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Episode 21 - An Interview with Derek Forgie & Kate Cohen
93 Plays1 month ago
Humanist Canada's Derek Forgie sits down for a chat with Kate Cohen, a Washington Post columnist who writes about the intersection of culture, family, and politics. Her latest book is "We of Little Faith" from Godine.
Join them as they discuss atheism, child-rearing, Santa, and more!
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Transcript
Introduction to The Voice of Canadian Humanism
00:00:01
Speaker
I mean, have you ever been to a play? It's just sort of like, yeah, it's not look i not fun or a movie. Like it's not not fun. of course. To that it's not real. It's actually kind of more fun to know that it's not real.
00:00:28
Speaker
Welcome to The Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens.
00:00:44
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
Meet Derek Forgey
00:00:49
Speaker
Hello, it's Derek Forgey. I am a yeah member of Humanist Canada, and I'm also on the Humanist Canada podcast team. That's right, I got a i got a couple hats on, folks. I know. Passed the bar and I got in.
00:01:00
Speaker
I'll tell you this. um Being in a book club is fun. Being a book club is great. You read a book and then you sit around with a bunch of friends and you talk about literature and you just read it so all your ideas are fresh. ah Let me tell you something that's even better.
00:01:11
Speaker
ah Reading a book that lets you up like a pinball machine and then talking to the author hours afterwards directly over Zoom. That's a little cooler than a book club. All due respect to book clubs, this is pretty awesome and a rare treat.
Guest Introduction: Kate Cohen
00:01:26
Speaker
So I have the author of We Have Little Faith, Why I Stopped Pretending to Believe, and maybe you should too. Kate Cohen is with us today. Hello, Kate. Hello. Hi, this is Nice be here.
00:01:38
Speaker
I have it here. Look, I have it. I see that. I'm reading it. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. That makes this way easier. That's good. good Yeah, that would have been awkward.
00:01:49
Speaker
Oh, right. That would have been yeah fun at all. yeah Just me trying to go trying to find like a page. thing Just something, anything. thanks. um So let's get let's give people locations. I'm in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Can you tell our listeners where you are geographically? I'm in I'm in Albany, New York on a on a hay farm.
00:02:08
Speaker
Well, inside, but OK, right. OK, that makes sense. Thank you for clarifying. You're indoors. Yeah, indoors.
The Importance of Atheist Identity
00:02:16
Speaker
So, ah so you're, let's face it, you're, you're a famous atheist.
00:02:19
Speaker
Let's just start right there. There's no, no escape. Famous atheist. So I have to get right to the first question, considering we're just on the heels of a ah rather notable election. um It also should be noted that ah the, the top Google results for can't for Canadians came out somewhat recently.
00:02:37
Speaker
And no surprise to you, probably Kate, your election was ah was mentioned quite a few times. ah How do you pronounce Kamala was one of them. What's a tariff, you know, those things.
00:02:49
Speaker
So what I'm curious is in this in this new chapter you've been dealt in in the States, how are you feeling about so the word atheist these days? how are you feeling about being ah being a vocal atheist?
00:03:00
Speaker
What's your relationship with the word, I guess, is what I'm getting at. Oh, okay. ah That is really interesting. i mean, um I have, as i as I do talk about some in the book, I decided quite um early on that atheist was what I was, um that I didn't really need to... to um take the the detour to agnostic.
00:03:28
Speaker
um And that, um you know, once I decided to be vocal about not believing, I thought it was important to use the word atheist just because it is, it's it's unambiguous.
00:03:40
Speaker
It's very clear. um ah Whereas something like humanist, you know, or even non-believer, it doesn't quite pack the same punch, which of course is a double-edged you know, sword. I mean, you you can scare people off with the word um if they're not used to attaching it to, know, mild-mannered, middle-aged white ladies.
00:04:08
Speaker
ah So um I don't know. So since the election... I guess I just feel like it's even more important. I don't feel and particularly more um at risk than I did before. I'm definitely in a position of privilege in terms of my community, in terms of living in the state of New York.
00:04:30
Speaker
um You know, I, I know I don't feel at greater risk. I feel a greater urgency. you know like Yeah, I mean, I was really hoping the.
00:04:47
Speaker
the
00:04:50
Speaker
overreach of the Christian nationalists, the overreach of people who um decided that their religious beliefs should apply to everybody and be translated into laws. i i was really hoping that that would and be a bridge too far.
00:05:12
Speaker
That they'd gone too far. I really was hoping that people would would feel that and that um and that there would be um a correction.
