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1. Sustainability, product design and selling shoes with Sam Burke
46 Plays5 months ago
Sam Burke, co-founder of Tarkine joins Will and Hilary for our first Trail Chat. We first caught up with Sam in June 2022 as Tarkine's founding crowdfunding campaign was drawing to a close.
We caught up with Sam two years and thousands of pairs of Tarkine's later and got a first-hand account of what it's like to take on global shoe brands.
Tarkine is a Perth-based running shoe company that strives to combine modern running technology with sustainable, well-made footwear. During this chat, we learn about the challenges of making eco-friendly products and what it's like to see people wearing a product you laboured over in the wild.
Find out more about Tarkine here.
To hear more from For Wild Places, subscribe to our newsletter or become a member.
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Transcript
Introduction to For Wild Places Podcast
00:00:22
Speaker
to the For Wild Places podcast, a podcast that shares the stories of inspiring people and their adventures in running, adventure and advocacy. I'm your host Hilary.
Introduction to Sam Burke and Tarkine Running
00:00:32
Speaker
Today we are excited to bring you our first trail chat with Sam Burke from Tarkine Running. Every month we catch up with athletes, leaders and advocates to talk about past or future adventures, their favourite wild places and the connection between adventure and activism.
00:00:47
Speaker
This conversation was recorded in May 2022 when Tarkon Running was fresh on the Australian running apparel scene. Before we jump into the chat, I'd like to acknowledge the First Nations people who have been custodians of land, waters and culture for tens of thousands of years.
00:01:02
Speaker
We understand the wild places we love to explore on this continent have been cared for by First Nations people for millennia. We seek to learn from the world's oldest living culture so we too can care for country as the Indigenous people have done since time immemorial. This podcast was recorded and edited on Watarong country in so-called Australia where sovereignty was never ceded. This always was and will be Aboriginal land.
Early Days of Tarkine Running
00:01:27
Speaker
We'll caught up with Sam in October 2022 when the Kickstarter campaign was still underway. During this conversation we have a couple of questions from the Zoom audience and occasionally the audio isn't too crash hot. So please persevere with us. It wasn't our intention to release these conversations in an audio format and we've done what we can to clean them up for your listening pleasure. Without any further ado let's rewind back two years and join Chris and Sam and Co in conversation.
00:02:00
Speaker
All right, brilliant. Well, welcome, everyone. to For Wild Places trail chat. So my name's Will, I'm based in Port Kembla, which is on Darawil land. And the first thing I wanna do is acknowledge the traditional owners of this land and pay respects to elders past, present and future. As mentioned, this is our first ever trail chat, which is a bit exciting. We're hoping to make these things a regular thing going forward. For Wild Places is a group of activist runners we aim to protect and celebrate the wild places we live in.
Founding Journey and Motivation of Tarkine
00:02:31
Speaker
So pumped to have Sam here.
00:02:33
Speaker
Among many impressive things, Sam is the co-founder of Tarkine, the world's most eco-friendly shoe. Hopefully this doesn't put you on the spot, Sam, but the first thing we just wanted to ask you say is a massive welcome to you. Thanks for coming. And if you could just introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.
00:02:50
Speaker
Oh, thank you. thanks Thanks for having me. First of all, big fan of what you guys are doing and, yeah, anything you guys stand for. And, yeah, so I, interested as you said, founded Tuck Iron in last year with a good friend of mine, Ross Johnson, who I grew up with and went through school with and have been running with for a long time. and um and we've been working on the on the brand since 2017 and it took a lot of time to develop to figure out actually how to do it and yeah I mean I guess my background is that I was a middle distance runner growing up and um and yeah to my teenage years and in my 20s I was you know and
00:03:28
Speaker
I was okay. I didn't ever quite made it to the top level, which sucks, but that's the reality of it. And then after that, I've always just been obsessed with running and and I still run today. I trained veterinarian. I've been a vet for 16 years um and I have pretty extensive experience in wildlife medicine, um as well as just plain old dog and cat medicine.
00:03:48
Speaker
And I just i guess ah after 15 years of of sogging away as a veterinarian, I just thought there had to be something more out there for me than then there's a lot of customer service involved with being a vet. And they just kind of wore me down a little bit, to be honest. And I thought I just want to have a crack at something really fun and really cool. And and maybe that potentially if I can but somehow make a work could be maybe bigger than just one person and and it could be maybe something that makes a big difference um you know locally at an environmental level. And so I've always been a massive greenie and I've always been involved to become a family of greenies and a brother that used to work with
00:04:30
Speaker
Bob Brown many, many decades ago. And and I've kind of grown up with that around me. And um I follow the Bob Brown Foundation very closely and I always donate to them every year. And I just thought, hey, like I went to the kind of ultra in 2020, like right when COVID was hitting and chaos was surfing the world. And I ran that race as as kind of the world was just going crazy. We didn't really know what was happening because we were just tucked away in this beautiful part of the world and um and it was at that moment I decided you know like if I'm going to do this let's just name it after this magnificent place and and try and stand for something more than just being a brand just for the sake of being a brand you know a brand we want to be a brand that is out there trying to raise money for vital organizations and diverting a large chunk of our revenue towards that. That's a brief intro. I don't want to bore anyone, you know? Nah, man, it's not boring, not boring. And actually, um the next question we had, you kind of touched on it a little bit, but I mean, it's pretty epic to start a whole new company. As runners would know, there's there's heaps of good quality brands of shoes out there. why Why create a whole new company?
Environmental Commitment and Challenges
00:05:40
Speaker
It's a conflict that I and i face internally, I guess, you know, do it, does the world actually need it, you know, blah, blah, blah, like I could
00:05:47
Speaker
yeah You could debate that about anything in life because there's so many, every any product, you name it, unless you're an absolute star that comes out with something that no one's ever invented. I mean, most things are already invented. And if you know if you've got young people that have an entrepreneurial streak to them,
00:06:06
Speaker
you know You can't just say, hey, everything's already been done. You just need to go sit down in the box and do nothing with your life. you know And so um you know I've thought about that a lot. There definitely are no true companies that are really fighting hard for the environment and to so and to try and save wild places. And um and I just thought, you know there's definitely to be honest, there's an entrepreneurial side to me that wanted to do this. pretty much for the sake of doing it. you know I'm not going to lie about that. It's just something I wanted to do it. you know But at the same time, I want to create a brand that fights and we're transparent. We have the backing of the Bob Brown Foundation. I send these guys email with screenshots of revenue and then and then transfer money in. it's like There's nothing that
00:06:54
Speaker
No, and anyone can ask me anything and they can say anything. You know, and I just want to that's what I'm about. I want to create a brand that, um you know, is out there actually trying to make a difference. And the hope is that then these other brands that that claim that they love wild theme places are going to then say, hey, you know, Tuck Island is a tiny startup with not that that isn't very big yet. And they're putting two percent of everything behind.
