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13. The meandering and magical story of 'unlikely hiker' turned off-track explorer, Caro Ryan
54 Plays1 month ago
In today's episode, we're catching up with the effervescent Caro Ryan, aka Lotsa fresh air. Caro is a self-proclaimed unexpected outdoors chick who spends her days exploring the many beautiful multi-day walks across our continent and embracing the freedom of off-track exploration. Caro is the wearer of many hats - educator, tour guide, search and rescue volunteer, podcast host and most importantly, a genuinely kind and bright human.
We first caught up with Caro in December 2023, fresh off Caro's completion of the newly opened Grampians Peaks Trail. We then caught up in early November 2025, where we picked up the conversation talking about storytelling, the pros and cons of social media, and regenerative tourism.
Although the Blue Mountains may be Caro’s home trails, she has wandered near and far and has years of experience she is eager to share. Motivated by a desire to give others the tools they need to feel comfortable and get out into nature, Caro is an open book when it comes to her experience navigating the complexity of social media, combining work and pleasure, and our modern approach to adventure.
Sign up for one of Caro's Nav Courses, get a copy of her book or simply get lost in the treasure trove of travel tips at www.lotsafreshair.com. You can also follow Caro on Instagram @lotsafreshair or YouTube.
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Transcript
Introduction and Acknowledgments
00:00:01
Speaker
Welcome to the For Wild Places podcast. I'm your host, Hilary, and today we are excited to bring you a chat with unlikely hiker, Blue Mountains local and off-track aficionado, Caro Ryan. Before we jump into the chat with Caro, I'd like to pay my deepest respects to the custodians of the lands of which I'm on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation, and recognise that we are all on unceded lands.
00:00:24
Speaker
We are deeply grateful to the First Nations people for being kind, humble and respectful custodians of land, waters and culture for tens of thousands of years. This always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Caro Ryan's Outdoor Journey
00:00:36
Speaker
Today we are chatting with the effervescent Karo Ryan, aka Lots of Fresh Air. Karo is a self-proclaimed unexpected outdoors chick who spends her days exploring the many beautiful multi-day walks across our continent, as well as embracing the freedom of off-track exploring.
00:00:51
Speaker
Karo is the wearer of many hats. educator, tour guide, search and rescue volunteer, podcast host, and most importantly, a genuinely kind and bright human. I first caught up with Caro for our first in-person trail chat in Nippaluna Hobart in December 2023 when Caro and I first met. We covered a range of topics, including Caro's recent experience on the newly opened Grampians Peaks Trail, volunteering with the SES and her fervent passion for topo maps.
00:01:17
Speaker
We then caught up in early November 2025 where we picked up the conversation talking about storytelling, the pros and cons of social media and regenerative tourism. Although the Blue Mountains may be Caro's home trails, she has wandered near and far and has years of experience which she is eager to share.
00:01:33
Speaker
Motivated by a desire to give others the tools they need to feel comfortable and get out into nature, Caro is an open book when it comes to her experience navigating the complexity of social media, combining work and pleasure, and our modern approach to adventure.
00:01:46
Speaker
Let's get into my chat with Caro from December 2023.
00:01:51
Speaker
Good morning, everyone. Welcome to our 19th trail chat, but our first in-person trail chat, which is very exciting. I'm Hilary. I'm the CEO of For Wild Places, and today we have the amazing Caro Ryan joining us.
00:02:04
Speaker
Before we get started, though, I did want to acknowledge that today carol and I are meeting on the lands of the Palawa people. We're in Nipaluna, Hobart. And we pay our respects to the traditional owners who have cared for country since time immemorial.
Power of Storytelling in Adventures
00:02:16
Speaker
And in Tasmania, they have an especially atrocious history with white colonisation, essentially trying to um just a genocide in terms of how they treated the Palawa people. But it's really great to see the Palawa culture shining through, like the mountain that overlooks Hobart is now known as Kunani, as opposed to Mount Wellington, and other places like Takaina are being recognised as the traditional places that they are as opposed to the white colonized name. So I'm very excited to be here. So we are in Hobart because were meant to have our travel chat yesterday, but Caro got an awesome opportunity to host an adventure story slam with the North Face down here. The North Face have just opened a store down in the city and they wanted to welcome everyone. And it was a really awesome night. And Caro was playing host. It was at the Hobart Brewing Co.
00:03:11
Speaker
Bit of a hard area to wrangle with lots of people, but how did you find it? It was great. it was a great venue, big open air space. And because there's some really nice trees and shrubs amongst the space kind of meant that, you know, there's kind of people hiding over there. But I don't know what the final numbers were, like at least a couple of hundred people and all coming together.
00:03:33
Speaker
for that purpose of storytelling and recognizing the power of story, recognizing the power of connecting through stories and what stories can do for us as people in community and culture um and society in general, which is, you know, I think story is glue that, and I said it a few times, was like, story is the glue that kind of holds society and culture together. that's that That's what I think anyway. And I think as well, like a lot of, some of the stories happened when there was no one else around. So it happens to you, especially when you're out in a wild place on your own and you're kind of like...
00:04:09
Speaker
this is wild. I wish I could share this with someone. And then you might tell your friends and stuff, but it's quite fun to watch the whole crowd's reaction to something that happened to one person, like when they were hiking across Patagonia on the other side of the world. So yeah. And there a real diversity of stories as well, like paddlers, fly fishermen, hikers.
00:04:31
Speaker
And in different kinds of terrain, different kinds of environments too. So from Alpine to rivers and mountain, you know, above treeline, that kind of thing. So, yeah, really diverse. But I will never think of when I see undies flying in the wind at the top of a mountain, I'll definitely be thinking of that story last night that was told.
00:04:53
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I love this guy. He's been very resourceful. He's got this brand of undies that he really loves, but they're like discontinued. And he found a pair on a stick while he was doing the Western Arthas and thought, bugger it, I'm keeping with his legs.
00:05:07
Speaker
And now he's got all this gear. He's trying to like get a full running or like outdoors kit from stuff that he's found. Cause I often, yeah, often like a glove and a cap and like the things that often people drop. I'm not sure how he'll go with like, I don't know, shorts or i guess anyway, if you try long enough. But I do have just major shout out for the love of Hilary because she got up and told a story last night too, which was pretty epic.
00:05:35
Speaker
And I don't know, do we share it now oh you keep it for another
Embracing the Outdoors: Overcoming Challenges
00:05:38
Speaker
time? Well, I'm i'm sure that ah some of the crew here have heard about some of my misadventures in the wild. This one was about when my AeroPress incident on the South Coast track a few years ago that ended up me having ah ended up with me in hospital for a week with a skin graft. But we only had five minutes, so I had to kind of wrap things up at the end. The theme was misadventure, so I had quite a few stories to draw from, as many of you know. It would have been a great, the kind of story that you'd want to do around a fire, you know, or around the camp somewhere, just kicking back, sun's going down, and you've got like 10 minutes to draw it out. Yeah, and people like ask questions because they're like, why didn't you get a helicopter? draw Why didn't you do that? And you're like, I know, that's a great question. But a story slam is...
00:06:20
Speaker
You know, it's a thing. You've got five minutes and there's a bell that rings and it's about taking people on the journey and story from beginning, middle and end. and Yeah, it was a really, really good format. And I hope that the North Face are happy with how it went and would be keen to roll them out in other stores because I think it's a really nice way to, I guess, bring people together and also profile different people who aren't, you know, athletes or, you know, just normal people doing extraordinary things and getting into a bit of trouble along the way. It's little bit of an epic. Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's nice because I think there's something around the outdoor space and, you know, know we're talking with a lot of trail runners and people who, friends of mine who are trail runners, they sort of hit me all the time when I say, oh, I'm really just a trail shuffler. And they no, you're a trail runner. But there's this sense that you have to be something epic and amazing and, you know, breaking records and all this kind of stuff. to call yourself or to feel like you belong in these spaces but it's just not the case so to have those kind of really everyday person type stories but realizing there's like such treasure and gold when you give someone the opportunity to speak it's like oh my god and then they realize oh my god i didn't know i had that inside yeah yeah it's very power story totally and i think that's a good segue as well because you call yourself an unlikely hiker
00:07:42
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. So what was your, I guess, introduction or when did you like start to call yourself a hiker? Well, being an old school kind of a lass that I am, I'd probably use the term bushwalker. Yeah, so lots of different terms, bushwalker, hiker, trekker, tramper, whatever you call it. It's all ice cream, it's all good. It's just, you know, different flavours, whatever you call it. So yeah, I grew up in a family that was really not outdoorsy at all.
00:08:08
Speaker
Never went camping as a kid. never, you know, never sort of had that experience of what it meant to put up a tent or to do anything more than maybe just sort of, you know, after Christmas lunch or Christmas dinner or Mother's Day. So, oh, let's go for a walk and yeah walk off the big feed, you know. And so that wasn't something I grew up with. Didn't do scouts, didn't do girl guides, any of that kind of stuff. Didn't do Duke of Ed.
00:08:33
Speaker
And so the outdoors was kind of, and I think a lot of that now on reflection is interesting power that your parents and your home environment can have on you and how you connect to wild places or not.
00:08:47
Speaker
Turns out when I did a bit of digging, I found photos of my dad and him as a kid, and he used to love heading out into to bush and fishing and camping with mates down by rivers, but because Mum was so not into that. You know, her idea of five-star is kind of like, well, you know, or camping. It's like, where I plug the hairdryer kind of thing? So, yeah, just how your parents and a family environment can affect that. So, for me, it all changed when i went on a sort of an an outdoor experiential leadership training yeah kind of stuff, corporate dick type things, and I had no idea what I was getting myself into. And it was a three or four day in the Butterwangs. Mm-hmm.
