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Episode 27 - Humanist Holiday Special with Daniel Dacombe & Steve Ghikadis
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For this Holiday Special, Humanist Heavy-Hitters Daniel Dacombe and internationally renowned author, Steve Ghikadis, sit down and talk about what it means to be a Humanist these days and share different tips on how to handle particular friends and family during the holidays.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
Sorry, Steve, my cat just jumped up on me. Mine's probably going to do that any minute. Okay. So Jared, I'll have to cut that part up too.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:19
Speaker
Welcome to The Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens.
00:00:35
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello everyone.
Hosts Introductions
00:00:41
Speaker
My name is Daniel Dacombe, and I'm one of the hosts of the Voice of Canadian Humanism podcast. On this podcast, we feature the voices that are involved in, leading, or important to humanism in Canada and beyond. I'm very pleased to be joined by today's guest, author, and also other host of this podcast, Steve Jakadis.
00:01:01
Speaker
So nice to be here. Thanks so much for having me again. Hey, no problem.
First Meeting Story
00:01:05
Speaker
It's good to to see you virtually. We've been seeing each other virtually for, I guess, a couple of years doing different things, calls and then doing a couple of webinars for Humanist Canada and doing some groups. But we actually just this past summer had the opportunity to meet in person for the first time. And that was really nice.
00:01:25
Speaker
Yeah, it was. And we had like the biggest wings in the city. Yeah. they they They say it loose goose there in Windsor, Ontario. So it was kind of cool to have you in my hometown. Yeah, I was excited to be passing through your town. i was glad that it was working out for us to to meet. Really enjoyed the wings. A little nervous about the name of the restaurant, Loose Goose. I had to do a lot of traveling that week with colleagues, and I thought, I don't know if this... I feel a little nervous eating from a place called the Loose Goose before I'm about to spend six hours in a car with a couple of co-workers.
Holiday Challenges
00:01:55
Speaker
and want to tell you this ahead of time, too, but there was a couple of stabbings there, you know but we're we're big, burly guys. I don't think anyone would have challenged us or anything, but... you know Well, i i would rather I would rather that than ah anything else getting too loose while we were doing our travels that week. um But yes, it was great to see you and really nice for me to to meet some people in person who I've been getting to become friends with ah in this new virtual landscape we live in. and So often we you know we know people through Facebook or Instagram or something and we have ah video calls. and
00:02:30
Speaker
ah But actually seeing a human being in person can be can be really nice. And it was nice to to see you in person. Yeah, absolutely. To actually be able to give you a hug instead of just a, you know, a virtual high five or something. It was just really cool.
00:02:42
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, really it really was. And get you to sign my copy of Humanism from the Heart. Right. Which, your first book and one that I really enjoyed. And... um You know, I've got a first signed edition that I'll be putting it up on eBay very soon so I can i can make the big money.
00:02:59
Speaker
I got to get you the sticker because I got a a finalist award for American Writing Awards. Oh, that's right. Congratulations. I'm there now. So, you know, next time I see you, I'll have to get the sticker for you.
00:03:11
Speaker
well i would I would very much like that. ah We're recording this ah in advance of the holiday season, and and we're we're really hoping to have this come out ah before the Christmas holidays, because ah this is an interesting time for a lot of people. There's some challenges. There's some... ah you know, often money troubles or money concerns and sometimes family concerns and sometimes conflict and ah all during a time which is supposed to be ah like a very celebratory holiday. And i think it's good for us to take a step back sometimes and talk about what those challenges can be and how to how to navigate them, and especially for those of us who are in ah mixed families, and by which I mean, you know, some of us are secular humanists, and we're going to celebrate ah the holidays with families who are Christian and and otherwise. And so it's important, I think, to talk about some of those things. And um that was one of the first things that we did together, I think, was about two years ago, we did that webinar about navigating disagreements
Hosts' Backgrounds
00:04:14
Speaker
during the holidays. And we're going to
00:04:16
Speaker
talk a bit about some of that now, but um But first, we're just going to do a bit of ah getting to know you questions, even though we know each other fairly well.
00:04:26
Speaker
Often when you and I are hosting this podcast, we're really all about the guest that we've got on. And we don't talk about ourselves very much and don't ah you know don't let the audience get to know who we are, who the strangers on the podcast asking the questions are. So so that's what we're going to get up to first. And then we're going to transition into some holiday chat.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So I do want to um kind of emphasize what you said before about this being, you know, maybe a rough holiday season for people, because I usually post a Facebook message that says, you know, this season is not, you know, not great for everybody, right? So if anyone needs anything, feel free to reach out, you know for an ear to to listen or a shoulder to cry on or something. And I think that's an important thing to emphasize this time of year. um But yeah, I have a question for you. um Sure.
00:05:13
Speaker
Not a lot of people know this about you. um And I just kind of want to know what is like, what was your religious and cultural background that you grew up in?
00:05:25
Speaker
ah Sure. So that's that's
Daniel's Faith Journey
00:05:27
Speaker
one of the things that we often bring up with our guests. Yeah. And so ah for for me, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a longer story, but I'll keep it brief. I grew up in a Presbyterian home, attending the United Church of Canada, which ah for people who may be international audiences, is a denomination that came out of several denominations in Canada coming together, including the Presbyterian Church. And I think the Episcopalians. I think there were some Anglicans in there too, but I have to... It was Methodists too, right? Was it Methodists as well? do yeah Yeah. It was a bit of a stew, really, kind of coming together and um and making something uniquely Canadian. And that was the church that I that i grew up in. I...
00:06:08
Speaker
i You know, with a lot of like with a lot of churches like that, the kind of the mainline Protestant churches, you get people kind of falling off as they get a little bit older. And I wasn't as interested in attending when I was a teenager. ah But then I got invited to an evangelical youth group.
00:06:26
Speaker
ah And that was really interesting to me. i think it was 15 when I got invited for the first time because the church I'd been growing up in had like nobody my age. ah You know, a lot of people were my parents' age or or older. it was, I think, primarily ah a really old ah congregation. You know, one foot in the grave, the other foot on a banana peel, that kind of thing. And so i got invited to this youth group and it was a lot of fun.
