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169: Egypt Crimes
45 Plays6 days ago
Hope this finds you well, and also before we begin:
Massive Trigger Warning For Sexual Assault
So, this week's focus is true crime in Egypt. Kelsey talks us through the murders of a complicated predator, Karim Salim. which is rough enough.
Then, Alanna walks us through some hard truths about the safety of simply being women protesters in Egypt. Just fighting for their rights puts many women in danger of sexual harassment and assault. Can we fight the crowds of predators and win? We hope so.
Please listen with care and always feel feel to reach out to those you love (even us), or helplines if you feel in danger. We love you all and help is here if you need it.
Darkcast Network Promo of the week: Scottish Murders
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts' Background
00:00:00
Speaker
Darkcast Network. Indie Pods with the Dark Side.
00:00:26
Speaker
You are listening to Castles and Cryptids, where the castles are haunted and the cryptids are cryptic as fuck. And I'm your host, Alanna. And I'm Kelsey. And I was worried my throat was making weird noises as I started the intro. I was like, Oh, no. act i radio I thought mine was doing it too. is Right, right when you looked and you looked at me weird. I thought it was because you heard my throat make a weird noise. And I was like, Oh, damn, that was so loud. She heard it.
00:01:01
Speaker
We just be over here, uh, making noise. Tibetan, Tibetan throat singing. No, ah horse you do so I always think of, um, there's a gravity falls line where Grunkle stands as something like, and I can make noises, uh, with my body sometimes intentionally. Yeah.
00:01:26
Speaker
it's yeah It's pretty accurate. um He speaks for us all, I think.
00:01:34
Speaker
Oh my gosh. But yeah, we're back for we're back on our bullshit for another episode. And yeah, I don't know. I hope you like the last one. This one is another true crime one. So probably buckle up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, mine got very dark.
Podcast Organization and Technical Issues
00:01:59
Speaker
When you're just trying to find that light murder case and you just can't know. Yeah, yeah we're gonna have to have to go back to a bit of ah maybe fun in florida Florida man. Dumbass criminals. Yeah, as a palette cleanser. Maybe next year, maybe we'll start the year off with a little funner.
00:02:28
Speaker
Yeah, it's like the way is some people get known for their dough, that's a dark case, you know, like, I noticed they did wine and crime. Um, but you know, it's true crime. So they're all dark, but we try to be respectful of the the victims. And I think that's all you can do. You can make fun of the killers because yeah, ah you know,
00:02:53
Speaker
and They're people too, but often they're quite idiotic. yeah I don't know what to tell you. ah We released another Patreon and I was telling Kelsey that I was reorganizing our stuff into different collections because before I think we had like three maybe true crime conspiracy and paranormal and like video soads and stuff like that. So I was like, wait, we need more. Like, there's so many more categories. Like, it wasn't all fitting. Yeah. So I reorganized it a bit. And cool we put out our November one and that was ah a bunch of out tanks and banter and stuff. So it should be yeah amusing. Yeah. join Join Patreon to hear all that.
00:03:46
Speaker
Yeah. We have lots of, I don't know, we have. Oh my gosh. but Probably at least 25 bonus episodes on Patreon exclusive. At least when it was broken down by collection, it was cool to see because it was like, you know, you have 12 of these in the true crime and then like 10 and made one called Lore Legends and Horror and then I'm like, oh, then we have a bunch of reacting stuff.
00:04:16
Speaker
Then we have a bunch of folklore. Then we have a bunch of like, I don't know. Oh wow. Yeah. Random stuff that we started doing. Yeah. Like, um, bad dialogue and writing and titillating tales after dark, cryptids after dark. No. So that's one whole category. Um, nice. Yeah, definitely check it out. if And if you can't, uh, you know, support on Patreon, then We love a review and a five star. Yes, free of charge. If you listen, you know, you could throw one at us. oh Yeah. Sometimes it's like, yeah, you get like the followers on Instagram. You're like, damn, nice followers. But are you all listeners? Yeah, right.
00:05:09
Speaker
oh You're like, are you regular listeners? Yeah. this is just a pity like are you just throwing us a pity follow i mean i'll take it i guess but yeah i'll boost the numbers out somehow it's not going to be the content no i'm just kidding it's great um yeah no it's not going to be me fucking up with zen caster and going to post things and then being like
00:05:41
Speaker
ah that didn't schedule right. So profession, right? um I know. I looked at it this morning before work and I went, well, I was like, I think Alana's off today. she'll She'll probably handle it. I was like, I got ahead to work. It like was all done. And I had to do the thing that you said where you put the description in Word like Microsoft because I like pressed backspace and deleted the whole freaking description halfway through writing and I was like so pissed off. so Yeah that's always annoying. I'm like Kelsey says put it in Word then at least you can go undo or whatever. The best button in existence. Yeah because when inevitably something fucks up
00:06:28
Speaker
oh yeah And then yeah, so then I was like, okay, cool. I have it written here. And then I like put it in and then it was on post production or whatever the fuck, you know, one that final step. It takes forever. I
Humorous Pet Stories and Personal Insights
00:06:42
Speaker
know. So I left it and I went away. And then I think when I came back to it, something, I must've fucked something up and didn't notice at that point. Cause then this morning I noticed that like the description was gone and it just said like,
00:06:53
Speaker
For a very brief window of hours, it just said like title or something. Yeah. And it it made me put that in. I couldn't leave it blank. So I was like, I don't know. Title words. I was like, what the fuck? Oh, what do you mean? Like it made you put it in.
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, it made me ah when I uploaded the audio for you. um Oh, yes, prior to that. Yeah, it wouldn't let me just like leave it. I had to like build a whole episode and I was like, oh, and I tried to go forward and it was like, you can't leave this blank. I was like, what's the name? And it was like, you can't leave this blank. I was like, that's a description. I was like, text words. but that was like k That's what I usually put. Yeah.
00:07:40
Speaker
oh my god so i do apologize for the first 30 people that listened without a description i don't know maybe you guys don't read show notes but i didn't even have a title and yet you downloaded it so i love you guys you were like this is a surprise bag it's two and a half hours long i'm sure they say something
00:08:07
Speaker
knowing them and all this be like us just chatting for two and a half hours hey we could probably do it i know i should apologize to the um people that do the uh the dark cast ads when they'll be like these are all the shows that drop this week and then they'll like put me episode titles and everything it's it's not us we keep we keep having to take breaks so I'm sorry guys, retail life is hard. I can't do it right now. No they're so nice because they'll like take the time to look up the episode like title and then they'll like you know like put a picture in like the background and um they did make one I think at some point today so I was like oh maybe they waited till I had it or maybe by the time. Their episode title is called text. Yeah. yeah
00:08:57
Speaker
ah god ah god we're good at this um no it's usually me we're professionals okay i can make kelsey do it next week but we're both busy and like it sometimes just gets kind of like left till the end and i just want to like finish it and hit publish and for it to just go up because the scheduling part is usually where i fuck up Yeah, it's weird. ah It defaults also to a different time zone. So you have to like manually change the time zone to it. At least it lists all the cities. So I'm just like, I just have to go through and like select the one that says Edmonton. or like
00:09:38
Speaker
like central Alberta and I was like oh there we go um but it defaults to a different one that's like totally different types of them than us and I was like why mountain mountain yeah yeah oh my god uh okay well let's get into the uh depressing episode could be
00:10:05
Speaker
I've had a runny nose all week. I'm dying. No, same. I've had some allergies.
00:10:14
Speaker
I didn't think it'd be this bad. I'm not even blowing my nose at work hardly. I was like, why am I doing it now? Dust. Yeah, something. Something at home. I'm allergic to Gordo. Suddenly, after four years, no.
00:10:35
Speaker
I'm allergic to podcasting. I'm allergic to Gordo shit. Shit and shenanigans.
00:10:45
Speaker
All right. oh Pretty litter sponsor us. No. Some cute cat shit. Also, there's that one thing talking about, like, the rope there's a robo kitty litter. Anyway, yeah once we get the listeners up there.
00:11:06
Speaker
Let's just make Gordo gordo fight the litter cleaning robot. He'll be like, I'm trying to take his shit in here and it's like I'm trying to clean. Oh no, it's like dogs in the vacuum. He does it to me in the mornings. He'll like not need to go to the bathroom. He is totally fine and is he has his box has like the roof and I unclip it to clean it.
00:11:30
Speaker
um because it just keeps i don't know it keeps a little bit less of the dust going into the air and everything so i like unclip the lid and he runs into the room and like sprints and jumps straight into the litter box and then immediately either like pees or poops and i was like okay 30 seconds ago you didn't need to go to the bathroom now just because i've taken the lid off you you have to shit like really right now when I'm trying to be a shit and he does it probably I don't know six out of seven days of the week as soon as I unclip the thing he has to go to the bathroom I'm like really um like this is insane um I'm like oh my god buddy like
00:12:16
Speaker
He saunters into the room, he's like, oh, I'm gonna eat breakfast. And then he's eating breakfast as soon as he hears this, the clips come up, he's like, oh, nevermind, I gotta take a shit. Buddy. It's Pavlovian response. It is, it's something. here He comes running and then he's like, oh, gotta pee. And then I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll wait until you're done.
00:12:44
Speaker
I don't, how do we, where do we go from here? I don't know how much that is gonna stay in. None of it. Well I have to cut out you blow your nose. I know. And we're back. And we're back and yes, Kelsey's cat.
00:13:06
Speaker
know he's He's a Gordo. I don't know. I got nothing.
00:13:13
Speaker
I got nothing. He likes to get in her way, but we already knew that. I just didn't know he did that every time he tried to clean his litter box. So annoying.
00:13:25
Speaker
Every time we let the dog out to pee or poop, he's like the the boy who cried, you got to go to the bathroom. He gets out there for like 30 seconds and he's literally barking or howling at someone and we're like, well, yeah back inside. That asshole. That's a new record. You were out there for three seconds.
00:13:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Animals. We loved them. Yeah, right.
00:13:54
Speaker
We love them and they don't pay rent. ah We love them and what? it They don't pay rent. Oh, yeah. And I wanted a ferret when I was young. I'm so glad. I did too. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's the high maintenance animals, I tell you.
Karim Salim's Background and Family Dynamics
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. Ferret king.
00:14:19
Speaker
um All right. Tell me a story, Kelsey. Yeah. I'm gonna bring the mood right down. ah This dude has a few different names. ah okay Yeah, I had a couple different names. yeah Gotta dude, there's some names, maybe some stuff. I'm prepared to probably hate him.
00:14:46
Speaker
continue Oh yeah, you should. He's 100% gonna deserve it. Okay, so not the victim then. Nope, he is very bad and sucks. You know, sometimes there's a lot of choices in in the crime area where you're like, oh, I could do this asshole. I could do this asshole.
00:15:09
Speaker
yeah Yeah, this dude ah technically is classified as a serial killer, I guess. It's kind of more recent. ah Trials just happened this year. So they're still thinking like more stuff may come out and maybe more victims, which we'll get into, but... Ooh, okay.
00:15:32
Speaker
It was also a little hard to find information. Some stuff was conflicting of other sources. And then I think just because it's so recent, maybe some stuff is still a little more ongoing.
00:15:46
Speaker
yeah so it's harder to find stuff in other countries just a little bit in general too yeah i also it seems like the victims that were killed uh or any other possible victims none of them were named anywhere that i could see so i have no information about any of the victims which normally ah yeah it's really unfortunate but i think maybe they have different privacy things so I mean, yeah, they might have different privacy laws about disclosing that because they did just disclose what cities they lived in. And it did talk about like when when the father of whatever victim was interviewed, he discussed this, but it never named them or named the victims or anything. Okay, that's something I didn't super come across, but my one mine was a little bit of a different nature, I think.
