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Unpacking Narcissism - The Original Douchebag | #45 image

Unpacking Narcissism - The Original Douchebag | #45

E30 · Multifaceted Masculinity
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67 Plays3 years ago

True Narcissists are douchebags! Well, they can be. Narcissism in relationships, Narcissism in the Church or other organizational leadership - it seems to be a hot topic lately and many are still trying to understand it. It tends to creep into even the most beautiful of environments and stifle initially benevolent intentions. In today's episode, Josh and Seth unpack Narcissism and its close proximity to our worlds and how it can negatively influence, control, limit and block a healthy reality or paradigm for where we’re at.  

In this episode you'll learn:

  • Basic characteristics of narcissism and how it develops
  • True healthy masculinity vs. toxic narcissistic masculinity
  • Narcissistic tendencies vs. being a narcissist 
  • What Narcissists need to survive
  • How to address your Narcissistic tendencies
  • The Empowerment Dynamic - Victim vs. Creator
Quotes

 

“The church environment, in my opinion, is a breeding ground for narcissism because of the whole service mentality.” - Josh

 

“Narcissism finds its safety in controlling” - Josh

 

“You can’t open your heart up and not be empathetic. Plant Medicine allows for you to be empathetic” - Seth

 

“They could be a complete asshole and you can still love them but that does not mean you’re supposed to stay in that relationship. Love is not always enough.” - Seth

 

[Looks like Nadya didn’t do quotes yet for this episode, so I didn’t think to listen for quotes, but I kind of remember some things we talked about, so maybe the above will work.]

Links

Host Name: Josh Cearbaugh

https://joshcearbaugh.com 

https://www.instagram.com/jcearbaugh/ 

https://facebook.com/joshcearbaugh 

https://www.jumpstartyourlife.com 

Links

Host Name: Seth Conner

https://sethconner.com

https://www.instagram.com/sethaconner/

https://www.facebook.com/iSethConner/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethaconner/

Companies, Products & Places Mentioned

Mushroom Doctor (psilocybin micro-dosing)
www.MushroomDoctor.co/shop

The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic) (https://www.amazon.com/POWER-TED-EMPOWERMENT-DYNAMIC-Anniversary/dp/0996871802)

Default Mode Network (https://psychedelicstoday.com/2020/02/04/psychedelics-and-the-default-mode-network/)

Recommended
Transcript

Introduction to Sensitive Topics

00:00:00
Speaker
there is a chance that today's episode might offend you. And the reason I give you that warning is because unpacking narcissism, we end up talking about the Me Too movement. We end up talking about cheer leadership. We end up talking about toxic masculinity. We kind of go into some areas that people, let's just say, have an opinion or a strong opinion about one or the other.

Narcissism's Impact on Society

00:00:25
Speaker
But really our intent is to identify the areas that narcissism has clouded what is a beautiful thing, whether that is me to whether that is the church or even masculinity. How has narcissism crept in and stifled the healthy aspects or dynamics of those specific areas that we end up talking about so.
00:00:47
Speaker
I ask that you be patient when you listen and not take the first sentence that we say in some topic but let us unpack it and really dive into the ways in the areas that narcissism can influence negatively influence control limit and block our ability to connect to a healthy paradigm or a healthy reality.

Encouragement for Listeners

00:01:09
Speaker
As always, if you haven't subscribed already, I ask that you do that and even share with a friend. Our heart is for these episodes to get out and just to stir conversation. If it's with us or if it's between you and your friends, if it's provoking conversation, then
00:01:27
Speaker
It's doing its job. So subscribe, leave a comment, leave feedback if you haven't already. But in the meantime, we'll dive into how narcissism, the original douchebag has infiltrated so many areas of our society today.

Understanding Masculinity

00:01:41
Speaker
Men, we are not simple, chest-thumping, rock-smashing, fire-starting barbarians. We have depth. We intensely feel. We are scared, yet brave. We love to have fun. We're imperfect and make mistakes. We're compassionate and loving. We are multifaceted. Let's explore the reality of masculinity together.

Challenge to Narcissists

00:02:10
Speaker
Today's conversation, there is a good chance if you're a narcissist, you will be offended by the end of it. So you have been warned. If your wife or your girlfriend is sending you this episode to listen to, I would highly encourage you to pause and go ahead and listen to it anyways and save your offense for later because it may be
00:02:32
Speaker
that it's time for you to grow up a little bit and take a hard look at yourself and see whether or not maybe you have some narcissistic tendencies. I think one of the biggest ones is not feeling like you are one when in reality you actually are. So let's start by diving into Seth. What would you say is a narcissist?
00:03:01
Speaker
a complete and utter douchebag. The end, that's all we got. The end. Oh man, well, that's probably unfair and too oversimplified. Yeah.

