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Episode 30 - An Interview with Daniel Dacombe, Maggie Ardiente, and Gary McLelland
95 Plays3 days ago
Humanist Canada's Daniel Dacombe sits down with Gary McLelland and the President of Humanist International, Maggie Ardiente.
They discuss how they came to Humanism, the recent Freedom of Thought Report, and the upcoming World Humanist Conference in Ottawa.
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Transcript
Introduction and Cultural Context
00:00:01
Speaker
When we look at some of the kind of pervasive culture that we see coming from like the tech sphere and, you know, this kind of long termism, the, you know, don't worry if we mess up the planet because we can have our escape pods in New Zealand or whatever, that kind of culture permeates through into our popular culture. And it's anathema to the idea of a kind of human based progress that humanists call for.
Podcast Overview: The Voice of Canadian Humanism
00:00:32
Speaker
Welcome to The Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens.
00:00:49
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
Meet the Guests: Maggie Ardiente and Gary McClellan
00:00:53
Speaker
Well, hello everyone. My name is Daniel Dacombe, and I'm one of the hosts of The Voice of Canadian Humanism podcast. On this podcast, you like to feature the voices that are involved in leading or important to humanism, both in Canada and beyond. And I'm very pleased to be joined by today's guests, Maggie Ardiente and Gary McClellan from Humanist International.
00:01:14
Speaker
Welcome here, folks. Hi, Daniel. Thank you.
Personal Journeys to Humanism
00:01:17
Speaker
So one of the things that we like to do when we start these interviews is to ask our guests a bit about themselves. And usually we're most interested in what cultural or religious environments that they grew up in and how they came to be here with us today. So I was hoping to just start off by doing that. Could you each tell us a bit about yourself and where you came from?
00:01:38
Speaker
Sure. um Well, I was born in the United States, but I have Filipino immigrant parents. So I was raised Catholic. of The Philippines is largely a Catholic country. and i But I was a very skeptical, critical thinker when I was a younger kid. So I had to read Bible stories that were written for children, and it would just make absolutely no sense to me. I didn't understand how you can fit two animals of every kind on a big boat and... How, you know, Abraham could even consider yeah sacrificing his son just because he heard a voice.
00:02:14
Speaker
um i i asked a lot of these questions of my parents and my parents were very like, oh, it's just faith, you know, don't, true but don't don't. Don't think too much into it, but it was very hard because I was going to school and I was learning about science and I was learning about reason and again, being a critical thinker. So it was it was difficult growing up. um I definitely kept some of my thoughts to myself regarding questioning the existence of God.
00:02:39
Speaker
I eventually, when I went to college, did find a group called the James Madison University Freethinkers, where I went to school, that really helped me understand what it meant to be a humanist and an atheist in particular, that you could be somebody who didn't believe in God at all, didn't believe in any kind of intervening higher power. And you could still be a good person and still be somebody who contributes to society. So I think if it wasn't for my upbringing as a Catholic, I think I would have been able to explore some of these ideas and then really refine you know my thinking as a critical thinker. And so now that you know those skills carry me throughout my whole life. And I think it's something that's really important for people growing up.
00:03:22
Speaker
I think that's ah ah going to be a familiar story for a lot of our listeners, especially that bit about Noah's Ark. I ah I had some similar thoughts and and questions growing up. And I i do remember seeing, and I think I saw it when I was a little older, some of those like children's books of Noah's Ark, yeah like you know the coloring books. and the thing yeah Which I've got to say, is what a wild story to pick from the Bible to to put in in coloring books for children since it's about genocide. But moving on from that, I i i remember seeing that and thinking, I don't know if I I don't know but what I think about this. And and one in particular image stands out two lions going onto the ark and they're both, they both have manes, which I had additional questions about. How are two male lions going to,
00:04:05
Speaker
you know carry the load of that ah responsibility for their species. but yeah And they're walking next to deer, right? Or something that they would eat immediately the moment they saw them. It just made it just made no sense. But you know when you're a little kid, it you just think that it just doesn't reconcile. And so right away, you just want to start asking questions. You don't think that there's this bigger picture of hey, religion has existed for many, many years and this is how people have been raised and you're just supposed to not question it and believe it and pray to God and all your questions will be answered. And that just never happened for
Exploring Beliefs and Skepticism
00:04:43
Speaker
me. And I couldn't let it go. You know, I know that there are some... people whom if that that makes them happy, if that satisfies them, if God, if they feel like a God gives them answers and all of that, hey, more power to you. I'm not here to take away your beliefs or take away your right to believe. But I it just never stuck with me. I always questioned it and never felt satisfied with those answers.
00:05:07
Speaker
Well, I look forward to the eventual Humanist International field trip to the Ark Encounter Museum. ah i i would like to sign up for the first for the first round. That would be a very painful visit, but but I have been curious. It's my my only, you know, and I think that, ah in fact, um you know, a number of U.S.-based humanist and atheist organizations, I think, may have attempted to make some trips out there just for research purposes and to sort of report out.
Gary's Scottish Cultural Experience
00:05:36
Speaker
um It would be very painful for me to do, but mostly it's more I have no interest in giving them any kind of money. So if I could get in there free. That's the thing, yeah. I'd be very curious. I actually would be happy to do it. You know, in here in Washington, D.C., there's a Museum of the Bible, which is one of the few museums in D.C. that isn't free. Right. Because it's not part the Smithsonian network of museums. And so you do have to pay. And I have been very interested in just seeing what's there, just what.
00:06:02
Speaker
what they display and what is so important to them and that and what they claim to be these religious sacred texts or sacred objects and things like that. But I don't want to give them money. So I'll wait until they have a free day, maybe, and I'll and i'll check it out.