00:09:31
Speaker
So for those not familiar, it's um the Butterwangs is an incredible park near Moreton National Park, sort of near Nowra, mid-south coast, I guess you'd call it, of New South Wales. And it had elements of off-track hiking in it, which, you know, for someone who's actually never eaten. And I remember apart from having a pack that was just like so overweight and out of just...
00:09:52
Speaker
I can't even think what I was carrying in that day, but we slept in an overhang and I had pushed myself physically and physically I was, I was the fat kid at school and felt, you know, I've always felt my body in quite big ways, felt quite a big person. And so I was the slowest in the group, but sleeping in this cave pushed myself physically. So I felt, you know, I was like the end of head, knackered, completely knackered.
00:10:20
Speaker
And I just couldn't believe when I woke up in the morning and no one else was actually, I slept, that was surprising, but sitting up in the cave and looking around and hearing the birds and It's just like I couldn't believe this was possible. I couldn't believe that you could be in a place like that and feel what you could feel in those places and smell and hear and, you know, and really feel your body and what your body felt in places like that. And I guess that was my first taste. I went, well, if if this is, but I never knew this was possible, but now I know it's possible. It's like, what's next?
00:10:58
Speaker
How else can I do some more of this? And it it was the kind of a clinch that completely changed my life. I mean, that sounds so dramatic. No, I totally know it. I think we've all kind
Navigation and Map Reading as an Art
00:11:08
Speaker
of, when you push yourself out of your comfort zone and and I think in saying like,
00:11:14
Speaker
when you wake up as well I think the fact that everything was okay because I feel like a lot of people look at camping or hiking or being outdoors and think oh but but this but that but you know all the things that can go wrong and then you do it and you're like oh hang on this is actually really peaceful and calming and like not a scary like intimidating process whereas if you're not used to that it's really easy to just like what's that word like over dramatize yeah it catastrophizes everything but oh my god yeah the snakes because i mean that's what everyone on probably say to you now they're like but what about where's the snakes aren't you afraid of getting lost and like when you think about they're all barriers and excuses of of reasons why not to and when you it it all comes down to fears that people have and it's like well if you can i guess i'm jumping ahead but if there's ways of
00:12:05
Speaker
reducing and removing those barriers to entry and to help people connect that they could possibly have and discover the same things. It's interesting, I think, also within my mother's culture that she grew up with and a lot of the traditional white Australian culture is that the whole colonial approach of the bush is something to be afraid of and it looks different to England. and oh my gosh, all those animals and there's so much to be scared of here. It's like, well...
00:12:33
Speaker
yeah and or yeah but it's like you know let's sort of you know dig into that and realize that there's a completely different way of looking at things and that's I think as well like the work that you've done through lots of fresh areas it's that really educational point of trying to empower people to give them the skills and the knowledge to be able to start whether it be just like a day hike or a bushwalk to an overnight through hike like the Grampians Peaks Trail and then interestingly I found that like with myself and talking to others there's a real like we've got all these gadgets and apps but people are kind of going back towards like a compass and maps and wanting to feel comfortable like if everything like to do it yourself as opposed to relying on a phone to like get you out of if you're lost how do you learn that yourself and bringing back that lost art I think of like
00:13:27
Speaker
the way that Tim McCartney Snape, who's an amazing adventurer, was there last night. And, you know, the way that they used to do it, pre-phones, GPS and all this and using the stars and like I'm still a long way from that. But has that been your, like, that's something that you're focusing on trying to, I guess, share your love and understanding and then, but also share that with others so they can...
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think of what happened to a lot of us during the pandemic was, you know, we got into sourdough baking, you know. We got into... Pickling. Pickling and permaculture and we looked at all these kind of things. We go, oh, that granny art, lost granny arts. And in so many ways, you know, you can think of map and compass navigation as being this lost granny art. um But I...
00:14:20
Speaker
i guess I guess to set it up is to say that, you know, i do want to connect people to wild places in ways that work for them. And I think something that it's really easy and you see it so much in social media, you see it so much online, you know, you've got the haters. It's like, oh, unless you're doing it my way, it's not the right way. Whereas, you know, I love map and compass. It doesn't mean I'm not going to use an app every now and then and kind of like, You know, as long as you, you go in gently and you're, you're not affecting anyone else, like you know, how you want to nav. But for me, I find map and compass navigation and topographic map reading.
00:15:00
Speaker
To me, it's about reading the land, reading the country and feeling that extra connection with it. To me, I want to bring my whole self into the bush. I don't just want to bring the part of me that goes, okay, it's just my feet are touching the ground and I feel the wind on my face as I walk through and that's it. Or I see nice things.
00:15:18
Speaker
I want to come in and feel the landscape change around me as I move through it. I want to then see that and I love that, um you know, a topo, um when when you see the landforms and the shapes and then you feel your body moving through those, to me it's like all of my senses are coming into the bush and bringing alive. And there's something about why and how a compass works anyway.
00:15:47
Speaker
i know. Totally. Yeah. but that it is this magnetic thing, this piece of metal that is reacting to this giant magnet within this big chunk of rock that we're standing on called the planet Earth. It's way more cool than an app when you think about it. It's way more cool. And the thing I love, it it is that It's kind of like that. It's the connection with the earth in itself because you're using this magnet.
00:16:11
Speaker
But you're also, i love that you're putting yourself in this position of reading the story in place. And that's how I describe what a topo is. It's like reading the book before you see the movie. So you can plan out a walk, a run or whatever it is. And, you know, I often lay out topos on the,
00:16:28
Speaker
or topos if you're American, sorry, layout maps on the on the ground and, you know glass of red wine and old school, even using ah ah an old piece of string, you know, and you put knots on the string at every kilometre mark. So you move the string around to see how the distance, measure the distance that way.
00:16:46
Speaker
But you go, oh, I know what that's going to feel like. Oh, I'm dropping 300 metres over, you know, 800 metres of a vertical, of of horizontal of distance. It's like, oh, wow I'm going to feel that. oh wow, that's a, that's a 600 metre ascent or that's ah a thousand metre ascent in, you know, 2K. Gosh, geez, I'm going to be hurting at the top. And I'm sure we've all made the mistake of like looking at a run or a hike and looking at the distance and being oh, yeah, that's 20K or 10K. That'll take me an hour. And then like you...
Trail Difficulty and Grampians Peaks Trail
00:17:17
Speaker
coming back four hours later, like absolutely smash because it's just like, you know, a roller coaster. And then you're like, oh I totally, that was my own mistake. But you just totally underestimate what you're getting into. It's so interesting. I mean, that's the first question, especially with people who maybe aren't, into outdoors or into places and putting your body in places like us the first question they go and you say oh what did you and they can I went for a trail I went went for a bushwalk they'll go oh how far was it and it's all about this distance it's like oh yeah and you go it was it was five k's they're like you know I run five ks and one for work you know but those five k's were you know had to scramble down through this line on this pass and I had to you know, find my way through this creek and then up this pass on the other side. And I drop, you know, 1800 metres in the course of an hour and a half. and they're like, I don't want understand. yeah but But it's 5K. It'll be easy. Yeah, sure. I'd love to come on a hike with you. And you're like, no, you wouldn't.
00:18:16
Speaker
But I'd love to have you alone here. Yeah, it's a tricky one. When we did the Western Arthurs a few years ago, that was just a totally humbling experience because you look at the, and you're reading the books and you're like, surely not. Like, this is not going to take us like six hours to go 5K. And then you get there and you're like oh shit, this is going to take us six hours because yeah it's just...
00:18:37
Speaker
crazy terrain and what you mentioned last night which I thought was really interesting was like because when we're doing the Western Arthurs we're thinking about the track cutters like the people who went in and made these trails and they have that incredible understanding of the topography and then you're like well why on earth is this track here and then you realize it's the only viable route that doesn't involve scaling a um you know a sheer cliff but you mentioned last i can't remember what the thing was but the people you've spoken to and the kind of approach that they take to putting creating tracks through a landscape was really really beautiful Yeah, I'm fascinated with tracks and trails because, you know, to sort of state the obvious is that us white fellas, we've been kind of just walking around in these places for not very long, really. Oh, surprise, surprise. The places where modern day track builders are building routes are quite often traditional routes and traditional ways. Yeah. Because why make things hard on yourself? totally And to me, it's, and that's what I love about exploration and off track stuff is like reading the topo, reading the land. It's learning to walk with country and not against it. Why make things hard on yourself? Let's just walk with how the landscape is drawing and pulling us through these places. But yeah, track builders, I had the privilege of creating a little mini doco about a track in the mountains, the Grand Clifftop Walk. which realizing that the art of track building isn't just going with with the land but also managing water flow so it's about ah not so much building tracks but controlling water to stop erosion and that kind of thing but um Yeah, and it it all comes, it's again, it's everything's connected back to story and journey and place and, yeah, it's a it' a wild, wild world we get to live in. Yeah, it's pretty amazing where we have our Piligar Ultra event. All the tracks out there are made by this lovely gentleman called Kerry who's probably in his 70s. Yeah. And he lives in Tamworth and he heads out to Peeligar Pottery. He calls it the pot tree.
