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Joe Justice from Wahoo Fitness
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Everything You Need to Know About Treadmill Running – with Joe Justice from Wahoo Fitness
Links:In this episode of the UKRunChat podcast, we’re joined by Joe Justice, Senior Product Manager for Running at Wahoo Fitness. Joe combines over 20 years of experience as a runner and coach with deep expertise in product strategy to create innovative tools for runners, including Wahoo’s latest smart treadmill technology.
We cover everything runners want to know about treadmill running, including:
What makes a treadmill smart
How to get the most out of your workouts on a treadmill
How far is too far on a treadmill?
How pacing differs indoors
Using treadmill data to improve performance
How treadmill training fits into marathon or ultra prep
What to look for when buying a treadmill
Tips to stay motivated and common mistakes to avoid, plus
Do we really need the treadmill on that 1% incline?
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to UK Run Chat Podcast
00:00:00
UKRunChat
Hello, welcome to this episode of the UK Run Chat Podcast.
Misconceptions of Treadmill Running
00:00:05
UKRunChat
I'm your host, Michelle, and today we're talking treadmill running, which is an often misunderstood, but incredibly useful training tool for runners of all levels.
Guest Introduction: Joe Justice from Wahoo
00:00:15
UKRunChat
Joining me today is Joe Justice from Wahoo, which is a leading brand in smart fitness technology.
Q&A: Optimizing Treadmill Training
00:00:22
UKRunChat
So Joe's here to help us understand really everything that runners want to know about treadmills. We're sure you've got lots of questions.
00:00:30
UKRunChat
So whether you're new to treadmill running or looking to optimize your training, hopefully we can answer some of those for you in this episode. So let's get
Joe's Role at Wahoo and Running Background
00:00:38
UKRunChat
started. Welcome, Jo. Thank you for coming on to this episode today. How are you?
00:00:43
Joe Justice
I'm doing wonderfully. Thanks so much for having me.
00:00:45
UKRunChat
yeah so you're joining us from Atlanta, aren't you?
00:00:48
Joe Justice
That's correct. Yeah, I'm here at the the global headquarters for Wahoo.
00:00:51
UKRunChat
Yeah, fantastic. Thank you so much. So can you start by telling us a little bit about your role at Wahoo and your kind of experience with treadmills and what you do there?
00:01:00
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. So so I've been a runner myself for for over 20 years and a lifelong passionate passionate runner. And my role here at Wahoo is that i lead the product management group for ah for the running category here. So ah you know it's ah it's a young and very fast-growing category for us. So there's a lot of lot of excitement.
Evolution of Treadmill Technology
00:01:21
UKRunChat
Yeah, we we we get a lot through kind of about what what the next big thing is in treadmills. So really excited to kind of learn a bit about smart treadmills. um So, I mean, how has technology kind of evolved over the years? I've got a very old, I must admit, dusty treadmill in my garage that I don't really use that much.
00:01:40
UKRunChat
and But things have come on a lot recently, haven't they? What's what's new in the world of treadmills?
00:01:45
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. So so really, there there hasn't been a ton of innovation in the treadmill space in the last 10, 20 years beyond you know some slatted treadmill belts and how big of a screen can we put on on the treadmill?
00:01:58
Joe Justice
And that's really been all the innovation for ah for the bulk of the most recent years here. It's really been focused on the content that you consume on the treadmill classes and workouts and that kind of thing.
00:02:09
Joe Justice
and and And we really took a different approach, focusing a bit more on the hardware. And so we're we're really pioneering the the tip of the spear with that treadmill innovation in the industry here. ah So we've got what what's called the time of flight sensor, ah measuring your positioning on the treadmill, and that gives us
Smart Treadmill Connectivity and Training Insights
00:02:25
Joe Justice
all kinds of data. So we can gather additional running insights and running metrics like vertical oscillation and ah ground contact time and things like that, but it also lets us provide dynamic pacing control. so ah So you can actually do an entire interval workout with sprinting and walking without touching a button, ah which is super cool.
00:02:44
Joe Justice
and And, you know, in this kind of smart treadmill space, it's it's really focused on the connectivity and how can we how can we partner with third-party apps and and utilize the Wahoo app itself as well to simulate running routes and ah get you prepared for that next race in an even more insightful way.
00:03:01
UKRunChat
Yeah, wow, my head's just exploded hearing all that that a treadmill could do. That's amazing. So yeah, we'll definitely get down into that as we talk through it all. So how did you personally get into running? Let's just start with your story because are you a big treadmill runner yourself or, you know, i that I'll start for you.
00:03:19
Joe Justice
Yeah, historically, no. and But but i've I've quickly fallen in love with with treadmills, getting the opportunity to to help build the the you know a treadmill that we believe that runners really want.
00:03:30
Joe Justice
and so So going back to the beginning, actually kind of got tricked into into running. and yeah i was ah I was a baseball player as ah as a young kid, and but I just didn't grow.
00:03:40
Joe Justice
So I got to got to high school, 13, 14, 15, and everybody just started getting bigger and taller, and I didn't. And a friend of mine was like, oh, hey, we got to do something, and ah let's join the track team to try and get in shape.
00:03:53
Joe Justice
And he promptly bailed, but I already had bought the the jersey and
Using Treadmills for Running Efficiency
00:03:58
Joe Justice
everything. It was like, I guess I'm running a track now, um and just immediately fell in love with it.
00:04:00
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:04:02
Joe Justice
and and And that kicked off a a wonderfully fun running career, running in high school and college, and and Being a sponsored runner for a little while, and and now I'm just a you know proper weekend warrior having fun.
00:04:13
Joe Justice
ah but But I always avoided treadmills. And it just wasn't fun. It wasn't engaging. It didn't feel real. and And that's what really what what we set out to build was was a treadmill built for runners by runners ah that that you would want to run on.
00:04:28
UKRunChat
Yeah, because this is the thing I think when you're, I mean, for example, I am a very much a trail runner. I love going out in the hills and I know I need to do my workouts to get a bit faster and to improve my fitness.
00:04:40
Joe Justice
So
00:04:42
UKRunChat
and But the thought of doing them on a treadmill just doesn't fill me with any kind of motivation or joy. So yeah, it'd be interesting to hear your tips for that, for kind of getting the most out of treadmill running and how they can really help us.
