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Episode 18 - An Interview with Steve Ghikadis & The Naked Pastor, David Hayward
76 Plays2 months ago
The Naked Pastor - David Hayward is a former pastor, turned artist who explores themes of authenticity and personal freedom through his paintings and drawings. If you’re interested in deconstruction, spiritual exploration, or discovering your true self, you’re invited to join him on his journey. The name "NakedPastor" symbolizes his commitment to expressing the unvarnished truth, no matter how vulnerable it may feel. After leaving the pastoral role, he has spent over a decade creating art and fostering freedom within the community.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
It is possible, but you have to silence hate and violence. You have to. There's no other way.
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:20
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens. Welcome to the conversation.
Interview with David Hayward, The Naked Pastor
00:00:39
Speaker
In today's episode, our own Steve Giacattis sits down with the naked pastor David Hayward, who is a former pastor turned an artist who explores themes of authenticity and personal freedom through his paintings and drawings. The name naked pastor symbolizes his commitment to expressing the unvarnished truth, no matter how vulnerable it may feel. Let's begin.
00:01:07
Speaker
You are listening to Humanism from the Heart, a segment that focuses on prominent voices in the overall Canadian community. I'm your host, Steve Ducatis, and today on the program, we're speaking to the naked pastor, David Hayward. I assure you, he is fully clothed as we speak to him now. He is a former pastor turned artist who explores themes of authenticity and personal freedom through his paintings and drawings. If you're interested in deconstruction, spiritual exploration, or discovering your true self, you're invited invited to join him on his journey.
00:01:35
Speaker
The name Naked Pastor symbolizes his commitment to expressing the unvarnished truth, no matter how vulnerable it may feel. After leaving the pastoral role, he has spent over a decade creating art and fostering freedom within the community. Welcome, David. Thanks for joining me today. Thank you. Thanks for having me on your show and hello to all all your listeners. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. um So what's with the name Naked Pastor?
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's usually the first question.
Origin of 'Naked Pastor'
00:02:02
Speaker
have So I chose the I chose the name Naked Pastor when I was actually a pastor, I left the ministry in 2010. But I, I started a blog in 2005. And I decided to call myself the Naked Pastor because at that time, ah the Naked Chef, um Naked Archaeologist, Naked Truth, all those things were popular and thought, you know, I wanted to
00:02:30
Speaker
sort of pull back the curtain, the veil on what's really going on in the church and in the life of a pastor and. ah So I was gonna be completely honest, raw, real, transparent, vulnerable. And so I thought it was the perfect perfect name, Naked Pastor. Of course, it's it's gotten me into a lot of trouble, but you know it's it's here to stay now because it's you know ah it's become a brand. I didn't expect that, but it's quite popular. My cartoons go everywhere. And so i'm you know I think I'm stuck with it.
00:03:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. and And I love the name, and I think it's completely fitting. um I can see how you maybe get a little bit of pushback from the religious community because, you know, yeah a lot of times it's like modesty is a thing, so covering up, right? I mean, here nakedness is the opposite of that, so. Yeah, well, not just the religious community, but people who are critical of the religious community as well, because, you know,
00:03:26
Speaker
You know, with the problems and I, you know, different denominations or the Roman Catholic Church with, you know, ah pedophilia and yeah among the priests and and all this kind of thing. It just to some people it feels inappropriate and so makes a suggestion, you know, so ah you know i'm I'm very quick to explain the the real meaning of the name because I do think it has value and and you know i I do think it's a good name, but I do want to be clear. It's about me being honest about myself and what I see going on in religion and in the church.