00:07:24
Speaker
you know these these organizations, hey, we need and need to step up and I love that you know because you know imagine if, um I'm not going to say some brand names, but imagine if some of those big brands will put in 2% of revenue you know into into, you know, a wonderful cause just like this. I think it would it would be it would be a wonderful thing. I only came across Tarkon recently, but i I don't see it as just one more shoe. I see it as the only shoe that I've come across that's actually trying to change the culture of of of quite a wasteful industry. um Anyway, sorry, this is some not me answering questions.
00:07:59
Speaker
get you that's fine like It's very easy to make a shoe and just sell it and then just forget all about it but obviously and I'll get to that later but a huge part of what we're doing is is that our shoe just to back up, it's not perfect. like there's not It's very hard to make a shoe that's 100% ego friendly. There's some bad parts of the supply chain okay and that's something that i'm like you I'm not hiding from and it's just something that I'm hopefully going to be able to chip away at but But this it's also, it's not good enough to sell a pair of shoes and then just forget about it. Like every pair of shoes with our customers help because obviously we can't force them to return their shoes, but they should be returning these shoes to us.
00:08:43
Speaker
um and to our recycling partner to be turned into um useful products. okay so and And I think that every brand has a responsibility. They should have that responsibility to so kind of um yeah to create that cycle. Instead of a lot of these shoes, they may be using plastics that take a thousand plus years to break down. And that's not that's not good enough. you know the The shoes need to be recycled. I actually wanted to come back to that in my next question. But before I do that,
00:09:13
Speaker
Sam, I just wanted to ask, it looks to me like you're you're doing things that a lot of people would see as being in contradiction with one another. It's pretty amazing. And one thing is how how do you balance like the um the realities of business with with with activism? How do you actually manage those two things?
00:09:32
Speaker
And look with difficulty, you know, we'll probably have critics and and stuff that say it's impossible. But, you know, I'm a believer that business that as activism is, is a real thing. And that, you know, the Bob, you know, let's just yeah i could talk about a bunch of different organizations. you know, I'm a huge fan of of wild places, obviously, but I know that the happenings of the Bob Brown Foundation a bit more. So let's just talk about them for a second. Like, they they spend a lot of their time raising money, right, because they have massive overheads, you know, they have staff on the ground into kind of they have a permanent camp in place. And then stuff like the Mount Lindsay mine and the Riley Creek mine where
00:10:13
Speaker
they're actually ah you know They're actively at these sites trying to halt destruction of this ancient rainforest. But it's not just that, it's the legal fees that they have. ah okay Massive, massive legal fees just trying to get people off the hook every time they get you know um or you know arrested or whatnot from the Tasmanian police. The legal fees stack up, constantly raising money and raising money and raising money. so It doesn't take the rocket science to realize that these organizations need money. Who has money, right? Successful companies have money, more money than nearly any anyone else in the world. And so why can't big successful companies be be taken charge and say, hey, you know, we've got a great week. I'm not saying that we're printing money yet because we're totally not. but they um you know But maybe if we can stay alive, maybe five, 10 years from now, we can be in a position that that we can just completely change the the the playing field here. Because, Bob, hound imagine what they could do with millions and millions and millions of extra dollars a year. okay And they're sort of people that I trust.
00:11:15
Speaker
to spend that money wisely, you know, and I think that it could be a massive, massive difference. I mean, these I don't know if you guys saw the pretty biased um Four Corners on the other night, but it was just, you know, there's a place that we need to save. You know, I understand, you know, the world does need mining, but this is, you know, there are some places in this world that should should be ah off limits. okay Absolutely. Absolutely. We just had one more question for you, then we'll open up to um if Tim or anyone else wants to ask a question, but um i and I'm going to plug here. How good do these look? I actually got myself a pair and I've been for a few runs. They're flipping beautiful. like the The other thing that
00:11:54
Speaker
it seems like a contradiction but you seem to have nailed it is I didn't think it was going to be possible to to manage quality with being eco-friendly because I've been involved in a few different attempts of making things eco-friendly and it's really bloody hard um because of things like plastics and that kind of thing but um it's sensational and I've I've read a bunch of reviews on your website that people are really stoked with the quality of these shoes so yeah you able to talk a little bit about what's going into this and um and how you've managed that Yeah, so our first shoe is relatively um few parts because obviously the least number of parts you have, the easier it is to pull it off. So there's a one-piece upper because it says you know it's a recycled obviously plastic trashy supper and so if you have a million bits to the upper it's really hard hard to make that work and so pretty much a one-piece that also the laces obviously the cycle to escort a softliner and this is a it's kind of it's a softliner that decomposes so and I'm gonna be super honest like there every step you take like if you start talking about biodegradable components of a shoe this last
00:12:58
Speaker
not as long as the TPU plastic soft line is last. And so there are compromises to be made. okay and like you know And I don't know whether I've got the the mix completely perfect on this soft line. I think maybe it needs to be a tiny bit more durable than it currently is, but but it's just, you know we're just getting started. And as you know, there's ah there's a lot to like to fix up um and to work on and improve on. but Everything you can see here is recycled. Laces, the AR part, everything. Even like There's a bit of lining internally here which we use got certified um organic cotton on the bits that aren't touching the skin and then we have recycled mesh outside that so we we try to like every single bit of it you know we try and because there's a lot to the shoe that no one can see is only getting out and so we're trying to even the bits of the hidden we try and make make sure they're responsible. Now this midsole
00:13:47
Speaker
It's not recycled. And I think some people say, oh, it's 100% recycled. It's like, I'm trying not to you know um you know get the wrong picture across, fake because this midsole is not recycled. This is a high-performance midsole. I have played around with a recycled midsole, and it is just horrific to run it. um I played around with a midsole that was 25% recycled and then one of the 15% recycled and I was just still, I just, they were not that great. And so I figured if it's 10% recycled, is that really even a big deal? And so, yeah um so we just decided, you know, it needs to be a great run through to run in. But the cool thing about um technology these days is that there are some awesome recycling technologies. And we can recycle this midsole into mats, so rubber mats, um yoga mats. And even um what I'm going to be working on mostly is rubber mats that you put inside vet hospitals, you're inside animal cages. And so so anyway, even though the midsole is not recycled, we can recycle it And then the outsole here, so the stuff stuck on is pre-consumer recycled. So the way that, what but that means is for those that don't, you know, across that is that um rubber companies, for example, let's say they need to make an outsole, they'll cut all this rubber up, stick it on, and there'll be all these offcuts. And the offcuts is going to tip, traditionally speaking. and So there's a few companies now that are going around and collecting these offcuts.