00:04:57
UKRunChat
um So can we talk first about, because you you mentioned a lot there about um kind of what treadmills can do for us nowadays. So what kind of, can you talk us through those data features that you mentioned earlier that runners can expect on a ah smarter treadmill?
00:05:17
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:05:18
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. so So with Kicker Run, for example, ah we you know our are running dynamics and running metrics that we really focus on, yeah have your classic pace and distance and and that kind of thing.
00:05:29
Joe Justice
And that's that's one thing I'd love to call out is you know a lot of times treadmills just are in KPH or MPH and nobody no runners talk like that.
00:05:35
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:05:37
Joe Justice
So ours, are you know we we set it up in pace. so So you look at the display and it's minutes per mile or minutes per kilometer, whichever you choose. And And then and then oh you don't have to do that crazy calculation in the back of your head of like, well, how fast is 12 kph?
Real-time Insights and Simulating Outdoor Runs
00:05:51
Joe Justice
And how many minutes per kilometers that that ah translate to?
00:05:55
Joe Justice
and but But so we have you know those typical basics. and And then we add vertical oscillation, which is basically how much up-down bounce you have in your and your step. And it's ah an indicator of running efficiency.
00:06:08
Joe Justice
and We also gather cadence, ah so your steps per minute. and And then and then we actually have ground contact time as well. So how how long is that, you know, each foot staying in contact with the ground?
00:06:18
Joe Justice
And again, all these kind of ad add among among themselves into this kind of running efficiency factor. So, you know, over the over the you know duration of a long run, for example, if your ground contact time starts running,
00:06:32
Joe Justice
trickling up and your cadence starts slowing down, you're beginning to lose some efficiency and you know the legs start lagging behind the body, flexors start hurting. And you know these are all insights that that we ah provide real time from ah directly from the treadmill and and can really teach you about how you run as a runner but also how you break down as a runner over the course of and a workout or a long run or that kind of thing so um so it's a great way to to provide some uh additional insight beyond just the typical treadmill and um and we've really focused on providing a very responsive treadmill that that feels as real as possible uh because that's one of the detractions of running uh running indoors you know as you mentioned you're
00:07:14
Joe Justice
yeah a big time trail runner. I love running on the trails myself. It's like the the further away from a road I can get, the the the more the more I love it. and And that's where we've incorporated things like route simulation.
00:07:25
Joe Justice
So if it's dark or terrible weather, or you know you don't feel safe outside, whatever that may be, and you can actually upload your favorite GPX file or fit file from Strava or your GPS watch, and the treadmill will simulate that route for you. So and so you know last week, it was crazy rainy here. And In Atlanta, tons of storms and wasn't able to get outside for a run.
00:07:47
Joe Justice
But I just uploaded the normal park that's around the corner here and and simulated it on the treadmill. So I still got to do the run that I wanted to do It just happened to be inside.
Running Efficiency Metrics and Training
00:07:55
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:07:55
UKRunChat
Yeah, now that's some incredible technology I could get on board with that. Definitely. That sounds great. um So you mentioned vertical oscillation there. Now, that's a term I've not really heard before. So why why is that important? What's kind of the the optimum? Is there an optimum we should be aiming for or are we all, we're obviously all different, aren't we?
00:08:13
Joe Justice
Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's very runner specific. So, so, you know, I won't, won't say a particular optimal range or anything like that, but, and but, but by, you know, per, per runner, there's going to be some optimization there, but, but really what that's measuring is your, your, how much bounce you have in your, in your stride. So, and so if you think about running across the surface, you are propelling yourself forward and that takes energy and,
00:08:40
Joe Justice
And ah and running running is not actually that efficient. It's very metabolically inefficient, but but we're trying to propel ourselves forward. But if we're expending too much energy propelling ourself upward, that becomes wasted energy.
00:08:52
Joe Justice
and you know And there's been some interesting studies over time where if you if your vertical oscillation is really high, you may end up running, ah effectively running an extra half mile ah during the course of a race or something like that, because you've spent, you know, two, three inches bouncing directly upwards more than you needed to, instead of using that energy to pull yourself forward.
00:09:02
UKRunChat
Wow.
00:09:12
Joe Justice
So ah from an energy expenditure standpoint and efficiency standpoint, it's good to get that into a kind of an optimal zone.
00:09:19
UKRunChat
Yeah. And I guess it's useful to see how that kind of, like you mentioned, how it might change through the duration of a run as we start to fatigue as well. So what can we actually do with that data?
00:09:31
UKRunChat
then?
00:09:31
UKRunChat
How can we then affect changes? can Can the treadmill help us do that?
00:09:31
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:09:36
Joe Justice
um Yeah. So so the treadmill is gathering that data and broadcasting that to you and so you can work with your coach or or analyze that data yourself. And then we're continuing to to evolve.
00:09:48
Joe Justice
That's the beauty of of of smart treadmills is we're continuing to add additional insights and utilize our our sports science group here and and the amazing brains that we have that are much bigger than mine to to provide more actionable insights. So so those are features that that you'll see coming in the in the near future here ah to to make that more granular and more and more focused.
00:10:10
Joe Justice
but But it's also stuff for, so i'm I'm also a running coach myself. and So it's wonderful that I can get that kind of data for my athletes that that have a kicker run and I can see their
00:10:17
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:10:20
Joe Justice
ah their vertical oscillation, for example, marry that up against ground contact time and cadence and and see how efficient they are during the course of a run, but also see how efficient they are and different
Simplifying Treadmill Designs and User Experience
00:10:32
Joe Justice
paces.
00:10:32
Joe Justice
so So, you know, for example, I may be really efficient at six minutes per kilometer, but as soon as I get to four minutes per kilometer, I get a little sloppy. You know, I start bouncing up and down too much. know, my cadence gets weird, is not smooth.
00:10:46
Joe Justice
and And that's an opportunity for for myself as a coach to provide additional insight and say, right, let's let's focus on more fast intervals to improve your comfort level and improve your efficiency. And let's look at some some stride analysis and and that kind of thing too ah to really smooth you out and make you more efficient and more comfortable at these faster paces.
