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Tin Cup (with writer/director Ron Shelton)
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Today we break down the most iconic 12 in fictional golf movies with writer/director Ron Shelton (Tin Cup, Bull Durham, White Men Can't Jump). We learn how this is secretly a western, how Costner didn't want to do it, and how much of it is based on a real PGA pro who's actually in the movie!
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of 'Tin Cup'
00:00:01
Speaker
Is the best player to never hit the big time. It's an easy game, this guy. But ever since he met Dr. Molly Griswold... I think I'm in love with you. What? He's been changing his whole approach. I find him mildly attractive when he's obnoxious and arrogant like this. That's his best side. From the creator of Bulldura. Kind of like the old days, isn't Kevin Costner, Rene Russo. I highly recommend The Shovel.
00:00:23
Speaker
Tin Cup. Rated R. Starts Friday, August 16th. Ah, that's great. Yeah. What's not to love? Movie Life Crisis season six episode eight, 10 cup.
Interview Teaser with Ron Shelton
00:00:37
Speaker
We're gonna ah kind of speed run a little bit of our regular episode stuff. Cause we interviewed writer director Ron Shelton and we want to include as much of that interview as possible.
00:00:47
Speaker
Amazing. So thanks again. Yeah. Super fun talking to a guy who wrote and directed some of our favorite sports movies. Yeah, dude. And this is mid nineties, like sports comedy. Boom. This is like when it was really, it was kicking.
00:01:02
Speaker
Yeah. So let's jump right in, man. Give us a synopsis. All right.
Plot and Reception of 'Tin Cup'
00:01:06
Speaker
Synopsis. A gifted golfer screw up, gets one last shot at glory, falls for the wrong woman at exactly the wrong time, and turns a major championship into a referendum on ego, fear, and legend.
00:01:18
Speaker
Yeah. Budget, $45 million. dollars ah Gross, million. That's all right. Number 29 of the year, top 30 between Primal Fear and Sleepers, all told, pretty good.
00:01:29
Speaker
Yeah. Probably probably a little bit disappointing for Warner Brothers, the studio, based on ah Ron Shelton's previous movies. um Kevin Costner is a huge star, but is also just coming off Waterworld, so maybe a little bit of... like People forget how much backlash Waterworld got, even though we did it on the podcast last year, and it's better than you remember. yeah I've got the novelization if anyone's interested. But yeah, but this is a movie i think that probably had ah had real legs on VHS because I know that's how I watched it. And I think I owned a copy of this from probably like 97 up until right now.
00:02:06
Speaker
You don't have it on DVD? This is the one I want. I like these rom-coms. I had it on VHS and then I have it on DVD too. Yeah. Yeah, this is one of the ones you could just put on. yeah um Just feel good, sports, rom-com, comedy. what's Yeah, what's not to love?
00:02:23
Speaker
yeah Doesn't have a happy
Ron Shelton's Sequel Idea: Mutant Armadillo
00:02:24
Speaker
ending? Awards? does it? Kevin Costner receives a Golden Globe nomination for Best Actor. But it's hard because you're not going to win because it's a motion picture, musical, or a comedy, and those never win big things.
00:02:38
Speaker
No. He's great in this. Wonderful. s Sequels and spinoffs? None. Although Ron Shelton did just tell us that he's got a great treatment for a 10 cup too, if he can get anybody to make it. I don't know. What are we waiting around for? Let's do that. Yeah. Who's who's listening to this that has enough money to make that happen? Let's do I've got a pitch. I've got a pitch for it. you guys are gonna I think you're going to like it.
00:02:59
Speaker
It's Kevin Costner. he's He owns a much nicer driving range. He's married to Dr. Molly Griswold, Rene Russo, Kevin Costner, Rene Russo, still great casting. And he's going to take a young prodigy and he's going to train him to play golf. But twist, the young prodigy is a humanoid sized mutant armadillo. So now we get, that's what we call a four quadrant movie right there. I'm just saying. thought for sure you were going to say it's David Sims, Don Johnson's kid.
00:03:28
Speaker
I mean, I like that too. That's probably a better idea, but I'm just saying four quadrant movie. Mutant armadillo golfer with star power. I think we could do it. Oh, man. that's When I think of a big armadillo, all I think of is necessary roughness. That mascot with the big cowboy hat.
00:03:47
Speaker
I'm a liar. Fumbaya, Fumbarooski. the um Yeah, man. Do you remember when you first saw this? I had to have i don't had to have seen this right when it came out. Summertime? like Dude, this is yeah this is Kevin Costner's in a movie. My mom's like, let's go see it.
00:04:05
Speaker
yeah i Because I can remember they had enough of the sexy time for me to feel awkward about it, but not like I can't sit next to my mom and watch it. Right, right.
00:04:16
Speaker
By the way, the tagline on the poster I'm looking at right now says, Kevin Costner, Rene Russo, 10 cup. And then above 10 cup, it says, golf pro, love amateur. That's great.
00:04:28
Speaker
I don't know who wrote the tagline, but that's great. Oh, man. I like how all the posters have him in a pair of what looks like boxers and a wife beater. Yeah.
00:04:39
Speaker
Yeah. And his like kind of backwards hat, but like not like my backwards hat. His is like kind of like kind of off kilter a little bit. He just he just turns it around. it's all it's natural. It's just how it lands. It's just how it happens like that. Yeah, man.
00:04:50
Speaker
OK, let's do ah let's do ratings. One to ten. No sevens. Where's this one? Where's this one land? Dude, this is a solid nine for me. Yeah. There's nothing that I don't remember liking about it that I didn't like still about it.
00:05:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
Blend of Romantic Comedy and Sports in 'Tin Cup'
00:05:06
Speaker
So yeah, nine. Dude, it's a freaking rom-com. with that We don't get those anymore. And it's heavy on the rom and heavy on the com. And I like both of that. And you do the vehicle that you're giving it to me is is sports. And it's a sport that somebody that's old and white and fat can play? Like, come on.
00:05:26
Speaker
How many things can you do all for me at once? Yeah, this is – and this is – because I'm trying to think of like – there are plenty of other kind of loosely sports movies that have a romantic element. This, I think, is maybe threads the needle as well or better than any of them where it's like half rom-com, half sports movie. ah a lot of them are like – Like, what's the other Kevin Costner movie when Clear the Mechanism, for love of the game? Oh, for the love of the game. Too much ROM, not enough baseball. So, like, it's hard to, like, get them both in there, but this one freaking nails it. Yeah.
00:05:59
Speaker
I don't like when it's sports and ROM, but no com, though. Yes. Don't like that either. Yeah. yeah got it You gotta thread the needle. They do that sometimes. This one does that really well. The casting is great. Kevin Costner, it's i I said it to Ron Shelton. I think it's an underrated performance. He's really funny.
00:06:17
Speaker
He's totally believable. He's this like kind of middle-aged, driving range loser who's like teaching people how to play golf while wearing flip-flops with armadillos everywhere. It's freaking great. He's like eating hot dogs out of a jar.
00:06:29
Speaker
He just threw that in a spa. He's just got a freaking inflatable pool outside of his Winnebago that he lives in with Cheech. That he lives in, yeah. God.
00:06:39
Speaker
Cheech Marin, freaking Don Johnson, ah Gary McCord, Jim Nance, a bunch of like golf cameos. Yeah. It's got so many good scenes. It's got so many quotable lines.
00:06:51
Speaker
um I gave it an
Discussion on Film Length and Key Scenes
00:06:53
Speaker
8 out of 10. Nice. nice It hits the eights for me for a couple of reasons. One is I don't love the music. I never thought the music fit with the movie in certain places. There's a couple of song choices. What about that Kebmo jam, though?
00:07:06
Speaker
I like Kebmo. That's a great one. And the score is pretty good, but there's a couple of like song cues. and I'm like, oh God, I don't like that one that much. And yeah the other thing, 138 minutes. A little bit long. a little bit too long Really? yes There's not a lot that I would take out.
00:07:22
Speaker
Because I start thinking about it, and I'm like the like, the stuff that I could cut out, yeah I could cut out when he and Romeo, his buddy slash caddy, played by Cheech Marin, go with farm implements to play a guy with a rake, a shovel, and a baseball bat to win ah win back his money to get his golf clubs out of Hawk. I don't want to cut that out.
00:07:44
Speaker
I wouldn't do that. I love R.I.P. don't do that. Yeah, don't do that. I like that. And like i could maybe I could cut out when he goes to visit Rene Russo in the shrink's office and then he drives along by the river. I don't want to do that either. I love that.