00:15:10
Speaker
and then doing good things with them. And so that's what we've been able to to tap into, okay? But it's not recycled, that rubber, it's just literally preventing it going to the tip. That's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. But that also gets recycled too. so But this still has a carbon footprint, right? It's not this magical shoe, that carbon footprint, but we're doing our best with it. And I think a large part of what we're doing, ah of course, is that is the raising money stuff as well.
00:15:34
Speaker
Absolutely. na Thanks, you Sam. um Look, I could probably think of a bunch more questions, but at this point, I might um just open it up. is Is there anyone else who'd like to ask Sam ah a question? I have a quick question, Sam. It's been exciting to see a bunch of ambassadors get on board.
00:15:50
Speaker
And I guess what role do you feel like they play? I know I've been following Matt Gore who's been doing a lot of stuff in your shoes. In terms of I guess raising awareness not only of your product and putting it to the test but then also actually going out and exploring places. Like how does that kind of fit into what Tarkan's trying to achieve? Yeah um the ambassadors for us are vital because What we're really trying to do is align ourselves with like-minded people because as you as you probably know Mac will run 655k I think through Victoria and New South Wales and raise money for the Bob Brown Foundation. I think he raised eight or nine thousand dollars from memory and ah you know he's the perfect sort of guy to to have. He's also an amazing runner. He ran he won the Alpine Challenge the other day as you probably know and so really good trail runner, really good endurance athlete but also understands
00:16:39
Speaker
what we're about. And those ambassadors are key. We don't have huge pockets to chuck these guys money. with So it's not a financial thing. We're obviously just getting them products, getting them in our products and then saying, hey, we're not even getting the signed contracts. Like it's not the sort of guy I am. Like, you know, if you want to be part of it, they want to be a part of Tarkon and they want to help spread the word, create that brand that is is trying to save this place then. then door there's the door open policy. you know I wish I had more time to hunt these guys out and I hope that with time more of them just come knocking and say, hey, I love what you're doing. Can I get behind the band? And like, we're never going to say no, je mean unless they're, you know, But yeah, we're never going to really say no if they're an environmentally minded person. no But they're vital. like We don't have the big marketing budgets that um you know other brands may have. And so what better way for us than to get ambassadors behind us? It's key for us. Yeah. And also another question I have is how do you know when a pair of runners are worn out?
Running Shoe Lifecycle and Recycling Policy
00:17:41
Speaker
Have you yeah all of your like experience? Cause I feel like a lot of people say it's, but per cat, you know, it's like after X amount of guys or, but how do you know when it's, when it's toast? look I really think it depends who you are. Like if you talk to you know if you talk to some old school runners in their sixties and seventies, I'll tell you that they got, you know, 2000 K out of a pair of Dunlop Bollies, right? um And true story, like there's some guys that do that. And and then there's the newer generation that
00:18:11
Speaker
very different Okay. and And I'm not, I'm not saying one way is good, and one way is bad. You know, I'm not very opinionated on that at all, but and it is, it is really depends who you are. Obviously, sometimes you can see the actual wearing out. Okay.
00:18:26
Speaker
But in a shoe like the Goss Hawk, the outsole doesn't really wear out. It's more um maybe $800, $900, $1,000. It depends how heavy you are and what terrain you're running on. The midsole might start getting in flat. Or if you have a pointy end on the back of your heel, like a big spur thing, you might start pushing a hole through the the the fabric. like There's so many ways to know that your shoe is done. But I think if you run enough, you figure you end up figuring out your kind of sweet spot bit.
00:18:52
Speaker
I think also the guys that run a lot, you start getting tiny little niggles in your lower extremities, like your feet might ache a little bit and then you put on a new pair and it all just disappears. So, yeah, I think it's each, it is really each for their own to answer that. I can't answer that question as a, there's no black and white answer to that. And what is like the afterlife of the shoe? If you, you know, if you've had a pair of ticorns and you've worn through them, what do people do with them to kind of make the most of the properties that you've built into it so if they're completely done with it you mean and ready for it to yeah and get park and retire them essentially so the soft line is probably by then is completely trash right it's all just starting to biodegrade by itself if you have a compost bin
00:19:34
Speaker
cut it up into 10 bits, whack it in a compost bin, and it'll just kind to disappear in there. But if you don't, just cut it up into 10 bits and put it in the garbage. and Instead of sitting in the garbage for a thousand years, it'll just um go. And so that's that. but The rest of the shoe, you don't need to do anything. You just ship it. We have an address on our website, which is the company that we work with with recycling, and you ship it to them. and so the way it works at the moment is the customers are paying that shipping to the company and then Tarkine pays for the cost of their recycling and so we pay on a per kilo basis and um and soon we will have videos and photos of some of the end product. The way it works is they is this this company is waiting for a certain number of kilos which is a really high number like 100 kilos or something worth of shoes and then they just recite them all in one batch. So ah with time we'll be able to document that and show everyone on our social media feeds and stuff. And where is that facility? Is it in Australia? yeah It's in it's in Melbourne. we
00:20:31
Speaker
We're using, for those who've been for us to start a different brand, but now we've switched to um Apparel. Actually based on, I had a meeting with Simon Harrison for a while places and a bunch of his colleagues and I was put in touch with a company that was just even recycling better um than the previous company. And so yeah, their name is Apparel. Yeah, I'm familiar with them. They're really good. If you've got old clothes and stuff as well, they, you can basically send it off to them and they go through it and anything that is still wearable, they give to people who need clothes and then yeah, whatever's left, they just recycle it into textiles and carpets and stuff. So yeah, it's amazing. And it's funny, I've seen them, they've been around a while, but now they're becoming more well-known, which is really positive to say. Sammy mentioned a trail shoe coming out of actually,
00:21:25
Speaker
ah these um The ones I've got are pretty comfy off-road actually, but but that's exciting that a ah trail version is coming out. what ah like What are some of the differences in the new shoe? Yeah, so it's, um look, for those on a trail shoes, it's got lugs on the bottom. It's obviously, because our shoe has a lot of grip, but it's great for roads and light trails. but the really technical trails like really really steep inclines and descents. um A lot of people will much prefer big lugs and so it's fair to and it's got a more of an engineered mesh upper with toe protection. A tiny bit higher stack heights too. We're really going for that shoe for people who you know ultra athletes like you know Mack Orr talking about earlier who you know who you can wear on a hundred Mahala.
