Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Episode 14 - An Interview with Steve Ghikadis & Gretta Vosper
96 Plays4 months ago
This episode is the first of a series from Humanist Canada’s own Steve Ghikadis. This series, brought to us by the Voice of Humanist Canada, focuses on prominent voices in the Canadian secular humanist community.
Today we feature Gretta Vosper. Gretta is an author, activist and ordained minister of the United Church of Canada, a member of Humanist Canada and a self-professed atheist. Her beliefs or lack thereof, caused controversy both within and outside of the United Church. In 2016, following a certain incident, her public statement that the belief in a supernatural God sometimes promoted hatred, led the United Church of Canada to institute an official review of her suitability as a minister. In 2018, Gretta was allowed to keep her position, but under sanctions by the United Church. Gretta is a much loved member of Humanist Canada.
Recommended
Transcript
Surprise Heresy Law
00:00:01
Speaker
naivety or what never occurred to me that my denomination would come up with a heresy law so they could try me.
Podcast Introduction
00:00:10
Speaker
like
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada.
Humanism From the Heart
00:00:27
Speaker
Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens. Welcome to the conversation.
Introducing Greta Blosper
00:00:43
Speaker
You were listening to Humanism from the Heart, a segment that focuses on prominent voices in the secular humanist community. I'm your host, Steve Ducatis, and today on the program we are speaking to Greta Blosper. Greta is an author, activist, and ordained minister of the United Church of Canada, who is a self-professed atheist. Her
Greta's Review by the Church
00:01:00
Speaker
beliefs, or lack thereof, cause controversy both within and outside of the United Church. In 2016, following a certain incident, her public statement that the belief in a supernatural God sometimes promoted hatred led the United Church of Canada to institute an official review of her suitability as a minister. In 2018, Greta was allowed to keep her position but under sanctions by the United Church. Thank you
Clarifying Greta's Story
00:01:22
Speaker
for joining us today, Greta.
00:01:23
Speaker
It's wonderful to be with you, Steve. Thanks for inviting me. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. um I do feel like we just need to discuss that that intro a little bit because as we were talking beforehand, you said there there should be some alterations to that or some some continued information. So can you just take it away and let me know what needs to be stated in that?
Church Membership and Faith
00:01:43
Speaker
It's a complicated ah issue um because most people think of a church as a place that has a statement of faith that everyone believes in and that clergy have to ascribe to that statement of faith or they can't be clergy. ah Indeed, sometimes members can't be members if they don't ascribe to a particular statement of faith.
Formation of the United Church
00:02:03
Speaker
The United Church came together as three denominations back in 1925, and it took years for them to come to an agreement in 1925 that they could all live with. And that agreement ah meant that agreement was only arrived at when the denominations, which were arguing about a statement of faith and could not come to any agreement, um someone suggested that they require that clergy only be an essential agreement.
Regional Faith Testing Variations
00:02:30
Speaker
So they had these three different statements of faith,
00:02:32
Speaker
which they brought together in this amalgam and then clergy from then on had to essentially agree with it. They couldn't, they didn't have to agree with absolutely everything. And and people were tested for appropriateness as clergy by small communities in their, small groups of people in their communities,
Greta's Progressive Faith Background
00:02:52
Speaker
right? So someone being tested in Saskatchewan, which was a very progressive area in terms of faith, ah maybe asked completely different questions and have a really different requirement than somebody in the Maritimes or in British Columbia. So you had a very ah vibrant understanding of faith across the denomination. um When my
00:03:16
Speaker
um when my When I was tested, I mean, I had a very um progressive understanding of faith. um I had been taught the most critical scholarship that was available at the time. I had been raised with a with a Sunday school curriculum that didn't talk about Jesus as being God. um So it was very progressive. But um but when the United Church decided that they didn't like the fact that I actually said my understanding of God is not an understanding of a being,
00:03:47
Speaker
which meant I was an atheist, i mean they decided that they would make a denomination-wide ruling.
Impact of Belief Changes on Church
00:03:55
Speaker
which said that every clergy person needed to believe in God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Well, that's not what I was raised with. That's not what I was tested on for my ordination. That's not the how I led ministry. And so I failed that test, but I was allowed to stay in my congregation. um And that has changed the nature of ministry in the United Church dramatically. And it was not done in a way I think that was appropriate. um There was no
00:04:24
Speaker
you know the denomination didn't have that discussion. It was two administrators who had that discussion and changed that. so it's it's I have deep sorrow about that, that my belief system triggered that change in the United Church. I'm not surprised. I was surprised at the
Church as Community Hub
00:04:43
Speaker
time. I'm not really surprised now looking back at it, but I think it was a huge loss for the denomination and for many people who look to the denomination for a place where they could do the work of falling in love with being together, which is what I think church should be all about. So anyway, so that's that's how that happened and the logistics of it, which are not very entertaining, but um important.