00:06:54
Speaker
And there were people my age and they would do bowling and they would do, ah you know, going out to movies and they would do coffee nights and and all kinds of things that just for me was ah just really exciting to be invited to. and And, you know, I was a bit of an awkward kid and to have a place to go every week that I was really welcomed was so was really valuable and I i enjoyed it. and I also got to know a lot of things about ah evangelical theology during the time, and I ah was baptized again.
00:07:27
Speaker
You know, you get baptized in the ah Presbyterian church as a child, but in the evangelical church, you get baptized when you're able to make that decision for yourself. So I got a second coat, is how I like to put it, and um was very, very devout, very zealous, and After high school, went off to Bible college and then seminary. i worked in Christian ministry for several years with an organization called Youth for Christ. And then after I left Youth for Christ, I so maintained involvement in the church as a member, as a volunteer, um and also as ah as an eventual speaker. And I would...
00:08:08
Speaker
traveled to churches and Christian conferences doing ah speaking on some subjects that were related to faith and mental health. That was a field I was pretty interested in had a bit of education in. And um all of that was kind of happening during a long faith deconstruction ah period that for me started around when i left ministry in 2010 and finished at some point in the in the intervening decade. Wow.
00:08:35
Speaker
How about about yourself, Steve? Where did you where and how did you grow up?
Steve's Faith Journey
00:08:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really, ah really funny ah thing for me because religion was never really a big part of my life. I was baptized Anglican by my mom. And I always say this is that she accidentally raised me as a free thinker because she did all the best practices without realizing what she was doing.
00:08:56
Speaker
um Because Dale McGowan wrote the book ah Parenting Beyond Belief, and he mentions the nine best practices for raising free thinkers. And she did all of that. She she kept me unlabeled. she you know She would introduce me to different myths and stories and um you know different religions. I went to different services with friends.
00:09:14
Speaker
um And I just kind of saw it for what it is, which is just human beings telling stories. And that's basically introduction to religion. um religion was really not part of my life until later on when I met my wife and then you know I had to navigate the waters of religion then ah and i kind of pretended to be um Christian to kind of fit in with her her family and you know it kind of backfired on me in the end and kind of turned me into an angry atheist and then I kind of had to do a whole deep dive into cordial conversations and in ways to ah to bridge the gaps between people who are religious and non-religious when I finally came out as a non-believer.
00:09:57
Speaker
And you go into detail about a bunch of this in your book, don't you? A little bit, yeah. I don't get too far into the weeds with that stuff. um The book is more um anecdotes about different parts of my life, things where I've come in contact with religion and how I was able to pull myself through those those conversations and those those those things. But but yeah, i I didn't really do a deep dive into the whole history of ah my um growing up in that type of environment, just mostly mostly the introduction to the book.
00:10:27
Speaker
So after that upbringing and that period of angry atheism, how did you come to become a humanist? Yeah, that's a really good question because i feel like I was always a humanist. I just didn't have a label for it.
00:10:41
Speaker
um and And I think that, and I say this in my book, that it was kind of circular. i started off as kind of a secular humanist where I didn't really have any beliefs in the divine, but I always you know had morals and I always felt like I should be a good person for goodness sake.
00:10:56
Speaker
But it wasn't until later on when i was going through my angry atheist phase and doing research and finding like the atheist experience online, finding recovering from religion and organizations like that, that the word humanist started popping up. And I'm like, wow, what is this word? Like, what does this mean? Humanist? I'm like, kind of describes who I am because I'm all about humanity because I don't believe in anything beyond that.
00:11:17
Speaker
So um when I started doing research into it, I'm like, yeah, this totally is a label for me. um and What about yourself?
Meaning of Humanism
00:11:25
Speaker
ah Yeah, fair question to send it on back. i ah i would say that for me, becoming a humanist was part of that long deconstructing process.
00:11:36
Speaker
and And I've said this before to people that I don't really know when I cross the line from i believe in God and I'm you know doing my best to keep believing in God to I don't believe in God, but I'm still going to keep going to church. It was somewhere between 2010 and 2017, 2018.
00:11:55
Speaker
and And even after that point, when due to ah a number of different reasons that we could you know we could get into if we wanted to, but I'm sure many of our listeners would um would recognize there were that you know there were cognitive reasons for me. There were um issues I had with the way the the the church did things. There were issues I had with the historicity of the Bible. There was all kinds of things. And then also philosophical ah questions that when I kept bringing them back to what Christianity had to offer, I just...
00:12:29
Speaker
just really recognized how the answers weren't satisfying or weren't coherent. um You know, they were internally coherent, but they didn't connect at all with what was visible and and understandable in the world around us. And so I i had kind of deconverted while remaining affiliated in the church. And there's a lot of research right now in the the study of religious deconversion in the social sciences, especially in social psychology, which is,
00:12:59
Speaker
the area that I'm doing my own studies in right now, ah that talk about the difference between people who are still religious, people who have never been religious, religious nuns, N-O-N-E-S, and religious duns, D-O-N-E-S, people who were religious but then have left religion and If anybody's interested in hearing more, ah they can go back and listen to my interviews with Dr. Daryl Van Tongeren about that. um But some of the research focuses on a ah group of the religious duns who are still attending churches and who are still belonging to those communities. And they're called still practicing duns.
00:13:36
Speaker
Okay. In contrast to the disaffiliated duns. Okay. And I also heard the term PIMO, which is physically in, mentally out. I'm not sure if you've heard that before. Yeah, that's that's a good one too. And so for me, I i stayed, ah i stayed there and i you know, tried my best and I tried my best to make good changes from the inside. But when COVID hit, um like there was no, there was no more pretending ah the church that we were going to, ah had made some really questionable decisions. The pastor made some questionable decisions related to COVID and the restrictions and the you know the the concerns that were coming out. There was a lot of suddenly conspiracy theories that were becoming very popular. And also ah it was just...
