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8. Lucid Dreams and Astral Projection
69 Plays3 years ago
Today we discuss lucid dreaming and astral projection. We explore these practices as an alternative to psychedelics and much much more!
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Music By Nathan Willis RIP
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Transcript
Introduction and Gratitude
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to another episode of the pursuit of infinity podcast. Thank you for allowing us to fill your ear holes with our exchange of observations. We appreciate it. Cause all you have is time and you're giving some of it to us. So thank you for that.
Exploring Lucid Dreaming and Astral Projection
00:00:15
Speaker
Joe has recently begun a deep dive on the topics of lucid dreaming and astral projection. We've been taking a little break from psychedelics, which we really don't do all that often to begin with, but this path has been an interesting alternative for him.
00:00:30
Speaker
That seems to carry a common theme for experiencers of these States as well as psychedelics. And that is that you can do equally profound work through dreams and astral travel as you can through ingesting substances. We explore this idea in more with our thoughts on the subject and even some recommendations on how to approach this in your own life. But before we get to it, if you'd like to support the show, the easiest way to do that is to give us a five star rating on your platform of choice.
00:00:59
Speaker
as this helps us to get bigger and better guests and have bigger and better conversations.
Supporting the Podcast
00:01:05
Speaker
You can also visit our Patreon at patreon.com slash pursuit of infinity. And we're on Instagram at pursuit of infinity pod. So give us a follow there, keep up with all of our musings. And with that, I hope you enjoy today's show.
Beyond Dreaming by Gene Hart
00:01:45
Speaker
Joe, as part of your, as part of your work, I understand you've been getting into this book called Beyond Dreaming. Can you go into what that is? Yeah. So it's called Beyond Dreaming, a guide to awakening consciousness through the path of astral projection and out of body experiences. Discover dimensions beyond the physical. When was it written?
00:02:07
Speaker
It was written during the pandemic, so it's like a brand new book. This is by Gene Hart. It's his first book, and I've had brief contact with him online, so hopefully I can get him on as a guest.
Skepticism and Spiritual Practice
00:02:20
Speaker
We can interview him about this topic, but dude, you have to read this book. It's awesome.
00:02:27
Speaker
I must say like I could see a lot of people being skeptical about astral projection, thinking it might not be real, but it is. So it's something to take seriously and really try to think about, you know, adding to your spiritual work. I've never astral projected, but this book also, it goes deep into lucid dreaming, which is something I do have experience doing. And so I'm going to try to work towards this astral projection.
Meditation and Progressive States
00:02:55
Speaker
Yeah, as you say, work toward this astral projection. As I understand it, astral projection is like a step up from meditation and like maybe even a step above what's understood as lucid dreaming. So is there like a hierarchy here of like states? Kind of, but not really. But the way he puts it in the book is like.
00:03:18
Speaker
There's a general order to it. Like, you know, you start with meditation and then generally you could lead that to lucid dreaming. And the next level you'd go to would be astral projecting or out of body experiences where you literally leave your body in like your dream like states.
00:03:39
Speaker
But yeah, it's a good book because he doesn't tell you a step-by-step method like, oh, lay down, do this, do that, and then you'll astral project, or a quick method to get there. It's more about just awakening consciousness in general and how, as a result, you can have these experiences.
00:03:58
Speaker
And I think it's a phenomenal book and you need to read it for sure. And I recommend it to anybody listening, it's awesome. So in what ways does he get into the relationship between astral projection and just consciousness as a whole?
Enhancing Dream Awareness
00:04:11
Speaker
Well, see the thing is the more aware you become, the more spiritual work you do in your like physical waking life, it comes with you into your dreams and your sleep life. So like in the non-physical as he calls it. So like people, if you have a lot of like nightmares and reoccurring dreams,
00:04:34
Speaker
It's often linked to maybe a lower end level of consciousness. The more aware you become, the more vivid your dreams become, and then that leads to having control in your dreams. And then from there, you can kind of elevate to the astral level, which like the astral plane, as they call it, would be this kind of higher and lower levels of dimensions that you can travel to in non-physical states.
00:05:01
Speaker
So in terms of lucid dreaming, the only experience that I have with it is, and I think a lot of people can sort of relate, like they've had this happen to them before where you're in a dream and you realize that you're having a dream. But as I understand, there's a difference between understanding that you're in a dream where it's still kind of on rails and you're not in control. Like you're still being guided by the events of the dream, whatever they may be.
00:05:31
Speaker
But then there's a point in time where you can take control of the dream and that's where it becomes a lucid. So does the book go into any ways in which you can break free of that on rails feeling and use that as like a catapult to get into a lucid type of dream?
Achieving Lucidity in Dreams
00:05:48
Speaker
Um, yeah, kind of. Um, see, there's not like, it's not as rigid as like,
00:05:56
Speaker
non-lucid, lucid, astral, like it's kind of a flowing state. Like there's, there's a mixture. You could be in a dream and be like somewhat lucid, but again, it all links to your awareness. And one thing that you can do, what he goes into in the book is reality checks during your waking state and your physical state, like right now.
00:06:17
Speaker
in your life, you could do what they call like a reality check and do something like, for instance, a good one, he says is hold your nose and try to breathe. And if you can't breathe through your nose while holding it clearly in your physical state, you're waking. But if you can breathe through your nose with while you're covering it, then you're you're in a dream. So you can you explain that concept a little further, like just the concept of having
00:06:46
Speaker
a way of acknowledging like whether you're in a dream or not.
00:06:52
Speaker
So in your physical state, you want to develop a habit of doing these reality checks. So it's like a subconscious thing you do. So like I said, holding your nose and breathing, you want to do that multiple times throughout the day and genuinely look around and question, is this a dream? Even when it seems obvious, because while you're dreaming, it doesn't seem obvious. Everything is, it seems completely normal. You could be talking to a camel and it'll seem normal. Like the strangest things will seem normal in a dream. So.
00:07:22
Speaker
What you want to do is train your subconscious to do these reality checks and the more you do that You're more likely to do it in your dream state and then you'll be you'll be questioning your dreams more So you can come become lucid in the dream. It sounds like the Inception concept of like the top. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm
00:07:45
Speaker
I often hear as well, people will get into a lucid dream and they'll realize that they've become lucid and they get excited and sort of pop themselves out of it. Is that a problem that you've had
Maintaining Calm in Lucid States
00:07:58
Speaker
before? And is that something that you have to get past in order to ascend to like an astral projection type of level?
