industry sets up an environment where some of the ones that do want to be the biggest, right?
01:16:03
Speaker
Do they start cutting corners? Do they start? Now, that's not to say they do. Maybe their budgets, they get enough people and and they're big enough to do the right thing and and keep it rigid edge. But um that's just potentially a future danger for new players coming into the market who want to be the biggest and the best. Again, and as something like an ultra might help with not policing it, but encouraging it and and setting an industry standard that, hey, we all agree to this industry standard because it keeps us all so all safer, whether it be part-time businesses, club runs, or big businesses, we all want to be safe and we all want to keep people safe. You know, again, for me, it's about people.
01:16:38
Speaker
And that's probably like any commercialisation or big business in any industry is once something's focus is on making the dollar and the people come second, then there's there's trouble. and And that's one thing when you're selling a donut, but when you're selling, putting people in the bush, you and there's real world serious consequences, then I personally, um I think that's a real issue, you know.
01:17:01
Speaker
And again, I caveat that. I'm not saying necessarily that anybody's necessarily doing that, but it is a danger that that can happen when the focus is on the dollar, not on the on the people. Definitely. Just keeping an eye on time, I want to I guess, pivot a little bit because you're a busy guy. You've got your consulting work, family, your fiance that lives on the other side of the country.
01:17:20
Speaker
running a small business, um but yet you still find the time to be an activist and advocate for the issues you care about.
Balancing Activism and Professional Life
01:17:26
Speaker
What advice or practical tips or, I guess, insights do you have as to how you manage to prioritise that when a lot of people might want to do the same but say that they lack the time to, you know, to to fight for the things that matter to them?
01:17:41
Speaker
Yeah, well, first of all, I'd say everyone's got the time to scroll and repost, right? That's the simplest thing. um And I've had arguments with people, oh what does that matter if you're reposting and you're you're sending it out to your own bubble whatever, but you're doing something and and there's enough evidence out there that says even just sharing, you know, and again, yeah obviously one of my things is Palestine.
01:18:00
Speaker
You get the Palestinians saying and keep sharing. but yeah If it matters to them, it matters to me sort of thing. Or if it matters to the environmental movement, if things are shared, then it matters to me. So everybody can do that, everybody. you know and And if they change one mind or open eyes of one person in there in their group, then then that's a difference, right?
01:18:17
Speaker
So I think everybody can. I still feel like a failed activist. you know Part of my, I guess, future aims is to become maybe more actively and proactively involved on an actionable level. So you know I've been to a few protests and all that sort of stuff.
01:18:30
Speaker
But as you say, I'm fitting it in between trying to stay afloat personally and all that sort of stuff. But, you know, you mentioned Mish. Mish and I had a chat the other night, you know, and we talking about dreams and what are your big life dreams. And one of the ones for me was to be more involved. And you look to people like yourself who you're not talking the talk, you're walking the walk. And, you know, people like that, the David Pococks of the world and Senator Wish Wilson and people like that, unfortunately, you know, he's stepping aside. But, you know, people like that, and, okay, they're in politics, so that's that's what they've decided to do. But there's also a lot of other people out there who are,
01:19:02
Speaker
educating, you know making conscious efforts to educate. And again, I'm a big advocator of that is like, if you can't be on the front line, you can't say something at your workplace, because you're going to lose your job, and you just that's not a place you're in.
01:19:13
Speaker
There's other ways that you can do that. might be just reading, it might be like picking up a book and educating yourself about a particular aspect, be it climate science, but, you know, the politics behind historical, you know, wars, whatever it might be.
01:19:26
Speaker
So I think everyone can easily and the I don't have enough time and I'm a classic for I don't have enough time excuse. Like I'm always, ah I don't have enough time for this. But realistically, you might not have enough time to get into the the nearest protest or, you know, go up a tree and sit up on top of a tree, but you do have enough time to share someone else doing it.
01:19:42
Speaker
And I think so it's it's from little things, big things grow. And for me, I have visions of wanting to do more actively and I'll get there, but, im you know, just the little things will always make a big difference, I think.
01:19:53
Speaker
And since, I guess, using your you know social media platform, which we all, a lot of us have, since you've chosen to yeah use that as your kind of activist platform, has it brought up some good conversations and in terms of using your sphere of influence within the people that you know you know, whether it be through trail running or work or family or just your local neighbourhood, in terms of helping them ah maybe see a different perspective or understand why you care so much about the people of Palestine?
01:20:23
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, it's not you've got a million people saying, oh, you know, yeah, I now see your point of view, Chris. But um definitely I get i get a a lot of messages from people saying, look, i you know, I see your stuff just to let you know I'm seeing it and I agree with it. I'm not in a position where I don't feel...
01:20:39
Speaker
capable of throwing that out there myself, but um I'm thinking about it. so the fact they're thinking about it, great. um You know, some discussions, the ones I really like are the ones that come to you and say, look, I don't understand. Like you're posting this stuff, but I don't understand it. I don't read much about it.
01:20:55
Speaker
So can you help me? and And so I can take them through the, the idiot's guide to, and I'm, you know, a bit of an idiot too, but to my level of understanding. And then I've got other people that I go to for education. um You know there's is this great influencer over in England and she's, ah you know, historical writer, professor or whatever and she she all she does is put out here's some books to read so you can understand neo-popularism or whatever it might be um and i go you know you scratch your head that's a fancy word but then she just gives you these tools to then go and educate yourself and her whole thing is you know it's an emergency and you you you can't have a democracy without education or without knowledge right and it's like so true like
01:21:34
Speaker
Knowledge is the beginning. People aren't going to just jump out there on the front line. So if they don't understand about climate change, they don't understand what's happening with the eradication of species or whatever it might be, they're not going to care. It's kind of like we say about trail running, right? Like one of the great things about trail running is get them into the bush so they they can feel, touch, smell, love, create a relationship with the bush.