00:14:22
Speaker
it It was a long time coming. There was a lot of ah difficulty that I was having in maintaining that kind of double life of, you know internally and externally not matching. And so I i acknowledged, you know, i I'm an atheist. I don't, I think I said I was ah ah an agnostic at first. That seemed like a softer landing before saying, no, i I'm an agnostic and an atheist, as a lot of people have said. and um And then I also had an angry phase, but it was it was a pretty,
00:14:52
Speaker
Well, I say it's a pretty short one, but it was ah it was one that however long it was, you know, some months, certainly maybe almost a year. It ended very abruptly when I discovered what humanism was, because I i think I was looking for something that was ah positive as opposed to just, well, i I know what I'm not anymore. I'm not a theist. I'm not a Christian. um But that identity as as an atheist is all about what you aren't.
00:15:20
Speaker
Right. Yeah. so that's a good point. like What does being a humanist mean to you then? Yeah. So for me, ah being a humanist means someone who's willing to work with and ah you know open their their arms and their hands and their minds to to the rest of humanity and acknowledge that we're all one species, that we you know, what what binds us together, and what we have in common is much more important than what we have as differences. It's an understanding of the the in-group and out-group biases that we have. It's an understanding of the, you know, the reasons that we have for conflict don't need to be permanent. um
00:15:59
Speaker
It's a worldview that relies on reason And we talk a lot about secular humanism being a worldview that doesn't have supernatural components that, you know, it's about reason and and ethics and morality coming from ah from human minds and not from up on high or in an ancient book somewhere. ah But it's also.
00:16:20
Speaker
about what we're willing to work for. And, ah you know, over and above the idea that we're we're a philosophy or we're a philosophical direction that involves openness and acceptance and science and reason and morality and human rights and human value. ah Also looking at our ah sort of broader existence in the world. Just because we're humanists doesn't mean that we need to you know support factory farming, for instance. Just because we're humanists doesn't mean we need to say, well, the environment can figure itself out. We're just going to do what's best for us. We're a part of this world. And I think that humanism also has to include some level of understanding that you know we're not special just because we're humans. We're we're animals and we need to to live with the other animals on this planet too.
00:17:09
Speaker
So it's a very kind of ah vague answer there, but... No, I like that. And that's the thing we can reach out beyond humanity to other sentient beings and, and you know, anything that experiences pain or frustration, you know, it'ss it's really, it's it's intolerable to see the suffering of both humans and other animals on
Core Value of Empathy
00:17:29
Speaker
this earth. And, and you know, I want to do my part to try and make that less to lessen it, you know, at at any cost. Right.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah. and the And the same thing for for me, humanism is is along the same lines, but I think empathy is a huge word. When when I think about humanism, i always think of empathy and people, especially this day and age, are kind of fighting back against that word empathy because they're saying, oh, no, you know, empathy is not a good thing to have. You know, you shouldn't you shouldn't put yourself in someone else's shoes. You should, you know, have sympathy for them and try and help them out. And you know, for me, I'm like, I feel what other people are feeling. I want to, I want to know what that person is actually experiencing so that I can know how bad it is and know what I can do to help them.
00:18:10
Speaker
um And I find like that is something that we're missing in this, in this day and age right now is we're missing that empathy factor. And I think it's a lot of like speaking heads and stuff that keep saying, you know, oh don't, don't care about those people. And, you know, it's us versus them. And I think we, we,
00:18:25
Speaker
Humanism might be our only hope to get past the us versus them narrative. And I'm even willing to allow people to use the label, even if you are a religious person who um you know is very progressive and wants to use the word humanism or humanist because you know um even my wife claims to be a Christian humanist. She still wants hold on to some of those values.
00:18:46
Speaker
beliefs in the divine, but at the same time, she follows the principles of humanism. So who apply to say, you know, you can't use that label. um And I actually mentioned that in, there's a new book by Humanist Canada. There's a bunch of authors together. We've put together this book called Humanism, Canadian Perspectives. And there's actually, the other side of it is actually the French version, which is kind of cool. Half of it's English, half of it's French. And the best part of it is there's actually a little mini hum Happy Humanist with a toque on.
00:19:14
Speaker
Oh, So it's really cool. That's right on the, on the spine, but um lots of people's different perspectives in here. and And my perspective on that is, you know, I'm fully willing if someone is progressive and religious, but wants to work together to make the world a better place, I'm all for working with people.
00:19:29
Speaker
um We should probably even, you know, some of the people that have been authors in this book, we should probably get them on the podcast sometime. That'd be really cool to start talking to more people in in the Canadian, from the Canadian humanist perspective.
00:19:41
Speaker
I think that's a great idea. And i thought the book was a fabulous idea when I saw it was coming out. um And you bring up an interesting point. you know are we the Are we the gatekeepers of what it means to be a humanist? Are we are we the ones, or is Humanist Canada the ones in Cureton, Canada, or Humanist International around the world? Are we the ones who get to say, this is what it means to be a humanist, and then you can be in, and this is what it means to not be a humanist, and so you you're you're out. um Can someone be a Christian humanist? Can someone be a spiritual but not religious humanist?
00:20:17
Speaker
um I think those are interesting questions. I think that the sometimes the label secular humanist ah massive yeah it kind of makes that little bit more simple. I would consider myself to be a secular humanist, right? And that's where I think that yourself and others are as well. yeah um And that's why I'm saying that like the word secular humanism is specific to non-belief in the divine.
00:20:38
Speaker
Because secondary is just the lack of religion or lack of belief and in religion. but But, you know, if someone wants to be considered a humanist for their behavior, I think that's totally acceptable. okay It's an interesting question for sure.