00:06:17
Speaker
Well, let me know when I'll try to be there. ah Gary, how about yourself? I hope it wasn't going to be a very Noah's Ark forward story you were going to tell us. Not quite. No, and not this. I mean, not this similar to Maggie in some ways. So I grew up just outside of Glasgow in Scotland and in a small town.
00:06:35
Speaker
And my mum's family were and Irish immigrants to and the west coast of Scotland. And so i was raised in a sort fairly traditional Irish Catholic ah family, and went through the Catholic education system, and which which is, i guess, quite an interesting aspect, which influenced my involvement in humanism. and Probably people will know that in Glasgow, in the west coast of Scotland, we have this sectarian divide between Catholic and Protestant. And and when the Irish em immigrants started coming over in the early 20th century, it caused quite a lot of political trouble um and there was a lot of anti-immigrant rhetoric and you know mistreatment of the Irish em immigrants and so on. So in response to that in the 1920s the UK government set up a sort of segregated schooling system. Now
00:07:26
Speaker
From what we can tell, and it seems to have been done in the best interests of the Irish community, the idea being that they could have separate schools so that they could you know be taught in their traditional Catholic ways and so on and so forth, and that it would be protected and to give them some sort of you know equal treatment. Obviously, when we fast forward 100 years,
00:07:48
Speaker
we have the situation, which is what I went through, where we have state-funded, you know, a completely state-funded system, which is split between Catholic and Protestant. So, you know, every school in Scotland, more or less, is either a Catholic school or a Protestant school.
Transition to Humanism
00:08:02
Speaker
And anyway, I went through the Catholic education system. And I must say that my...
00:08:07
Speaker
experiences with religion were largely positive you know i i had quite i was a quite a strong believer into my i would say early teens which was unusual in my peer group and i now know kind of generally as quite an unusual thing um but it was really my mid-teens um it was just the intellectual arguments for it you know i was i was quite happy willing to you know believe these things and I hope to meet my grandparents one day who died before I was born and all these kind of nice thoughts and I liked the traditions and so on. But it was really just the intellectual argument about the existence of God. I thought to myself, you know,
00:08:43
Speaker
Am I smarter than you know some famous scientists I could name who didn't believe in God? you know Can I claim to know more about the fundamentals of things than they can? or is it a more rational and and, can we say, sort of humble opinion to be just generally quite unsure and doubtful of these ideas? And and that's the position I came to.
00:09:04
Speaker
which is quite a difficult one. you know I took that change of perspective, it was quite hard. you know it was was a lot and It's really an existential crisis and you know at that young age to sort of come come to terms with those kind of things. But anyway, I got involved with the Humanist Society of Scotland because i think one of my main motivations then ah was really that I had spent my entire childhood going through this Catholic education system, which I hasten to add with very good teachers, But one of the things that this education system did or didn't do it rather was give me any exposure to philosophy, know, genuine engagement with other religions or beliefs or just the idea that some of the philosophical and Catholic values you know beliefs that I were taught were not the final answer or disputed or one of many possibilities and so I think that was my real motivation was I felt like I felt a strong injustice that and adults and the government had had conspired to conceal from me a richer education about the philosophy of the world and I was able through various ways to kind of
00:10:11
Speaker
explore that in my own way and and obviously come to the realisation that the humanist worldview is the one that most resonates with me. And and I think what yeah what motivated me to get involved with humanism was a desire to give that to other kids that don't have access to it. So I started working at Humanist Society of Scotland. um one of the first well Eventually, one of the first things I worked towards was one of the first ever judicial reviews of the Scottish Government. So this is when you you take ah a claim in the court and and sue the government essentially because of a violation of policy. So through the Humanist Society of Scotland, we took the Scottish Government to court.
00:10:51
Speaker
saying that the existing laws which require all Catholic schools to have prayers and different things and don't give children the right to opt out of them, or didn't then at least, and was illegal and incompatible with human rights law. So that was a kind of interesting thing. It's ah it's a challenge that the Humanist Society of Scotland continues to to manage. But yeah, that was really my first and kind of inspiration to get involved with humanism. And of course, it eventually ended up and working for Humanists International back in 2017 and that's why I found myself here today.
00:11:23
Speaker
I did not know you were a strong believer, Gary, by the way. This is the first time i'm I'm hearing Gary's full background, know knowing a little bit about it. But that was very interesting to me, but seeing seeing the grandparents later on. Yeah. Well, it happens to the best of us sometimes.
00:11:40
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting because some people have sort of challenged me on that in the past and said, you know, well, did you really believe? And, you know, can you really? And, of course, it's difficult to know because...
00:11:53
Speaker
The idea of belief in God like that seems so anathema to me now that it's difficult to imagine what my sense of thinking about it was back then. but at least I called myself a Catholic. I went to church, you know. um But, you know, did I? I remember actually one of the visions that comes to my head was being in church. It must have been Lent. So, you know, I'd gone to church before school um to do some prayers. And I remember this really strong view. i was in the pew praying.
00:12:20
Speaker
And I didn't feel anything. you know I was saying my prayers and I kept on wanting to feel like the hand of God on my soul or something. And I was looking around the pews at all the different people thinking, wonder if they can really get I wonder if they're really getting it, if they're like talking to God right now and I'm just not doing it enough. And and I think that was probably a little sign that it wasn't for me.
