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Sarah Wilkins-Laflamme & Joel Thiessen
41 Plays4 hours ago
Episode 32 - Humanist Canada's Daniel Dacombe sits down with sociologists Sarah Wilkins-Laflamme and Joel Thiessen to discuss religion, atheism, refusal, and acceptance in today's society. They bridge the gap between Canada and the US by revealing how both countries face the same religious dilemmas, and how both religious and secular scholars can work together to advance solutions to these dilemmas..
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Transcript
Introduction to Canadian Humanism Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
It's also that as Canadians, we like to think of ourselves as quite distinct from Americans. But in reality, there's there is usually more similarities than differences. And in this case, amongst the non-religious populations in both countries, there are a lot of similarities.
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens.
Meet the Host: Daniel Daycomb
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation. Well, hello everyone. My name is Daniel Daycomb and I am one of the hosts of the Voice of Canadian Humanism podcast. On this podcast, we like to feature the voices that are involved in, leading or important to humanism in Canada and beyond.
00:01:00
Speaker
I'm very pleased to be joined today by returning guest, Dr. Sarah Wilkins Laflamme and her frequent collaborator, Dr. Joel Thiessen. Welcome here, you two. Hi, everyone. Thanks. Great to be
Guest Introductions: Dr. Sarah Wilkins Laflamme & Dr. Joel Thiessen
00:01:11
Speaker
here.
00:01:11
Speaker
So ah one of the things that we like to do when we start off with these interviews is to ask our guests a bit about themselves. Usually we ask about their cultural or religious background or environment that they grew up in and where they currently are with those. ah Sarah, if you could give a ah very kind of brief intro to yourself. i I know that you've been on here before, so people want the full the full backstory with all the details. They can go back to our first episode. ah But to give yourself a brief introduction before we introduce ah
Sarah's Journey from Quebec to Sociology
00:01:42
Speaker
Joel. Yeah, i grew up in rural Quebec and an hour north of Ottawa, ah mostly non-religious s upbringing, bit kind of cultural Catholicism thrown in. Parents were sort of fallen away Christians. I think I was baptized because they were worried I wouldn't get into the public school, which was still Catholic at that time. That's how old I am. um But ba yeah, didn't have a whole lot of exposure to religion, but started studying it from a sociological perspective in grad school and and have been hooked ever since.
Secularization in Quebec: A Cultural Shift
00:02:12
Speaker
Thank you. I think that Quebec's secularization journey is very similar to Ireland's. There's lots of parallels. There's lots of interesting kind of ah things going on with the cultural Catholicism. It did a bit earlier, happened a bit quicker, but it it remained in schools for a long time. I think that's the kind of peculiar thing.
00:02:30
Speaker
Having been to Quebec a few times, i I quite love it there. And I'm hoping that sometime I might get out there the same time as ah but many of the people I've met over the years who have emigrated away from Quebec to different parts of Canada.
Joel's Path from Baptist Upbringing to Sociology
00:02:46
Speaker
So, ah Joel, could you tell us a bit about yourself? Yeah, I was born in Calgary, but grew up in Winnipeg, so not far from you, Daniel. And um my father was a a Baptist pastor, so I was raised within Christian traditions. Christianity was was deeply important for our family and still is for me ah through to this day.
00:03:09
Speaker
So actively involved in local church, Christian family, etc. um I initially wanted to be a youth pastor, and so I went to a Bible college, And then through that experience, I took a course in sociology and sort of this light bulb went off on all the kinds of cool things you could do in sociology and sociology of religion. And that put me on a path to want to know more about religious attitudes and beliefs and behaviors and experiences in Canada. And so I explored that through my undergraduate degree.
The Intersection of Sarah and Joel's Academic Paths
00:03:43
Speaker
at what is now Ambrose University where i i teach and then i went off to University of Waterloo to do my master's and PhD in sociology looking at religion and culture in Canada so I kind of have this foot both in the the religious door in camp and then academically research wise looking at some of these things as well so yeah a little bit of my background ah That's one thing that we have in common and is that ah it was Bible college for me and my sociology professor in Bible college that really got me very interested in this end of ah this end of the research and this end of academia. So I think that's that's really interesting. Yeah. And so you currently you currently live and teach in in Calgary. And Sarah, you you ah live and teach at University of Waterloo.
The Rise of Non-Religious Demographics in Canada
00:04:34
Speaker
Yeah. correct Yeah. Where Joel did his grad work.
00:04:37
Speaker
Is that where you guys met? One of my colleagues? No, we know we met we met quite a bit after that. What, 2014? So 12 years ago now? Wow, that's a long time. ah Yeah, we met at a conference at Brock University in St. Catharines, I think, if I'm Correct me if I'm wrong, Joel. um I mean, I'd been reading Joel's work before that. And I think, Joel, you might have been reading mine before that as well. And and we we finally met in person. and and And we were kind of pretty much the only two sociologists at the time who were really focused on interest by non-religious populations and kind of what was going on with them, um the fact that they were growing, who were they, what was going on in Canada. And and and we got along. We hit it off. So we decided to start collaborating together in our work and Yeah, the rest is history.
00:05:26
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would add to that. So I started at Ambrose on faculty in 2008, and I was still finishing my PhD at University of Waterloo at the time. And my PhD was looking at those who attend religious services, Christian services in particular, on a weekly basis and comparing them with those who say they have no religion.
00:05:47
Speaker
Sorry, no, comparing them with those who are attending religious holidays and rites of passage. And so I did that for my doctorate work. And then when that was done, and I was looking at my first book project, I started turning to this no religion group that was seeing some of the statistics growing and came across some of Sarah's work. And so that kind of launched me post PhD after I started teaching at Ambrose that then culminated when when Sarah was eventually done her doctorate work and started at Waterloo, et cetera, that our our worlds
Motivations Behind Studying Non-Religious Groups
00:06:16
Speaker
converge. So it sort of by chance happens at Waterloo as a ah shared storyline there, but was at different periods of time.
00:06:24
Speaker
Yeah, I'd just come back from Britain because I did some my grad work in the UK. And so I was just coming back to Canada at the time when I met Julian. Yeah. So it was ah it was a time when you'd both been reading each other's work and you um you you met at the conference and then that ah that started the professional working relationship where ah you you both were focusing on this very interesting group that isn't technically in the religious camp, but is related to the sociology of religion, the non-religious. Why was that of so much interest to to both of you?
00:07:03
Speaker
Joel? Yeah, sure. i I can kick that off. I mean, it was it was of interest to me because first off, it was it was a growing demographic, one of the fastest growing kind of religious slash non-religious demographics in Canada and the US, much of Western Europe. So...