00:05:23
Speaker
And I don't, ah you know, they're obviously- don't think we got that. They
Overcoming Defeatism in Advocacy
00:05:27
Speaker
didn't get that. No, not at all. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, no. So that's that's, I guess how I'm feeling is like- Well, I guess that's it's a similar- I can't take a break. I gotta keep going. No, that's okay.
00:05:40
Speaker
There's a lot of people, I mean, i'm I'm happy to hear that because there was a common thread of of defeatism. Defeatism is a word? Defeatism. That sounds right right. Right on the heels of of the results. There was a there was a there was kind of a dread with it with a certain demographic. There was a there was a sizable portion of people that did have a sense of dread and and were just like, well, ah well, what what more can I do?
00:06:02
Speaker
Like I just, I tried so hard. I had my foot on the gas and it didn't work. What do I do? Like there was a lot. So I'm happy to hear that you're feeling invigorated and and feeling like still charged. That's good. Okay. Integrated is going a little bit far. Fair enough. i don't want to put words in there. I mean, I completely, like I totally, the first two weeks I was basically, you know, under my covers. I mean, it, it, it, it was very, it was very demoralizing. I just,
00:06:27
Speaker
Yeah. That's that's I right there. That sound right there was a very common sound we we we were hearing for a couple of your tone. Yeah, um I just want to back a step because I just want to go back a step. I was like, you talked about the the d the detour to agnostic, which I thought was really breezed. You breezed past it really quickly. But I think that's really interesting.
00:06:44
Speaker
I do want to talk about your your important distinction between those two things, because I think a lot of people kind of put them in the same. they're They're very close, but you've made, you've talked about in your book, the very clear distinction of why it was important for you to not be a to not be agnostic, but to be vocally atheist. And what is the difference to you predominantly?
Choosing Atheism over Agnosticism
00:07:05
Speaker
Okay, well, um I honestly cannot remember what i what I said in the book, but the what I say to people is that um that when you say you're an agnostic,
00:07:19
Speaker
you are really implying that you you're not ah making a choice. You're not you're not really you you think it's somewhat equally possible that there is a God or that there isn't a God.
00:07:33
Speaker
um Technically, guess we're all agnostic in the sense of like we're all basically we know nothing. But For me, you know using the intellectual tools that I have, my simple powers of observation and deduction, et cetera, et cetera, it seems it seems I feel like I can conclude that God is an invention, a human invention, um a reasonable invention. I completely, i i you know I'm fascinated by the by the reasons that um
00:08:12
Speaker
that that people invented ah Supreme Being. And I, as you know, from reading the book, I am sympathetic to the the the needs that people have that might lead to that. So, you know, but to me, it seems quite clear that that God has invented.
00:08:32
Speaker
And I always say, you know, I i am ah i'm a humble atheist in the sense that um if I ever get any other evidence, you know, or if I change my mind, I'll be like, oops, I'm not an atheist, you know, but for the time being, i think I'd much rather say that and be clear than say agnostic.
00:08:55
Speaker
And it just feels a little weaselly to me, I guess is what I'm saying. Because most agnostics that I know most, right well, I guess there's, you know, most people I know who are using the term are doing it because it's a softer word and it's a word that people ah accept. Even people of of ah strong faith have felt doubt.
00:09:17
Speaker
And so, you know, it's a way of kind of, um I mean, I, You're being clear. Yeah, you you are being clear for sure. And at no point do I hear, like at no point in reading and reading this book, do I hear your eyes rolling, if that makes any sense. Good. You ever read a book and you can hear somebody's eyes rolling? Yeah, I've read. Yes. ah but I can hear ah British accented eyes rolling and things like that.
00:09:43
Speaker
Yes. Like I think... I think you get it right where Bill Maher gets it wrong. you're in a mean like you get You know Like you're not you're not smug about it. And you're just like, you you have a bit of a shrug too, a bit of a shrug to it, which I like. Interesting. yeah does no I can hear you shrugging in the best way ever heard. So I do want to talk about about words and what and what they mean and what's attached to right you're You're talking about you know what's attached to agnostic, what's attached to atheist.
Atheism and Veganism: Societal Perceptions
00:10:09
Speaker
And in your book, I was thinking about the the parallels between atheist and vegans funny enough i'm not sure if you can connect the dots here but that is so funny wait you haven't finished the book then oh there' there's some left i have some left not there do you talk about this am i jumping okay i i'm not done but i'm almost there are you talking do you seriously go to that you want to just take a break and go read that part i'm not i'm not i'm joking i'm not i swear i'm not being coy that is hilarious i totally i'm on to something you're gonna love it okay
00:10:41
Speaker
Perfect. yeah So but we can talk about it now. Yes. yeah Let's talk about it right now. So I found like when people find out that you're vegan, it's often when they similar thing, when they find out you're, you're atheist, they they assume you're going to judge them.