00:08:04
Speaker
Yeah, definitely. Like, my first few lucid dreams, I would be so excited that, you know, you'll wake up, you know, you're flying around your heart rate starts jolting, and then you move and you wake up. Um, that's why they say like meditation is key, you have to know how to calm yourself down and become aware of what's going on and be fully conscious of what's happening. And then you can keep yourself relaxed and explore deeper in each state. So like some people will even
00:08:32
Speaker
when they become lucid in a dream, you could actually sit down and meditate for a little bit, like meditate in your dream to calm yourself and then you can push yourself further. But yeah, it's crazy the stuff that, you know, the stories I've heard. I haven't astral projected yet, but this morning I started doing some of the techniques in the book and I got close, but I kind of, I bitched out a little bit. I got scared and started moving.
00:09:02
Speaker
But it seems like if you're not trying to do psychedelics, this is the next logical step that you can explore spiritually and work with something that seems out of this world but is completely natural to you and everybody can do it. Like in the book, he calls it a birthright. So every human being can do this and it just takes practice.
00:09:26
Speaker
thing is you're not going to get it in one go. You have to really work on yourself. You have to do the consciousness work. That's the thing. You have to really study this stuff and really implement it in every part of your life. And then it'll start, you'll notice it showing up in your life, just your general state of mind, how you look at things, how you behave. But thing
Techniques for Dream Recall
00:09:48
Speaker
is all that stuff transcends into your sleep. So like when you're dreaming,
00:09:54
Speaker
your waking life definitely it has everything to do with what happens when you sleep every night when you go to sleep you do have an out-of-body experience you're just not aware of it or you don't recall it so like another important thing he said is uh remembering your dreams so like when you wake up
00:10:12
Speaker
don't move your body. If you just had a dream, you want to stay completely still and recall your dream. As soon as you start moving, the dream starts to fade. So if you stay completely still after you wake up, you can easier remember the details of your dream. And then you want to have a piece of paper next to your bed or maybe just your phone to voice record and then write down your dream or record it. I've noticed multiple times you've said,
00:10:38
Speaker
that moving your body takes you out of it. Earlier you said,
00:10:44
Speaker
This morning when you, when you bitched out, you said it's because you moved and you just said now that, um, you have to stay completely still when you wake up. So I find it interesting that there is such a connection to the movement of your body and the inability to get to these, these places. It sort of reminds me of meditation in a way too.
00:11:09
Speaker
So yeah, how do you see those two things relating?
Transcending Body and Mind
00:11:12
Speaker
Well, yeah, because you have to get into like that deep meditative state. And you have to, you have to get to that, that state where you transcend your body and mind. And that's where this meditation comes in so deeply into the subject and just spiritual work in general. So like, throughout through meditation, you'll learn that you learn that you aren't
00:11:39
Speaker
your mind or your body. You're not either of those things. Through meditation, the whole point in my opinion of meditation is to discover what you truly are, like discover the true self. So what you end up discovering is that you aren't your mind and you're not your body. You are that which observes your mind and body. So you have to understand that all that stuff you're thinking,
00:12:06
Speaker
in your meditation that isn't you, you have to make a connection to that which is observing all of that. So when you get in these meditative states, you have to, you remain still, like you have to be completely still so you can really get there. Because if you're moving your body and your thoughts are racing, it's natural for you to cling on to them and then identify with them.
00:12:29
Speaker
So that's why when you're hitting these states of where you're ready to astral project or become lucid, you have to remain completely still so you can really identify with that true self. It's completely a spiritual practice. I mean a lot of people will have lucid dreams and some people even astral project
00:12:51
Speaker
like by accident but the thing is you could actually learn it and make it a method and a part of your life so like you think you sleep every night and for a lot of people that's wasted time but you have to understand how important your sleeping state is and the things you can do and explore while you while you sleep it's incredible I mean
00:13:10
Speaker
Like I said, I haven't astral projected yet. I almost did. But I've had plenty of lucid dreams. And this is even before I've started like going really deep into this work. So now I'm really ramping it up. And I'm going to try to do this stuff like every night and really try to do the work. Because before when I would have lucid dreams, I just kind of go crazy and do wild shit. Like, because you become basically a god, you could do whatever you like. You could fly around like
00:13:37
Speaker
But now I realize you can talk to the people in your dreams. Maybe you can get information. You can do some work in there. So that's what I'm going to try to do from now on. Like take it to a deeper, a deeper place. Yeah. Use it. Like use it and really explore the depths of it rather than in that surface level kind of stuff. Cause like at first you're going to be completely overwhelmed and that's why like you got to breathe and make sure you don't become too excited and you'll wake up. So.
00:14:04
Speaker
Yeah, you have to kind of remain calm or else, like, cause I mean, one of the first times I, uh, I became lucid, I would, I was running like so fast and jumping like miles and flying. And it feels so real. I mean, it is real. It's as real as this. It's just not physical. So like, there's no, you're not bound by all these laws that we have right now.
00:14:27
Speaker
So you can do this stuff and you experience it at a deep level. Flying is insane. You could feel it in your stomach when you're on a roller coaster or something, but you have ultimate control. What I'm going to try to do is go past that.
00:14:42
Speaker
and maybe try to explore deeper areas rather than just surface level pleasures. Like one thing you have to control is your sexual desires. Don't go grabbing tits and doing crazy shit like that, you know, because they say that that'll get you excited and kick you right out. Like if you start going crazy and trying to fulfill your sexual desires, which you probably will. But that's one thing I've noticed, you have to push past that desire and really do the work instead of just
00:15:11
Speaker
going after your regular material pleasures and impulses. You got to work past impulses. That's a huge thing.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. In order for you to go deeper, you'd have to get rid of that surface level veil type of stuff. Yeah. Well, before I was doing spiritual work, that was like the fun of it. I mean, it's just all your impulses can be fulfilled. But the thing is, it shortens the dream. Like you'll, you'll wake up sooner. Like if, but if that's why I think it's going to be good, I'd never tried it yet. But next time I have a lucid dream, I'm going to sit down and meditate.
00:15:45
Speaker
Some people say like, you know, you can go from lucid dream to the astral, the astral plane, like some people I've read, there's a lot of different methods. Like you could just fly into the air and with your will and intent, like, just break through to the astral. Some people I've heard that they'll create a portal, like a physical portal and jump through like, because when you're lucid, you can do all this crazy stuff. It's like everything is
00:16:12
Speaker
is in your control. So like I've heard different methods, but I want to try next time I become lucid in a dream. I want to sit down and really like just meditate and see what I can do. So that's what my next goal is.
00:16:28
Speaker
I mean, I'm telling you, dude, you really, you really, this is for everybody listening to this, especially if you're not looking to use psychedelics, if for some reason that's not in your wheelhouse, this is seems to be the next logical progression to put yourself further.
