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Episode 9 - Curiosity with Guest Jonathan Astor
78 Plays2 years ago
In this episode, Paul and Martin (co-Mayors of ADHDville) are joined by Jonathan Astor, Founder of Messy Mondays to talk about the gifts that being curious brings us. Paul is shocked to learn about Kitchen Hob preferences, and Martin has his head blown clean off by Jonathan's revelations (despite protective headgear).
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Messy Monday Links:
Email: jonathan@messy-mondays.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-astor-0972645/
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Put quill to paper and send us an email at: ADHDville@gmail.com
Theme music was written by Freddie Philips and played by Martin West. All other music by Martin West.
Please remember:
This is an entertainment podcast about ADHD and does not substitute for individualized advice from qualified health professionals.
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Transcript
Stove Burner Preferences and Emotional Connections
00:00:00
Speaker
am i the only one you know like when i when you look at the hob you know like the um the um the the stove top you got like four boners on it yeah i have different
00:00:14
Speaker
emotional feelings about each one. I trust the one that's the bottom left is my friend. The bottom right is like a sidekick and is fine. The back two, I kind of trust the back left one, but the back right one mistrust
00:00:38
Speaker
Really? That is my last resort of putting a pan on because it has evil intentions and I'm not sure why. Are you kidding? Did you just say it from Comic Effect? No. No, I had a... this conversation came up on Twitter.
00:01:00
Speaker
A while ago, someone else brought it up and all these people were in the comments going, yeah, I don't like the back left one or the back right one. I'm going, yeah, I now have, you know, like how it's the same with numbers. Right. So so people tend to like even numbers.
00:01:21
Speaker
And a little bit more suspicious of the odd numbers, like number three and seven. And they seem to have like seen sort of mystical qualities. It's in... It does have mystical qualities, isn't it? Yeah. It's infinity. Yeah. Yeah. I can relate to the whole... I can relate to the whole situation totally.
Introducing the Hosts and Podcast Theme
00:01:46
Speaker
I think that's because some of them work, some of them don't. Yeah. I've got my trusty little character.
00:01:51
Speaker
um on on the right hand side a little awkward character at the back that kind of like kind of comes on comes off the guy in the middle is packed up and my wife has a funny thing where she goes to a shop and there are two things left on the shelf and she needs to buy one of them she won't buy it because she feel that if she takes one she'll leave the other object all alone
00:02:16
Speaker
I feel like the only normal one today. So let's introduce Jonathan.
00:02:28
Speaker
the co-founder and coach of Messy Mondays, who joins us in the town hall. Great to be here, guys. All right. Well, now we're all here. Let's have the intro. Yeah, I know what I should have actually just said, Jonathan, co-founder, coach of Messy Mondays. Welcome to ADHD Reel. A, D, H, H, A, D,
00:03:11
Speaker
Thanks for joining us. This is so nice to be here. Yeah, our first guest. Our first guest. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you, Paul. Yeah, thanks so much, guys, for doing this as well, putting your necks on the line and, you know, raising your voices. Thank you. Yeah.
00:03:30
Speaker
Anyway, hello, I'm Paul Thompson. I was recently diagnosed with ADHD after 56 years of wondering if the squirrel that I was always distracted by was actually my doppelgäger in a cunning disguise. How am I, Martin Weston? I was diagnosed with ADHD 10 years ago, a decade, if you will.
00:04:00
Speaker
Well, I'm Jonathan. Oh, do I get I'm John? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I was diagnosed four months ago. So more quite new to this, but I guess it's always been around.
00:04:14
Speaker
So new, but very familiar. Lovely. So just to introduce our podcasts, as we always do, we're just, Martina and myself, we're two mates who by coincidence or not, after 39 years of friendship, discover that we're co ADHDers.
00:04:34
Speaker
Put in a little bit of context, Jonathan and I, we've been friends for about 25 years. Recently, it was five, six months ago, discovered that we're code HD as two, which is bizarre. All bizarre, very bizarre.
00:04:50
Speaker
Other weird thing is we all moved away from England around the same time 19 years ago. Martin used to move to New York. Jonathan moved to Copenhagen. And I used to move to Italy. Freaky. Officially freaked out. There you go.
ADHDville: An Imaginary Exploration
00:05:06
Speaker
So it's really important to say that at this point, this is an entertainment podcast about ADHD, adult ADHD, and does not substitute in any way for individualized advice from qualified health professionals. No, no, no. So don't take any advice from us. We're just here as a kind of all inclusive ADHD park bench with room for everyone, including your doppelgangers, your alter egos, your body doubles and your chaperones.
00:05:33
Speaker
I'm still here. Okay. So grab your thermos flask and let's take you to ADHDville, an imaginary town that we've created in our minds. It's got here in our minds where we like to explore different parts of ADHD.
00:05:51
Speaker
And we start off as always at the town hall in the mayor's office where we, the joint mayors of ADHD, take care of business, except we have Jonathan here, which is a huge pleasure. And the first thing we can talk about is always the first meeting on the agenda is how was our weeks? Good, bad, ugly. Who wants to start off? I can pitch in.
00:06:20
Speaker
pitch pitch pitch. Sure. I know that people are probably if you've listened to a previous episode are concerned that the card lights on my dashboard all lit up like some sort of freaky Christmas tree and that and I was procrastinating about whether I should take it in or perhaps the car breaks going and I just
00:06:47
Speaker
die in a horrific ball of flame. But actually, it seems to sort of magically sorted itself out. So this is one of those times when procrastination may have won the day. And I think it's probably because I had crap on my sense and it just cleaned itself off.