00:07:56
Speaker
love that too. That's what I'm saying. I don't have anything that I want to remove. I just know. And i look at if you look at the Ron Shelton's other movies, especially the sports movies, they all land about 108 110-ish minutes.
00:08:07
Speaker
this is one hundred and thirty four And for me, when you get to be like 220, I'm like, I want it to be a little bit shorter. But I don't know what I would take out. Yeah, I don't know either. Those are the only two dings I can give it. I think this is really fun, super enjoyable, very rewatchable movie.
00:08:22
Speaker
Yeah, super rewatchable for me. All right, let's do our best scenes. My first one is the one I just talked about, when he goes to play the guy with the rake and the shovel and the baseball bat. That guy is so great.
00:08:33
Speaker
He freaking pawns his golf clubs, and then he has to get them out of Hawk to go try to win the U.S. Open, which is his like plan to be able to steal Rene Russo from Don Johnson, who's a pro golfer.
00:08:44
Speaker
and and With fantastic hair. With great hair. And Cheech Mare and his buddy Romeo is like, you don't even have the money to get your golf clubs out of Hawk. And he freaking just goes and and he and he plays And he plays the guy who he won the Winnebago off of that he lives in.
00:09:01
Speaker
That's great. i didn i I love, and it's they're just doing this stuff where it's like, it's like 173, a little bit of wind. I recommend the shovel. Takes the shovel, just whacks the ball. I like when he, after after he hits it and he just crushes it and he stabs it in the ground like that. That's wonderful.
00:09:20
Speaker
He lays down on the ground and uses the rake like a pool cue to shoot the ball into the into the hole. ah That's great. That's great. So my first one is very similar. Not that one. It's the seven iron only qualifier. When he's in the qualifier and he gets in this heated argument with Romeo Cheech over his club selection um and Romeo gets mad and breaks the club.
00:09:46
Speaker
And then Roy, of course, can't let that go. So he snaps a bunch of them. He's like, I always heard this would just a snap. And this would take snap. Oh, dude, it's great. And then he's like, but not all seven iron. He's like rubbing it and holding it close to his face. And then he freaking finishes out the whole back nine with just a seven iron. That one's that one's in my quotes.
00:10:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's one of my quotes too. It's like, never even occurred to me to try. Freaking come on, man. But also, dude, he's like, ah he's talking. like, what was best shot?
00:10:22
Speaker
Was 7-iron on 14? Or what about that bunker shot on 16, which I believe was also with 7-iron?
00:10:29
Speaker
and do these talk And Rene Russo's like, ah she's like, how would you grade my performance? He's like, you failed miserably. He's like, what are you talking about? He's like, I just qualified. He's like, from the mental side, you regressed. He's like, your caddy quit. He's like, we always quits. Yeah.
00:10:49
Speaker
Oh, man. He's like, you broke every club in your bag. He's no, I didn't. He broke two of them. Like, all that shit. He's trying to get her on a technicality. Yeah, no, it's great. love that dialogue. It's great. That was freaking fantastic. Yeah, that was my first one because it's just fantastic.
00:11:04
Speaker
And I can also only add a seven. My second one is when he's in this. bar at the US Open and he's just shot in 83 because he played hungover and he decided he was going to play. He learned his lesson. That was Cheech's fault. Give me the two iron. He's like, yeah, I've been a bad bit of coaching. And dude, he's sitting there at the bar wearing his like freaking windbreaker that's got like Salome, Texas, like life insurance stickers and shit on it. Like the poorest NASCAR driver. Yeah. And he's like holding a glass of whiskey and David Sims, Don Johnson comes up and he goes,
00:11:38
Speaker
He goes, you know, I once played ah pro-am out here with some kind of movie star. he's like he shot an 82. How did a legendary ball striker such as yourself shoot an 83? And he goes, well, missed a four-foot putt on 18 for 82. Yeah.
00:11:57
Speaker
And then they do this they do the bet where he's going to hit the freaking golf shot through the bar, out over the water, and then hit a post and then scare away a freaking pelican. Yeah, that's great.
00:12:09
Speaker
That whole scene. And like Gary McCord from the PGA Tour, who the story is based off of because it happened to him and he did that in real life. He's holding the freaking soda gun commentary and like Cheech Marin is like pushing everybody out the like, give gallery, Romeo.
00:12:25
Speaker
I always remember that. I freaking love that. I also like, did you watch Stick on Apple TV with Owen Wilson? No. It's kind of a lot like this because he's like a guy who should have been on the golf tour and he like flamed out and he's like working at a driving range and he's going to mentor a young kid. But they're doing stuff like this in the first couple episodes. Him and Marc Maron, they're going into bars and he's like scam he's conning people into like doing long putts across the bar. And every time I watch sequences like that in stick, I'll be like, that's from 10 Cup.
00:13:00
Speaker
Dude, the whole time that um she's telling him, you know what? I bet he could do it from here through the thing, hit that, and knock, scare the pelican off. And the whole time, Cheech is like looking out the window. He's like, hey, boss, I think you could do this. I think you could make this. year You got that.
00:13:18
Speaker
That's freaking great. That's great.
Kevin Costner's Performance and Involvement
00:13:20
Speaker
What's your next one? My next one is... um The 62 at the U.S. Open.
00:13:29
Speaker
yeah So he um he's in over his head. Suddenly he locks it in. ah The local hero story that always happens in movies like this. um And Jim Nance is like, sells the whole scale of the whole thing. And like, he just...
00:13:50
Speaker
62 in a major and that like that whole thing that Jim Nance is doing it was just great uh uh apparently um during the production he was reading that thing in the back of a rental car to record that part uh it's just i freaking that whole part I was like oh hell yes because I remember what happens in the end but when I was watching it dude I was in it brought me back in and I forgot about that and I'm like, oh, hell yeah, he's coming back now. He's really kicking butt. um yeah i Dude, I love that. And I would have loved, if we had more time to talk to Ron Shelton, I would have loved to have talked to him about what you were talking about, which is like, to produce golf and make it, because golf is like, the final round is happening over the course of like a 12-hour day. The golfers all have different start times. So like, it's not really a linear sporting event where like the buzzer sounds, then there's a final score. Right. But like, when they cut it together to make it seem like there's drama, it's like Dude, how do they do that? How did you guys do that in the movie? Because it's awesome.
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, I always think about that, too. What if the guy who goes first, I mean, typically they don't do this, but what if the guy that goes first is the guy that kills it and hits a 62 in the U.S. Open? Then there's no more drama. Everyone's bored.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah, everybody's just like, well, that guy already hit a 62. These guys are all way over that, and there's no mathematical way for them to catch up. I'm going to go watch Price is Right. like Yeah. Yeah. yeah That's a good one. My third scene is, man, it's hard to choose because there's a lot of great scenes and there's a lot of memorable scenes, but I was thinking about it. I was like, i think my third scene is going to be Roy goes to therapy.
00:15:26
Speaker
Oh, man. Yeah. Just because, like, 30 minutes is enough. I'm not that fucked up. He, Rene Russo is a therapist. He's like telling Cheech, he's like, I think I just feel like kind of messed up in my head. as I but need to probably talk to somebody. he's like, you don't know any strings. He's like, well, know one. He's like you can't go talk to the girl you have a crush on. He's like, why not? Dude, and he goes into her freaking office. He's wearing a short sleeve, button-up shirt with a Shura clip-on tie. And it's tucked in tight. It's freaking... And, dude, he's got his hat on, and he's got his golf cleats, but he took the spikes out of them.
00:16:00
Speaker
Yeah. And, dude, he's du's going in through the exit. She's still out there crying in the exit room. I knew it was some kind of room. There was no magazines, and it wasn't painted. Yeah. That was, that's in my quotes, dude. When he walks, but when he storms out at the end, he's like, you're still in the exit room. And she starts crying again. Ah, crying. And he's trying to like get her advice on his like, uh, And she's like, he's an idiot. No, no, no, he's not an idiot. He's really smart. No, he's, he's a juvenile. And he's like, well, you're not understanding. She's like, boy, you're talking about you.
00:16:31
Speaker
Ah, that's great. That's so great. and And then she's like, just you know just speak from the heart, and you know you can't make a mistake. And then he just goes, I think I'm falling in love with you. And then, dude, flip-flops.
00:16:43
Speaker
And he's like, when you told me to say that? She's like, I didn't know you meant me. Shit.