00:10:53
Speaker
They assume you're going to throw something in their face that they don't want to hear. They don't want it. They don't want to be challenged on cheeses or Jesus. You know, they don't want to be. Oh, I love that. so ah Did I just steal a line from your book? No.
00:11:06
Speaker
Okay. Oh, but I'm going to use it in the next one. steal it, steal a hell out of it. So, so, okay. So clearly you've already, you've already barked up this tree. ah So yeah, um what I'm driving at is this a bit of a long walk here, but what I'm trying to put them, what I'm coming around to the front of is, are you still feeling that eye rolling when people find out that you're atheist? Are you still feeling that generally speaking?
00:11:31
Speaker
Well, so usually, i mean, there's ah when I'm in, in, in person with someone, um I am kind of transparently sort of a nice, non-threatening human being, right? Or like what people assume to be a nice, non-threatening human being.
00:11:50
Speaker
So I kind of have the... um the jump in terms of ah people thinking that I am oh i you know an angry ah person or ah you know ah some of the other things, or even like a ah very, a cold person or the the things that people associate with atheism. Like if you meet me that i I don't think you get any of that.
00:12:16
Speaker
And in terms of people being afraid that I am judging them, the funny thing is that I feel like there are a lot of people who rush to reassure me that they are intelligent people or that they are, um you know, they've given these things some thought or that they are, they, you know, attend church, but, you know, that's the way they were raised or whatever it is. It's like, there are some people who, who are afraid that I'm going to judge them, but, you Yeah, and but but sort of seek to sort of reassure me that they are just, you know, that they're they are smart too, I guess, or something like that. So it' very interesting.
00:12:57
Speaker
um you You definitely have this the same thing. My wife has this this same um problem. It's a good problem to have. My wife also has what what I call NPF. Have you heard this term before? I might've made it up with nice person face. You have that too. Like you have.
00:13:10
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Get tested. Get tested for NPF. I think you have it.
Parenting without Religion
00:13:14
Speaker
I also want to talk, I want to talk about your kids for a second. You mentioned your kids a couple of times in the book. um And lean Lena, Lena. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Lena, she she was asking you, um this is just a personal interest.
00:13:26
Speaker
She was asking you about insurance. So I'm just genuine, genuine, genuinely curious. How on earth, how do you explain insurance to a child? Cause I'm 47. I'm not sure I get it. How did you word that? I'm genuinely curious.
00:13:42
Speaker
I'm shocked you didn't ask how I explained how do a girls masturbate. That was another question that she, she, cause I was giving a, you know, but basically for our listeners who haven't read the book yet, which you listen is a huge mistake that you can, that you can rectify. But um yeah, so my, so we just met 20 minutes ago. That feels forward.
00:14:03
Speaker
Yeah. i'm Okay. Fair. yeah um I was, I was, um so Lena is my third child and um she incredibly is the first of my three child children. And I've raised them all as atheists, you know ah she's my first one who, who actually said to me, well, how do we know there's no God, you know, and, and as a, as a very, you know, I think maybe she was,
00:14:35
Speaker
seven or eight at the time. I don't know. She just is a question asker. So insurance was one of them. I don't remember what I said. um You know, you pay a certain amount of money. And then if you you need help, um the the that that company comes in and, um and,
00:14:54
Speaker
and helps you out. Um, I guess is what I said about insurance. I don't know. And then there's health insurance, which in this country is ridiculous and there is no explaining it other than, you know, capitalism and what whatever.
00:15:06
Speaker
That's a whole, that's, we'll, we'll get into that another time, but, um, yeah, she, she's a question to ask her. And, and, um, you know, for someone who likes to think about things, which I do. I'm a writer and I'm a columnist. And I really feel like that, what that basically means is that I'm a thinker who is um has a knack for getting my thoughts into your head, basically. Like that that's that's what a writer is.
00:15:39
Speaker
um so So for me, it's been an amazing gift to have kids who are inquisitive and kids who challenge me. um Because as much as you wanna challenge yourself,
00:15:53
Speaker
it's hard to do. You know, it's hard to, it's hard to take a step back and look at your assumptions. It's hard to, ah it's hard to question yourself. So i I was gifted with three kids who do that in various ways, but Lena did it very like directly. Well, that's the thing. Lena and I have a so ah similar experience in grade four. It was grade four for me.