00:05:07
Speaker
Right. Now, thank you so much for sharing all that because that is something that you don't normally hear in the news. You just hear, yay, you won and you got to keep your spot. But you didn't get to to hear the the rest of that. So it's nice that you were able to share that with the the wide audience that we have.
Evolving Church Dynamics
00:05:21
Speaker
um You did mention that church is a place of gathering and and for people and and you know the statistics say as well that you know usually people attend church, not for theological reasons, but for the community that it actually brings. So um I wonder if you know maybe that is um
00:05:38
Speaker
what brought people to your church when you came out as as an atheist or or you know what what they they said was an atheist you know when it came to your your lack of belief in God being an actual being? Do you think that was the case, that it was a community thing? I think that church is always a community thing. I think that that's that that's ah an essential element ah for denominational vibrance and congregational life in itself. And I think that um We're losing a lot of that, but in the in the past that has been um what has really allowed us um the strength to become the democracy we are because we have people who were
00:06:20
Speaker
together talking about important things, whether they were faith related, whether they were about the the new teacher in the kindergarten at the public school, whether they were about, you know, who wasn't mowing their lawns, they were talking with each other about things and they were engaged about
Loss and Rebuilding of Congregation
00:06:35
Speaker
what was happening in their communities. And and that was often brought about because of the relationships that people had in congregations.
00:06:41
Speaker
um even if there were four different denominations within walking distance of where you lived, people were going there that were having those conversations. And and I'm not talking just just Christian churches, but synagogues and and more recently mosques, but um not so much when I was growing up. So anyway, I think that the the the rubbing shoulders and having those conversations so was central to democracy.
00:07:04
Speaker
And I think that we're losing some of that. And I've lost track of what the question was, Steve. Cause I've gone on. Blah, blah, blah. It's great. It was about it being community and you answered that question perfectly. Right, right. But it didn't grow. Our community did not really grow around the atheist connection. I mean, we had been on this journey for a very long time, probably about 10 years before the whole controversy around my um expression of belief as an atheist um came out.
00:07:33
Speaker
and And that caused a number of changes in the congregation. um I mean, if you've been in a church recently, you wouldn't be singing songs that don't talk about God or Jesus or something. um And we were moving away from all of those. Our liturgy was changing. Our use of the Bible was changing. um And so at one point, there was a significant shift that we had made, and I can't even remember which one it was.
00:07:57
Speaker
um It might have been the decision to no longer use scriptural scripture as the exclusively thing that we were offering as as sources of wisdom in our services. And we troft out 75% of the congregation, like we just lost 75% of the congregation at that point in time.
Community Over Belief
00:08:15
Speaker
Um, but it was still the right thing to do. And i I think that's, I had leaders at that time in the congregation who were willing to walk that road, uh, and, and lose that ah amount. You know, those, those people that they had traveled for a long time with those, the, the community that had been, they were, they were willing to risk that to take this experiment forward.
00:08:43
Speaker
um and to let go of the language of God and hold on to the to that elements of community that were so important. um so We troft out, as I say, like so many people in the congregation and then began to build back from that. and As we became known, um we built a fairly vibrant congregation. um it's not It's not huge, it's a small congregation at this point in time that meets mostly by Zoom.
00:09:11
Speaker
um But it was a it was a fairly you know significant, vibrant congregation that was willing to hang on to what they believed or what they didn't um and be very clear about that um within the wider church.
00:09:27
Speaker
And I remember reading um articles about that. I'm not sure if it was afterwards or during this happening. I remember it being like a big um loss of of people, or maybe it was even in your in your talk at Baja Khan. And you talked about the people that left.
00:09:42
Speaker
um I have been in a church recently. My wife is is is part of the United Church and her family um is is big into the church. um So we do go once in a while. I'll go with once in a while with her. We do also go and attend Sunday assembly in Detroit. So it's like a non-theistic congregation, which basically celebrates, you know, life, it which is basically the community aspect that everyone's kind of looking for, or the people that look for community are looking for.
Declining Religious Affiliation in Canada
00:10:11
Speaker
um But I did notice in the church that it is very, very religious now. So I actually wrote an article on Medium called, I have a secret, but don't worry, they won't listen anyway. And it's all about how
00:10:23
Speaker
if they if they relaxed on the religion side of things they would probably keep their congregation longer and they would probably have a bigger congregation and it would probably stick around because the the problem is is that they're focusing on the belief and not the community aspect they don't really care about the people it seems that they just care about getting the message out there and there seem to be losing a lot of people as you probably know like the population of canada the the demographics when it comes to religion is 34.6 and that's just the people that are out about their lack of belief because i'm sure As you know, there's a lot of people that hide their belief. um And there was another study done in 2023. And it was an international study. And it said that it's closer to 44% that they they found that are not affiliated with any religion. And that number just
Perceived vs. Actual Religious Adherence
00:11:05
Speaker
seems to be growing and growing. So um what do you think about that? If I went up and down my street, i I don't know that I'd find five people on my block that go to church regularly at all. So I think those numbers are very low.