00:11:07
Joe Justice
and And, you know, for the most part, that's what we all want to do is run a little bit faster and get to that finish line a little bit more quickly. So we want to provide that data or for consumption for for anyone.
00:11:17
UKRunChat
Yeah, but that's that's really fascinating. Yeah. I mean, what do you think is, because we we do get a lot of data nowadays, don't we? it's It's constantly, you know, just in our eyeballs all the time.
00:11:28
UKRunChat
What are the kind of, what are the key pieces of data you think runners should focus on if they're feeling a little bit overwhelmed? What's really important as a runner?
00:11:38
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. so So one thing that we did with Kicker Run that that I think is is pretty unique is, you know, most most treadmills have a big screen on them and tons of buttons and and craziness all over there, all over it. And we've really completely simplified. So and so it's ah it's a bring your own device type of setup so you can connect a TV, Apple TV, a laptop.
00:11:59
Joe Justice
ah yeah tablet, whatever that may be, a phone. and but But you don't have to. So the the treadmill itself only displays current incline and current pace, ah just so there's no additional distraction.
00:12:12
Joe Justice
And you know most of us typically record on another device. and So you can actually connect your GPS watch directly to the treadmill. And the treadmill broadcasts kind of like a foot pod sensor would.
00:12:22
Joe Justice
so So you're going to get real-time, accurate indoor running data that isn't one of these not very accurate indoor running algorithms. So it's like, ah maybe I'm running 730, maybe I'm running 430, watch isn't really sure.
00:12:34
UKRunChat
had
00:12:35
Joe Justice
and so it's just going to get that data directly from the treadmill. And and and that's what that's one of the things that I love to do is I call it a screen-free run. And I just connect my watch directly to the treadmill. I don't connect it to a display of any kind.
00:12:47
Joe Justice
I have my pace, I have my incline, and my watch is gathering all my data. So I'll have that for for my athlete profile and and send that off to you know Strava if I want to do the social side of things or you know analyze it within the Wahoo app for for the data later.
00:13:02
Joe Justice
But I don't have to see all that data right there in my face. and And sometimes running inside can, the the time seems to slow down sometimes ah because it's not quite as
Innovative Treadmill Features: Run-Free Mode
00:13:11
Joe Justice
engaging.
00:13:11
UKRunChat
Yeah, it does.
00:13:11
Joe Justice
You're not looking at, you know, on the, on the trail, you know, you're trying to avoid rocks and roots and and foot placement is your focus. ah But, but sometimes if you've got, you know, the, number of miles or kilometers that you've been running or the total duration staring you in the face the whole time, those seconds start ticking by really slow.
00:13:27
Joe Justice
So we just remove that from the display. if you want to If you want to add it to your own display, you can. ah But we've really tried to simplify that. That way you can just focus on the joy of running.
00:13:36
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that's brilliant. You really have thought of everything because that is one of the things that I i dislike about treadmill running. It does. Time does slow down. I don't know how it does it.
00:13:45
Joe Justice
That's it. It defies all logic. Yeah.
00:13:48
UKRunChat
Yeah. You mentioned earlier that your treadmill can kind of just do things without buttons. That sounds pretty impressive. How does that work?
00:13:55
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. So, so we created something called run free mode and, and it's a, it's an optional mode on the treadmill. So you can, you can control our treadmill just like a, just like a, you know, we'll call it a normal treadmill with, with manual pace adjustments. And we've got these big paddles on the, on the treadmill that, that,
00:14:12
Joe Justice
bring those controls closer to the runner. and so you're not reaching way out ahead of you to to adjust pace and clicking some tiny button a bunch of times. and We've just got these big paddles that you can just hit in stride, which is fantastic.
00:14:23
Joe Justice
um But but once you're faster than 25 minutes, or excuse me, 12 minutes per kilometer, ah you can engage what's called run-free mode. And what we have is a time-of-flight sensor, and which is which is kind of like, I mean, it's a sensor used in like production automation, autonomous vehicles use them sometimes, ah but it's really measuring um a an object in space is really what it's used for. So we have one of those mounted in the front of the treadmill.
00:14:50
Joe Justice
It's one of the things that we use for vertical oscillation measurement, but it's measuring your distance from the front of the treadmill at all times. So when when you engage that mode, it be it's basically sets a center point for you.
00:15:03
Joe Justice
And so so we always encourage people to make sure you're in a comfortable spot on the treadmill. So if you like to run a little closer to the front or a little closer to the rear, make sure you you're in that spot when you press that button. ah But then if you move forward, it speeds up.
00:15:15
Joe Justice
If you move backwards, it slows down. ah So you you literally just speed up and the treadmill speeds up and you slow down and the treadmill slows down. ah So you can take it all the way up to 230 per kilometer if you want to get yeah Get some really quick intervals going, but you can also slow slow it all the way down to a walk.
00:15:31
Joe Justice
and So that's what makes it really cool and dynamic. and And as you run in that mode, you'll realize that your pace fluctuates a little bit here and there. So you're not running 5.30 pace exactly.
00:15:43
Joe Justice
It's 5.28, 5.32, 5.30, 5.27. five thirty two five thirty five twenty seven And and that that's part of the natural flow of running and and what we feel outside. So if you look at your pace and stare at your watch when you're running outside,
00:15:56
Joe Justice
Um, not recommended don't trip and fall, but, but you'll see that pace ebb and flow. And we wanted to help create that indoors and get that, that real run feel. Uh, and this is, you know, a completely unique way to do that.
00:16:09
Joe Justice
Uh, we also use that sensor for, for some safety components and stuff like that too, which is ah always a nice bonus. Uh, but it really improves the the running experience and you can just stare ahead, look out the window, whatever, whatever it may be that you want to do.
00:16:21
Joe Justice
And the treadmill adapts to you rather than controlling you.
Treadmills for Structured and Hill Workouts
00:16:25
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that sounds brilliant because it's it I've always found it especially hard to kind of to know what speed to set the treadmill at, to do kind of things like sprint interval training. If I'm doing that inside, it can be difficult, can't it?
00:16:37
Joe Justice
I sure can.
00:16:38
UKRunChat
Yeah, so that sounds that sounds brilliant. So can we kind of get into some specific types of treadmill workouts now? Do you mind talking us through some?