00:22:08
Speaker
and so yeah that's kind of it's a big step for us that the trail shoe um' really going after the shoe for those really elite 100 100 mile ah athletes can wear on race day. So did you say you're hoping to have these out by the end of this year? I'm hoping to have them out in November. um Have you got a name for the new shoe Sam? Oh we're calling it the trail devil just after you know just the tazzy devils and stuff and Can I ask ah a question? Thanks so much. It's great to hear about the shoe. And keen to hear about the manufacturing process. I understand it's not manufactured in Australia at the moment, and that's probably because it's tough to find the capacity to do that. And I was just wondering,
00:22:47
Speaker
um If you could tell us a bit more about that process and if you've got ambitions long-term to try and yeah get it at home on Australian soil or anything.
Manufacturing and Financial Strategies
00:22:54
Speaker
ah Yeah, totally. So manufacturing process obviously is happening in Asia at the moment and um ah you know I would ah like a lot of manufacturers it would I would love to be able to manufacture it in Australia. it's um I've looked into it extensively and i'll I'll try and give you just a quick recap, but possible. It is not possible at the moment with the way shoes have been made. So even if you look at some of the biggest brands, um the mass production of kind of high mileage trainers of trail shoes, they're still getting made in the traditional process where let's say there's 21 sizes
00:23:24
Speaker
of that shoe. Each size has its own mid-sole mould and out-sole mould and then last. And you have to make those manually. It's a very kind of manual intensive process. There are some shoes now that have been made by a printing technology, so 3D printing technology, and that eventually 100% is going to change again. And we have even been playing around with that already. yeah I'm talking about you know we can make like one shoe, but in terms of mass production using that, it's totally it is coming. If you look at the improvement even from four or five years ago to now in that 3D printing stuff, it's ridiculous. I think to be honest, like bringing in manufacturing of shoes to Australia using the current method or current ways of manufacturing it is most likely impossible because
00:24:08
Speaker
We don't have the institutional knowledge in Australia. We don't have those decades and decades of experience, people who know exactly you know how the tooling works. Without kind of um bringing in a lot of overseas you know workers, it would be very, very hard to do it here. But the technology is the answer to that manufacturing process. And and that's something that there've we've had meetings with local government already, and if we can there are some really nice grants that for Australian companies that we we but we definitely, I think, will be a wonderful candidate for. And so once we can prove that we have a successful business over, say, a two-year period, we've only been up for six months, so another 18 months and now, and then we show that a certain percent of our business is being shipped overseas. So currently, been maybe 4% of shoes are shipped to America. So that number would really need to go up. But once we can prove these things, and there's going to then there's some really, really huge grants around that we will go after hard and if we can get those then we will then put the next step into place. From day one, what we had been telling people this is the goal. And I'm not going to you know go back on it. um It's something that we're just going to plug away and work towards. But it's all about the tech. Yeah, that's super interesting. Thanks. I'm keen as well to know more about, like it seems like your shoes, they're they're in the same price bracket as most other shoes. So how do you manage to achieve that given that you're using like recycled materials, you're putting a lot more thought into these sorts of things like
00:25:41
Speaker
Is that sort of sacrifices you're making on profits or? you're managing to be able to produce it for a similar cost? I mean, it's a good question. I think our margins are lower, like definitely, because our per unit cost is higher at the moment. If you look at like a big brand, put in an order in for a quarter of a million pairs, and you know, we come along and put an order in for 6,000 pairs, you know what I mean? You've got to pay more per unit. And so our margins are definitely lower. How we're getting the way out at the moment is that because we are just focused on Australia,
00:26:13
Speaker
we are managing to keep our overheads relatively low because we go straight from the factory to us and then we control everything from here. And by micromanaging that process and not having distributors and middlemen in place and people who you know just take cuts all over the shop, we're managing to to fight and to um and to do to do pretty well ah for the moment. Yeah, but totally. it's Our cost of production is higher than the average brand. That's understandable. And I guess then for for you guys, it's better if say customers like myself buy directly from you rather than buying like from a third party, because that means that they're just going to be taking cuts as well. Not necessarily. um We're working with seven retailers right now. And to be honest, I prefer if you're both in your life. I'm not sure where you're lifting, but um there's no, um I think once those, would it's nice to support those retailers as well in getting that because we're not working with massive chains. We're just working with not mum and dad shops, but just those grassroots running companies and running shops.
00:27:18
Speaker
that love startup brands and they're getting behind us and therefore in a roundabout way I'd love to get behind them and and so even though obviously the margin is a lot less for us than you buy from a shop, um um I want those shops to you know keep stocking tarkines. If I had to say, i'd say no if there's a local shop, if you're living where there is one and there's not that many yet but there's more come in, then go and grab a pair from those guys. and Great. That's good to know. So where can I go in Melbourne to to pick up? Oh, in Melbourne, nowhere yet in Melbourne. We've got two shops in Brizzy and five shops in Perth. We're talking to a couple in Sydney. Our problem is at the moment is that we've got, we're running out of shoes, think so and like which is a good problem, but I can't bring on more shops until we get more shoes because I don't want to let these shops down. So we've got a new order placed and we're fixing up a tiny little, few that first production run, we had the webbing, like the lining up here, it would just wear wear're out a bit too quickly. Like after three or 400k, in some people, not in all people, you get a tiny bit of a wear and hold there. And so we've gone and made that a lot tougher so it doesn't happen. And we just fixed just a couple tiny things like that. And so ah should that the next order should be arriving in a few months. so
00:28:38
Speaker
Yeah, I've got to hold off on the shops until then. Yeah. but Did you know of any other attempts to do anything like this, like ah ah around the world? Adidas, definitely. They have a ah shoe parlay for ocean. It is good what they're doing. Like they're working with a company called Parlay where they you know go and collect ocean trash and they make the upper of the shoe, just, you know, just the upper of the shoe using the ocean trash. And so it's the same. It's the same things that we're doing. and But because they're out of this, they're massive. And I think it's a wonderful thing. I'm not sure if they're where the money goes after that. You know, I'm not sure they're getting behind massive organization, you know, environmental groups. And I'm not sure about that. In terms of the eco-friendly tech stuff of the shoe, that's something all that will get plugged and other brands will be doing it. um I think
00:29:26
Speaker
you know I've even been talking to some friends in the industry that have been watching what we're doing. And they've already you know I think there are already moves being made to everyone wants to be more eco-friendly. And that that's going to happen. But the question is, are they going to then turn around and pay for the recycling, which is what we're doing? Because that eats into your margin as well. And and then and are they also going to start you know putting their money, funneling it into important organizations?