00:04:02
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. and i And I love the comparison that you you just you just mentioned there to to the real world and how that that fits in. So no, that's that's a perfect name for it. um So when you started your deconstruction journey, um and where would you say that you're at right now with regards to your
David's Journey of Deconstruction
00:04:18
Speaker
belief? Like what started that journey and where are you now? Well, it started my my deconstruction journey. And deconstruction for me is a ah word I use. you know We borrowed borrow it from um Derrida, the French philosopher,
00:04:32
Speaker
who invented the word to describe questioning everything right down to the roots. And um so ah that began for me way back when I was graduating from seminary as a young man. And when I started questioning the Bible as inspired,
00:04:51
Speaker
you know uh as ah some kind of a sacred book that descended out of heaven and all that so that was ah really the beginning of my deconstruction journey to the point where i left the ministry in 2010 because i i no longer felt i could continue my own personal journey inside the confines of the church i mean up to that point You know, I'd serve the church for decades as a pastor and always gravitated towards churches where I felt there was freedom for me to grow in the way I felt I needed to grow or wanted to grow, but I eventually found the um line I could no longer cross. and And the only way I could continue my own personal journey was by leaving the institution or the organization that we call the church.
00:05:46
Speaker
right and And thanks so much for sharing all that because I i feel like um I can hear in your voice that you know it was a big step. It wasn't something that you just jumped into one day. It was a lot of thought and a lot of care was put into that. um When you were going through that process, or I guess you're still kind of in that process, but um are you experiencing any kind of discomfort or fear at all?
Questioning Beliefs – A Traumatic Process
00:06:08
Speaker
Oh my, when I first left the ministry, you know, any anybody, on I'll start over. For anybody questioning their beliefs, it's always unsettling, at least. It's always unsettling, at least. And for some of us, it can be traumatic because um our whole
00:06:28
Speaker
worldview is invested in what we believe. And so for religious people, and this is not news to your listeners, I'm sure, but for religious people where your whole worldview has been concocted or or in created, um built on these beliefs, when those beliefs are questioned,
00:06:51
Speaker
ah It's like I compare it to a Jenga block tower, where you take out one of the blocks at the bottom and the whole tower starts to, you know, waver back and forth. And for me, it not only wavered back and forth for a while, but it eventually crumbled because everything I believed hinged upon the truth of the bible the Bible. It depended on the Bible being true, and if the Bible wasn't necessarily true historically, etc., then ah it it caused a huge ah sort of a seismic shift in my brain that was very dramatic. On top of that, I was in the ministry, so I had to continue teaching week to week,
00:07:36
Speaker
and Not only that, but when we left the ministry, we had we left the church at the same time. That was back in 2010. For my wife and I, Lisa and I, ah that's all we'd ever really known. and so we were ru well We thrust ourselves really into the world where we had to learn how to be sort of just real humans for a change outside of the support and the structure of and and the meaning of of the church and Christianity. So yeah, it can be very traumatic on so many levels.
00:08:14
Speaker
Yeah, for
Loss and Rebuilding of Community
00:08:15
Speaker
sure. And i I come across this a lot because I am a ah volunteer as well for recovering from religion. So I hear this a lot as well, where people will come with with their deconstruction or a deconversion journey. Now, with recovering from religion, the main goal is not to deconvert anyone. It's just to be there kind of as ah an ear to listen or you know a hand to hold on to as you're maybe expressing some doubts and and some disbelief. and And it seems like that's the type of journey that you were on. um and And the cool part about Humanist Canada, what we're trying to do is we're trying to create that type of community that churches have kind of had the monopoly on for so long. You know, then there's there's there's there's churches out there that like,
00:08:54
Speaker
the main reason people attend is because they have that community and they have someone saying, how's your mom? How's your dad's back? That type of thing. And, and we're trying to create that type of community so that we can have, um, people like yourself or people that are expressing those, those doubts and even getting to the point where the, their, their belief system has actually crumbled and we can help them pick up the pieces and and basically be there for them, uh, on the other side. That's so important and necessary because in my observation, I, I,
00:09:23
Speaker
I'm involved in people's lives every day. And I have an online community I call the Lasting Supper where we help guide people through that whole deconstruction process. And I think my observation, my own experience is the biggest pain point is the the feeling of the loss of community.