Jonathan's Reflections on ADHD Diagnosis
00:07:14
Speaker
And it was fine. It's like, it's like, that's what you always wish for, is it? When you procrastinate, please just like, you know, sort yourself out, you know, by yourself. Sometimes occasionally it wins. Don't add to the ADHD tax, you know, that, that cumulative cost over 50 years of like, Oh God, your car blew up as mine did once. Cause I couldn't be asked to take it into the, into the mechanic.
00:07:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I had an accident because I couldn't be asked to get the tires changed. Oof. Because they were slick by the time I put new ones on. Fucking awful. Yeah. How are you still here? How are you still here? Still haven't broken the bone either. Is that relevant? I don't know. Well, it is to you, I would guess.
00:08:13
Speaker
So, how about you, Jonathan? How was your week? Yeah. Thanks for asking. It's really funny that before I go into my good, bad and ugly, you mentioned, you know, it's a late diagnosis for me. And so I start getting flashbacks to stuff that happened in the past. And we're like, ah, that was the ADHD.
00:08:34
Speaker
And when you mentioned your carpool, I had similar experiences, which is really interesting, where I used to drive on like, you know, back then, like, you know, four or five pounds of petrol at a time, I'd go into a petrol station, and I'd only put five pounds in, because I couldn't wait to go out and then always run out of petrol. And second and to boot and come in because it on the second point is
00:08:59
Speaker
I had a car with a steering wheel where you turned left, it turned right, and right, and left. What? I can't believe that I thought that was okay. Now, once you ended up in Copenhagen, you were supposed to end up in New York. Exactly. Totally the wrong way. Exactly. That's bizarre. Thanks for the reminder, Paul.
00:09:29
Speaker
I do that every week. I leave it to the last minute. I hate going into petrol stations. I hate them. And then you get that horrible feeling. You're down. I think I once I was in the middle of nowhere in Sicily, literally middle of nowhere, midnight. I had 21 kilometres of fuel left. Oh, and I know the feeling. I almost feeling physically sick.
00:09:55
Speaker
I've been in that situation where I've run out of petrol on the top of a hill, got some people to push me to the top, and then when I rolled down, obviously, the petrol went into the engine so I could drive home. And actually, that happened more times than it should do, but it all seemed like it never stopped, and it was kind of like, okay. It was so not okay. That's crazy. Yeah, let's crack on. How was your week, Paul?
00:10:21
Speaker
Uh, still, well, you know, it's such a theme at the moment. It's same as it's like, I've been overwhelmed at the moment, uh, diagnosed a couple of two or three weeks after Jonathan. Yes. Still in that place. And, uh, I'm kind of looking forward to a bit of a break at Christmas. I need to like, cause we'd be, we started the podcast literally the same week as I got my diagnosis. Yeah.
00:10:46
Speaker
And I haven't had a chance to like, Oh, do you know what? I need to like a week of not thinking about ADHD.
ADHD as Gift and Challenge
00:10:54
Speaker
Let it, let it go. Shake it out. Yeah. All right. So yeah. Okay. So, all right. Well, let's get, uh, so item number two, where are we going today? Polio.
00:11:09
Speaker
Where are you going? Yes. Yeah. Where are we all going? Actually, my first question is, what's your name in Italian? Is it just Paul? Paolo. Paolo. All right. Paolo. In theory, my surname would be translated as Tomazzoni. Paolo Tomazzoni. All right, then Paolo Tomazzoni. Where are we going today?
00:11:35
Speaker
Well, Marty, thanks for asking. We're going to take a trick down to the cafe, get a, you know, you know, we're going to get a coffee based on our, on our personal whims. All right. Well, okay. Well, we're always have to squeeze into the mayor's taxi. So let's jump in and we'll head over to the cafe. We'll have a bigger car next time, Jonathan. Promise we have a bigger car. Happy for the ride.
00:12:14
Speaker
I think I'm gonna get like a, I had a caramel, no, it was like a shortbread latte.
00:12:23
Speaker
shortbread and peppermint last I think I had the other week. Yeah. Okay. What's, what's your, um, what's your tip or Jonathan at the, uh, in terms of coffee? It's a flat, it's a flat white that's almost got a bit like fashionable and kind of no big deal nowadays. Uh, but I was drinking them back in the day. Okay. Okay.
00:12:49
Speaker
I was once, I was once, God, is it funny? Things are popping in my mind. I was in London two or three years ago. I went into a Starbucks. I think it was near Piccadilly or Trafalgar Square. No, Trafalgar Square. And I said, could I have an espresso, please? And she says, so the lady says, yeah, sure. I said, oh, could you add just a little bit more hot water to it, though? At which point she turned around and looked at the men, she says,
00:13:18
Speaker
No, I can't do that. And she asked her why. She said because it hasn't got a name.
00:13:28
Speaker
And what? What? So it's no what? It's a espresso. So it's just the thing. But like, it's a little bit more hot water in it. She looked. No, hasn't got a name. So I had to order a American coffee. I think she was ADHD. Did have a picture, didn't have a name. Sorry, mate off. Just can't do that for you.
00:13:50
Speaker
All right. I, but I'm, I, I've stopped drinking coffee, so I'm on really dull kind of, uh, what are they called? Uh, ginseng coffee. It's pretty dull.
00:14:04
Speaker
OK. All right. Well, anyway, we're in our coffee and we have our coffees. We're sitting down. So so messy Mondays. Let's. Hmm. Well, we can either start there or we can start with like ADHD. God, I'm such a shit interviewer.