00:12:43
Speaker
Well, I think that's ah so both you very interesting
Humanist Identity and Education
00:12:47
Speaker
stories. I think that ah probably mine is a lot closer to Gary's, though I did stay. i did stay religious for many years after I was a young adult. I didn't start the process of leaving really until I was into my 30s. But yeah, it was... Yeah, it was interesting to hear both of you ah share. And Gary, you mentioned like the the lack of philosophy, lack of exposure to certain kinds of philosophy and to additional ways of thinking. And yeah, remember being in, this is probably news for you. I remember being in seminary as ah in my 20s and reading through these philosophers that had been kind of, I'll say curated. for some of that theological education and noting that, oh, I'm only getting like sections of these flaws. I'm only getting sections of Plato and sections of this. What if I go read the whole thing? Well, you go read the whole Republic. It's quite a different, you know, it's quite a different situation than the the selections that you're given in seminary education. So I, yeah, I can relate to that a bit. And sounds like, Gary, for you, that transition from ah your Catholic education to your young adulthood in ah in Humanist Scotland and then here to Humanist International was your your kind of pathway into Humanist International.
00:14:09
Speaker
Maggie, for yourself, ah you mentioned going to university and joining that Freethinkers Society. ah What were you in university for and how did that kind of transition you ah from the Freethinkers to Humanist International?
00:14:23
Speaker
Yeah, I attended university as a sociology major. I was very interested in learning about social movements and society in general and how that impacts the individual. So I wasn't too interested in psychology, which is what a lot of people study when they go to university, um if they're interested in that.
00:14:42
Speaker
I just found myself again to just be somebody who was so much of a critical thinker. I wanted to understand why things happen the way they did from a societal perspective. You know, why governments are established the way they are. Why do certain social movements work better than others? And when, you know, groups protest, like how is that effective versus other times when they're not effective? And so for me, I think that was a good foundation, again, for exploring further beliefs that I was holding, and then also criticisms of beliefs that were happening at the same time. Also, I would take a little bit of a step back because in high school, I was part of the International Baccalaureate program, Magnet program in the United States, which is a very global sort of magnet, you know, AP level program for students. Dr. Jennifer And one of the classes I took there was called theory of knowledge and so Gary when you were talking about not being exposed to philosophers, I was gratefully exposed to philosophical thinking through this course when I was in high school and I would say that that course in and of itself really helped me explore. different perspectives, different religions, different philosophies, and different ways of thinking. And just being able to question, the whole theme of it was just question everything. And how do we know what we know, you know, epistemology.
00:15:59
Speaker
So I think a lot of that, you know, formed that basis. And You know, I actually went through my freshman year. we There wasn't a free thinker group on campus. So, you know, I'm just sort of learning about what it means to go to college. I was the first in my family to go to college. So I didn't have a lot of mentors or leaders to tell me what college was like. So I just kind of had to learn while I was there. And, you know, just took my classes and sort of explored and made friends and things like that. But it wasn't until my sophomore year when, you know, you have that day where a bunch of student groups are out, they have a table and they're encouraging you to join their club or join their intramural sport. And one of those groups was the Freethinkers. And I'll never forget it because they were all wearing T-shirts that said, got Jesus? Nope. Nope. It was play off of the got milk ads, you know, back in the day. And I just remember thinking, that's me. I don't have Jesus in my life. I had gotten rid of catholic Catholicism and Jesus and all of those beliefs, but I had kept it to myself completely, never told a single soul about it. And it wasn't until I saw them that I said, this is the group I need to be a part of. And I immediately joined. i It became probably the most important thing in college. um you know During my years there, you know I became a vice president of the group you know my senior year. I went and attended a Secular Student Alliance conference during my senior year in Washington, D.C., which exposed me to the wider humanist and atheist movement in the United States.
00:17:26
Speaker
it it really that That was my awakening. That was my... come to humanism moment, as they say, because it was so enlightening to me to know that I was not alone in these beliefs. And not only was I not alone, there was a huge network of people who believe the same things that I believed.
00:17:46
Speaker
Boy, those those got milk knockoff ads and shirts and things, they they never get old, do they? Although I mentioned them now to younger people then they're like, what are you talking about? There was a campaign where you needed to tell people to drink milk. I'm like, yeah, there was.
00:18:02
Speaker
Yeah, i think ah I think I've seen many billboards. I live in a ah largely religious area. I've seen many billboards over the years where ah earnestly it was got Jesus or got church or something like that. And yeah, so it kind of warms my heart a little bit to hear that somebody on the other side was doing the
Leadership in Humanist International
00:18:24
Speaker
same.
00:18:24
Speaker
um And so, Maggie, know that you went also through um through that involvement. I know you went and into American Humanist Association and other organizations. And ah your time at Humanist International has only recently started. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. I was elected president um just last year, last June. um i had served on the board for about a year and a half prior to that. I was elected to the board in 2023 in Copenhagen. Yes.
00:18:54
Speaker
So you are the president of the board of Humus International. Gary, your role is is different. do you mind telling a bit about what your role is? Sure. I'm the chief executive um or sometimes called executive director or general secretary. So and I'm ah basically tasked with managing the personnel team um and kind of doing the day to day management of Humanist International. supporting Maggie and the board um and yeah just making sure the day-to-day operations of the organization are running making sure that the strategy which is set by the board informed by the members is implemented and and yeah just doing the day-to-day management really
00:19:38
Speaker
Okay. So for our listeners who might not be as familiar with Humanist International as an organization, and they may have seen um American Humanist Association or American Atheist content, or may have seen hopefully seen Humanist Canada content if they're on our podcast, Humanist International has been around for for quite a while. It's been around since 1952, I think, but it was called something different at the time.
00:20:03
Speaker
That's right. Yeah, we we were formed in 1952, although the organization's roots go back way further. I mean, and we've got a page on our website, actually, which I would encourage people to check out. um But basically, that there was an organization before 1952 which existed, the World Union of Freethinkers, and goes back.