00:16:49
Speaker
Ah, that's great. That's really great. That one freaking cracked me up. Yeah, I definitely don't want to take that part out. I love that part of him going to therapy, especially put the poor lady in the waiting i mean in the exit room that's crying. um And that's where he first tells her, like, you're the wrong guy. You know, your boyfriend yeah hates old people, hates children and dogs. And that theme just keeps coming up. And the other the other guys from the driving range, they're like, yeah, and dogs, too. He hates dogs. Don't forget dogs. Well-known fact. that's freaking great. um
00:17:27
Speaker
That's a good one. And because you picked that one, I'm going to go with the one that I feel like everybody wants to choose. And that's the Immortal 12 on the 18th hole of the U.S. Open, where he refuses to lay up.
00:17:39
Speaker
ah And he just keeps snapping and asking for the ball, um which nobody gets. He just keeps sending shot after shot into the water. After, by the way, this is round four because open just tournament golf tournament last four days, four rounds. And every other round, he also sent the goddamn ball into the water, and he's just doing it over and over again. yeah And it's excruciating to watch. It's definitely the most memorable scene from the movie.
00:18:03
Speaker
Yeah, dude. And the fact that um he can make it, you know, he knows he can make it. And it kept going over and landing on the green, but then rolling all the way off because it's so such a strong grade. Dude, I freaking loved it.
00:18:22
Speaker
I loved it. And the fact that, and I was telling Ron Sheldon, he holds the ball up after he pulls it out. Or like when they both walk up and Cheech and him both look in there and they look at each other and nod. And then they reach in and pull it out and he holds it up and everybody starts cheering it and he freaking throws it in the water. Yeah, that's right.
00:18:39
Speaker
Come on. I mean, why would he throw that in there though? That's a brand new Titleist. All these, they're brand new Titleist. Stick a couple in the bag. Just put a couple in the bag.
00:18:50
Speaker
I don't know how you write that stuff. That's fantastic. Yeah, dude. That is absolutely delightful. Let's say, I say, let's do, let's pause right here. We'll, we'll give you our interview with writer director, Ron Shelton, and then we'll come back and we'll do our quotes and take it the rest of the way. How do you feel about that?
00:19:06
Speaker
Yeah, it's great. Let's do it.
Western Themes and Creative Process
00:19:08
Speaker
Ron Shelton is an acclaimed writer, director, and former minor league baseball player known for celebrated and iconic films like Bull Durham, White Men Can't Jump, Ten Cup, and Blue Chips, and those are just the movies that we've done on this podcast. We're delighted to have a few minutes with him today.
00:19:22
Speaker
Jeff, get it started. Yes. Again, thanks. Thank you so much for doing this. This is great. um I started reading golf digest thing from a long time ago that you had done. And you were talking about Westerns. And then in your book, JT and I were talking earlier that you talked about Westerns. We do a lot of those on here too. um When Roy is standing over that shot on 18, he's great guy.
00:19:49
Speaker
When you're picturing and when you're writing stuff and I saw you talk about like Peckinpah and paul and and we we talk about ah him all the time, you know, Bloody Sam. We um like the ending. You called it a Western. What did you mean when you said it's it's like a Western?
00:20:08
Speaker
Well, it ends up the whole third act is a gunfight, mano-a-mano gunfight with two guys. I mean, i'm a golf, if you've been to golf tournaments, they make no sense. It's 150 guys on 150 acres. You don't know who's weighing. You don't anything. or It only makes sense on television. And I got to know those guys, Frank Tricanian, who invented televised golf and how they tell the story in the trailer with 85 monitors that doesn't exist except to the home viewer. It's quite brilliant because...
00:20:41
Speaker
um how they juggle all this. and And then the announcers out there getting multiple feeds in their ears. I mean, i mean guys like Jim Nance, and I'm very close with Gary McCord, who's not there at the moment. you know Live broadcasting is an unrecognized art form.
00:21:00
Speaker
Having said that, how do you reduce golf to something that's primal, and that's what it is It's the good guy and the bad guy, and they've each got a gun, and they've got one round to solve it. so I was thinking of Western all the time.
00:21:14
Speaker
Nice. So like the balls going in the water one after another, that's just your version of the onscreen violence just going back and forth. it's not. That's, I mean, at that point, it's, it's not about the violence. it It's honestly about, uh,
00:21:31
Speaker
You know, this guy's self-destructive behavior, oh yeah which is also a Western theme, but he's managed to hold it together for 71 and a half holes because of a woman.
00:21:46
Speaker
But there's something greater driving him, and that's this idea of immortality, which is an absurd thing to drive you. That's great. So there's sort of greatness in his 12, right?
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah. which she tells me what She tells him later, you know, right right at the end. Yeah, absolutely. absolutely it's like And it's a great point because it's even if you follow it closely, like how many of the last Masters winners can you really name? But if you pay attention to sports, you kind of remember the you remember the meltdowns, you know, like you remember the bad hop ground balls that people missed and the strikeouts and the you know, and the meltdowns. It's kind of crazy. It's an an amazing i think I talk about this in my book. Athletes remember their failures, not their successes. Good athletes. Bad athletes will tell you about what they did.
00:22:31
Speaker
a real athlete will tell you about the ball through the legs, the strikeout, the missed putt from two feet. And that's how you know you're with real athletes or real filmmakers or real writers because they never think they get it right. It's always, I i'd rather i should shoot that scene again. I need to rewrite that. you know Yeah, this isn't good enough. That's coming from the top. people that's well Well, that's great about the movie too. Like perfection is unattainable. If never a more true statement was said about golf, right?
00:23:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's an impossible sport, and it sort of makes it makes no sense to anybody except if you play golf, and then it makes total sense. Well, Jeff and I played golf when we grew up together, and I distinctly remember if anybody went into a pond, you immediately would hold your hand out and snap and just yeah demand another ball.
00:23:25
Speaker
like Oh, man. Well, you know what? The story's been told. sent now by Tigers. I don't know if it's apocryphal or not, but it's I hope it's true because it's better than true when you know he he ran away with the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach that that he forgot to pack extra balls. and Remember, he lost a ball, and he came to the last hole with all that Pacific Ocean and howling wind, and he didn't have any extra balls. So if he hits it in the water, he's disqualified. It's done, yeah. I can't remember that famous caddy, the Australian guy, but if it's not true, it should be true.
00:24:03
Speaker
And so i hit the fairway and then hit the layup, you know, the caddy was off the hook. Otherwise, it would have been the greatest meltdown Yeah. true Just like at the at the end when he finally, you know, Roy makes it in and he holds it up and throws it into the water.
00:24:21
Speaker
My son, who's only 13 and was watching it watching that part with me, he just lit up. He was like, oh, that's the greatest. That's so cool. That was his favorite part. That his favorite part. I'm glad because I wanted to make him momentarily triumphant walking up there like he he just won the Masters. That's so great. That's so great. he had in yeah terms Yeah, absolutely. And you mentioned Gary McCord. And I had a question about that because I read that a lot of the golf beats from the movie were based on his kind of real life events like the the bar, the penguin on the post, the like, you know, eight balls in the water.
00:24:57
Speaker
The pelican. Thank you. did you um Did you meet Gary before writing or did that stuff come together as you were shooting or tell me about that? No, after the script was greenlit and I flew out Vail and met him and we became fast friends. and the The Pelican story I had read in a magazine that he had told, so I just stole that.
00:25:20
Speaker
But the other ones of he had never told me about at the Texas Open where he kept throwing a ball down to prove he could do the shot. That had never been published before. That's great.
00:25:32
Speaker
And then when I said i want to hit one off the the porta potty. He had some story that he'd done it somewhere. So um mostly we're John Norville and I, that my co-writer is a wonderful, wonderful golfer. He played golf at Stanford. That's how good he is. and And he's a terrific writer.
00:25:56
Speaker
We were we were amazed that stuff we were making, stories we were making up had some kernel of truth in the. Yeah, actual validity. That's that's great. And how great to have Gary in the movie commentating when he's going to take a hooded seven iron off the shitter. And he and he's grabbed when he grabs the drink dispenser.
00:26:16
Speaker
I don't know why, because it's been a while since I had seen it. And when I was watching it again for this podcast, oh, man, it's just it's so great. Everything. And JT and I talk about this all the time. When we did Bull Durham and and White Man Can't Jump, there's just small things that you put into these that are just great, man. It just makes it so memorable. It's it's wonderful. It's wonderful.
00:26:40
Speaker
um When JT and I were talking about, do you play golf, by the way, still? Or do you play? I play not nearly as much as I would like or as I used to. I used to play quite a bit.