Recognition of Narcissism

00:03:17
Speaker
But yeah, I would, I mean, you know, narcissism is kind of this like in the last 10 years has really been identified as a disorder or, you know, people are just, they're,
00:03:29
Speaker
calling it out, you know? And so there's been a lot of, I don't know, study on it, I'm sure, and people talking about it inside therapy sessions and stuff. But I think it's just, it is somebody who thinks the world revolves around them. They're very entitled. They have a high
00:03:49
Speaker
sense of grandiosity and self-importance. They feel like everybody is there to worship them or to take care of their needs or to move when they need something and certainly a lack of empathy as well.
00:04:09
Speaker
I think that less identifiable is just their sense of lack of identity and emptiness and boredom and, you know, just kind of a child trapped in a adult body.

Critique on Women's Empowerment

00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, this happens to be one of those episodes where I feel I'm feeling a little bit spunky, apparently, because I actually think that there's also a lot of narcissism in the women power movement that's come in the last 10 years.
00:04:39
Speaker
And let me say, give me a chance to explain that before all you women start commenting that I'm the douchebag, is I actually think that there is a natural pendulum swing when you've been oppressed or suppressed or shut down for a long period of time that the pendulum does swing to feeling empowered, to having a voice,
00:05:09
Speaker
to having a sense of value where it goes from being suppressed and then that pendulum drops and swings to the other side into narcissism and where there is that sense of entitlement or it's your power is at the expense of something or someone else. And that's what I mean by a lot of the women power movement. If anyone knows me, I am all for women.
00:05:36
Speaker
love to champion them. I value highly their input in my life. I have spiritual mothers in my life, you know, all of that. I'm not saying that the movement itself has not been good, but I think there is an aspect of it that has swung into narcissism where it's caused a lot of confusion for men.

Men's Reaction to Empowerment

00:05:54
Speaker
So what's happened is in response to it, one of two things has happened.
00:06:00
Speaker
One, men are feeling either hurt or betrayed or shut down. And so their pendulum swings from, you know, the narcissist or afraid of being the narcissist into the victim. And then they're completely shut down, which we're going to get into in a second. Or they say they completely dismiss the valid points of the women's movement and latch onto and embrace this narcissistic
00:06:28
Speaker
identity of just saying, well, it's all bullshit. It doesn't matter. And I matter. And women need to bow down to me and submit to me. And so do other men, extreme alpha males. When we say the original douchebag, I think it's the actual reality of toxic masculinity.
00:06:49
Speaker
Right. It's the it's the jock that sleeps with all the cheerleaders that doesn't care about anybody else and feels like he's way more important than he actually is. And life revolves around him, etc. Yeah, I I think it's something that goes back. I think I think it's something we're taught.
00:07:07
Speaker
you know, I it's narcissism has no bias of gender, just like you said, it could be male or female. And I believe that it's probably taught. And again, I'm just going to disclaimer. We are not experts in this field. We have no credentials in the field of narcissism or, you know, so so see.
00:07:27
Speaker
psychology, sociology, things of that nature. But based off of the data that we've read and the research that we've seen and the studies that are done is that it's something taught by somebody in our, you know, for men, it could have been their mom. Their mom was a narcissist and now that translates to me as that women. I can't trust them and I'm going to adopt this nature and I'm going to have to be selfish and survive and run over people
00:07:56
Speaker
And it could be flipped the other way. It could be women who had fathers who were very narcissistic. It could have been men who looked at their dad who was a narcissist and said, this is the way to survive. But the studies that I've looked at, it's typically for men, their mom, quote unquote, wears the pants in the relationship and runs all over dad.
00:08:18
Speaker
And so maybe they're looking at that going, well, I don't want to be that. So I'm going to step up and it looks like mom has all the power. I'm going to have to learn to take all the power as well.