00:14:26
Speaker
No, I get it. I like the question. Being a messy Monday person, exactly the kind of question I love. Do you want me to start on my ADHD journey? Why not? Let's start there. And how it kind of like maybe comes into it. I was diagnosed four or five months ago. And I think that's been like a drawing a line in the sand in time. Lots of things kind of like make sense. And it's been like a
00:14:56
Speaker
on the whole, a nice journey of self awareness of added knowledge to what I know already. And then some unknowns of really understanding God, there's something happening in my brain that is neurobiological. And that's kind of like, what is that about? But it's been really helpful for me to know, oh, yeah, my whole system has been
00:15:26
Speaker
like relaxed by it and calmed just by knowing. And even though there are anxieties in the unknown of this neurobiological gift and disability on the whole, I feel calmer and more present because of it. Right. Because it's almost like, oh, it's not a personality flaw.
00:15:47
Speaker
It's not some sort of lack of morals in, you know, in me. It's just like, it is a literal, you know, it's a thing in my brain and it's wired a certain way and that's why. So it almost, it takes some of that kind of sting out of it. Yeah, but lets the work out in some way on that level.
00:16:15
Speaker
If you look at it or talk about it, it says we're a victim, you will become something in the language if you hear yourself say it enough. That's exactly how you approach it, rather than kind of the harder way, really, is to think, what if it's like,
00:16:32
Speaker
Some people have a real problem with talking about gifts and superpowers. They say it's a bit kind of survivalist language. I think it's neither one or the other probably. It doesn't have to be judged at all. Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think it's part disability and part gift. And it's the question of understanding both.
00:16:58
Speaker
appreciating it's a disability and giving yourself practical support, but not at the expense of not seeing the fact that there's, you know, benefit from that, thank God, of having, you know, being able to think differently. And hopefully on the disability side, get all the help so you can take your gift to the world as well. So they kind of work hand in hand, but you have to accept both.
Purpose and Creativity in ADHD Management
00:17:23
Speaker
But maybe a part of me does look towards the gifts
00:17:27
Speaker
maybe as a slight I don't I have accepted my position in many ways of kind of having ADHD, but a part of me resists it a little bit. And maybe turning towards gifts is a slight defensive mechanic on some level, but it's mostly like a belief, a belief that actually, you know, a deep belief that there are some assets here that could be beneficial for other people. And I'm starting to put that into practice very slowly.
00:17:56
Speaker
Right, because you know, because you're you've had enough years under your belt, right, to kind of look back on your life and kind of go, well, actually, I've done a lot of amazing things. Yeah. Right. And definitely.
00:18:11
Speaker
And ADHD plays a part in that and sure, I've had some, there's some downsides as well, but at least you can kind of look back and you can see where it's been a gift, right? And then it's like, then you start to think, well, actually, if I can get out of my own way, if I can find techniques, if I can find ways, if I can work out how my brain works the best,
00:18:37
Speaker
then I can make more of the good stuff and suffer less of the bad stuff. It's that creative thinking that we've always been so good at. Now it's time to really come to the fore, you know? Okay, let's get creative about, okay, how can I bring the best out of who I am? Yeah, and also look at some purpose behind it. I really, really give a bit of research. I'll spare you all the details. Of course, I could go into them.
00:19:07
Speaker
um but I won't um um and they had a really compelling line in there that I really liked that it mentioned that with neurodiversity and they mentioned ADHD they mentioned quote it comes as a um cost to the individual which it does but at a benefit to society now of course you know everybody is a benefit to society but those words
00:19:34
Speaker
grabbed my attention, it does come at a huge cost to the person, because it's a sweat. You know, what I just realized that what some people don't even have to flinch at, I do. Right? What is a thing for me is not a thing for other people. However, that's one side of it. The other side of it is, you know, thank God there's something in there in terms of
00:19:56
Speaker
thinking differently, thinking divergently and applying that. I felt like, you know, I want to raise the flag and take that to the world and like show that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't want to be anything other than I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't change it for anything. Yeah, exactly. I wouldn't change it either. Sometimes it's before I went on the ADHD journey, I was on the trauma journey.
00:20:21
Speaker
And I became a trauma-informed coach. I thought the reason why I behave like I do is because of my upbringing and maybe traumatic responses. And with the diagnosis, I can see which ones are my upbringing and which ones are ADHD. And obviously, they combine and work together. And on that journey, the gifts sometimes can be misconstrued as maybe hyper adjustments. And is it a gift or is it like a kind of like a gift or is it like a coping mechanism?
00:20:52
Speaker
Is the coping mechanism a gift or is there another gift that lives outside the coping mechanism? Oh wow, there we go. Are we getting deep now? Yeah, too deep. No, no, no, no, no. It's the Copenhagen winters. They do this things here. But in that trauma, in that specific moment of trauma or period of trauma, people can go off in all kinds of tangents, you know.
00:21:18
Speaker
um if you're lucky you you go off on a on a positive tangent you know you become maybe maybe i've always thought of myself as being hypersensitive
00:21:34
Speaker
and always gave myself a hard time for being hypersensitive. It was like something to be kind of ashamed about. Then I turned it into something I was actually adored about me, you know? I think that's a nice way to look at it. That's what got me through, you know? But as you sort of go back to the, it could go off in loads at that time, that trauma could go off in all kinds of tangents and concepts. Definitely. I think trauma is very similar because it has a neurobiological impact.