00:07:17
Speaker
um it warranted attention where there was little sociological attention. i think second, it um it wasn't always the logical next step for folks who maybe were raised within a religious tradition, maybe migrated to um somewhat involved in religious groups and perhaps softening religious beliefs and practices over the course of time. But the next step for for many was this no religion
Research Opportunities in Non-Religious Studies
00:07:42
Speaker
camp. So it was just a desire to better understand that group. And Sarah's work, I mean, especially at this conference that was noted, I think what put me on to her work in part was, i don't know if you remember this, Sarah, but there was a Globe and Mail article that had featured your your research. You'd want to talk to my first media. Yeah, so it was amazing. It was like, ah i think you'd want a top student award, a grad student award or something at this conference. It was on religious nuns.
00:08:07
Speaker
And so was at that conference where then obviously attended your session and started, you exploring some of these things together. So that was a few things for me, at least that that drew me into that area.
00:08:18
Speaker
Yeah, same. same and my friend For me, I also noticed people in a lot of the writings about religion in Canada, people were sort of quickly referring to the non-religious group, just almost in passing, not not really knowing a whole lot about it, to be honest, and sometimes making some assumptions about the group that I was a bit dubious about, coming from a more non-religious background. was like, really? is that really us? Do we care that much about religion? Do we think about it?
00:08:46
Speaker
um And so so for me, it was kind of an interest on on that from from my own personal experience, but also kind of to maybe dispel some of the the myths or stereotypes or at least test some of the untested ideas that were out there in the field at the time. And also kind of when you're a young scholar, you're looking for that kind of opening in the field that people haven't really worked that much in yet. So you kind of make it your own space, you kind of make it your own focus. And and for me, and probably for Joel as well, that was one of ours, was kind of there was room to grow in the non-religious focus of of research, because again, there weren't a whole lot of other people working on it at the time.
Collaborative Dynamics Between Sarah and Joel
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, and having been to some academic conferences, I i know the the joys of finding somebody just as weird as you are and interested in the the exact same niche ah research gap.
00:09:37
Speaker
That can be a real special moment. it It was. I have a lot of good memories from that conference. And randomly, I almost got hit by a tree when it fell down while I was hiking while was in St. Catharines. it's Like the memories I have from 14 years ago. But I do remember a lot of good discussions with Joel. Yeah.
00:09:55
Speaker
Well, we we'll circle back to the tree thing. But so after the conference and you've been reading each other's work and you stayed you stayed in touch, and it sounds like you started working together, which for for people in our audience who aren't academics or haven't done research work, that can be a bit of a a long process of you know collaboration and identifying um you know identifying what you want to study on a particular research project
Mixed-Method Approaches in Religious Research
00:10:23
Speaker
ah from start to finish. it's It's quite involved. What's the process of working together like for you? Do you each have a specific skill set or or focus? ah You obviously come from very different perspectives, which is useful, but how did the two of you ah typically do your work together?
00:10:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I would say first off, ah both of us have collaborated with lots of of other folks over the years, but I would say this is among the best collaborations. I mean, Sarah and I just get on so well and um work well together, personality, easygoing, communication, like all these kinds of things just for working together. But I think there's a number of things that have worked for us. One is We have complementary but different methodological skills. So Sarah comes more from the quantitative research methods background. I come from a qualitative context. And so this has enabled us to do a lot of mixed methodology research that I think is really helpful, especially for a group that we don't know as much about in ah in a scholarly way.
00:11:21
Speaker
um But within that, we come from similar sociological training of thinking about how religion and non-religion um play out within society, how the social context and environment plays into our our understanding of a social life.
00:11:36
Speaker
I think, and I don't think we probably anticipated this at the outset, but our own religious and non-religious backgrounds and sensibilities, I think, has enhanced some of our discussions and conversations and our analysis of the data. i mean, still, we want to hold true to our our disciplinary training of trying to be as objective as possible when when looking at the data and following the data and not our own personal whims and and wishes per se. But I say those are a few things that certainly stand out. and And Sarah, no doubt you probably have some other things to add on how we've worked and why it's worked so well. Yeah, it it has. ah it's It's a very easy collaboration. i call like so some theres There's a lot of different ways you can work with people. And and and i've had I've had a whole range like Joel has is that some people it's worth it, but it's a lot of work and and and it's difficult at moments. But i don't know, Joel and I had always seem to click and it it works well. And Yeah, we we have different methodological skill ah skill sets. um And like Joel said, we have a similar sociological training framing that. And also in general, we have a kind of similar way of thinking about the the landscape and and religion, right? that That a lot of forms of traditional Christianity on the decline in Canada. But that being said, there's some kind of pockets of spiritual but not religious groups. There's some pockets of religious vitality within Christianity with a outside of Christianity, the importance of immigration, as always we both agree on in in that landscape. And I know it kind of sounds obvious sometimes, but like I've met people in the U.S. who have like a completely different view of what's going on. and and in my view, applaud in some ways. And it's really hard to work with people like that, right? And so it's some we' sometimes we don't even think about it, but it's it's pretty important that there's kind of some shared fundamentals there that we can build on in our work and and that we do, yeah.
Exploring 'None of the Above': A Book on Non-Religious Demographics
00:13:26
Speaker
So you come from different ah methodological schools, um quantitative versus qualitative. And for our our listeners' benefit, ah quantitative is a lot more of like the be hard data. Statistics. A lot of the numbers. yeah yeah the Stuff we we count in numbers, yeah.
00:13:45
Speaker
Yeah, whereas qualitative would be more of the the stories and the meanings and the themes and the the things that we think about and that matter to us on ah you know on an on a narrative level. Would that be accurate, Joel? Yeah, exactly. And like interviews and focus groups and ethnographic research that gets you closer to those things you've described.
00:14:05
Speaker
And case studies as well, which I always find really yeah fascinating to read, even if they're not as generalizable to the to to the general public, I still find them very interesting to to read. And so a mixed method study is when you bring both of those skill sets together, and they can inform and and and enhance each other. And there's a lot of really great examples of mixed methods research um in this in this field. We had Dr. Hugh Turpin on last year, who wrote his book Unholy Catholic Ireland, which is ah a mixed methods text with a lot of statistics and and stories mixed together. ah But also so so is so is your book, ah the book that you wrote together, None of the Above, which includes a lot of both of what you bring to the table. How did that book come to be?