00:20:24
Speaker
think all way back to the 1880s. And and humanists that organisation was, as so many things were, kind of devastated in the middle of the 20th century with the two world wars and the massive you know combat of the different ideologies. and And so what emerged in 1952 was a reinvigoration of that and in 1952. So we were called the International Humanist and Ethical Union, IHU. So when I started in 2017, I was employed by IHU.
00:20:56
Speaker
and We had a youth organization, which was called the International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organization, which was called IHEO. And it was no surprise that these very strange acronyms were a rather a barrier to people attending their first General Assembly when they didn't know what an IHU or an IHAO was.
00:21:13
Speaker
and So in 2019, we changed their name to Humanists International. but To be honest, that one of the things that makes me most proud to work for Humanists International is its historical pedigree. I mean, it's a really remarkable organisation. mean, you could say in many ways, one of the first ever human rights organisations in the world.
00:21:33
Speaker
and You know, we were founded by and many eminent people that went on to play a major role in the United Nations. So, for example, and I think it's five of the first general secretaries of the UN agencies were humanists, and including our founding president, Julian Huxley, Aldous's brother, and who was in the founding Congress of Humanists International and then went on to serve as the first director of UNESCO. and So Humanists International and humanism in general played a massive influential role in the setting up of these post-war human rights, rules-based systems. And and I think it reflects the optimistic but kind of human-centered nature of humanism that having realized that, you know, what had happened um in the middle of the 20th century, realizing that the only way of preventing these things happening in the future is human action in the here and now and and rules and systems that can increase cooperation, diplomacy, communication, collaboration in the here and now. And so, I mean, a system which, as I'm sure we'll talk about, is coming under more strain than ever before. but a remarkable history with which to be associated. And maybe maybe just to lean in a bit to the optimistic nature of our founders, and one ah Maggie was in Amsterdam last week and visiting ah the Humanist Association in Amsterdam, which was one of the five organisations along with the American Humanist Association that founded us back in the 1950s. So we were kind of based in Amsterdam for for quite a while at the beginning. and their founding president was also our founding president, Yap van Praag, and he said that he wanted humanism to be the official religion of the United Nations. Now, there's a bit to unpack here because, of course, as we know, humanism is not a religion, but that's probably a mistranslation of life stance or something similar, but that was the bold vision, was that we should be
00:23:26
Speaker
ah We should give people a positive, rational worldview, ah ah you know ah ah a lens through which to experience reality, which is positive, optimistic, human rights based, equality based. And and that was the kind of the grand vision. It'll be for others to decide how far we've done with that. But yeah, an incredible legacy.
00:23:46
Speaker
Yeah, and just to add with what Gary was saying, you know, when we think about Humanists International today and how strong it is, you know, under Gary's leadership with a number of folks on staff with ah a really robust board and, you know, over 130 member organizations and associates around the world, in over 60 countries, that's an incredible achievement. And, you know, I only wish I could have been back there thinking, you know, what would they think of us now? Still standing strong, still being the only organization of its kind. We are the global body representative of humanism in the world. um And it's very hard to establish groups like ours that work in coalition, that gather groups together of varying you know, languages of
Global Humanism and Its Impact
00:24:35
Speaker
cultures. It's not always easy to do that, but Humanist International does it in this incredible way because we all come together with this vision and this goal of of of uplifting humanism and encouraging humanism around the world in every country where it's particularly needed. So I think it's an incredible achievement to be where we are today, considering how we were founded back in the 50s. And as Gary alluded to, especially right now, it seems more timely than ever. in the rise of authoritarianism, fascism, isolationism.
00:25:06
Speaker
Humanist International as a coalition of all of these organizations, it's an incredible achievement just to exist. and And not only that, again, we have incredible impact with our Freedom of Thought report, our many programs, um the ways in which we're helping support the growth of new member organizations and humanist groups around the world. We're the only one of its kind. And so it's incredibly important for everyone. If you're a humanist, if this is something that you care about, to care about global humanism and working to make the world a better place.
00:25:37
Speaker
Really well said, Maggie. I think that one of the things that makes me the most excited in ah when I'm talking to humanists, when i'm talking to folks like yourselves who do this kind of work, is how global-minded you are and how all-encompassing the worldview and the vision is. And ah i remember, Gary, at one of our first meetings, one the first times we had a conversation when we were discussing, as we'll get to later, that the World Humanist Congress. um
00:26:10
Speaker
I remember talking with with all of you and we were going back and forth about different ideas for the for the Congress. um It seems to me that the...
00:26:22
Speaker
ah The overriding factor that we have to remember is that we're all in this together, is that we're you know we're we're a human race. That in 20,000 years, there's not going to be ah a white race or a Filipino race or a Chinese race or or an African race. There's going to be the human race or there won't be.
00:26:45
Speaker
And whether or not that comes to comes to fruition is up to us here and now. And hearing you both talk about your work and your vision and your optimism, ah it's it's making me feel more optimistic, you know, on a Monday morning when there's lots going on in the world. i hope our listeners feel more optimistic listening to you. And I hope that we can turn that optimism into action because that's that's the point.
00:27:14
Speaker
I appreciate that so much, Daniel. You're exactly right about turning optimism and hope into action. None of this really matters if you're not somebody who is willing to recognize what's going on and deciding to do something about it. And that doing something doesn't have to be big. I think sometimes people feel very overwhelmed about what's going on in the news and what's going on around the world. And they think, well, I'm just one person.