00:16:45
Speaker
Yeah um so I don't have anything really a whole lot to talk about the victim so it is very focused on the the perpetrator. Yeah that's the media's fault. Yeah so much yours you tried. Yeah ah he has yeah he has a few different names I don't know if there's more he's been called the assembly killer a fifth settlement serial killer or a new Cairo serial killer. Yeah. They're not super catchy if they're trying to make the names catch on. No, not really. ah I just call him Karim. That's his name Karim Salim. It ah kind of rhymes. Okay. Yeah.
00:17:38
Speaker
All right, Karim was born in 1987 in Alexandria, which was the second, or is the second largest city in Egypt. Okay. and Yeah, I didn't know. i I knew the name, but I could never have told you it was in Egypt. And like, is the biggest one then just Cairo, I guess?
00:18:03
Speaker
I think so. i yeah okay I'm so bad at geography, I suck. I it depends what they teach you, right? I'm always like yeah surprised at how little Americans snowpo canada and like fifteen provinces slash like if you know like, we have states, 13 states. Yeah. And yet they're like, what? Who?
00:18:30
Speaker
I still could barely remember what the capitals of each of those 13 were. No, you know what? It's not great. It's it's not good. like We're a big country too, so people, when you live out west, you don't necessarily know a lot about what's going on out east unless you've been there, and vice versa. and I used to think that Manitoba and Saskatchewan were flipped in their order. ah Okay. I thought Manitoba was further west.
00:18:58
Speaker
so We can all be forgiven for not knowing how maps work yeah sometimes. Right.
00:19:08
Speaker
yeah The Salim family was described by others as kind and financially comfortable at the time that Karim was born, so yeah.
00:19:23
Speaker
From a young age, Karim was described as remarkable. He did like standing out from those around him and kind of seemed to do stuff intentionally to get himself noticed. So kind of more extroverted type of personality. Oh, sounds like something the kid they would describe as being precocious or something. yeah Like they want adults approval. I don't know.
00:19:49
Speaker
Oh, probably, yeah. okay After graduating from school, the rest of the Slim family chose to relocate to America. ah Well, Karim, after graduating high school, I guess, had decided to stay in Egypt and he had enrolled at the American University.
00:20:09
Speaker
I did not know. Yeah, apparently there's an American university located in Cairo, and it's Egypt's private English language university. So it's got a lot of like courses and stuff you can take, but I just didn't think that this university would call be called the American university.
00:20:30
Speaker
ah like a I heard there was a river called the Canada River in America or something. Wait, why? Yeah, I was like, I'm confused now. We own this river. I know it was like in Ohio or something. I don't I don't even know. it like Okay. I think I had looked up it's been a few days since I did my notes. I think I had looked up the American University and said that they have other campuses around the world overseas and stuff. So
00:21:03
Speaker
yeah ah okay Yeah, it kind of seems to be like a thing. It's not just the one campus that they have. um Right, but it's not like specifically English teaching or like English language. It is, it's a private English language university. Or I'm sorry, I guess I mean, it's not like it ESL English as a second language, sort of.
00:21:30
Speaker
deal. I don't know. and I'm not too sure. I didn't know it's too deep. But yeah, no, no, it sounds like a really good school. Yeah, it probably was. ah While he was enrolled there, his classmates said he was extremely respectable, courteous, and ah they described him as refined, being a refined individual. ah That comes up a lot. He's very obsessed with how he's perceived, and he wants to be perceived very refined and respectable for sure, which is crazy for what he starts doing later. You're just like, what?
00:22:10
Speaker
American Psycho and Egypt vibes. Yeah, Gordo, can you be respectful? Can you be refined right now? Or courteous even?
00:22:23
Speaker
Go over there. Courteous or caddious? Is he a jellicle cat? No, I haven't seen cats, but I heard someone talking about it. It scares me, so I have not seen it. It's too creepy. and I know. I don't think I can handle it.
00:22:41
Speaker
Maybe if they released like, I don't know, an animated where they look like the aristocrats or something, I could handle it. But if they look like weird CGI people cats or people in fursuits, I will not ever watch it. I guess I'm just glad you didn't say if they released the butthole cut. No, no, or whatever oh no, I know. Everyone says it's terrible.
00:23:10
Speaker
sir Yeah, that's gross. ah and boommor Moving on.
00:23:19
Speaker
After completing these courses at the American University, Karim worked in business, I guess, with the father. um I don't know if he was still operating business in Egypt, like, well, they had relocated to America because, like, his family's still in America, so I'm not exactly sure how this was happening.
00:23:40
Speaker
But it said that during this time, working with him, he was relying pretty heavily financially on the family. Which, I mean, he had just graduated. He hadn't really gotten anything lined up yet, so I think that's pretty typical. Yeah, he'd probably still be living at home if they were still there. Like, did they sell the house, I wonder?
00:24:06
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not too sure. Karim desired to choose a career path and that this would help gain independence from the family. And I think it might have taken him a few years to kind of figure this out. But he did end up deciding to do a PhD at an American university ah studying psychology. Campus in the US of A?
00:24:37
Speaker
i I am not sure because it said at an American university studying psychology, but it didn't say the American university. And at this time, as far as I could tell, he was still in Egypt. So not really sure. okay Maybe some sort of online situation. But as I said, this is really recent. So he's educated.
00:25:01
Speaker
yeah i mean He's working on a PhD in psychology, um which made me think of your case like a couple weeks ago. ah the military friends when the guy was yeah he was studying psychology and I was like oh man this is another guy studying psychology and now he's gonna be a psycho uh oh my god that's one way to put it you're like oh no study it too and then I gotta wonder yeah if it's gonna make you look at those dark parts of yourself like ah it is kind of scary to think about that you're gonna psychoanalyze like everyone you meet
00:25:36
Speaker
including yourself and your partner and everyone from then on if you take it. yeah like In high school we took a couple like college level psychology courses like I remember our teacher one of the first weeks in class she pulled up the course outline for like one of the local university psychology courses and was like yeah we do like kind of each of these topics we'll be touching on but to like a lesser degree but we had people come in that were like public speakers and people from all walks of life we had a woman that um was a medium she came and spoke to us about
00:26:18
Speaker
Like, yeah, like it was an amazing class. um And it was cool because the days we got speakers, they just graded us on our participation um and stuff, which I really enjoyed because it you got marks for participating. So like asking questions and um all that kind of stuff and like engaging with like the speaker, which was really cool.
00:26:43
Speaker
um And yeah, so we had a medium come on. she i remember Weirdly, I don't remember the details of it, but I remember her telling us that she had tried to contact the White House before 9-11 because she had seen it happen. Yeah, and that they didn't believe her and she called them for months, um but she didn't really give any follow-ups on that. um Yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
that's not the first person I heard that had a premonition of yeah she told us she had seen some other stuff yeah yeah seen some other stuff too um I can't really remember because it was a while ago and then we also had like um keep in mind this is high school
Challenges in Karim's Personal and Professional Life
00:27:25
Speaker
we had uh a former sex worker that was had like come in to talk to us And she like discussed about how she um like ah the situations in her family and everything kind of led her to end up like engaging in that kind of work. And everything in hers was like involving drugs and um basically being forced into it by like her mom and that kind of stuff.
00:27:50
Speaker
um Yeah, sex work done, not by choice. Yeah. Yeah, but it, yeah, so it was actually really cool. I like that kind of psychology. So I find it interesting that like our last kind of couple cases, people are studying psychology, but it seems to, I don't know, not make them better or like make them understand themselves more. It seems to, I don't know if it makes them worse or or if they just have a complete like blind spot when it comes to themselves. Like they're not self-aware at all. Yeah. Maybe that's what it is because I yeah I got it started thinking about that I was like well I like took the courses and I feel like studying that you can't help but like see people are more complex and stuff then like just what they're showing you or like somebody walking down the street like they have this whole life um
00:28:45
Speaker
Yeah, I find it interesting he was studying psychology. I find it interesting he was studying psychology. So keep that in mind for all the stuff I'm going to tell you he ends up doing because it's crazy.
00:29:02
Speaker
Yeah, this gets pretty brutal. While he was studying at N, not the, but N American University, he met his wife. um I don't even think i have they released her name, too. I didn't find it in any of the sources.
00:29:21
Speaker
ah people knew or sorry People who knew Karim during this time said he became even more cultured like as he met his wife. um He became more obsessed with having refined taste and manners, and this persona that he was putting on would stick around for quite a number of years, quite a while. Interesting.
00:29:44
Speaker
After getting married, Karim and his wife moved to America. I don't know exactly where they moved, but it seemed like they were fairly close to where his the rest of his family had settled down. Okay, but it doesn't even give like the state or nothing. I don't think it said.
00:30:03
Speaker
yeah ah They moved there with the goal of setting up a life together and had planned to never return to Egypt. Karim actually ended up obtaining American citizenship, and the couple lived there for five years, during which time they had a son that they named Zane. Kind of weird, I could find their son's name, but not his wife. Right, that's the only mention you had of the wife, is that you couldn't find the name. I was like, wait, what wife? Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Oh, that's so odd. yeah Can't find her name, but their name their son's name is Zane.
00:30:41
Speaker
um that is interesting yeah
00:30:47
Speaker
um yeah So they've been there, America, for about five years. They said that Zayn was a welcome addition, but around this time there had been cracks that had already kind of splitting the the happily married couple apart. Or maybe not so... Yeah, maybe not so happily married as Karim would like like his little persona outward appearance to be. Because babies don't fix everything in a relationship?
00:31:18
Speaker
yeah Yeah. It's news to us. Nor do pets. Let's take our more commitment because we're not sure. Yeah, yeah fur babies also don't help.
00:31:34
Speaker
Karim's wife did apparently like she had some issues. She said that she didn't like that Karim was described as excessively skeptical.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah, don't necessarily. Yeah, ah had many issues was also a statement she said, but no kind of follow up on what those are. um But this I can totally understand. She also said he needed everything to be exceptional and like perfect all the time.
00:32:08
Speaker
So that could be a lot, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I'm seeing there's an expectation he's putting forth that's hot. Yeah. And she tried whenever she would say anything about like how she was feeling um or them having like any problems that she wanted to talk to him about, Karim would get uncomfortable and then they would get into a huge argument.
00:32:34
Speaker
ah Yeah, so she was trying. I mean, she was trying to talk to him about these kind of things. And she also said that she thought that Karim did not have a job at this time, which we'll kind of get into. I mean, honestly, I believe her. ah Oh, no. I don't think... Yeah. So that's not gonna help your champagne taste, buddy. No, definitely not. You need to have some income.
00:33:01
Speaker
It seems like he was still pretty reliant on the dad's money, that kind of stuff still going on, even though he was supposed to have been doing this PhD in psychology um and setting up like their life together independent. I mean, that's why he chose that career so he could set up his own career and become financially independent, but that didn't seem to have happened. Okay.
00:33:27
Speaker
um And she wasn't the only one noticing his weird behavior. um His family even mentioned that he was refusing to listen to anyone for any advice. yeah And they also mentioned that like they had noticed he always needed to be right about everything and everything needed to always go his way. Oh, yes. Very domineering. Yep.
00:33:53
Speaker
um Because of the conflicts between Karim and his family, he decided that him and his wife and their son needed a fresh start. So even though they had planned not to move to or not to ever go back to Egypt, they he decided to pack up the family and move them back to Egypt, just the wife and the son. Yeah, because he didn't want his family butting in on his happy little marriage anymore.