00:14:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, yeah, because each each type of data has its limitations, right? Like stats are good for giving an overview, kind of like, you know, census data, how do people affiliate in terms of religion across the country? What are the the general trends and patterns we're seeing? and And then the qualitative data kind of goes and gets that kind of depth, that detail, that those narratives behind behind the numbers,
00:15:17
Speaker
And so, yeah, for Joel and I, it was a chance for us to bring those two types of data that we both had. So Joel had some interview data, especially amongst some non-religious folks in Alberta. I had a lot of statistics from both Canada and the U.S. s And so it was our chance to bring it together. We had brought, we'd done a few articles. Often an academic book is kind of, builds on kind of, you start with a few journal articles and you build a book out of it. So that was sort of the case in this instance. But it's kind of back to the reason why we started working together in the first place was we both felt there was this kind of vacuum on research on non-religious populations, especially in Canada. There'd been some stuff being done in the UK and the US, but Canada, there there wasn't as much. And so we kind of felt there was a need and it was a good time, ah the right time to to get some kind of good quality empirical research out there on the topic.
Comparative Research: Canada vs. US Non-Religion
00:16:09
Speaker
And there was, you know, New York University Press had a book series on secular studies. And so it was, they were interested in in a book project. And so we we kind of went with them. And yeah, I guess we all, like for me, it was also, again, back to why I got into studying the non-religious is kind of want to give a more non-partisan view, if you want, of this growing non-religious population. Yeah.
00:16:32
Speaker
That was, you know frankly, much larger now than it was you know a generation ago. right and so For us, it was a much more prevalent phenomenon for our generation than it had been, say, for like our our boomer colleagues who trained us in the field. right and so It's not so that surprising that we decided to focus on it, when whereas other people hadn't in the past. And so, yeah, just to kind of, you know, test out some some ideas about this population. who Who were they actually? What did they look like? How did they come to be non-religious um using that kind of good quality field data?
00:17:07
Speaker
I think building on some of those those ideas, we wanted to contribute to some of the theoretical and conceptual and empirical developments within the fields, particularly in Canada, where there wasn't, i mean, we had a little bit of data starting to trickle out, but what does it mean, right? They had to never speak for themselves. We wanted to try to provide some helpful tools in doing so.
00:17:27
Speaker
And like Sarah said, in a nonpartisan way, but ways that could engage both scholars and even like or practitioners, whether it's folks in religious groups or those who are part of um different organizations such as Humanist Canada and so forth to provide a sort of nonpartisan informed way to understand who this group of religious nuns are. And I think those shared interests for both Sarah and I building on our sociological training said that for broadest the table and said, we got to do this. And I'll just add that one of the things with, with New york university press and that secular studies series was we had initially pitched a book project that just looked at religious nuns in Canada oh yeah and they came back to us and they're like, well, we're,
00:18:10
Speaker
only going to do a project if you're going to include stuff on the United States in this. And I think initially we were like a bit annoyed, kind of the classic Canadian syndrome of like, oh, everything has to include the US. But I think in hindsight, it proved to be one of the most helpful shifts to our book project because it it gave us a comparative case to look at both quantitative and qualitative data.
00:18:35
Speaker
that then sharpened our abilities conceptually and theoretically to then explain what's happening in Canada by virtue of comparing with the United States. So that was never our intention at the outset, but i think in hindsight, we're really glad we did that. And it's actually opened up a much broader audience, both among scholars and kind of lay folk to interact with this work and understand both countries better too.
00:18:58
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's also that as Canadians, we like to think of ourselves as quite distinct from Americans. But in reality, there's there is usually more similarities than differences. And in this case, amongst the non-religious populations in both countries, there are a lot of similarities.
Nonpartisan Views in Religious Sociology
00:19:13
Speaker
And so that also helped us, you know, there are some few distinctive aspects, but it helped us kind of better understand, yeah, what was going on in Canada, what was distinct and what was shared with, like, say, a different national context like that of the U.S. Mm-hmm.
00:19:27
Speaker
you've both brought up ah being nonpartisan and unbiased in when when researching and presenting research on this issue. Why is that so important, especially with this particular issue?
00:19:41
Speaker
It comes probably back to us that that training we had in sociology. I mean, listen, it's never perfect, right? There's always going to be like researchers have a background. They have certain ways of thinking that is going to impact often what they choose to research, kind of what the focus is, right? Like if I was a different person, I'd be studying Buddhism, but I'm not. So I'm studying non-religion because that's kind of from my own personal interest as well. um But that being said, i think in our, at least our tradition of sociology, and Joel, you correct me if I'm wrong, um it's kind more classic tradition where you you can't be fully unbiased, but you're aiming to be. It's like an ideal that you're aiming. You're trying to kind of take a step back and have a look at everything, all the data you can access. And that's why it's important to have different sources of data, because they kind of give you different angles of the phenomenon that you want to study.
00:20:33
Speaker
and And try and kind of get a sense of, well, what's actually happening in the field, right? Like what's actually going on as best as we can determine it and not necessarily just from kind of one viewpoint. um I mean, it's always an imperfect situation.
00:20:48
Speaker
You know, we're human, so it's never a perfect process. There's always some some some bias that seeps in, but you you try and do it as much as possible. Because again, the idea is to be informative, right, to all audiences that are interested, not just one on a certain side of the political spectrum or of a certain type of person. And so trying to to get a sense of, you know ah you know, I'm someone who believes there is a reality.
00:21:11
Speaker
and and And you try and get a sense of what that is as best as you can, right? And use with the tools that you have access to. So that was kind of always my approach. And so, and and these days, i think it's more that we feel the need to say that we're nonpartisan, because now, especially, you know, again, English-speaking Canada is kind of focused more on the U.S., A lot of what used to be less biased reporting in the mainstream media is now kind of on either side of the political spectrum. So I feel now it's there's a greater need to just kind of mention, be like, hey, by the way, I'm not necessarily coming from a certain
Sociology's Role in Bridging Perspectives
00:21:45
Speaker
viewpoint here. I'm trying to get ah a kind of sense of the whole that's going on.
00:21:50
Speaker
I think one of the public and social goods that sociology can offer society more generally is ah to help people to think carefully and deeply about a range of topics where a lot of people have a lot of opinions and perspectives. um Sometimes, maybe even oftentimes are are uninformed, are are guided by passion, emotion, experience. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with any of those things, but I think one of the contributions a nonpartisan approach can take is it can help people, to help train people in some respects as part of being kind of a a good citizen, if you will.