Spiritual Beliefs in Humanism
00:20:51
Speaker
I think some of our ah some of our colleagues in different humanist organizations worldwide might hold different opinions or say no, like if you're If you you have any spiritual beliefs at all, you probably don't fit the label of of humanist. And I'm certainly willing to entertain those discussions. But I also think that ah there's a lot of um little hair splitting that happens sometimes. And while I appreciate that it's good to have an organization that is, you know, this is for secular people and we want to make sure secular people secular people have a place to be and to be in community, um
00:21:29
Speaker
i'm I'm certain that there's some ah some spiritual beliefs amongst a lot of our members. we think we even did a survey about that a few years ago in our newsletter and found out that a significant number of our membership were people who ah you know people who had some spiritual beliefs or enough to consider themselves spiritual but not religious and a humanist. So that's a really interesting question.
00:21:53
Speaker
It is. And like you said before, it's a philosophy, right? So like people can, can tag onto any philosophy, regardless of what you, what you believe about, you know, reality and and works, but yeah, and it's, it's totally a topic for debate. um I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not too, too keen on pushing back when people, you know, share their opinion about it one way or the other. I'm, I'm just, I'm just stating my opinion. I feel like it's, it's totally acceptable for people to, to use that label as humanist, not secular humanist. Secular humanist has a specific, meaning. um But yeah, it it just depends on on the values that you hold, I think, as a person, whether or not you can be considered a humanist.
00:22:34
Speaker
Yeah. And I had a conversation this summer with a friend who's ah's still religious and um is, I would say, like a a pretty progressive Christian. um And they were asking me about humanism and what it meant and why I was getting involved. And they after that conversation, they said, well, haven't you just...
00:22:51
Speaker
like made another group that you say air everybody needs to become a humanist now so that the world can be saved. He says, isn't that, isn't it just the same thing as what every other faith group is saying? And I had to respond with, well, no, because we don't, we don't need anybody else to leave their religions and come join us in the secular humanist world. We just need to be able to work together.
00:23:14
Speaker
Yeah,
Collaboration Across Beliefs
00:23:15
Speaker
exactly. yeah We've got, we've got a lot of common, um, common goals in mind. And I keep bringing up the example of the Freedom From Religion Foundation the States, whose one of their largest donors a Baptist denomination.
00:23:28
Speaker
ah who's one of their largest donors is a baptist denomination you know And I think that that's a really good example of how we can have ah common values, even if we have diverging beliefs, and how those common values um can help us work together towards common goals, even though we might have different guesses about ultimate reality. And we could all be wrong.
00:23:53
Speaker
Yeah. I really like John Rawls' veil of ignorance, where you can stand on the outside of reality and say, okay, if I was going to design you know a world or a society and and I'm not sure who I'm going to be in this world, you're going to be very careful to make sure that everything is you know equitable. You're going to make sure that everybody is equal. It's going to be you know You wouldn't want to say like, oh, it's going to be one person's religion is going to dictate everything. Because what if you happen to be in that world and you're not part of that religion? Right. And I think a lot of times, um even like you said, the the Baptist ah denomination that's supporting FFRF, they probably are understanding that, hey, guess what? Islam is on the rise. And if it becomes the the religion in the in the West at some point, like the main religion, we don't want them to have power over government. Right. So like they're sure fighting the same fight that we're fighting just, you know, from a different perspective. But we're all working together for the same goal. Hopefully that's that's the the key anyway, is the progressive people in all different denominations and religions.
00:24:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think you got something there for sure. that The idea that we, we have to share this planet somehow, yeah you know, and we're not all going to, we're not all going to guess correctly about the morality or ultimate reality, or even what's best for ourselves sometimes. ah So it's, it's best to approach things with some humility. You mentioned the veil of ignorance. I keep going back to Calvin and Hobbes. I'm thinking about that. that one strip where Calvin is, he's at the table with his parents and he's yelling at them. And he says, well, what if God's a giant chicken? We're all going to be in a lot of trouble then obviously being forced to eat some chicken dish that he doesn't like. And, um and that's just in the back of my head sometimes when we're, having conversations or friendly debates or discussing things with people that we disagree with just in the back of my head, what if God's a giant chicken? Like like we could all have it wrong.
00:25:51
Speaker
And, and, and I think approaching it with humility and understanding that we're, you know We're being secular humanists because that's that's our best guess based on the data. And so we we can be a little bit ah a little bit humble about ah you know prescribing what other people need to do and believe. As long as we can work together and support human rights and human flourishing, I think those are things we need to to put our time into. Yeah. And recently you talked to phils phil's Phil Zuckerman about yeah morality. and And the thing is that's cool about you know humanist morality is that basically we can evolve with the time. So if something we're doing happens to be you know found out to be not moral or the least moral thing or whatever, we can change our our opinion. We can change our the way we approach things. like I really like the freedom that we have with our worldview to be able to just you know accept the the science and and go with it.
00:26:48
Speaker
Yeah. And, and that also is going to require more work from us in the future as the world continues to evolve. And we become, we become old. I'm saying become old because we're not old yet. I'm maintaining that. hold god We're holding We're holding on um But like that there's things that we, ah that we haven't even thought of yet that, um that, that,
00:27:14
Speaker
That are going to cop in morality. Like we didn't, we didn't think about social media when we were kids because we didn't have it. but it It didn't need to enter into our moral landscape. um And now we're all talking about, well, people call it AI, but like the large language learning models or, or whatever. um And we're starting to navigate new morals there. What happens if they do achieve some kind of consciousness? Like we're going to be the generation that says, well, I don't think my grandkids should be dating some AI like a person that doesn't exist in the real world.
00:27:47
Speaker
We'll be calling them toasters and stuff like from Battlestar Galactica. And people would be like, oh, you guys are so racist. Like, Get out get with the times and we're going to be the old people who can't get with the times. So that'll be something for us to look forward to, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Every generation has their, their slip ups, right? Yeah.
00:28:02
Speaker
Speaking of racist relatives, ah Christmas is coming up. yeah At least when we're recording this. It is, thank you.