00:27:39
Speaker
How am I going to make a difference? But if a million people think that way and do something, that's a million people taking action. And that's a huge difference. So it really matters what you do. And if it means simply just talking to someone and saying, hey, I'm a member of this humanist group or.
00:27:57
Speaker
posting something on social media about the news, criticizing you know this administration in the United States or other administrations that are clearly not following the rule of law, that makes a difference because other people are reading it, they're seeing it, and they're thinking to themselves,
00:28:12
Speaker
Hmm, this is maybe something I want to explore and think about. And that's all it takes. And so I want people to truly feel that if you're a member of Humanist International, if you're supporting our work, if you're supporting your local humanist group, that is a huge difference because collectively we can really make a difference.
00:28:32
Speaker
And especially since the ah the non-religious is the fastest growing demographic group in many countries, ah you know in in Canada as well, we went from 17% to 36% in 20 years. and But not all of those people who are either growing up in non-religious homes or or leaving religion in their lives, not all of them start taking social action or say, well, I'm a humanist now, I'm going to go do something about you know the state of the world.
00:29:00
Speaker
All of them just go on existing. And I would love to reach more of those people with messages like the ones you guys are sharing and um and encourage them to start taking some of those actions.
Freedom of Thought and Political Climate
00:29:11
Speaker
And speaking of some of those actions, ah very recently, Humanist International just ah stepped forward with its flagship publication, if I can call it that. And I actually watched your live stream. and was cheering quietly at at different points. um And the Freedom of Thought Report, which I believe is a yearly, is it yearly or is it bi-yearly?
00:29:35
Speaker
Yearly, yeah. Okay, so the Freedom of Thought Report ah just came out, and I think it's an incredibly important publication. I was hoping that you could both tell our audience a bit about it and how it's constructed and and why it's so critical. Yeah, so the the Freedom of Thought report is our, as you say, flagship publication. It's in its 14th edition now and it's a really important piece of research that surveys every single country in the world and publishes research about the law and policy as it relates to the treatment of humanists and atheists in all these different countries. But of course, in doing so, we don't just research on what the situation is for humanists and atheists, but for all religious minorities, because one of the things that Humanist International advocates for is freedom of religion or belief for everybody, not just for humanists. and So, yeah, as you mentioned, that we we published the report just recently, the Key Countries Edition. But one important point to make is that the report is actually updated on an ongoing annual basis. So if you Google Freedom of Thought report, you can view it. It's kind of like a Wikipedia page, so every country has an update it has an entry which is updated on a regular basis. and But what we do is ah every year we take a snapshot of where the report's at and we publish that as an opportunity to get attention for the report and to discuss some of the findings. so So the research that we published this year, and basically the topic was on the freedom the right to freedom of religion or belief in a world of rising authoritarianism. So we've surveyed many different countries and we've published our top 10 countries for this year in the key countries edition. And we've also published a watch list of 10 additional countries that have not been updated for this year's report, but we're concerned about the development in those countries. And so we're basically keeping an eye on them on the watch list. So It's really, mean, it makes for quite scary reading. We were talking about things like far right and populist governments using religion as a political tool to advance their ambitions and to silence other groups in society. and It's really, yeah I mean, it points to a lot of the worrying trends that I think
00:31:43
Speaker
activists in different spaces are discussing. and But we're very, very pleased to have published the report. and Alongside it, we had ah contributions from the UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion or Belief, as well as the Head of Human Rights at the European External Action Service. and We also had a video contribution from Congressman Jared Huffman from the Congressional Freethought Caucus. so I think one of the things that we can be very proud of is the fact that Humanists International's research is very thorough, up to date. This report will be getting cited in parliaments, governments, by different NGOs across the world, and it will stand up to that rigorous scrutiny. And it's shining a light really on the areas of concern that we need to all be paying attention to.
00:32:23
Speaker
One of which is the United States, as Gary says. wasn't alluding to directly, but but we were listed. And again, as i'm and ah as an American, i'm I'm very sad about that, but very important that we need to highlight what's going on in the United States. But but you know for many, many years, we you know I think we enjoyed actually sticking to the US Constitution, ah Constitution and being able to have freedom of speech and freedom of thought and freedom of of of expression. And, you know, we're obviously seeing it here where that's, that's in danger of of being lost. And so I think that, again, you know, the Freedom of Thought report is and it's so important to highlight these. So even in countries where we did enjoy all of those freedoms, it it could get lost at any time.
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, that's I recall from your announcement, ah Maggie, I think you mentioned that you were going to be flying back to DC and you were a little concerned about you know getting through customs and getting through you know some with some of those conversations. Why were you traveling internationally? Oh, to be an atheist professionally?
00:33:27
Speaker
you know that now that could be uh could be bit of a red flag it's so sad it's something i never used to think about at all and and yeah you know that's that's really stressful right i mean when we think about being a humanist and an atheist in countries where it's essentially illegal to do so. i mean, that carries a huge burden on you, right? And it's not something that that, mean, this is why we fight for freedom. You know, everyone should have the right to believe and not believe what they want and to not have to carry the stresses and difficulties and worry of discrimination or even death or, or you know, because simply be for being who you are. And the fact that even I have to think about that now, again, in a country where we enjoyed these freedoms with without any worry, it's it's very scary. And it's it's actually a little new to me personally. um But, you know, i I'm also somebody who's very strong in my convictions. And I'm i'm also ready to take on anything that may happen and because of how important humanism is to me. um So i'm I'm ready to be strong. I'm ready to fight back. And I hope that others are as well.