Role of Plant Medicine

00:08:30
Speaker
So I guess the question I have is, Josh, are you are you a narcissist? Absolutely. Yeah, I proudly wear that that badge, that title. No, I think that
00:08:43
Speaker
working with plant medicine definitely helps you not be a narcissist, which will constantly be interwoven into our conversation. But I mean, practically, scientifically, we've touched on it before, but it restricts that blood flow to the default mode network, which is normally where our ego lies. And I think that's where most of our narcissistic tendencies
00:09:07
Speaker
Can be found is in our ego self protective mechanisms and in unhealthy ways of approaching life or relationship or just humanity in in general and so I know for me whether it was sitting in ayahuasca or doing deep experiences with psilocybin you know you
00:09:26
Speaker
you realize how insignificant you are and how small you are in the scope of the universe, in the scope of just life in general, and then also how connected you are. And so I think plant medicine in general really helps if you're willing to walk down that path and really pursue it.
00:09:45
Speaker
It's a scary thing because it requires you to let go of control, which I think narcissism finds its safety in controlling. And so when you have to let go of control, that's step one of the evolution of working with it. But then once you're in those experiences,
00:10:08
Speaker
It does. It exposes your humanity. It broadens your consciousness. It shows you how connected. I can't tell you how many clients I've talked to, friends I've talked to, people I've heard from that come out of a psychedelic experience going, man, we're all so connected.
00:10:26
Speaker
And once you have that perspective shift and that change, it really does help dumb down those narcissistic tendencies. Again, not at the expense of you are valuable, you are important, you are unique.
00:10:41
Speaker
You have something, like everyone has something to offer this world. All of that's not thrown out or thrown away, but the unhealthy side of it where the entitlement, the people are less than me or basically propping myself up at the expense of others really gets confronted at its core. Yeah. And you, I think one thing that the plant medicine obviously does too is it opens our heart.
00:11:09
Speaker
And you can't have your heart open and not be empathetic. Yeah. And I think that's one significant character trait that is missing with narcissism is that they either choose or don't have the ability to be empathetic. And so you can't work with the plan of medicine and not be empathetic.

Defining Healthy Masculinity

00:11:28
Speaker
And maybe it's a transition of like, oh my goodness, my heart is open. I actually care about this person in front of me.
00:11:37
Speaker
you immediately turn the the lens away from yourself which it's you know as a narcissist it's always on you and you point towards somebody else it's nearly impossible to then continue with that narcissistic uh nature um but i think that what's great about this particular topic is that
00:11:59
Speaker
at least traditionally narcissism before we knew what it was, probably masqueraded as this masculinity, but was very, very toxic. It wasn't the masculinity that we talk about today, which is strength in servitude or empathy, gentleness, kindness, reserve strength, self-awareness, things like that that you just don't find in the narcissistic nature.
00:12:29
Speaker
Yeah. And I think an important point to bring with that as far as healthy masculinity is concerned is there is still room to have everything that you just listed and that inner warrior, that inner badass, that is willing to embrace the emotion of anger, that is willing to fight for the things that he believes in.
00:12:52
Speaker
Again, it's not at the expense of bulldozing those around him. It's more of protecting those around him and actually cultivating a safe place for the people in his life by being willing to exert that strength. I think having that unique balance between the inner strength as well as the empathy, the compassion, the kindness,
00:13:20
Speaker
Toxic masculinity says only focus on this one side of things and bulldoze everybody who gets in the way and throw out the empathy, throw out the compassion, throw out having your heart open. Don't care about others.
00:13:37
Speaker
and only embrace this quote-unquote badass where that healthy masculinity is walking the line of, no, I'm going to unapologetically be a badass and be strong and be a warrior and speak my mind and have strength, but I'm going to do that at the same time of being connected to my heart, of extending empathy and compassion for myself and for those around me
00:14:05
Speaker
for having grace for myself or for other people's process in their journey or their mess or whatever it may be.

Consequences of Narcissism

00:14:13
Speaker
Narcissism says, throw that out, get rid of it, doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is you. And really, ultimately, at least I don't know about you, but for me,
00:14:23
Speaker
people that I've seen that are narcissistic, they may actually be able to accomplish a lot in the business world or they may be able to achieve their goals, but most of them that I know end up in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s alone.
00:14:41
Speaker
and isolated or bitter towards the world because they've essentially had a self-fulfilling prophecy of either everybody's out to get them or they built everything and it's not anyone else that's helped them, whether that be people or God or the universe. It's all on them. You've heard the stories over and over again of people that make great wealth and then they go, oh, this is it. This is all there is.
00:15:11
Speaker
because it ultimately ends to an empty place. Yeah. And it's interesting when you talk about true masculinity and what that looks like, because I guess on some level, especially like when you're in the military, I mean, we're both veterans. And while we were in, we saw and we probably, you know, embody this a lot as well as like we have to put on this exterior badass, you know, to prove that we are strong
00:15:39
Speaker
capable men. And in reality, most of us are just scared little boys that have just been placed into the military and learning how to fight. But if we look at maybe our primitive ancestors,
00:15:55
Speaker
The men, their badass masculinity would come out very rarely and it was one to either fight and kill and bring food, you know, a hunt and bring food into the village or to run away. Like if there was danger and they would have to save, you know, family or themselves. Other than that,
00:16:20
Speaker
men were typically kind of in this place of teaching and caring for and having apprentices within the village. And so to shift into this now culture or society where we constantly have to prove that we're a badass, it's just a kind of a perverse or confusing masculinity that
00:16:44
Speaker
that probably has warped into this narcissistic thing, which is really kind of just probably survival. We're scared. We don't know who we are. No one's spoken truth into our lives and let us know, spoken strength, like, hey, you have strength, you are strong, you have value, and giving them identity.
00:17:03
Speaker
And maybe it comes from this emasculation that we could maybe talk about in regards to the church or even just society in general over the last 50 years is, hey, just be quiet, sit down, that your masculinity is too much.