00:26:51
Speaker
and because in that it was Well, in that article, you were talking about like oh more of like a rich kid country club type sport. And this comes out in 96. I didn't graduate high school until 96. So like after this, there's this movie and like Happy Gilmore and stuff like that. It makes us feel like maybe we can play golf too. And we start to find these sports.
00:27:18
Speaker
courses that are out in the middle of nowhere in the country back here. In Louisiana, it would just be like a cow pasture that was cut really short. like Yeah, there's... Hole 7 and Hole 3 are the same green. You're just two people coming at it. But to me, that's what I liked about this movie. So, like, the workplace in the beginning where he's working at a driving range.
00:27:38
Speaker
Like, why I don't even know how i want to ask this. To me, that's the best part of how this whole thing sets up. It feels attainable because he just works at the driving range. Sure, he's kind of good, but he ends up being awesome.
00:27:53
Speaker
The, the, you touch on the reason we made, one of the major reasons John and made the story is, you know we We grew up as public golf course kids without any money and stand in line at 5.30 in the morning. and I remember where I grew up. the The public course on Christmas was open anybody. had a sign in the first d Merry Christmas. and guys gone yeah and I didn't join a private club. I'm not a member anymore, but until...
00:28:24
Speaker
you know I don't know, around the time we made Tin Cup, to be honest, and I got a member of Riviera for a while. um And and and so that was my first time really to experience that sort of Tiffany version of golf, yeah which is fun. But but John and i are both, you know, shitheels of Salome, to use the term. that Those are...
00:28:50
Speaker
the followers of Ray McAvoy. And we wanted to make a movie that returned golf to its blue collar roots, even though the story was gonna end up in this cathedral of golf. So that's where there's so much of the driving range and all those little other courses where he's playing with ah with ah a hoe, a rake, and a whatever. Those were just courses around Tucson, Arizona.
00:29:15
Speaker
And yeah, and because the movie was really made for those lunch bucket guys who were standing and in line. That's us. Yes. Public tracks somewhere.
00:29:28
Speaker
Yeah. The production design for the driving range was much closer to the courses that Jeff grew up. Jeff and grew up playing like Volkswagen Bug, collecting the balls and eating hot dogs like out of a jar. Like just that's that's that's.
00:29:43
Speaker
I mean, Kevin grew up like that too. His dad worked for the phone company or something. And the the production designer, Jim Bissell, is one of the great production designers. I mean, he just has a great eye for that. We built that that cafe and turned it into a pro shop. And then we had to dismantle everything there and return it to its ecologically pure state. Oh, up Yeah.
00:30:06
Speaker
But one of the great things is we we're shooting a car started pulling in wanting to they thought it was a real drive. Actual rates. That's great. Oh, man. Oh, that's great. Well, you mentioned Kevin Costner and I wanted to ask about him because to me, this is such an iconic underrated Costner performance like this is this part is such a meatball right in his strike zone as an actor. How early on were you thinking about him for this part?
00:30:32
Speaker
John and i didn't have an idea and then we got to about page 20 because he was just writing in Portland, Oregon and I was writing in LA and we were working on things and I don't know who called who first said, you know, this is this is perfect for Kevin, who we both knew and of course I'd made a movie with and and from that moment on,
00:30:55
Speaker
Every line was written for Kevin in our head. Because Kevin, when I turned it into the studio, they said, well, golf, I don't know. If you can get Kostner, we'll make it.
00:31:07
Speaker
And Kevin had just announced he was going to take but know the year off or eight months off because he just finished probably Waterworld, to be honest. Waterworld, yeah. And I sent it to him, and I said, read it and have breakfast with me.
00:31:23
Speaker
You pick the spot and tell me to my face you're not going to do this movie. And so he picked this little place called Patty's Diner. It's like in Vinterbo. It's just absolutely lunch bucket, you know, green. I'm an eggs kind of drink.
00:31:39
Speaker
And we go there and he's and he's cursing me. Can I curse on the podcast? Yes, of course. Yeah, motherfucker. I love this. guy that Fuck. I said, will you start shooting in mid-September?
00:31:53
Speaker
and And he goes, yeah, okay, fuck, yeah, gotta call my wife. That's great. i So it was the the receipt for the bill. The waitress comes over. It's one of those paper ones, you know, pre-electronic, where you tear off the tab, the little thing. Oh, yeah, the little tab. That's your record, right? Yeah.
00:32:13
Speaker
I remember this. It was $19.27 for two breakfasts. And took that over. and and i took that over right out of there, because this place was close to Warner Brothers, and I had a deal at Warner's, and he had a deal at Warner Brothers.
00:32:27
Speaker
And so I went over there, and a guy named Terry Simmel was the head of production for 22 years, then their glory years. And I didn't have an appointment with him, but it was about 10 in the morning, and I went to the secretaries, and I said, tell Terry I need five minutes with him between meetings or calls. Five meetings.
00:32:44
Speaker
Five minutes. So I go in, and I hand him this little thing. $19. He said, what's this? I said, I got Kevin Costner for mid-September, and this $19 is going to cost you $15 million.
00:32:58
Speaker
That's what Kevin got at the time. That's great. That's how the movie got made. Man, yeah that's that's great. And you really, um I know you're saying like after page 20 or whatever, it feels like you, like I could tell you were writing for his voice. It's just, it flows out of him so perfectly. I'm glad you said it's an underrated performance because comedies are always underrated by people. and they're Always. They're harder than anything to do.
00:33:26
Speaker
You know, Tootsie should have won Best Picture, not Gandhi, okay? We talk about it all the time. Absolutely, all the time. I'd say great and timeless pictures. Anybody watch Gandhi a second time? I couldn't get to it.
00:33:39
Speaker
We talk about this all the time. we Comedy is so hard, and it is not appreciated. And a I lost my train of thought on that, but it doesn't matter. Well, Kevin gives a great comedic performance in this. Oh, yeah. he's He's actually playing a version of Nuke at 40. So in a certain way, he's played Crash Davis and Nuke.
00:33:59
Speaker
Nice. Yeah. Nice. But not the deep thinker, the kind of guy stumbling around led by his loins. Comic book reader. He's got a gif, but he's... so he's um His flaw in that, you as is a human, empathetic flaw, Roy McAvoy in that movie is not and this is my observation of most people it's not that he's afraid of losing he's afraid of winning and i've always felt more people are afraid of winning than losing because then the expectations eat you alive yeah and you got you got to live up to it right john wooden said the worst thing ever happened to winning two straight with a no player over six foot four because now they wanted him to win every year all every key back and blew duke out and then he blew somebody else out
00:34:51
Speaker
And then he won like 9 out of 10 in a row or 10 out of 11 or something with different players. And and then he loses. And then Walton graduates and Jabbar graduates, Lou Alcindor.
00:35:02
Speaker
They go, oh, he's done. And he won another one with nobody you ever heard of. Exactly. yes And he beat North Carolina. And he said... and and he said it was He won all those in a row and then he lost one and they were calling for his job in l LA. He's lost it, I swear to you.
00:35:22
Speaker
that's how that's how it's That's how fast it swings. Expectations in everything. It's killer. so killer Well, since you bring that up, so because my 13-year-old's watching through his fingers like this when he keeps going in the water, because he just knew it was going to happen. And yeah, he's just giving another one um Is Roy more scared of losing or having to live as a winner? Like, what do you think i think? I think in the third act, he faces winning, and he wants to win even bigger than is possible. He wants immortality. Right.
00:35:56
Speaker
So in a certain way, he's... he's now finally going for it and risking everything and that's where that's his greatness up until he meets the woman he's afraid of winning yeah that's why he's a big fish in the world's littlest pond and all of those losers that he surrounds himself with call him the legend right of course yeah and he's not even a good hustler he gets hustled by don johnson yeah And it's it's it's excruciating to watch because to me, and I was not, I mean, I sat the bench at a small college as a football player, so I was not an athlete on the level of of you. But to me, watching unrealized potential is brutal because I just, I had buddies like that who had every gift in the world, like Nuke, but had no discipline and no desire to work. And so just watching him send him into the drink is like, ah. And i'm I was trying to figure it out because we had to talk about it on the podcast. And I'm going, I think,
00:36:54
Speaker
Is it maybe just that he's he's just decided like he cannot be the guy who lays up even if it costs him the open? Like his principles mean that to him? At that point, he really is not afraid of winning anymore. he wants to win so big. He wants to shoot a score nobody will ever. I mean, so at that, risk he's thrown caution to win there. That's why it's a triumphant failure to me. Yeah.