00:29:55
Speaker
I think those things no one's doing like we're the only one that to my knowledge doing that. ah That's awesome and and I guess how can people get behind you? I mean obviously obviously buying shoes is is an obvious one and I guess sharing on social and that kind of stuff. Yeah but how can we help you out? Yeah it's just shoes but we also um we have you know trucker hats and shirts and they're all made you know we have recycled shirts that pre-consuming recycle bit. We have you know we have all sorts of other product too for people that haven't And we do like, I love, you know, Patagonia is a great brand and, you know, they are a brand that does funnel money into important, you know, organizations. And so um I would love to think that Tarkan can be more than just a running shoe company. You know, I'd love it to be a brand that people just, you know, they don't run just, great you know, wear the hat or wear the shirt or wear the, we've got some hoodies coming out next week and stuff like that, you know, and just getting behind us and, and supporting our brand and, you know, telling friends. And that's how things grow, you know, just word of mouth. Yeah, awesome. Anyone else got any questions or comments? um Have you been back to the Tarkon since Sam? I was down to run this year the Tarkon, but then we weren't allowed, I live in Fremantle in Western Australia and we weren't, I had to pull out like a week prior because our government still wasn't letting us, letting us leave the state at that point in time. That was in February, I think, February, early March, I can't remember a bit. I think it was late actually. And so, and then about two weeks later, they released the borders. So, I haven't been back since COVID, unfortunately, but I will be, I'm definitely going to run the race next year. And, and yeah, I'll be going back every, every year, as long as there's no more random pandemics that strike. Yeah. And as long as they continue to log the native forests of Tasmania. think Yeah. I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon, especially unless
00:31:38
Speaker
the mining as well. you know and Because it is an interesting point. we've We've had these chats a lot at For Wild Places in that as soon as you're a not-for-profit trying to do good things, it's very hard to get money. Whereas if you're like a you know tech startup or you know like you said, an apparel company or something, there's a lot of money to be made. but Do you feel like this experience has kind of given you more of an insight into how by building this model that other companies that do sell products can see that there's an advantage to having that good, you know, giving back thing built into the organization and that becoming more common? Because I think that a lot of people think it's too hard, but I feel like you've shown on a smaller scale how it is possible and you can still, I guess, make money, but also do good at the same time. I think so. i just Look, it's so much competition. like If you want to go and start at you know an apparel company, i mean and you don't have a story behind you, it's something greater than just trying to do it for the sake of doing it. Look, um you're up against everybody, you know and the margins aren't great, and you just the competition's fierce, and I just don't think you have any chance of succeeding unless you know you're one of these lucky brands who got to start 30 years ago. you know And so I think for anyone to have a shot
00:32:53
Speaker
these days there needs to be a story behind the brand and it needs to be a real brand that stands for something and never backs down. you know I think that's the only way and I think yeah i think we're off to a great start and I've i've shown that that that model works but it's early days for us. you know like I don't want to get ahead of myself. It's like you know i've been around for like six months. let's just Let's just touch base in six years and see how we're doing. you know But yeah, I do think it's something i do think there's something behind standing for something and having a brand that actually you know believes in something. Was the crowdfunding and the kind of essential way to do that, to be able to you know get that big product run initially? Look, to be totally totally honest with you guys, we had a quarter of a million dollar bill that we had to pay. And I was freaking out thinking, I don't know, I want to do this. And so I was like, let's just launch Kickstarter and just see if anyone cares about us.
00:33:44
Speaker
and so That's why we did it because I just before I was going to risk everything. I just decided to just put it out there. And if we get like two people rock up, then obviously it's a bad idea. But if we get, you know, people rock up, then maybe we've got something. And it was as simple as that. It really was. It was just we did that for a tick of approval, really, before we took a massive risk.
00:34:06
Speaker
And were you happy with how how it it all ended up? Yeah, I am. Yeah, it's yeah totally. I am happy. It was it was not a fun process. It was exciting. I'm glad I've done it once in my life. But I think that's that you know in terms of crowdfunding. A lot of There are a lot of things that go into it. like I think we're getting like 100 emails a day. just It was a lot to keep up with and it went well. well yeah the ah The funny thing is that I've been involved in a few Kickstarter campaigns like as a consumer just buying and usually you need to wait 12 months, 18 months and sometimes the product never turns up. and
00:34:41
Speaker
We were the opposite. like we We had the product nearly ready. And I was like, I ah don't even know if I want to pay the big bill. So then we decided to just test the waters. And so everyone got their product within three months, which is nearly unheard of for Kickstarter. And so I think we have a lot of happy happy kind of talk on people with that have experienced experience kind of a fast service from us. And hopefully that puts us in good stead. Yeah, definitely. I know I'm still waiting on some Kickstarter, like, you know, things that I signed up to years ago, and and it's kind of you kind of forget about it. But when you actually do follow through and not only
00:35:17
Speaker
follow through but in a quicker time frame, yeah, people definitely remember that and hopefully you've got a customer for life. and Yeah, i think I think you need to under promise and over deliver with the old Kickstarter, you know, that was that was my theory anyway. If you got things to that point though, you must have gone out on a failing yourself, Sam.
00:35:36
Speaker
Yeah, but definitely. Yeah, it's, look, it's, it's not a small endeavor. It's something that, yeah, I've taken a risk and I've been, you know, yeah I've been working full time for, I don't know, 16, 16 years. So, and so like, it's, I've saved some money, but it's not, you know, yeah, it's that's a big risk for me. Like, it's not something that, like, if I lost all that, I'd be like, oh,
00:35:59
Speaker
You know, Dan, what do I do now? But like, yeah, look, you only live once. You know, I just thought I just I can always go back and work full time as a vet. Like I'm still working one night shift a week at the moment to to just take, you know, just to stay in it. and It didn't work. I just thought if it didn't work, I'd just go back and work full time and I'm going to be fine. My kids will still be able to go to school and eat. and It's all good. You know, you got to have family at once. And I just thought, let's just go for it.