00:11:20
Speaker
Yeah, they yeah, for sure. Because they say one in three Canadians are non-believers, but I would say nine out of 10 Canadians I run into are non-believers. And I live in like the Bible Belt. I'm down in Windsor, really close to the American border. And it's a very big farm country down here. It's very, very religious, but everybody I talk to is like, nah, I'm not really religious,
Message vs. Community Focus
00:11:39
Speaker
or I don't go to church. or Anything like that, you know, so I don't run into a lot of religious people. And I'm just wondering if that's something that you think is also true, or is this just me thinking this, that it's the messaging that's that's gotten the problem? Like you're focusing too much on the message and not allowing people to just be people.
Theology Shifts in the United Church
00:11:57
Speaker
um ah I'm going to say some very, very controversial things here. and Nothing new for me, but these are criticisms of my, um not criticisms, observations of my denomination.
00:12:10
Speaker
um and they go back um to when I was at Theological College in the late 1980s and extend forward to to now. and and That is the shift in the belief system of the United Church. so When I went to Theological College, I was exposed to the most contemporary scholarship that was available at that time, extremely critical of like like the the taking a part of of biblical sources and language and all of that kind of stuff. um you know I had a Bible that had that had the Greek written underneath it, so I could
LGBTQ Ordination Impact
00:12:48
Speaker
compare passages. you know like We did a lot of that kind of stuff, which was very fun and sort of scientific or something. But um the second year that I was at Theological College, actually it was the beginning of, and in the between my first and second year, the United Church um had a very controversial decision and decided to ordain gays and lesbians.
00:13:08
Speaker
There are people of of ah differing sexualities that could be out about it, right? Like right obviously we had ordained um people, LGBTQ people in the past, but um but that was a big moment in 1988.
Racial Diversity Efforts
00:13:24
Speaker
And the United Church lost a lot of congregations around that decision. and But we also started attracting clergy from other denominations who could not be out in their own denominations.
00:13:37
Speaker
So they began coming into the United Church of Canada. Now, none of those clergy were tested according to their faith in the kinds of communities, small communities that were testing the faith of the students who were being ordained in the United Church of Canada. So we had people coming in from denominations that had maybe not wildly more conservative theologies than the United Church, but definitely more so um conservative than the United Church because, hey, we were the denomination that had decided that we would ordain LGBTQ people, right? So clearly our theology allowed us to do that and theirs didn't. So we brought in and welcomed with open arms um those who were you know refugees from their own denominational backgrounds. um So that was that was one thing. Then um in the beginning of the
00:14:32
Speaker
millennium, um we began recognizing that that we were not racially um diverse. right we We didn't have a diverse leadership in terms of race, which was a critical element in a you know in a country that has you know an incredibly diverse population. And so as the denomination of the of the country, you know like that's how we That's how how we came to be back in the 1920s was to be a you know a national denomination. and we needed to We wanted to be more racially diverse right in our leadership. And so we started we had some congregations that were, um you know we had some Korean congregations. We had to different congregations that were a particular Toronto Chinese, United Church,
00:15:28
Speaker
um that were a particular identity, but we felt that we needed to percolate that through the denomination. At least that's my understanding of what the decisions were. We began um bringing in many people um transferring in ah for leadership in the United Church of Canada that were coming from diverse places and who were trained in mostly much, much, much more conservative theology than clergy in the United Church had been trained right within.
Irrelevance of Church Conversations
00:16:05
Speaker
and so Now, we have ah we have in leadership positions across the denomination people who were ah were trained in very conservative um settings with very conservative theologies.
00:16:25
Speaker
A couple of months ago, our United Church magazine called Broadview came out and I stopped looking at it when there was there was a an article about extraterrestrial life. and And there's a picture of a woman who works in some setting where they're looking for extraterrestrial life. And the caption said, my hope is that if we find extraterrestrial life,
00:16:54
Speaker
Christians will be able to accept them. And I thought, A, most Christians can't accept their neighbors for one reason or another. So that's not likely to happen. But B, is that our most pressing concern at this point in time? right That whether or not you know extraterrestrials will be accepted by Christians. you know So i just you know i've you know I've been giving up on my denominational for the course of time, but that was that was pretty,
00:17:26
Speaker
I just don't think the relevance that we had in the past continues today.
Growing Conservatism in Leadership
00:17:33
Speaker
um And those kinds of conversations just make us that much more irrelevant, I think. So I think i think that i think that the leadership in the church has become far more um conservative than it was. You know, when my parents were, when I was a kid, you know, our our minister at the time would have been and far more progressive than most United Church ministers now, and that was in the 1960s. So wow you know it has changed dramatically.