00:09:43
Speaker
and uh it's it's devastating for so many people and you know it's not just a religious thing i'm noticing many adults in in you know my life uh who aren't even religious or haven't been religious and never went to church or haven't been to church in a long time they struggle with friends like friendship and and finding community and the my opinion is that the church has a corner on the market and forming community immediately. I mean, you can walk into church and immediately you've got things to do, people to know, friends, they support people, you know, potlucks, activities, and even um ah commonality and ah
00:10:29
Speaker
um meaning, all those things. And all all in one package. it's It's really remarkable. I mean, there are problems that come with that. But ah there's really nothing else out there that, um you know, rivals that in my opinion. So yeah, I'm trying online to build communities where it's just that where we offer a ah safe space for people to find, explore and be their most authentic selves and without being corrected or criticized or judged or whatever. you know So yeah, I think that's a great project.
00:11:09
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. know I mean, we're a long way from achieving that. that's That's something that's going to be a work in progress for quite a long time. um But I appreciate you doing that on your end as well. You know, like prominent voices within the community, being able to set up that type of thing is very important for people's recovery and and even just to be to be welcomed ah to a group. and and And like you said, and you probably know just from your own experience from moving there halfway across the country or across the country, um you had a place to go because you already had established OK, this is my denomination. I can now just go and go to that denomination, you know, out east and that type of thing. So um I'm just going to shift the gears a little bit here and I want to just talk about get it into what you are currently working
Art as a Tool for Justice and Equality
00:11:51
Speaker
on. And I just want to say your art is amazing. Everything I see online and and I and it's constantly popping up in my feed and I'm just like, oh, wow, I can't believe, you know, you're able to to create such beautiful pieces of art. And every time it pops up, I'm like, oh, David's at it again.
00:12:06
Speaker
So I just want to ask you, what is your favorite piece of art that you've created so far? Oh, my gee. um Well, I got my hand in many different genres, anything from stone sculpture to cartoons. So anywhere from the silly to hopefully the poignant and um but I drew a cartoon a while ago that I think it's probably my one of my most popular and I call it overturning and it's a ah drawing of of Jesus, um whether or not you think he's a historical figure. um It's a drawing of Jesus ah with his hands in the air and tables flying and coins flying everywhere. And it's taken from the story and in one of the gospels where Jesus
00:12:58
Speaker
overturns the tables of the money changers in the temple because my opinion is that they were exploiting the poor and so that that image to me is very popular especially right now and a lot of people are are loving it right now and because I think The times we're in requires us to stand up for something, stand up for and justice and ah peace. And, you know, I don't mean to sound cheesy, but love and um equality and all those things. So that's what I'm about. My cartoons and everything are about.
00:13:40
Speaker
you know, equality for LGBTQIA, women, other races, you know, ah the young, the old, you know, beliefs. In my opinion, the healthiest community is a diverse one. And so if we can create these communities where diversity is allowed um and encouraged,
00:14:06
Speaker
I think we're onto something. And so my art, my cartoons and my paintings and all those things are really um trying to encourage that to happen. Yeah, and I and i think you nail it really well with with all that stuff. and and um And I totally agree with you that the adverse culture and and community is what we're we're aiming for. I really like that art piece you have. I think it's Jesus picking up a sheep and it's ah a trans flag color on the sheep. And he's basically saying you belong. And I love that. Any type of that type of, um art and imagery um really hits me in the heart and don't worry about being cheesy this segment is actually called humanism from the heart so it's all about yeah well it's all about you know diversity and and you say you say you love it and some people want to kill me for that kind of yeah and right it's it's it's very divisive but some people think it's very you know false and political and all that and and so it's it's quite an interesting
00:15:01
Speaker
Time. It is, and I want to get into that. um I'm just going to ask one more question in between. But before I get to that, um I have an upcoming interfaith symposium. So I've been the humanist slash atheist speaker for two pre or two previous ah symposiums, interfaith symposiums, and it's hosted by the Ahmadiyya Muslim Students Association at the university here.