00:16:46
Joe Justice
Sir?
00:16:47
UKRunChat
um So of other workouts that are particularly well suited to treadmill running, would you say, compared to outdoors?
00:16:56
Joe Justice
um yeah, I mean, I think, you know, a couple of things, it depends on the runner and what you're training for. and so there's always, there's always that caveat. It's like a, uh, like ah like a doctor saying, this isn't medical advice kind of thing.
00:17:06
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:17:06
Joe Justice
Um, but, but there's always, ah you know, there's always some challenges with, with doing interval workouts, for example. So, so I, you know, live in Atlanta and tons of stoplights and, uh, you know, on traffic and that kind of thing.
00:17:19
Joe Justice
So, I don't always get to do my interval training on ah on a proper track. So if I have to do it on the sidewalk, I usually have to make some sacrifices, stop at a red light, stop at a stop sign, ah wait for traffic, whatever that may be dodge a whatever may happen over the course of a run.
00:17:33
UKRunChat
and yeah I did see of that yesterday. Yeah.
00:17:36
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:17:36
UKRunChat
ah Yeah. yeah
00:17:38
Joe Justice
ah But if I really want if i had really had like a goal quality workout that I want to get in that is you know interval focused, then utilizing a treadmill for that can be really good because it can hold you at a constant pace or or run free, give you full control of that pace.
00:17:54
Joe Justice
and and And what we can do with Kicker Run is you can actually upload structured workouts. So we have we have some structured workouts built into the Wahoo app, but you can also connect your training peaks or final surge account and whatever workouts that you have in there from...
00:18:07
Joe Justice
your your own building or from your coach will automatically upload and the treadmill will walk you through that workout. So you don't have to remember it's like, Oh, am I i'm doing an 800 or 1200 on this next one?
00:18:17
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:18:17
Joe Justice
The treadmill just does it for you and you just click the paddle and it'll take you to that next pace. and So it can help walk you through that workout. So you focus on the running, not remembering what interval you're on, what pace you're supposed to run.
00:18:30
Joe Justice
you know, am I running too so too fast in the recovery period? Am I running too slow and in the interval period? And so it can really be a huge benefit to just let you focus on the running and focus on the quality of the running and in these structured interval type workouts.
00:18:46
Joe Justice
um So that's one. Another one is hill work. So you know it's it's pretty rolling terrain here in Atlanta for myself, but I love doing trail races out west, for example.
00:18:49
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:18:55
Joe Justice
So I don't have access to big, long hills that that I can actually train on. so So I do a lot of power hiking and long hill repeats on the treadmill.
00:19:07
Joe Justice
And it's a ah really cool way to elicit that same response that you might get and ah in a mountain run or a big time trail race ah right in the comfort of your own home or ah wherever that may be maybe placed from ah from a treadmill perspective.
Simulating Race Routes and Long Runs
00:19:21
Joe Justice
But that that can be hugely beneficial. And And then third, I will fart licks, but only on kicker run. and So, know, fart licks all about speed play and and adjusting pace and that kind of thing. And you can do that and run free, you which is cool. So you can ebb and flow with pace, run a little faster, run a little slower and just just feel the run.
00:19:43
Joe Justice
And those are a lot of fun to do when you don't have to worry about clicking buttons. Every few seconds or every few minutes on the treadmill, you just do your thing. and So those are those are kind of my three favorite categories of of runs on the treadmill. um I'll i'll add i'll add add in one bonus, which are long runs.
00:20:00
Joe Justice
um now My preference is usually to do a long run outside. But I actually have grown more fond of doing long runs on the treadmill because it's super convenient. So I can put all my nutrition, and all my extra water bottles. i'm not like planting extra water bottles in the park five miles from my house or stopping by the car a few times to reload on hydration or electrolytes or anything like that. I just have it all there with me on the treadmill.
00:20:25
Joe Justice
And we have this, this cool strap that goes over the top of our laptop shelf. And it's, it's meant to hold a laptop in place, but it's actually really good at holding gels. and So, so I just stuff a bunch of gels under there and and get ready to go.
00:20:35
UKRunChat
ah
00:20:39
Joe Justice
And, and then that way I can practice my nutrition, get ready for a long race. And, and then, you know, I'm never far from, and you know, from a bathroom or from our water or whatever that may be. So, ah so it becomes a really convenient way to do long runs too.
00:20:52
UKRunChat
yeah so how how long would you generally spend doing doing a long run what's the longest you would do on a treadmill what would you recommend does it matter is there a limit
00:20:59
Joe Justice
Um, I mean, it, there's no real limit. I mean, it depends on, depends on the runner. depends on what you're training for. and i did a 21 mile long run on, on my treadmill at home, uh, back in, back in March, leading up to a marathon that I also did on the treadmill.
00:21:12
UKRunChat
Thank you.
00:21:17
Joe Justice
Uh, and, uh, and so, yeah, so there's no, no real limit there. I mean, we've got, ah you know, we've got some wonderful brand ambassadors, which, you know, it's kind of a pinch me moment to see all these runners that, that I'm a huge fan of that there are also brand ambassadors for Wahoo and,
00:21:31
Joe Justice
You know see Cole Hawker and Clayton Young and Jim Walmsley, and and these guys are running you know either super fast ah short races or marathons or ultras in Jim's case. and And these guys are using the treadmill to simulate race routes and do long runs and do targeted hill work and
Myths and Comparisons: Treadmill vs Outdoor Running
00:21:49
Joe Justice
that kind of thing. So yes, there's really there's really no limit. and it's It's all about what you're training for and and what you want to do.
00:21:55
UKRunChat
Yeah. So, yeah, I'm just thinking back years ago when I first started running, I trained for my first half marathon on a treadmill in the gym that I was a member of, I think, because I was a bit scared to outside running.
00:22:06
UKRunChat
I felt a bit self-conscious.
00:22:07
Joe Justice
Sir? sir
00:22:08
UKRunChat
And I remember one of the kind of personal trainers coming up to me and going, you should not be running that far on a treadmill. And I've always wondered since then, well, should I have? But clearly people do, don't they?
00:22:19
UKRunChat
Yeah. And it doesn't cause any adverse effects.