Masculine Self-worth Issues

00:17:18
Speaker
Put it in a corner and be more kind and be more soft. And really, it's emasculated men to where they don't know who they are. And then you've got these
00:17:29
Speaker
these men who kind of like overextend themselves or the pendulum swings to the other side. And now that's this fake or toxic masculinity. So I guess that's a few thoughts on my end. I don't mean to preach too much, but yeah, that's I mean, that's why I asked you if you're a narcissist because I know you're not.
00:17:49
Speaker
you know, and I know that based off of who your parents were, that it'd be nearly impossible for you to be a narcissist, but everyone, in my opinion, probably has narcissistic tendencies from one time or another, at some point, you know, it doesn't mean you're a narcissist.

Relationships and Narcissism

00:18:05
Speaker
But we all have a desire or a need to control or manipulate people or situations when we're afraid and we're in a place of fear. We default to trying to control that because we don't like the uncomfortable feelings that we have. And so we become kind of selfish, self-absorbed in that moment. And we have a tendency to look like a narcissist, but that doesn't mean we're a narcissist.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, and I always say that, you know, a great evolution of identifying how narcissistic you actually are, you know, if you're single and you think that you're not selfish, get into a relationship, right? And then if you're in a relationship and you think you're not selfish, get married. And then if you're married and you think you're not selfish, have kids, right? And each one of those evolutions exposes, I know it has for me,
00:19:00
Speaker
of just going, man, I want what I want. And it's hard to intentionally lay down what you want or to not be selfish. And again, there's obviously the unhealthy side of that where you don't have needs, they come in secondary to everybody else at your own expense. We're not talking about that, right? We're talking about the narcissism side. And so just in the sense of having those tendencies in the area of being selfish,
00:19:30
Speaker
Evolve your relationship or watch it evolve and watch it, if you're being honest with yourself, expose how selfish by nature I think we all are to a degree. And it's really those that are willing to, one, take a hard look at the reality of it. Two, I will continue to beat the drum of having people in your life that know you well enough to call you on it.
00:19:54
Speaker
But three have the heart posture to be able to hear it to hear that feedback And to be open to it doesn't mean that you know, somebody's going to misread a situation or Speak out of turn or maybe they don't have the relational equity to be able to call you on something Etc. But if you just shut out the other voices, I think that's probably
00:20:16
Speaker
In my opinion, one of the biggest indicators that you are leaning towards a narcissistic tendency or a toxic masculinity side of things where you are just not open to honest feedback or you don't have, you can't list one or two or three or five guys that you can go, oh yeah, well he calls me on my shit. I can't fake and say that I'm good
00:20:40
Speaker
and let that fly indefinitely when my life spiraling out of control or whatever it may be, to have those people that one, know you well enough and two are willing to call you on it, but then you have to have the heart posture to be able to be open to the feedback and then course correct and actually adjust and take that input in and realize the areas that you need to take ownership and maybe lay down some of your pride. Yeah, you're not going to find a narcissist that'll let you do that.
00:21:09
Speaker
they're gonna think that you're attacking them and that you're wrong and they're right, that's just not gonna happen. And maybe that's a good indication of who a narcissist is. Yeah. I mean, can you identify any, just looking back and you had narcissists in your world that you were like, looking back, you're like, oh man, that guy.
00:21:28
Speaker
or that girl, I mean, not to be biased. Well, I mean, if we're gonna be honest about it, I think, I thought you were one when I first met you. So, you know, I mean, there's that side. That's good. You need to expand on that a little bit.
00:21:43
Speaker
Share a little bit more on