00:34:20
Speaker
yeah Oh no, isn't this the family that's still quite supporting him? Right? I mean, it seemed like everybody around him was trying. It like didn't seem like they were that mad at him or anything. like They were honestly trying to help and talk to him about it. Yeah, he sounds like a little bit of a...
00:34:45
Speaker
im mature boy Yeah, once they settled back in the Tagamoo area in Egypt,
00:34:56
Speaker
um
00:34:59
Speaker
They opened, this is so left field. This is where like one bizarre thing happens after another that just like, as I was reading, it was like, wait, what are they gonna, like what, what are they just gonna say next? Cause this is where the weirdness starts. They move back to Egypt and they open him and his wife a tattoo studio in early 2017.
00:35:23
Speaker
For some reason. I wouldn't have guessed that in probably many years. Absolutely not. yep ah The studio i guess operated smoothly for two years to the credit only of his wife who was managing everything while Karim was described to have had little involvement in the business. So kudos to her. Does he have tattoos? Has he ever seen a tattoo? I have no idea.
00:35:50
Speaker
I have no idea. What is the business planning going into this? He was studying psychology and then moved to Egypt to open a tattoo studio. I think we put more thought into our podcast.
00:36:06
Speaker
i mean yeah just like Hey, let's do a thing. Hey, Alana, you want to open a tattoo studio? You want to become a funeral? parlor owners like this is a particular set of skills yeah um yeah so that's that's weird we just starts ah snowballing of what wait what um one after another of weirdness i was like oh this that honestly it gets a little fun and then it's like damn like what what are they gonna say next kind of a thing yeah
00:36:42
Speaker
ah During this time, Karim was also said, for some reason, to be working at one of Egypt's most prestigious international schools, where the couple or the yeah the couple's son Zayn was enrolled. Really? He has some sort of degree now?
00:37:02
Speaker
Maybe? i don't I honestly don't know. I've read like five sources and not a single one could say anything more than I have typed here. It's wild. um Most of this information was from one source. And yeah, it was like one of the first ones I read and some of the other ones I just kind of used to like fact check it. um Yeah.
00:37:27
Speaker
Okay, so he's working at this school, I guess. Well, they're also trying to do a tattoo studio? I don't know. 2019 is kind of, everything starts falling apart. ah Problems start between Karim and the school.
00:37:43
Speaker
ah Saying despite his efforts to present himself as a calm and educated man. He would frequently get into weird bizarre arguments It said almost everybody that even just spoke to him Would it would snowball into some sort of argument and you're like we were just talking um So he was just arguing with people all the time at the school okay Yeah ah Strangely though, they didn't really know what how to take this because whenever Karim upset someone he would bring them a flower the next day ah making it really hard for those around him to interpret his weird back-and-forth behavior of like being super mad and arguing with him and then the next day being like here's a flower okay yeah he would give them a flower the next day
00:38:38
Speaker
um
00:38:41
Speaker
This is also a little weird. Despite efforts to maintain this perfect, refined, person and respectable persona, Karim's employment at the school was terminated in the same year in 2019 due to use of drugs. What?
00:38:59
Speaker
oh Vague but damning. Yeah, I don't have a lot more information about this. ah The one source said, Krim had a long history of drug abuse. His use had escalated during the couple's time living in America, where he he had begun taking larger doses and different types of drugs, leading him to experience hallucinations. Okay, out of school.
00:39:31
Speaker
and Great. Well, now yeah, that was back in America, I guess, but this kind of followed him the two years of them moving back to Egypt. o um Yeah, 2019 seems to really be when like shit hits the fan. ah He gets fired from the school. I think probably the tattoo studio goes under because it says it only operated for like two-ish years. So I think that puts it about 2019 as well. Okay.
00:39:58
Speaker
And then also in 2019, Karim accuses his wife of infidelity with his closest friend in an event which he claims to have witnessed himself. um Like the infidelity apparently he witnessed. and Yeah. um As a result, the couple divorces and Karim files a lawsuit against his wife for adultery.
00:40:25
Speaker
Is that a thing? Can you sue somebody for cheating on you? Maybe in Egypt? and don know are you I've once maybe heard the term sue for divorce or something, but I don't know. That sounds all very fishy to me.
00:40:45
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe because I already know he's the bad guy. ah Right? Yeah. We all have our flaws. People are people. They're not evil or not evil. But yeah, maybe I'm just... Oh, this guy's... This guy's evil. Oh no.
00:41:04
Speaker
Um, Krim moved into an apartment in the Fifth Settlement area, which is... I mean, he's got the nickname, the Fifth Settlement Series Killer. Oh no! But again, that one is just not catchy. I don't... No. Why giving him all the names when they're not even memorable? I just don't understand.
00:41:27
Speaker
I think this is maybe because like this fifth settlement area doesn't seem like much to us, but it was within one of the most renowned ah compounds.
00:41:39
Speaker
ah ah So it was like apartment buildings like luxury, luxury apartment buildings, gated communities and everything. So for him to and that was the fifth settlement area. So it was like people that were rich. So for him to be a serial killer that lived in one of those houses is a little or like apartments is a little uh kind of like a one-off kind of thing that stands out but yeah god and i bet he just loved that moniker then if it's luxury apartments probably again i don't know where he's getting the money he got fired and presumably the tattoo studio went under so right big loser okay yeah
00:42:19
Speaker
was gonna get worse. So ah they have plans to move into this apartment building and just what everybody wants ah in their newly built apartment, Karim contacts the person in charge of finishing the apartment and requests that they um Maybe make him a completely soundproof room in a specific little room, ah telling him or telling them, yeah, you can see where this is going, that he is super passionate about music and recording videos and he like doesn't want to disturb his neighbors. Podcasting. Yeah, I'm very passionate about podcasting. ah can you I literally have no soundproofing in my door. my dar My door is ajar right now. like You can podcast.
00:43:05
Speaker
in a room that's pretty close and it's gonna sound fine. I was like, hey, can you soundproof this windowless, creepy, tiny room?
Karim's Public Persona vs. Criminal Activities
00:43:15
Speaker
I want to listen to music without disturbing my neighbors if I want to play music at 2 a.m. really, really loudly. Red room. Yeah, exactly.
00:43:29
Speaker
He said he needed the space to have a crystal clear sound without causing a disturbance to the neighbors if he chose to play music at night. Then this whole thing, so I guess that gets built weirdly. Once Karim and his son move into the apartment, you'll never guess what they do. They start a TikTok account together.
00:43:54
Speaker
and I was like, what? I was waiting for murders, so I was going to guess that. ah Right. ah They start a TikTok account where Karim shares a variety of videos, including tips on learning English and videos focusing on improving father-son relationships.
00:44:15
Speaker
Yay! I was reading this case and I was like, holy shit, 10 years ago, this wouldn't have been possible. Oh my god, social social media crimes, people that are like... Oh yeah, people that exploit social media, yeah. Yeah, this dude, he does get social media loneliness.
00:44:40
Speaker
sorry
00:44:43
Speaker
This dude, he will, he will get famous. Unfortunately. Oh my god. Stop teasing me. I need to know. Uh, videos frequently show. Oh, I put shoot. It's just showed him the edging.
00:45:03
Speaker
Uh, they showed him teaching his son proper English and certain psychological behaviors for children. I had no idea what that meant. That means nothing in a sentence like that. It means have everything and nothing. Psychological behaviors. Yeah, certain psychological behaviors for children.
00:45:26
Speaker
Okay, cool. um During this time, Karim Solim's name became widely known on TikTok due to the free English learning videos, which I guess would be pretty popular. And people really, I guess, enjoyed his eloquent speaking style, his appearance, I don't know, and calm demeanor in the videos. Okay.
00:45:53
Speaker
It can be hard for people that don't speak English as a first language to understand us when we do speak quickly, I've heard, so I guess. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it is he was providing something educational, so I guess that's kudos, but yeah. Right. um That's all we can say about that. That's good, yeah.
00:46:16
Speaker
yeah one of the craziest uh not one of but a crazy thing he did i guess after ah him and his wife had divorced um because obviously the son is living with him he's not seeing the mom he told their son zane that his mom had died immediately after him and her had divorced and as far as we know it cut out a bit his he said his mom died Yeah, he told Zane that his mom had died right after that they had split up. And as far as we know, he never told Zane that his mom was still alive.
00:46:55
Speaker
um Presumably, obviously, he's aware now, but I mean, he's only like, I don't know, he's pretty young. I can't remember when he was born. I'm wondering why he even got the kid in the divorce. Right? that's Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah, okay.
00:47:14
Speaker
um If you remember this like supposed adultery that Karim says he experienced made him harbor anger towards women who may engage in sex work, ah ah adultery, ah or simply ah um women that agreed to go home with someone that they had just met based on that person's appearance, perceived social status, or wealth.
00:47:40
Speaker
um yeah oh okay yeah he just hates women now i mean okay it sounds like you know when someone's being like oh god forbid i do something gay it's like are you homophobic because maybe you're a little gay or whatever it's like thou don't protest too much yeah i don't know shady shady
00:48:12
Speaker
ah Karim's drug use, specifically he was using crystal meth, ah okay had taken over his brain. ah he and This is where it gets real bad. He had developed a strong pleasure response to inflicting torture, whether he was experiencing it himself or inflicting it on others.
00:48:33
Speaker
Apparently. Don't do drugs, kids.
00:48:37
Speaker
e So, not to kink shame, but his, he got yeah, he started getting real sexual pleasure. Yeah, this is like non-consensual in any way. It may have started that way. Maybe there was like certain, yeah Jesus, um like negotiations, but he definitely took stuff way too far than what anybody probably agreed to participate in.
00:49:03
Speaker
right um One of the sources said that Karim began frequenting cafes ah where he would charm women with his refined demeanor and persona, helped along with the fact that he was now very popular and recognizable from TikTok. and This meant that many women recognized him like when he was out in public and would approach him instead of him having to approach them. I know, right? You're like, God damn it.
00:49:32
Speaker
This is very uncomfortable. Right? ah Once lured back to his apartment, Krim would initiate a deviant, it said, or a sadistic relationship, whether, as I said, they previously negotiated any part of it or not. Krim's drug use would cause him to take things way too far, um because he's not clear headed. And it also said that he would, like, drug the victims, I guess, too. So, like, nobody's in proper mind to
00:50:03
Speaker
be engaging in anything like this. And he would then torture them, um including like whipping, pulling their hair, ah removing nails, like fingernails and toenails. And then ah finally, I guess he would end up strangling them using either a rope or an iron chain, um which they find later. Okay, so you weren't kidding. Yeah, he's not nice. Yeah.
00:50:33
Speaker
No. These are straight up torture tactics for sure. Yeah. One strangled ah so a couple of the courses sources sources said that Karim would engage in necrophilia with the deceit's body. um Yeah, he was like sexually assaulting them before and after that they were dead. um Yeah.
00:50:58
Speaker
ah afterward the victim's body would be disposed of on a desert road ah completely disfigured like he would just do crazy things to their face anything he thought would identify them in any way and would leave them there with no means of identification and it took a while for them to like figure out what was happening It makes me sad that we can't even like say the victim's names now still. Right? um Obviously people out there know because their families are interviewed and they have a couple things like what their families responded with. So I think they just didn't release it to the public. um But yeah yeah, the people that were investigating at least did figure out who
00:51:48
Speaker
the victims are, so that's good. Must be some sort of laws they have similar to the ones we have about minors and how their names can't be announced. um I don't know, but I wonder.