00:22:19
Joe Justice
yeah
00:22:21
UKRunChat
Is it different though? Like should runners... ah adjust the kind of pace on a treadmill does it differ is it kind of does a treadmill make make it easier or are you slower on a treadmill what's your opinion there
00:22:36
Joe Justice
Um, yeah, so a few, a few different components to that. So, so there's, there's some old adages and some older research on, and you know, kind of a rule of thumb to say you should always set the treadmill at 1% incline to help simulate outdoor running.
00:22:49
Joe Justice
Uh, and you know, it's an old, old heuristic and, and kind of rule of thumb for treadmill running, but, but a lot of that's really predicated on, and you don't have the wind resistance that, that you would feel outside,
00:23:01
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:01
Joe Justice
and And while that's true, and you know we don't we don't believe at Wahoo that that that really accounts for all the variables there. So you know as ah as I mentioned earlier, running is really metabolically inefficient.
00:23:15
Joe Justice
and So you generate a lot of heat. So the the energy that you consume as a runner, yeah the actually the majority of it is about keeping your body cool. So so you may you may have noticed running on a treadmill that you sweat more than you outside. And it's just because indoor running is really hot.
00:23:29
Joe Justice
and So we always recommend
00:23:30
UKRunChat
Yeah, we we have two big fans, actually, at the side of ours. Yeah.
00:23:34
Joe Justice
Yeah, exactly. And and that's actually like low key.
00:23:35
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:37
Joe Justice
One of my favorite Wahoo products is is called the Kicker Headwind. And it's a Bluetooth connected fan that works with all of our hardware.
00:23:40
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:23:43
Joe Justice
and And you can actually connect it to your heart rate monitor. So the faster your heart beats, the faster the fan blows. And it's just it's so cool. And so that's a it's a wonderful compliment to to the treadmill or indoor bikes or or that kind of thing. Yeah.
00:23:57
Joe Justice
but But because the indoor running is is even hotter and in most cases, some of that that extra heat generation we think helps offset that and from ah from that 1% incline golden rule.
00:24:08
Joe Justice
but But it's also, you know, you know he talked about like adjusting pace or adjusting stride or anything like that, but that That's not necessarily required, but we we actually recommend against just setting a treadmill at 1% because there's actually additional load on the Achilles tendon um and it's very static.
00:24:13
UKRunChat
you
00:24:26
Joe Justice
so and So that is one of the downsides of doing a ton of treadmill running is it's it's extremely consistent. yeah're You're always running on a perfectly consistent flat surface, and and you can actually get additional overuse injuries if you run completely on a treadmill.
00:24:43
Joe Justice
and so So that's actually one of the things that that we thought about too with Kicker Run is we actually have what we call so terrain simulation.
00:24:46
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:24:49
Joe Justice
So it's it's something that you can toggle on or off and and you can do it laterally or front to back and laterally. so So what that does is every 30 seconds or so, the treadmill is going to tilt half a percent left, right, forward, backwards, because we can we can do both incline and decline, which is a lot of fun.
00:25:08
Joe Justice
um And it's just meant to to try and vary the terrain a little bit for you. So you start to work those stabilizer muscles in the ankles a little bit and and just throw your body a few randomized and things that it has to adjust to and because it you know it is there is a detriment there to to running at the same exact incline, same exact lateral tilt over and over and over. And running is already repetitive enough.
00:25:32
Joe Justice
So we wanted to incorporate some more of that to help prevent injury and and make running inside feel more like outside. Um,
00:25:39
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's genius, actually. Yeah, you really have thought of everything, haven't you? So if if runners don't have a treadmill that does that, is there anything else that they could do to to help account for that?
00:25:50
UKRunChat
Or is it just a case of making sure you get outside occasionally as well?
00:25:54
Joe Justice
um Yeah. I mean, you know, in an ideal scenario, you get the opportunity to run outside too. I mean, and i'm I'm never going to discourage that because that's, that's one of the joys of running.
00:25:59
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:26:03
Joe Justice
Um, but, but if you, if you are limited to a treadmill, one thing that I would recommend is that is, you know, most treadmills, whether you're in a hotel or and you know, in your basement or or whatever that is, most treadmills have some level of incline.
00:26:17
Joe Justice
and So we would suggest using that, ah but just varying it. and so So do a little bit of running it flat, you know, put it up to one or 2%, run like that for a few minutes, bring it back down.
00:26:26
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:26:28
Joe Justice
And you can do your own kind of little baby hill workout where where you have some running it flat and some running at a very small hill. and And that alone will really help with ah with engaging some additional muscles in the lower legs and and help with some of those addition yeah the there's additional ah overuse injuries that could happen, and just because you're varying your terrain.
00:26:48
Joe Justice
and You know, I may not have that side-to-side tilt that that we have, but and but a little bit of incline and flat mixed in will definitely help.
00:26:57
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that's that's good advice. Thank you, Jo. I mean, what we can't simulate on a treadmill, sadly, is the downhill,
Injury Prevention and Treadmill Surfaces
00:27:02
UKRunChat
can we? We can't do that downhill running. So I guess we still have to to do that elsewhere.
00:27:07
Joe Justice
there there are a few treadmills, ours included, that that can do downhill.
00:27:09
UKRunChat
Yeah. Yeah. one
00:27:11
Joe Justice
So yeah so we can we can do up to ah plus 15% incline and then down to minus 3% decline. So we're one of the few out there that can actually simulate the downhill running.
00:27:19
UKRunChat
yeah
00:27:23
Joe Justice
And when when we connect that with a ah route simulation, for example, that And, you know, I'll i'll brag on Clayton, ah Clayton Young, who performed wonderfully and in the Boston Marathon.
00:27:34
Joe Justice
But that he used the treadmill to run the Newton Hills and and and simulate those as part of the course. But it's it's not just uphill. There's also some downhills in there that can be pretty hard on the body.
00:27:43
UKRunChat
yeah
00:27:45
Joe Justice
And but but just as a you know, regardless of who you are, I'm no Clayton, I'm no Olympic marathon or anything like that. ah but But simulating that cresting of an uphill into a downhill feels incredible.