Navigating Family Gatherings
00:28:13
Speaker
um and ah And I know that some of us are going ah to be going to gatherings with ah with pretty varied families, families with a lot of different perspectives. And um I feel very fortunate to belong to a family that's that's quite open, that has a diversity of perspectives. But, you know, we really in my family are are quite fortunate to have a lot of really good critical thinkers across the board. And we had, you know, ah we had a lot of interesting conversations during COVID, for instance, but all of us were on the same same general side of the the values discussions. And so even though there's some family members that I have diverging beliefs with, we have very, very diverse
00:29:01
Speaker
solid values in common. And I've always felt very fortunate with that, but I know that there's some, some of the families where that's not the case. And, and for some they're becoming a secular humanist has caused significant conflict or distress in their family. And and sometimes they're going to family gatherings during the holiday season where people you Well, they're they're saying things that are racist or homophobic or that are microaggressions. ah There might even be people even here in Canada going to holiday gatherings where some of the people there could be wearing red hats you know that that have certain expressions that are... are commonly associated with the far right in the United States. I don't want to say them here because ah we'll get on some kind of algorithm somewhere, but but you get my meaning. There's going to be ah there's going to be some some conflict coming in for some people that going to the holidays is actually ah a source of considerable stress.
00:30:04
Speaker
Right. No, it totally is for sure. And, and that's, that's the biggest thing that we, we deal with.
Introduction to Street Epistemology
00:30:10
Speaker
um Even with recovering from religion, we get a lot of people calling in and saying, you know, how do I talk to my religious family member? Or how do I talk to my, my family member who is on a different political side of the coin that I am at? And, you know, it's going to be really hard over Thanksgiving or over Christmas or, you know, over Hanukkah, whatever, whatever it is that the people celebrate, um And one of the things that we we try and lead with is is to teach them how to use street epistemology.
00:30:39
Speaker
um don't know if you remember like our conversations in the past about street epistemology. and Yeah, yeah. is But street epistemology is basically like um using the Socratic method to ask questions as opposed to just...
00:30:52
Speaker
you know, shouting, shouting matches, basically it becomes a cordial conversation. um And the one thing that it started in a book um by Dr. Peter Boghossian called the manual for creating atheists. And he actually hated the title of that book. He wanted it to be called how to have impossible conversations. The the publishing company there said, no, that's not scathing enough. We need it to be you know so more scathing. So he eventually was able to write the second book and call it,
00:31:19
Speaker
how to have impossible conversations, which I think is a better title than a manual for creating atheists because the goal estemology is not just to create atheists. It's just to get people thinking critically and to be able to have like cordial conversations without causing that backfire effect, which is people digging down in their beliefs and and digging their heels in. um And, and what I've figured out. So, so Anthony Magna Bosco is one of the main practitioners of street epistemology. And he,
00:31:48
Speaker
founded street internet Street Epistemology International, which is an organization that trains people and actually has courses on how to do these conversations. And the coolest part is he wrote the intro to my book. like He wrote the foreword for my book. And when I met him in Nashville last year, he signed my copy of my book. So I'm like super fanboying about that. but Right.
00:32:08
Speaker
But what he's done is he's actually gone on the street with a sign and said, you know, like, tell me about your deeply held beliefs. And then he'll go through a whole shtick of having these conversations on the street. um But epistemology is just the study of how we know what we know.
00:32:23
Speaker
It's like, how do we know what we claim to know? Right. Right. It's a philosophy. So the cool part about the street version of it, and it doesn't have to be on a literal road, but it's, you can have these conversations in the home. Right.
00:32:36
Speaker
during dinners, during whatever. And it just, it's one of the most magical things to be able to have a conversation and not raise the hairs on people's necks. um And we can get into like how that's done and everything as well. But um the one thing that I've developed from my experiences with street epistemology is I come up with the three mutuals.
00:32:55
Speaker
And I talk about this in my presentation. So the first one is right, right, standing. So if you can come up with a mutual understanding for the person across the table from you, whether you agree on things or not, if you can just come to an understanding of why it is that they believe what they believe, you can kind of start to see them as a human as well.
00:33:12
Speaker
Right. It just makes it a little bit easier to see them as a human. Moving on from that, if you can accept where they're coming from, not that you accept their their statement or their their claims, but if you just can accept where they're coming from, that's another step in the mutual. So there's mutual understanding, mutual acceptance. And then from there, you can build that mutual respect, right? So you can respect somebody else, even though they they have a completely different worldview than you do. and And again, we can get into how to do that. But basically, that's the three mutuals that I talk about in my presentations.
00:33:45
Speaker
What's your experience with these type of conversations? So um first of all, that that is a ah ah great approach. I think that the books you've mentioned are ones we should absolutely put in the show notes because for sure, especially the how to have impossible conversations on. I agree with you and the author about the title of the previous one. um And, yeah, I think that the the the way we often think about having conversations with people that we disagree with, we think about trying to convince them that we're right. yeah We have this idea that if we just give them enough facts, the things that we think that are are true, they're going to see things our way. But that's not how people work. That's not even how we work. Most most of the time, we're just trying to reinforce our own beliefs. It actually takes a lot of effort.
00:34:35
Speaker
to think critically. It takes a lot of effort to examine your own beliefs and be open to changing them. um And our brains are ah really, really good at convincing us that we don't need to expend that effort. So that's the first thing, is that we don't want to expend the effort. We are naturally inclined to not expend an effort. The second thing that happens is that we don't know, ah as as animals, we don't know how to differentiate between an attack on ourselves, our physical selves, and an attack on our beliefs.
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. so when ah when people have been put into fMRI studies and ah and put through different experiences, one of the things that we've discovered is that the brain reacts exactly the same to a physical assault as it does to an assault on a deeply held belief. We just don't we don't have different ah hardware and software beliefs to respond to those different threats. And so if we're if we're going after somebody's beliefs in a conversation thinking, I'll just, you know, I'll just demolish these beliefs and then they're going to know how silly they are and I'm going to convince them otherwise.
00:35:45
Speaker
um it's It's the same as far as their brain is concerned as us swinging a hammer at their head. And um I'm generally not very receptive to changing my mind when there's a hammer coming at my head. you know yeah And we start doing yeah exactly we start doing the fight or flight things. We start getting our adrenaline up, our cortisol. We start getting ready to go crazy.