00:36:25
Speaker
have a crack and what will be will be you know wow that's really bloody admirable yeah and i just want to say as well i'm i'm sure chris will sorry will whose name is chris we'll get to this later but yeah we really appreciate you coming on board with a membership and being generous in giving away two pairs of of the um of the goshawk. I know that from everyone I've spoken to mary that has um got a pair has absolutely loved them which I think is you know people are often surprised in the sense that like Will said often you sacrifice quality when it comes to buying something that is more environmentally friendly so yeah kudos to you for sticking at it and creating a product that not only um is more durable and lasts longer but also is recyclable and I think just makes people realize that
00:37:10
Speaker
You know, shoes are such a um key part of running, but people, man, people go through a lot of pairs. So having something that and kind of lessened that impact, even though, yeah, there still isn't impact is really admirable and hopefully forces others to do better and think more about the afterlife of their products as well. A big plug to get the flu row ones too. Cause I was thinking about getting the black ones, but I got the flu row ones and every run I've gone to, at least someone has gone, what are they? And I've started a conversation. So it's. The most popular one is the Black Upper with the Fluoro Green Bottom. The mid-solve Fluoro Green, the Upper is Black. eye I think we sell like five times more of that colourway than any other bit. Yeah, I like the Fluoro as well, you know. Thanks, heaps, Sam. I won't repeat that thanks that Hilary said that covered it, but I totally agree. Yeah, for those folks here, but also listening to this recording, um please please check out Tarkine's at the website, Instagram, Facee. Thanks, Sam, again, so much for um for your generosity. And thanks, heaps, for joining us today at our first public trail chat.
Progress and Reflections with Sam Burke
00:38:14
Speaker
We caught up again with Sam a few months ago in June 2024 to see what has unfolded at Tarkine over the past few years. Here's my conversation with Sam.
00:38:28
Speaker
Thanks for joining us, Sam. It's been a long time since we caught up in this format. There's been lots of emails back and forth between for Wild Places and Tarkine over the past couple of years. But before we get into things, how are you? And yeah, what's what what were you busy at today? Oh, we will. Thanks. Yeah. um I'm always busy. It's pretty fun and exciting running a shoe company. Today we've been we've placed the order for, we finalised the Trail Devil 2 order today. So that's been placed and we we signed off in the final
00:39:02
Speaker
prototypes called the they called the confirmation samples where the final samples you get before you pull the trigger on mass production over in water. so So that happened today with the triad level twos and they're going to be arriving in September which are pretty excited about. We've updated the shoe. We're really low in stock in triad level one. We have like we sold out of like six or seven sizes now and in certain colorways and so we we desperately need this new new lot of shoes and we've upgraded a lot. The midsole is a pebax-based midsole now or P-Buck I meant to say which is a really lightweight bouncy midsole that a lot of listeners will know about and the up has been updated, the outsole has been updated so
00:39:38
Speaker
Yeah, so I'm really excited about that shoe that was pretty much took up the entirety of today. That's huge. It must be incredibly nerve-wracking. I just get nervous when I'm buying stuff online. How stressful is it getting to that process where you're getting a container load of shoes and hope it all works out? Yeah, I mean, it's it's pretty, it can be stressful. Like I think when we were launching back in like late 21 or whatever, I was kind of a bit naive, maybe, and I just, I don't know. I wasn't that much younger, but I just kind of jumped into it and kind of closed my eyes and just paid all the bills and just hoped for the best. You know what I mean? Whereas these days, like we're getting a lot better at what we do. I'm still pretty nervous when it comes to spending money, though. Like I have to get my business partner, Ross, like to sometimes press a submit button on the bank account, you know, because he's a bit more kind of cowboyish, you know, so. Um, but it is hard because you only have a certain number of dollars in the bank. And if you spend it all, then you, then you, you know, it's lights out, you know? And so you guard that, you guard that, um, and you try and spend it, make sure that, you know, what you spend, you're going to get your seat back and, and hopefully a bit more than that. So you can keep going. You know, it's, it's not easy, but it's all fun. You know, life's short. Maybe we'll have a, maybe we'll do things like this.
00:40:54
Speaker
Yeah, well, since we last spoke to you in May 2022, like you said, the Goshawk was out. I guess you were still recovering from the stress of the GoFundMe campaign and pulling all that together and then getting your first big drop of product. Since then, you've not only bought out the first trail devil, you've just signed up to get the 2.0 and you've got a bunch of merch and Tarkine has taken over. It's not often near you're waiting at a start line and you look around, there isn't a person there not wearing a pair of tachines. So it's been a massive two years for for the brand. Sounds like you're kind of finding your groove and you're getting more comfortable with the uncomfortable decisions. You know, if you were to look forward back then, are you where you thought you'd be two years down the track?
00:41:42
Speaker
I was probably a bit naive. like I thought maybe it would be easier than it is. ah you know It's really ruthlessly hard. We're up against like a lot of kind of companies worth billions of dollars. right and They've all listed on stock markets and have you know a lot of endless access to cut the capital markets and stuff and pretty much a funnel of of as much money as they need. and it's It's not easy. So it's probably been harder than I thought it would ever be. But I guess that's that's the way it is. Like once you're in deep, you just kind of need to keep digging in and and just keep moving forward. But to the same extent, like the success we've had, I probably like some days like I did a trial race at Transcend Ultra um last weekend in Perth. It's a really awesome race. Like everyone thinks purse flat. But you know, Transcend actually has some some attitude, you know, like
00:42:35
Speaker
I only did two legs out of the five bit. I think I climbed over a thousand meters within 29 kms. It was a decent climbing bit. I reckon 20% of the field were wearing tuck lines. It's definitely our homeland out there because of where we're based and stuff, but there were just that many trail devils. and and It was really, really exciting to see. and I kind of just took of stepped back and said, hey, you know like we've actually got a brand here and it's growing. and Month-to-month growth is exciting. so i'm really excited you know I'm really excited. I was probably naive three or four years ago when I was setting out on this, but but now I look back and think, hey, like this is real. I think that if we were going to fail, we probably would have failed already. And this is real. We've got you know a huge customer base now that that we can grow from. And we've got a little team here now, hired a bunch of in-house staff, which is really fun. So I've got like this little family here that is kind of like startup mode. i could We all sit around and talk talk crap all day long. It's a good time. to
00:43:29
Speaker
It's so great that you've got over those early stages where it is do or die and nay, like you said, you found your groove. It must feel really amazing yeah to look out amongst the field and like you said, you are in yeah in your home state and on your home turf. but All these people wearing wearing shoes that you've laboriously analyzed every single detail. Are you known as the as one of the people behind Tarkine or in that kind of scenario, do you just kind of participate like any other puncher?
Personal Insights and Product Focus
00:44:00
Speaker
I'm a bit of an introvert, to be honest. I mean, I i don't set out to be known as that person. i definitely I don't think anyone knows who I am, to be honest with you. So, I mean, I don't know what other people think, but i'm not that's definitely not my perception.
00:44:14
Speaker
I just smile and just go about my day. But yeah i'm I'm certainly not an in-your-face type top guy. I like ah like just going for runs and chilling in the home, to be honest. Are you ever tempted to ask people what they think and kick off a conversation?