00:52:03
Speaker
So while all this is going on, when it's not happening, Karim, meanwhile, goes back to his normal life, records new videos for TikTok many times in that same little soundproof room that he used to hold his victims. no online And online. Yeah, same social media app that I've used to whore out our own podcast. Yes. I know. I was like, ooh, Alana's going to love this because it fashions on TikTok. I was like, yeah. So crazy.
00:52:33
Speaker
social media, serial killers, they shouldn't mix. Like, it was wild. We have ways to track you nowadays. Like, you know what I mean? The the ones that have been taken down like the the the the guy with the don't fuck with cats. And he was kidding. And they they were like, oh, and then we found because of the brand of cigarettes that he was smoking that this guy that was torturing cats was Luca Megnata or whatever. And you're like, what ah fuck Yeah. It's crazy. The sleuths out there. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, when I was reading this case, I was like, this is so weird because I saw all the headlines. It was like serial killer and I'm reading the thing and it was like, OK. And I was like, oh, he's doing mess. Oh, he opened a tattoo parlor. Oh, now he's a TikTok celebrity. Oh, now he's doing this. I was like, what is even happening right now? I was like, this is the most bizarre. What is this guy's bucket list?
00:53:33
Speaker
Yeah, I was like, this is the most bizarre story I think I've read in a long
Investigation, Trial, and Conviction of Karim Salim
00:53:37
Speaker
time. Just so many random things in it. I'm social media famous and serial killer, not in that order. Yeah, just go on the traitors. You feel like as if you get picked as a traitor.
00:53:51
Speaker
You get to quote-unquote murder other people and then your social media. Yeah. Oh my god. um Yeah. I can't remember which source it said, maybe my main one, ah that Karim later admitted that some of the girls would quote-unquote stay.
00:54:12
Speaker
with him for up to 18 days like so they were there for a long time like enduring this it wasn't like short little overnight whatever or even a couple hours it was weeks Um, right. yeah And the word stay does not encompass whatever is happening. I know. That's what he said that the girls would stay with him for a couple weeks. No, that implies that they could leave. Passive verb. Yeah. To use as if they could have just, yeah, exactly. Left if they wanted to.
00:54:48
Speaker
i neighbors made many observations about him like during his time in this apartment. ah First, ah they said that many girls would come to the house and never be seen again. And second that they would sometimes hear screams but the sound would quickly vanish. Lovely. Why didn't anybody say anything? Okay. Yeah. Wow. They did point out also like the sun is Hold on, I want to see when they move to America, because that's when there for five years, and then they move back 2017.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yeah, like, I mean, the sun's at least four or five, um because they talk about how strange it is that the sun never apparently noticed any of the girls, never heard or saw anything, um all while living in the same apartment, completely unaware that this was going on.
00:56:11
Speaker
so but he's also really young so i'm like yeah like i think it didn't exactly say his age but i think he's probably four or five like He's barely started making memories. Okay, interesting. Um, another source said that it was like, yeah, ah Karim had gotten by like 2000, like 2020, he had gotten really good at this and um was like, he had had a decade of practice and had been doing this ah routine since 2011. I was like, wait, what? Like,
00:56:47
Speaker
Not corroborated by anything I read, but okay um who knows what they're going to find again. It seems like they're trying to go back and maybe link more stuff to him. But as far as we know, it seems to just be 2023 that everything went started in.
00:57:07
Speaker
Oh, okay. um Yeah, said he was very good at choosing victims and disposing of the bodies in strange remote locations. Said that he, this is all I really have about the victims, he chose women or girls from different residential areas in all different ages. I think it said from like 19 to 35.
00:57:28
Speaker
um And then it was three different cities that they were ah taken from. And then they were all put in like totally different locations that were all remote, like the side of a road in the desert. Okay, dumped them all the same.
00:57:48
Speaker
Yeah, but Karim's history of going undetected soon came to an end. ah To start with, in November of 2023, security authorities received a report from a group of individuals that had found a body of a young girl. um They said that her features were unrecognizable, and they had found her abandoned on a desert road.
00:58:13
Speaker
um There was some DNA testing, I guess, that was done by the forensic department, um but they couldn't really do much with it at this point. Maybe they didn't have a match on file or stuff. ah Shortly after this, two more bodies matching similar descriptions were found. One in April of 2024 and another in May of 2024. And they both had the same signs of torture and also showed no signs of identification as their features were completely obscured and like
00:58:45
Speaker
destroyed. And um because of this, their bodies were also sent to the forensic department. So now they have like three bodies. Okay. Yeah. Forensic reports revealed that all three had neck fractures fractures and had been strangled either with a rope or a chain. um And they all obviously showed signs of torture.
00:59:12
Speaker
and then multiple mutilation marks to the face, um hopefully after death. Right. God, gruesome. Yeah. ah All three have been sexually assaulted ah and given large doses of drugs, including crystal meth, and their bodies also showed signs of severe beatings.
00:59:38
Speaker
And because of these similarities between the three, um once they had the three authorities believed that they were looking for one suspect for all three, despite the distance between where the bodies were found and where like the cities that the girls actually lived in and that kind of stuff. um Which I mean, kudos for them for putting it together so quickly. um Once the bodies were found.
01:00:04
Speaker
yeah yeah sometimes you see cases and it's like no they couldn't they didn't put anything together but this one seems you know they they were working really hard on that scene like right uh security personnel were able to finally identify the bodies um and contacted their families um that had all actually already reported them missing um oh here it is they were between the ages of 19 and 37 um yeah yeah once the victim yeah Yeah, once the victims were identified, their families were interviewed about their daughter's final whereabouts. One of the victims' fathers informed them that his daughter had been taking an English language course from a man named Karim, and she would have been the last one to see her.
01:00:57
Speaker
yeah He told them that he had previously tried to talk to Karim about his daughter's disappearance, being like, yeah, you last saw her, do you know where she is. um And Karim had just told the dad that he had seen the daughter, ah but he had not seen her since she had left, and he did not know where she was.
01:01:19
Speaker
um so they kind of they keep that in the back of their mind they start combing through surveillance footage from around all the areas where the bodies are found and they're like reviewing everything and they reveal a luxury car that's spotted driving through all three areas and around all three areas around the times that the bodies were dumped damn a gold Mercedes no I don't know, it didn't say, but something something equally as pretentious as that, I'm sure. I remember I talked about that one Russian guy one time that had like a gold car, and I was like, that is so conspicuous. Run for the cops. It's the guy in the gold car. like you know Even if you can't remember other features, like you would know. Yeah.
01:02:12
Speaker
Uh,
01:02:16
Speaker
investigators, uh, looked into the owner and it was revealed to be, this says Professor Karim. I don't know when he became a professor. Maybe he finished his PhD.
01:02:28
Speaker
So I'm like this case is frustrating because there was not not a lot of really good information because it was so recent. um So this dude obviously becomes their sole suspect.
01:02:41
Speaker
um don't really have anything about them investigating him a whole lot but he was apprehended um and they were interviewing him and then obviously like everybody else he denies everything ah even tried citing his American citizenship as immunity because remember when he was living in America he did get like American citizenship so he's like oh i I just want to go to America I'm an American citizen I don't want to be stuck in Egypt it's like really so what sir
01:03:15
Speaker
yeah However, the security team that had been investigating him had a mountain of evidence and Karim, they like presented it to him and Karim eventually confessed and then shockingly told them that there was a fourth body that they hadn't found yet. ah No follow-up as far as I know. They have not.
01:03:37
Speaker
found this body and have not released details if he told them anything about it. So there is a potential fourth victim we don't know about. I know. I like that knowing. Yeah, unfortunately, there's a lot of not knowing in this one.
01:03:57
Speaker
okay ah While searches were conducted on his apartment, they reviewed his phone and laptop as well as that little sound proof room um which contained a whip, chains, rope, drug paraphernalia, all these sorts of medications and sedatives.
01:04:16
Speaker
oh as yeah um As well as what one source said was a number of videos depicting him torturing or sexually assaulting his victims while they were under the influence of drugs. um I think that was only mentioned in one thing so don't know much about that.
01:04:36
Speaker
um
01:04:39
Speaker
During a crime reconstruction with security personnel, Karim briefly escaped but was recaptured in a nearby park attempting to hide in the bushes. I think think it's that he was hiding in the bushes. It's like the Homer meme where he just fades. Yeah, he just takes a step back.
01:04:59
Speaker
ah
01:05:03
Speaker
Yeah, so there there is kind of a consensus um that there were like these four victims, even though we only know for sure about three of them. um There is a possibility that there may be more as I guess he has been linked to six possible victims. Again, I don't know anything more than that. Krim claims to have no recollection about the number of victims and Inquiries and investigations seem to be ongoing in what was described as one of Egypt's most challenging cases.
01:05:40
Speaker
Which I mean, yeah, weird. um There was some other stuff that was a little different. This was all from english.ahram.org dot.english.
01:05:58
Speaker
ah dot and dot net Yeah, I was like, there's too many dots. um Yeah, this has a little bit ah about the trial as well as a kind of mention there's some confliction about some of the details so this is what this site had. The accused who described himself as a sadist admitted before the investigating authorities to luring what he described as sex workers via Facebook
01:06:33
Speaker
ah considering that committing his crimes with them and getting rid of them is easy as no one asks about them. So yeah, as I said, you can hate him. Yeah, I just I hadn't seen anywhere else about like the victims being described as sex workers and him like luring them via Facebook because it seemed like most of the other things talked about the cafes and him just meeting people but Yeah, he's it's obviously a very flippant remark. He's probably not even being super accurate. yeah During the trial, which started in June and witnessed courthouse drama moments, including his first lawyer's announcement that he withdrew from representing him, Salim denied the charges and confessions. so Oh, it lost and lost me for a second, I think. Can you hear me?
01:07:31
Speaker
Yeah, it said last connection, but now it's fine. It's weird. Including his first lawyer's announcement that he withdrew from representing him, Selim denied the charges and confessions he had made following the arrest in the ah to the prosecution. So he was trying to backpedal, say he didn't confess and there was no fourth body. Okay.
01:07:59
Speaker
Despite Salim's claims in the court, the prosecution presented the incriminating videos featuring his engagement in necrophilia acts with the victim's dead bodies after murdering them in his own home in an upscale compound in New Cairo. and So the videos must exist. Yeah.
01:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, the video these videos, I guess, most must exist. I guess they were talked about in court. I forgot about that. on yeah ah They also presented closed circuit television or CCTV videos showing him on his way to and from disposing of the bodies. um Again, I think those were the videos.
01:08:44
Speaker
they ID'd him from with like the car. um However, some of the videos were leaked to social media, including the prosecution, or sorry, leading the prosecution to open another investigation in July to stand on how they were leaked. It also warned the public that sharing such videos constitutes as a crime, according to the law. I don't know what some of these videos were, but I hope it was not any of the ones from his computer or phone.
01:09:19
Speaker
ah yeah According to Egyptian media, the murderer who has a US passport has also kidnapped his son from his ex-wife.
01:09:30
Speaker
like what that was a little tidbit um i was like what but i mean he did tell the son that his the wife or the mom was dead but i didn't i didn't see anywhere else about him supposedly kidnapping their son so yeah um so yeah if you're gonna go so far as to tell them that then like that's what a lot of the times the parent abductors will say is you know they'll just poison them against the other apparent to be like, oh no, I had to do this for your own good and all that, yeah.
01:10:05
Speaker
um yeah only have a tiny bit more uh salim's ex-wife an egyptian american who resides in the u.s now it seems like she moved away uh has already requested the return of her son following the arrest of her ex-husband like no duh um she better get their son like there's a really sad on self mysteries episode about those parental abductions it makes me really sad yeah it's
01:10:36
Speaker
yeah ah so Yeah, so that's what it had on that one site. I wanted to include that kind of stuff because I didn't really find it anywhere else. um Just to kind of wrap up, I guess the prosecution had referred Salim to criminal court on charges of murder, drug possession, drug trafficking, and human trafficking, um and his sentence could be appealed.