00:18:02
Speaker
And I think that's going to further push people away because I don't think it's going to, you know, people are looking for more acceptance and they're looking for ah more progressive movements, you know, to allow more people to you know fill those those positions. I find that interfaith is a huge thing these days that people are aiming for. um I myself have done a couple of interfaith symposiums. I have another one coming up and it's just a wonderful opportunity to be able to just speak to people from across the table and say, hey, I'm a human, you're a human. Let's find a way to make this work.
00:18:30
Speaker
um and And in 99
Importance of Interfaith Dialogue
00:18:32
Speaker
% of your day-to-day engagements with people outside of your home, you're talking to people of a different faith, but you don't talk to them about faith stuff. you know you you You've got commonality around you know what lawnmower you use, or what school your kids go to, or whether or not you you know like yeah we we find ways to differentiate ourselves from each other, which are not helpful anymore.
00:18:54
Speaker
Mm hmm. Definitely. And it's funny too, what you were just bringing up reminds me of like, when the Pope will come out with something and say, well, you know, now, now we accept extraterrestrial life, or or now we we say that, or are now we we found out that um purgatory doesn't exist anymore. And it's like, okay, so for all this time, you thought it existed, and now all of a sudden you don't, and it's fine, we'll just keep moving on and change
Church Evolution and Survival
00:19:15
Speaker
things. And, and it's like, you know, you have to evolve or die, these these organizations, they evolve,
00:19:20
Speaker
to fit the times and adapt with the with the times and if they can't then they die off and you can see it in the Anglican Church because they said I think it's by like 2031 it may be gone completely the Anglican Church.
Greta's Ministry Goals
00:19:31
Speaker
um I don't know for sure but you know it's a statistic I've heard and I mean it it seems to make sense to me because of all the the people dropping off at the alarming rates that they're seeing. um So let's do some time traveling you and I are both in our 30s we're going to go back to our early 20s And when you first got into ministry, what was your goal? Oh, I i think when I first came into ministry, I felt a deep a deep desire to bring people together around important issues and to help them find their way through um those controversial things that were that are going on in life and every day, you know, in terms of
00:20:15
Speaker
um
00:20:17
Speaker
Oh, almost any socio ah political cultural issue. um
Church's Role in Overcoming Isolation
00:20:26
Speaker
We're we've we've moved away from, you know, when I I wrote a blog just yesterday about you know, the way we used to live and and we don't live like that anymore. We live in these and these pods and we don't get to understand what's going on in the world that much. But I wanted people to have those conversations, right? I was heavy into social justice. I just left a marriage and um had spent some time, you know, it was a difficult, very difficult time. And I wanted to be able to bring people together around those big conversations.
00:20:59
Speaker
um and church had always been for me a place where I felt um home, where I felt I could be real, where I felt I could grieve when I needed to grieve and I you know i wouldn't be isolated because of that. i think as like i think as you know I think we have a lot of grief, we carry grief with us and we mostly don't have anywhere to put it. so We see violence, we see abusive relationships, we see um introversion.
00:21:36
Speaker
And I wanted to be able to bring people together so that so that we could overcome some of that, so that silence could be broken um and conversation could be enriched and relationships could be developed. And I think that for the most of my ministry, that's that's what i what I was able to do with communities that felt the felt the um importance of that and the benefits of that and so worked to ensure that that was possible.
Evolving Faith and Language
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's a really noble cause in it and I do feel like you were able to accomplish that. The people that I've talked to that I don't know if they knew you directly or if they attended any of your services, but they just said that knowing that you were there in that position and representing
00:22:23
Speaker
them and and their thoughts and and feelings and beliefs that it made them feel like they were more comfortable and and more able to to express who they were. So I want to personally thank you for that on their behalf and I i just i feel like you you really accomplished that goal.
00:22:40
Speaker
um Thank you. and and And I believe that you're continuing to do that by your blog and and your books, um which we can get into your books in a minute, but I just want to ask one thing. As your beliefs started to change, um did it cause you any personal discomfort or fear?
00:22:58
Speaker
um i don't I don't know that my beliefs started to change so much as I realized that that the texts that I had taken as central to you know my identification as a Christian um were or um you know chosen, like there were like the the the whole biblical text. I don't think anyone can embrace the entire biblical text without going insane.
00:23:26
Speaker
Um,
Inspiration from Jesus Stories
00:23:27
Speaker
so mine were chosen that, that my definition of God was not consistent with what other people's definition was. So I started saying, I started speaking, saying things like God, by which I mean, and you know, like I found I had to define everything once I was saying it. So it wasn't so much that my beliefs had changed as my recognition that the words I was using to articulate them were problematic because they had these other understanding. And isn't that true? I mean, you have someone in a Presbyterian church that talks about God is very different from someone in an evangelical Baptist church who's talking about God. It's very different from someone in a Lutheran church. or you know You know, it's all very different. So i I just came to the realization I couldn't just keep using those single words to describe what I was talking about. And
Challenges of Text Interpretation
00:24:21
Speaker
you know I was always inspired by um many of the stories about Jesus.