Consciousness Work over Rigid Methods
00:16:44
Speaker
Like if you see yourself at a standstill with your spiritual work, then this is something where you can go further and experience something maybe similar to a psychedelic, but even
00:16:57
Speaker
depending who you ask, more profound. Yeah, you said that it's a method. There are many methods to get to these places, but I think that the first stage of any of these methods seems to be meditation.
00:17:15
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's everything. It's just how it's the key to spiritual work, really. I mean, like I said, in this book, he actually stresses like a method of no method, basically. Because like you can you can find a lot of books on this stuff that I'll give you like very rigid scientific looks at this and like how to activate your brain in the right way. He doesn't really go
00:17:38
Speaker
in that direction which I like. It's perfect the way he puts it. It's really just about doing the consciousness work and becoming more aware in your everyday life in the physical world and then that comes with you. You bring it into your sleep at night. So your dreams will naturally start to become more vivid.
00:17:57
Speaker
And if you're doing the reality check checks and keeping a dream journal, all this stuff is going to play into just naturally when you fall asleep at night. Then on top of it, he does have like a meditation methods you could use before sleep in order to, you know, really push yourself to go to the astral. But he really stresses just the work that we've been talking about and just, you know, striving for truth. And if you do that in your everyday life, it will transcend into your dreams.
00:18:28
Speaker
I like that I'm not sure if he calls it this or if you're calling it this consciousness work. I like that phrasing because that can mean almost anything. Because when you say spiritual work, and I do say that, spiritual work, spiritual practice, there's a connotation that comes with it that I think turns some people off because it's associated with new age, with new age, with God, with
00:18:55
Speaker
fairy tale, you know, hippy dippy type shit. Yeah. It's unfortunate, but yeah. Yeah, exactly. I was, that's, it's very unfortunate because the word spiritual, I think is perfect for what it's actually describing, but because it's been like sort of hijacked, it's troubling sometimes for some people to hear. And, you know, it's funny. Consciousness is becoming that type of a word as well. You hear consciousness, you know, thrown around a lot.
00:19:23
Speaker
in spaces that it might not belong. But I do like the phrase consciousness work because it broadens the scope of what you can do to get you there.
00:19:34
Speaker
Yeah, that's what I like to use that term. I align that with truth, like consciousness. See, if you ask me, it's everything. We've talked about this a little bit. I wanted to actually touch on this is like, I was thinking about, we're talking about how consciousness isn't something that you have, it's just something that is. And it made me think about, like ownership in general, like ownership, what I was thinking is, we just assume that ownership is like a natural property of the universe.
00:20:04
Speaker
But what makes you think that? So if you think of the example of, let's say you buy a kid a toy. So you get this toy for the kid and you give it to the kid. And then after a certain amount of time, the kid plays with the toy, becomes attached to the toy, and it becomes his toy. The kid will say, oh, this is my toy. But that's an illusion. The toy, nothing actually changed about the toy. The toy is the same as it was when it was on the shelf.
00:20:31
Speaker
So there's no actual ownership as like a property of the universe. This is my body. That's all an illusion. So the same thing can be applied to consciousness. You're attached to it. So you say like, they have my consciousness. We all have our own separate consciousness. But really that ownership isn't a true property of the universe. That's a projection that we put on top of things.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah, it's like it's an emotional projection of the evolution of our survival minds because it seems to me that.
00:21:06
Speaker
The whole concept of ownership is, is not something that we had when we were in like an animal state. Like this sort of brings us back to the stone dape theory or the stone dape hypothesis. And at the time before, if you guys didn't listen to episode two, you should, it's pretty solid. It's all about the stone dape theory and the mysteries of Eleusis.
The Nature of Consciousness
00:21:32
Speaker
But if you track back to the human form at that time, it seems that there was less of an emphasis on ownership and like a dominator type of a culture and more of a nomadic symbiotic culture and.
00:21:50
Speaker
With the introduction of farming and becoming less nomadic. That's when we start to segregate our, our land. It's when we start to say, this is yours and that's mine. And that extrapolated all the way to 2022. And, you know, some kid gets a tablet, you know, and this is.
00:22:12
Speaker
his tablet where he has his apps. And if he logs into his account, he can view his related video. You know what I mean? And it's just, it keeps, it keeps ramping up this ownership concept. And it's so embedded in our everyday lives that we take it as something real and absolute when really it's not like, that's the thing with, you know, with meditation that helps you is like,
00:22:37
Speaker
You get to these states where you completely relax your mind and you disassociate with everything that you take as truth in your day-to-day life. But you have to start to realize that all this stuff is just projections of the ego mind. So you have to really become aware of that stuff. And that's the thing, to go back to this book, all this work
00:23:01
Speaker
When you go to sleep, the work doesn't end. You can do so much amazing stuff when you go to sleep and do the work in your dreams. I haven't astral projected yet, but I hear stories of people talking to past relatives or doing stuff that just seems so absolutely impossible. If you would have told me this a couple of years ago, I would have said it sounds ridiculous and impossible.
00:23:28
Speaker
But once you start to lucid dream and get to these meditative states, you can really understand that it is possible. He has a whole part in this book where he talks about, he doesn't spend too much time on it because he's assuming that most people that buy this book are already open to the possibility, but he does spend a little bit of time talking about suspending disbelief. You have to be extremely open-minded to do any of this work.
00:23:58
Speaker
because we're so indoctrinated into a physical, materialist, scientific mode of thinking. We think that everything has to have a method or a system. We're so indoctrinated into one mode of thinking, so meditation will help break you out of that.
00:24:14
Speaker
You got to really do the contemplation and introspection work and really kind of just pull apart everything that you take as a belief. So that's why like epistemology, I'm huge on epistemology, like doing like, you know, research epistemology and philosophy and those things to really start to open your mind. And then you can start to understand why you have your beliefs and that you can really understand that that's all they are is beliefs.
00:24:42
Speaker
Because yeah, our beliefs we take as truth. I mean, this happens for everybody. It's not like I'm on a high horse saying that. I'm saying I've been that way my whole life, but I'm now starting to realize that I've been wrong about a lot of stuff. And it's important to identify that like you're still there and I'm still there. Like we haven't gone anywhere. It's almost like we talked about, I think, I'm not sure if it was the last podcast we did, but we talked about, um,
00:25:11
Speaker
No, this was in the Ross Barger quiz where the question or the statement was something along the lines of like, does your past, um, or, or like, are you an amalgamation of your past choices? And yes, you are. Yes, we all are. And we are all still the people that we were, but.