Narcissism in Church Leadership

00:21:44
Speaker
that. Oh just you know it was it was the whole We talked about it And if you didn't listen to our first season of episode two when we met each other we didn't like each other for a variety of reasons I think one it just exposed you know areas that we we
00:22:05
Speaker
in relationship showed things to each other that we didn't like about ourselves. And so for me, I said before, I thought you were a smooth talking car salesman. And in that, what I mean by that, and if you're a car salesman, I mean, my brother sells cars, it's the cheesy car salesman that's manipulative and controlling, et cetera. That's who I'm talking about.
00:22:31
Speaker
But just in the sense of always having an answer, always having a really smooth response to any kind of feedback that sort of kind of acknowledges it, but doesn't really, it's still dismissive at the same time.
00:22:46
Speaker
and especially within church, it was I think a huge red flag of a narcissist. I'm not saying this is necessarily you or was you. It may have been sometimes, but I think it was me sometimes too, but it was the person who had a problem and then God fixed it the night before you have the conversation every time.
00:23:10
Speaker
Or you know went to a conference and then had this revelation and realization and then now it's no longer an issue But that's and i'm not saying that people can't have that but a narcissist within the church has is only using quote unquote god's voice and
00:23:29
Speaker
is essentially God is the scapegoat for their narcissism because they're always able to go, oh, yeah, well, I used to deal with this, but now I don't anymore. And yet they're still dealing with it over and over again, one day, one week, one month, one year later.
00:23:44
Speaker
And so it's not actually resolved because they're not confronting it. They're just putting a band-aid over, you know, heart surgery and not actually looking at the reality of it. And because, going back to you, like when we were in a men's group where we were supposed to be sharing vulnerably and opening our heart and all that kind of stuff.
00:24:01
Speaker
And you had some of that, not necessarily, I don't distinctly remember, you know, God fixed this last night thing, but it was sort of like that in the sense of, oh, well, you know, we would give feedback to each other and you could always weasel your way through acknowledging and yet dismissing at the same time.
00:24:22
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I just thought you were an arrogant asshole. I didn't know what narcissism was. Neither of us knew what narcissism was back then. But I think we were both looking at each other going, God, what a prick. Arrogance. If you want to find a narcissist quick, and I don't want to beat up the church too bad, but you could find them all over
00:24:51
Speaker
all over any real organization where there's power. You can take an inventory of church leadership if you'd like. I'll say it. You don't need to. Yeah. Good. Make sure the notes show Josh. Josh is the one that said it first. No, but seriously, narcissism is very rampant in the church and really any organization, like even like gurus in Eastern philosophy or Eastern religions.
00:25:18
Speaker
You know, it is this need to be worshipped. It is this need to feel important and that everybody is looking to you for the answers and it fills that part of your identity that's empty and you absorb that energy and that power from people. But at the same time, you're empty inside. It doesn't actually do anything for your self worth. It's just that attention need met in that moment. And so like going back to you and I,
00:25:46
Speaker
I was I didn't want you or others in the group to to think that I was messed up in that moment. Right. So, oh, it was it was it was already fixed. So thank you for your feedback. But I'm still as good as you or better, you know. And so it wasn't OK to be vulnerable, to be broken, to be in a place of healing. But I do remember like having opportunities to be in sort of church leadership.
00:26:15
Speaker
And thank God that I wasn't because I did not have the capacity to do it. I would have turned into probably a narcissistic prick just because I didn't know who I was. I didn't have any identity yet. Yeah, I just didn't have any self-worth. There was too much self-criticism, self-hatred there that I would have been filled up by what other people thought of me or by the facade that I put out there that I'm amazing. I can do this and that and there is a reason why you're looking to me for the answers kind of thing.
00:26:45
Speaker
So I I had a handful of clients that were worship leaders and They were narcissist.

Manipulative Tactics of Narcissists

00:26:53
Speaker
I mean it just plain and simple, you know because here they were the one person that was leading everybody into an experience and Essentially they were owed
00:27:05
Speaker
I don't think any one of them consciously knew it or was maliciously trying to manipulate people, but they were being fed off of the response that people gave them. Oh, you have such a great voice. You have such a great gift. Can I serve you? How can I serve you?
00:27:26
Speaker
you know, all of that, which again, there's healthy and unhealthy aspects of that. I don't think that there's, you know, anything wrong with wanting to align yourself with someone that you respect and build relationship with them. But the church environment, in my opinion,
00:27:43
Speaker
is a breeding ground for narcissism because of the whole service mentality, right? Which is basically, I have gotten insight from God in some form or fashion that makes me better than or further down the road than you. And I'm your spiritual mentor, spiritual father, spiritual mother, whatever it may be. And your gateway to those experiences is through
00:28:08
Speaker
um basically feeding my narcissism and you can't ask questions you can't challenge me because i'm quote unquote leadership right so you're not leadership i'm leadership and so i'm this on there's an untouchable realm that i that you can't access or confront or challenge and if you do you're stepping out of alignment right and and then you need to get back in line essentially yeah i you know i think about when narcissism first came on my radar
00:28:36
Speaker
I had no idea what it was. And it came from the ex-wife in our marriage where she just called me a narcissist. And I'm like...
00:28:49
Speaker
What the heck is a narcissist? I don't want to be a narcissist. So I'm going to go seek help to try to remove this narcissist possibility. And I think that, for those that are listening, that's kind of clue number one. A narcissist will not ever admit they're a narcissist. They'll deny the whole thing. And most of the time, if you have
00:29:09
Speaker
if you've heard any discussion about narcissism, you'll hear the term gaslighting, right? And so they will immediately turn it around on the other person. You're this way, the victim or the codependent role in the relationship, they're saying, you do this and it's going over my boundaries. And they go, they immediately turn it around on you and say, no, you do that, you do that, da, da, da, da, da. And they're gaslighting.
00:29:36
Speaker
which essentially is just turning the blame onto the other person. And so I think the first, when I began to start looking into it, I was like, okay, I don't want to be this person. How do I address the manipulation control tendencies that I might have inside this relationship? And very quickly realized, okay, I'm not a narcissist.
00:29:57
Speaker
But if I'm humble and honest, I do have narcissistic tendencies. And I think to go back to what you were just saying about the church is that if you feel like you have all the answers, if you're not teachable or correctable, then you have a lack of humility.