01:21:52
Speaker
And therefore, when they come out of the bush, they might actually be more inclined to read up about. climate science or you know environmental issues or the politics of what's going on and rather than not. Whereas if they haven't gone in the bush, then they might not be more willing to connect with that other information. So that education piece, I think, is is really, really important. And as you said, that i guess the hard thing is everybody who sort of sees my post probably thinks They're in that bubble anyway. They're already going to be, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's how do you reach the others or the people in the middle? Because it's the people in the middle who kind of at the moment don't care or choose to not engage. And I think that's for me the biggest one is the people who say, oh, I'm not really into the news. I'm not into the issues. I don't understand. it And it's like, okay, you're a target because you're not sitting there going, yay, MAGA, yay, Donald Trump. You're sitting there going, I don't understand. Right, let's help you understand. In what way can we help you understand?
01:22:45
Speaker
what is that? Is that a podcast? Is that a book? Is that a whatever it might be to help you go? ah And so, yeah, I've got my own people that I go to and listen to and try and educate myself further so that I can then sort of pass that on.
01:22:57
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a real need for curiosity, isn't there? And it's rather than feeling overwhelmed or stupid or not intelligent enough to understand it. It's like, well, the system itself is trying to be confusing to alienate people, whereas you just need a ah basic curiosity to realise that that's what's happening and even just a little bit of information can go a long way.
01:23:19
Speaker
And then, yeah, you start to care. And and like what we say at For Wild Places, you protect what do you love and, you know, and if you love the bush and love getting out onto the trails, well, then you're much more likely to you know to spend some time trying to protect it.
01:23:32
Speaker
Yeah, well, it's that it's that classic meme, dash cartoon, lunic, whatever it is, um that talks about, you know it's the little caption where it's, ah you know what's the worst case scenario if we do all the right things we need to do for climate change? Well, we'll have clean water, clean air, you know we'll be more empathetic. This is the worst case scenario if we actually you know do what we need to do.
01:23:51
Speaker
The worst case scenario if we don't, is we'll die. So, you know, even the people who are like so anti, I don't believe in climate change. Well, if you just do the things that the believers think you need to do anyway, you still win, you know, like everyone still wins, whereas whereas no one wins if we just don't do anything. There's no downside to trying to make a better planet, right? There's zero downside. And that's what I find confusing is where people are trying to say, ah, you know, and just not failing to see the downsides of it and trying to make up a downside to doing something about it where there is no downside, you know, cleaner water, fresher air. Or, you know, the downside is the richer get richer and the rest of us just, you know, continue to, i don't know, have to live in the reality and it's flawed future in terms of hotter, colder, windier, wetter, drier, et cetera.
01:24:41
Speaker
The positive of that, and i think, you know, we went for a swim once we were talking about this in terms of that pendulum. I feel like, again, you know history shows us that the pendulum just has to swing to the Trump, the MAGA, you know, and even the the physical reality of weather until people go, oh, shit.
01:24:56
Speaker
And unfortunately, people don't change their behavior or realize sooner enough in the middle when when it's just looking like it's going bad, let's change everything so it doesn't. They need it to actually go bad. And so it's part of me that's a bit like, well, okay, here we are there. And you sort of see people starting to open their eyes to the the systems and, yeah, the inequality and all that sort of stuff and how it's all linked.
01:25:17
Speaker
ah You know, the intersectionality of of everything, of AI, climate change. I mean, you know, AI is interlinked climate change because it needs all the water and the power and that affects X, Y and Z and that affects inequality. And and it's all linked when you once you sort of pull back and you go, well, actually all it is completely intertwined, which makes sense given that you and I would probably agree that, you know, everything on the planet is interlinked. So...
01:25:40
Speaker
From a biological, ecological perspective, it's all interlinked. So why wouldn't the things that we then create like AI still link back in some way, shape or form? Everything has to remain linked. so Well, that's a nice little lighthearted conversation for a Monday morning, Chris.
Conclusion and Future Collaborations
01:25:54
Speaker
So I appreciate you taking the time and nice to check in. And I hope that um next time I'm down on the surf coast, we can go for another swim and contemplate the perils of the world.
01:26:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think I was railing last time, wasn't I? I better keep swimming. Yeah, there's always something to worry about. And um thanks so much for having the team down at Got You. It sounded like it was fantastic weekend. and Just on that, thank you for Wild Places, Ayumi and the team, for being there. Like Parker's Access was you a great aid station. We appreciate you guys being there and hopefully we can lure you back next year and um and and keep that advocacy going for you guys to get membership, et cetera.
01:26:30
Speaker
Definitely. No, I appreciate it. Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Chris, and we'll talk to you soon. And that's the finish line of our 12th trail chat. Thank you, Chris, for taking the time and for your willingness to share in insights and reflections on decades embedded in the trail and ultra world.
01:26:45
Speaker
If you'd like to hear more from Chris, you can follow him on social media at One Life Wild or get involved in a Tour de Trails event at Tour de Trails. If you've liked what you've heard and would like to stay in touch with The Wild Places, then follow us online at For Wild Places, where you can subscribe to our newsletter or become a member.
01:27:03
Speaker
And if you like what you're hearing, then we'd love for you to leave us a review on whatever platform you're listening to this on. We're a new small podcast so your kind words as listeners will help others discover these conversations.
01:27:15
Speaker
Thank you to Chris for taking the time, to Lara Hamilton for out there music and to Nico for editing this episode. And a huge thank you to you for joining us. As always, we are absolutely stoked to have you here.
01:27:26
Speaker
Until next time, happy trails. And as always, thank you for taking the time for Wild Places.