00:34:34
Speaker
And that speaks a bit to something else that's going on, something else that's coming up this summer, which is the World Humanist Congress. And Maggie, you mentioned that you're you know you're ready to take these things on, you're ready to stand up for humanism because of what it means, not just for you, but as a way of standing up for that pluralistic public square, standing up for the rights, as as Gary said, not just of humanists and atheists, but of everybody to have freedom of thought, freedom of religion to to do and to be as they wish. And the theme for the Congress this year coming up is humanism as resistance.
00:35:10
Speaker
And ah I think that what you're talking about now really kind of fits into that. And ah the Congress was going to be in Washington, D.C., but was relocated to ah Ottawa, Canada. um Do you ah do either you want to make a comment on that? Or is that just kind of ah going without saying now as to why that happened?
00:35:33
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think Gary can talk a little bit more about this as well. I mean, I think it came to some practical reasonings, right? I mean, we recognize that this administration currently was looking to restrict um types of folks from certain countries just to come to the United States for visiting. It would be difficult for people to get visas. And the fact of the matter is, you know especially at the time, I mean, Washington, D.C., and we still are you know under National Guard. um you know we have We still have National Guard soldiers stationed all across the city.
00:36:05
Speaker
And it's it's not always safe for lots of types of people um to be here. I don't blame them. There's a number of people who are not interested in coming to Washington, D.C. any further um so that we're not showing any kind of support for what's happening in the administration. So I totally understand that. So I think that that was a factor. um I think we're very grateful that Humanist Canada is is willing, was willing to come up and host and and help support um the the the Congress being hosted in Ottawa.
00:36:36
Speaker
I'm so excited to go to Canada um for lots of reasons. Canada is wonderful. um And if I need to seek asylum, they might be my first country. But, you know, i just think that it's going to be a wonderful time for people to get together. It was still very important for um for us to hold a World Humanist Congress again. you know, nothing's ever going to stop that. So whether it's in the United States or anywhere else, it was going to be held. We were going to stand in solidarity. We were going to stand strong together and we were going to fight back. But I think there were some practical reasons behind
00:37:08
Speaker
holding it in a different place where people can be free it was easier to get to and that we didn't want to put people at risk because when it comes to get down to it safety first for everyone um we believe that people need to make decisions on their own um regarding their own safety and we wanted to make sure we we supported that opportunity but very excited about coming to ottawa and bringing so many people together thanks maggie gary anything to add to that Yeah, I mean, I guess just like Maggie said, I mean, essentially the position that we came to was that it simply wasn't viable to host a Congress in DC. You know, this decision would have been made and probably around about May last year. And, you know, people would have been seeing on their phones news of university academics being pulled aside. And and You know, there was some, I know, payer denied entry to the country because of a tweet and all different things. So and it just simply would not be possible to host a World Humanist Congress in a climate like that. and
00:38:07
Speaker
You know, and and of course, we we also don't know that, you know, could, you know, the entire US visa system just be turned off and after one social media post from the president. So it it just was not viable to host the Congress, unfortunately. So and But yeah, we've been working really closely with Humanist Canada. It's been very, very exciting. It's been an incredible sort of um very short time in which to organize a Congress. But and we actually, the early bird discount expired on Saturday there. And we had a target of about 300 tickets to be sold, and aiming for 500 tickets in total. And we've beat that by 18. So 318 tickets sold. And we did realize, I think, when we had our planning meeting last November that the biggest risk I think we face now is and overselling the tickets or or rather running out of space. So that's a good problem to have. And I think people are very, very keen to get together and to have this conversation about humanism as resistance and to take stock of where we are, to inspire each other, to take heart from the you know the necessary challenges that lie ahead. And it' it's going to be a really exciting time. Great.
00:39:13
Speaker
i I agree it's going to be a really exciting time. where're We're really looking forward to having you all. I'm looking forward to maybe meeting you in person, which would be ah which would be very nice. And... um You know, I think it's ah i think it's interesting how the you know you made the comments about people coming into the country could be finding challenging if they're coming from you know coming from countries where there's maybe negative thoughts about visas being applied or or immigration. um And a lot of those countries historically have had people maybe ah for human rights reasons, fleeing to the United States. so
00:39:51
Speaker
So it's a very sudden change. It's a very disturbing trend. And you both mentioned, I think, at different points in this interview, the the rise of fascism again, the rise of these alt-right groups. I feel like some people didn't watch enough Indiana Jones movies when they were young, and it's really showing now. ah Or Star Wars, to Or Star Wars. I'm very confused. I know. Who is the Empire? We know who the Empire Have either of you seen ah the new Knives Out movie, the though a Wake Up Dead Man?
00:40:27
Speaker
I haven't yet, but it's on my list for sure. I love the Knives Out movies. They're great. great so there is a there's a reference to Star Wars in there that, Maggie, I think that you will absolutely love having heard you just said. I'm not going to spoil it for you. and i actually found that the movie was a very cathartic watch ah for for myself as ah as a humanist. um And as someone who was once religious as the two main characters, one as a priest and one as ah an atheist. And i I think it's a wonderful movie. So everybody should go watch it. But that's getting us off track. I do agree with you, though. The the number of Star Wars fans out there who don't seem to understand ah what they're looking at in the United States is and around the world is is really troubling. Yeah.
00:41:15
Speaker
But i can't i you know i can't go on that trend too much. I'm more of a Star Trek person myself. so You know, and i I think I'm not, I sometimes don't always call myself a good humanist because I don't watch Star Trek and didn't watch Star Trek at all. I think I saw maybe a couple of episodes and it just wasn't for me.