Dynamics in Narcissistic Relationships

00:30:12
Speaker
And I think one of the main turning points for me is when I came to a realization that I don't know shit. Like that became my mantra. Like everything that I thought I knew to be truth
00:30:28
Speaker
could eventually or could possibly not be true, but I am acting like I have the answers and I've done that multiple times, especially in the church. And so when it came to the realization that, hey, I don't actually, I don't know shit. Then I entered into a very humble place where I could be teachable. I'm open. There's no judgment. And these are all characteristics that are void.
00:30:52
Speaker
of the narcissist. I think you touched on an important thing. We don't spend too much time because right now we're talking about narcissism specifically, but in order for
00:31:06
Speaker
Someone who is a narcissist who, I don't want to use the word thrive, but to be fed, they need to find a victim, right? They need to find someone who is willing to feed their narcissism
00:31:22
Speaker
And the thing is, working with clients, a narcissist, when they find a victim that essentially worships the ground that they walk on and will do anything for them, they love it. That relationship is euphoric and it's amazing because finally somebody is willing to serve and just give of themselves. And if I say jump, they say how high and all of that. But
00:31:48
Speaker
Ultimately, that relationship falls apart because that victim eventually reaches a point where they aren't validated, that they aren't lifted up in the same way. So then the finger pointing and the blaming starts to happen. And then if the victim happens to be at a place where they start working on themselves and then start confronting the narcissism within the relationship,
00:32:14
Speaker
Ultimately, it normally leads to that relationship blowing up in some form or fashion, but a narcissist loves to find a victim because then it validates them. It's like, oh yeah, especially, I don't know about you, but in rebound relationships, if a narcissist breaks up with somebody, normally that rebound relationship that they find
00:32:40
Speaker
is going to be someone who very strongly walks in a victim mentality or has that victim mindset because it's like, oh man, finally, all of these things that I care about for myself and that I'm entitled to and that matter to me,
00:32:57
Speaker
They're validating it. They're just saying yes and amen to all of it. And that feels so good. And for people that I know that have worked through narcissism and actually confronted it and started to get healing from the drivers of it,
00:33:12
Speaker
looking back, you know, they realize I actually don't want a victim in my life. I want I want to be strong, but I want someone else that's strong with me alongside me. And it may be a temporary. It's kind of like, you know, getting high or getting drunk or whatever it may be. It may be a temporary feel good in the moment. But that next morning, if you drink too much, you're going to feel it. And it's never ultimately what you want. And it's always a temporal thing.
00:33:43
Speaker
I mean, I've never seen a narcissist in a relationship with another narcissist. I don't think I've ever even heard of that before just because it doesn't allow for it. There always has to be in these certain situations a giver and a taker. And we talked about codependency in a previous episode and just kind of what that looks like.
00:34:07
Speaker
But it's very similar to what we see in the leadership in the church going back to that is that I need you to validate what I'm saying and what I'm doing and that codependent person or that one that looks they are the victim. They're being victimized by the narcissist because the narcissist is constantly running over their boundaries.
00:34:27
Speaker
Uh, they, they are feeling like, okay, as long as I can keep this narcissist happy or this person happy, then I'm okay. Right. If you're okay, I'm okay. But I've got a, a really good friend who, um, she recently got out of a.
00:34:42
Speaker