00:37:20
Speaker
Yeah. and And you, you've done this in several of your movies. It's almost, I mean, it's kind of a hallmark, especially if you're sports movies and Jeff and I talked about it before you got on and maybe you could speak to it a little bit. It seems like you have a real interest as a former high level athlete of showing that athletics is not necessarily like the Gwen one for the Gipper come up in the bottom of the ninth, hit the walk off while the, while it fades to black. Like you want to show like, this is kind of what it's really like. That's the best part. Have I made that up or is there, or there's something to that?
00:37:49
Speaker
No, that's exactly right. i um i have a hard time sitting in the in the stands of any sport to hear how little the fans understand what's actually happening out there. And it makes me crazy.
00:38:02
Speaker
um I can't really go to games. i'm always you know Even I go to my son's games, and he's senior in college, but even in high school, is he's in the Midwest, so I only can stream him, which is why I have to get off this in about 10 minutes, because he's got a game streaming. No, absolutely.
00:38:19
Speaker
But I walk around, you know I can't sit, I can't listen to people. I mean, I see a different game of baseball. I know that the pitcher just threw a ball to the leadoff hitter in the third inning, and what the odds are that that guy's going to not only get on base, he's going to score a run that beats us.
00:38:39
Speaker
Right. And now he threw another ball. yeah yeah I mean, I'm watching a totally different game. Yeah. The fans. and and And I wanted to make movies from the athlete's point of view. That's great.
00:38:55
Speaker
That's all. And you can feel the authenticity of them, and that's i think it's one the things that we love about them. um Jeff, get yourer and let's get a couple more questions in there before to let him go Yeah, but actually, I'm glad you brought up, JT, the thing about ah the real ending, because I heard, or as i was reading one of those articles, they said that the studio wanted him to win.
00:39:16
Speaker
they They wanted Roy to pull it out at the end. Did you fight that? the Oh, you always fight. Every movie's a fight. But it got greenlit.
00:39:28
Speaker
with this ending. And then when we finished shooting, um the head of, not Terry Simmel, but the head of actual production ah took another job and two new guys came in And so they hadn't really signed on to what we were doing. and they And they were like, what? They go to the screening, they didn't know he was going to make a 12.
00:39:50
Speaker
And they made this argument. and And I said, well, you will not only have no movie, you won't have a star, you'll be laughed off the screen if he makes the shot.
00:40:02
Speaker
And audiences dug the movie, so that argument went away. That's great. But my Capra story is we did a big premiere in LA, we did ah another mini premiere in New York City.
00:40:17
Speaker
And a real estate developer named Donald Trump came to it with Marla, his de jure, her wife de jure. And real estate and then after the after the thing, and I know who he is, everybody knows who he is, he's a guy can't get a loan in New York, that's who he is.
00:40:39
Speaker
right he um He, the publicist said, um Donald Trump would like to meet you, say hi because he's a golfer, so he comes over.
00:40:50
Speaker
i don't yet know what a big horse, as big a horse's ass is. now No. Now you know, cover your wall with both hands. He comes over with Marla. And i and add he says, just like this, this is not a hello, why you enjoyed the film. He says, let me tell you how you could have made a better picture.
00:41:08
Speaker
First of all, you go in the editing room. That's what you do. I know how to do that. And you change it. You can re-edit it. So he makes a three. He hits the eagle. He wins. It'll sell more. It'll do greater business.
00:41:22
Speaker
And Marla's kind of looking at me, rolling her eyes like, I know he's my guy. But what you fucking married him. Oh, you're right. so i will i and anyway And then I get ready for my speech. My speech is this.
00:41:37
Speaker
This will go back to when I'm arguing for the right R ending. Yeah. I said, if Ingrid Bergman walked away with Bogart instead of Paul Honried at the end of Casablanca, you do not remember the movie.
00:41:52
Speaker
Of course. If Ten Cup makes a three and wins it, there's no movie. Yeah. So I start if Ingrid Bergman he turns around he walks off with Marlowe. So that was that's my Donald Trump story.
00:42:06
Speaker
That's that's a great one. I know they kind of infamously remade white men can't jump without involving you which Jeff and I agree is a travesty. If they did that to 10 cup I feel like they might give it to Donald Trump ending.
00:42:20
Speaker
Oh, I don't want that. Well, yeah. and And what happened to Whiteman is it still enrages me. And that's the business we're in, folks. That's the business him. Yeah. Right. and if i And I was fully prepared to make Whiteman, you know, Whiteman can't jump 20 years, 25 years later, which would be new, fresh, original. And I'd have new characters, but I'd have the old characters do cameos.
00:42:46
Speaker
I have a great, John and I have a great treatment. of 10 Cup 2, which is really next generation. We're ready now. And we can't get them to make it yet. It's good. It is so good. So it's all right so how is that just a a money thing? they They don't want to come up with the money? Can you not find, like, we talk about it all the time. Some of these movies that are rom-coms or sports movies or comedies, they can't get made because there's there's no superheroes in it. Can you get it made through, like, Netflix? Or is that not something you want to do? Yeah.
00:43:22
Speaker
No, I'd gladly make it through Netflix. The the rights are tied up at Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers is now owned by David Ellison, which is basically Donald Trump donald trump and Jared Kushner.
00:43:34
Speaker
And they just bought Paramount and Warner. So it's all... Now, can I get it? made Maybe, but it's going to take five years for the dust to settle on the new... Right.
00:43:47
Speaker
I don't know. and i don't know And one of the things that we, the sports movies that we really love, and the 90s is an incredible time for sports movies, but we talk about like A League of Their Own is one of Jeff and my favorite movies. I believe that's Gans and Mendel, Penny Marshall, but like they had tryouts before they had auditions. And you did that for Bull Durham and for White Men Can't Jump. And that is a critical step for a sports movie, making sure the actors can play or look like they can play.
00:44:13
Speaker
Yeah. Which seems like it's kind of gone away. I'd have a, no, we'd go step outside and play catch. I mean, all you need to do is throw the ball once and let them throw it once. That's it. Your audition's over, you're out, you're in. um Yeah. yeah and And when I was out of town on Bull Durham, I'd already had gone down to Durham about three days before we shot. We lost a couple of our players due to other movies, conflicts.
00:44:35
Speaker
And the casting director called and said, well, I can't play catch with them in the hallway in New York. And I said, put a baseball and a bat in the room. I said, a ball player will not be able to enter that room without either picking up the baseball or the bat.
00:44:51
Speaker
That's genius. You can't. No, you i mean, because it's their comfort zone. And, and ah you know, a ball a guy's going to hold the ball a certain way or hold the batter's certain way. I said, so then after you've done the interview, do your Polaroids, because it's pre-digital, of the guy holding the bat.
00:45:10
Speaker
Yeah. And I hired two guys off of that that are in the infielders. That's great. Yeah. it's You can tell by the Polaroid that they know how to hold the bat, that they yeah that's not their first time. yeah Oh, man, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, listen, thank you so much for your time. we'll We'll let you go watch your son, but this is great. and We're excited to record our actual episode and talk about the movie now.
00:45:30
Speaker
Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, man. So much. Thanks. All right. My first quote is... You want to actually pause Is this how they do ah commercial breaks on TV shows? I'm going to put that in in post.
00:45:49
Speaker
My first quote is from Romeo from Cheech Marin. And it's a like, well, David Sims may be a soulless robot, but he's rich, happy soulless robot with a beautiful doctor lady girlfriend.
00:46:02
Speaker
Besides, how getting in the open can it change what she thinks about you? And then Roy goes, well, it'll show her I'm not who she thinks I am. But you are she thinks you are. You are. That shit kills dude. His delivery is fantastic. I love Cheech. There's nothing to not love about Cheech.
00:46:22
Speaker
So my whole thing is when Cheech is... my first one is when che is trying to help him because he's got the shanks.
00:46:33
Speaker
He just can't hit it straight. And he's warming up and he's hitting a bucket of balls before he goes out there. And he's just freaking shanking them right down the line. He's like hitting the people next to him. At the US Open with the brand titleists. Right, right. With the brand new titleists.
00:46:49
Speaker
um And Cheech is like, all right, I'll tell you what to do. Look, take all the change and put it in your left hand pocket. Do it. Do it now now. Now tie your left shoe in a double knot. He's like, now turn your hat around backwards and stick this T behind your left ear. He's like, I look like a fool. He's like, what do you think you look like hitting chili peppers up Lee Jansen's ass? Oh my God.
00:47:08
Speaker
Just his delivery of what do you think you look like hitting chili peppers up Lee Jansen's ass is fantastic. He has so many funny lines like that. He's like,
00:47:21
Speaker
he's He's like, this is for when he's going to freaking hit another one instead of laying up. He's like, this is for whatever, the golf commentator. And dude in Cheech just says, his his size said yeah, what does he know? He only won this tournament before you were born. Yeah.