00:20:41
Speaker
Bless him. And he's made all of the trails out there. And that's just like what he likes to do. And he's got this amazing land cruiser set up and he'll just park himself in the bush and camp there for days. And it was funny. We got him to do a bit of a pre-race briefing before the runners went out. And he was very adamant because he's got a lot of like kind of rises in the tracks to divert water. die And he's like, don't step on them. like You don't know what they're there Exactly. Like, for you know, there might be an annoying little bump, but they're an important part of the water flow because especially in that area, they get huge deluges. And, you know, and if you don't, if you're not, yeah, the water can just...
00:21:20
Speaker
like cram like the track just becomes ah a bog a bog and then where I live on the surf coast like sometimes there's like a foot of erosion in the trail because it's just become an absolute waterfall and it's and then around it is just no water and then the track is just like I went out there once when it was pouring and there was like a foot of water on the trail and everywhere else was yeah fine you know and that's that a poorly something that's not designed in a way to divert water and Not for that long-termism, but speaking of amazing trails, you recently did the Grampians Peaks Trail. Yes, yes. all The whole hog. The whole hog.
00:21:56
Speaker
How many days? I did it the, you know, the official classified, which is, yeah, 12 nights, 13 days. And that's a pretty amazing trail. I guess because you live around the Blue Mountains and there's pretty amazing trails out there as well in terms of the work that goes into building them. But when I first headed out there, was amazed at all of the stonework and just, and once again, a trail being made to last through bushfires and, you know, because it's the grand, the mile is out there this weekend. So I'm sure a lot people. Yeah. going it's not quite what I thought but um yeah it's like being and it's cost a lot of money but it's an investment in something that will last a long time and a long time yeah and hopefully allow a lot more people to get out there and explore it but what was yeah because you spent much time in the Grampians before heading I had never been Grampians Gary word before so it was but but I went with
00:23:01
Speaker
absolute curiosity you know full disclosure parks actually asked me to go down and i was like giddy up you know because i'd heard so much online during the building process and it took a long like it was years years years in the making so i'd heard lots of different voices in the mix and people were asking my opinion i'm like well i can't give an opinion i could just do what everyone else does not that everyone else does because i just think oh Joins a particular, you know, voice group fa group without actually seeing it. I guess, yeah, the reason it's kind of, i guess, somewhat controversial is because it's.
00:23:39
Speaker
I guess the the cost involved and the fact that it is, I think they've changed it now in that you had to follow a set agenda and you couldn't like do two days in one. yeah And I think that they're like, it's a bigger issue around or bigger conversation around access to public places and, you know, not necessarily privatising, but trying to make things more accessible and therefore people have to pay more and rah-rah. So, and I think, yeah, because it was such a long time coming, it had a lot of eyeballs on it. Yeah, yeah. And also the, you know, yeah that we've got to,
00:24:08
Speaker
And the traditional owner kind of involvement and like climbing in the Grand Pins more broadly was very controversial. Like, so I felt like they were kind of a bit unlucky in the sense that like the track had a lot of but People with opinions with which are completely unfounded. like Yeah, and, you know, it was kind of a bit of a perfect storm. there' was a lot happening. So a lot of, like, say, eyeballs were on over time. So I wanted to go with an open mind. yeah I wanted to go. um i can i mean, I can only go in places as myself. I can only go as, you know, Caro, the passionate bushwalker who, you know, I love myself.
00:24:47
Speaker
sleeping on the ground and drinking out of streams. So it's like, well, how am I going to feel about this place that feels it from what I could see on the outside, a little more manicured and a little more curated.
00:24:59
Speaker
So I wanted to see it for myself and it turned out to be an absolute cracker. And I, you know, I now want to go back for a start to do it as a through hike, you know, 13-day stint. And I did it solo, which was really, I mean, like it's not something I would traditionally have promoted is being out alone because, you know, safety and that kind of stuff is a big part of the stuff that I like to talk about. So that's a whole other conversation. But, yeah, being out there alone, didn't see a lot of people. And so I got to the end and, Made some videos of, you know, there's video of each, the north, central and the south section about it. And closer at the end of the south was kind like, because you walk from north to south and was, well, where is everyone, know? Because it was, it's this incredible experience. It's not going to be for everyone. So that central section, there's a couple of days in there, but in many ways it is what it says on the box, you know, it's, and I describe it as, you know, the north section, which the most popular. And I think from an accessibility perspective, from people who maybe are not that used to being in a place like that or camping out overnight. And I met a couple of first times, like mums and daughters out, that kind of thing on that first night in the north. I'm calling that like the Grammy Award winning platinum album full of bangers, you know, you know, that everyone get into copy hits, you know, that middle section, the central, the difficult second album, you know, it's grade five sections. And That is like rock scrambling. That is completely uneven, sometimes unseen part of the terrain.
00:26:44
Speaker
So you need to be able to have a bit of a nav head on. and The South is like the greatest hits. It's what you hear at a wedding. You know, it's an older track and it's just more of sort of a gentle roller coaster. but not that gently, so great. Or moving down into Dunkel. So, yeah, it's it i I cannot recommend it enough. And I think Parks Vic have, they've listened in some ways and they've heard that, you know, the booking system was, you know, it was a little shit. Like any government website is like back in like MS-DOS. I know, right? Wait, let me bring that up on my monochrome green screen. Yeah, so it was inflexible. It didn't have that ability to kind of, create the the experience that you want to have a tailor-made kind of thing so it's still got some ways to go but they're working on it yeah and I think it's always hard to start something new because you never know what people are going to want and adjust it as you go and yeah were you we were chatting about it last night but I know Will's spent a lot of time in the grandpins with family and now that's Anthony's home but
00:27:45
Speaker
It's one of those places that people underestimate. Do you think like in terms of the terrain and the difficulty? because like And the weather too. Yeah. Because what time are you, did you do it? I did it in March. yeah And I, even though, and it was sort of the, towards the end of March. So you're sort of thinking, oh, it's starting to get into autumn. I'm at a little bit of elevation. It should be pretty mild. And yeah, it was mild at night.
00:28:09
Speaker
And then during the day, I had a, there was a forecast of a 36 degree day. There was a total fire ban one day and I woke up and I had a satellite device that gives me like the weather forecast as Olio. So saw, you know, total fire ban, the temperature, that i think it was 36. And I, so I get up and start walking in the dark at about five and I get to the first trailhead and
Volunteering and Community Impact
00:28:31
Speaker
parks through the night, rangers had gone through and put like the signs i on the trailheads and to let people know they're kind of onto it but that weather thing that surprised me because night time there one night it was clearly zero it was super wind and i had windy i had white out clouds i had been this hot day so the whole gamut well gam yeah i think people are unprepared that not i say people in general people who aren't used to if you don't have experience doing that if you're not sure what gear to take because i feel yourself safe yeah if you're heading up into an alpine environment like you know the victorian high country you're like okay i know it can change change on a dime yeah but when you're in the grampians like oh no it doesn't feel like it's that families come to the grandkids and they do their first camp out and our school camps come to the grandkids it must be nice and easy yeah well that's that was where i because i yeah grew up near there and that was my first
00:29:28
Speaker
hiking group hiking experiences yeah who is and um yeah it's still I still love it out there and it's awesome because I hadn't really like the north and the southern section didn't get much airtime yeah so it's nice kind of seeing because there's so much variation between the north and the south oh completely different and that's the other thing I loved is the change of of habitat and how quickly you can move like from you know toppy top tops of the escarpment you know dry hot dry kind of dry sclerophyll kind of forest and then like 10 minutes later you're in montane forest and it's like so quiet you can't hear a bird and the mist was hanging in the air and it was like yeah the diversity and i think
00:30:12
Speaker
I think the key when people say to me, oh tell me about the GPT, tell me about Grampian's Peaks Trail, it's like, it's Grampian Peaks. And you're walking on flat much because it's like oh as soon as you're going down, you're going up again. And it's that for 13 days. yeah so But don't be put up. That's amazing.
00:30:29
Speaker
And it's great as well because it is pretty accessible in the terms of, like, being able to do sections or because I've kind of done almost all of it but in a day at a time, couple of days at a time. Loads of trailheads. And also I guess you somewhat, like, there's pretty good phone service but it is something you could do on your own and kind of not, like, you might not see people but you're not too far from. You're not too far from the two roads. Yeah, Halls Gap or Dunkeld or whatever, Pomona. Yeah.
00:30:57
Speaker
So, yeah, and I think it'll be interesting to see how people go this weekend doing the, because can you imagine doing it all in one go? Well, I actually, when I was out there, I saw one trail runner, a woman come past me once and, you know, we had quick exchange. She was obviously a mission.
00:31:14
Speaker
And it was then i heard about the hunt this weekend. Yeah. um Clearly spoken as a trail shuffler, not a trail runner. I think we're all shufflers. but too sure But yeah, she was pretty epic. And the lovely Lou Clifton, who's out there this weekend. can Good luck, Lou. Giving it a nudge. Hey, Lou. was talking to her about my experience out there too, in terms of the, bities it's really, it's a bit of a, those ankle snappers, just that really uneven kind of terrain. Yeah.
00:31:43
Speaker
Formed track. No. So yeah the trail builders have done an amazing job. That's for sure. Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to seeing how people go out there. um And one other, speaking of, I guess, getting into trouble out in the doors, you're a keen SES volunteer.