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah, last weekend I was running past a bunch of people and I just saw them in the devils and I just started chatting. I had some good yarns with people. You know and so ah you know you' learn a lot about a shoe when people you know people are just talking off the cuff like that. and they If I say ask a good friend of mine, what do you think about about something we're working on? Then I'm just not sure that I get a few people I trust us to tell me the way it is. And and if they don't like something, they'll speak up. But I think it's just human nature. A lot of people will tell me what I want to hear. And and that's not ideal. You know, when you're trying to produce a da product. Yeah. So, yeah, I do like to speak to people just ah off the cuff like that. Yeah. Yeah, people are very particular about shoes. And um and that's one thing I found with the Tarkine is that even though, like you said, it's such a competitive market, you seem to have filled a gap really well in terms of the fit and the wide toe box. and But then also the the added you know sustainability that you've incorporated into the shoe. Since you've started, how has that kind of progressed and how have I'm sure there's been a huge learning curve in that sense as well. yeah
00:45:42
Speaker
How does the, I guess, the new trial devil compared to, you know, the original Goss Hawk in terms of their take-home credentials? like Yeah. that It's hard. And there's there's a lot of greenwashing that goes on in life in general and also in the shoe game. And, you know, and I try and just try and stay clear of it and just be really ah honest and transparent with you. Like the greenest thing to do is to never produce anything, right? You know, just wear bare feet, just Yeah, totally. Don't don't manufacture a single thing. you know and so you know so It's all a little bit kind of tongue-in-cheek, isn't it? you know um The gospel shoe was too eco-friendly in the sense that like even the sock liner or the insert, um I think as most people refer it to it as
00:46:23
Speaker
it was biodegradable and one one of the issues with that is like if you're someone who never wears socks like this thing would literally be biodegrading as you're wearing it and it'll be it didn't last long enough and so I learned some hard things that like you know people people love an eco-friendly brand that gives a shit about the environment but but at the end of the day like they're buying a product because it's got to feel good for their feet and Um, and they're running and even, and most people would tell you, Oh yeah, I care about the environment, but then when it comes down to it, they really care about how the shoe feels way, way, way more. And so like, you know, with the trial level one and trial level two, and we're bringing out a shoe called the auto pilot in about five, five weeks and hours. Um, it's set to launch, which is a high stack, really soft, um, road shoe. And.
00:47:08
Speaker
We've taken a step back, you know, like where insert isn't biodegradable, but the upper is still recycled. and But one of the biggest things we're doing is, yes, we're maximizing how much of recycled content we can use in the mesh uppers and stuff. But we're also, you know, we we do so much more than just and just what goes into the shoe. Like we have this rerun program where you know, there's so many shoes that come back to us where someone buys like a 10 US and they need a 10 and a half US. And so we exchange it for them, but they've already done 10K in it and we can't sell it brand new. so we So we're cleaning those shoes as best we can and we reselling them a lot cheaper for people because we had hundreds and hundreds of shoes lying around. Sometimes times people come into our warehouse here, put a pair of shoes on, you know, go for 500 metre run along the road and then buy a size down. And it's kind of like, I don't think they realize that we can't use that shoe. You know what I mean? We can't sell it. Yeah.
00:47:56
Speaker
going for a run through muddy net. So like, there's a lot of shoes that wear recycling in that manner, which are still totally fine and should not be chucked out. We're also paying like once shoes are smashed, like, so, you know, we get we've had thousands of shoes now to come back to us that have done 1000 K or something that we pay to get recycled. So we're sending that to a recycling plant and there's getting turned into like yoga mats and hospital mats and stuff like that. And then we're sending, you know, as you know, like we're supporters of for our places and we also send 1% of revenue to Bob Brown Foundation at the moment. And, you know, and that's a serious commitment. I know that, you know, from experience like, you know, that I take that seriously and it's not something that kind of like we say we're going to do and don't do it. It's something that we actually do.
00:48:44
Speaker
So yeah, it's like we're doing everything we can on that front. And I think it's just that, you know, but there is a bit of green wash and I want to stay clear of it. We're not, we're not like this amazing shoe that biodegrades in the second you finished with it and it just disappears into dirt because these things don't exist. Hey.
00:49:00
Speaker
Totally. And I think you're right. It is so rife, that green washing. And it I find I get really frustrated because you say, bake the sustainable way, use a silicone baking mat, for example. And it's like, well, that's good. But it's still a product that has to be made out of materials by a person in a country and come here. But if you look after that and use it for as long as possible,
00:49:24
Speaker
That's where its real value is. And then what is the life after that? You're totally right. We've been told that the it's up to the products, and it is. We can buy things more better quality and buy smarter, not rather than just buying lots of something. But what happens afterwards, and how does it go back into the system? So many brands don't do that at all as well. So I think just the fact that you're so cognizant of it. And and also learning. like yeah Like you said, you started off and you were probably ninety naive, which you know in hindsight was probably a ah good thing, do you think, to go in not knowing what you were setting your up yourself up for? But then being like, yeah, we thought biodegradable was the way to go, but it made a product that didn't last as long as it should. So you reiterate and you keep learning. And I think, yeah, that's a real
00:50:15
Speaker
you know opportunity for people to to think about things differently. because Like you said, there is a lot of greenwashing out there. so You've got yeah a couple of new shoes on the market. What does the next 12 months look like for Tarkon? The trail level is our most successful product by far. and so Obviously, that I've already said Season 2. That's coming out in September. but you know The Goshawk, our first ever shoe, it was popular. We've sold out on two seasons of it already. We've got season three coming next year. But it only worked for some road runners. It doesn't work for the masses. like These days, feedback from customers is that you know they really want more cushion and more cushion, kind of like the trail level bit, a road version of the trail level. you know And so we're bringing out the autopilot, which is already finished, and it's on the way at the moment. And that is, I think, going to plug that.