00:47:37
Speaker
Oh, man. I did. Cheech was a good choice. I'm so glad that he did it because it was he's he was fantastic. Yeah, it's fantastic.
00:47:48
Speaker
And I almost put the scene in there where he came back from the sectionals and he was trying to get Cheech to go back to be his caddy. Yeah. was did you Did you like me as much as Earl?
00:48:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. was like, look. I wasn't thinking you when I was with him. i love Earl, okay, but I need you. is a walking heart attack. He cost me three strokes a side. I had to carry the bag.
00:48:15
Speaker
more More than Earl? More than Earl? Am I special? but I really wanted to put that scene in there. I just didn't have room. But my next quote is one of the ones we already talked about.
00:48:27
Speaker
When he says to Don Johnson, you ever shoot par with a seven iron? And Don Johnson goes, hell, Roy. Never even occurred to me to try. Yeah, dude, there's two things I'll say about that. One, that was my next quote. And also, the way that you said Don Johnson's line is exactly how Don Johnson says it, and that's exactly how I say it every time I say it.
00:48:50
Speaker
That's awesome! Dude, it's awesome. It's the perfect... like call and response of their two characters yeah like roy is thrilled that he just shot par with a seven iron and freaking don johnson's like why the fuck would you even try to that yeah like i dude i like that don dude i love i love that was well written he's great casting too man he's perfect so good so good um All right. So my third one, my my last one is something that I say quite often, but nobody knows where it's from. And I'm okay with that. ah Every time we have to go start doing something before I'm ready, like, hey, we got to go back to the back by the football field because the seniors are about to do something. I'm always like, I got time for a quick bucket. Yeah.
00:49:42
Speaker
Every time. And nobody knows what I'm talking about. I say it to the people that I talk to the most at school and they don't know what I'm talking they just glaze over and keep going. They just, right, Horn's talking about a bucket again. Nobody knows. Because he shows up late for his tea off. And hung over for his tea time. And it's like, coming up now, Roy McAvoy out of Salome, Texas. He's like, do we got time for a quick bucket?
00:50:05
Speaker
You're on to the right for this very second or you're going to be disqualified. Yeah. Let the big dog eat, man. Just do it. Like the big doggy. um Give me the good stuff.
00:50:17
Speaker
Yeah, man. That's a great one. my I had a hard time, again, with the last quote because there's so many good lines yeah in this. But I ended up with, ah there's no such thing as semi-platonic.
00:50:29
Speaker
Well, there ought to be. There ought to be. I like how that's ah that's a nice callback at the very end when they do that and they're laying on the couch not watching TV just enjoying each other's company that's how you can tell they're newly dating um that is a you can also tell they're newly dating because they both fit on the same couch
00:50:49
Speaker
In a Winnebago. No, that wasn't in the Winnebago. That wasn't in the Winnebago. um Yeah, dude, that's a good one. they're at the At the river.
00:51:00
Speaker
Well, it's a river to me. And it's just great. It's great. Good call. Oh, man. um All right, best characters. Who's your first one? It's got it's got to be... Roy McAvoy. Kevin Costner.
00:51:15
Speaker
Ten Cup. Ten Cup. Yeah. love it. just... I mean, I said it to Ron Shelton, man. this is This is exactly right dead smack in Kevin Costner's strike zone. This is like... No pun intended. It's like goofy, funny, like, you know, like male lead, but like he looks like he could play sports and he's kind of screw up, but it's funny and everyone likes him. Like it's perfect. Yeah.
00:51:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I did. And I heard that he practiced golf but ahead of time. You were talking about how he, uh, what's his name? Uh, McCord. Well, the story was Gary McCord, who a lot of the golf in this movie, a lot of the golf stories, like the pelican in the bar and then like shooting the ball into the water until you get a 15. Yeah.
00:51:53
Speaker
Stuff that Gary McCord actually did, including like hitting the hooded seven iron off of the port-a-potty that Gary McCord commentates in the movie. That's great. He actually did that. So Kevin Costner took golf lessons from Gary McCord. He didn't know how to play golf. He learned for this movie. And a lot of the golf in the movie that 10 Cup is doing is actually Kevin Costner. yeah that's the best part right that's what and that's why you were saying that whole tryout thing with uh with uh shilton dude so like don johnson was talking about him and kevin costner were both single they're both making a movie and they're both just playing golf and just having lots of fun every time the the camera's not rolling uh that sounds delightful yeah man like i don't what are we what are we doing that we're not doing that part right
00:52:39
Speaker
We're doing none of that. um I like that. I also like, and we talked to Ron Shelton about, but I read his book recently, um which is about the making of Bull Durham. And it's, he was kind of talking about like but Kevin Costner, when he was going to make Bull Durham, he's Kevin Costner really wanted to do it, but he was like attached to doing some other stuff. And Kevin Costner, this is Ron Shelton's first movie, Bull Durham, he that he's written or written and directed. And Kevin Costner is like, I want to audition for you. And Ron Shelton's like, you don't you're Kevin Costner. You don't have to audition. He's like, no, no. He's like, you he's like I played baseball in high school. You played professionally. I need you to make sure I can do it. I make sure I can pull it off. do And they got in their cars and like drove to the Valley and went to a
00:53:20
Speaker
Bat in cage and like they just pulled baseballs and gloves out of their trunks and just threw it back and forth and he said just kind of just like he said to us he's like we threw you know he threw the ball to me one time that's all it takes I can tell he knows how to play baseball yeah and then we went to the bat in cages and like we just talked about the scripts and like he showed me since he showed me that he was a switch hitter in high school and i was like that's great because that means when I'm shooting you I can always get the light behind you that'll be amazing for the movie genius genius like that yeah who's your second character Uh, dude, I had to put Cheech.
00:53:52
Speaker
Super loyal, long-suffering caddy. Um, I like how he's like kind of Roy's conscience, but, you know, Roy could still block him out or break all his clubs to get past it. Um, dude, that this is like a,
00:54:11
Speaker
a stealth MVP performance from Cheech. Like, I think he's funny. He's super, super grounded. He's, he's like, he doesn't overplay it. Like, dude, I just thought he was good. He's my list. Also, he's got a bunch of the best lines in this movie. Like he's fricking, uh, like 10 cup tells him, he's like, I had to do it all over again, I'd still hit that shot. And Romeo was like, man, you bury yourself alive just to prove you can handle a shovel.
00:54:36
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's, Yeah, she just killed it. then what was the other one? God, there's one that really wanted to put in my quotes. It's like, I have one rule, and it's like, don't bet money you don't have on a dog race because then you end up owing it to your stripper girlfriend.
00:54:55
Speaker
Yeah. Some kind of line. so God, dude, that's a great line.
00:55:00
Speaker
Dude, the stripper girlfriend, what's her name? Linda Hart. Linda Hart. She's great. She's great. She's really good. Never bet money that you don't have on a dog race with an ex-girlfriend who happens to be a stripper.
00:55:13
Speaker
ah Can you dance? Can you dance? Cheech Marin as Romeo, his best friend slash caddy, is incredible casting, and he's stealing scenes this whole movie, and he's delightful.
00:55:24
Speaker
yeah He's my second character. Also, who's your third character? um Dude, it was toss-up. Do you do Don Johnson and his great hair, or do you do Renee Russo and her great hair? Um...
00:55:37
Speaker
I wanted to put Rene Russo because I don't like when we do all guys. But, dude, I just love Don Johnson. He was super smug. He's just playing it safe, you know. I'll take 18 of those pars. And, like, he just...
00:55:54
Speaker
it Just super detestable rival. And there's, it's hard to hate him because he's Don Johnson and he's not even like, he's telling the truth, but like, you just got to hate him. Cause he's the bad guy. He's the bad guy. And then they like really shows it at the end. I do that. I freaking, I love it.
00:56:14
Speaker
I love it. So Don Johnson is awesome in this. He's a perfect foil. for Kevin Costner, even though, like, truthfully, if you flip-flopped those two of this two actors, this movie would be probably pretty close because they could both play the other role, but, like, they're oh yeah great where they are.
00:56:32
Speaker
Yeah. I went Renee Russo, number three, because I love Renee Russo. She's incredible in this movie. And, like, looking back, dude, we did... Like we did Major League on Patreon. We did Lethal Weapon 3, Major League 2, Outbreak, Get Shorty. This is like the sixth Rene Russo movie we've done. that She freaking never misses. Every time we do a Rene Russo movie, I always come on here and go, Rene Russo was awesome.