00:15:22
Speaker
um And I'm sure at some at some point there is a goal where they're trying to convert people and that's why they're putting on these things. But I'm always take it in a nuanced way and I try and approach it from, you know, collaboration effort or a community effort like let's get everyone talking and everyone working together. It's not a debate format. It's actually more of like a you know, speak on the pursuit of happiness from a humanist perspective, speak on it from a Christian perspective and from an atheist or from a yeah Muslim perspective and a Hindu perspective. And I find I was really shocked because the first couple I thought for sure I was going to get nailed during the question and answer period because, you know, they're like, oh, atheist and this, that and the other. But it was actually the religious people that had to shield a lot of the questions. And I was and I was shocked by that. But I think it's because the community in general is shifting to more of a non-religious
00:16:13
Speaker
um ah outlook and they're just asking questions like well how can you believe this stuff and and how can you believe that and and I think that what you're doing is you're kind of acting as a medium for people to whether they're on the path of of getting to the point where they're deconverting or or deconstructing um or they're in their in their original beliefs and they're and they're strengthening their beliefs, I think there's an offering for everybody there. Like you were saying, it's it's just there's so much art and and and art can speak to you in any way you want it to, kind of like the Bible, right? You can you can pick up pick things out of it that you think um go along with your your ideas and and your your goals. But yeah, I think that that's where your art is speaking to so many people. um And I do want to get into the the negative
00:17:00
Speaker
um things you're hearing about that too. um but But I want to know first, what other artists ah do you find to be inspiring or appealing to your tastes? ah Right now, um like the the kind
Inspiration from Bold Artists
00:17:15
Speaker
of artists that are capturing my attention are like musicians like Pussy Riot. Okay. You know, is that the one from Russia? Yeah, from Russia. They were in prison for, you know, singing a protest song and a Russian Orthodox Church. Yeah, yeah. I love that kind of ballsy, you know, and good he' that's to overturning tables, in my opinion.
00:17:38
Speaker
And well, they ended up in jail and, uh, but they're still going and Pussy Riot still performing and, um, Nadia is still singing the, you know, she's still the lead singer and everything. So stuff like that. And, and then also Ai Weiwei, he's a living Chinese artist right now who, um, I'm just fascinated by his work, but he's also an in your face, kind of a, a radical kind of a table overturning guy. And,
00:18:08
Speaker
um You know, where he will publish a photograph of him ah giving the finger in front of Trump Tower, for example, you know, okay. And um so that kind of thing inspires me because what I do takes a lot of, I have to um sort of put aside my fear of what's going to happen. Like when I draw something and then post it, like I'm always nervous because I have no idea what's coming and I'm a very sensitive
00:18:41
Speaker
from the heart kind of a guy. yeah and and And I often feel very vulnerable. So, you know, I'm going to get criticism for sure. and And so for the past few weeks, it's been kind of it's been feeling kind of tough. It feels like um ah haters are becoming more and more emboldened and um more and more fundamentalist and more cult-like and so it's it's it feels like in many ways it's getting gary ah scarier there but I cling to like Martin Luther King Jr's words where he said the art
00:19:19
Speaker
of justice is long. And so I just hang on to that. There's good signs that things are changing and progressing. And so I i just kind of hold on to that. But yeah, the the hate is pretty thick and syrupy right now and it's not very pleasant. And I really love that quote. And I think that it's um it's It's very, ah it speaks to where we're at right now. It's almost like the pend the pendulum has swung too too far in one direction. And then it swings back and it just misses the center and keeps going to the other side and it keeps swinging back and forth. And it's just, it's it's kind of a scary yeah situation that we're dealing with on on all sides right now. yeah and and Like they like the just this last week, um
00:20:04
Speaker
the in here in New Brunswick, ah we had ah a victory, in my opinion, where the the liberals won. Like, and I'm not a political guy, but, you know, the the conservative um party was really down on trans people, LGBTQ rights, foreigners, refugees, ah yeah the all kinds of things were going wrong. And ah they were,
00:20:33
Speaker
trounced, like, I mean, heavily defeated, it was a landslide. So that gave me hope that maybe, maybe some things are are changing and people are saying, you know, this isn't right. And yeah, making your decisions, you know, so that that's what I mean by in the middle of feeling like the world's going crazy, that ah there's some bright spots here and there.