01:11:04
Speaker
in two thousand or sorry in September 2024 Karim Salim, now age 37, who had reached over 629,000 followers on TikTok. Oh, shut up. Right?
01:11:22
Speaker
I was like, I was like, oh, maybe he'll have like a few thousand. I was like six hundred and twenty nine thousand. God damn it. It's crazy how to be social media famous. You can be like this dude was a serial killer. who You are. And yet none of us have ever heard of him. Yeah, exactly.
01:11:42
Speaker
oh um Yeah, 629,000 followers on TikTok was sentenced to death by hanging over the torture, drugger, drugger, drugging, murder, and sexual abuse before and after death of three women. Like, holy shit. and This dude sucks. Yeah, right?
01:12:06
Speaker
It's not like the staircase. I know. i
Societal Reactions and Broader Social Issues in Egypt
01:12:09
Speaker
I appreciate how quickly because I mean, what did I say? The first the first body they found in November, 2023. And then the next one was April. And then the one at the last one was May. And he was like in at trial by ah June,
01:12:26
Speaker
I think he was in trial. So like within the next month, he was at trial and sentenced to death by September, all of this year. Like, whoo. uh holy shit yeah uh hopefully they can figure out like if he has other victims and everything so that at least the families can get closure about what happened because they're probably still like missing um well it's something you can't get if you kill them before they reveal it i mean yeah exactly gotta sit on death row make them sweat for a few decades
01:13:06
Speaker
um Yeah, this one was like wild. I was reading it and then I was just like, oh my god, he goes to university. Oh, now he's studying psychology. Oh, now he opened a tattoo studio. Oh, now he's taking drugs. Now he's a teacher. Oh, he got fired. Now he's a TikTok star. Oh, now he's a sadist. Oh, now he's murdering people.
01:13:32
Speaker
I was like, this is so wild. Like I didn't, half the stuff I couldn't have predicted. I was like, this is so bizarre. It's like a ah poorly written movie script, I think. You're just throwing stuff, being like, okay, he needs an occupation. You're like tattoo artist, TikTok celebrity, a psychologist. You're like, that's an occupation. You're like, that's an occupation. They're like, yeah, sure. Right.
01:14:02
Speaker
yeah yeah some of our bucket lists would overlap yeah and i wouldn't mind getting social media famous that's not that's not too bad yeah uh donate to patreon so alana and i can get soundproof rooms built sound proof closets for recording yes ah we're not going to start sacrificing people nope nope um Yeah, this one was wild. I kept seeing like the the name and like the moniker and I was looking at some other cases and then I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna click into it. And then it was like, holy crap. Yeah, I don't remember if that one came up. I yeah was looking for...
01:14:50
Speaker
whatever but yeah yeah i think i picked my case after you you had kind of i think told me kind of what you were doing i was like okay i'll find something different and then yeah i found this one i was like holy crap i'm like mine's not so much murder yeah i'm like but also may i think i don't want to do any like ancient egypt shit that people in egypt are probably sick of Yeah, we've kind of talked about like the, I almost said the Spanx. but That's what we kept calling it. Yeah, that's what we kept calling it in that episode. All right. Yeah, we've talked about some good stuff. Yeah. That was on Patreon, I think. Wasn't it? No, maybe not.
01:15:36
Speaker
I cannot remember. It's been a thousand years. Who knows? I know. I'm to that point too where someone said the other day, I think it was Taylor on Creeps and Crimes was like, was that a Page Right episode? I don't know. You, you tell us guys like message me. ah Yeah. like Just can't remember. Oh, good Lord. Okay. I'll stop this one. It's being weird.
01:15:54
Speaker
e
01:16:26
Speaker
Scottish Murders is hosted by me, Dawn, and is a multi-award, shortlisted, victim-focused podcast, covering the murders of those from or living in Scotland. We tell each victim's story in a respectful, sensitive, unsensational and unopinionated way. So why not join us wherever you listen to your podcasts, and ensure you never miss an episode of Scottish Murders.
01:17:19
Speaker
ah I'm so tired to be gone. It's like you say for pets. Oh, big stretch. You say for what? Pets, animals. so oh Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, I do say that one. Yeah. With Fenrir. All right. Well,
01:17:47
Speaker
Fucking fruit blood. Get out of here. Die! You die!
01:17:55
Speaker
but Just start this half. Die! Die! People won't be writing in, you're the best, her most, what, nice true crime. Die! I hope you die! Compassionate. yeah oh god no i don't even know how yeah yours was rough uh true crime it's always rough so i'm like i don't even know how to start but like basically what i'm covering is egypt and this big problem it has of like sexual harassment ongoing and then also like mass sexual assault which is not a fun oh phrase
01:18:43
Speaker
Yeah. I don't know what I was so looking at. Yeah. It was like, you know, when you're just like, you don't just look up just murders or something and you try to look up crime, but you don't want just like crime statistics. So you like, I know I hate that crime plus Egypt or whatever. Like, I don't know what I put, but then it was like, yeah, sexual assault problems and all this and that. And I was like, damn, okay.
01:19:12
Speaker
yeah um have heard that people can be pushy in that region, but hadn't necessarily heard about um this problem facing people, especially during like protests and stuff. So we'll kind of get into that. yeah we'll get into Yeah, I feel like that's fair. I think we've talked about like,
01:19:34
Speaker
kind of the mob mentality thing. And yeah, how things that not necessarily like wouldn't happen um can get like hyped up and then- Escalate for sure. Yeah, escalate. people People see it as an opportunity and take advantage and yeah. Right. And it's like the whole like,
01:20:02
Speaker
almost even bystander effect where you're like, I'm just one person. If you were to fight against it, there's, there's a thousand people here. Nobody will, nobody will remember my face. I can do whatever I want. Right. Oh yeah. That the the anonymity. Exactly. Yeah. um Yeah, so like it's it's pretty rough. i so I started this one with um the query, does Egypt have a sexual violence epidemic, which I'm starting to wonder. um Yeah, there were a few articles. ah I did have some trouble even finding some of the ones I first looked up for sources. So as to your point earlier, I was like, yeah, it was kind of you. I was even trying to look up the same source I had earlier and I had a hard time finding it. was So that was weird.
01:20:53
Speaker
Um, but yeah, there's definitely a lot of information out there. So, uh, Oh yeah. Big trigger warning for mine. Obviously he's going to deal with them sexual assault and some rough stuff that might be tough to hear about and okay. Massive trigger warning there, I guess. And then obviously I'm just, um,
01:21:15
Speaker
Just a little white woman who's not a journalist who's coming at it from completely outside of the the context. Right? That's the thing. I know. It's like i I did some research, but it doesn't mean I know what I'm talking about. You want to point out a country and be like, you have this problem. You need to fix it. Right. Exactly. Except they're saying that too. Okay. So it's like been a amidst years of different ah protests, political unrest times. The scene for women and female presenting people like to be on the protest scene has been become terrifying and dangerous, especially in this one little place called Tahrir Square, which kind of reminds me of now that I think about it, like isn't Beijing where a lot of their protests and stuff they had Tiananmen Square, a lot of shit went down there. Were you like and tanks?
01:22:15
Speaker
I mean pictures versus people, I don't know, whatever. Yeah. But anyway, so it's like, uh, you know, a hub or whatever for all this, um, political activity.
01:22:27
Speaker
Um, and when I started doing my research, headlines would grab my, um, uh, attention, you know, that would say things like be the sexual assaults in one day, the other story of terrier and things like that.
01:22:45
Speaker
I think you go, wow, that's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, you know me. I always giggle when I'm like uncomfortable. So I know it might be tough for other people.
01:22:58
Speaker
um It's like Claire on Modern Family, when she tells the neighbor died and she can't stop smiling. And she's like, it's just a reaction. My face keeps happening. Yeah. We're like, you're weird. But yeah, it's just uncomfortable laughter, if you will. So these types of headlines paint a vivid and uncomfortable picture of the problems that Egypt's citizens are facing oftentimes. Like around a decade or so from, you know,
01:23:29
Speaker
Well, more than that, I guess it's been happening. But ah like since around 2011, um that's been called kind of the beginning of ah sort of a a revolution. Or I heard that different places called it the Arab Spring because it was different protests in these kind of Arab nations and stuff.
01:23:53
Speaker
um oh Yeah. Getting rid of the bad people in power too, right? Like that the protests. Yeah. A lot of that. Are they saying it like got worse since 2011? Yeah, I think that's kind of been when the spotlight's been on it more. But still, we don't hear anything about it here, right? Yeah, that's the thing. like As connect interconnected as the world seems at times, there's still so much that can slip by that you are completely unaware of if it's not happening like in your country or anything.
01:24:30
Speaker
Because it's not being fed to you through the different algorithms or whatever. Yeah, not being featured. It's yeah, it's whatever they want you to hear. Or if you live in Canada, it's no, no, we don't want to hear anything outside of Canada, right? So much so many more things are getting censored to us. All right. they Don't even get me started on like Facebook and stuff. I'm like, oh,
01:24:57
Speaker
Well, you can't trust any news, quote unquote, you read on Facebook. But anyway, no, that's a whole and nother story, isn't it? No, I mostly look at cute little animal videos. and Right. I just don't don't get your news only from a couple of sources like Facebook and Fox News.
01:25:17
Speaker
boom Okay, so this next one is a quote. ah Egypt is full of sexual harassment and people have become desensitized to it, but this is a step up, said Sariah Bagat, a woman's women's rights advocate and co-founder of Tahrir Bodyguard, a group that rescues women from assault. Okay. They're like, yeah, setting something up. They're trying to, I guess.
01:25:47
Speaker
I'm trying, I'm going to try and let this one have a hopeful note and not be all like, you know, sensationalizing the violence, but it's, it's a tough one. I'm not going to lie. It was like that. Was it the human rights lawyer I covered, I think in Mexico or somewhere? Yeah. The one that was the yeah suicide and it was like, was she fighting for her like daughter or someone that got killed close to her or something?
01:26:17
Speaker
I cannot quite remember but it's yeah it's like god damn it people just trying to make the world a better place and you gotta bring them down and exactly with their own like the only little spot in the world that you have yeah yeah it's crazy No, I remember that one though, that once you mentioned it, I'm like, oh yeah. Yeah, they're like, oh, she shot herself in the head, but the rifle or whatever is too long and also shot herself in like her leg. Yeah, like mob members or something that she thought were responsible for her kid's murder. I can't remember. I think she just had people she was representing that she was like trying to protect or something. Yeah. Oh, okay, okay, okay.
01:27:04
Speaker
yeah um yeah whichever that one was you guys let us know it was a good one give us an answer right like some fans do we can't remember shit which ver we just text each other have i covered this case is this name familiar to you i know and you're like i don't know let me check the website That's what I do. I have to check the tags on the website and be like, oh, it's there. I think I saw a thing on Spotify where you could search within one show and I was like, oh, this is perfect. This is so handy. Send it to me. I need that too. Yeah, everybody needs an automatic episode guide maker. Yeah, I like that too. Okay, so to finish out what she was saying,
01:27:56
Speaker
the ye women's right advocates, she said, we're talking about mob sexual assaults from stripping women and dragging them on the floor to rape. The causes that can help that go unchecked, I guess, are that they can be under reported as many sexual assaults are, and that the the the square itself that they mostly occur in has like less than adequate security.