00:22:26
Speaker
to take a step back from their own perspective, to try to understand another person's perspective. And I think for me, especially coming from a a religious background and context of which I'm like regularly part of religious groups and I study religious groups and so forth in an ongoing way, um I can see all the problematic ways in which they think about and describe other groups. And that's concerning for me as an insider to religious groups and say, no, actually here's some things and that could hopefully soften the edges and understand other human beings as human beings who have different experiences and perspectives and so forth. So i think it's another sort of important piece.
00:23:05
Speaker
I think that's ah those are both such great answers and just really reflective of what we're trying to do with Humanist Canada and you know reaching across the aisles, trying to find more people who are interested in talking about the world the way that it is and what we can do about it to to help everybody, not just the people in our in-groups.
00:23:26
Speaker
ah So I really appreciate that ah that thread running through ah both of your answers.
Key Findings on Generational and Regional Differences
00:23:32
Speaker
ah when When you did the book, i mean, did this when you did the studies that went into the book, and then when you put the book together you know in in its ah final form, I'm not sure if you guys plan to do another edition someday or not, ah but what were some of the findings in the book? And were there any findings in particular that surprised you?
00:23:51
Speaker
Yeah, i I'll add a few things in terms of core findings and some surprises, and then maybe Sarah will will add on to that. um And we talk a lot about what we call the generational effect or stages of decline, that we've seen some consistent shifts across generations in terms of religious beliefs and practices, and we try to capture what that means and doesn't mean.
00:24:12
Speaker
um We talk about... but was often referred to as the spiritual but not religious group. And there's a lot of attention to that, even in popular media, sort of this is the the new biggest group. And even if someone says they have no religion, they're probably spiritual but not religious. So we we test that claim, we look at some of the data, and ah we demonstrate that perhaps this group is not as large as many people assume. It's still a significant group and part of the religious nun group that we shouldn't forget. But I think that's that's part of the the discussion.
00:24:42
Speaker
um We talk a lot about the role that socialization plays. We know that family is perhaps the single greatest influencer over a person's religious or non-religious beliefs and practices over the course of their lifetime. And so we we spend time both from the quantitative data where you can track these things across generations, but then from the stories and interviews to see ah the concrete ways in which religion or non-religion is passed on within the home and and what that that means in particular.
00:25:11
Speaker
I think a few maybe surprising things or things that stood out, at least for me and and Sarah play some different things here, but um the role that regional and national variations play. So if you grew up in a certain part of Canada or the United States that is particularly devout, um think of like the deep South in the U S think of maybe the Maritimes in Canada. What's it like to say that you have no religion or specifically to identify as atheists within those contexts that your experiences are very different than if you grew up in say British Columbia, the Pacific Northwest as an atheist or non-religious person, uh, versus someone who's part of a religious tradition. So i think that certainly stood out to me was, was quite significant.
00:25:58
Speaker
Uh, and maybe the other thing in related, is the perceptions that different religious groups have toward one another. And so we devote a whole chapter to, to look at some of those things whereby,
00:26:09
Speaker
um Atheists and evangelicals in particular, in both Canada and the United States, tend to have fairly negative views toward one another. And there's all kinds of assumptions and biases and perceptions and experiences that come into play there.
00:26:25
Speaker
And I think that's a really important piece, again, in our attempt at a nonpartisan approach is what does this mean for social and civic society when you have these two groups that have very strong views about the world and about the other?
00:26:39
Speaker
ah for then interacting with groups, whether this is your neighbor or a coworker, um or through the many different social institutional spaces in life that I think it's concerning on one hand, the strong negative views, um and the ways in which they interact. And so we we try to chart out some of those perceptions, where do they come from, what feeds into that?
00:26:59
Speaker
And how do they actually experience life?
Family Influence and Challenges of Disaffiliation
00:27:02
Speaker
yeah, there's a few things, Sarah, I'm sure some other things to add. Yeah, no, all those were those were findings that really interested me. I think kind of back to the socialization piece, I mean, it's really fascinating because everyone has their own bio biographies, their own stories about their life experiences. um And but as a sociologist, what always fascinated me is is that even through those life stories or when you speak to people or when you look at their kind of their their characteristics through statistics, in my case, you start to see that there's actually some commonalities behind their experiences that sometimes they're aware of, sometimes they're not so much. You know we talk about the importance of socialization. So for a lot of people, for example, who disaffiliate from a religion, who leave a religion at some point, they often have their own individual narrative of how that happened.
00:27:51
Speaker
But if you look at them, you take a step back and you look at them as kind of like ah a group and what they share in common is there's actually a lot of common ah threads through those through those experiences. So, for example, often someone who leaves religion, sometimes they're leaving a context that they were a quite religious context where they're very involved with the group and and they left. and And that is often a different experience because they, they you know, they have to, their families and friends will sometimes leave. not be happy with the fact that they've left the religious group. And so they have to kind of almost establish new social networks. They have to kind of get new friends because they can't hang out with their old friends because their old friends are still tied to the religious group. um But a lot of people who leave religion in Canada, especially, are people who are actually coming from what we call kind of weaker religious socialization backgrounds. So religion was sort of present In the family, in the home, maybe they went once in a while ah to ah to a religious service, but it's not usually that strong. And so they that's the group that you get more leavers, more disaffiliates from that background um than you do from the kind of strong or strong religious socialization background, you using these kind of sociological terms here. um Also, the fact that a lot of people leave at a certain point in their lives in their late teens or early adulthood. Again, not everyone, but as a trend, usually if you're going to leave a religion, it usually, not always, but usually happens in your late teens or early adult years. kind of And also usually tied into other life transitions, right? You're leaving your parental household, you're moving out, you're going to maybe university or college, or you're getting ah your first job, your first proper career job. You've got your own place, hopefully. i don't know. with the yeah It's getting later and later with younger generations, but hopefully you got your own place. You're meeting new people, you're forming new relationships. And that's often a time that, say, if you if you decide to leave a religion, it often happens around that life phase, right? And so that's really fascinating, right? Because everyone has their own way of explaining what happened, but there's kind of these shared trends or shared pathways that are out there that you only kind of see once you put everyone's story together.
Changing Patterns in Religious Socialization
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah. I think it's a classic example of why members of religious traditions could benefit from this kind of book, because oftentimes in religious context, they'll assume that, well, if someone's walked away from their religious upbringing, for example, Or even if they haven't been raised in a religious tradition and they encounter some crises in their life that they'll inevitably turn to religion.
00:30:23
Speaker
And I think one of the claims we make with a fair bit of data in the book is that if you grow up with no religious socialization or a weaker form of religious socialization. um it's less likely that people will then turn to religion for these kinds of things later on in life that we have to remember that we're socialized into a religious world or vocabulary, just like we might be socialized out of it.