00:22:04
Speaker
when we're so young, especially when something happens by having like, you know, parents that are undiagnosed with ADHD, which was my story. And that had an impact on me with they couldn't emotionally regulate themselves in order to emotionally regulate an individual that being me that couldn't emotionally regulate himself by virtue of birth, but also because of, you know, and your diversity as well. So that's kind of like kind of like, you know, and what happens in
00:22:32
Speaker
in that scenario and unpacking all of that. Right. Because the tail wagging the dog. Definitely. You were saying earlier that, you know, that you end up with these coping mechanisms and do they become a gift and you kind of think, well, yeah, they probably do, you know, like, because we were talking just a while back about how, um,
00:23:00
Speaker
how ADHD people can be really good in a crisis, for example, and our coping mechanisms for our own crises in our own lives end up being, you know, quite useful skills. Beautiful. I think skill is a good word there. Because I think when you said that, say the example, many people with ADHD, many of us might
00:23:27
Speaker
have a pleasing, a pleaser in order to fit in. There can be like a pleasing mechanic. And that's a coping mechanism in order to fit in. It can become a skill in terms of collaboration. The question is, in the very moment when you're doing it, are you a choice? Are you doing it through your own control? Are you doing it in order to survive? I think that's one side of looking at coping mechanisms. But the other side of it definitely gives us a skill. You know, on the trauma side of things,
00:23:57
Speaker
me living in a very fearful upbringing meant that I could do strategy work really well where companies paid me to be fearful on their behalf, thinking of the future being anxious for them, which I turned into a skill.
Transforming ADHD Coping Skills
00:24:11
Speaker
But then there's this beautiful area of gift. You still there, guys? Yeah, I just froze on my side. There's this other area outside skills. That's more like gift.
00:24:24
Speaker
like, you know, the gift of using a characteristic at choice, not as a survival mechanic, but at choice to do something quite amazing. A basic example could be Einstein was able to hyper focus the level where he could split an atom. It's pretty good focus where I stand. Yeah, right. And it's those gifts that I'm interested in where you're a choice. And as Einstein went down the rabbit hole,
00:24:52
Speaker
He was unbelievably curious and that spurned his kind of like lust to get into something and hyper focus. And I think that's a gift because it's got an expansive feeling. It's exciting getting into something.
00:25:07
Speaker
But it's not so exciting, people-pleasing, if you see what I mean. What I'd offer on that is, on my part, I've always been an overthinker, like Jesus Christ, like over and over in London and a rabbit hole. You know, that's what I used to call it. It's like, here we go. I used to stop myself for like half an hour or an hour into this rabbit hole overthinking discussion in my head.
00:25:36
Speaker
coming out the other end. How the hell did I get here? But that turned into a skill because later I got better at filtering out the crap. I got better at like, okay, what are the useful thoughts? What are the thoughts that are not useful? And I got better at filtering. And so, you know, I came out the other end with a pretty highly trained mind. Like,
00:26:02
Speaker
overthink it yeah but it turned yeah it turned into a positive yeah beautiful i'm used to playing with like loads of concepts you know juggling concepts in my mind i love that i love that i think um oh i think that gift i'm not sure if martin can um also um agree with that is that is that something you can relate to in relation to kind of like you know going down a rabbit hole and
00:26:29
Speaker
seeing through a wide lens, loads of possibilities, probably getting lost in it, but understanding that kind of like world. Oh yeah, kind of talk about the gifts of ADHD and we're talking about curiosity and it almost seems to me that
00:26:50
Speaker
when you become curious about yourself and about how your brain works and about why you're doing things, why do you rabbit hole about something or overthink something and then you become curious about yourself and you kind of learn about yourself and out of that comes insight.
00:27:12
Speaker
And then that insight then turns into, you know, like it becomes a thing that you can then play around with and turn it into a tool that you can then apply to yourself, you know, and then that becomes a gift, right? So it's this kind of nice little process of curiosity, you know, makes gifts. 100%, 100%.
00:27:42
Speaker
I'm hoping what I'm about to say might blow you away. It just blew me away just thinking about it. So maybe I'm blown away and nobody else will be. And that will be okay. I might have to put on two hats just to make sure that my head stays on. Yes. All right. I've got to spark up a cigar. Yeah, of course. I love that. Dopamine is, you know, when we're curious and interested, we have dopamine there. So actually the lack of dopamine
00:28:12
Speaker
and the look and search for dopamine in interesting things seems to me to be quite purposeful. There's just a theory that one of the reasons why we lack dopamine is so we can be forced to go out into the world and find our own.
ADHD's Evolutionary Role and Societal Impact
00:28:28
Speaker
And we find our own in stuff that's interesting and maybe could be interesting for others. The ultimate hunter-gatherer. Something like that. Something like that.
00:28:41
Speaker
you're a neurological hunter-gatherers. Yeah, yeah. You're saying that there's an evolutionary kind of pattern, if you like, in a society that says it kind of needs a percentage of peoples whose brains work in a certain way so that
00:29:06
Speaker
They go out and do new things, invent new tools, you know, push. There is research on that exact point, on the same place where I found that, you know, cost benefit.
00:29:21
Speaker
um of ADHD was where I saw that research on this evolutionary need for divergent thinking. I mean for man to survive and for the gene pool to survive it needs divergent thinking. The genes need to like change and evolve and neurodiverse uh diversity is
00:29:41
Speaker
When you have a neuro, when you have the same gene pool, we stagnate. When you have a diverse, we evolve. And so that's documented. I don't know if that's proven, but it's documented in some good research.
00:29:54
Speaker
And these are nice things to think about. And obviously, I always go back to the initial thing, which is, but it still comes at a cost to the individual. Because to get there is like a lot of stress, right? Internal stress. Society is instructed for it. That's why. Society is instructed for... Good point.
00:30:15
Speaker
You know, it's, you know, it's hard to find a kind of a soft, comfortable kind of armchair, you know, if you're, if you tend to feel like an alien all the time. Right. A hundred percent. That's a really interesting note, Jonathan. That's really interesting. Yeah. It's really, so people like you who are taking ADHD to the world and in any shape and form and whatever stories you have to tell, you're doing great work.
00:30:40
Speaker
You're doing great work in getting the world to adjust and understand. I'll ask you this question, Jonathan, because we're quite new into this. I'm learning to talk about it and
00:30:54
Speaker
not be it, I'm not being it, but when I communicate it and represent it of that kind of neurological diversity, but represent it with pride, or if you like, represent it without shame. No, exactly. 100%, pride's lovely, without shame, definitely. Acceptance as well, without the label.