00:25:32
Speaker
That's why nobody should ever ascend themselves to a high horse because we're all human and we all still are the things that we've always been. And we still, we still have all the neuroses that we've ever had. Um, Ram Dass talks about.
00:25:51
Speaker
Through his spiritual work, he said his, his neuroses, he had, he has not shed himself of a single one of them. And he's quite an erotic person as he would describe, but his neuroses used to be gigantic mountains.
00:26:09
Speaker
And they were, they ruled over his consciousness and his reality. And now they're just little tiny Hills that he can just step right over. Because when you're able to quiet the chatter, when you do that consciousness work, the spiritual work that we're talking about, you can quiet the chatter and you can choose to realign your priorities in a way where you're running.
00:26:33
Speaker
your reality and you're not letting your neuroses run you. Yeah, it's like saying like, Oh, I'm enlightened or I'm awakened. It's like saying I'm humble, you know, you know, some days, you know, like today that way, it was like 73 degrees or something in March, which is, you know, unfathomable and
00:26:54
Speaker
uh, Pennsylvania and I'm driving. I'm on the highway and it's sunny and I got this great music plan. The windows are down. The dog is in the back and I'm thinking, man, like I feel enlightened. You know what I mean? Like some days you just, you feel like God is in the passenger seat of your mind and you guys are just cruising, you know, and.
00:27:17
Speaker
Those are great days. That's a sweet spot. Yeah, it's a sweet spot. And in order to have days like that, you know, you got to do this work, but not all days are going to be like that. You're never going to be enlightened 100% of the time, but sometimes you will reach that like those levels. Yeah, it's infinite. So there's never you're never done. That's the beauty of it.
00:27:38
Speaker
And you're constantly in and out, in and out, in and out. Yeah, it's endless. But yeah, you want to, for me, one of the biggest moments for me when I realized the concept of the infinite now, the eternal now, that really changed me.
00:28:00
Speaker
to be able to really experience the present and realize that time isn't like your past, the future, those aren't real. It's like to really, and that's what meditation and honestly DMT got me to, to understand that the, the eternal now, like eternity is now it's not a later time.
Understanding the Eternal Now
00:28:19
Speaker
And then you could really, it frees you of all that shit in your brain, all the
00:28:24
Speaker
all the negative talk or whatever goes on in your head, all your problems. I forget who said this, it's famous, but they say that 99% of your suffering takes place in your head. A lot of times when you're suffering, if you ground yourself in reality and look around, everything's okay. It's all stuff that you're imagining. It's imagined suffering. So it's a freeing thought when you start to realize some of this stuff.
00:28:51
Speaker
It's just it's incredible like i never thought you know a couple years ago not even two years ago if you would have. You know tried to tell me this stuff i would laugh it off and said you're crazy this and that i would just start drinking some beers and just go along with my bullshit but it's really insane that you can do yourself up out of all that.
00:29:12
Speaker
All the bad places you put yourself in, it's usually just that. It's usually yourself putting yourself in those spots. So it's incredible to know that you're more than human, you're a lot more than your ego, and you can transcend all that and understand yourself on a deep level and have a connection with something divine. It's there for everybody.
00:29:36
Speaker
It's like you can understand yourself on a level that you can realize that you aren't just a biological life form. It's really hard to do this stuff though, because we're so deeply embedded in our belief systems and our ideologies. We're taught for 12 years. It's literally true. We're indoctrinated into science, into thinking in a scientific orderly way, which science is great, but the one thing it isn't is it's not truth.
00:30:04
Speaker
See, science works off of like a pragmatism, like pragmatic ideology. Like if something works, it's true. That's kind of what science says. But pragmatism isn't truth. That's the thing. Truth doesn't have to be provable. And if something works, doesn't make it true. Like religion works for some people. It works for a lot of people.
00:30:28
Speaker
Not to say like a religion is or isn't true, but it's just like a contrast like scientific people will point to religion and say like it's complete nonsense. But if you're working from a pragmatist, like a pragmatic frame of mind, saying if something works, it's true, then religion would be true. You know what I mean?
00:30:46
Speaker
It's really all about the nuance of language that you use. And it's just like the word God. The word truth doesn't mean one thing. And people get into arguments with each other because when they say or described what they feel truth is, they're not identifying with the other person.
00:31:06
Speaker
that their definitions match and they're both talking about the same thing because you can talk about truth in, in a form that two plus two equals four. And there are, you know, a certain number of neurons in the brain and like, you know, there's a certain number of planets in our, um, in our solar system. And there are things that you can rightfully identify as truth using science, but you're not going to.
00:31:33
Speaker
be able to quantify like the entire circle that is around all that is truth. Because truth has many different meanings. If you go and look at the famous conversations now between Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris, they're essentially arguing the entire time about what the definition of truth is. One is saying, this is the definition of truth. And one is saying, no, this is.
00:32:01
Speaker
I think that both of them could have done everyone a service in agreeing that both of the things that they were describing are different forms of truth. And Jordan Peterson was talking about more of a religious form of truth, where if you say, believe in a God that isn't physically provable or physically real, as the Sam Harris would say,
00:32:26
Speaker
But it still leads to positive progress in some way, and it will lead you to, we'll say, a better outcome than believing in something that is, we'll say, physically true.
00:32:40
Speaker
then that itself is, in a way, a truth because their end result is what the point of the truth is. You know what I'm saying? I know what you mean. Yeah. They just came out with another discussion a couple days ago. I think I haven't seen it yet.
00:32:57
Speaker
Yeah, he just released it. I, he, I heard him talking about it where he said that this one was way better because he blamed himself for the conversation going awry because he wanted to sort of prove he was right in saying that his version of truth was what truth is. But he said, I heard him talking about this on an interview he
Logic and Holistic Thinking
00:33:16
Speaker
did.
00:33:16
Speaker
It may have actually been with Kurt Jamongle where he said that instead this time he decided to just ask Sam questions and sort of flesh out where he was coming from so that they could have a more nuanced discussion as opposed to a debate. Yeah. Well, and that's the problem with debate and even just logic in general, like.
00:33:39
Speaker
When you realize that reality is infinity and there's infinite subsets of infinity. So like the thing is with logic or debate even is you can, it will go on forever. Like literally it will never end. Like there, that's why in a conversation like that with Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris, they went for like, what, three hours, some crazy amount of time. And they couldn't even agree on just the first basic point, which what is truth? I think it was like,
00:34:08
Speaker
Truth it transcends logic it's prior to logic logic is just a tool that we use that's another thing we're indoctrinated into prioritizing certain modes of thinking. Over others so like we're very left brain and we prioritize the physical way over the non physical like we're talking about lucid dreaming and.