01:28:27
Speaker
Okay. Is it like public kind of thing? Like it's just like an open area that anybody can walk into? Yeah, honestly, I didn't look much into the square itself, but I think it's just a downtown square that people can, you know, gather in or whatever. Okay.
01:28:48
Speaker
um So these instances seem sort of organized where like lines of men will push forward like sort of a walking wall to cut off a woman.
01:29:01
Speaker
from the rest of the herd, if you will. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay. Yeah. It's not just people getting grabbed and by like individuals. No. Yeah. shit Okay. Yeah. It's pretty scary. Yeah. Like I'm not trying to be like, Oh, you know what I mean? Like to sensationalize the scariness of it, but like, yeah, it seems pretty scary also.
01:29:26
Speaker
um So a little bit of background on the protests, ah what's been called the Arab Spring, according to um Lucy's boyfriend Britannica, from lying crime. The a wave of pro-democritors, democracy protests and uprisings that took place in the Middle East and North Africa, beginning in 2010 and 2011, challenging some of the region's entrenched authoritarian regimes.
01:29:54
Speaker
regime So, you know, yeah, I can see why they call it a revolution. It's like they're sick of those shit they're under. Yeah, the waves began when protests in Tunisia and Egypt toppled their regimes in quick succession, inspiring similar attempts in other Arab countries.
01:30:14
Speaker
Not every country saw success in the the protest movement, however, and demonstrators expressing their political and economic grievances were often met with violent crackdowns by their country's security forces. Yeah. And then like it has if you want detailed coverage of the Arab Spring Revolution in individual countries like Sea Jasmine Revolution Tunisia, Egypt Uprising of 2011, Yemen Uprising of 2011-12, Libya Revolt of 2011, and Syrian Civil War. So yeah, it occurred at a few different places, I guess. Yeah.
01:30:58
Speaker
um But yeah, so I started to take some effects. On January 25th, 2011, protests in Tahrir Square, quote, marked the explosion of the Arab Spring in Egypt and followed mass protests in Tunisia, which had calmed culminated in the flight of Tunisian President ah Zine al-Abidin Ben Ali from the country on January 14th.
01:31:25
Speaker
o He has a long fucking name. I think so. He's like, I'm out. I know they've ousted a few guys, which is pretty cool, but it's taken a lot of effort, I guess. And then also, ah oh yeah, so that was in, yeah, that was Tunisia. They ousted their guy.
01:31:48
Speaker
ah Sorry, and then after 18 more days of protests in Egypt, the much, I gather, unloved and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak ah was ousted on February 11, 2011. And he had had been in power for 30 years since 1981. Shouldn't be allowed. Come on. Right?
01:32:14
Speaker
longer than I've been alive at that point. Yeah. um This was the result of years of political unrest, arrest warrants issued for political activities in Egypt. So like people even trying to, I guess, speak out or whatever. Damn. Yeah, just suppressed. And many sources said this injustice led to anger. He cannot talk.
01:32:43
Speaker
It's okay. I couldn't. I couldn't either. I was messing up so much.
01:32:51
Speaker
It's like, if I try to go any like, faster, I don't know. I swear. This injustice led to anger, poverty and need all over the country. Oh, and this was a fun fact.
01:33:08
Speaker
Um, no I guess an emergency law of over 30 years meant that it meant that justice was impossible at any time. A civilian could be prosecuted in a closed military court with no defense. It was like, yikes. Um, and torture people perpetrating the assaults. Uh, it could not apply only to them. Yeah.
01:33:37
Speaker
yeah this just is really fucked up political activists come on ah at what time do you need to prosecute a civilian in a military court also like that's no damn I like read that and I went, I like made a noise and the cat looked over me and I was like, sorry, it's just like, this is really stupid. You're like, trust me, you would agree. Yeah. Yeah, I don't even think I bothered explaining to it. But I was like, he'd be like, wow. Yeah. yeah um So yeah, it said torture had become so widespread
01:34:17
Speaker
Extra judicial killings were commonplace. People lived in a country ruled by fear." End quote. Yeah. Is it, um... Not great. I'm trying to think. It might be like V for Vendetta or something that said like the people shouldn't be in fear of their government. The government should be in fear of the people. And it's like, that that's how I feel listening to this. It was like, come on, like.
01:34:46
Speaker
they're trying and like how many you said like another 18 days of protests it's like how long were they protesting and like and surprisingly as we there were 18 days where some of the least Yeah, violent. i Yeah, no, it's so crazy, though. But it's like, yeah, it's like, why can't the majority, if they're the downtrodden, rise up and take control over the the few that are like stomping them down or whatever? Yeah, yeah it's crazy that this stuff keeps happening.
01:35:22
Speaker
That's what elections are supposed to be. If if more people participated in elections in countries then... And I don't even know because I could not deep dive into more about the political situation that got them there than I did. Yeah, but it's like fair enough.
01:35:42
Speaker
Yeah, like how many checks and balances did they have in place if someone could be in power for 30 years there? and A lot of countries have like mandatory voting, like you have to vote and stuff. And I also think that's not a great way to do it. um It doesn't mean people are gonna vote informed, I feel like. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like here in North America, at least we have, like, certain, like voting criteria you need to meet, um like, like having the ID and all that kind of stuff. So making it mandatory yeah face penalties also isn't great. If somebody doesn't have those like forms of ID and everything, you don't want to like penalize them.
01:36:29
Speaker
If they're ready, like not able to provide ID for whatever reason. So yeah, it's so hard. At least we have here what.
01:36:40
Speaker
um I think Pat likes to say is the illusion of choice. yeah You feel like you can choose one or the other and it's going to make a difference, but maybe it's not true true democracy, but maybe it's better than what they have in the States with their electoral seats and all that. I think it's slightly better, but it's still it's still not great. No, it's still basically two parties, like the Conservatives and the Liberals and that kind of thing. yeah And nobody can get too far outside of
01:37:12
Speaker
their little bubbles or people won't vote for them because of like one stance on a certain issue. They'll be like, no, that's too crazy. I won't vote for them at all, even though I agree with everything else they say. Exactly. Yeah. We like.
01:37:28
Speaker
Anyway, yeah, I was gonna say maybe one set of NDP government and never the Green Party. And that's a fun one. It's kind of what it sounds like. No, environmental at least anyway. Marijuana? The marijuana? Elizabeth May. Elizabeth May, you have some marijuana? No. Was she the one from the Green Party? Anyway, shut up. I can't remember. I think so. I'll have to ask Pat. He's been the one that's watching see whatever it is, the political channel in Canada. I'm like, go discuss it with my brother. I don't care. Oh, I don't mean that. I just mean once you're not working your ass off every day to make yeah money, then you care more about that stuff that's happening. Yeah, you can watch eight hours of YouTube videos a day about once you're not working. Yeah.
01:38:27
Speaker
okay the uh sorry i hope that didn't sound too mean but i was mostly talking about pat yeah it was a roast he doesn't know what happened he's already asleep i think i could hear him snoring anyway
01:38:49
Speaker
Okay. So these planned protests this one year. Yeah. The, the 2011, I think it's the year kind of became a huge problem, I guess. I don't know.
Protests and Violence in Egypt
01:39:02
Speaker
Um, but they began in Egypt on January 25th. And that was this planned day because it's like national police day. So they had planned protests to happen then. Fair. Fucking fruit fly.
01:39:19
Speaker
You die! Die! It's the fly. The kill count for fruit flies is two on my segment already.
01:39:33
Speaker
oh I might catch another one of my wine now. All right, so they started on January 25th and then well into the third day of ah protests, I guess. Tensions sparked off enough skirmishes that they eventually dubbed this day as the Friday of Anger. Oh, I know. I don't know exactly what happened that day, but I just thought that was bad enough. They gave it a name anger. Yeah. Once something gets named.
01:40:09
Speaker
Should be like a bonus track on the St. Anger album of Metallica that I can listen to when I'm coming home on Friday night and I just can't wait to get home and have the car. This is the Friday of Anger!
01:40:25
Speaker
oh St. Anger is a good album. Okay, so that day there were chants of Muparak leave, which was the president's name. So Those were filling the air amidst pushback from pro ah-presidential or Mubarak supporters and police. um So the police aren't, I gather, always helpful during these protests. No, a lot of times they make things worse. Exasperate, yeah.
01:41:00
Speaker
now
01:41:03
Speaker
It's unfortunate. I'm sure they're put in a tough spot, but like, I don't know. Yeah, there's got to be a better way. Yeah, I'm sure like they get ordered to be there. It's not. And then like. Yeah, it's like go show they're like you kind of stand between them all be in the line of fire from both sides and and keep the peace. Yeah. Yeah.
01:41:30
Speaker
So during a clash, they eventually dubbed the Battle of the Camel. um oh Projectiles flew through the air, including stones, glass, Molotov cocktails, and chairs even. What are we, WWE?
01:41:47
Speaker
He totally was like, it's table your table hairs here a table A table of chairs. A cage just like gets dropped. Oh of my god, the cage matches. It's been so long since I watched it. Oh, I did. We did watch the, um,
01:42:16
Speaker
That's not the dark side of the ring. There's a documentary ah out more about Vince McMahon right now that we watched that was really good. I can't remember. It's just called McMahon or something, but whatever it was interesting.
01:42:34
Speaker
Um, anyways, the article of the, The author of the one article I was reading that was detailing this um one protest, like recalled an actual anecdote about the days he had spent there with his brother. He gave the he gave the name of the brother at one point, but I don't know, it was Noud Noud or something like that. But his brother got hit with a um like pellet of some kind, so not an actual bullet, but some sort of riot.
01:43:10
Speaker
something they use like they were bullets sometimes i think it might have been something like that or like when they say pellet i think maybe i think of more like a baby gun i don't know damn but not a real like bullet so they got sent to the first aid tent and while being attended to a man standing next to the brothers got hit with an actual molotov cocktail and he was lit on fire so yeah immediately the men that were closest to him including the brothers rushed over to him to help extinguish the flames and they basically like just embraced him as much as they could and all just kind of like patted it right until it was out and smothered and i was like oh my god they gave him the hug of life yeah that's crazy hug the fire out i don't think i'd be brave enough to hug a stranger that's on fire
01:44:08
Speaker
It's crazy. I feel like here's my sweater. I can put that on pat pat but and stuther it That way but I'm not gonna do it with my actual body Hugging I know it must have been pure instinct honestly, yeah, I Don't know um But at this point yeah confusion and chaos is rained everywhere there was reports of killings in the square ah that were like rumors that were spread elsewhere that were then found to be untrue so say like someone's in the square protesting and then like their mom hears that they die and they're like no no i'm here i'm still here but i'm fine it was like oh that kind of misinformation and rumors yeah i don't know why people trying to start stuff then
01:45:02
Speaker
And they weren't leaving like so the people that are protesting are sitting there. Some of them are wounded. They're not sleeping. They're keeping vigil. They're just like, we fucking go to stay here until this president gets out. I guess I don't know. I'm like good for them. They really get it in. Yeah, man. It's like,
01:45:21
Speaker
I think however for once that they were going to flee America if Trump got elected, they're all just like, well, no offense because obviously most people were joking, but I'm like. It's like what? ah Since he got elected the second time, it's been Britney Spears, Ellen DeGeneres, and somebody else, didn't they move? Oh, threatened to leave?
01:45:47
Speaker
No, but that's like moved and it's kind of, I don't know. Pretty Spears, I guess, is because of the paparazzi. And then I can't remember why Ellen said that they moved, but it was just kind of like, hah that was within days. Interesting.