00:30:45
Speaker
But this isn't necessarily an innate thing that people just suddenly wake up and like, I have all this trouble in my life. And now I'm going to turn to God when you don't have a vocabulary or social environment. so I think these are the kinds of cross pollinating worlds and conversations we're trying to help through the data and through the interpretation of that data.
00:31:05
Speaker
Yeah, because Joel and I, um when we were being trained, there was kind of like one big name in the Canadian sociology of religion field that we were both criticizing, but also, you know, looking up to, but also criticizing. And that was Reginald Beebe's stuff. So reggiegie Reg was great sociologist of religion, still around, still with us. And he did a lot of books on the Canadian religious landscape. He ran a lot of surveys. He had a lot of great information. But he had this at the time, at least when I was in grad school, his recent books had been kind of focused on this hope or or expectation that a bunch of people were going to come back to church who had previously left, um that there was going to be a big revival at some point, that, you know, we churches just had to kind of change a few little things and everyone was going to come back or big numbers were going to come back. I think both Joel and I kind of, well, we sort of built our careers. but We started our careers, at least, pushing back against that narrative, saying like, no, well, a lot of people now are just completely removed from religion.
Critiques of Religious Disappearance Assumptions
00:32:03
Speaker
And when you are you know, you don't even think about like, it's not even in your world of possibility.
00:32:09
Speaker
It's so far removed. And so it was kind of how we and that was part of where we started our work as well. And so you see that reflected in the book as well. Mm hmm. And I think that that, um if I can say that, that hope that he was expressing that people were going to come back to to religion, there was going to be a revival. that I've seen the other side of that hope expressed too. And a lot of the folks who followed the the new atheist writers who were saying, oh, like eventually all religions are going to be gone and it's going to happen very soon. And then the world's going to be great ah because all the problems are going to go with it, which, ah
00:32:44
Speaker
i have How did that turn out? Well, um you know, it doesn't seem to be supported by the data, if I could say that. ah And partly because I think if people leave a religion behind and then don't, you know, don't find a ah corresponding moral framework that includes some kind of reciprocity with their community or supporting others or care for the out group or whatever.
00:33:10
Speaker
Well, I'm not really sure they're any better off than they were beforehand. Might even be worse
Fostering Compassion Through Understanding Disaffiliation
00:33:14
Speaker
off. So, ah and we see that like, there's a number of the wealthiest people in the world who I don't believe would be categorized as any sort of religious ah tradition, but are like ah objectively some of the worst people to have ever existed and are causing a ton of social problems. So clearly that's not ah a hypothesis that's being played out around us. um But I did also really appreciate how you you pointed out that the data and ah and a frank and accurate assessment of the data and seeing what's actually out there can be a way to not only bridge divides, but help create understanding. ah Joel, you're mentioning, ah ah well, you both mentioned people who maybe had left religion and then there was some animosity towards them or there was loss of relationship, loss of community. And and you know what comes ah what comes after that? Well,
00:34:05
Speaker
If people who are still in religious communities had an understanding that this is just a part of life journeys that people are going on, and it's not necessarily because they just want to go off and and sin more or something along those lines, that understanding might actually create a bit more compassion and care and maybe help maintain some of those relationships after ah religious disaffiliation.
00:34:31
Speaker
But that's just my my quiet hope. no it's it's It's interesting. I remember, so when Joel and I, after we did the book, we we went on kind of what I call like the tour, as in we went and and talked to different groups about the book and we' were invited to various groups, some non-religious organizations, some more Christian organizations. And amongst the kind of more Christian crowd, I was actually, because I was, you know, i'm I'm very open about the fact that I'm the non-religious one. And and and because, you know, we always share about our backgrounds.
00:35:00
Speaker
And i after we'd give our talk, i kind of we we usually mingle and and hang around so people can come and ask us informal questions. And I was struck by the number of parents who came up to me and their kid had left, you know, their adult child had left the faith group.
00:35:18
Speaker
and And for them, it was like a death in the family, like they the way they were describing it. and And they were almost asking me, like, are they OK? like Like, why did they leave? Are they OK? And it really struck me. I mean, I'm not sure if I answered properly how much I was helpful in that this scenario, because for me, it was such a foreign like I'd never like, of course, they're alive. They're fine. They they seem to be happy. they I'm sure they're doing all right.
00:35:43
Speaker
um But for them, it was like, you know, you can't live a life without faith. And so it was very, very difficult for them. And so, I mean, I hope I brought some comfort, but there was this kind of need in this changing landscape where a lot of people of younger generations are leaving religion or are not in or and had very little exposure to it to begin with. um There is this disconnect sometimes between generations and to kind of maybe bridge that or provide a better understanding was hopefully we we were able to do that a bit with our work here.
00:36:14
Speaker
yeah blind What a profound experience to have those parents come to you with those questions. It was striking. I mean, it's hard because it's that's where you have like two worlds colliding. yeah Like I had never even thought of of it being
Facilitating Religious and Non-Religious Dialogue
00:36:25
Speaker
an issue. right Yeah.
00:36:27
Speaker
Joel, go ahead. Yeah. As I say, it's a reminder of what Dirkheim, a classic sociologist talks about, like religion is eminently social. And these kind of social ties and networks reminds us why sociologists ought to study religion and non-religion. It impacts our social ties, our sense of identity, changes in society around us, that all these things come to the fore. And it's this kind of awkward slash privileged position we're in as scholars, which I actually think does not capture most sociologists where the public actually is paying attention to some of your work and not take that for granted where Now you almost go from being a sociologist to people wanting to be like their psychologist in those moments answering those questions. it's very uncomfortable. And we're really not. Let's be clear. We're not at all psychologists. We're not at all.
00:37:16
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. But you're again in this privileged place that people are sharing their stories and experiences that resonate with some of the research that reminds us this isn't just a bunch of numbers and statistics, which are all helpful and so forth. But It's people trying to make sense of their lives. And what role do we as scholars have to help people toward those ends in light of some of the data and ways of interpreting that data? So it's, yeah, it's kind of an awkward and unique and privileged position to be in.