00:31:20
Speaker
I can relate to all all of that where that's why that's why I'm into the gift where I don't want the label. I'm not sure if that's just part of my journey of accepting it, where it doesn't matter. Sometimes the label is helpful. It's helpful for me to know that I have ADHD, because then for me, it calms my system down. It's got an explanation. My wife understands why I act like I do, my kids do. And that's cool. But in other scenarios, maybe I don't want the label.
00:31:47
Speaker
And I haven't quite worked out and I'm not brave enough in that space yet to go out into the world and say, hey, I have ADHD. Please don't judge me. I get I pretty fear the judgment. So the gift part of it becomes a rather than label anything. Here's what
Community Support and Acceptance of ADHD
00:32:04
Speaker
I do. Judge me by what I've done. And the enjoyment of the experience of being with me, if that makes sense, which can be hit and miss actually sometimes.
00:32:12
Speaker
I I do like that, you know, because when you do label yourself with ADHD, it's helpful that you can find fellow ADHD is right. So you can feel like you're a part of a community or even, you know, so so ADHD ville is like a little is an expression of the community. And we're kind of putting a place on the on the map as well. This is a
00:32:41
Speaker
you know, this is where you find yourself. But and that's cool. But then as you as you say, many people are out in the workforce trying to find jobs or whatever, working with people. And it's it's much more difficult, as Paul was saying earlier, that the society is I think is only just starting to to wrap its head around mental health and about neurodivergent people and, you know, and they're not
00:33:10
Speaker
the weird people that we want to work for. It's also a political element, unfortunately. Definitely. In the UK, there's a political element. The other element, because I do the social work on TikTok and Instagram, et cetera.
00:33:33
Speaker
Generally, the people that stand out in a kind of neurodiverse community generally are the extroverted ADHD people.
00:33:44
Speaker
you know, generally, you know, all kinds of colors are wonderful people is quite extraordinary. If you do, I do and you just like you, you trolled the TikTok and, you know, engage with that on that side of things. But that all lovely people with generally the extrovert end of ADHD as well.
00:34:04
Speaker
Well, I have my moments, apparently, we're all a bit extrovert, we're all a bit introvert. But, you know, it's not, they're not necessarily representative of the total, you know, 100% representative of the community. You know, there are people that keep it quiet, you know, and they didn't necessarily want to, you know, sing from the rooftops about it. And then the question, well, it's cool, but maybe sometimes it's also, are they keeping themselves quiet?
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And you know, I'm seeing some extroverted people who run lovely channels, and they're so damn free and being being themselves. And it's lovely to see
00:34:52
Speaker
It's like, it's kind of, you know, you know, part of me like roots. Absolutely. But I'm not sure. But I get worried about how other people might view them. And whether there be any judgments on that in the world. But it's a really tough area. As you said, Paul, the world hasn't caught up
00:35:14
Speaker
with that, but there's a beauty to that. I really like the expression, you may as well be yourself because everyone else has already been taken. Definitely. And you get to our age, and it's like you lose a bit of the shame, you know? You realise that all the barriers you put in front of yourselves, there's a limit of your potential as a person, as a human, are mostly bullshit. 100%. 100%.
00:35:44
Speaker
Nice. So we can talk about Messy Mondays, perhaps. Why did you start it? I founded Messy Mondays two or three years ago. I found my piece with creating an entity where I can collaborate with great people.
00:36:07
Speaker
without being tied to people, without them being tied to me, without us being tied to an office. And that's like a real vulnerable, yet really valuable work in progress, where I have collaborators who can do things that I can't do. And together, we're taking like an entity to the world, which I'll explain.
Curiosity and Empathy in Work Environments
00:36:28
Speaker
Messy Mondays is all about, you know, bringing out our authentic self.
00:36:34
Speaker
to the world. It's about all and that means going through and sharing everything that feels messy within us, which the world doesn't really kind of like always know how to embrace cultures don't know how to cultivate that find space for it to be vulnerable, to promote awareness sharing. And it started off on that that's what messy Mondays meant.
00:36:59
Speaker
And the Mondays was kind of like the work like it's in how do you deal with the messiness of our inner worlds in the workplace? Right, you know so we can make some money out of it kind of thing so so we can make some cash out of it and also it was a good departure from Strategy that I used to do for many big companies And so I can make a little shift into it's not only the strategy guys, but it's also that not the what you're doing But how are you doing it together?
00:37:24
Speaker
and what's going on between you. And that becomes quite an interesting melange. So at the moment, I'm focusing on applying human values to challenges, technology that people kind of use and have. An example of that would be, how do you apply curiosity for a leadership team that I'm working with? How do you apply curiosity when you give feedback to each other?
00:37:52
Speaker
which sounds like, okay, feedback sounds quite boring, but when you apply curiosity to it, you start getting into a feedback session where the person offering the feedback doesn't fear judgment. They receive other people's curiosity. And when that happens, that becomes very beautiful. That's called empathic curiosity. And the help companies work on
00:38:21
Speaker
their curiosity. I also help in other areas, but I thought for this focus, I'd focus on curiosity, also to limit myself. Because when you get into curiosity, you also get into awareness, vulnerability, intuition, because it's quite a large topic. But
00:38:43
Speaker
helping companies apply my ADHD gift of curiosity sounds very natural. Well, when I stand up there and I present and I'm there with my, you know, pontificating, you know, like I know my stuff, I feel like I do know I do know my stuff. And I think what's really funny, guys, that when you mentioned before, Paul, about going down the rabbit hole, when you look at the theory of curiosity, there are three kinds of curiosity. There's the divisive curiosity,
00:39:11
Speaker
And I'm not going to give a lecture, but that's the bit you're talking about. The textbooks talk about like like a child, like I like this or that shiny. That's fun. Being on your social media kind of that's divisive. But at some point it needs to move from, you know, as you mentioned, you you become really good at managing your mind into epistemic curiosity where you don't focus on everything. You focus just on one thing, but you go deep. And then the interesting thing here, I think, is the
00:39:42
Speaker
that I like to bring to the table now because it's more interesting than my lecture probably, is the feeling of wonder. The feeling of generally asking what's possible here. And the final...