00:27:56
UKRunChat
yeah
00:27:57
Joe Justice
I mean, it's such a such a surreal thing to do that and feel that inside and and get that additional additional load that you feel and and kind of tipping you forward, getting you more on your forefeet and that kind of thing with but downhill running is is really cool on a treadmill.
00:28:13
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that sounds brilliant. So are there are there any common mistakes that people make on the treadmills that can, because we mentioned kind of avoiding injury earlier, that can perhaps cause injury or reduce the effectiveness of training? Have you got any thoughts on that?
00:28:28
Joe Justice
um Yeah, I mean, I think it's the, you know, one of the one of the misconceptions about running about running on a treadmill or just treadmills in general is that they have to be really, and really soft.
00:28:41
Joe Justice
it's You know, there's a lot of communication about ah about this, like, absorbing shock and and that kind of thing. But but with the with the movement of of running shoe development and advanced cushioning and these crazy foams that all these shoe brands have, know,
00:28:57
Joe Justice
you know, those are really what's designed to cushion your running. and so if you add that on top of a cushioned treadmill, ah you're really soaking up a lot of the energy from from your effort. So and so for those that that have run on a really soft treadmill, you might find that, you know, it feels good for 20 or 30 seconds, but it begins to feel a lot, ah like a lot more work because you're losing a lot of energy into the treadmill itself because it's absorbing that.
00:29:21
Joe Justice
And an energy return is is part of running. it's like muscle elasticity and, and And this propulsion forward that you get. So so sometimes running six minute pace on a treadmill feels like five minute pace.
00:29:34
Joe Justice
And it's just because you're losing so much energy into the treadmill. So it doesn't have to be that way. and And we don't believe that there's much benefit to that. and so So we really took a different approach. So we designed Kicker Run with a kind of rubberized track or hard pack trail in mind.
00:29:48
Joe Justice
So there's a little cushioning, ah but it's very firm and very responsive.
00:29:50
UKRunChat
yeah.
00:29:52
Joe Justice
So that's one of the first things that people people say when they they hop on is like, oh, this feels really stable and and my pace feels real. And it's because there's so much energy return rather than shock absorption and so So that's one of the things that that I would suggest is and is really focus on running surface if you're if you're looking for a treadmill and make sure that you run for more than 30 seconds because you'll you'll really notice the the difference after after just a few seconds the to know.
00:30:20
Joe Justice
It's like, okay, this this feels like running outside or or it doesn't.
00:30:24
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:30:24
UKRunChat
ah but there's cause so That's interesting because that, yeah, that's kind of the question I was trying to ask earlier when I was asking about why pace differs, but that explains it really well.
00:30:24
Joe Justice
and
00:30:26
Joe Justice
Yeah, i go ahead.
00:30:34
Joe Justice
Ah, yes.
00:30:35
UKRunChat
Yeah. So it's, it's the loss of energy into the treadmill.
00:30:36
Joe Justice
yeah
00:30:38
UKRunChat
I'd never thought of it that way before.
00:30:40
Joe Justice
yeah Yeah, absolutely. And it's it's funny because that's how most treadmills are are marketed. is It's like, hey, we absorbed 37% of the shock from running or or whatever metric that they're using, but that's not really what you want.
00:30:55
Joe Justice
and It may feel good.
00:30:55
UKRunChat
no Yeah, because it gets
00:30:56
Joe Justice
Like I said, may feel good for a short time, but and but doesn it doesn't feel like real running. And, uh, and you know, and then we let the the shoes do, do the talking and, and our treadmill is actually one of the few out there that, that work really well with carbon plated shoes.
00:31:10
Joe Justice
So if you want to test out your race shoes for a quick workout or something like that, ours is actually firm enough to help flex that carbon plate and, and get that same extra propulsion feeling. Um, so that can be, that can be a lot of fun, but, but talking about
00:31:25
UKRunChat
Sorry, I was going to say, I guess really if um people are training for an outdoor race and are doing a lot of training on a treadmill that's absorbing a lot of energy from them, they are going to feel it when they do come to do that race out there.
00:31:26
Joe Justice
yeah
00:31:33
Joe Justice
that
00:31:38
UKRunChat
they're goingnna That's going to feel really tough. So that's, you
00:31:40
Joe Justice
Yeah, yeah, it's going to, yeah, it's going to feel different. And, and, and your legs aren't going to be quite as prepared as they could
Engaging with Treadmill Running
00:31:46
Joe Justice
be. Um, because that, that race is going to, um, you know, maybe beat you up a little bit more because you're, you're loose used to, uh, all that extra shock absorption.
00:31:56
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that's really good to bear in mind. Yeah.
00:31:59
Joe Justice
Yeah. and And talking a little bit more about some of the misconceptions there, and you know, it was like we we talked a little bit of about at the beginning about the treadmills can be kind of boring and uninspired.
00:32:09
UKRunChat
and
00:32:10
Joe Justice
And, know, it's just the you get the adage of, you know, it's ah it's a dreadmill and people don't want to people don't want to run on them. and but But that's really where we focused on making the treadmill feel more like outdoor running. And we've incorporated features like ah route simulation and you know we connect to third-party apps like swift and and you can yeah run in a virtual world and get that extra engagement and and that kind of thing so you know running inside and indoor running doesn't have to be boring uh if you if you set it up correctly and and go after it in the right mentality
00:32:42
UKRunChat
Yeah, so it is possible to get excited about going on the treadmill. I'm i'm optimistic now.
00:32:47
Joe Justice
i love it i love it
00:32:50
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's good. Somebody said to me this morning, actually, because I do some coaching as well. And she said she feels a little bit out of control on a treadmill. It's like because it's like the treadmill takes control of the pace.
00:32:58
Joe Justice
Mm-hmm.
00:33:02
UKRunChat
So it's it's how do you know what kind of pace to set yourself on a treadmill? Do you have any tips on that?
00:33:08
Joe Justice
um Yeah, I mean, i think I think a lot of it comes down to to comfort. so So whether you're a new runner or just somebody who doesn't doesn't run on treadmills very often, ah you know i was I always say take take the warm-up and you know if that whether that's just walking or or you know fast walking, light jogging, and take take the warm-up to get comfortable with the treadmill and and focus on your positioning on the treadmill. so ah So for me, I run abnormally close to the front of the treadmill.