00:41:42
Speaker
But um yeah, that's something when I was working at the American Human Association, folks would tease me about because they're like, why aren't you watching Star Trek? And i'm like, I don't know. It's just, it's, Sci-fi, which I wasn't too into sci-fi, but I don't know. Now I feel like I, in order to be a good, there's a, there's a list of things to make you a good humanist. And I think one of them is you have to watch Star Trek. And so I'm going to work on that.
00:42:03
Speaker
Well, there's no time like the present. I noticed Gary's being really suspiciously quiet while we're talking about science fiction. i don't know if we should put him on the spot or not. Well, I'm quite a fan of both, to be very honest. and i think Captain Janeway is my all-time Star Trek hero. think she's very strong leader and has a sort of um lovely appetite for coffee, which I also see within myself. But I think i think it is a worrying thing. I mean, I'm quite interested in the kind of psychology of the political climate at the moment. And one of the things I think, I mean, there's a lot going on. It's probably a lot too much to unpack right now. But I think one of the things that's that's going on at the moment is clearly some sort of post ironic culture, which we found ourselves in, certainly in the Anglosphere of, you know, and also i think that's also kind of mirrored in some way by the and conspiracy theory culture. both of which fall prey to the idea that there is this kind of very clear machinery of action which is going on. know, there's people in charge behind the scenes, you know, men in grey suits and worse, and and that somehow...
00:43:11
Speaker
individual action, like Maggie was saying, is impervious to this kind of apparatus of the deep state or whatever, into your conspiracy theory of choice. And I think one of the things that we can bring to that conversation as humanists is a realization that, but which is a scary and also an enlightening thought, which is, it is just us.
00:43:30
Speaker
It's just people. There is no secret scary system of UFOs or, you know, whatever. It's actually just people in rooms making decisions and the people are in the rooms because you voted for them.
00:43:42
Speaker
And so that's why it's important to remember that the people that you vote to put in those rooms try and pick sensible ones, you know, that have ah a coherent worldview and want to do well for the world and not just line their own pockets. But I think i think that is it's a challenge in times like this because...
00:43:57
Speaker
you You already mentioned, Daniel, the kind of nihilistic streak that we can see in certain aspects of our of our culture.
Humanism's Role and Future Challenges
00:44:04
Speaker
And again, to go back to the founding of Humanists International, one of the things that Yap Van Praag said at the founding Congress of Humanists International, what, 74 years ago now, was humanism has two problems.
00:44:16
Speaker
The first is the problem that we talk about in the Freedom of Thought report or what's happening in US foreign policy. It's the day-to-day issues of human rights, equality, right and wrong, and so on.
00:44:27
Speaker
That, to his and his view, was the small problem, the day-to-day problem of progress progress. He said the big problem, the second big problem, is nihilism. Now, he was speaking, obviously, as a European who just went through world War II and the atrocities.
00:44:42
Speaker
But in his view, the lack of an anchoring, grounding worldview and a purpose and meaning that we all have to seek within ourselves as humanists was by far the biggest fear. And I think...
00:44:53
Speaker
When we look at some of the kind of pervasive culture that we see coming from like the tech sphere and, you know, this kind of long termism, the, you know, don't worry if we mess up the planet because we can have our escape pods in New Zealand or whatever. That kind of culture permeates through into our popular culture and it's anathema to the idea of a kind human based progress that humanists call for.
00:45:14
Speaker
That was perfectly said, Gary. Thank you I agree. And you mentioned the escape pod kind of mentality. And ah I've been seeing so many more ads for bunkers and things like that on on my my social media. I know they're kind of algorithm driven. I haven't been searching for it. i don't know if it's just like, maybe my phone is sophisticated enough to pick up on the stress and my sweat or something. But I've been getting those ads a lot more lately. And they've really bothered they've really bothered me ah
00:45:47
Speaker
And I think that Gary, you touched on one of the reasons why it's that it's not, ah those things aren't going to be what saves humanity, you know, like Mark Zuckerberg and his kids going into a bunker and eating beans for 20 years and then coming out and like ruling the world or whatever. I'm not really sure what the plan is. Like that's not actually going to work, especially if there's nobody to to rule or to have an algorithm to sell them things to.
00:46:13
Speaker
um It's going to work with things like community gardens. And knowing who in your neighborhood sew canvas if you need them to. and knowing who has a really good water filtration system. And like David Suzuki, the Canadian scientist said, you know we're we're past the point of no return with a lot of climate change milestones. Now we're in a position where we have to start looking to communities and saying, who is gonna be able to take care of ah each other? Who is gonna be able to um you know have the resources to support each other and who won't? Who do we need to take care of? It goes back to just being communities. um And I think that's a really strong thread that both of you have been pulling on, which I appreciate. I think that's one of the reasons why Humanist International is so important, why humanist groups are so important.
00:47:02
Speaker
It's all about building community. We can talk about growing humanism and the philosophy and human rights and all of those pieces. Those are very important, incredibly important. But that human human connection, that the way in which we help each other and support each other, i think is so core to humanism and core to the organizations that we established. they They really started because we wanted to make sure that people didn't feel like they were alone in their minds.
00:47:28
Speaker
And that we together, when we can come together, we can make the world a better place. We can help our communities grow and we can survive. Because when it comes down to it, humanity will only survive when we're in community together.
00:47:44
Speaker
it Very well said. So as we're coming closer to the end of our time, I thought I'd ask, what are some of your priorities for Humanist International over the next five, 10 years?