00:56:56
Speaker
yeah Yeah, she is. um I really hope we are still doing this for Big Trouble. The one with Tim Allen, because I loved her in that. 2002? Seven years? 2002, jeez.
00:57:10
Speaker
Maybe. I just want to be doing it for the Thomas Crown Affair, which is nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's that? Bronson? Pierce Bronson? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like one. like that one. And Dennis Leary. Also, she's in Ransom this year, which we're probably going to do so like we'll see her again real soon.
00:57:25
Speaker
I remember Ransom. That's what I'm saying. we should i wonder if she'll I wonder if she'll do podcast interviews. She's freaking great. Like, hey, we've done nine-year movies. Would you talk to us? She's great. um But yeah, man, you can't those are the those are kind of the top four, I think, in any order. You've got Don Johnson. I've got Rene Russo. They were both amazing.
00:57:44
Speaker
Absolutely. um Writer-director? Ron Shelton. Just talked to him. Great dude. Yeah. Yeah. i like i like I like the way he writes it. I like the way he directs it. There's nothing I don't like about the stuff he does.
00:58:01
Speaker
Nothing I don't like. Even the movies of his that were not like critical successes are like, oh, I like that movie. Freaking great white hype. Dude, I like that movie. Are you kidding me? and I freaking love that movie. He's one of the two credited writers on Bad Boys 2 in 2003. I wanted to ask him about it. We ran out time. There was like 30 people who rewrote the Bad Boys 2 script. I don't know how much of it he ended up being responsible for, but he's one of the two that are credited.
00:58:23
Speaker
The Writers Guild does care about that, so probably a good chunk of that. That's great. That movie's freaking badass. We did blue chips like two years ago or whatever. That shit was awesome. ah So like.
00:58:35
Speaker
does did co-write this with John Norville. And so um and we should also mention The only thing I've known that he's done other than what he's did, other than this one, is um the Jungle Cruise movie that my kids love so much.
00:58:51
Speaker
Yeah. um My thing is is, when looking at the Great White hype, how do you... Like, I don't know how you write Jamie Foxx's character and Jeff Goldblum's character. Like, I just...
00:59:10
Speaker
A Merlot Broham. Looking at the two guys who wrote this, I just couldn't picture them writing the words that are coming out of these guys' mouths, and they yeah he kills it.
00:59:21
Speaker
Just kills it. If we do Great White Hype, which is also in 96, maybe we can email him and ask him to that question. um Anytime I see a movie that has a bunch of people that I know are talented improvisers, like Damon Wayans and Jamie Foxx, just assume they got to like sam put a lot of their own on it.
00:59:39
Speaker
yeah i just but anyway he co-writes this movie with john norville john corville um corville or norville standby it is norville with an n yeah i got wrote down rolling my notes john norville and then he directs it and that's kind of all i mean you've heard us talk to him for 30 minutes that's uh that's yeah yeah yeah um Any, uh, did you have any other good? Like, I saw that, I mean, there's a bunch of cameos from, uh, different, um, PGA players. Uh, young Phil Mickelson was there. Craig Stadler was there. who's the, who's the one who walks up and asks him for the, uh,
01:00:21
Speaker
Ask Renee Russo for a card. I can't even remember now. I was just trying to find that name because the other golfers were going like giving her business at the end. They're like, Hey, we saw what you did for 10 cup. Cause we'd love to have us help us with the head game part of golf.
01:00:35
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, I liked, liked that, uh, that they were actually in there. Uh, I liked that they threw some Kebmo in there. Um, that was fantastic for me. Um,
01:00:50
Speaker
The Chris Isaac song, I Wonder, I couldn't remember where I've heard that before, and I want to say it's... ah What's the Matthew Perry movie with Salma Hayek?
01:01:03
Speaker
Fool's Rush In? Fool's Rush I think it's in that one. I heard it this time, and I was like, ah, snap, that's fantastic. And a bunch of those songs were like ah Bruce Hornsby songs.
01:01:14
Speaker
um freaking love me some Bruce Hornsby. Yeah. It's just, I mean, dude's still around, still making music. I like, I know that was part of the thing that you said you didn't like about the whole thing was the soundtrack. Some of the music that I didn't like, but some of it I really liked. Like, dude, Bruce Hornsby and freaking Chris Isaac and Kebmo. um Jimmy Vaughn, I'm in for all that.
01:01:37
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. um Any other good? No, i mean, we talked a little bit before we started recording about some of the alternate people they talked to talked about casting, like John Leguizamo instead of Cheech. I'm sure that would have been good. i love John Leguizamo, but Cheech Marin was so good. Cheech killed it.
01:01:58
Speaker
And like ah this, you could put a lot of people into the like kind of top three or four top three for sure. And the movie would, I think still work, but everybody in it did just gave such a great performance. I'm so happy.
01:02:12
Speaker
Yeah. they didn't do that. Yeah. It was, it was good. It was way good. Um, um, yeah, man, you let's do the worst. Okay. What'd you got for worst? Yeah.
01:02:24
Speaker
I talked about it already. I mean, 134 minutes, 138 minutes, a little bit, a little bit too. If it's 220, I'd like for it to be like two minutes, two hours instead of 220. But I don't, I don't even have anything I would take out. Right.
01:02:37
Speaker
Right. So 220, 221, whatever it takes. Yeah, 220, 221. I turn it up, I turn it down. It's all ball bearings these days. And I wanted to ask him about that, too, honestly, because it's longer than most of his other sports movies. And I know this was a Warner Brothers. Did the studio give him grief about that? And they have to fight?
01:02:55
Speaker
you know what what do they Why did they kind of land where they landed? Because i like studios care a lot about that because... especially in the nineties because if the movie is longer, you don't get as many screenings in a day and you don't make money.
01:03:07
Speaker
Right. Right. Right. Now I don't think they care nearly as much about that because they're making their money elsewhere on movies, but yeah, nobody, nobody's watching it in the theater. We should asked him how we save the theater.
01:03:17
Speaker
Um, the um what about effects dude the rain looked pretty good in this one you know that's my biggest every time there's a rain scene i always check that out the this one was pretty good it was pretty good rain scene um we i dude we mentioned it with him the production design to me was great the freaking winnebago and the driving range and they usually just built that in texas or i guess it was in they've shot in ah arizona or wherever but Yeah.
01:03:47
Speaker
Yeah. um When I got to old tech alert, the only thing I put was pleated khakis everywhere. Yeah, dude. it was I mean, baggy pleated khakis was was definitely the move. What about what about payphones?
01:04:00
Speaker
Yeah, there was payphones. There was also one or two big brick cell phones, like the big cell phones. um
01:04:10
Speaker
You could tell it's the 90s, but I don't think that changes like... Maybe it's because, let me ask you this, because this I think about this a lot. you You're watching a movie that's from the 50s.
01:04:23
Speaker
You know it's filmed in the 50s, so there's certain things that you know are going to be 1950s type stuff. Yeah, everyone's smoking unfiltered cigarettes. Right. You're watching a movie from the 90s. Do you just automatically do that? Or because we grew up in it, we're like, yeah, that looks right.
01:04:39
Speaker
A big brick cell phone and some pay phones. Right. Dude, I wonder that about sports, because like if I see a highlight from the 90s Bulls, like I recognize that it's not as crisp as the games I watch now, yeah but it doesn't I don't go like, well, that's some old-timey basketball there. yeah i go like, I remember that. I remember that.
01:04:57
Speaker
But if I watch like a freaking black and white like Bob Pettit Celtics game, Shit. yeah That seems like this is 200 years ago. Right. And I think it's just because I didn't grow up with it.
01:05:09
Speaker
this Yeah. answer Your question. I think if I grew up with it, I go, like that seems fine to me. Yeah. Because this all seemed fine. Yeah. I'm like, this is all. It doesn't seem dated at all. and That's why i was having trouble with the old tech because I'm like, yeah, yeah, pleated khakis. Well, this is like the birdcage. This movie, including the costuming, fits perfectly into 2026. Yeah. Like baggy, flamboyant clothes and people playing golf and there's no tech really in the movie. You're good. You're ready.
01:05:32
Speaker
The strip club would just be on OnlyFans now, but otherwise it would be exactly the same. Everybody's just watching it on their screen instead of in real life. That's no fun. Dude, what I want to know is his idiot buddies that hung around the driving range. Well, everybody gets what they get. The cart guy gets what?
01:05:51
Speaker
Four. Four. four like Four. What do those guys all do for a living? Where do they where does their money come from? um They all just do stuff around the thing. Because they're all just hanging they just all hang out at the driving range instead of money laundering operation?