00:39:55
Speaker
exactly what potentially, I think I think he wants to get connection as well, where when I work with people on curiosity, and they start getting into a general state of being received in an environment of curiosity, they start wondering, like, not what's possible, because normally they present their strategy, and people help them like, develop it through curiosity and removing judgment. But rather than thinking what's possible for my work, they start moving into a space of what's possible for me.
00:40:24
Speaker
Like, you know, what could I be? What if? Oh, yeah. Wow. And that wonderment, that reflection can take you down the rabbit hole of thinking, well, what if, yeah. And the reflection that I think we have naturally can be applied to neurotypicals to enjoy that experience. Because when you get into it, it's lovely. And then you're right, Paul, you produced dopamine and you and you can't you know it when it happens. And when they get that, they say things like this was a very special moment.
00:40:54
Speaker
Okay, granted, admittedly, that's only happened once or twice. However, when that does happen, and they say, this is a special moment, they're feeling the dopamine, their minds have opened to the possibilities there. And I can relate to that excitement of going down the rabbit hole with a wonderment. And that's kind of like, maybe potentially in the realm of gift,
00:41:20
Speaker
a gift that I can guide people is I know what that feels like. And it becomes like, you know, like a felt experience with them. They can apply to their work. Yeah, because you because you end up with, you know, when you do work in these companies is that it's normally very structured, right? It's very rigid. You know, you have your lane and you have to swim in it.
00:41:44
Speaker
and you don't generally want to play, to be curious, right? Because you're there to fill a certain role, you know, you're allowing people a safe space, right? To be curious and then see what comes out. Beautiful. Something that's come to mind is, I have a bit of a theory about
00:42:12
Speaker
when authenticity comes from an authentic, comes from a vulnerable place, okay? Because we're all vulnerable. And if you say you're not vulnerable, then you've really not, you've maybe started on the road of self discovery. For instance, Albert Einstein was apparently, he was crippled by imposter syndrome.
00:42:39
Speaker
until his dying day. So what if Einstein, you know, part of his superpower was that he did come from a place of vulnerability, you know, 100%, 100%. I think this is where the coaching comes in. So when I run these courses and workshops, the very initial stage is to get everybody
00:43:01
Speaker
when it's not one on one and it's a group or a team, or sometimes even it's a cross collaboration between two teams where it gets really exciting because they're normally in silos, but that aside, the vulnerability becomes key where we all circle up and we do a sharing circle and we get into a space where people feel safe.
00:43:25
Speaker
because you need to feel safe to share your curiosities because you could make mistakes. They could be...
00:43:32
Speaker
slightly embarrassing. It's kind of like they're very personal to share to share ideas. But it is a lovely experience when you're with a group and you've got the psychological safety. And then people allow themselves to be curious and widen their lens and play like you said, Martin. And part of it is we do applied improvisation.
00:43:56
Speaker
where we we do improv games with them where they get a chance to play and rather than think actually just move from they get their gut feeling and they tend to love being in that position because we all love playing and from there you can start wondering exploring and being curious. There's another thing you mentioned Jonathan about part of your methodology is about
00:44:24
Speaker
people writing down their impressions of the people that are in the same room. Thanks for remembering that. So part of my coaching was all about, hmm, how can I box this? One element was it, like we have the imposter syndrome, like you mentioned, we sometimes have very harsh judges of ourselves, like the inner critic.
00:44:49
Speaker
And it's always there. It's pushing us. It's saying, hey, without me, you're not going to get there. But obviously, we need to get into a relationship with that guy because it's not always healthy. Yeah, that's what I do. Before the session starts, or as part of the module early on, I ask everyone to write down questions, to write down judgments about the presenter.
00:45:14
Speaker
worries, fears, and they put it into a book. And then I pick up the books. And I say, keep writing right until you're exhausted. And then they write them, I pick the book up. And as a ritual, let's move it outside the room. And I'll say, we're going to come back to those judgments at the end. So don't worry, because our critical thinking is important, right, but not at this stage of the process. And then we do the curious feedback session, or sessions. And at the end, I give them the books back,
00:45:44
Speaker
And this is the thing I asked them, Hey, guys, open your books, what questions do you want to ask now? And nobody wants to ask anything. Because the curiosity finds the way to find the answers, not the judgments. And that becomes a really kind of interesting kind of like mechanic and dynamic. I tested that. And it happened to have worked. Because I believe judgment is a blockage to curiosity.
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, that's really interesting. I did a thing once where we did a similar thing and we divided up into two groups. One group stayed in the room, the other group went outside the room.
00:46:26
Speaker
and the group inside the room was told, right, the people from outside the room are going to come in one by one, they're just going to walk in the room, turn around and walk out the room, right? And they're all going to be trying to kind of display some sort of character or personalize, you know, something about their personality or something, right? They're going to try and exude something for you.
00:46:53
Speaker
And then us on the outside of the room, we were told, just go in there completely neutral. Don't try and give anything away, just be as blank as you can possibly be. So we walk in the room, blank, walk out blank. And then everyone would write down Martin and then what their thoughts were.