00:31:58
Speaker
How long have you been doing that for? Well, too long. I'm showing my age, probably about 20 years. Yeah, yeah. But maybe it's not even that. Maybe it's 15. I can't remember. let's go Let's just go somewhere in the middle. So the organisation has gone through some different changes, but it's now called SES Bush Search and Rescue. Yeah. So it's a specialist unit within the SES. yeah So we don't do tarpaulins and chainsaws and storms. yeah Just missing people. Which is good because i feel like if you're lost in the bush you want those kind you kind of people not people who you know it's like they're great with a tarpaul yeah they'll probably end up getting lost themselves and then we'll be looking for true people instead of just one yeah so i mean standard ses units do land search as well and they are amazing at providing huge amounts of people at a short notice sort of some more generalist terrain that kind of thing whereas we get into the rugged and remote category which is Being fully self-sufficient, our SOPs are like three days of kit and to be self-sufficient. So we could get dropped in by helicopter, need comms back and just look after ourselves. Small teams, yeah fitness tests, have to pass, you know, also just, oh, there's just that sort of the standard training kind of stuff. But there's also this sense that, you know, when you go into pretty, you know, gnarly environments, you want to know that you're with good team players. so You're kind of out there. You might be having an absolutely...
00:33:28
Speaker
shitty time. I think I've already said it once this time. um You can be having a shitty time somewhere in an incredible place, pushing your body through because quite often we we have this term called wombatting down on our hands and knees and just like coming through scrum, looking for signs of of people who are missing. And, you know, if you're with someone who's awesome, as long as you can have a laugh, it's like, hey, I'm here up to mud in here. and i here i've got I've been ripped apart by the bushes yeah and, you know, I've lost a tooth. But, hey, I'm having a laugh or I've burnt my foot. it's I think it's the same in, yeah, when you're out in wild places for a long time, but you've got to be able to laugh at the situation. Absolutely. And...
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, there's or always a bit of honesty and like the, you know. And tears are completely acceptable. I have to say that like when you are like, you know, we've all been at that point where you are physically spent, you have absolutely nothing left in the tank and you're like, okay, I've still got three hours and it's uphill and I've got to get up 800 metres and the car's at the top and it's dark and it's raining and I've got blisters and I am done. But,
00:34:43
Speaker
where do you go inside yourself? Like, where do you find that? Okay, I've just got to, I've just got to show up. I've just got to turn it on and I've got to just get myself up there. So being with the peak kind of people who can do that and then go, okay, it's all right. The eyes are leaking. It's only physical. It'll pass. Give me time. Okay, I'm good now. Let's go. Well, I think it's part of,
00:35:04
Speaker
because it's bringing our whole self oh totally and it's people react to different situations in different ways and I know that when I get hangry like I just am a terrible person to be around would you like a very delicious bacon and egg oh no it's not it's a veggie i I'll be munging into that afterwards and and I know that I just need to like put myself at the back of the pack and just kind of Not be around, you know, yeah, just just go in for a little bit because I'm like, I know I'm being irrational, but this is just just the situation we're in right now. All this shall And because I think as well, like within the trail running scene, volunteering is so essential to keep events and going. Oh, my God. Martins. Yeah, like they just make anyone who's been at an event, like they just prop you up and cheer you on and make these things possible. Yeah. Have some black doctor, some have some jelly snakes, ring that bell. and And I think the next, the kind of extension of that is because I look at things like the SES and the CFA and the RFDS and whatever your version of that is. Like these are huge.
00:36:08
Speaker
They provide a huge service to the community. Yeah. An essential service. Yeah. And like I saw at the moment, friends of the earth are trying to get up a remote area firefighting division. way people in Melbourne can become volunteers with CFA and then get deployed in the case of a, you know, big event up in the high country, for example, because to volunteer with the CFA in Victoria, you've got to live like two minutes from your yeah station, yeah which, you know, a lot of people don't, but they, and especially And smaller populations around those areas that can burn in a in a. So I think like, how do you, how do we, big question, how do we get like,
00:36:47
Speaker
you know, younger people who are fit and healthy and love spending time outdoors and challenging themselves. And the things that you would learn through your your group would be amazing in helping you in your own.
00:36:59
Speaker
Yeah, recreate. Yeah, absolutely. Because I think it is voluntary, but also you're giving a service, but you're getting a lot back, like in return in terms of education and relationships and yeah and i mean it's so interesting like the recruitment piece within any volunteer organization is always it's kind of up there with fundraising you know it's like okay there's the campaigns and active campaigns there's fundraising and then there's this recruitment piece how do we build that groundswell and it's an ongoing problem but i think it's again like trying to find what people's barriers to entry are
00:37:36
Speaker
for connecting with wild places, but that kind of stuff we talked about earlier. But for volunteering, it's like identifying all the things you can get, like what is in it for you? And for some people, it's nothing as...
00:37:48
Speaker
straightforward as, hey, you know, you could join, for instance, our unit, we've got a vertical team. So you get vertically qualified on ropes and that kind of thing for canyons and cliff type vertical access for searching for people. So that it's not necessarily like, hey, here's skill you can It's actually that sense of belonging to a community, I think, is when you talk to people like, why do you volunteer? Not only is it a cause that you believe in, you know, for me,
00:38:15
Speaker
because i want people to connect with places that are special and unique and then want to care for them and look after them. It's that finding each person's trigger and being part of a group of people who feel different maybe they're in it for different reasons, but saying, look, here is a group of people. Here's a community you can belong to.
00:38:35
Speaker
You join because you feel a sense of belonging. You feel a sense of purpose, like for what you guys are doing. It's incredible, you know? And I think it's the same with like, you know, clubs and that's where like a lot of people. Yeah, exactly. And,
00:38:50
Speaker
And I, you know, through uni got in like the outdoors club and this and that because it allowed, because especially as you, like, if you lose, I'm lucky I've got a few like key friends and family who enjoy doing what I do. Yeah. But it can be hard to like, if you don't have people around you that share that same hobby or, you know, then you kind of stop doing it. Yeah. You've got no one to do it with. Whereas if you can connect to a club and find a group of people and before you know it, you've got this whole new group of friends that have that shared experience and, know,
00:39:19
Speaker
you kind of stick around for the people and yeah not so much like the activity is a by-product of that And you might not have anything else in common with those people. And I think some of the people, you know, in my bushwalking club, for instance, or in, yeah, or in in Bush Search and Rescue, I'm going, you know what, I would never meet this person normally in my day-to-day world.
00:39:40
Speaker
They're fascinating. yes And, hey, I can sit around camp with them and learn about they would heal that hear their stories. But, yeah, it to attract volunteers is is always a a challenge, I think, for organisations who need that that volume of people. And, yeah, trail running, i i like that sense of like when I didn't understand trail running from it because I come from bushwalking, And, i you know, you'd see the runners, you'd go, ooh, look at all the Lycra, you know. It's like, oh, wow, look at those long socks. What's that about? with Those tiny little packs and, all their first aid kit with just a Band-Aid and a Panadol. You know, it's like I couldn't understand it. And then worked at the UTA.
00:40:20
Speaker
If anyone's been through checkpoint one, I might have done first aid for you. Sorry about that. Beware of the chair. dop but don't. Interesting. Don't be wearing the chair. But yeah, I finally got it. And that amazing community that's, yeah, I said it before, sense of belonging, sense of a shared purpose.
00:40:39
Speaker
And, you know, the world just can't exist without volunteers. And there is always something that you can contribute and you can do that is connected to a purpose or something that you feel strongly about.
00:40:53
Speaker
um For me, it just happens to be I want, you know, i yes, I care deeply about protecting and looking after wild places, but people and especially people in need, you know, people find themselves and some of the stories that we have, you know, we don't have happy endings
Podcast 'Rescued' and Learning from Experiences
00:41:09
Speaker
often. Mm-hmm.
00:41:11
Speaker
to bring the word closure to families is, you know, it sounds like a cliche. Oh, it was nice to bring closure. So important. Yeah. So to be there and to, even if we don't find a missing person, like we've still got people we've never found that we're always looking for. If we can show the family, look, we stand with you. We are here doing everything we can. We're so sorry we haven't found that. They feel totally helpless. Totally helpless because they're dealing with something they've never dealt with before. It's it's complete crisis and it's not stuff you plan for. You don't learn this stuff at any other time your life than when you have to go through it. Yeah. And um I guess another thing that you've done recently is your Rescued podcast, yes which is a great way to learn more about this and to you chat to some amazing people who are
00:41:55
Speaker
behind the scenes as well and trying to find people and also i think yeah it's interesting to know so if you are on the reverse side of that what what to expect in that kind of scenario because yeah you don't understand I remember when I broke my leg on the top of Mount Bogong. Thankfully it was good weather and a helicopter could get in. But a friend of mine is a GP down at Mount beauty.
00:42:18
Speaker
And she saw my poster on Facebook and commented, Oh, that was you that were getting the SAS ready to come out. And it took 12 people, two days to get me off the mountain. with a broken leg if the helicopter couldn't have gone in.
00:42:31
Speaker
And they were, like, rallying the troops. yeah And I had no idea. Like, I just, you know, but it was an interesting to see, okay, you've, you know, you set off your EPIRB or whatever you call triple zero and you a whole slew of things start to happen happen. And you're just one tiny piece in this enormous puzzle. yeah And it's very, so it's, like, great to know. And we're so lucky to have...
00:42:56
Speaker
that available to us plus you know a good emergency department that take care of you and like so lucky and I was like with the two things that I've had i was like if I was in the states I'd be bankrupt yeah like I couldn't afford to have these injuries that I've had so I'm very grateful that not only do we have amazing places to explore that if something happens to go wrong we have amazing sisters we don't get like it doesn't put us off going back out yes you learn and you adapt but it's not like oh no I can't afford to break my leg yeah and do you know the other thing that's wonderful that happens when you do like if you find yourself in that situation where you have to push the button you have to make the call is straight away and this is also really important if you're with friends or you're in charge of a group like you're a leader in a club or something like that
00:43:46
Speaker
As soon as you push that button, all the decision making for what happens, that weight is taken on your shoulders. You've suddenly got this whole team backing you up who know what to do. We've got processes in place. It's like suddenly you are not alone. yeah yeah Suddenly have this cheer squad cheering you on that you may never meet. Most of them, you know, who are going, yeah, no, this is fine. This is this is why we're training. This is why we want to get out there.