00:33:36
Joe Justice
Um, and you know, I'll say be careful with that because some, sometimes treadmills have that kind of front hood where they, they mount the motor so you can clip your feet on that. So be careful with that. But, um, but, but find your, find your kind of comfort zone. Like if you like to run towards the front and that feels like that gives you more control, then, then do that ah because that that's going to help you feel more comfortable throughout the run. And, you know, and then on the flip side, our, our treadmill doesn't have a big screen or big console ahead of you, but sometimes treadmills can feel really claustrophobic because there's a ton of buttons, a big screen in front of you, and and you feel kind of isolated and kind of cocooned in.
00:34:09
Joe Justice
So, so if that's the case and you kind of get that that anxiety with that, uh, step back a little bit, run towards, you more the middle of the running surface and give yourself some, some kind of breathing room and some room to, to work your arms as you would normally do. And, uh, and, and yeah, so like find, find your comfort zone positioning wise on the treadmill and, and don't push it if you don't feel ready to push it.
Proper Treadmill Warm-up and Cool-down
00:34:31
Joe Justice
And, and that's, uh, you some of the tips that I would say as far as just getting comfortable and and getting used to it. and And then of course, a shameless plug, you know having run free on on something like a kicker run is is a huge benefit because you're in control.
00:34:45
UKRunChat
Yeah, there's some really good tips there, Jo. Thank you. You mentioned warm ups there. What would you recommend as a good warm up and a cool down for runners on the treadmill?
00:34:55
Joe Justice
and Yeah. I mean, similar, similar to the like what you do outside. I mean, you know, a bit of dynamic stretching and, and that kind of thing that that you might do depending on if you've been at a desk all day. and you know, I always say err on the side of more warmup and and more cool down if you can.
00:35:09
Joe Justice
and so so for my myself, I'm, I'm typically two ish miles of warmup and cool down, ah even if it's at the detriment of, of a slightly shorter focused part of the workout, uh, just to make sure that my body's ready and, you know, sit and stand all day and and on meetings and and all kinds of stuff. And, you know, my body's not always primed to hop on a treadmill for, you know, a quick, ah quick 10 K or or whatever that may be. So, uh, so I just say, take your time, build up slowly, uh, do a few strides and, and,
00:35:37
Joe Justice
build up into some some faster cadences and faster paces take a break do a little walking and and just really get the blood flowing get your body moving and feeling good before you start engaging with some of those faster paces or or steady efforts of a tempo run for example um but but yeah i'd say you know, normal, normal type stuff that that you would do for your outdoor runs, do those for an indoor run.
00:35:58
Joe Justice
ah But yeah, I mean, sort for myself, I'll do, you know, a couple sets of walking lunges, um some, some dynamic stretching for, for quads and hamstrings and nothing, no long holds or anything like that, trying to get the muscle to relax or anything, but, but just warmed up and get some blood flowing.
00:36:13
Joe Justice
And then, you know, ah roughly a mile of, ah you know, my one, one, one and a half k for, uh, for some steady slow running to warm up, uh, you know, a couple of short 50 to hundred meter, um, pace pickups, uh, just to get the the legs turning over a bit more quickly. Um, and then, you know, another half mile or, you know, one K or so, ah to, to kind of round out the warmup and then, and then jump right into the workout.
00:36:38
UKRunChat
Yeah, no, that sounds great. I think a lot of runners tend to kind of either skip or rush the warm
Training for Pacing and Efficiency
00:36:43
UKRunChat
up. So that's good to hear that it is important to do a longer one, even at the detriment of getting because because we often do a treadmill session if we're a bit short on time as well, don't we?
00:36:52
UKRunChat
So, yeah, tempting to kind of skip that warm up.
00:36:53
Joe Justice
Yep. yep
00:36:55
UKRunChat
But really, we're not going to get the benefit, are we, out of the the speed work if we do that?
00:37:01
Joe Justice
No, absolutely. and and And treadmills can be a really good way to, you know, it's like one of the one of the most common problems that that ah that we see, that I see, that that we all see with with runners is running easy days too hard and hard days too easy. And and using a treadmill can help really teach you to to dial those things in more correctly and more more efficiently. yeah.
00:37:23
Joe Justice
ah So if if that's a ah you know common problem that you have is running easy days too hard, utilize static treadmill pacing and set that treadmill at whatever your zone two pace is or your easy pace easy run pace is and just lock yourself in. Don't let yourself go faster. And it's a good way to drill that in and and get comfortable with certain paces.
00:37:45
Joe Justice
and And because our treadmill feels very much like running outside, that translates really well. so So if my zone two pace seven minutes per kilometer or whatever that may be, if I spend a lot of time indoors running exactly at that pace or close to it, then i have that kind of muscle memory and that feeling that I can translate towards outside.
00:38:05
Joe Justice
So I'm not overdoing it on easy days. And then i have that much more you know gas in the tank for for those hard days when those come to you
00:38:12
UKRunChat
But that is genius,
Mindset and Treadmill Selection
00:38:14
UKRunChat
actually. Yeah, I've got a couple of clients at the moment who are struggling to stick to their recovery paces. I might recommend treadmill running for them. Actually, that's a really good idea.
00:38:24
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:38:24
Joe Justice
Oh yeah. Yeah. I just, I love running so much.
00:38:25
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:38:26
Joe Justice
I just get super excited. So it's like, I go out for a zone to run and then all of a sudden I'm cruising tempo pace and i was like, well, this didn't work out.
00:38:27
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:38:33
UKRunChat
I know it's so easy to do, especially if somebody you know is on the other side of the street or, you know, a car goes past and you kind of just pump it up a bit, pump up the tempo. it's tempt to isn it it yeah so That's brilliant.
00:38:43
Joe Justice
sure is. Yeah. Or you've got a runner up ahead that that you want to catch. it's like, ah, this is slowly becoming a race. Yeah.
00:38:51
UKRunChat
isn's it Is there anything that we haven't covered on treadmill running then? Cause we're kind of coming to the end of our, of our chat now. Is there anything else that we've missed or that you wanted to mention?
00:39:01
Joe Justice
Yeah, I mean, I think just a ah couple of things with with kind of how how people look at treadmills and and shop for treadmills. And, you know, I just suggest everybody take ah take a look at at what matters to them most.