a very awful narcissistic relationship. And it was, I mean, it was devastating. He had done a number on her and she got out and she's now like an advocate for what, I mean, she would say domestic violence, domestic abuse. She wrote a whole book about it and speaks on multiple podcasts and is just speaking out so that people become more aware of that.
00:35:07
Speaker
The nature of their relationship was that she was doing everything around the house. Like she kept it clean. I mean, she also had a job, right? She had a business. She was running, but she's the only one taking care of the house. She's the one that's entertaining his friends when they come over and getting them what they need. And he over here on the other on the other hand is.
00:35:27
Speaker
is being very elusive, hiding. Hiding is a big one. Yeah. And doing drugs that she didn't, she wasn't aware of, sleeping around with other people. It's like that constant need for validation as a narcissist. And
00:35:45
Speaker
And just having somebody there to essentially not only validate, but just kind of clean up after them, you know, to take care of them, to give them, take care of their, their basic needs kind of thing. But there's no value for that person. They do not care about that person. But if that codependent victim tries to leave,
00:36:05
Speaker
Then it's like love bombs. They go to the extreme. I will do this, I will do that. Buying jewelry, taking them on trips. It lives in the extreme spectrum.
00:36:20
Speaker
It's very, it's very strange. And I'm sure people listening are like, Oh man, I've seen that before, or I've experienced that before, you know? Or I think they go one of two ways, right? Which is the love bomb, right? I'm going to do really extravagant things to try to win you back. Or they actually play the victim mode.
00:36:40
Speaker
So they respond depending on where the relationship is. But a lot of times when a victim starts to have a voice or start to set boundaries or they start to get healing and realize, hey, what's going on is not okay.
00:36:55
Speaker
and they start to confront that, then the narcissist switches gears and it's the whole gaslighting where they actually play the victim role. They embrace the victim for when the victim asks for something small, a simple boundary.
00:37:14
Speaker
Um, whatever that may be, then all of a sudden that simple ask becomes a huge ask for the narcissist and they can't believe it or they, you know, they try to shut it down by playing that victim role and saying, you know, I can't believe that you're doing this to me, you know, that you are.
00:37:33
Speaker
that you're leaving me or that you're saying I have to get counseling or that you're doing this to me and they fall into that victim role long enough to get back into control and for the victim to then fall back into their role and then they can go back into that unhealthy status quo of narcissism. So I think that's just another thing to be aware of is they may try to love bomb and go, you're beautiful, you're amazing, I can't live without you, please don't leave or
00:38:03
Speaker
they'll switch gears to the finger pointing and the victim. Both of them are manipulative in order to get you back into a place of that victim role to keep the relationship feeding, essentially feeding their narcissism. Yeah, and I was just thinking about it because we were talking about this earlier. And on the previous podcast, we were talking about codependency relationship. You can have a codependent relationship without narcissist.
00:38:29
Speaker
but in any narcissist relationship, it is codependent. Like each person depends on the other person to fulfill that role. Cause you would not find a
00:38:41
Speaker
An independent functioning person in that kind of relationship like they would be out Like well you cross the boundary and you keep doing it. You're gone. Yeah, you would not find a healthy Person that knows who they are that has self-worth stay in that sort of situation. So it must mean that
00:39:00
Speaker
you've got two people that I guess in my opinion that are both victims playing different roles within this dynamic you know that we talked about the the empowerment dynamic yeah and for those that don't know what that what we're talking about it's the the ted triangle or the empowerment dynamic uh which we'll put a we'll put a link in the in the show notes but
00:39:29
Speaker
the the