Personal Narratives of Leaving Religion
00:37:43
Speaker
I can sympathize a very small bit as I'm studying social psychology and people have said, oh, so you going to help a lot of people when you're done. i go, well, I'm not going to help anybody. No, not like a no one's going to lay on my couch and tell me their problems. That's not how this works. and But maybe helping people a little more broadly, like yeah you guys are doing, which I think is a very, ah very neat position to be in. And I've also, you know, Sarah, to to your point about what the parents were saying, I also had people tell me and people I knew after I did, ah you know, did deconvert from religion saying, well, you know, we're very sad for you because we know that you you can't really truly be human without faith. and thought Well, that's an unfortunate perspective ah because ah because i feel a little dehumanized now, yeah obviously, but but also it does limit the closeness in the relationship you can have with someone when that is in between you. Yeah. And I've met non-religious parents as well. Now there's more and more of them as as these kind of generations like millennials become parents whose kids get interested by a certain faith and and who maybe decide to convert. It's not as common a phenomenon, but it's definitely there. And who who freak out just as much, who are are scared, have all these terrible images of religion in their mind, mainly from Netflix cult series, which is like a thing. um and And so are are also, you know, terrified and and and deeply hurt by this decision that their their kids have made. And so it's ah it's hopefully going start to begin to bridge that divide that that's there.
Biases in Religious Studies and Secularization
00:39:15
Speaker
hope So speaking of divides, um I was going to ask if you had anything else to add on ah how you might see religious divides impacting the social scientific study of religion and secularization. And I, i asked this question knowing that there was a, a study that came out recently where ah they were examining but ah you know biases in researchers who study secularization and found that those who were non-religious tended to see evidence for secularization and those who were religious tend to see evidence against secularization, which, yep you know, ah
00:39:53
Speaker
Probably, ah like i'm i'm surprised nobody thought to study that previously because seems bang on to me. ah But yeah, did do you how do you see those divides occurring and and impacting this field?
00:40:06
Speaker
Yeah, I would be naive to think that they're not there, right? I mean, like I said, hopefully, a lot of us are maybe hopefully aware or self-aware of them and are trying not to to be too much impacted by them, but they're definitely present.
00:40:19
Speaker
I mean, you know, just back to what i was saying earlier, the researchers focus on what they're interested in. And so for a long time in Canada, those who studied religion were interested by Christianity because most of them were coming from a Christian background of some kind, And and that's what was very prevalent in society in past generations. um And so you see a lot of that.
00:40:39
Speaker
and And we're either studying Christianity or we're studying other religions or non-religions from the viewpoint of Christianity. There was a lot of ah work like that coming out of the field. And then in the nineteen ninety s when immigration diversified quite a bit more, you know, it started to diversify in the 60s and 70s, but really ramped up in the 1990s. So it came a lot less from Europe and a lot more from other world regions where other religions and Christianity were were much more prevalent. Then suddenly there was in our field in Canada, there was a big explosion of works on religious pluralism. Right. So all this non-Christian diversity, which had been around for longer than that, um but suddenly became the focus of what researchers were interested in. And then more recently, since the 2010s, especially a focus on non-religion as those populations began to grow. So there's this kind of impact of people's own experiences of what's kind of the hot topics as well in the field, what's developing, what's happening.
Religion: Social Construct or Human Trait?
00:41:34
Speaker
But yeah, there's definitely this difference between and it's all it's a fundamental difference of how people understand what religion is. And and I see it a lot. So, I mean, the people who are coming often from a more religious background tend to see religion as like an essential human aspect that's always been there and is always going to be there. It's like quasi biological. And so you can't see a decline of religion. It has to be a change of religion, for example. so the shifts we're seeing now, we're shifting towards more personal spiritualities, but religion is still very much present because it it kind of has to be for those scholars. Whereas amongst non-religion scholars, religion is more seen as a full social construct. And so something that is that is you know cultural, that can be built, but that also doesn't necessarily have to be present depending on the social context. So isn't like a human necessity. And so and they're much more willing to see religious decline then, right? That, oh, it can disappear and we can be replaced by something else. um And I think more recently, I mean, Joel, you and I have both experienced in the last few months, is that um there was a little bit of data coming out of the US and a few European contexts that showed not necessarily an uptick in religion amongst youth, but maybe not as severe declines as we've seen in the past.
00:42:53
Speaker
And in some cases, there's a few reasons for that. and a lot of these young folks hadn't left their parental household yet, so they look more like their parents. There's a lot more religious diversity now amongst these younger groups, and so a lot more Muslim, Sikhs, Hindus in Canada, so you see slightly higher levels of religiosity that way. Um, but suddenly like all the Christian leaders jumped on board and were like, there's a revival happening.
Misinterpretations of Youth Religiosity Trends
00:43:15
Speaker
And I got so many media requests about like, okay, can you, and they assumed like, they'd even asked me, is it happening? They're like, okay, it's happening. Can you speak to it? I'm like, well, it's yeah happening or it's not happening. in the way you think it's happening um Yeah. And it's almost like the journalists I spoke to, the religious leaders I spoke to didn't want to hear that story. So they like moved on to other people. And so it can come into play, right? but On both sides. And so again, it's it's to be self-aware. So you don't get drawn in too much into that, or at least you can discuss the differences. to make people other people aware of them, but also that, you know, just kind of, you know, being, you know, trying to to avoid that minefield as much as you can.
00:43:59
Speaker
Joel, thoughts? Yeah, I mean, the only thing I'll add is that I, i mean, I love the position I'm in as someone who is um really deeply committed to my Christian faith and often interacting with church leaders and So while I do that kind of work and I study Christian congregations in Canada and so forth, when I'm speaking with religious leaders, I hearken back to how Reginald Bibby, he was often described as bad news Bibby earlier on in his career, because in the late 80s and 90s, he was providing all this data that wasn't terribly optimistic for religious communities and groups. And I feel like I'm often... playing that role, even on these recent revival um reports, and even in Canada where church leaders and and media folks are are drawing onto those. So again, I see that nonpartisan role of trying to follow the data and sensible interpretations, which can make it an uncomfortable space because I understand the framework that church leaders are coming from and even the media in some respects on these, um but needing to kind of toe toe the line relative to the data and what is or isn't there.
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah, so some groups want a good news story, but some groups also just like a lot of journalists want a new and different or exciting
Sociology's Impact on Social and Political Understanding
00:45:15
Speaker
story. And sometimes these processes, you know, they span generations. It's like, no, it's still going on. i don't know what to tell you. It's still the same process going on. And and that's not always what what grabs the attention, right?