Future Directions and Closing Remarks
00:47:56
Speaker
Yeah, for myself as president, it really comes down to certainly increasing the number of humanist groups that we have around the world. um You know, we fluctuated in numbers all throughout the years. The more that we have, the better. I want more voices, particularly in countries where it's very difficult to be a humanist or an atheist. um You know, I think there's ah growth in Asia in particular, where, you know, largely there's a number of countries there that tend to be secular or non-religious, but the existence of humanist groups aren't really there. And I think there's a lot of factors related to that. But one of the things that we need to do as an organization is, is again, get ourselves out there a lot more and remind people that being in community and establishing these these groups, even if you live in a largely secular society, is really important because, as you can see in the United States,
00:48:45
Speaker
you know, a lot of your rights, a lot of a lot of these things that you enjoyed for so many years could go away. And so we need groups to help protect these rights, um whether you live in a in a friendly country or not. And so for me, I think it's really important that we do that. I think it's important that we use opportunities like the World Humanist Congress to get together, but also help train and and help build bring forth leaders of the humanist movement in the future. You know, we have we have board members who represent a number of countries around the world. And i want to continue to diversify our board and diversify our leadership at Humanist International so that we're getting perspectives from all different types of you know all different parts of the world and making sure that we're not always having a
00:49:29
Speaker
You know, ah you know, which tends to happen, you know, just because of the way we are established sort of a Western based thinking um with the with the work that we do. We want to make sure that we're speaking to groups in the global south and learning about their challenges. You know, they have a number of challenges that are quite different from what's happening in North America and Europe. And I think that's really important. So for me, it's it's about growth. But at the same time, it's all about the quality of growth when it comes to helping foster the next generation of humanist leaders from around the world.
00:49:59
Speaker
Thank you, Mickey. I think for me, the priorities as I see it um is making sure that we can find more, better, innovative ways to make sure that our members are at the heart of everything that we do. You know, we have a lot more technologies now, and a lot more access to different types of communication. We've just started our own podcast at Humanists International, Freedom of Thought, which you can download. The latest episode with me and Maggie this week. and So yeah, trying to find more ways to get members to be really at the heart of the organisation and influencing everything that we do.
00:50:33
Speaker
think the second one would be trying to find where we can maximise our efforts and multiply our efforts with partnership working with other NGOs, different belief groups, religious groups.
00:50:44
Speaker
coalition building at the United Nations, working with you know state governments and other parties to make sure that with our modest resources that we can maximize our impact.
00:50:54
Speaker
and And I think the third one for me, as is always the case, is finding money, finding money and resources and work that that can help support what the amazing team at Humanists International does. I always always like to remind people when we're talking about the work that Humanists International does that we we have around 10 staff that run this entire organization that do everything that you see coming out of the organization. And people are often quite surprised by that. They imagine we might have 100 or so, but it's 10 people that work very, very hard to make sure this organization is running. And we try wherever we can to find donors, supporters, people to collaborate with so that we can ah maximize that impact.
00:51:32
Speaker
Well, if anybody who is listening to this show is a multimillionaire and is looking for a way to reduce their taxes, I think that donating to Humanist International and Humanist Canada would be two really good ways to do so.
00:51:47
Speaker
Absolutely. Email me and I will buy you a coffee. it's It's worth it. And to come join us in Ottawa for the World Humanist Congress. um So as we're coming to the end of our time, i just wanted to kind of wrap up by saying thank you both for being here. um Humanism is a really interesting ah life stance, as I've as i think i've heard it called but by yourselves and and by others. And um every time somebody that I know, either someone who knew me when I was religious and is trying to figure me out now, or somebody new that I meet,
00:52:25
Speaker
asks me to define humanism and I do they sometimes come back later and say well i found another definition online and it's different and we kind of talk a little bit um it can be a little tricky to pin down or to define since there's so many different people involved and there's so much history it might be easier if we had like a really dogmatic like holy text maybe we can workshop that a little bit later I'm not sure what you feel about it um But one of the common threads that I've seen in these definitions and and and in what you've been saying and what I've been hearing from both of you for for months is the simple idea that we're all in this together.
00:52:58
Speaker
um you know Maybe individually we are ah small and don't have a lot of influence, but collectively as individuals, um we we can make a difference. it's it's like ah It's like a boat going across a river.
00:53:12
Speaker
And ah you know it's it's got it's got momentum, it's going across the river, and we might not be able to ah to stop it, but we could certainly push on one side of the boat to direct it towards ah ah one way or the other. And if humanity is the boat and there's a good future in one direction and a less good future in the other direction, and then it's important to find as many people as possible who are going to push on the the correct side of the boat so we wind up at that good future together. and Even though we can't predict what the future is going to bring, we can try to face it together. Having gotten to know both you a little bit, I'm really, ah really glad and grateful to be pushing on the same side of the boat with you.
00:53:54
Speaker
Wow, that was well said, Daniel. Thank you so much. I might steal that boat analogy. Please do. That was lovely. Thank you so much. And yes, thank you so much for your time. And thank you to Humanist Canada. We're so excited about the World Humanist Congress. Very excited. And just really looking forward to just being in person with people. I i find that to be just so joyous um to be able to see and meet people that we've been communicating with online for some time and to see them in real life, I think is just a joy. So thank you.
00:54:23
Speaker
I agree. Yeah, thanks, Daniel. That was very well put. and I think the only thing I would add is we have on our website what's called the Declaration of Modern Humanism that was last updated in 2022 with a sort four point ah summary of humanism, which might be interesting to some of your listeners. But yes. I look forward to seeing you and all of your listeners at the World Humanist Congress in Ottawa. And if they haven't bought their ticket already, which I'm sure they all have, then they should make sure to do it ASAP so they don't miss out.
00:54:53
Speaker
Thank you both so much and have a great rest of your day. Thanks again. Thanks, Daniel.
00:55:01
Speaker
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00:55:21
Speaker
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