01:46:06
Speaker
so like hu and
01:46:11
Speaker
All I know is Brittany's most recent ex there. She's going to be on The Traitors US season three come January. And everyone's like, why? You know, when they say that they have like celebrities, is they have like Zac Efron's brother coming on. I'm like, who? He has a brother? Dylan Efron? I'll just take regular people playing these reality games. Anyway. Yeah.
01:46:39
Speaker
Like if you want money, go ask your brother. You don't need to show up on this reality show. He can get you a spot on whatever TV show he has. Damn. Oh my God. Okay, so where was I?
01:47:01
Speaker
but but
01:47:03
Speaker
Oh yeah, the protests came to ah cries of joy when the president Mubarak's departure was finally announced. oh yeah After yeah many days of them sitting there. So they felt it was the end of a regime, a new start, ah but of course progress is slow. And as we know, you might put out one fire just to find another. Or a worse one. Sometimes that happens. Yeah.
01:47:36
Speaker
More protests begin ah by 2013. They were beginning against President Mohammed Morsi. Different president. okay So the Human Rights Watch said that in yeah and in four days mobs sexually assaulted and in some cases raped at least 91 women. Damn. In four days?
01:48:04
Speaker
Again, the numbers were just astronomical. Yeah. um So they're like, could this just be like random thugs or different people acting alone? No. Because it doesn't seem like it's that. No. Look at any other mob in the world. It's like one per however many tens of thousands. I mean, yeah, right? like Not like 25 people a day.
01:48:34
Speaker
get into mobs and yeah sometimes we do stupid shit like burn down buildings and stuff but do we all get into mobs and be like yeah let's all like rape somebody like it's just not where most people's minds go to them yeah I don't know it's it's rough again with the trigger warning because you know there's some details about how bad the attacks got Um, ah some people had injuries so bad that the wounds required surgical intervention because weapons had been used in the attacks, like chains, sticks, knives, chairs, again, like we're in a wrestling match or something. Oh, um, one woman's harrowing account said, suddenly I was surrounded by hundreds of men in a circle that was getting smaller and smaller around me.
01:49:30
Speaker
At the same time, they were touching and groping me everywhere, and there were so many hands under my shirt and inside my pants. Like, then what? This guy's never seen a woman before, like... I don't know! What is the mob mentality here? I don't feel like I know any men that would... Go group your wife, like, or your girlfriend. Where are they?
01:49:55
Speaker
Yeah, sadly, it seems to me sort of ingrained in their culture. But again, what the fuck do I know? But the one ah lady we mentioned earlier, the women's right advocate,
01:50:09
Speaker
um ah look the last name of Bagat, I don't have her first name here, said, we call it the Circle of Hell. Because she's also come very close to meeting the same fate. Yeah. Circle of Hell. Isn't that nice?
01:50:26
Speaker
Um, there's some groups that are now activists fighting against these type of mass assaults. There's the Operation Anti-Sexual Harassment or the Op Antish, it's called for short. Um, and the Tahrir Bodyguard Group, which both use squads to patrol and assist victims like on the ground, out and about.
01:50:53
Speaker
Damn. Like patrol groups of 15 people or so sent out. Like, I don't know. I don't know if during protests or at night or whatever, but sometimes they're armed with clubs. Sometimes they can be formed. Okay. I was like, these people gotta be armed. Right? You're just going to go up against them. Some of them have flamethrowers. That's what one thing says. Love that. Yes.
01:51:18
Speaker
but I did think of Dwight on the office he had like that little group that like Jim comes back I forgot something and they have like they're like protectors of the night or something I can't remember it's like Dwight's little group um but yeah they're like super on the on the ground boots on the ground they fight off attackers or rapists If they see things going down, they help the women. ah They give the women clothing. They get them to a safe house. um Occasionally, they're like followed to the safe house where they have to keep protecting the person as people try to break down the safe house doors and like all this crazy stuff. I would melt their fucking face. Be like, this is my flamethrower. It wants to meet you. She is. She's ready to join the group.
01:52:10
Speaker
Oh yeah.
01:52:14
Speaker
um But that's really cool. Like they need that because these groups are assaulting people. So it's groups of attack rooms already. I know. God damn. Was it, have you heard about this or is this like some sort of urban legend thing? Was it in Africa too? I think maybe more so in like South Africa where people had I don't know like a I don't know thing you could insert that had like teeth that would go one way so that basically if like somebody was raping you and they inserted their penis into you ah this these barbs would like dig into the penis and it like basically would get stuck
01:53:06
Speaker
to your penis and you would have to go to the hospital to get it taken off. And then it would be like, yeah, cause you fucking raped me. Like. yeah I feel like, no, I feel like this, ah maybe I've heard of some crazy chastity belt situations, but nothing that. I feel like I've literally even seen pictures of it where they're like, no, literally women are walking around with this, like inside them so that if they get raped, that that is now stuck on you and you like, you get away. Like it's crazy.
01:53:36
Speaker
So crazy. Yeah, damn. To think the lengths that you would have to go through is just a lot. Yeah. Whoo. I'll see if I can find it. OK. Guys, I'm having a hard time. OK, I got to get through this. it's I'm sorry. It's so rough.
01:54:01
Speaker
but Um.
01:54:07
Speaker
Yeah, so there's definitely been ah problems. The lack of security is one and the culture I would hesitate to say or or what I. Oh my fucking. Headphones want me to charge them. um A general lack of empathy remains, I would say, in the culture. Sorry, I'm just switching my headphones.
01:54:40
Speaker
It's not good historically. A UN n survey from April of 2013 said that 99.3% of Egyptian women report having been sexually harassed in their lifetime. So like all of them, basically. And 91% report feeling unsafe on the streets in general. So not great. Yeah. I mean, I've heard. What? No.
01:55:10
Speaker
No, I don't think so either. It's also not properly defined under the law, sexually sexual harassment.
01:55:21
Speaker
um So that's not great, but like, even in the culture, a person making a report to police might not end up being bullied or harassed by the officers officers themselves, which is just awful.
01:55:37
Speaker
so it's like the old boy boys club what were you wearing like that sort of thing yeah they kind of get i found a picture of it i definitely it did it did say apparently it's called rape x it's south african i guess it's considered an anti-rape condom oh my god it's basically a condom with barbed teeth inside And it literally like, it has three strips and it literally like fish hooks in and then you cannot pull the device off. It has to be surgically like removed, like it has to be cut off. That's like punctures you all over. But you'd have to wear that all the time. Yeah, they have it inside themselves. Wow. Yeah, just to walk around and stuff. Yeah.
01:56:30
Speaker
You gotta wonder if it's that prevalent that they gotta make.
01:56:37
Speaker
Like armor. ah chip Modern day chastity belts. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I guess there's like a lot of stuff against it because technically you still need to be like assaulted for like this to come into a effect where like people are trying to focus on more like like fully preventative that prevents them from like having contact with you at all.
01:57:03
Speaker
so but it's like, damn. I'm so fucked up. It shouldn't have to come to that. No, but I remember seeing pictures of it. I see it every and every once in a while and it's like, holy shit. I was like, yeah, I forget that exists. like No, I've never seen that particular one. Yeah. That's crazy. That's what I was thinking of. And it was just like, damn, like you're literally being surrounded by 100 people. That wouldn't help you there. but I mean, you know, yeah, it is just it's part of the sadness where it's like, you got to make something that we have to wear. It's like, right. You know, what if a guys had to walk around wearing a cup all the time so that people wouldn't kick them in the nuts? You know what I mean?
01:57:50
Speaker
What if they had to wear fire resistant clothing so that me and my flamethrower... That's right. Fuck their shit up. Yeah, just unsuspecting people on the street. Flamethrower. Damn.
01:58:10
Speaker
So one Lila L. Garettley, a 30-year-old teacher who was sexually harassed and assaulted on a Cairo bridge, ah had a unique experience where there was people passing by and kind of offered their advice, but instead of really helping her so much, they just told her not to pursue charges of the sexual assault. What?
01:58:35
Speaker
ah yeah It was said that the passers-by said things like, what did he actually do? And that they said, I should leave it and just let it go. Because if you're a decent girl, you're expected to leave it alone. Oh, wow. So you're just going to accept it. That's what being easy means, letting it happen. OK. I think that's some of the culture that helps, hurts these cases. Yeah.
01:59:04
Speaker
But she refused to back down. She did go after the perpetrator in this crime and eventually won, which apparently made her one of only six women at the time of that article, ah so like 2013, to successfully prosecute a man for harassment in Egypt. One of six. Damn. Good for her. Yeah.
01:59:28
Speaker
um It said, even then the conviction was a legal fudge for mere physical assault rather than anything sexual, and her harasser was sentenced to jail in absentia, having been allowed to leave custody. Police have it made no serious attempts to track him down.
01:59:48
Speaker
But you know what, the fact that the case even went through and he was charged means something, even if... Right? Yeah. Even if you act like you don't care, yeah. Yeah, it still means something.
02:00:10
Speaker
Um, the problem is that the state has been condoning these crimes, said Corollos. There's no accountability whatsoever. There has also been zero efforts by the government to change how the media or the education system deals with the problem." End quote. Yeah. It happens everywhere, unfortunately. Yeah, you can't just put a Band-Aid on it. um No, everything is such a slow process.
02:00:39
Speaker
and It's true.
Efforts to Combat Sexual Harassment in Egypt
02:00:41
Speaker
It said, Egypt's National Council for Women is working with the country's Interior Ministry to set up a system where women can report sexual harassment to a specialized team of female police officers yes so that their cases might be taken more seriously. Exactly. So then they don't get sexually harassed and assaulted by the police because that have that happens in the US s and here I'm sure too.
02:01:07
Speaker
Exactly. Or even just just made fun of. It's just not cool. Yeah, exactly. The group has also put proposed new legislation to Egypt's cabinet that specifically outlaws sexual harassment.
02:01:23
Speaker
But changes in power and things of that nature stall the process all the time. Fighting back has always been a slog, a big sort of uphill battle. um And even though it they you know it feels like eyes have been on the problem. like We didn't know about it. I haven't heard about it. It's obviously still ongoing. but which sucks and trying to get word out there so yeah we're gonna do what we can um but like it's crazy they're like as as far back as 2011 it was apparently making news when you know there was even the incident that was called the blue bra incident of 2011 um cute people needing to have cute names for things for some reason i don't know yeah
02:02:17
Speaker
that day in December, 2011, quote, a woman anti harassment activists call sit al banat or the best of all girls was stripped of her abaya and dragged through the street by army officers. Wow. It's apparently pretty rough. Um, other sources I read said should that video showed her being stomped in the chest by army officers.
02:02:48
Speaker
Damn. Clearly she was very severely mistreated by them. Yeah. And yet, like that incident didn't really spark anything. It's kind of crazy.
02:03:04
Speaker
And obviously more minor cases are still occurring a or like from what I've alleged, obviously. ah But the amount is sort of staggering. There's like mass molestation, there's groping, there's grabbing, there's groups penetrating people with fingers and things. It's a lot.
02:03:26
Speaker
More media attention was garnered after 19 more women were assaulted in the January 25th, 2013 protests.
02:03:38
Speaker
and Sorry, we can't talk.
02:03:42
Speaker
Quote, in the June 30th, 2013, anti-mercy demonstrations, 46 women were assaulted. That night, Ayman Najee, a founder of the group Against Harassment, she participated in the rescue of a woman trapped with her brother in a room in the Arab League building in Tahrir Square.
02:04:02
Speaker
As he wrote in a Facebook note, the woman said that the people in the room had assaulted her and she felt she lost her virginity. As activists tried to lift another woman over a fence to safety, men pulled off her clothes while others took pictures with their phones. Wow.