00:20:55
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And the saying that, you know, the squeaky wheel gets the grease is kind of like what we're experiencing, right? We're getting all those people who are, you know, maybe their, their side of things is is starting to die out. So they're in their death throes and they're trying to put their voice forward to say, no, we want it to stay this way. um And it's just not happening, right? Like we're we're shifting in a more hope diverse and and and caring community. And I really like to see that happen.
Local vs. Global Recognition
00:21:21
Speaker
um What does your local community in New Brunswick think of your work?
00:21:27
Speaker
I, you know what, what's really, really weird is like I could, anytime I go on a trip, like last time I went on a trip down to but Pennsylvania and I was going through to LaGuardia airport and somebody comes up, are you the naked pastor? You know, so this happened. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, it is cool. And it's fun, but never here. Like I really fly under the radar locally for some reason, which is kind of nice because I don't have people throwing eggs or tomatoes at my house. and So like I really do kind of fly under the radar just once in a while somebody will say you're not the naked pastor Are you in this? I had no idea you lived here. But yeah, so it's uh, you know, I think if my work did get out like my neighbors are all conservative and everything they're very conservative and uh, and and plus the the last church I pastored is in this town and
00:22:22
Speaker
So there's I have a lot of enemies in this area, but I rarely see them. oh And I don't think they watch my work, but like you say, for you, my stuff keeps coming across your timeline or whatever, yeah your newsfeed. and And I know people are seeing it, but fortunately, I'm pretty incognito here.
00:22:44
Speaker
And that's funny because I always talk talk to my kids about that. My son, and and my seven-year-old always wants to be famous. I said, you really don't want to be famous because then you won't even be able to go you know to the local park with without people taking your picture and getting in your way. And and he he's a big fan of Mr. Beast. I said, well, look at Mr. Beast when he went to, um I think it was Mexico when he couldn't even get out of his hotel room because people are swarming the doors and everything. I'm like, you don't want that.
00:23:06
Speaker
I'm like, you know, you you might want your a couple people to recognize you here and there but, and it kind of happens to me too because I'm known as the interfaith family guy because I'm married to a Christian, and I have two kids that were raising in an interfaith household. And I always get people like, Oh, you're that interfaith guy how you make that work. And it's like,
00:23:24
Speaker
i've i said I've said it numerous times on different, you know, podcasts and stuff like that. So it's like, just listen here. And you know, it's a it's a lot to explain. You know, so you know what I wrote a book called till doubt do us part when changing beliefs change your marriage. And it's all about, you know, cool it's all about um what if one person deconstructs and the other doesn't. And and so that's cool that you're you're making it work. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, actually, my i've I've been kind of an atheist my entire life. um And I met my wife. um And she was she was a Christian, but she didn't really she wasn't really out of about her beliefs. It was just kind of a private thing. And then when we were about to have our kids, it was like, oh, yeah, how are we gonna how we're going to raise them? Because you know she didn't realize I was non-religious. I didn't really realize she was religious. And it kind of created an issue. but
00:24:09
Speaker
No, I'm in the middle of writing a book as well. It's probably going to be coming out in January based on on that. It was going to be called midlife musings of a sarcastic secular humanist, but I thought that's way too long. So I'm actually going to call it humanism from the heart, just like the name of this segment, because it's kind of where I'm coming from. So um awesome. Well, if you could go back in time and tell your former self something important, what would that message be? Fasten your seatbelt and wear a helmet.