00:39:13
Joe Justice
And, you know, we find that through tons of information. interviews and surveys and going to races and and talking with runners all over the world at this point, that, you know, people really want something that's sturdy and stable.
00:39:26
Joe Justice
And, you know, they're very much focused on the running surface. So so don't don't sacrifice on those things if you can and and find one that you feel really comfortable on. ah You know, and another thing that that people really hone in on is quietness.
00:39:40
Joe Justice
So, so I suggest looking at that and that's, that's, you know, surprise, surprise. Another thing that we thought about is, you know, our treadmill has these huge rollers. So the, the rollers that turn the belt around the treadmill are about 10 times the size of a normal treadmill roller, and which is kind of like a, like a rolling pin size. Ours are um not, not quite soccer ball or football size ah diameter.
00:40:04
Joe Justice
And that helps us do a couple of things where, know, One, we're able to accelerate and decelerate faster than nearly any treadmill out there, but also it means that we don't have to turn them as quickly. So the treadmill is extremely quiet.
00:40:15
Joe Justice
and And, you know, one of our one of our favorite guys, David Roach, has posted some videos recently of running with his his yeah young young child in a... ah and And basically in a stroller next to the treadmill, just sleeping away.
00:40:29
Joe Justice
And and he's getting his workout in. And it was cool to see the the treadmill get used in that way to to support, you know, new parents and and that kind of thing, because they're already short on
Beginners Guide to Treadmill Workouts
00:40:39
Joe Justice
time. So having a super loud treadmill is not going to be helpful on that front.
00:40:40
UKRunChat
No.
00:40:42
UKRunChat
no Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. and So what final tips would you give to runners then who are new to treadmill running? So it's important to to obviously go and try them if you're looking at buying one first.
00:40:53
UKRunChat
um Any kind of tips for those who are about to step onto a treadmill and do their kind of first workout? What do they need to be looking at?
00:41:02
Joe Justice
Yeah, absolutely. and So yeah, again, I think getting yourself familiar with all the controls and and doing that at a slow pace, even if that just means you you do a couple of workouts, just walking or fast walking or or you know very slow jogging, and just get yourself comfortable and familiar.
00:41:19
Joe Justice
And, you know, it's like weall we all have that little moment of panic if we're getting getting running a little bit too fast on on a treadmill. So if, ah you know, if you've got some additional control over that ah with with something like Run Free, or if you're just that much more familiar with where all the controls are, how they work, how hard do I need to press that button?
00:41:38
Joe Justice
Or how how quickly do I need to pull this lever? Can I can i click and hold it? Do I have to click it a bunch of times? um just Just get yourself very very familiar with the controls. and And that way it feels natural.
00:41:49
Joe Justice
If you feel uncomfortable or out of control, um then then you have you have that comfort zone of knowing, I know exactly how this thing works.
Safety and Trends in Treadmill Use
00:41:57
Joe Justice
and And I know exactly what to do to get this thing to slow down.
00:42:01
UKRunChat
Yeah, that's great. Thank you. And then I have one final question, which is about a trend I've seen recently on social media about people going back walking backwards on a treadmill.
00:42:05
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:42:12
UKRunChat
Is this just a silly trend? I'm going to ask the expert. Is this just a trend or is there actual benefit in it? What do you think as a coach and a treadmill expert?
00:42:21
Joe Justice
yeah it's It's not something that that I would recommend. and you know I think it's there's probably some benefits to it from from some type of like muscular activation, if if I had to guess.
00:42:33
Joe Justice
It's not one that I've particularly researched much, but but I think it's the the safety aspect of it probably probably outweighs the benefit ah for for doing that on a treadmill.
00:42:44
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:42:45
Joe Justice
So and so I would just say use use caution if you have some fun with it and
00:42:48
UKRunChat
Yeah.
00:42:50
Joe Justice
and whatnot, go for it, but but safety first, please. I
Episode Wrap-up and Wahoo Fitness Connection
00:42:53
Joe Justice
love it.
00:42:53
UKRunChat
Yeah. Oh, thank you so much, Jo. It's been lovely talking to you. Thank you. It's been a really insightful episode and it has, I think it has encouraged me to try my treadmill a little bit more. and
00:43:03
Joe Justice
i love it
00:43:04
UKRunChat
Where can our listeners find out more about Wahoo Treadmills or kind of connect with you on socials?
00:43:11
Joe Justice
Absolutely. So, see so we're we're Wahoo Fitness pretty much everywhere or or Wahoo Fitness officials. So find us on Instagram, YouTube, our our website, wahoofitness.com. And or we're very much excited to to be expanding Kicker Run through throughout the the global market. So and the U.S. and, you know, building across Europe over the course of 2025. So very much excited for for what's ahead and and maybe look for us at ah at a big race expo and come give Kicker Run a try for yourself.
00:43:41
UKRunChat
Yes. So are you kind of will you be around the UK? I know you were recently in London, weren't you?
00:43:47
Joe Justice
Yep. Yep. We were just at London Marathon and that was, that was kind of our big debut for, for kicker run launching in Europe. And so that was a a ton of fun and, and actually had just for Ness from the running channel.
00:43:57
Joe Justice
She ran the London Marathon kicker run on Saturday and then ran the real race on Sunday.
00:44:01
UKRunChat
yeah
00:44:03
Joe Justice
and so it was really cool to see, see her do that. and But, but yeah, so we'll, we'll have demo centers all across Europe and yeah. And I believe we'll probably be at Berlin Marathon maybe.
00:44:15
Joe Justice
um Yeah, a little little surprise there. And as we continue to expand, so so we've got some exciting stuff ahead.
00:44:21
UKRunChat
Yeah, oh fantastic. Well, keep us posted and we look forward to hearing all about it in due course.
00:44:24
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:44:26
UKRunChat
ah Thank you very much for joining us today all the way from Atlanta.
00:44:27
Joe Justice
Yeah.
00:44:31
UKRunChat
And we hope that everybody out there listening has enjoyed this episode. Do let us know if there's any anything else that you wanted to know about treadmills that we might not have covered. And I'm sure we can we can find that out for you. And until the next time, we'll see you on the next episode.