00:34:31
Speaker
and out of body experiences, astral projection and stuff. Like in the book, Gene Hart, he talks about, he says that this should be taught to us like as children in schools, like we could be so more spiritually advanced if this stuff was taught to us. But instead, if you bring this up to, you know, 90% of the population, they won't even believe it's real. They won't think it's untrue. But yeah, this it's
00:34:56
Speaker
The logic has its limits, but at the same time, it's infinite. So you could logically get the truth or you could logically just spin yourself in circles too. You just got to understand that all this stuff that you put on such a high pedestal is often very limited.
00:35:14
Speaker
And if you tell somebody that the real truth and the answers to the universe and all these existential questions that we all ask ourselves, that the way that you get them isn't by science or asking other people. It's actually by searching within. People will hear that and say, that's impossible. I'm not smart enough to do that. But it's not about smart. We're just so left brained and intellectual.
00:35:34
Speaker
thinking in ways of methods and order and progress and production. We're so focused on those aspects that we don't even believe that truth can be found within. The religion has been bastardized and probably, I'd say, definitely mistranslated and misinterpreted. We look at all these things and
00:35:55
Speaker
we don't see any value in them. But the truth is, what people have to realize is that all these big answers are actually found within. You're never going to find them from other people. You can read about them in a book that'll guide you and point you in the right direction. But the truth is, you have to get there yourself. And you are fully 100% capable of knowing the unknown things. I mean, you are it. You're infinite just like everything around you. So you can really
00:36:24
Speaker
you can do a lot more than we were taught or a lot more than we believe that we're capable of. The problem might even come in the form of our inability to accept questions as answers to our questions because in our society and the way that we're taught, and this goes to the scientific point that you said before,
00:36:52
Speaker
It seems that unless we have a concrete answer for a question, then we consider the question irrelevant, which is why a lot of science is very specialized and like individualized. They compartmentalize science quite a bit. So it seems that not that science doesn't have a cohesive.
00:37:15
Speaker
connected theory for, or even idea of how all of these things intertwine with one another and. And what they mean to each other, because if there is anything that I've ever learned from just observing the world and you know, what you were talking about as like consciousness work and stuff, it's that everything is so intricately connected and it's all so perfect.
00:37:45
Speaker
that if we're going to try to identify what say an ant does as it forms its colony and the way that it revolves its life around its queen or the way the bees do the same thing or the way certain animals act in their mannerisms, if we're going to look at all of those things, then I feel like it's important to connect them to a why.
00:38:12
Speaker
And science doesn't ask why and it doesn't ask how do these things connect to each other? How do they make each other up? And what is their what's their relationship to one another? Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And one of the things I like that you said is that you brought up the fact how many like different sciences there are and see like,
00:38:34
Speaker
To do this spiritual work, this consciousness work, and understand the absolute truth in this, it requires a more holistic way of thinking. And the thing is, with science, it's going to infinitely divide into specific categories. There's neuroscience, biology, chemistry.
00:38:53
Speaker
a thousand years ago, all those didn't exist. It's going to continue infinitely dividing. It's the opposite of a holistic way of thinking. So if you ask a neurologist about the truth, he's going to be like, oh, well, that's philosophy. That's for you to do in your armchair. I just focus on this. And you can ask specialized scientists all these things.
00:39:15
Speaker
When it comes to the why they usually take it like it's not worth answering because they're so specified in one mode of science or one way of thinking there's no collective you know and they look at the why is maybe not pragmatic therefore not if it's not useful then it's not in their prerogative to answer.
00:39:36
Speaker
Another problem I think along the same lines is that is when if you would ask, say a neuroscientist, or even if you ask a spiritual person, like you ask a bunch of different people in a bunch of different specialties, what do you do to save the world? Somebody who takes mushrooms is going to say, everybody's got to take mushrooms. Somebody who works on neurosciences, everyone's got to have their neurons in, in this exact way. If somebody who's working in psychology would say, Oh, everyone has to go through
00:40:02
Speaker
know, behavioral cognitive psychology, and they have to identify their parts and do parts work and all, you know, all these things, because our tendency as individuals is when we have a hammer, every problem is a nail. Exactly. I'm sure you've heard that before, you know, but
00:40:18
Speaker
Here's another quote that you may have heard before. The map is not the territory, you know, these are, these are methods. And to me, the consciousness work is like the glue that fits all of these other things together. And they just like science needs the consciousness work to fulfill its destiny of describing reality. I think that the consciousness, the consciousness work also needs science.
00:40:45
Speaker
I think these things both work hand in hand together. And the quicker that people start to understand that what's important is not each individual thing, but how they relate and how you can make one emergent thing better than the sum of its two parts. That's, that's where the rubber meets the road.
00:41:07
Speaker
Yeah, you said the quote, the map is not the territory. There's another quote I heard, forget who said it, but it goes along the same lines. It says, I might be, this might not be it a hundred percent, but it was basically, the better the method, the bigger the problem. Or like, and the way you just said, like, it'd be like the better the map, the bigger the problem. Because basically what that's saying is like,
00:41:34
Speaker
If the map gets so good that it's so perfect, if it's a map of the woods, and the map is so good that you never actually have to go into the woods. So the same is happening with these methods. The map, it will never be the territory. So you see what I mean? The better the method, the bigger the problem. And see, that's a thing a lot of people don't realize, or maybe they just wholeheartedly disagree with. But it's very true.
00:42:03
Speaker
whatever symbol you place on top of something or a method that you use, it's never going to be the actual thing. It's just a human way to understand it. And a lot of times they're not even, you know, true. And as Ramdas said, a worthy method will self destruct. And in that way, you will not, you will not get caught in the method because the method is just a method. Again, the map is not the territory. If you're, if you're caught in the map,
00:42:31
Speaker
then you're never going to actually tread the terrain. You know, if you're looking at a map and you're deciding whether or not you want to go on this crazy hike and you're visually. Picturing yourself in, in this map while you're looking at it and you're like, man, this is, this is a pretty steep incline. You know, it says on the map that it's this high and it's this long and it seems pretty, I don't know. You know, you can, you can, you can get too attached to the map and to attach to the idea a hundred percent.
00:42:59
Speaker
Uh, this is, it's kind of along the lines of what we're talking about, but have you ever heard of, um, the, the concept of a whole lawn, a whole lawn, a whole lawn. Is that spelled like W H O L and hole or, uh, H O L O N. I never, so it's like kind of attached to holistic thinking. Um.