01:06:04
Speaker
no i the guy think The guy driving the cart that picked up the balls got $4 an hour, and Kevin Costner, the driving range pro there, got $7 an hour. Yeah. That's 1996. I was making minimum wage $4.25 an hour at Eckerd at the time. Yeah. Kevin Costner was making almost twice what you were.
01:06:24
Speaker
God, bastard. Not even counting all the beer nuts he took out of the place and the money he took out of the till. What are beer nuts? I don't know, dude.
Beer Nuts and Cultural Commentary
01:06:33
Speaker
Is that a thing? Yeah.
01:06:36
Speaker
Beer nuts? i never I've never even heard of that. Like, just that you Classic American snack of roasted peanuts with signature sweet and salty glaze. so They're produced by Beer Nuts Brand Snacks, and offer feature bars. I'm going to have to try these. i didn't even know that was a thing. i thought you just meant like nuts you eat while you drink beer.
01:06:57
Speaker
Well, that's what they are, but they're called Beer Nuts. Yeah, but they got something special. It's not just nuts. It's sweet and salty glaze. It's supposed to you drink more. Yeah. Pretzels are making me thirsty. Yeah.
01:07:10
Speaker
But yeah, dode i didn't have a lot of I didn't have a lot of worst. I didn't i didn't have any old tech or political correctness.
Changing Dating Norms from 90s to 2026
01:07:18
Speaker
For political correctness, I wanted to ask you, did you feel like it was weird that she he was trying to date her? so like He was very Pepe Le Pew about the whole thing, and he was very adamant that...
01:07:32
Speaker
the like In 2026, it makes me uncomfortable. He's like, I'll drive you home. And he pulls his Cadillac over to the side of a deserted river. And he's like getting drinking out of the flask. And he's like leaning around her on the car, getting real close, talking about semi-platonic. I'm like...
01:07:47
Speaker
Seems like she's not into that and she's kind of trapped there by the river with you. Yeah, where's my bear spray? Yeah, it's it's not played that way at all. It's like he's just being charming and cute and she's like, oh, this is, I really like. But in head, I was like, it seems like when she gets home, she's going to post about sexual assault on her social media account. Hashtag me too, Roy McEvoy. Yeah, like for 2026. I was like, she probably should catch an Uber home.
01:08:14
Speaker
I'm guessing. Yeah. Driven by an armadillo with a hat. um Yeah, same, same. I just thought it was perfect for the 90s. Nobody thought twice about it, but now it seems a bit.
01:08:26
Speaker
I mean, I i do. um I am curious about like, because we're children of the 90s and now we're old guys in 2026. But like When we were living in the 90s, if you really liked a girl and she had a boyfriend, there was nothing at all wrong with going after that girl and being like, your boyfriend sucks, but also like, what's up?
01:08:46
Speaker
Would you like to go see a movie at some point? Like, that's what we were we thought you were supposed to do. And I don't think that you supposed to do that anymore. I think that's because that's how they did it in the movies. I didn't actually talk to girls.
01:08:58
Speaker
I didn't either, but I felt like that was the what they were supposed to do. Well, I didn't either. Yeah, same-sies. I was just a very good friend.
01:09:11
Speaker
Dick in a glass case. Case of emergency. Ken Mersey, break open glass. Oh, man. He's come to your house. He's sat on your couch. He's ate your food.
01:09:23
Speaker
And he shall betray
Kid-friendliness and Sequel Feasibility
01:09:24
Speaker
you. All right, five questions. Is it ok okay for kids? Did your kids watch this? ah He didn't watch the whole thing. Jake walked in on the very tail end of it.
01:09:35
Speaker
He was there for the sexy time part, and I think he felt uncomfortable for that. sure There's a lot of F-bombs, but he just hears that regularly at the house when the dishwasher doesn't get emptied. So I'm not worried about that. And I'm not super worried about the sexy time because it wasn't that gratuitous.
01:09:52
Speaker
They just made what's-his-not stand out in the rain. But yeah, dude, I say 13. I think this could have been PG-13 had it not been for the F-bombs. Yeah, and you you could really cut back on the F-bombs, get the PG-13, and you wouldn't really lose much of the movie.
01:10:07
Speaker
Right. As much as I enjoy the F-word. And as much as if you're making a movie about golf, it should involve a lot of F-words. Yeah. but yeah would Dude, when he said, Gossner sat across from him at the diner and started going, shit, fuck. i was like, ooh, he's already talking like a golfer. That's awesome. Getting into character right away.
01:10:24
Speaker
That's great. um Would this movie get made if it were pitched now? Well, the creator of it just told us that they're trying to get 10 Cup 2 made in there. and they're not It's not happening just yet. Yeah, nobody nobody wants that. ah Which is a damn shame. because Shocking to me because this a perfect one to revisit. It wouldn't cost a ton of money. That's what i'm saying. You probably some of the original cast back.
01:10:44
Speaker
Freaking mid-budget, R-rated program. It's expensive to shoot if you want to shoot at the U.S. Open, but you if you if you construct that... You could fake the U.S. Open. They faked it. It's fine. know. That's what I'm saying. They could do it. You could computer generate all the crowds. Yeah. Just AI the crowd. Just mid-budget.
01:11:03
Speaker
R-rated. Even though the guy who just hurts who just is trying to get it done has said no one has bitten yet. Jeff and I feel like this you should be able to do this again. Yeah. I feel like that. And if I win the lottery, I mean, I'm not spending it on Tin Cup 2, but...
01:11:17
Speaker
No, we've got a lot other movies we want to remake first. put something on it. want it I'd invest. I put a little in there. I've got five on it. Oh, man. So it's got to be a movie, though, right? This can't be a... I would want it. I want movies to be movies. That's how I roll.
Casting Suggestions for Hypothetical Sequel
01:11:32
Speaker
Yeah. It'd be easy to cast, dude, because Kevin Costner and Rene Russo were in their early 40s. That gives you a shit ton of actors to choose from. Yeah. Yeah. Did you recast it?
01:11:44
Speaker
I was thinking about it a little bit, it didn't land on anybody that it felt like it was like a perfect... ah per Who do you got? So for um David Sims, I picked Glenn Powell because he's in everything, first of all. So that's ah if you could get him to sign on to be the the jerk, which I feel like he could really play, I think that would be good. um And then for Roy, dude, I was at a loss. At first I was like –
01:12:15
Speaker
Maybe you could switch it up and make it a girl golfer. um And who could be super charming, but then also like ah looks like they could actually play golf. um I came up with Tessa Thompson, who I like, but I don't know. And then I thought John Hamm, I really like him. He's charming, and he looks like he could play sports, but isn't he too old now? like I don't know. You know what I'm saying? like I don't know how to do that. The person I thought of only because I think he's hilarious and I follow him on Instagram and he does play golf is Lamor and Morris.
01:12:48
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if he could open a movie, but he cracks me up. I think he would be good at this kind of like golfer. Absolutely. The only other person I had was for Romeo. I wanted Randall Park.
01:13:01
Speaker
ah Love that guy guy. The guy's hilarious. I don't know if I subconsciously picked him because he's a not white person, but yeah I totally I love him and I like his energy and I think he would be perfect.
01:13:16
Speaker
Nice, man.
Timeless Appeal of 'Tin Cup'
01:13:17
Speaker
all right. ah Can you still watch and enjoy in 2026? Freaking right you can. It's freaking super frustrating as my kid. It's yeah well shot, well acted, well written. Just even if you don't like golf,
01:13:32
Speaker
It's Kevin Costner, man. His friggin' charisma has aged like fine wine. It's delightful. It's funny. Yeah, and it's yeah it's ah it's a good one. I didn't see it like on any streaming services, but you could you watch it on Amazon Prime.
01:13:47
Speaker
You can rent it on YouTube or Apple. um Yeah, you can rent it for $3.99. That's the only place I saw it. I watched it on my DVD, on my computer. That's the move with the special features. Yeah. All right. ah Thank you
Closing and Next Episode Preview
01:14:01
Speaker
guys for listening. Thanks, Ron Shelton, so much for his time. Yeah, man. That was so great. and What's next? We'll be back in two weeks with Mars Attacks.
01:14:11
Speaker
Oh, man. Very excited. you Two branches of government working for you, and that ain't bad. um Yeah, super excited. Faya con Dios.
01:14:21
Speaker
Faya con Dios.
01:14:31
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Movie Life Crisis. Please subscribe, rate, and review, and remember, don't drive angrily.