02:04:20
Speaker
area ah That's quite a picture it paints to me. It's fucked up. trying to arrest her like actively and you're trying to like what get a picture for fucking YouTube I think that one the video of the blue bra incident got uploaded to YouTube or one of those ones and they're like YouTube can you at least do something about it they're like oh yeah let's take down the videos where the people can be identified by their faces you're like okay thanks great
02:04:57
Speaker
well how about we don't how about we have them arrested ah yeah how about we take down all the videos at least i don't know damn um uh yeah a tea seller tried to repel the attackers by spraying boiling water at them scalding naji as the tea seller could not distinguish rescuers from attackers oh okay On July 3rd, as Mercy was removed from power, Op Antish, which was one of those ah groups of resistance, you know, fighters or whatever, called for extra support due to the crowds. In the 18 days leading up to that day, there had been hardly any assaults reported, but then- Hardly any doesn't mean zero. No, but it was weird how they were like all said it was like a
02:05:51
Speaker
A quiet before the storm, a calm before the storm, if you will. Yeah. They went home to rest up for the big day. Exactly. Yeah, we have to wait till the day that he's actually removed from power so that then there can be 80 reports of assault that day.
02:06:10
Speaker
Again, trigger warning. Then that night, CBS correspondent Laura lara Logan was attacked by a large group of men, leaving her clothing torn and herself herself having been penetrated against her will. Jesus. Another attack was described in an interview with CNN. She said that there were about 50 men all ages. They stripped her naked. They had said that the people in the room had assaulted her, had fingers everywhere. They pinned her down on the floor.
02:06:42
Speaker
Uh, yeah, it's rough. I'm sorry. I don't mean to rush through it, but it it is tough to read. With a larger protest scheduled for June 8th, the Egyptian Institute for personal rights issued a statement that the unprecedented rates of assault suggested our intentional attempts to deter women from protesting.
02:07:04
Speaker
I mean, I mean, They don't feel safe to protest if they're going to get fucking assaulted. yeah i' go to see This was co-signed by 19 other organizations. The statement called for increased respect for the safety of female demonstrators in the next day's protest. So that was specifically for the protest scheduled for June 8th in Egypt.
02:07:32
Speaker
um Yet in a march organized for June 8 to combat these issues, it was overwhelmed by harassers. They can't even march against it because they're just going to get harassed. and Oh yeah. That's how it works. It's just awful.
02:07:47
Speaker
um And I was like, I don't know, it's going to take something more than these demonstrations because it's the demonstrations where they're getting attacked. like they're getting more bold and brazen and unless there's ah more patrol groups or female police groups or whatever like on the ground it's gonna keep happening I think yeah um and yeah just another attack that had some horrible details but just like it's so scary this and this one had her name so I was like interested because I was able to find a name in mine where
02:08:29
Speaker
With one of her victims, yours was like all like, you know, shut up or whatever. yeah But this one lady named Yasmine Al Barrami on November 22nd was subjected to a brutal attack where she was dragged down the street. Her pants were cut off with knives. And at one point she was down on the ground and her hair was trapped under the car wheel of a car that had been driving by or whatever.
02:08:57
Speaker
Then they put her on the car hood and drove off claiming that she had a bomb strapped to her and that's why nobody could get near her. And it wasn't fricking discovered until someone eventually said, where the fuck is the bomb? And she was rescued at that point. Oh my God. That was pretty horrible.
02:09:19
Speaker
ah Almost done. A first attempt to change the law supported by AMR, how do you say that, emir? here Hemzawi failed. The ruling party maintained that women participating in rallies were personally personallyly responsible for such incidents.
02:09:45
Speaker
Wow. Collective. Fuck you.
02:09:49
Speaker
um In March of 2013, the Muslim Brotherhood opposed the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, arguing that it would lead to the disintegration of society.
02:10:01
Speaker
oh Yeah, if we can't assault women, then society will crumble? What? If we can, yes. Let us assault our women. Oh my god. Men's rights matter. Jesus Christ. oh that Yeah.
02:10:22
Speaker
Sorry, it then it said the law was changed after a female law student at the Cairo University College of Law was sexually assaulted by a large group of men on campus in March 2014, and had to be escorted to safety by security guards. God damn it. Egyptian streets called the attention that followed the 2014 Cairo Hotel gang rape case, a me too movement moment, like hashtag me too. Yeah.
Notable Cases and Cultural Reflections on Sexual Violence
02:10:51
Speaker
The 2014 Fairmont Hotel gang rape concerned a young woman who had been drugged and raped by a group of young men from wealthy families. The case attracted wide social media and mainstream media attention leading to the extradition of three of the accused men from Lebanon back to Egypt in September 2020.
02:11:11
Speaker
okay That's good. yeah New President Abdul Fatah Al-Sisi, the former armed forces chief who removed elected President Mohammed Morsi from power, has not managed to curtail this bad behavior and extreme evil mob mentality. My words. yeah He seems to be part of this age old problem. In fact, he allowed a quote unquote virginity test to be performed by soldiers on female detainees.
02:11:43
Speaker
even though his campaign claimed it was going to crack down on sexual violence. Why? Why is that necessary? Tell me why this needs to be something where you, oh, we're going to pat them now and not have to see their verb a virgin. No. Yeah. Um, according to, uh, that, uh, website or group called rain, not my daughter, but the against sexual rape and incest, you know, that that one. Okay, yeah it's like, yeah, it's the acronym. But they said, there are groups working to change the culture of you impunity for sexual violence in Egypt. Nazra for hang on. Does this make sense?
02:12:29
Speaker
Yes, there are groups. where Okay, so the groups working are like Nazra for Feminist Studies, Al Shabaab Institution, Medicine Sans Frontieres, Care International, Assault Police, and the Center for Egyptian Women's Legal Assistance are all pushing to establish comprehensive post-rape care for survivors.
02:12:49
Speaker
Funding for this important work is critical as many of these organizations operate in a country where even a crime as heinous and documented as the Fairmont gang rape case go unprosecuted. Damn. And that is my case and I'm sorry if it's too much and I'm sorry if it's not enough. It's wild.
02:13:13
Speaker
It is. I had no idea. None.
02:13:19
Speaker
Like I think we've talked about, well, maybe we haven't talked about, but like other, a lot of other countries and stuff seem to have a lot of assaults and stuff, unfortunately. Cause they don't have like quite the same protection and laws and everything, but that's crazy. I didn't think it would be at that level in some places. No, it's true country to country. There's so many different things people are like.
02:13:50
Speaker
oh what in Canada you guys don't give as many years for like a murder or whatever and sometimes it seems that way so like I get it like depending on what country you're in like the laws can seem more lax but this one seems like such a big problem there that it's like yeah you know how how has it not been made more mainstream I wish we had heard more about it somehow and where's like the you know like most of the time you have in certain things you'll have like men who are helping like stand up for stuff even if they're the a lot of times the ones like that are the perpetrators of it there's like groups of men that are like helping and standing ups like good true why is that not happening or anything why aren't they helping as much yeah with like the patrolling the groups
02:14:45
Speaker
the protection groups, all that kind of stuff. why Why can't they be part of that? Whereas the people that are like wanting to be a part of that, but you normally see that and this seems to have none of that at all. right No, I agree. I was only able to find a little bit on some of the groups that were fighting back and like although you know yeah the there were some crazy brave stories with like the one guy that was trying to help and then he gets sprayed in the face with the boiling water whatever that they were trying to do against the attackers it's like it sucks it's just like it seems like whatever's happening to help combat it it's just not enough yeah it's more flamethrowers let's issue flamethrowers
02:15:33
Speaker
ah That's the new merge. More flamethrowers. Plus just get a divorce for all those yeah ah murdery men and other spouses. A flamethrower in every woman's hand in Egypt.
02:15:49
Speaker
so That's our political stance. That's our what's the campaign thing we're going to run on. That's my official political stance. Arm every woman in Egypt with a flamethrower. Elect us. We're going to put the flamethrower in the hands of every woman everywhere. As soon as they get born, you get a flamethrower.
02:16:11
Speaker
we like here's Here's your doll. As soon as you're old enough to walk, we'll start measuring you for your tiny baby flamethrower.
02:16:24
Speaker
But if I could also get ahold of that gun from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy where you shoot someone and they immediately understand your fucking perspective and feelings. Oh my god, that would be worth so much money.
02:16:36
Speaker
Right? We'll shoot every single president. That's what we need to do. I feel like it would resolve so many conflicts. It would resolve literally every conflict in the world. It's all Hermione telling Ron.
02:16:53
Speaker
Of course, she can feel all those feelings at once. She doesn't have an emotional range of a teaspoon. She's talking about how Cho could be like sad about Cedric Diggory, but also be attracted to Harriet. Oh my God, how can girls feel that many feelings at once? Because we can't. It's two feelings. How can they feel them both? Yeah. Oh my God.
02:17:17
Speaker
Anyway, sorry about that, guys. It was very depressing, but I tried to keep myself serious enough. I thought mine was going to be the bummer. Oh my god, they were so bad. Damn. You kept eluding. I thought yours was going to be like even worse because you were just like, oh, and he does so many bad things. And I was like, I was kind of like waiting for like a detailed dump of like the horror. And then I was like, oh, OK. I didn't have to like. I feel like it's probably out there, but it was like, I don't want to list a bunch of torture right now.
02:17:47
Speaker
fine by me. moment I did like summary. I was like, Oh, that's a lot of like nail ripping. Okay. So he did nail, he ripped nails off. I was like, okay, some strangulation. It's like, I'm not gonna list all of these every time. It's like, God damn. Yeah. I think I read for somebody that was like the worst scene of Supernatural when Sam gets his fingernails ripped out by Someone, I don't remember who, they get tortured a lot to be rare, but yeah yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot. They get stabbed, they get shot, they die every second episode, like come on. The tropes are strong with that one. And come back in new and interesting, more interesting ways every time.
02:18:35
Speaker
It's like when people watch Outlander and they're like, what? It's been three episodes and Claire got separated from Jamie. Oh no. I'm like, yeah. It They did that on other shows too. I was just like, Oh my God. I started watching a little bit of Grace and Frankie. I don't know if I told you. You liked that one. I really want to rewatch that show. It's so cute. So good. I,
02:19:02
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a cute little like heartwarming show. Yeah, I knew that you said it was good. And so I knew it was gonna be
Conclusion with Pop Culture Reference
02:19:10
Speaker
funny. And then I just had to be in the mood to like start a new show. And what Pat was away last weekend. And then I started that and I also watched a like season or two of only murders in the building, which was also really good. Okay, I haven't watched that.
02:19:26
Speaker
It was ah Disney Plus, I think, and they like they bond because they all listen to the same like true crime podcast before the murders start happening in their building. So it's very like podcast or comic. Yeah, I heard that. Yeah. Yeah. ah Nice. They're like, oh no, we suck this season. I'm like, yeah, you do. It's cute. Oh. But anyway.
02:19:55
Speaker
Anyway, that's all I got. We had to end on a happier note. Come on. Hell yeah. What are we talking about next week? Oh, yeah, we did decide.
02:20:07
Speaker
um
02:20:11
Speaker
Doppelgangers and the like. So yeah, get ready for some. What's another word? Shape shifters, doppelgangers?
02:20:23
Speaker
Whatever. People that can take on your, yeah that kind of shit. Yeah. That can mimic you. So it'll be good, I think. Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I think it's been on my list for, I don't know, probably at least a year or two. Good Lord, who knows? It's been a long time.
02:20:47
Speaker
All right. Well, until next week, keep it cryptic. yeah but Bye! by