00:47:20
Speaker
And then after we'd done that exercise, we're all back in the room. And then, of course, everyone who's inside the room just overlaid their own judgments onto that person, you know, where they say,
00:47:35
Speaker
Martin, yeah, he was aloof, arrogant, whatever, right? They were just right there, little thing about what their judgment was. And then they were shocked to find out that we're all trying to be as blank as possible, you know? And that just highlights how judgments are like, just get in the way, like they're just right there automatically.
00:48:06
Speaker
Andy Hopkins, when he played Hannibal Lecter, a journalist said, how come your character, Hannibal Lecter, is so scary? He said, do you know what I do to scare, really scare people? He said, what do you do? He said, I do absolutely nothing. Because people's imaginations are way more scary than any facial expression I can pull off.
00:48:33
Speaker
Beautiful. That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. And these are nice examples of kind of like, I think there's cognitive dissonance of how we do judge people, strangers. And then in the workplace, it's even worse where people are judging each other's work, judging each other's, you know, you know, and have fears for these people. And they just get in the way of
00:49:00
Speaker
creating great ideas. And most importantly, when you're giving feedback to someone, when you're coming from a place of judgments, people feel it. But when people come to you with a place of curiosity, where they want to know the answer from you, where they don't know the answer, you know, it gives you such a platform to kind of like feel good about receiving feedback and good about developing something. It's very hard to move when you know someone's judging you.
00:49:27
Speaker
it's very nice to know and questions questions then is second bit where I've realized over the years I asked myself lots of questions like what's possible here um um you know what's blocking me here what do they really need why all these great questions that I ask myself that can take up a lot of time in searching and overthinking like you mentioned Paul if you can
00:49:53
Speaker
contain that, those powerful questions, just the question, hey, what's possible here? You know, and I did a thing where you ask someone, what's possible here, when they say something they'd like to do, and you keep asking them that same question 20 times, they get to something really valuable. And so, so, so I think all the questions that I've asked myself over the years,
00:50:16
Speaker
I'm finally realizing there's a gift in that level of reflection that I always took for granted. And I think people don't always get the time to reflect as well. So it's a valuable space in that way. Someone once asked Malcolm Gladwell what he thought was the definitive definition of intelligence. He said, someone who can change their mind.
00:50:43
Speaker
Somebody can change their mind. Beautiful. And, you know, and it's something I play with if I'm really. Convinced about a idea or a, or a standing standpoint that I have, I play a game and the game starts with what if, what if I, what if I was wrong? What if I am wrong and it's a great game to play.
00:51:08
Speaker
What if I'm wrong? What if the judgment I've made in reality is the complete polar opposite of what I thought it was? I love that. I love that question. I think that's another powerful question that brings out curiosity and people, which is, what if I'm wrong? When I work with executives,
00:51:26
Speaker
I'm going to use that question, Paul. We do a thing called obliquity, where you look at a problem from a different perspective. You don't look at the data. You don't look at your intuition. You ask a question, well, all the questions that throw people like, what happens if you're wrong? And I think that's a really nice, like, wonderment. And on your part of what intelligence is, I read once that they say that there's a quotient that passion plus interest is greater than intelligence.
00:51:55
Speaker
Which is which is which is interesting to think about I mean that's very much the ADHD brain Which is having yeah to be really down that rabbit hole passionately curious dopamine firing.
Understanding ADHD's Past Impact
00:52:05
Speaker
I mean who can beat that force? Yeah
00:52:13
Speaker
Yeah. Just go, go back to reason. I've mentioned this thing about, you know, what if, and questioning myself, it's because in my past when I was under diagnosed, obviously, cause I was only diagnosed a couple of months ago, but looking back and thinking about all the, all the kind of terrible kind of, well, all the avoidable things I could have done. If I'd only, you know, given it a name, you know,
00:52:42
Speaker
and just not being very good at, you know, thinking on the spot, you know, in various situations, what if, Paul, what if you're wrong? What if they're not standing your way on purpose just to piss you off? What if they're just having a bad day? What if you're neurologically diverse? You know, blah, blah, blah. You know, yeah. And the funny thing about that is it works both ways, right?
00:53:10
Speaker
when you work with other people or see other people, like, what if I'm wrong about them? And, you know, in many ways where it kind of cuts both ways of, you know, it's not just a self reflection about you, it's whatever I'm wrong about somebody else. And that's very interesting to think about, too. Maybe this, you know, I find it as easier to, as I'm biased towards my own dysfunctional behavior than I am with others.
00:53:35
Speaker
And that reminds me to just be a bit more kind of like, yeah, what, what are they going through kind of thing? And, and, and what if I'm wrong, but their dysfunctional behavior doesn't mean they don't like me, they're lazy, they're not interested or whatever. It means they have a problem with something else that has nothing to do with me. And I think that's a very interesting perspective as well, to be like empathically curious about other people, let alone yourself and your subject matter.
00:54:00
Speaker
Nice. Even if you can't bring apathy to every situation, that would be exhausting. But, you know, you can get better trained and more intuitive about whether your empathy is best placed. Definitely. And I think curiosity is a simple enough answer and curiosity in a question format. What question could I ask here that overrides a statement or judgment?
00:54:27
Speaker
Right. OK, so we so we're coming up on the hour. So I know, right. So, you know, is there is there one thing that we haven't talked about that you feel like? You know, that we've missed.
Humor and Light-hearted Reflections
00:54:50
Speaker
Hmm, I was going to come up with a cheeky aside.
00:54:53
Speaker
which is a fun bit saying, how did you guys end up looking so close, so, so similar to each other? How did that happen? My son last week said, he said, my son, cause we pop, he said, pop, you and Martin are exactly the same. That's even my son. That's not like, you know, he knows me pretty well, you know? Yeah. Yeah. What's all that about? Yeah.