00:44:09
Speaker
The Rescue Podcast is something that I'm super happy to do. And it's stories with people who've been rescued. So maybe I might have to have a chat with you one day. But also the people who you don't know behind the scenes. So there's some doozies coming up.
00:44:23
Speaker
The latest one is, think it's episode six. So it's not far into it. don't expect an episode every week because it's something you've got other things to do i'm trying to fit in between um there's another episode coming like it's coming hopefully in the next few days but the most recent one is with amsa so australian maritime safety authority who sees the button when you push it it lights up on a screen in canberra so what then happens so we talk through all the different types of beacons and peel yeah i found that really helpful because i'm in the market for one and trying to decide what the right yeah because like all devices for what you want to use it for and understanding the process what happens yeah yeah it's fascinating but there's lots of good stories out there so maybe if you're watching this and you've had an experience happen to you or someone in your party and you think and it's it's all about learning the lessons from stories and like i said at the beginning your stories is how we learn and it's to help people not make
00:45:20
Speaker
those same mistakes or to put themselves in a position, you know, or to even give them some info that might help them if they find themselves in a position, like what to do, what worked for you. After I broke my leg, we reached out to MSR, Mountain Safety Collective. That's their sticker just there that to help a lot of people in the backcountry space. And they gave us the advice to, because I was with my cousin and his partner, for all of us to write an account of what happened. Yeah. Yeah.
00:45:44
Speaker
And it was so interesting. Like mine was completely different to theirs because everyone had their own experience of what was going on. And it was so interesting in terms of, well, lucky that there was three of us. Yeah. Like, cause it meant that I got taken off in a helicopter, but they could get out together. Whereas if there was just two,
00:46:02
Speaker
and kind of what we do differently and I think in any kind of scenario it's always good to do a bit of an analysis afterwards to be like what would I do differently even if it's you go out for a trail run and you run out of water or something it's like well next time I'm going to have a spare gel and just a spare flask in my backpack in case I need. Do know the other really cool thing about writing a story down is is two things not only the lessons learned but there's something that happens to people that's not talked about a lot, which i'm looking I'm diving into in future episodes, which is about the, it's like a form of PTSD.
00:46:36
Speaker
When you've gone through a traumatic experience in the bush, I had one story about who broke a leg alone in a canyon in Spain. And it's like, it's actually like the bone heals, but there's this other stuff that you don't realize you've gone through and how you deal with that kind of trauma. Um,
00:46:52
Speaker
And in different perspectives. So this new episode that's going to come soon is buried alive in a snow cave. And it's the first episode I had two people on at the same time. So the guy who was in the snow cave.
00:47:04
Speaker
And his buddy who was sleeping out in Omega Mid in the snow in the blizzard and didn't hear a thing. So it's and their two perspectives is really, really interesting. Yeah, because often it's the person who's injured. They're like almost their story is less interesting than the person trying to save them because like you're you're kind of helpless. You're just sitting there and it's everyone else who's like,
00:47:25
Speaker
working crazily around you to try and help you. Your way, and I think, and I guess my biggest takeaway for people on both sides of story is to consider the agency of the person who's who's going through this trauma. And actually for those who are, who are if you're in that situation as a helper, you're also yeah suffering trauma because you might be seeing your friend who's just poured boiling water yeah on their foot or something like that. And you have to deal with it. So um But, think you know, there's nothing worse, I think, from a... Actually, that's a big call. There is something worse. But um if you found yourself in a situation where you are, you know, the patient and there's all this activity happening around you and it's like they're having little conversations. So it's like, guys, I'm here. can still hear you.
00:48:12
Speaker
And if you could actually talk with me like I'm a person and I'm here because... So you can have your say in the situation. Have your say in the situation. And then, you know, sometimes it just has to be, you know, diplomatically dealt with. But to have, to feel like you have a voice yeah when you've got a voice and is really important. Yeah. Totally. Like when I broke my leg, i was in one of those sled things. yeah And Tim and Margot were like, let's take you inside the hut. And I was like, you two trying to carry me through two doorways is going to be excruciating,
00:48:44
Speaker
for me and for you. And i was like na just like as i were talking about I was like, no, no, just leave me here. I'm fine. I know you think that's what's best for me, but I know that it'll be so awful. And you trying to carry me is hard at the best of times. But yeah, you can also still make somewhat okay to, you know, advocate for yourself.
Storytelling and Social Media's Influence
00:49:03
Speaker
Time has flown and we haven't given anyone a chance to ask a question. So we've got one minute left. Do we have any questions? I've seen lots of like nodding and a few giggles out there.
00:49:15
Speaker
Yeah, I have a million questions. and Thanks so much, Cara. It's just been fascinating ah hearing the convo and thanks, Hill, for the chat.
00:49:27
Speaker
um My greatest pleasure. dason We could do this all day, quite literally. As long as we can eat avocado roll. I'm a bit jealous of that.
00:49:37
Speaker
Yeah, I do have a bunch, but I might just be a bit selfish and ask about something I'm keen to hear about personally. You've just inspired me thinking about the thought of getting back to maps and compasses. I cannot fathom going out without my phone because I have no sense of direction.
00:49:56
Speaker
And I'm still relatively new to trail running and kind of my experience is changing in that when I first started, it was all about just getting from here to somewhere beautiful. And the trail, yeah I didn't really even think about what I was running through, but that's all changing now to a pre, and I used to want to do everything fast because that's kind of what you think you should do. Anyway, that's all changing. And, but the thought, and i and I have a compass, but only because it's mandatory gear. I've never used it. I can't remember what it looks like. So many people would be the same. It makes me laugh. Every time I see a trail running, you know, mandatory list, I go, why why do you make all these people carry this, you know, 30 grams of weight or however much a compass weighs when nobody knows how to use it? And you can't, there's not really much point using a compass without a map. Yeah. You can't, you know, maybe you can do some, a few things, but. Yeah, not much. of this yeah No, that's cool. Yeah, I mean, out in the pillager, I got lost at least three times, but it was fine because we had the apps on the phone and I could realise that I was lost and then go, oh, crap, and backtrack. But anyway, sorry, my question is the thought of getting into it is a bit daunting.
00:51:03
Speaker
And I think I've got it tied up in my head that compasses and maps are for these epic, you know, 10 day, 20 day things. But like, it obviously is possible to get in kind of entry level, but like, can you even get maps anymore? And like what, and we could follow this up offline if it was too involved, but what might I do just to get stuck into like a, you know, an entry level basic experience with. Wouldn't that be just the way? Thanks, Chris. So yeah, i I did, it was my COVID project actually to write a book, How to Navigate, the art of traditional map and compass navigation in an Australian context. And I go into things like even how to get maps these days, because, you know, we all hear that maps are becoming all digitized and that kind of thing. And so there is a resource in there.
00:51:48
Speaker
Yes, I do also teach navigation. So I've got an intro to now of course that I run semi-regularly in the Blue Mountains. And there's going to be actually just in the throes of trying to put together a course in Tassie, actually in Corinna, based at Corinna in the Tarkine. So that'll be sort of March next year, I think. And South Queensland, sometimes in winter next year as well. But yeah, getting a hold of maps is tricky. So it depends, but the best thing to do, I don't know where you're based, but you can, each state is different. So it is the New South Wales. New South Wales.
00:52:24
Speaker
So great because we have this amazing website, six maps, SIXX. If you just Google six with a double X maps, New South Wales or eTopo, it'll come up for free. We can download topos, high quality, the government topos in Australia for free through the government spatial services department. And I think it's five a day you can download for the full map.
00:52:48
Speaker
And obviously we don't have these massive A0 printers in our house. So you can take that map file, email it to Officeworks or whatever, and get it printed out. or you can print the section you want that you're going to be walking on that day onto A4 and just, you know, match the scale.
00:53:06
Speaker
200% because you don't want to change the scale that we're imprinting it. Yeah, I kind of go through that in the book as well. So, yeah, I think a book is one thing and it's a start. And I tried to make it really simple and sort of stepped through, taking people with absolutely no knowledge, like no assumption at all. And I think there's actually what I'm fascinated with is,
00:53:26
Speaker
that this sense that to actually get to know how to use a compass and a map, that it is some sort of dark art, so that it's some kind of like, you know, turning lead to gold kind of thing. It's actually not. And there's this or like I used to think, oh, it was it's kind of gender issue too. I think for a lot of women, it's like, oh, it's Boy Scout thing and, oh, you know, it's something that women might struggle with. But it's actually... Like when you know the basics and, you know, there's, I've got some little, you know, acronyms that you can remember to know how to use the steps you use to use a compass. It's actually not rocket science, you know, it's not brain surgery.
00:54:04
Speaker
And if anyone tries to act like it is, and they've got some secret that you don't know, it's actually, yeah, it's like, learning to bake a cake, like learn the steps in the recipe and it can work.
00:54:15
Speaker
Yeah. So I hope that was helpful. no that's brilliant. Thank you. For you, I know that if you go like a lot of the outdoor shops in Hobart have the West and Arthur's ones, but you can also go on the state, the Tassie equivalent, which is tasmap.gov.au.