00:24:27
Speaker
lot of which were insane, but there were ones that, you know, inspired me, like, you know, to be able to, to be able to say, or to be able to walk into a place and say, you know, this is just like screwed, right? We've got to, we got to rearrange this whole system, right? Which is kind of what I think that he did, you know, from time to time and, and to get people who are willing to risk their lives to do that with him, for the most part, or sort of. um You know, I was always kind of, you know, I was always inspired by those stories, right? And then I was realizing that, well, you know,
00:25:05
Speaker
you can't really just rely on those stories because they're interpreted in so many different ways. And that's your privileged interpretation that you've come to through your life and what you grew up with, but that's not anybody else's interpretation, right? Or very few, right? So I had to let go of those things, but the core elements that I had found in them that had guided my life, that had given me courage and strength and responsibility,
00:25:34
Speaker
um they still held right and I did there was no way I was walking away from the important work of instilling that same um passion for those things in other people's lives and so that's that's how that transition took place was just you know shifting from a prescribed way of talking about it to a way that was more accessible and more honest and less open to misinterpretation.
00:26:08
Speaker
Right. So your view of it changed and then you kind of shifted your perspective and then also you you kind of shifted your messaging, which is what it seems like you you you have done. um and And it's funny that you mentioned that, you know, the different denominations have different versions of God. I've always said.
00:26:25
Speaker
that every single religious person has a different version of God because you know you ask you can never ask two people to say all the characteristics or attributes of ah of a God and they'll give you the exact same thing it's never happened and I don't think it ever will maybe by fluke but um and it's funny how you kind of adopted the the the way that that you see Jesus, ah where he came in and made those changes, it's almost like you were doing that and reflecting um what you read into the text that he was doing.
Relevance of Community and Tolerance
00:26:57
Speaker
And it's funny that the church um didn't see it that way. And they kind of you know clawed but back some of that that power and and and and everything. But it's it's funny how you kind of went along those lines and the church didn't see it that way.
00:27:13
Speaker
Well, I mean, you have to remember that a church is heavily invested in its language and its liturgy. and You know, i I never said to them, you can't use that stuff. Like, that's not okay, right? Like, you got to put that old stuff away. It doesn't make any sense anymore. That was never my intention. right But our community, for our community, those things were no longer relevant.
00:27:38
Speaker
So we create we continue to gather. We continue to send them our annual dues. We continue to do all the things that we needed to do. We just found different sources to lift up the messages that we felt were important. right that were you know We were steeped in them as biblical messages, but we found ways to speak of them in a more in more relevant language.
00:28:00
Speaker
So we weren't prescribing a way to go forward. We were simply saying, your message, this message is far more important. It's so important that you can't let it die, right? It's so important that it needs to be out there. We need to find ways to tolerate one another. We need to find ways to stand up to abuse. We need to find ways to speak truth to power. We need to find ways to stand together so we have the courage to say, no more of this. right that's that's To me, that's what that message was. right and if we're If it's going to die because we're using ah an ancient language that is of no value anymore because people don't want to stand up and sit down and pass the plate in the same way they did before, then that's that's very unfortunate. I'm sad for
Greta's Regret on Church Direction
00:28:49
Speaker
that.
00:28:49
Speaker
Yeah, and that's, you know, I can see that I can see how sad you are and I'm actually sad as well because that seems like that's the adaptation that needs to happen and it's not happening. um So that's, yeah, that's a big loss for them. And I just I sometimes just shake my head thinking like, you know, they're going in the wrong direction, they're going in a direction that's really pushing people away. um Not that I really care because I really don't have a dog in the fight. But at the same time, it's like,
00:29:14
Speaker
to let these traditions and everything slip slip through their fingers is you know it is a sad situation even though you know it's not something I would be fighting for myself. um We did briefly just mention your books and I noticed that all of your books up to a certain point had a really really clever title and everything was very secular until you came to this one called AMED.
Book Title Misalignment
00:29:35
Speaker
which I wanted you to explain because at Baha Khan, you wrote the real thing. I defaced yours. Yes, which is perfect. But I just want you to explain to our listeners um why the book was called Amen and then what it's actually called and the reason why. Okay. and Yeah. i When I was finishing that book, I i had become extremely ill um and was ah tying things up.
00:30:03
Speaker
um very quickly before I was ah needing to have some surgery.
Core Themes of Greta's Book
00:30:08
Speaker
um So my editor at HarperCollins, I wanted to i'll call the book with or without prayer, and my editor at HarperCollins thought that that was too derivative, right? Which I thought would be great, but he didn't think that. So so um they came up with a man, what prayer can mean in a world beyond belief,
00:30:33
Speaker
And I think when, I think when you came up to me at the conference, I said, I held it up and I said, do you think I'd read a book, write a book that has this title? And you said, uh, no. yes Well, I didn't. I don't think prayer really, you know, like personally, people might find, you know, value in prayer. And I, you know, I meditate every day, right? If you want to call that prayer.