00:36:07
Speaker
Yep. And we don't use our prefrontal cortex, our our reason and our problem solving as well. And so we just it's really counterproductive. And that's one of the reasons why I don't engage in in debates. And I don't really feel that inclined towards, you know, tracking down all my religious friends and family and convincing them that they're wrong about things. ah Because That's usually an exercise in futility. ah But yeah, can you can you walk us through some of how the street epistemology process works?
Engaging Conversations
00:36:42
Speaker
You mentioned the mutuals thing, which I think is a really great starting point. ah how How would it work if, for example, some of our listeners were about to be going to a a family get together in a few days or sometime over the holidays or even in a in a future holiday or a future Christmas season? ah How would they go about this process? Yeah.
00:37:01
Speaker
Yeah, that's a really good question. And it's going to be different for everybody. And it's not going to work for everybody, too. I want to you know give that disclaimer. um The best thing you can do is think about what you're going to say before you say it And i know that sounds cliche, but the but the the heart of it is, is that what you want to do is you want to come up with a question to start off the conversation. You don't want to start the conversation off by saying something like, you believe in myths, so I'm not going to take anything you say seriously. Or you think so-and-so is a good leader and he's an idiot, right? Those are the types of things that are going to get the amygdala going right away. People are going to build their fences. It's going to cause that backfire effect. They're going to dig in their heels further.
00:37:41
Speaker
And you know what? They may even may even be on the fence with this stuff because the only person that can convince somebody to change their mind is themselves, right? So they might already be on the fence, but if you come in guns blazing, they're just going to put up a a defensive wall and maybe even just defend beliefs that they don't even hold anymore. um Now, the one thing that I always like to do is I approach with, I think, sentimentally, what is it that I would want to hear, right? What is it that I want to hear? um And I also think of...
00:38:08
Speaker
um what can I learn from this? These are things that I think internally, when I go into any conversation, I want to say, what am I going to learn from this? What are my goals for this? Right. If your goal is to just have a cordial conversation, cool. Let's start off really, really small, right? If your goal is to try and convince somebody of something else, again, you got to start small. You can't, you can't go guns blazing. So very first thing i would say, if we're gonna talk about religion is i would say to somebody, what is it that gives your life meaning? Right.
00:38:38
Speaker
Because that is a really good open ended question where someone can just say, oh well, actually, my family gives my life meaning. Like, oh, OK, cool. What is it about your family that gives you your life meaning? Well, you know, I had my kids and, you know, my kids are are, you know, I'm really proud of them for doing this, this and this, you know, that type of thing. Right. And then you can if you want to go further than that, because first of all, you've avoided the question of religion altogether. So you don't need to touch it. But if you wanted to say, well, I also know that you are a Christian, so how does Christianity fit into your into your moral framework or how does that fit into your outlook on life?
00:39:11
Speaker
And you know just allow them to express it and then show genuine curiosity because we should be genuinely curious. Curiosity is one of those things where... if we can learn something from somebody, whether or not we're trying to you know learn about their actual beliefs so that we can we can ah find something that's like true about it, but even just to find out what it is that they believe, to get that first mutual understanding, right to get that understanding of where it is they're coming from.
00:39:36
Speaker
um And I've had so many conversations like this where I've started really slow and just kind of asked them questions about their own beliefs to the point where I'm like, okay, I totally get where they're coming from now and I know why. They feel that they need to go to church on Sunday. And guess what? It's not to do with God. It's to do with the community.
00:39:52
Speaker
Right? So a lot of times we judge people at a time thinking this person is going because they believe in God and they hate gays and this, that, and the other. When really all it is, is it's a community that they're a part of. And guess what? They actually accept the LGBTQIA community. Right? Like we just don't know. We just assume the worst. We we look at a Christian and we think Kenneth Copeland.
00:40:11
Speaker
Right. People look at us and they think christo Christopher Hitchens. They don't see the person. Right. And I feel like if we were able to start with questions and get to the heart of who somebody is before judging them, that's the best approach.
00:40:26
Speaker
I like how you you're emphasizing that it's a very open process, that it's a process that involves a lot of curiosity and invitation ah and an an actual act of listening, not just asking questions so you can like you know go around behind the person and and catch them off guard while they're trying to figure out how to answer your tricky question. You're making a genuine connection.
00:40:50
Speaker
Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Building the rapport. Because the more rapport you have, the more someone's going to trust you, right? And you're going to trust that person as well, which is then going to lead to that ah mutual acceptance, right? When you get to the point where you accept each other for who you are. And then I wouldn't even go as far as to say the mutual respect part has been earned yet, right? Because that's one thing that respect is something that has to be earned. It's not something that you just...
00:41:12
Speaker
automatically give somebody or so or or or their beliefs or anything like that, right? you need to They need to earn that. But it's ah it goes both ways, right? You need to be respectful ah for them to be able to respect you.
00:41:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good suggestion. And if people are interested in learning more about street epistemology, is there a place that they can go online to easily pick up some tips and tricks Yeah, um street and internet Street Epistemology International. You can just type that into Google and it'll go to Moscow's page. There's actually a um ah list of, I think it's a list of 10,000 now. or It's like 10,000 people that are practicing street epistemology.
00:41:55
Speaker
um and And if you look up Anthony Magna Bosco on YouTube, um he's got tons of videos of talking to people and just I studied those videos in and out to find out, you know, what are the best ways to approach people and to actually have these cordial conversations. There's lots of other people out there to read Nice Wonder is one of them. He's out there doing the same thing.
00:42:14
Speaker
um There's a lot of people. Calvin Smith, he's actually just across the the bridge from me in in Detroit area. He goes out to the to a park and just it's a sign that says, ask an atheist. And he has the same type of questions where he just, someone will come up to him and, you know,
00:42:30
Speaker
Yell in his face or something. he just goes, ah you know, like, oh, what is it that you want to discuss today? Did you have any questions for me? And it just, you know, you you you approach it with a calm and curious demeanor and people are like, oh, OK, well, maybe this person isn't a threat. So it brings down the amygdala and then they can start thinking with the frontal cortex. And then when they start engaging in the conversation.