00:54:29
Speaker
And that's where you can actually choose a square and then download the map for that, as opposed to getting one for just like the Western Arthurs, which is what they'd have it like there. But you can probably get them online at like Mountain Creek Outdoors or whatever the Tassie, you know, kind of outdoor shops are.
00:54:44
Speaker
How did you get into writing as I've seen on your IG bio? And do you have any advice to people who want to write, but aren't always sure of what topic to select and what magazine slash publisher to send it to? Yeah. question now Really good question.
00:54:56
Speaker
How did I get into it? It's actually, I called out an Australian magazine who kept putting images on the cover that showed the little woman being helped up a rock by her...
00:55:08
Speaker
Male. her Male partner with a larger pack because she only carried a day pack. So I just called out the editor on social media in a friendly way. Like, hey, how about like, I don't get this image. I don't walk with anyone like that. And sometimes I'm the one helping the guys up the rock. I don't get this. It doesn't feel true.
00:55:29
Speaker
And I went, okay, I guess for me, because my day job and my background is as a TV producer director, I'd always been writing, writing for TV, writing for video.
00:55:40
Speaker
And so that kind of step wasn't a huge stretch from writing scripts to writing non-fictional accounts of stories. I think firstly, write about where your interests are and even just reaching out to editors and ask them for their submission guidelines because they'll all have guidelines. Like for instance, Wild Magazine, you can just say, hey, what are your submission guidelines? You might even find them on their websites. And that will tell you really in detail a lot of things. I guess my biggest advice or just comment about writing for especially the outdoors press in Australia is that or even any as any travel writers, like when you look at their average annual earnings, writers who are writing a lot are lucky to earn $30,000 year.
00:56:23
Speaker
And when you consider that the outdoors press in Australia probably pays about somewhere like 30 cents a word where it used to be, you know, but if you're right to say outside magazine in the US, it's going to be a US $1 a word. Government organisations in Australia, you're more likely to be around that 80 cents to a dollar a word.
00:56:42
Speaker
So, yeah, it's got to be a bit of ah a love on the side for the art and the joy of writing stories. But that would be my tip. Yeah, submission guidelines and read the magazines that you know that you want to write for. And so you can pitch really well and you can pitch with like a three paragraph pitch, short paragraphs, say, hey, I want to write a story about this. It would go in your magazine in this section because it shows the editor that you understand that you understand the audience. Don't pitch something for a magazine that's not for their audience that's not right. So, yeah, I hope that was helpful, Elle.
00:57:15
Speaker
I think as well, like, trail runner mag is, like, often i know that, like, it seems like there's lots of people, like, they're inundated with content, but they're kind of not. And I think as well trying to get different voices and especially female voices and talking about, for example, like, training for a 100-miler, but then the kind of,
00:57:36
Speaker
I guess you've got to be somewhat vulnerable in terms of talking about like the, you know, injury or different, like the kind of things that you've dealt with along the way that are very personal to you. But then I'm sure a lot of other people that will resonate with them as well. so There's a bit of a, like it shits me how often like masculine the outdoors can be in terms of like conquering and, you know, trying to, it's all about speed and like,
00:57:59
Speaker
the amount of distance and it's like trying to just break that down as well and be like no most people are just out there to like enjoy themselves and push themselves and have a good time and spend time with people that they enjoy spending time with in places that are fun because they're online there's kind of no limit as to it's not like they've got a magazine to fill they've got they can have as much content as they want. So, cause I'm heading off on the Franklin tomorrow. And I said to Tim who works there, i was like, oh, can I write an article about this? And he was like, yeah, how about this framing? Cause we've already had someone who's done like an account of just what the experience is, but maybe you can do it from a activism kind of perspective. I was like, perfect. Cause yeah, I won't be able to pay off my rent with it, but there's there's something else in it.
00:58:45
Speaker
When I did my tax return last year, the guy was like, my accountant was like, you have a lot of expenses for someone with not a very big income. And I was like, I know, because I spend all my money on adventures that I then write about or for Wild Places related. So therefore, I could at least claim back on it. So yeah, don't quit your job. Sorry for the reality check. No.
00:59:04
Speaker
Well, we better let you go, Caro. Well, first we're going to eat our rolls and then Caro's going to go jump on a plane back to Sydney. But thank you all for joining us. If you're tuning in on YouTube, thank you. Thank you to SmartWool. Have you ever, you're a SmartWool fan? Do you know, I came across SmartWool, I've just come back from the States and came across them there and was like, ooh, aren't smart? Yes. So they sponsor our trail chats, which is going fantastic. So they make it possible and we're very thankful to them. smart one And I've only got a pair of their socks so far, but so far I'm very happy with my Smartwool socks. I've packed them for the Franklin. Nice. And yeah, thanks for everyone for joining us Enjoy the weekend. I'm sure it's Halls Gap is absolutely popping at the moment, Anthe. Enjoy the crowds and the stoke and all of the tired bodies to get out there with your cowbell and have a great weekend and we'll see you in a month's time. Thanks.
00:59:56
Speaker
And now we're going to jump forward two years to November 2025 to hear what insights Caro has gained on storytelling, social media and safety in the great outdoors. Thanks so much for joining us again, Caro. It's been almost two years since we were both down in Nippaluna Hobart together. It was our only in-person chat and I'm very sad that we can't be in person today. But we're about to kick off for the first Adventure Story Slam. We've had another one since, which I think was the last time that we saw each other.
01:00:26
Speaker
And you hosted the Adventure Story Slam at Explorer Fest and you are somewhat a connoisseur of stories. For you, what are the main ingredients to create a compelling and engaged adventure story?
01:00:40
Speaker
I think it's ah something a little bit about, you know, remember your school teacher and they'd say whenever you're writing an essay, you've got to have a beginning, a middle and an end. So I think, you know, thinking about those elements are pretty key. And I think the other one is draw us in. Give us a reason to listen. Give us a reason to... feel invested in the characters that you're telling this story about. Make them relatable, like there's something about the characters that go, oh my God, that could be me or I've seen myself or or felt in that situation before.
01:01:08
Speaker
And a little bit of mystery never goes astray, a little bit of tension in the story I think is a good thing. So that leave us hanging and will they, won't they, what's going to happen, um i think that's always a good one. And a little bit of a twist and a surprise at the end I think is something a little bit of a, it's a nice payback on the story. You kind of feel like, well, I actually, I gave this person, you know, five minutes of my time or three minutes or however long, seven minutes, whatever your story slam is. And then it's like, ah, yes, it was worth the investment of my time because the reward and the payoff of that that conclusion, that end of the story is a good one.
01:01:45
Speaker
Certainly I'm terrible at starting a story and then realizing halfway through that it's not, doesn't have that mystery or that intrigue and everyone's eyes are just starting to glaze over. And then you quickly wrap it up and try and exit without getting too embarrassed, but there is a definite art to it. And I guess the adventure story slam is such a good format for that because it forces all of us to actually think about how we do tell a story rather than just getting up there. But yeah,
01:02:10
Speaker
I guess with the rise of social media, storytelling has somewhat been rebranded as content creation. How has your relationship with social media evolved in the years since you've started lots of fresh air and I guess your attitude to storytelling in the modern digital era?
01:02:27
Speaker
Oh, my goodness. That is such a good question. i feel like asking you, like, how long have we got? Because um yeah, I'm going to be completely honest and vulnerable and say, you know, my relationship with social media has good days and bad days. It has good seasons and bad seasons. And when I say bad, for me, that's when I have found myself falling down the the scrolling labyrinth, the slippery slope. It's like falling down a slippery rock and not being able to stop yourself and not realize you're falling until you look down and realize you actually didn't have a harness on and you're And you're not attached in any way to the point that i bought a product, I bought it about eight months ago called Brick. And it is a physical device that is attached by magnet on my fridge. So I can set up schedules to brick my phone. kind of turning it into an old brick phone, really. And it kind of was there to force me. and And what it does is because I've got these schedules set up in it and times of day, if I start going down the slippery slope, this brick will cut in
01:03:41
Speaker
to the scrolling, the doom scrolling and stop me because it's suddenly, you know, you go, oh, right, yes, it is. It's 8 o'clock in the morning. i've I've been scrolling for half an hour during coffee and breakfast and I've really got to stop now and go for a walk. So having that physical thing has been a help for me.
01:03:59
Speaker
But connecting it back to story As we were starting to talk, I was thinking how, you know, story is what holds traditionally cultures together. It's how we learn. It's how we grow. It's how we connect with our community. We connect with the people that we we meet, the people that we live near, the people that we recreate with, you know, all the people in our lives, the people at the bank, the person at the fruit shop. The thing that the big trend in social media
01:04:30
Speaker
and thinking about how I now work within that space in the work that I do, it's kind of shocking to realise that the power of telling stories is now being forced into these, not, you know, at a 10-minute short doco, not if not an eight-minute short doco or a three-minute video. So I've come out of video production and TV production, you know That's my background. So in 2000, I was a producer and we were making three-minute stories for for lifestyle television, three four-minute. And that was sort of for years and even within you know corporate video, which is now, like you said, called content, ah three minutes was kind of the the benchmark. um And it's just got shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter. And this thing with social media now
01:05:14
Speaker
is that the thing is you have to hook someone within three seconds and that the highest performing reels are the reels on on Insta and Facey and whatever, TikTok, that are five seconds.
01:05:26
Speaker
And I've just been listening to ah um some sort of professional development around social media and some of these trends. And the shockiest thing is that this woman who's an expert at the hook, she said, you know, the hook is, you know, used to be get someone in that three seconds. She said, I think it's now actually about 1.5.