00:55:20
Speaker
has its charm as well. Has its charm as well? It's a charming double act. I'd like to ask you a question. We had a really interesting chat about you and your relationship with music and rhythm and dancing.
00:55:35
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. Nice, nice. I agree. Like I, I, I, there's a guy that there's the guy, what's his name? One of the, one written, one of the best books on ADHD delivered from restriction. John R. Raiti. He said that dance is the best thing by far for ADHD. So it's something that comes up over, you know, quite, quite a lot. And you had something really interesting to say about it.
00:56:02
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. We both were talking, won't we Paul, about our dancing and our partners' perspectives on our dancing. And we found a similarity in the fact that we're both like, you know, unique dancers when we're looking at it.
00:56:20
Speaker
Gifted dancers. Gifted, gifted, gifted. Exactly. And with the added... I feel like we should have a group hug now. Can we have a group hug? Or a group dance, even. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah. We can huddle. We can huddle with pleasure. My wife happens to be a professional dancer as well. She's a jazz ballet dancer and has done musical theatre her whole life in big stages. So she knows how to dance. And what's funny is that she noticed with my dancing, because I dance around the kitchen and, you know, at the city, around the house, like we all do.
00:56:50
Speaker
Um, and she noticed that she looks at me when I dance and she looks at me, she goes, can I, it's not, of course it's what the fuck is that? Definitely. But it's more a question of how are you managing to dance on the, like the off beats? Like it's all, it's almost, I don't, I find that I'm, my tone for music is very good.
00:57:14
Speaker
like very good. I can, you know, pick up a tune, pick up a tone, but when it comes to music itself, the beats, I find it like with maybe with chess or whatever. I don't know the same part of the brain. I can't count the beats. And so I don't know when to come in. You know, when I count, you know, one, two, three, four, it's like one, two, seven banana dance. It's like, you know, I don't know what the hell is going on. And I find it hard to like, but she mentioned I come in on the offbeat.
00:57:39
Speaker
and that's the bit I'm gonna throw out there and that's okay it's it's it's like I'm not dancing to the normal rhythm which is actually
00:57:49
Speaker
would make sense, potentially, if I lent myself to the romance of that particular analogy. You come from the Miles Davis school, it's not about the notes, it's about the spaces in between. Yeah, I think that's... You're dancing in between the notes. That's what you're doing. I'm not even sure if they're in between, they're kind of like above and below and sometimes not even on, you know, just... Underneath. Underneath, I still haven't got to the bottom of it, but
00:58:18
Speaker
It's a wonderment. All right. Cool. All right. So we just get to the last question, which we will ask every guest is we are now in ADHDville. This is your town just as much as it is ours. So you get the opportunity to
00:58:41
Speaker
to take over a building, a part of, you know, you can kind of put your little flag in ADHD, Phil. You're talking about real estate. Yeah. So where would you, what would you like to own in this lovely town?
00:59:05
Speaker
I have it, but I'm judging its lack of ambition. But nonetheless, I would like a Tacoville, which will be like a very small, bright taco and margarita and tequila station. Nice. Well, you have six or seven lovely tacos, lots of lime and margarita. And you can pop in, grab a taco, grab a drink and shoot off. Sounds friendly. Sounds intimate, friendly. Yeah.
00:59:34
Speaker
I like that. I'm hoping that's a welcome contribution. Tacoville, all right. It is. I just have to write that down. All right. I've been looking to see how that appreciates over time. Yeah, so we're going to call it John's to Tacoville, tacos and tequila, right? That's perfect. All right. Lovely.
Closing and Listener Engagement
01:00:00
Speaker
Right. We will we will get that
01:00:02
Speaker
You now own that. Beautiful. I'm very proud. I feel really happy about that actually. Yeah. Cool. All right. Are we going to take a trip, Martin? Yeah, we're just going to jump back with all of us. Jump back, squeeze in. Our budgets are tight. So, you know, we've got a, we've got a de Chevo.
01:00:25
Speaker
Yeah. And we'll just go back to the post office. Or should we just kind of go back to the town town hall? Let's go back to town hall. All right. And let's go the scenic route. There we go. Seen it. All right. So we're back in the town town hall.
01:00:50
Speaker
So first on my little agenda here is just to remind you that ADHD Ville is delivered fresh every Tuesday to all purveyors of fine podcasts. Please subscribe to the pod and rate us most marvellous. That would be great and feel free to correspond at will in our comments.
01:01:10
Speaker
Just don't be different. Anything but indifferent. Anything but indifferent. You could hate us, but that'd be better. I'd rather you hate us than be indifferent. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want to see our beautiful, beautiful faces and John's beautiful, beautiful face, you can head over to the YouTube's and see us there. We can write an email at the adhd.com.
01:01:39
Speaker
All right, so that's kind of basically the business. So I think we can thank John for being here, for being our guinea pig guest. Beautiful, beautiful to be here. Thanks so much, guys. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time and your generous application.
01:02:04
Speaker
What the hell does that mean? Generous application. I know. We're now just communicating the own language. I feel you guys. And again, thanks for holding this space so beautifully. It's been lovely to be in your presence and company, both of you. Thank you very much. We'd love to have you back sometime.
01:02:24
Speaker
So it just remains for all of us to dance out of the town hall and to John's Tacoville tacos. And we'll get some tequilas in us. And for the rest of you, thanks for being here. Check out our show notes for any links, because we'll put John's contact links in our show notes, if you're curious. And visit us on all the socials. But in the meantime, be fucking kind to yourself.
01:02:54
Speaker
And from me know thyself sons of the hounds come hither and get flesh Up in the Highlands and John Say goodbye very much. Hey, see you guys. This has been great. I Haven't got a quilt You don't need one There you get paid anyway, that's that