00:31:01
Speaker
Um, but it's, it's, yeah, it was just bad anyway. Um, so I defaced yours. What did I write on it with or without prayer? We're all the answer we've got. Yes. We are all the answer we've got. yeah And that's what the book is about. And if you've read it, you know, that I, I really take apart, you know, the, the elements of the Christian tradition that have to do with prayer.
Contemporary Relevance of Prayer
00:31:27
Speaker
And I talk about them in a,
00:31:29
Speaker
contemporary way and why they're important, why they're important parts of our lives, you know, like why it's important for us to, you know, look at things that are that are bigger than us, that are that are crucial to human to the human family, to our being able to converse with one another um and and deal with some of these horrific issues that are facing us um and how how can we do that? And we need to use some introspection, we need to use compassion, we need to be honest about
00:32:03
Speaker
um the travesties that we are imposing upon the earth and upon each other. you know All of those things have have um commonalities with the traditions of prayer and the Christian tradition. So so I use those to to talk about that. But yeah, the book the book died an ugly death because the title is just so bad. Well, it's nice that I was able to see you and have you write that on my book because it's something that I'll never forget. and My wife is a Christian. I brought it home and I showed her that and she thought that was really clever. Well, she should read the book. I think she probably did. Well, the big thing I got from the book, like one of the main themes is just you need to take time to stop and and listen and and look within you and just you know see what you need to do to change to and to to kind of go forward and and and like all the things we're saying, progress through um this world and make it a better place than when you what when you when you received it.
00:32:58
Speaker
Yeah, and the book the book is based on this sort of four major kinds of prayer that we use in in certainly in my denomination and Protestant denomination. That's adoration, right? Like in that I really say, you know, it doesn't take much to look around us and find things that we can that we can like that would put us on our knees if we were to take time to think about it. Confession, like how how how often Does anybody go through their life and stop and think about how they've screwed things up badly, like badly? And and we don't, we just carry on, okay, I'm good, right? so it But we need to think about those things. And then we need to give, you know, gratitude is a big thing, you know, and then and then supplication, which is a ridiculous word, but, you know, ways of of reaching out and saying, okay, how do I how do i move forward with this, right?
00:33:55
Speaker
um I think those are all common human needs. we We just wrapped them up in this stupid liturgical language and made them inaccessible to people. Yeah.
Living the Message
00:34:04
Speaker
And that's basically the thing is like, you know, finding the message that you want to get across and then like actually performing it in real life and living that that message. And I just, I think that that's a really good message to to put out there.
00:34:16
Speaker
um What are some words of wisdom that you would impart or give to someone who is in ministry right now or someone that's in the pews and maybe struggling with their beliefs?
00:34:29
Speaker
um i think
Advice for Ministers
00:34:30
Speaker
I think the most important thing to to someone who's in the pulpit is to be brave. um you know and and And to be honest, um it's been really it's been very hard for me to
00:34:49
Speaker
not have um companions along this journey. um Because i I know I'm not alone in my beliefs, and I'm not alone in the struggles that I have with, you know, denominational realities and things like that. And and I'm not talking just the United Church, but across the board. um So I oh I would like people to be brave um and to speak honestly with the people that they're serving, to have conversations, whether they're from the pulpit or whether they're you know in the study or whether they're at the hospital bed. you know Let people know who you are and what you believe and and why you're there for them.
00:35:35
Speaker
you know And it can't be a denominational salary. It has to be because you you believe that you have some value to bring to someone's life, right? And if you don't believe that, then don't do this. So I think being brave and and being honest about your beliefs is is important. um Probably the most important thing for someone in leadership, yeah. Yeah, I absolutely agree. and and i Thank you for saying that because that is that that is one of the things that I've noticed about myself is that I went through a period of being kind of a wolf in sheep's clothing and not telling people about what I actually believed because you're trying to fit in, you're trying to impress people, and and it's just it backfires on you. you know if you don't if you do If you're not honest with yourself and honest with others,
00:36:26
Speaker
you owe people to be honest, right? Like that's, that's kind of what we're here for is, is to, you know, impart what we can give on to those people. And, and, and yeah, I just, I totally agree with what you're saying. And it's not just about faith, Steve. It's about everything. I mean, we're living in very challenging times and, you know, my neighbors, I don't have conversations with my neighbors about what I think about climate, right? Cause that would be too threatening. I don't, I don't speak with,
00:36:54
Speaker
you know my family members about things like that and'll speak to them about anything actually but um But we we have to be honest about the things that are that we care about. and um And that goes from our kids' education to the way the Parks Department deals with you know the properties that the town owns to you know all kinds of things. right And and when we when we went to church, that. I don't speak to them about anything actually, but
00:37:25
Speaker
as a community, we had the courage to lift those things up periodically and then see a wave of change happen as as awareness grew and commitment um was seized you know as an as you know in time. and so It's not just faith, it's about everything. and I think churches did that in the past, um gave us permission to change the world.