01:05:44
Speaker
And you know what we've done in this beautiful thing that is story, which is our human connection with people and our human connection, our our ability to learn, is we've shrunken that real estate that we have to tell that story down into this period of time that is so much shorter And i mean, there's so much research being done and being done around how that's actually affecting and changing our brains.
01:06:15
Speaker
And I just, you know, when I think about wild places, I'm drawn to some of the research and the work around ah nature play for children and how that sort of burgeoning field ah of nature play, getting kids into the bush to free play. So there's no sort of set things. There's no set equipment. It's using the equipment is, you know, the rocks and the trees and the leaves and those things around you. But some of the research that shows that kids entering you know preschool these days, things like their attention spans are so much shorter, you know their ability to even be able to walk on uneven ground,
01:06:56
Speaker
is so much reduced compared to times gone by. And I i've sort of got a little bit on a tangent there, but like I said, how long have you got? My relationship to social media now is I feel really torn and it's a challenge because I've got these messages that I really want to get out there, which is about that connecting people to beautiful wild places in meaningful ways. But if marketing and storytelling and communication communication is all about being able to connect with people the audience and understand the audience where they're at, meet them on the places that they already are rather than try and drag them into some new format. That means if that audience is hearing stories in three second bites or in 1.5 second hooks, what does that mean to us as communicators? What does that mean to us as storytellers if we're trying to reach these audiences?
01:07:47
Speaker
You know, and I think that's a, like, it's, yeah, yeah It just makes me go lie because it it it fries my brain a little bit and it makes me think when we sit in a wild place. I just did a a bird language retreat a few weeks ago up in the Barrington Tops when we did these sit spots every day and for over an hour, like maybe an hour, hour and a half, just sit there.
01:08:11
Speaker
Try not to move, maybe with your binoculars, but you're just sitting there. You can't see anyone else, but you're in the bush and you're just listening and using all of your senses. And you're allowing that period of time, that, you know, 90 minutes or whatever it was, it sort of goes in a heartbeat. I actually had to shut my eyes because there was so much sensory overload in the bush.
01:08:36
Speaker
You know, you're swiping on a phone super fast and you're seeing all this stuff, but actually how much are you taking in? Whereas I went into the bush where I thought would be quiet, but there was so much. And it was, so again, that was yet another tangent. Yeah. from me, Hilary. I'm sorry about that. But yeah, that that that ability to sit and be still and to listen and to take in in time, allowing time to just sit and be is something that you know social media is stealing from us.
01:09:07
Speaker
And I don't have a good answer. One thing I have heard recently is that, you know, with this move towards ai or not even towards this over the cliff into AI and whatever and however that looks, that there is going to be a backlash because there's so much that just has that the uncanny valley vibe about it that is something's not quite right.
01:09:31
Speaker
that there will be a backlash towards in-person connections, real storytelling, real moments of, you know, flesh and blood. And I just don't know when that backlash will come and if it will come fast enough and if it will come in a way that's actually that we need as ah as a society. Oh, I went there deep and dark straight away there, Hilary. Sorry.
Tourism and Environmental Impact
01:09:55
Speaker
No, well, it is. That's the problem. It's a complicated question and it's a complicated world. And I feel like we're somewhat lucky in that we knew ah an age before social media, so we can go back to that and feel comfortable in that. But for younger people who don't know any different,
01:10:12
Speaker
They're going into the unknown if they do stop scrolling or go outside and sit in the bush or like you said, just exist in in the bush, whereas that's how we grew up and we can kind of, that's our default state. So returning to it isn't completely immobilizing in terms of our fear into the unknown, but it's Yeah, I feel like we need to have another conversation over this at some point because it's one of those things as well. Like it is the world we live in and if you want to talk to people, you need to meet them where they're at. And unfortunately, three-second videos is where a lot of people are. And I think the world needs more people like you who are trying to pull them out of that kaleidoscope of information and into a reality. But
01:10:54
Speaker
If you're not there putting out content that appeals to that, well, they're never going to know you exist as well. So yeah it is tricky. It is tricky. I mean, a classic example is at the moment, oh, you know, it's been going on for a few years, but, you know, you've got those social media accounts that are really about trying to just for the gram, you know, the 10 best waterfalls in, you know, the Blue Mountains or the 14 best bushwalks in the Southern Highlands. So you've got these or the the inside secrets to this, you know, And for the gram, it's like it's drawing people in who don't have the experience or the the fitness necessarily to get to these places. So, but it's got that hook, you know, it's got that really smart, clever marketing behind it. It's got a really clever production values, all this kind of stuff. And it's like, wow, I mean, I can't.
01:11:42
Speaker
as a producer, you know, coming from those backgrounds. But, ah you know, I can't keep up with that. I hope that there are people who can connect to those audiences who are firing out all that kind of content and get the good messages out there to get people to look after themselves, look after these precious places because an old 53-year-old fart like me can't do it.
01:12:04
Speaker
But you'll keep trying. I'll keep trying. It's the reality. It's true. It's absolutely true. In our last conversation, we spoke a bit about the common fears that people have when they're going out into wild places, like especially over summer, for example, snakes or getting lost. But thanks to our old friends, social media, like you've just said, more and more people are seeing these amazing places and wanting to get out there and explore them for themselves.
01:12:29
Speaker
Lured by you know, somewhat altered Instagram photos. You get there and you're like, hang on, the water isn't as blue as it looks or that. You know, it's not quite all as it seems, but especially with you being in the Blue Mountains, what impact is this, I guess, rise of social media tourism, for lack of a better term, having on our places and also importantly, the communities that do call those places home and understand the threats and the the risks of being out in these places, especially over the summer months.
01:12:57
Speaker
Yeah, another great question from Hilary McAllister. Yeah, locally, there are, I mean, there's two places at the moment that come to mind, which are, you know, have been labelled as, you know, infinity pools or, you know, that kind of thing. One of them, us locals, we call the poo pool, because it is actually flows, that the sewerage used to flow right through there. And there's, if you look closely at the photos, you'll see that there's actually not rock on one side of that that pool, it's actually concrete, because yeah, the pipe is right there um and used to have like brown foam flowing through. Anyway, back on the challenge for the locals, the other place that I won't talk too much about except to say that it's actually in declared wilderness area. So that's the area within a national park that's got the highest level of protection, you know, in terms of the rules around the policies of how we should behave and what we can do in these places.
01:13:55
Speaker
And, you know, it was put out there on social maybe three years ago, something like that. And the change in the landscape um in terms of multiple foot tracks that have been appearing, because it was kind of like ah a bit of a slightly off track. There was a bit of a foot pad if you knew where it was, but it was it was a place where canyons would go. So that's unfortunately been getting a lot of love.
01:14:19
Speaker
from a lot of people, which I get because, you know, they're drawn to these places. It's like we all are, you know, and the word gatekeeping comes up and it's not about gatekeeping because we keep it secret. It's just like, how do you, how do we deal with this disconnect between the amount of people who want to visit these places and are drawn to them just like you and me, but don't have that sort of the apprenticeship to know how to care for it or to care for themselves. And So there was this really interesting work when we think about the tourism side of things, if we think about regenerative tourism as opposed to sustainable tourism. So sustainable is, that I think the two words are pretty obvious how they're different and regenerative is about leaving a place better than when you visited. And there's a woman in Flinders Island, Diane, I'll find her name and come back in a second, but
01:15:11
Speaker
She just spoke at a conference I was at and it's all about regenerative tourism and the work on this amazing project that they did on Flinders Island over the last few years to actually talk to the locals and a lot of it was about that communication and the engaging and the locals, so they don't even like to call them visitors or tourists, it's guests.
01:15:30
Speaker
And even that word guest, like it creates this whole different mindset when you, you know, walk into someone else's space that they call home. You think of when someone comes as a guest to dinner in your house, it's like the same way that they and how you'd hope they behave at dinner would be how, you know, we should, as people who move around the planet into different places, how we should be approaching it you know do we bring a gift do we you know leave something with the place that's actually of benefit to the place rather than either leaving our rubbish or leaving our you know all the bad stuff we could leave behind there's a great website it's called islanderway.co and that takes you to the website and the different projects that the whole island together have put together And Diane Dredge, yeah, so she worked on this project and she's an academic kind of approach towards regenerative tourism. So, yeah I really encourage people to look up her stuff, read some of the work that she's done and to look at the projects that they're doing on Flinders Island I think there's a lot that... all of us can learn, not just people who visit other places as guests, but anyone who lives in an area that does attract a high volume of visitors could be some places to go and look for some insights and hopefully a yeah a brighter future.
01:16:50
Speaker
That sounds fantastic. We'll pop a link in the show notes and I'll definitely dive in because I feel like like many things, sustainable's kind of moved on as a relevant term. We know that we need to be a lot more than sustainable and Regenerative sounds like a much, I don't know, nicer, more caring path forward.
01:17:09
Speaker
Yeah, a gentler way. We're all involved. Yeah, a gentler way rather than what can we get out of it. And when I say giving back, it's not like I shudder at stuff like volunteerism.
01:17:20
Speaker
you know Thankfully, we've moved on a lot from that as well. But yeah, it feels like just touching the the tip of the iceberg on this stuff. So hopefully there'll be a lot more good stuff to come from it.
01:17:30
Speaker
Fantastic. And I feel like an excellent excuse to visit Flinders Island as well. Well, funny you say that. I am actually going there in April. So yeah um I'm doing a NAV course there in April. Part of that course is we're going to engage with some of those local projects and some of them are some really interesting recycling projects at the islands because, you know, you're an island as we all are on one. Yeah. Yeah, looking at some of that stuff too.