00:43:20
Speaker
But basically, this kind of goes along with what we were
Systems within Systems
00:43:23
Speaker
saying. If you ask a physical scientist, a materialist scientist, what is everything? What is reality? What is it made of? They'll say it's made of atoms or particles or planks or whatever. And then you ask the string theorist, what is it made of? They'll say strings. The mathematician might find a way to say it's made of numbers, whatever.
00:43:46
Speaker
So like a holistic, I forget, I see I didn't come prepared for this, but I forget who the guy is who came up with this, with this concept, but I'll read, I'm going to read the definition of a Holon for you quick. Okay. And what this is, is what I theorized, what like, what the, what is reality made of? Some people would say it's made of Holons.
00:44:12
Speaker
A Holon is an unidentifiable part of one or more systems and is at the same time a system formed by subordinate parts that integrates it as a whole.
00:44:24
Speaker
So what a Holon means, it's a perspective, like a perspectival way of looking at reality and what it's made of. So basically it's saying that reality is made of holes and parts. So like, and it's an infinite fractal kind of. So like, everything is made out of a hole that is comprised of parts. So like you could go down like a, like, for instance, a human is made out of organs.
00:44:52
Speaker
And then the organ is made out of a smaller system. It's basically just systems all the way down and all the way out, which I think it's a different way. It's not looking at it like a materialist would. You're looking at reality as it actually is built out of systems, inside systems, like parts inside of holes where the part is also a hole. And it goes fractally down.
00:45:14
Speaker
And you could look around your room, this is something I started doing, and start finding all the Holons in your room. You could look at a car or whatever if you're outside and say, OK, a car is made out of each part. And then you look at each part and see what they're made of. And it goes down forever. Same, it goes out forever. So that's just the concept of a Holon. I wasn't sure if you ever heard that, but I just wanted to bring it up because it's kind of interesting. It's a different way.
00:45:41
Speaker
It's not like looking for a material to grab. It's more perspectival of a way to look at what reality is made of. So instead of saying it's made of atoms, it's actually just saying like, it's made out of holes that are built of parts that the parts are also built of holes. It seems like an undeniable thing. Yeah, I mean, I'm kind of just look at reality. It is just a bunch of systems that complexify themselves and go out and in.
00:46:04
Speaker
Yeah. And there's a lot more to it. Like people can explain it way better than I do. And there's books about this stuff too. I didn't come prepared with the resources, but if people are interested in looking at like a new way to see what reality is made of, that's something you could look into. Maybe we'll talk about it deeper on another episode, but I thought it was just something I could bring up.
00:46:24
Speaker
Yeah, it's funny. I was just reading something about, um, like you see all the time, people talk about how the atoms make up at like all of reality. And it's like the smallest particle that we can identify. Um, and inside the atom, there is nothing. So does that mean that everything is made of nothing? And I don't know. I think that's a really cool like thought experiment. Uh, it brings me to like.
00:46:49
Speaker
It brings me to like the concept of the like the yang a little bit how you can't have everything without nothing. You can't have nothing without everything. So of course they're intertwined and dependent on one another. Well, that's the thing. It's if you like ask me that what everything is made of is consciousness.
00:47:08
Speaker
And what consciousness is, is nothing. But see, can you say a statement like everything is made of consciousness without knowing what consciousness actually is? Well, if you don't know what consciousness is, but what I'm saying is consciousness is nothing in the sense that a lot of people will hear that and say like, God, it doesn't mean anything, but
00:47:31
Speaker
When I say nothing, a lot of people will think that means non-existence, but it exists. So the way that most people think of nothing, they think that nothing is there. Like it's just the language, but it's a nothing that exists. It's not non-existence. So like I mentioned in a previous episode, I kind of didn't go into detail about it. Like you think of, um,
00:47:54
Speaker
like consciousness as infinite clay with no qualities. It can be formed and shaped infinite ways in everything. And that's what I would say everything is made of is consciousness. But at its core, it is actually nothing. It's the voidless void, the groundless ground. It's the same thing. That's why a good way to look at it is when you're dreaming,
00:48:23
Speaker
you do you think that when you're dreaming everything is made out of atoms or is it an imagination like what is it so you could bring that into life I think a good exercise that I like to do also speaking of dreaming again is look at your waking state as a dream as well because I think we should do a whole episode on this but
00:48:43
Speaker
I mean, essentially, in my opinion, and I think this is something you can realize for yourself and understand deeply about reality, is that all it is is just dreams, basically. We like to think that our dreams at night aren't real, but the ones that we're having right now in physical reality, it's real. But essentially, you could look at reality and the waking state as just another dream. I want to go back to
00:49:14
Speaker
lucid dreaming astral projection realm and and ask if in this book you you have about five pages left right so you you've pretty much scoured the whole book yeah i think i'm going to read it again too does does he go into how or if this relates to death yeah he does he definitely talks about it um
00:49:41
Speaker
See, that's the thing. I'm definitely gonna read this book again, but he says that they are definitely intertwined. And he even says that, like, that's what I was saying, I mentioned before about, like, in the astral plane talking to dead relatives and stuff. Like, essentially, like, parts of what he talks about is these other dimensions, like, deceased souls, like, exist in these dimensions, like, higher and lower ones.
00:50:09
Speaker
I don't I don't know too much to speak deeply on that but essentially yes he thinks that they're very intimately linked like all this stuff is linked of course you know but yeah he says like
The Reality of the Astral Realm
00:50:24
Speaker
A lot of people will say the Astral Realm, they'll do the same thing by discrediting it as a dream and that it's not real, quote unquote. But his perspective on it is that it is real. And he told one story where Astral projected. It was during the day, and he was up in his room, laying there or whatever. And his sister and friend were downstairs on the couch.
00:50:53
Speaker
and he had an out-of-body experience in his house where he came out of his body and walked down the stairs and saw his sister and her friend sitting on the couch and he made a point to look at the friend and she was eating something. I forget what it was exactly, but it had like a blue package or something. He wanted to verify if
00:51:11
Speaker
if it was real quote unquote so like when he came back into his body he got up in this physical body and walked downstairs looked downstairs and saw the friend and his sister sitting there just as he did in his out of body experience and the friend had the same snack same color package he saw the same thing that he saw from his out of body experience it's really interesting like what he goes into like the parallels like
00:51:36
Speaker
certain out of body experiences you would have like he would travel to like different dimensions and realms like and then others like he would come out of his body and be in his house and like walk around and it would just be kind of like a lucid dream but you're in the location that you actually get up and see your body laying there and everything is extremely vivid and like you can kind of interact with like
00:52:03
Speaker
Quote-unquote physical reality or whatever you want to call it. But yeah, so there's like some debate about if It's interesting like the astral plane. I guess you would say it's like it is It's just a different dimension like another layer of this reality so you can go to real places In the astral plane and it'll there'll be different there'll be stuff there It's interesting. He talks about
00:52:30
Speaker
He was living in an apartment and there was a stray cat that would come up to his window like all the time and like he had like a relationship with this stray cat and in physical reality and when he would astral project.