00:24:38
Speaker
That is apt advice. I ended up dislocating my shoulder recently on a bicycle accident. So it's it's it's ah it's a good good advice for the the the real world and then and and also for the ah ah philosophical world as well. so yeah let's ah Listen, if even five years ago or 10 years ago, somebody would say, you know, your cartoons are going to be known all over the world. I wouldn't have believed them. I would have laughed on their face. And so, yeah, preparing for that,
00:25:07
Speaker
I couldn't prepare for it, but it's, you know, on the one hand, it's it's ah very challenging and scary at times, but I'm having a ball. I'm really having fun. And I know I'm helping people, so that's what matters. I like that advice. I think that's that's great. um What upcoming projects do you have that you're working on that you could tell us about?
Upcoming Children's Book on Diversity
00:25:29
Speaker
I just ah submitted um my 11th book to a publisher. It's all done and it's coming out of May and it's a children's book based on my very popular Rainbow Sheep. It's a story about a rainbow sheep that joins a flock of white sheep.
00:25:49
Speaker
so um i'm very nervous and very excited about it it was one of the most difficult things i've ever done i didn't realize children's books was such a huge serious deal man but uh yeah uh so that's that's what's happening next so uh the big thing i mean i'm going i'm speaking in columbus this coming weekend and stuff like that so uh you know my plate's full and i'm happy so That's awesome. Yeah, that's great. And you know what? My kids are always looking for good new books and um we're also, um my wife and I are both both fully committed to um teaching diversity and making sure that they're understanding of, you know, different people in different places and and different cultures and different religions. And that's just, that'll be a perfect book for my family. So I'm really excited about that. um Is that going to be on your website? Yes, but
00:26:44
Speaker
is being published by um Beaming Books. So it'll be available in bookstores. So, um and we have a real, they have a really good Canadian distributor. So it'll be an Indigo Chapters, Coles, you know, ah for your Canadian listeners and also in all the American bookstores and Amazon as well, so.
00:27:03
Speaker
Oh, that's going to be so great. And you know what? My sister lives in Nova Scotia, so maybe at some point I can slip by and we can get a signature on the book from there or something. but Oh, yeah. Sit over a beer or something. We have some great pubs around here. so Yeah, that'd be so great. That'd be that'll be yeah amazing. We'll definitely have to do that. um What do you think that we can do to unite our different communities? And whether that's on the religious or the political divide, what do you think we can do?
00:27:29
Speaker
Well, i think like I think about that a lot because I think it's necessary. So one of the things that I try to do is I i i just try to be um This is going to sound really cheesy, but I try to be nice. I try to be nice. So I get haters come on and people arguing and and so I don't argue. I don't debate. It's a waste of time, but I try to be nice and gentle and loving and kind and
00:28:04
Speaker
and And you know, but if if somebody's a bully and they don't stop after a warning I'll I delete their I i delete hateful comments and I block hateful people ah and That's my concern these days is it's like you say the squeaky wheel gets the grease That's what's happened to acts in my opinion. That's what's happened to Twitter where um You open the door and say free speech means people can express their hate and, you know, white supremacy and, you know, all this kind of thing. That's me. um Violence and noise always wins because, um,
00:28:52
Speaker
truthful, gentle people are just quiet and unassuming. And, and, you know, and that's, I think X is becoming a terrible, terrible place already is because there's no rules on the play yard. I mean, when I, you know, in, in public school, let's say elementary school, if a bully is not instructed or warned or, um,
00:29:21
Speaker
and you know given boundaries or the the other children are protected, they'll take over. and And so that's what I see happening. And so I think we need to be very careful to do what we can to minimize hateful speech and hateful actions and violence and so on. So that's what I'm trying to do ah because I really do believe ah because I've seen it in my own online community. um I've mentioned it before, The Lasting Supper. um It's been going for 12 years and we've learned the value of holding diversity together um and respecting one another's diversity and differences and uniqueness and distinctives while at the same time um being accountable to one another. It works. It is possible.