00:42:51
Speaker
Maybe there's going to be a point where you can place a pebble in their shoe that's going to continue later on to to nag at them and say, like, you know, maybe I should look further into this before I you know start spewing to people that they're going to hell.
00:43:03
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So if people are interested in finding those resources, they're freely available online. a number of videos on YouTube where these things are being practiced. Yeah.
00:43:15
Speaker
I think those are really great methods. I have another suggestion for people who might be interested ah
Dialectic Method
00:43:22
Speaker
in it. It's adjacent to the street epistemology. It's it's quite similar to it. um It's something called the dialectic method. And it's often used in... um in conversations between people, especially like moderated or mediated conversations between people who have very opposing views. So you do see this thing coming out in like marriage counseling even, and um and even sometimes like divorce lawyers, if from what I've been told, who use this method when they're trying to you navigate waters. um
00:43:54
Speaker
But the dialectic method has six steps. and I'm just going to give them really quick. and I know that people are going to be ah looking in them up more later, I hope. um It's a method of looking at a situation from both sides to see how the other perspective could be valid, or at least how somebody else could have arrived at it. And I think one of the best examples that I've seen of a similar process is the new project called the Enemies Project, which is on YouTube as well, where two people from vastly different political views come together for a moderated conversation.
00:44:28
Speaker
So the first step of the dialectic method is to clearly identify the problem. And so if, for example, Steve, you and I are at a family gathering and and and one of us is really against immigration, as an example, we might say, so One of the things that we're one of the things we're disagreeing or talking about right now is about ah what immigration and about um safety when people are are coming into the country and about housing and about jobs and about kind of all those things that are related. And you kind of boil it down to whatever it is you want to talk about. Then step two is to listen to the opposing view.
00:45:04
Speaker
And this is the part where I find the most difficult for me because when I'm listening to somebody, usually I'm already thinking about what I'm going to say. So this is the part that I have to work on where you listen to them without thinking about how you're going to respond to every piece.
00:45:19
Speaker
um The third step is to restate their view in your own words. and ah ideally in such a way that they agree with you that you've understood them.
00:45:30
Speaker
Sometimes this is called steel manning, where you try to present their views in the strongest possible way you can. This is to contrast with straw manning, obviously. And once you restate their views in your own words, yet you check in and say, do I have that right? Am I understanding you correctly? that this is what your perspective is and if they agree then you move on to step four, which is which is to present your views.
00:45:58
Speaker
ah And hopefully, if they've been listening to how well you've been ah paying attention to them, they'll also be paying attention to you. ah Step five is to look for the common ground.
00:46:11
Speaker
If we're talking about immigration, you know, for instance, we might say, so it sounds like both of us are really wanting to make sure that our kids grow up in a country that there's plenty of jobs for them and plenty of places for them to live and clean air and water and ah good social services and a social safety net and all of those kinds of things. And that might also be a time to say, gosh, I bet a lot of those immigrants who are coming here also want those things for their kids. And and I wonder what it must be like to come as ah as a refugee and having lost everything, left everything behind and, you know, be coming to Canada and, know,
00:46:50
Speaker
still wanting to hope for those things for for your kids and that's a good opportunity to practice like you said empathy and then the last step step six is to reflect in the process where ah you can kind of invite to the person and say well how did that feel for you while we were talking about that do you feel like you understand me any better do you feel like i understand you pretty well uh And see if there's been any ah any change in how either of us think about the issue. um So that's the dialectic method. And it's it's very similar to street epistemology. And I think that's complementary, in fact. and And I really like that. and the thing is that with street epistemology, it's more about finding out um what the other person thinks, as opposed to or views across. yeah yeah What you're trying to do is you're trying to model to them how you want to be asked questions. You're not sharing your opinion at all. It's more about getting their opinion, right? And then it's almost like you're going through it and saying like, oh, okay, I i understand where you're coming from. What about this? you know And then ask them more questions about themselves. And it's more about them doing a self-discovery by talking out loud.
00:47:57
Speaker
um But I really like that dialectic method, because then you're you're allowing yourself to also share your opinion, because yeah that's like part of street epistemology. Street epistemology is more about how did that person get to know what they claim to know. So I think the two of them together would probably be like a really excellent communication method.
00:48:15
Speaker
um yeah Yeah, I think they have been. yeah And it's it's good to also know that there's there's a few cases where maybe we don't want to engage in those conversations. And one of them would be, you know if you're from a a population that is experiencing microaggressions, if you're if you're gay and you're going to an extended family gathering and you just know that if you get into it, you're going to be ah experiencing ah negativity or hate or something along those lines of microaggressions. I mean, I don't think that you should feel obligated to do any of these practices oh absolutely with your, you know, for example, homophobic uncle, just because two straight white guys on a podcast said that these are good methods. You're under no obligation to educate the people around you. oh no
00:49:04
Speaker
And you shouldn't feel like you you have to to do that because it's just part of your your job as someone from a you know, from a more of a minority population. um Some people are just not going to be open to that. and And it's okay to walk away. Yeah, well, that's why I was prefacing everything by saying this is for everybody. And it's not exactly, you know, and it's always, especially if you're in any type of confrontation where you feel feel like you're in danger, like get the hell out of there. You know what I mean? If you if it's something that's going to be, you know, um a threat to you or anybody else, just make sure you disengage from a situation as as gracefully as possible and get the hell out of there. yeah The one thing I also want to mention too is the best way to to finish a conversation is to thank your conversation partner for having that conversation. Because if you genuinely say, thank you so much for having this conversation. I've learned so much from you. And I'm hoping that you've learned something from me. And maybe we can pick this up again later. And it's like, that goes so far. Usually you see someone crack a smile or they'll say, oh, yeah, thanks so much for having this conversation. Even if it got a little bit heated at one point, at least they know that you're a safe person and you can go back and have another conversation in the future.