Addressing Narcissistic Relationships

00:39:30
Speaker
premise is is that you've got inside the victim orientation three roles and one of them is the victim the other one is a is a persecutor and the other one is a rescuer and this is like a game of of uh musical chairs where like you were just expressing the the narcissist can become the victim very easily and look at the codependent person
00:39:51
Speaker
the person that's not the narcissist as the persecutor. Like, oh, you're coming against me. And now they need someone to rescue them. And that may not be, that may be a person. Like, oh, they run to family. Maybe they run to some sort of addictive substance. Maybe they just, they, you know, medicate on TV or food or shopping or whatever it might be to rescue themselves from that uncomfortable emotion
00:40:16
Speaker
that the persecutor is creating in them. But yeah, I mean, the narcissist could be a victim too. They can fit, they can sit in that chair. Yeah. So if someone is either in it, let's, let's start with somebody who's in a relationship with a narcissist.
00:40:34
Speaker
What do they do? Well, first you gotta figure out that you're in that position. You know, like become self-aware. Yeah. Look at the characteristics. See how that person makes you feel. Does anybody else treat you that way? Do your friends treat you that way? You know, is this somebody that, you know, cause here's the thing, you could love that person. They could be a complete asshole and you can still love them, but that does not mean you're supposed to stay in that relationship. Love is not always enough.
00:41:04
Speaker
And some people stay in those relationships because I love him. I love him or I love her. And they stay in these unhealthy relationships when they're not being respected, they're not being cared for, and their boundaries are constantly violated. So look at your, first of all, do you know your boundaries? What is okay with you? Is it okay that he stays out all hours of the night and doesn't let you know? Probably not.
00:41:31
Speaker
I think an important point on that is that
00:41:38
Speaker
And I don't want to speak for you, so push back on this if it's not accurate. But in the sense of not staying in the relationship, I think it's not staying in the relationship that it currently is. It's important to at least give people the opportunity to change. And a narcissist, they may or may not be at a place in their life where they want change or that they want to change or they're willing to change.
00:42:03
Speaker
but I think if you are realizing or you're listening to this conversation, you're going, oh shit, that is, yep, that's me. Oh man, that's, wait a minute, that's narcissism? Wait a minute, what? That it doesn't mean that, okay, next week you need to go end that relationship, but you do need to end the relationship as it is right now and begin to change that status quo. And really what you're doing by doing that is you're inviting them into something that is different
00:42:31
Speaker
And ultimately, they have to choose if they want to join you in that invitation. Yeah, I would take that even a step further and I would say yes. However, if you are in a relationship where there is abuse, physical, sexual, emotional abuse, then
00:42:56
Speaker
get out of that. You are worth more than to try to fix, and it's not your job to fix the relationship at all. That's not your job. It's the job of both people, if they're both willing. But if there's any sort of abuse, then you need to remove yourself from that situation, which is oftentimes the hardest thing to do. Okay, because that then indicates like, okay, I'm gonna be alone. If I can't have this person, I can't have anybody better.
00:43:25
Speaker
So there's a perspective shift, a paradigm shift that needs to happen. But if there's abuse, get out. Now, if maybe it's a low functioning or low level type of narcissism that you're seeing, don't necessarily jump ship if you feel like, hey, I can exercise, I can voice some boundaries and give that person the opportunity
00:43:47
Speaker
to rise up, to step up, but only if there's none abuse. If it's more of just a boundary thing, like I said before, they're staying out at all hours of the night, they're not letting you know. That's a simple one. Hey, it's not okay for me that you behave this way. So can we work something out? I need communication, I need to know. And if they're unwilling, then hey,
00:44:13
Speaker
There's your answer. Why would you want to be in a relationship where you're not valued and what you have as a boundary or your needs are not valued by that other person? Why be in a relationship

Encouragement for Change

00:44:25
Speaker
with them? Yeah, yep. And if you're listening to this and you are maybe disagreeing with some of it, but realizing, you know what? Some of these narcissistic things that we're talking about
00:44:41
Speaker
I do. I don't even necessarily agree that it's a bad or wrong thing, but I do find myself doing them, then it may be time for you to hit pause on your justifications and really take a hard look. I think anybody can change. They have to want to. They have to do the work. It's not easy.
00:45:05
Speaker
All of that is true, but I think anybody has the capacity to change that is willing to invest the intentionality and the effort into making that change happen in their life. And so if you hear this, one, I can confidently say that I'm not judging or accusing you of anything at all. I think we all, like we said, we have those tendencies.
00:45:27
Speaker
But if this is resonating or challenging you in certain ways, then I would encourage you to hit pause and maybe find one or two or three people that you share this episode with and just say, hey, listen to this and give me feedback. What do you think? Do you see me as the victim? Do you see me as the narcissist? Where do I fit into this? And I would just encourage you to become curious instead of offended.
00:45:56
Speaker
And I think that pursuing growth with curiosity instead of offense or fear or regret is one of the best motivators that you can use or one of the easiest tools to switch your internal dialogue into something that actually moves you forward rather than keeps you trapped in the cycle internally of where you are at now.
00:46:20
Speaker
We're just scratching the surface of narcissism in general, but hopefully if you find yourself in kind of that victim role, again, what Seth said, I can't agree with more, if there is abuse, get out. But if you're just in an unhealthy dynamic within a relationship,
00:46:37
Speaker
challenge it, get out of the relationship that currently is, and begin to do the work on yourself. Because the other side of it is, in order for a narcissist to thrive, they need the victim to be the victim. So why have you been the victim for so long, however long that is? And begin to let that other person not be the scapegoat for your hardship, but actually be a motivator for you to take a hard look at yourself, regardless of where you fall on either side of the spectrum,
00:47:03
Speaker
and really begin to do the work internally, that hard work to change your internal paradigm, which then ripples into changing your external paradigm in the sense of the relationships that you find yourself in.