Balancing Leisure and Work Outdoors
01:17:59
Speaker
So watch this space.
01:18:00
Speaker
I was just going to ask, actually, like you've recently released the third edition of your fantastic resource, How to Navigate. And as you said, you host multi-day courses teaching people the the fundamentals of navigation. We did it in December last year and it was fantastic. But how do you find the balance between spending time outdoors for leisure and then also for work and trying to navigate a path between the two so you enjoy both equally but then individually as well?
01:18:30
Speaker
again, putting my vulnerability hat on here. um Sometimes not very well. Yeah, sometimes I don't manage it very well. And it became clear to me about a month ago, i went back to a place that was very, you know, a place dear to my heart in Kanangara, Kanangarboid Wilderness. And the person I was with, it was just me and and one other person and um they wanted to do the navigation. It was a four-day trip. They wanted to do the navigation.
01:19:00
Speaker
purely map and compass and screen free for four days. was like, oh, yeah, because, you know, this the particular route that we were trying to attempt was is one that was damaged in the fires quite badly and the scrub is really bad. And the word that's getting out is, oh, if you follow the GPX, then, hey, it's not great, but, you know, you're still only doing 2Ks an hour through the scrub, the thick scrub.
01:19:22
Speaker
But, hey, you know, if you stick on that, you're all right. But that's sort of sticking your face in a phone for a couple of days and that wasn't the experience we wanted. And I went out there thinking this was my first time back, to this place that had been like a my bushwalking home, a kind of a place that I was apprenticed a lot. And it was also a place where I had an experience many years ago that actually pushed me towards learning to navigate because I found myself in ah a very small group and I was one very small voice in a group where I felt that the navigation decisions that were being made were outside of my power
01:20:01
Speaker
And, you know, I felt put us in quite a dangerous position at one point. And I just remember that feeling that lack of agency around not having the skills at the time. And i went, that's something I don't ever want to find myself in that situation again. So I'm going to go and get myself skilled up.
01:20:17
Speaker
So that never happens to me. And that's kind of what put me on that wanting to to teach navigation skills pathway. So, but that four days out there back again to the place that was such home to me and to go in um sort of a nod with my friend who was doing all the nav and going screen free. I said, okay, well, I'm going to be out here and I'm not here to create content. You know, I'm not here to take photos and video So I've put up a few little photos and a couple of reels or something, I think, but it was not the purpose of being out there. So it wasn't the labor of being there. So it was just being there for the place itself and letting the place speak to me and
01:20:59
Speaker
feel like it was home again was really powerful and I hadn't been back there since pre-fire so 2019 but it also was showing to me how much I need this more because I do work in the bush as a navigation teacher or or if I'm out there with search and rescue or whatever it is that you know trying to get these messages out to encourage people to connect to the bush but feeling that I'm doing a bit of a shit job at it myself and is a ah real point to me. so excitingly, I've got, I think this weekend, going back out with a bunch of dear mates to a place in the mountains I call the Doctor. It's off track. It's in a beautiful spot and it's watch the sun go down, watch the birds, listen to the birds soaring over the valley and just restore yourself and where you need to be.
01:21:46
Speaker
um so going to see the good Doctor and then off to the Snowys over Christmas and New Year. So that'll be That'll be good too. And that's with my bushwalking club. So to be able to give back to them and I'm going to teach now for them when I'm down there, which will be great. So I need to do more of it. So like having a brick on my phone to stop me scrolling, i need to also have like, you know, a big brick that says, actually, when was the last time you got out in the bush just for you, like outside of the work that you do?
01:22:12
Speaker
I think it's
Summer Outdoor Tips and Reflections
01:22:13
Speaker
important for all of us who spend time and work and especially, I mean, guides. I've got friends who are, a lot of friends who are, who are guides and because they're out there doing that guiding role so much, looking after other people, they forget that actually their own adventures in the bush is the stuff that really fills the soul.
01:22:32
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Another really long-winded answer for you. Yeah. No, well, I've put these questions together to, you know, make sure you do all the heavy lifting, Caro. So i appreciate you going down all the nooks and crannies of these. I guess we're going to wrap it up shortly, but we're heading into summer and you are, I feel like, a connoisseur of the outdoors. You've done a little bit of everything, been pretty much everywhere. But as we head into the summer months, it is activity season, excitingly. a lot of people heading out hiking, day walks, whatever it might be.
01:23:04
Speaker
but we all, myself included, you know, often consider ourselves competent hikers, but then we've all been guilty of, you know, forgetting something or not packing stuff. essential kit, but what are your kind of two to three top tips that you might use yourself or that you've heard along the way that really stand out to you as key things to keep in mind before you head out on hopefully a fun adventure?
01:23:30
Speaker
First of all, I'm always staggered that people see summer as the time to get out there and do some heavy lifting bushwalks because honestly, like it was what, three weeks ago. So it was end of October that I went out to Kanangara and it was 27 day in the day. And like, it was hot carrying packs up hills and So yeah, the first one of that I would say is to pack your smarts and your smarts by that. Be a good, fair judge of your own skills and abilities. Like if you're feeling a bit sketchy or you don't think you're really up to a grade five hike on the Australian walking track grading system, don't do it. Just pull back. There's no prizes for being a hero. so yeah, pack your smarts, which is being able to judge yourself, your own abilities and your own fitness and your own knowledge of knowing what to take and what to pack. In terms of packing, I'd say check your first aid kit because when was the last time you did? You know, you might have used all your Panadol, you might have used all your Band-Aids and, you know, making sure you've got a good snake bandage and you know how to use it. So that's part of packing your smarts is to be well trained, you know, get that first aid certificate or your wilderness first aid or remote area first aid, even better. Get those courses under your belt.
01:24:47
Speaker
And, yeah, third one, third top tip for summer Choose your location wisely based on the temperature and the conditions. So summer is a great time to be looking at even getting into canyoning. you know If you've not canyoned before or you don't have people who are really qualified and able to take you and teach you, team up with ah to a company who will take you and show you the ropes. You could even do a canyoning course.
01:25:15
Speaker
Because it's shady and beautiful and lush and rainforest-y and you see the most amazing things in a canyon. It's such a hidden world. Or, you know, creek walks, beautiful creek walks. Coastal stuff is great. um Looking for places that have got shades rather than stuff that's hot. high and exposed like slogging along a fire trail. So you certainly wouldn't want to do the six foot track in the middle of summer.
01:25:37
Speaker
Look for some of those lovely shady coastal walks, like the beautiful light to light, for instance, could be great for summer. And yeah, that's probably my right top tips, except, oh, my latest gear tip is if anyone's got one of those Thermalite sleeping bag liners that you kind of think you use in winter to put inside your sleeping bag to add a few degrees of warmth,
01:25:59
Speaker
My hot tip for summer is you actually use it as a sheet and put your sleeping mat inside it and you pull the drawstring to hold it over your sleeping mat like a sheet. So when you're just wanting to lie on top of your mat naked in your tent at night or with your undies on, however you sleep, it's up to you. You don't have that skin, bare skin, bare sweaty hot skin against a plasticky mat. It's on the top of the sleep sheet, which is, you know, your sleeping bag liner.
01:26:28
Speaker
Such a simple tip because i when I'm car camping, i often take like a single bed doing a cover to put over my sleeping mat because, yeah, there's nothing worse than like sticky. Sticky. You know? Sweaty, dirty. You want cotton and, you know, you just want light fabrics. But even like, yeah, your liner, that's a great practical tip.
01:26:46
Speaker
Straight over your sleeping mat. And, yeah, that drawstring keeps it nice and tight over the mat. There you I'll leave you with that one. So good, Caro, worth every cent of this free advice that you're giving us. That's free advice. Anytime, anytime, Hilary. It is a pleasure and a joy. ive got to say it's a lot more relaxed to be chatting with you than, you know, those intense sort of radio interviews where they, you know, the audience you never know what the audience is, you know, going to be coming their background from or what they're wanting and so you just sort of garble on and this I can just feel I can be, you know,
01:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, we're not into three minute or even 30 second grabs here. It's more about the long form. So we'll keep the long form going while we can. But appreciate
Closing Remarks and Engagement
01:27:27
Speaker
you taking the time, Caro, and hope you feel better soon. You said you've got a bit of a lurgy at the moment. So rest up and all the best down in Lutruita next week for your Wilderness First Aid course.
01:27:38
Speaker
Thank you so much, Hilary. It's great to chat with you. And that's the finish line of our 13th trail chat. Thank you, Caro, for generously sharing your experiences and insights and for being such a steadfast beacon of morality and the often turbulent space of online outdoors content and contributors.
01:27:57
Speaker
If you'd like to join Caro on one of her NAV courses, get a copy of her book or just see some of the amazing places she explores, you can follow Caro at Lots of Fresh Air, that's L-O-T-S-A, fresh air, all one word, or on our website, lotsoffreshaire.com.
01:28:12
Speaker
If you'd like to hear more from us at For Wild Places, please follow us online at For Wild Places, subscribe to our newsletter or become a member. We'd also love to hear your thoughts on what you're hearing right now and our annual listener survey.
01:28:25
Speaker
Head to the link in the show notes to complete the short survey and go in the draw to win a fractal cap. Thank you again for joining us, folks. As always, we are stoked to have you here. Thank you, Caro, for taking the time, to Lara Hamilton for our theme music, and to Nico for editing this episode.
01:28:39
Speaker
Until next time, happy trails. And as always, thank you for taking the time for Wild Places.