00:45:30
Speaker
i I was having a conversation with someone ah a few days ago, and the statement came up, if every single person in the world stopped being religious, that wouldn't necessarily mean that all the religions were false. And conversely, if everybody in the world became a member of one religion, it wouldn't necessarily mean that it was true. So what we could say is, then let's just look at what's actually happening and try to figure out what it does mean, and not ah you know not put all of our ah put all of our eggs in one basket, as it were. Yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
and we're we're like and so As sociologists, that that's almost not a question that interests us we're interested in. like well How does it impact other aspects of sociopolitical life and how in turn is it being impacted by you know your sociocultural context? right It's not so much what's true or not, it's it's and how are people interpreting that and what impact is it having on our lives?
00:46:20
Speaker
For a lot of the audiences, it sounds like whether things are true or not, ah is quite salient for them and it's quite important. I understand. Yeah, for sure. Joel, do you ever, and this might not be a fair question. If so, you can just say so. Do you ever catch any heat ah for bringing those messages or doing the work that you do in those, in those contexts? And I have a, you know, I have some sort of reflective sympathy for you in ah an earlier part of my life. um i I was attending Christian conferences to talk about mental health and to, and to talk about, um
00:46:53
Speaker
medication for depression and how it's okay to take medication for depression or anxiety or ah schizophrenia if you were a Christian and getting some heat for bringing those messages. So I understand what it's like to to bring an unpopular message into ah a very passionate context like that. Do you ever catch any heat?
00:47:13
Speaker
ah Yeah, usually it's from my wife. She's like, are you going to like go and tell them anything positive? Because if you're just going the grim reaper of religion, then...
Challenges in Presenting Data to Religious Groups
00:47:21
Speaker
Ellen's got you. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But you know some groups are are certainly, you get some heat. Sometimes it's it's actually not so much on the religious nuns material. It's um if I'm speaking with a more conservative Christian group, they want to know why I've spent time hanging out with the more progressive groups.
00:47:39
Speaker
theological folks and gathering data and vice versa and kind of asking the question, well, are they really Christian on either end of the theological continuum? And then you have some who are view the world in a purely theological or biblical way. So I remember one context, I was speaking in a church on a Sunday morning, and they wanted me to talk about why people are leaving Christian faith. And so I gave all the standard sociological data, and then they open it up for Q&A. And this one um one individual stood up very well intentioned, but basically they said, like, we don't need any more sociology or psychology or any other ologies, we just need more prayer and Bible and people will remain in the church and we'll come back. And I mean, as a sociologist, it, it, it reminds us of the worldviews that people draw on that we normalize and naturalize and, So I guess on one, in some respect, I'm taking heat for what I've just presented. And I felt bad for the church leaders who invited me in because you could tell they were somewhat flabbergasted that someone would vocalize that in a public context. And yet I understand the framework people are coming from. So yeah, i'm not I'm not afraid of the heat, so to speak. I think this is actually one of the, um it's one of the benefits of being trained in sociology is you're kind of, you're trained
00:48:55
Speaker
to view the world in a certain way and to somehow navigate those different perspectives. Yeah, and it's worth like jumping in here and saying, like I also, i want heat might be a bit strong of a word, but I definitely get asked questions when I'm with non-religious groups, like say Humanist Canada or other other groups, of why I sometimes go and talk to evangelicals, right? That that back to that each other, like the atheist evangelical boogeyman for each other. um Because for them, it's like, why would you go and talk to these like right-wing fanatics? right That's the stereotypes and pictures they have in mind. And well, one, I think it's quite important to speak to different people, groups with different worldviews, yours and theirs included.
00:49:33
Speaker
I obviously only get invited to like the more progressive evangelical groups. right and And on the flip side, the more kind of middle ground, non-religious groups usually.
00:49:43
Speaker
and and And so it's you get the you kind of get the questions on on both sides. I mean, it's not enough to to stop Joel and I or anything. It's
Collaborative Efforts to Counteract Polarization
00:49:53
Speaker
just... right And it's actually sometimes kind of meaningful for me to kind of explain why it's important to actually, you know, bridge kind of, again, speak to both worlds and to kind of and to talk to different groups. Right.
00:50:06
Speaker
Well, for my part, I hope that you keep going ah to those groups. And i i think that's it's so valuable. Overwhelming feedback has always been positive. It's quite rare we get negative pushback.
00:50:18
Speaker
And it especially creates some opportunities. Well, and I think I should probably throw this back to you guys again with our, I think, a last formal question. It creates some opportunities for working together. So um last question I really had for you and on a formal level is what are some ways in which religious and non-religious researchers and academics and activists maybe can work together for the betterment of our our shared society? I'm asking this in a context where there's an awful lot going on in the world. We're recording this on a Wednesday and who knows what Thursday is going to bring.
00:50:54
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i think we've, demonstrated over this conversation, and we probably never would have thought this a decade ago, and we started collaborating on some of this kind of stuff, but we just are firmly committed to the importance of doing these kinds of um collaborations, of of bringing different social locations together of religious, non-religious backgrounds, whereby we have different questions we're interested in the things we're attentive to, and and so forth. the The sociological training can really help in this regard.
00:51:23
Speaker
We talk about a concept in in the book of ah homophily, the idea that when you gather with others who are similar to yourself, you you tend to view the world in a similar way. And this is part of what is amplifying some of the polarized narratives across groups, a lot of perceptions that we know shape realities and and attitudes and behaviors. So I think um doing these kinds of things is is really important, disseminating these things in the different contexts. So it's not just doing the research together, but it's actually coming together and having conversations in the the different religious and and non-religious contexts, I think is is really ah important as well.
00:52:01
Speaker
And i think it it helps to dispel some of the polarization narratives as well. So, I mean, yes, polarization is there. It's present in the media. We see it in the data and so forth, but it's not the only storyline.
00:52:14
Speaker
There's a lot of really great examples whereby members across different religious and non-religious traditions, come together in in peaceful coexistence. They're serving along one side alongside one another and in different social initiatives, etc.
00:52:30
Speaker
And I think modeling that as researchers, but also gathering data that helps to share and tell those stories can be a really helpful part of bringing those dynamics together. And so one of our colleagues here in Canada, Lori Beeman, and a number of her research initiatives has helped to also, I think, model and demonstrate that and and some of her research findings and the different events and initiatives that bring groups together as a a good example. So yeah, those would be a few thoughts I had, maybe Sarah's things to add. Yeah, no, agreed. And and I think it's it's and very crucial for researchers from different backgrounds to work together because we all have our blind spots, right? When you're you're in that in that social environment that, you know, you see certain things, you don't see others, you think a certain way, you don't think another way. And so when people from those different backgrounds or different environments work together, you can kind of make up for each other's blind spots and kind of get a new new understanding of what's going on. Also, you know, we all have assumptions of certain things where kind of compensate this. A person from different background might not have that same assumption. And yeah, like like Joel says, I mean, polarization and differences get a lot of media attention at the moment because that's what the clickbait, that's what makes the news. But in reality, there's a lot of similarities and a lot of shared experiences. you know, there's some differences, of course, but there's also a lot of shared values and a lot of instances of just kind of everyday getting along and and working together or or doing what we need to do to to live together. And that doesn't get as much attention, right? But it's almost as important, if not more important, and and definitely important to get that message across as well, right? To kind of Yes, push back. Obviously, some polarization is there, but also push back that it's everywhere because it isn't necessarily. i ah
00:54:12
Speaker
I think it's great that one of the what of the central kind of threads for this whole conversation has has not been, you know, ah trying to find out who's right or wrong, trying to prove a point, but just trying to do good work.