00:51:06
Speaker
gap in Tarkon's product line where we'll have a really high stack, very, very soft, incredibly comfy road shoe. And I think that once we get that, I think hopefully Tarkon will grow in leaps and bounds very, very quickly. And then we're bringing out another road shoe next year called the Road Devil, which is literally just like the Triad Devil bit with an outsole, road outsole on it. And Yeah, we just we're just working on a new product and just trying to do it in a way that you know wet we don't want to grow too quick and blow up. We just need to do it so slow and steady and just keep chipping all away. Sounds like there's so many iterations and versions and and all of that would take a very long time as well. so From concept to execution to holding that new product in your hand, how long would that process be for for one of these new shoes? A brand new shoe from concept to actual delivery, the warehouse, 12 months, I'd say. But let's say it's from a season one to a season two, you probably need five to six months um if you work quickly. But it's easy for that to blow out to 10 months. Like the trail level two took
00:52:09
Speaker
took a good 12 months, and but we did put stuff around a little bit. but it's It's a minimum of 12 months for a new product, and I'd say six to eight months for you know an updated product. so it's ah It's a slow-moving beast, the the shoe game. It's not like an IT product that you just punch out. you know it's like It takes a long time. and shipping's expensive and shipping's slow. It's a long game you're playing. Yeah, there's a lot involved. Are you still sending out everything from over in Perth or are you in some stores now? Yeah, we are. We're in the shop in Devonport in Tassie. We're in Pace Athletic in Sydney. Um, paste athletic have a whole bunch of shops. So we've kind of really teamed up with those guys and then, yeah, they're really smashing it. They just, you know, a lot of listeners will know this, but they acquired, you know, the blue mountains running company a few months back and they've got a whole bunch of shops all across Sydney. So they were obviously smashing it. And so they're our biggest partner on the East coast really. Then we're in running warehouse, which I'm sure everyone knows about who, um, you know, have a shop in Chatswood, um, two in Perth and one in Melbourne. and obviously a massive online presence. And then Tribe and Trail in Perth, Running Works in Perth. We're in also about 10 podiatries now across the country. Yeah, they don't sell online, but part of the contractors, they should just sell an in-house to their customers. We have about another 30 that want to jump on that list. We just don't have enough stock of the trail devil. So that podiatry market is going to be exploding over the next 12 months touchwood. Yeah, nice. And one thing we've talked about in the past, or you've mentioned is, and anyone who I feel like is on social media and is a runner has seen a Tarkon ad at some point. I think I'm, I'm right there in your demographics. Cause that's where every time I go on social media, you're there. But how have you found the marketing world having to be part of this very complex and fickle world? How have you found that, that process?
00:54:03
Speaker
I've handled it by not being involved in it. and speakingy out like like I'm not into social media or, and you know, I don't rarely look at at that stuff. Maybe I'm a bit old school, but my business partner of Ross is really, really good at all that. And he's in charge of it. It's his full-time job really. He just sits in his office and just looks at, does meta and Google ads and all that stuff, which just drives me absolutely up the wall if I had to even think about it. so So I've checked out from that side of the business. I don't really understand it or want to, but, ah you know, Ross gives me reports every now and then. I just kind of smile and, you know, to pretend is my know what he's talking about, to be honest. Well, like you said, stick to what you know and what you enjoy. And we're Ross is doing a doing a great job. And I think as well, your ambassadors, like a kind of Matt Gore and those people who are still still wearing tachines are just
00:54:55
Speaker
Absolutely going from strength to strength. Those guys are legends. We've got Mack Gore, but then we have Phil Gore too. Yes, can't forget the goat. And Akana is obviously a legend. We're working on a few more and and some really big names, but i can't you know they're not, either those aren't kind of sealed yet. so Yeah. Oh, well, we look forward to to seeing who they are because that's the world we live in now as well. That kind of social media influence. ah People that you look up to does play a really big part in in introducing people to new brands that they might not have heard of. And they're such good um spokespeople for for the work that you do and passionate about, you know, Akana's run and that sort of thing. It's just awesome. As well, like you supported the likes of Akana when no one else would, you know, in her early days. Yeah. And like Akana would tell that story better than me, but, um, I don't think we were the first that she reached out to. I'm not sure that she got rejected by a lot of the big ones and she wasn't well known yet. And I just thought she sounded cool, you know, and she sounded cool. And she cared about the environment and stuff. And I was like, well, what the hell, you know, let's do it. So.
00:56:02
Speaker
Um, that's worked out well. And, and, and I think that we have a really open door policy. Like if, if anyone's listening to this and they're doing something cool and you know, just reach out, like if it makes sense, we're going to get involved. You know, we're not going to just say, no, you actually get it. Well, you'll get a reply from me, you know, like.
00:56:17
Speaker
Um, and if it makes sense, we'll, we'll come along and help out, you know? Yeah. And that's part of it as well. A lot of these shoe and apparel brands are, like you said, multinational, big, big businesses. And whereas if you send an email to Tucker and chances are you'll get, you know, yourself sending a reply and you can make a decision without having to go the ladder of 12 different people within the company. It's just, yep, that looks cool. Why not? Let's get behind you. It's just red tape city. Hey. like Yeah, we make we can make quick decisions, but you know we we can't hire someone and pay them $10 million dollars or anything yet. Yeah. Well, there's something to be said for being able to keep things fast and loose and feel like that's when things stay interesting. I'm sure every day, your day is very different and varied and you're getting out to different events and and meeting people and designing shoes and all this kind of fun stuff. It's been fun.
00:57:11
Speaker
Yeah, and that's the main thing, isn't it? That's why you got into it. 100%, yeah. I was just kind of bored in my old life, you know, just wanting to have a have a crack at something fun, you know, something new. Yeah. So have you given up the the vet game for good now, Sam? I still do. Like, look, I was going to say one shift a week, but it's not even that at the moment. It's more like one shift a fortnight. So I'm still trying to keep my skills up and in there, but yeah, it's definitely taking a massive backseat. But I feel like I could go back to it anytime because I did so much of it for 15 years, but it was years and years where I was kind of crunching out 70, 80 hour weeks for a long time. And um so I feel like I can get back and into it whenever I want to. It's just, yeah. mean It's not my focus, I'm just trying to, I just want to go tark on and and have that, you know, continue to to succeed and and go from strength to strength, you know. It's nice having choices and while it's while it's fun and you're loving it, keep keep doing what you're doing. Yeah, thank you. So good. Well, thanks so much for taking the time, Sam. It's nice to hear that things have been going from strength to strength in the past few years and excited to see what the trail devil season two have been offer and thanks for taking the time. Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for the chat. No worries.
00:58:21
Speaker
And we've come to the finish line of our first ever for wild places podcast. Thank you for joining us and reliving this insightful conversation with Sam from Tarkine Running. If you'd like to learn more about Tarkine, including their rerun program, head to Tarkine.com or follow them on socials at Tarkine athletics.
00:58:38
Speaker
If you'd like to learn more about what we do here at For Wild Places, you can stay in touch by subscribing to this podcast or our weekly newsletter. If you consider yourself a Wild Places Protector, then maybe you'd like to become a member. For a monthly or annual fee, you can support the ongoing work of For Wild Places and help bring new initiatives to life.
00:58:56
Speaker
For more information and to subscribe or become a member, head to forwildplaces dot.com or find us on socials at For Wild Places. Thanks again for joining us. We are stoked to have you here. We hope this conversation gave you some insight into the complex and competitive world of running shoes. Thanks again, Sam, for taking the time to chat with us. Until next time, happy trails. And as always, thank you for taking the time for Wild Places.