00:52:43
Speaker
he would he would see this cat and interact but the cat was a panther like it was like a big black panther and he would interact with it he also talks about actually communicating with animals and it's it's really interesting like the stuff he says but he uh he talks about how in the astral realm people and animals often have changes in their physical
00:53:06
Speaker
in their physical appearances. But he like he knew that cat the panther was the cat because like he could communicate with it and like feel the energy like you're also in the state same with lucid dreaming. You are insanely aware like your consciousness is literally raised like you can see things differently clearly and like supposedly in the actual you can communicate with all sorts of entities like different aliens I guess you could call them like different types of beings and
00:53:36
Speaker
you can communicate with certain animals, I guess he said he communicated with cats and birds, which is really interesting. He said it's kind of like what you might experience on psychedelics, like there's kind of a telepathy. Yeah, there's like a telepathy involved, like there's no language barrier. So you could like, really feel energies and like kind of communicate on a higher level. It's really interesting.
00:54:03
Speaker
Sounds very similar to some of the states of mind you can get in with psychedelics and with breath work. Right. And yeah, and that's a huge thing in this book too is breath work. Like it's a huge part of getting to the states too. Like while you're laying down, he mentions one exercise where like you before bed, you're laying on your back and you envision
00:54:26
Speaker
uh well first you gotta get your breath working so you breathe in into your belly like a deep breath hold it maybe i think for like three seconds and then release and like you know you can imagine like waves crashing on the on a beach and then you get into this you know rhythm where you're just observing the breath
00:54:45
Speaker
And then what he was saying what he likes to do is he envisions like a gold light at his toes and like you focus your awareness on your toes and and then focus your your awareness up on your legs and let it gradually move up your body with the light.
00:55:03
Speaker
So you're looking so you're just laying there and you're letting this light golden light roll over you and you're setting your awareness on every part of your body as it goes up and you're just letting observing your breath while doing this and then by the end you know the light is at the top of your head and then you let it kind of just encompass your whole body and then you have like this really open awareness and I got tried this this morning
00:55:29
Speaker
And I think I almost astral projected, but I've mentioned before, I kind of bitched out. I got scared and moved because it was very strange. Like a lot of people report feeling like a vibration feeling and like hearing noise. See, for me.
00:55:44
Speaker
One of the reasons I am a little bit afraid is because I'm afraid I'm going to fall into a state of sleep paralysis and see demons in my room and shit. He mentioned sleep paralysis briefly in the book. He said he didn't want to go deep into it because it has a lot of negative connotations.
00:56:05
Speaker
He said if you're in a state of sleep paralysis, you should be able to come out of body in that experience if you use sheer will and are aware and understand that you can have an out of body experience. A lot of people that have sleep paralysis are not very, they don't necessarily do consciousness work or they're unaware that they could even leave their body. So a lot of people with sleep paralysis are just in sheer terror and they're not aware that, I mean, according to Gene Hart, you can actually come out of your body in one of those experiences.
00:56:35
Speaker
So what you're saying is sleep paralysis is not necessarily like an end point for you. If you've had sleep paralysis before, it's something that you can sort of work through and work out of. And maybe even if you do enough consciousness work, you can, you won't end up there at all. I mean, I guess, like I said, he doesn't, he barely touched on it. And he said that that wasn't by accident.
00:56:58
Speaker
but i guess yeah like you can go past that i mean you can supposedly you can come out of body and he has like different methods that that you can try in the book i mean like i said earlier i really recommend people buy this book because it's really awesome it's not like a you know
00:57:18
Speaker
like a quick guide to astral projection and lucid dreams, it really breaks down what's actually happening and what you need to do in your life in order to make astral projection and lucid dreaming a part of your life and part of your consciousness work and
00:57:36
Speaker
Yeah, it's a great book. I recommend people read it, especially if they're interested in this and especially for people who don't want to do psychedelics. If for some reason that's not in your wheelhouse and you don't want to do them, this, in my opinion, is the next logical step in expanding your consciousness and really seeing what you're truly capable of. Because just from the limited experiences I have with lucid dreaming, it's mind-blowing. I mean, it changed my whole perspective on life. Even before I was doing consciousness work, it made me realize
00:58:06
Speaker
I mean, it really made me start asking the questions like what is
Lucid Dreaming and Reality Perception
00:58:11
Speaker
reality? Like what was that that I was just doing where I was like in this place that's completely real and I had unlimited power and higher awareness. Like when it first happened to me, I was like 18. That was like my first time I think or maybe 19 and I wasn't doing any spiritual work at all.
00:58:27
Speaker
It just happened to happen one night and it was, it was like a life-changing event for me because it really started to make me question things a little more deeper and realize that there's more to reality than just the physicalist, materialist paradigm that we're kind of indoctrinated into. I was like, well, that can't happen. That's like, it shouldn't have been possible. Like.
00:58:50
Speaker
I've had lucid dreams where I literally have superpowers. Like, it's insane that you could have incredible superpowers. And it's as real as what we're talking like back and forth right now. It's just things that shouldn't be possible. But it's completely real. And now I'm discovering that you can really do some serious work in these states. So now that's that's my next step. Because I mean, I love psychedelics. But we talked about this, we're taking a little break from psychedelics for a moment until they call us again.
00:59:19
Speaker
And then we'll go back, but in the meantime, this is, this is my priority right now. Yeah. The, the call has to be there. And you know, with psychedelics, you know, a lot of times less is more. And, uh, I remember when I first started getting into the theory of psychedelics, I heard Terrence McKenna, like just glorify these things as like.
00:59:44
Speaker
you know, they're everything, they can change the world, they're your doorway to God, all this stuff. But then he said, if I do it three or four times a year, I feel like I'm hitting it hard. And I was like, what? You know, and even when I first started, there was there were times where it was like once a week for a few weeks, you know, and
01:00:08
Speaker
Now, after all, after all of that, I understand what he meant because less is more. And the more time you have in between experiences to integrate.
01:00:23
Speaker
That's everything it's more important than the experience itself. A lot of times, because, you know, we always, whether we're astral projecting or whether we're doing psychedelics or meditating or anything like that, that produces a non-ordinary state.
Integrating Insights into Daily Life
01:00:41
Speaker
Ultimately, we always come back here. So if whatever non-ordinary state you're traveling to doesn't inform.