00:50:11
Speaker
Absolutely. I completely agree.
When Not to Engage
00:50:15
Speaker
So we're just about coming up on our time together, Steve, which is, as always, far too short when we're hanging out. um I wanted to mention there's one other time There's one other time when you may want to reconsider having conversations that um where we're trying to, you know, dig at the underlying beliefs people have or other things like that. And it might be when the other person isn't ready for it or it's not an appropriate time for them. um I'm thinking about a book called ah How Minds Change by David McGrady, who talks a lot about street epistemology and the dialectic method and and those kinds of things. And he ends his book after having walked everybody through the research and the methods and everything, telling a story about ah being at a retreat with someone, with a group of people, and finding out that one person was a very devout religious person. And then that person said, hey, why don't you try your street epistemology stuff on me? See if you can get me to change my mind about about stuff. And um
00:51:20
Speaker
And so ah David listens to the person's story and it's a, it's a beautiful and a moving story about loss and grief and the importance of faith in that process. And then when the story's over, David just refuses to engage. He refuses to try to to shake that person's beliefs. He said, this would be wrong. There's no reason to do that. There's no, there's no winning here. um, and I've had friends where after I you after i to set said up to people I was no longer a Christian, and they would say, well, tell me why you don't believe anymore. And I know that these people have told me in the past that their faith in Jesus is the only thing that keeps them going after loss, after tragedy, in a really hard job, ah or or things like that. And I've just said, you know, I'm not not really that interested in trying to convince you differently. I'd really just rather we we stay friends and and focus on the things we have in common and the values we have in common because, hey, sometimes that's a load-bearing Jesus. you know like That's a belief that genuinely is keeping them going. And maybe they're not ah ready or or able or it might not even be good for them. to try to walk away in that moment. Because leaving faith, as Steve, as you know, as a volunteer from recovering from religion, leaving faith can be quite traumatic for some people. yeah And we want to be very cautious when we're approaching people in that way.
00:52:47
Speaker
Yeah. And the thing is, too, is the um
00:52:51
Speaker
I mentioned this in my book as well, is that, you know, sometimes the the truth isn't what people need. yeah And sometimes they need to find meaning and purpose in something. And sometimes they find meaning and purpose in in stories that aren't true, but it has meaning for them.
00:53:09
Speaker
And who are we to take that away from them? right Right? So unless someone's willing to say, you know, I, this isn't working for me and I want something else. then, you know, as long as they're not hurting somebody else, as long as they're not hurting themselves, I mean, it's, it's, it's harmless, right? So really, if they're willing to work with us and find commonalities on other things, like you said, and they don't necessarily share the same outlook on reality that we do, um then there's there's no harm in that.
00:53:40
Speaker
And the one thing that Dale McGowan has said before is that um sometimes people, trying to think of the way he worded this. um Sometimes the truth is not as valuable as... ah No, shoot. No, I can't think of what the way he words it. But it's basically just saying that sometimes um sometimes people want to... No, I know what it is. The desire to believe outweighs the desire to know.
00:54:08
Speaker
And then eventually, maybe if someone gets to the point where they're comfortable, the desire to know will outweigh their desire to believe. And I think that's way to say it.
00:54:20
Speaker
Yeah, but we don't get to make that decision for them. We don't. No, no, no. This is this is someone's personal... personal beliefs. And like I said, as long as they're not harming anybody, as long as they're not harming themselves, um you know, and there are organizations out there to help people like we mentioned, recovering from religion. um The secular therapy project is also like a sister organization to recovering from religion where people can find a therapist who isn't going to push religion or any type of beliefs on them.
00:54:45
Speaker
um And, you know, there's there's resources like that for people to to explore. and and And Recovering from Religion is not there to push people out of religion. It's there to be a shoulder to cry on so that, you know, if people are experiencing, you know, ah just even doubts, even just, you know, saying like, i I still believe in a God, but my church is so crazy conservative that they're trying to, you know, force me to do whatever.
00:55:06
Speaker
Well, guess what? Recovering from Religion is going to find you a different church. you know like They're not there to completely abolish religion. They're there to help guide you in whatever whatever journey you're on. Very well said. Yeah, very well said.
Pursuit of Peace
00:55:24
Speaker
Well, I think it's about time for us to start wrapping up this chat, Steve. It's, as always, such a pleasure to chat with you. i wanted to, at this time,
00:55:35
Speaker
I wanted to at this time just take a ah brief moment to comment on something that's ah often discussed this time of year, the idea of peace on Earth. The holidays are almost upon us. Christmas is almost upon us. And we hear the phrase peace on Earth ah a lot these days. I think in a pluralistic world like ours, filled with Christians, Muslims, Jews, ah secular humanists like us. i think it's important to that peace is not just the absence of conflict, but the active of pursuit of harmony, understanding and shared well-being. So I think that if we let it, the idea of peace on Earth can serve as a reminder for us that
00:56:16
Speaker
Peace isn't a passive state. It's an ongoing effort that requires collaboration and dialogue and commitment to common goals. It means reorganizing and capitalizing on our collaborative and altruistic nature as humans. So we're going to have to set aside different beliefs and focus on common values. So if we really do want to have peace on Earth this holiday season and afterwards in ah in a world like ours filled with conflict, um we're going to have to we're goingnna have to be the ones to do it. The people like us, the ordinary people, are going to have to put in the
Closing Remarks
00:56:50
Speaker
work. So for everybody out there who is celebrating or not celebrating or whatever you happen to be doing during the holidays, if you hear or think or talk about peace on earth, whether you're religious, non-religious, or anything in between, I'd say you're all welcome to the work. There's more than enough to go around.
00:57:10
Speaker
That's totally true. All we have is each other. Exactly. All right, Steve, thanks again for the conversation. And to everybody else, happy holidays. Happy the holidays.
00:57:24
Speaker
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00:57:44
Speaker
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