00:37:51
Speaker
And we still
Role for Non-Religious People
00:37:52
Speaker
have that permission. We just have to find ways to get together and do it. Absolutely. And we've already touched on this. um But if you can expand a little bit on it, and and I'm going to add another element to it. But where do you see the United Church of Canada going now? And what role, if any, are non-religious people playing in that?
00:38:12
Speaker
ah the united church ah I don't think the United Church um has a role for non-religious people anymore. um I think that their disciplinary action made it clear to people that they were not welcome um and that they would not be able to find support in congregations because leaders who were um willing to lead in that direction were There's very few of them who couldn't remain committed to that, I believe. So um so I would say the United Church is not really a great place to look um for communities. Yeah, um ah to their detriment, yeah. Yeah, where would you suggest that people go if they are non-believers and looking for a community like that?
00:38:59
Speaker
um Real space communities, I don't really know. um West Hill has an online community, which is, um which has a non traditional format and, um and that Rabbi Brian of religion outside the box. ah He also has a zoom program that happens on Saturdays. And he's, he's, he has um created a very open community. It's based in, you know, religious um practices, or I mean, Jewish practices,
00:39:33
Speaker
um but in a very post-atheistic way. Rabbi Bryson. He's an atheist as well, but also a rabbi.
Unitarian Universalist Church Views
00:39:43
Speaker
um so those are Those are two small communities. um Sunday Assembly, you said you go to the Sunday sunday Assembly. yeah and I think that that's ah a good alternative. I don't think it creates community in the same way that a congregation does.
00:39:58
Speaker
um I could be totally wrong about that because I haven't had access to one of them. The one in Detroit definitely does. There's a couple others that are more like kind of online based, but this one is actually in person and there's usually about 30 to 40 people that show up. Oh, that's good. Yeah, they do have a bit of a community. There's also the Toronto Oasis. I did a presentation for them recently. Yeah, there are Oasis communities across the states and they have a rich They have a ah rich history within evangelical churches like I think a lot of them have grown out of even, you know, or been formed by evangelicals post evangelicals who've come together so they have a lot of the those basic things about how to bring people together how to treat them when they're together how to do social justice work in the community how to
00:40:47
Speaker
Like the one that I spoke at in Houston, every week they have a blood bank truck oh outside so people can can give blood. you know And they you know do all kinds of social stuff. So yeah, Oasis is a great community in the States. There's lots of them across the States that are that are doing doing well and doing good stuff. Awesome. but What is your take on the Unitarian Universalist Church? I don't have a lot of ah experience with the Unitarian Universalists.
00:41:15
Speaker
um
00:41:18
Speaker
I wouldn't choose to join one. ah My, but as I say, my experience is old, but it's generally my experience has been mostly that it's more of an amalgam of a variety of different religious traditions. So they'll read from a different kind of religious text gotcha um each week. And, um and I just don't find the value in that, but others may like, like,
00:41:43
Speaker
I don't need something that's steeped in the sacred. i mean And I don't need a lot of ritualistic moments. right But there are people for whom those are really, really motivational. um they They ground them. They connect them with the human spirit. you know In community, those are those are really good. The Unitarian Universalists, I would say,
00:42:10
Speaker
you know They're not like the Anglicans, they don't process things and things like that, but they do have that sense of ah ah spirituality that is good for some people, which you would probably which you would definitely not find in an an oasis.
00:42:24
Speaker
Right, yeah. I've always been curious because people have told me that Unitarian Universalist is a good alternative if you're looking for that type of, you know, tradition and all that, but I've never actually gone myself, so. Yeah. yeah um If you could go back and do it all over again, would you do it the same or do you think you'd make some changes with the knowledge that you have? I would have image i but have made damn sure that Harper Collins changed the name of that book. I would have done that, but would I have done all the rest of it?
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I took on that, I mean, I identified as an atheist and and became public as an atheist when people were being hacked to death in the streets of Dhaka, right? like
Bravery and Integrity in Challenges
00:43:08
Speaker
and and they And they're still being hacked to death in different places around the world, right? So I i don't I don't see any alternative. and and And the thing is, most of my colleagues would have been totally unaware of that. So I'm not condemning my colleagues for not coming up, you know, like not standing up ah in the same way. um I just happen to be aware of it. um and i And I was made aware of it um by people who felt that I could help in some way. And so
00:43:45
Speaker
Once you're aware of something like that, Steve, you you can't just walk away, you can't just say, now that's too dangerous for me, or no, I might get in trouble with my denomination, or no, you know, my husband might leave me, you know, like, in which he didn't, by the way, that was just giving an example. But no, he's totally with me. But, um but you can't you can't compromise um the right thing to do for your own personal well-being. I mean, it never occurred to me to and naivety or what never occurred to me that my denomination would come up with a heresy law so they could try me, right? Like, yeah yeah you know, like, it just seemed so ridiculous um at the time because
00:44:36
Speaker
They taught me everything I knew.