00:54:27
Speaker
ah the way you were trained to do as effectively as you can and gain insights about our weird little species. um it's ah's It's a privilege to be able to do that kind of work.
00:54:39
Speaker
And um I can speak for myself. and I think I can speak for ah those of us at Humanist Canada. We're very grateful to the two of you for doing this kind of work. because it gives insights into our our species and into where we've been and also where we might be going. And hopefully we can go there together ah in in a good way.
Book and Music Recommendations
00:54:59
Speaker
ah So the the book is None of the Above, and ah we'll have a link to it in the show notes. We're really hoping that our listeners will go check it out. it's I think it's very accessible for non-academics.
00:55:13
Speaker
um And give some really good insights into what's been going on. um I have one final question, but I did also want to give a correction to ah to one of the episodes that you and I did, Sarah, which is now a year and a half ago.
00:55:31
Speaker
and We were talking about millennials and about Gen Z, and you made a joke about avocado toast, which is like the millennial thing. Did you make a joke about it? i think Are you blaming me for this? no no no i made the mistake because the the avocado toast is the millennial thing which is what you said and then and then i said i don't know what de gen zers do but i've been watching online i think they put something different on their toast think it's birria and we just moved on now i actually meant burrata oh burrata is ah i still don't know what that is birria is a like mexican uh
00:56:07
Speaker
flavored meats, usually okay for lamb, which is obviously not what's going on toast. Burrata is a cheese made from a mix of mozzarella and cream. And it is going on toast a lot these days. Sounds good.
00:56:18
Speaker
Maybe for the Gen Zers. I would highly recommend a throwback to French Canadian Tortiera on toast. That's my favorite. That is my all-time lunchtime favorite. And it it gives you a nice boost of protein. It's cheap to make. And it tastes like good old classic Canada. or french Well, canada that is a that is a recommendation. And now we we've made that correction. Let never be said that Humanist Canada, we don't acknowledge our mistakes.
00:56:44
Speaker
We wanted to end by asking the question that we've been trying to ask most episodes this year. From each of you, what is one book and one band you might recommend?
00:56:55
Speaker
Joel? Sure. Yeah, sure. One book. Recently read a book by Hartmut Rosa, who's a sociologist, a German sociologist titled The Uncontrollability of
Closing Remarks and Thanks
00:57:06
Speaker
the World. And it's just a tiny book that follows two very lengthy books where his central argument is that ah our quest in modern society is for greater control in all aspects of our life and social institutions. And his thesis is that The more that we try to control everything around us, the more more miserable our lives are because we realize that there's so many things that are beyond our control, whether it's, well, we see it all around us, globalization, social institutions, et cetera. Wait, can I make a Star Wars reference? So the tighter we you c clench your fists, Moff Tarkin, the more systems will slip through your fingers. yeah
00:57:45
Speaker
There was an excellent, excellent connection there. ah Favorite band? I'm a drummer. I've played drums since from a young age. And when I was in junior high, sort first learning to play, I was introduced to you two And so the band U2 has forever shaped my my listening. One of the first concerts I ever attended in Winnipeg was U2. And so I often listen to them, love the drumming, love the concerts, the experience, sort of their different messaging and and so forth, very raw and real to different half aspects of human life. So U2 is the band I would i would put out there.
00:58:24
Speaker
Classic. classic I mean, a good book I've read recently. I read Kevin Flatt's new book. So Kevin is a scholar, a colleague at Redeemer University. His book came out just last December. It's called Secularization, Social Order and World History Toward a Global Perspective. And he does a great job of kind of instead of taking secularization as like a progress, it has to happen because we're revolving this way ah narrative, which I don't see much evidence for it in the data, neither does he. He instead kind of traces the cultural and power dynamics tied to the what he calls the secular social order. So this idea of thinking about the world in a secular way, where that comes out of obviously of the enlightenment and of but also of the British Empire and how it kind of spreads throughout the world not in a kind of like quote unquote natural way but through power dynamics through colonialism and kind of really shapes how we think about the world and and and is shared or not shared across different parts of the world and so it's really a really fascinating kind of mini world history at the same time of the last few hundred years that I really enjoyed. um I'm not a huge band person. I saw Car de Pirate, who's ah a Quebec band ah group many years ago at Macy Hall in Toronto. um That's about it. I don't go to concerts that often. It was a great concert. They're a great band. I was actually joking to shift it towards a sports recommendation because Joel and i you know, we connect over our work, but we also connect over our love of Formula One and Grand Prix racing. And so we're both huge F1 fans. Joel goes and sees the Montreal race like pretty much every year now with his partner and wife, Helen. um And so, I mean, if someone's looking for her for something to watch on the weekends, that's definitely a good one from us.
01:00:16
Speaker
Well, I'm not much of a fan. fan, ah watcher. i I understand the cars go very fast. They go very fast. And that's quite exciting. in In those circles. And it's really exciting.
01:00:32
Speaker
ah i I am also Code de Pirate fan. I have listened to them ah for for a little while now, and i I think that their music is beautiful and moving. It's lovely. And has lots of wonderful Canadian references, too, which is don't always hear in most of our music coming from the US or the UK, right?
01:00:50
Speaker
Yeah, I don't always ah catch all of them. Ma phrase est très petite. think she complains about Pearson at some point, which we can all understand. like, oh, I'm still waiting at Pearson. It's like we're on the traffic on the 401. It's like, yes, I i connect with that.
01:01:05
Speaker
ah On a deeply spiritual level, i know if I can say that. On a deep level. and in that And on that note, and in ah in the spirit of our shared hatred of Toronto's airport, ah thank you both for coming on the show. It's been great to have you, and I look forward to more work in the future. Thanks, Daniel.
01:01:25
Speaker
Thanks, Daniel. and
01:01:30
Speaker
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01:01:49
Speaker
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