00:30:18
Speaker
but you have to silence hate and violence. You have to, there's no other way. yeah So that's my that's my, I believe that if people who are in community can wrestle with this question, how can I be free without violating your freedom? And how can you be free without violating my freedom? If we can wrestle with that dynamic, I think we're on our way to being a healthy, functional community.
00:30:48
Speaker
Yeah, and I 100% agree with that. um I've heard this saying, and and I just, i think I feel like it's so, it just, it it gets to the heart of the issue and it's kill them with kindness. yeah Because the thing is, if you're coming at it from a ah an approach of kindness or you're coming at it with um but with with understanding, or at least least the ability to try and understand, um there's nothing that anyone can do to stop that. There's nothing that anyone can say to put you down.
00:31:17
Speaker
Yes, yes. So you know have you read, um have you read Well, I just read Romeo Delaire's book, The Peace, that just came out this year. And, um you know, he's the one who was in Rwanda during the genocide. I read the Shake Hands with the devil that's the only way think the Devil. Well, this book here is really, really, really good. And his call for peace, it's just very from the heart. And I didn't mean to say that on purpose, but
00:31:51
Speaker
It is from the heart and it's very powerful, powerful book and I hope more and more Canadians read it and more politicians read it and more people around the world read it because he's calling for peace and I think it's possible. I really do think it's possible but it's going to take effort.
00:32:09
Speaker
and commitment to to see it happen. Yeah, for sure. And and it's funny because when when when Putin invaded Ukraine, he made a list of people that he was going to say are banned or barred from coming to Russia, and Romeo Dallaire was on the list, and Romeo Dallaire made a post and he said,
00:32:28
Speaker
He's like, uh, I'm not wanted in Russia by Putin. And he's like, he was like a celebration. It was hilarious. Cause he's like, yeah, I don't want to be associated with people like that. So this is perfect for me. And it's just great perfect kind of sums up where he's coming from. And I love, I love Romeo Dallaire. He's, you know, he, he saw such evils over there and he tried his best to do what was best. And he, his hands were tied and it just, it's so sad to see what he had to go through there. Nearly killed him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:56
Speaker
But his book, is it's he's just such a ah gentle, loving figure. It's almost, um I'd almost say it's like a mystical book.
00:33:09
Speaker
it's ah it's a very It's a very powerful, and you know for your listeners, a very humanist book, absolutely humanist book, and I'm recommending it to everybody, so.
00:33:21
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah. We'll definitely yeah get that out there and hopefully some people will, we'll check into that.
Where to Find David's Work
00:33:27
Speaker
um And also with your own books, that'd be really neat to, yeah you know, we'll, we'll, we'll try and link everything and in the description and and see what we can put on there. Cause it'd be nice for people to be able to see the artwork that I've been describing. um And yeah along with that, where can people find your work?
00:33:45
Speaker
Well, nakedpastor.com, um but I make sure it's one word because if you Google naked pastor, you're gonna see things you can't unsee. Nakedpastor.com and that's my base camp. And so everything, you can find me everywhere from there, but I think my most active place is on Instagram and um it's the safest community at this point. So um yeah, just check check all my places out.
00:34:15
Speaker
Awesome. My books are on Amazon. so Okay, perfect. and And I have seen that people actually can commission like tattoos and and art pieces from your where your website. So that's a really neat thing. And I'm hoping people can go and check that out. I did see the the Jesus turning over the tables. I saw that as a tattoo on somebody, which is really neat. Yeah, that's so cool. so Well, thank you so much for spending the time with us today. And it's been a pleasure talking to you. And hopefully everything goes well for you in the future.
00:34:43
Speaker
and And to you, too, and your family. Thank you so much. Take care, ma'am. All right. See you. Bye. by
00:34:53
Speaker
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