Non-Theist Beliefs Alignment
00:44:39
Speaker
Right. Right. So you think you can go to them in times of need. Right. It ends up being the opposite. And and many people would say I was just naive um and maybe I maybe I had had not been paying attention to changes that have been taking place at the denominational level. um And I should have been paying more attention to that. Maybe it was getting more conservative and I just hadn't realized it or I don't know.
00:45:02
Speaker
at the time, but um but that was the right thing to do. I mean, my i like many of my colleagues, I would say most of the colleagues who have been trained in the United Church um seminaries would identify as non-theists, right? So you don't have an understanding of God as a being who exists and gave us, you know, laws on how we're supposed to live. There would be non-theists. Well, what is a non-theist it's ahs yeah It's someone who doesn't believe there's a God who's a God, right? So they're using that term to wrap around a concept of values and um perspectives and admonishments to right relationship, right? And that is not a being. So
00:45:58
Speaker
So if you're a non-theist, it begs the question, right? So
Inspiring Bravery and Integrity
00:46:07
Speaker
most of my colleagues, and I identified as a non-theist for years until I thought, well, that's sort of protective. You know, it's just like a little bit of protection, which I needed to let go of in order to be able to protect other people. Right.
00:46:23
Speaker
Well, I just thank you for doing all of that stuff because you know you talk about bravery and you talk about the right thing to do. And I feel like I don't want to disparage anyone or to you know be pessimistic, but I feel that a lot of people are just not that brave. And a lot of people are just not that, they don't they don't have that integrity that you seem to have. So I just, from the bottom of my heart, I really thank you for doing what you did um because I feel like you started a movement of people who are,
00:46:52
Speaker
you know, feeling that they're comfortable now coming out or even just saying that, you know, things need to change and we're going to do it because Greta did it. You know, so I just feel like you are, you are inspirational for a lot of people. So, and that's one of the main reasons that we wanted to have you on this podcast is because we just wanted to to thank you for for all the stuff that you have done, um not just for um churchgoers and for for clergy, but just the general population, just everybody as as a human being. Well, thank you for that, Steve. I i would be surprised if there was a single person
00:47:31
Speaker
in your community who hasn't made the same kind of choice somewhere in their life, which has limited the relationships that they that they could have or compromised the relationships that they did. And we do it because A, it's the right thing to do, but B, because there are generations coming up behind us that need to be able to see that they can speak whatever their truth turns out to be. And we don't even know what that might look like. um but But all of the people who do that are having a ah significant contribution.
Setting an Example for Future Generations
00:48:10
Speaker
um making a significant contribution to the future and I'm just one of them. absolutely and i would And I would definitely agree to that. And, you know, we've already seen the new generations, kind of coming up with their own ideas and and um A lot of them are a lot more advanced than we were at their age. So it's absolutely nice to see that they have that, uh, the brain power going and, um, you know, the ability to be able to do research kind of in their pocket, um, to be able to, to Google what people are saying and see if it's true or not.
Greta's Blog and Closing Remarks
00:48:41
Speaker
So, that's right that's right um, where else can listeners find your work?
00:48:46
Speaker
I blog on sub-stack and I've been doing that irregularly because I just have haven't been up to it for a while, but I'm hoping to do that more regularly. I have a lot of material I've written over the years that I am finding because I just wrote it and moved on to the next thing. So I'm bringing up some of that poetry and and reflecting on it. ah So yeah, so sub-stack is really the best place to find me right now.
00:49:11
Speaker
Awesome. And every time I go to Sunday Assembly, they always have a portion of it. i I'm part of the board actually for the Detroit um branch. and there's there Yeah, it's great. there's a There's a part in the ceremony that has readings where it's kind of if you want to have a ah reading done. um And I'm just looking for the right opportunity to bring in some of your your reading, your pieces, because I feel like if we have maybe a talk on on ministry or if we have a talk on on on prayer or something where I could fit one of your readings in I think that that would be a really good fit so um do I have your permission to be able to read yeah absolutely awesome absolutely yeah that would be I would be honored to awesome and uh when that does happen we do record them so I'll send you the recording for that that's great Steve thank you
00:50:03
Speaker
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking time into your busy schedule to come and meet with me today. My pleasure, Steve. It's just been so awesome to have you, and I hope we can talk again in the future. Good. Yes, I absolutely. do Take care. Awesome. Thank you. Take care. Bye. Bye.
00:50:20
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at HumanistCanada.ca and become a member and or donate. You can also like and subscribe to us on social media at Humanist Canada. We'll see you next time.