01:00:52
Speaker
The default state, which is this, then what's the point, you know, and at a certain point in time, you can, again, you can get stuck in the map or stuck in the method. And there were times where I felt I was stuck in the method, the method of psychedelics. And it's very important to understand that there are so many methods to getting to this place. You know, when people ask me.
01:01:19
Speaker
If I would recommend doing psychedelics, I never suggested I would, I will always say to somebody who asks me. Like, do you recommend doing psychedelics? Like, should I do them? Should I do mushrooms? Which one should I do? I always say.
01:01:33
Speaker
I do not recommend you do any psychedelics. What I do recommend you do is do as much research as possible into psychedelics, because what that will do is it'll open your mind up to what's possible out there in terms of all methods. And if.
01:01:50
Speaker
After you do all the research, you realize, yes, this is something that I want to do. I want to do psychedelics. Then that is your choice. But you can find within the research of psychedelics, you can find an infinite amount of methods, whether it be yoga and by yoga, I do not mean stretching your body around in certain positions in, you know, sunny California. And, you know, paying your instructors $90 a session. What I mean by yoga is.
01:02:19
Speaker
real yoga, like real yoga is way different and we should have an episode on this too, but whether it be yoga, whether it be meditation, psychedelics, you can find any number of methods by doing the research on them. And that way you can find your path. Cause I do think that it's super important to, uh, to at least start down this path at some point in your life. You know, it just seems to be the way to go.
01:02:44
Speaker
Yeah. It's tough, though, because most people listening and most just most people in general are so steeped. And like I keep saying the physical materialist paradigm. So reading about psychedelics, a lot of people, it won't hit them, you know, the reality of it. I mean, think about it. Think about all the research you did. I mean, I agree with everything you just said. And I think that's absolutely true. But I'm just trying to look at it like the truth of it. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody
01:03:11
Speaker
who has the mindset that maybe we used to have and, you know, like thinking back to yourself, like when you did, you were doing the research, you're very open-minded, so that was good, but none of it compared to that when you actually tried it. When you did it, that really, you know, blew the doors off and really made you understand what, how much we don't know.
01:03:32
Speaker
Now, I agree with what you said, but the only thing that I will do is I'll say, I don't think it's right to put a hierarchy in place where I'm better than I was then. Or like somebody who's doing psychedelics is better or is in a better place than somebody who isn't. To me, it's like, it's all, all of these paths are like whatever portion of the path you're on is perfect. And it's, it's exactly where you belong. You have to, you have to start from where you're at and
01:04:03
Speaker
There are people out there who are so much farther down this path. Then I can fathom like the same exact path that I find myself on. There are people down in sections of that path that I don't even know exist. And that's okay. I'm, I'm starting where I'm at and I am where I'm at and everybody is, is on their path.
01:04:27
Speaker
Well, I just want to clarify. I wasn't saying that anything is better. I'm not placing a hierarchy on it. I'm just saying that you did the research, but that didn't compare. Like I said, you don't have to do psychedelics to do this. You could do lucid dreaming, astral projection, meditation, yoga, all this stuff. But my point is, a lot of people maybe just are going to be harder to convince. But my point was, after you did psychedelics, there's no denying.
01:04:57
Speaker
Not that it made anything better, but it made you – like you were forced to realize the non-physical aspect of reality or what – maybe what we're capable of.
01:05:12
Speaker
Like I agree with what you said, I wouldn't recommend just diving into psychedelics, but definitely research them, but you can achieve. See, and this is the thing I was, uh, I got to engulfed in kind of the psychedelics and I kind of was in disbelief of.
01:05:27
Speaker
the fact that you can have these crazy experiences without it. I was like, oh, you need psychedelics to understand. That's how I felt for a short period of time. But the fact is, you, just as you are, are purely capable of having these divine experiences. And you have to be, because it is you. You are the universe. You're part of it.
01:05:49
Speaker
There's no separation there. So you have to have the capabilities. And it's for every, even if you doubt yourself, that that's just your ego mind, you know, it's your ego mind just telling you lies, basically. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, of course, when you start to, to research a method, because even when you look at a method, the map of the method is not the territory of the method. So you do have to actually participate in the method, like,
01:06:18
Speaker
When I was a big, giant boxing fan. Okay. There's a very big difference between understanding the theory of boxing and understanding the science of it and loving it and having a passion for it. But then when you do it.
01:06:34
Speaker
then you understand really what it's about, what it means to be across from somebody who's trying to really hurt you. And you have to defend yourself and hurt them too. That's, it's a different, very different thing to, to understand that. And when I, when I got into the ring for the first time, that was very apparent, even getting into, to a ring, to spar with somebody, you know, with somebody that you've been training with. And then you see that person in the ring and they got this look in their eyes, like they're going to kill you. And you're like, Oh shit, this is, this is real now.
01:07:04
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That's a yeah, it's a great comparison and I think one of the reasons why it's a great comparison like is the fear aspect like with psychedelics with Just consciousness work even with like astral projecting out-of-body experiences lucid dreaming that stuff
01:07:20
Speaker
Fear is one of the biggest obstacles you're going to have to overcome. Like you really have to throw yourself into the jungle here because your ego is going to, it's playing tricks on you. It's going to push you away, but you really have to just take a leap of faith really and have an open mind and face the fear head on. And that's where you get the real juice. That's where you get the, the good stuff. You know, when, when like, forget who was saying, I think it was, might've been Duncan Trussell. I don't know, but he was talking about,
01:07:50
Speaker
one of his experiences on psychedelics and he's seen a UFO and it wanted to take him and he was too scared so he didn't go and like looking back he's like oh my fear you know I should have just went in like I never had that experience afterward like so the point is to face the fear and and just go with it you know don't fight it so you could that's why I thought it's kind of a good comparison with boxing because it's the same thing it's a it's a lot of
01:08:19
Speaker
overcoming fear. Surrender is a big aspect of all things that are humbling and that are fulfilling in life. Yeah. Yeah, that's key.
01:08:32
Speaker
Hopefully I'm gonna try to get a hold of Gene Hart and get him on here and he could really tell you guys about astral projection. Me, I just went through this book. I'm still five pages left. I'm gonna reread it honestly because it was that good. I recommend it to everybody. It's Gene Hart Beyond Dreaming, a guide to awakening consciousness through the path of astral projection and out-of-body experiences.
01:08:54
Speaker
So yeah definitely read that book guys and this is something I recommend everybody do especially those who aren't aren't doing psychedelics because you can have insane life-changing experiences just as you are you don't need any chemical you don't need anything else just yourself.