00:16:12
Speaker
My probably my very first religious red flag was with that question. I asked Mrs. Pecor flat out. because we had religion we had religion week and it was almost like a roast that wasn't funny like we were at the catholic school and going through the other religions and they were just like look at this guy with the eight arms can you believe this nonsense and this stupid and they're like and then and then and then they actually took a shot at indigenous beliefs i remember this they were like the Indigenous people will believe that a crow made the earth. That's that's nonsense.
00:16:45
Speaker
And they went through the religions and talked about other flaws. But then at the end of the week, they were like, check this out. Virgin birth, eternal life. Jesus can I get a what what?
00:16:56
Speaker
And they were just like really pitching it to us. And at the end, and I wasn't trying to be a rebel rouser either. I wasn't trying to be provocative. I was literally concerned. I put my hand up and I went, whoa, how how do we know we picked the right one?
00:17:09
Speaker
And then I just got shamed. I just got shamed in class. They were like, Derek, are you kidding me? Look at this guy. Anyway, we just know. So it was like I didn't really get a good answer. Yes.
Discussing Death with Children
00:17:19
Speaker
That's a wonderful story. Experience of like a red flag going off.
00:17:23
Speaker
OK, so your your your son also apparently had like a i don't know if it still exists, but he was obsessed with the the death question for a while. Yeah. Right. yeah yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about that.
00:17:35
Speaker
or where where is he at with it now? I mean, know, he's, he's, he's on Lexapro. He's, he's, he, yeah I don't, it's not a, it's not an obsession. He's 22 and you know, he's going on with his life. He's just, he just is aware, i guess. He has a successful crematorium. I get it.
00:18:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. um But Yeah, he's not, he does not have to obsess over it. um But is it is it far from his songwriting? Maybe not.
00:18:11
Speaker
ah He is, um when he was a kid, and I think there are, a lot of kids do go through ah phase where they're like really scared that they're, you know, once they learn about death, that their parents are going to die or that um they're going to die or, you know, he he used to really be, you know,
00:18:31
Speaker
torn up about the idea and um and it was hard as a parent to figure out how to talk to him about it in a way that didn't rely on all the easy um religious answers you know i mean I totally like ah understand people who are like, um heaven, that's it.
00:18:57
Speaker
Grandma's in heaven or grandma's up there, you know, just look up and grandma's there and she's always. So um I was determined not to do that. But, you know, you still want to give your children comfort.
00:19:09
Speaker
and And then that is Um, you know, that was really the kind of impetus for that, that chapter of the book. So, um, just to describe it quickly, the first part of we have little faith is about how I, um,
00:19:33
Speaker
how I basically pretended for the first part of my life that I was a believer and then why I decided to stop pretending. um And then the second part is really about all the things that um kind of followed from there.
00:19:50
Speaker
um all the All the things that religion gives us, um and and or or or maybe that we think religion gives us and if there's a way to get them um somehow without believing in a higher power so death um is the first chapter because it's really the most the most important thing that religion gives us is a is a is a way out of this terrible terrible truth
00:20:23
Speaker
um And so um so, yeah, that chapter is about how i um how i comfort myself when I think about death and what i you know how I sort of struggled to comfort my son at the time. um you know And part of it is about...
00:20:46
Speaker
just how hard parenting is, I think. And i made it out two betters i got you. Yeah. Yeah. um And one of the things I'm not sure if it comes through in the chapter, but one of the things I always tell parents um when, when people ask me about, you know, all the different difficult conversations you potentially might have with your kids having to do with religion or not having to do with religion. i always say it's really important to remember that,
00:21:16
Speaker
You don't just have to have one conversation. Like you can, you can keep going back to it. You can say something wrong and then later say, Hey, I was i said something wrong and I wanna, and I wanna say, wanna try again.
00:21:31
Speaker
you know what I mean? So I think one of the advantages are or the ways that we set up our family, just not even on purpose, but by accident was that we were just constantly in conversation, constantly in conversation. And it really took some of the pressure off each individual moment.
00:21:50
Speaker
um ah and And that sort of pressure to feel like, you know, I have to, I have to answer this exactly right. um They'll, they'll go with you. They'll, they'll, they yeah and, and just your, and just your willingness to,
00:22:08
Speaker
to revise your statement or to think about it or to show or to or to take seriously whatever the question is, is like a great lesson. Just those things are great lessons mom to begin with, um you know regardless of what the actual content is. Just if you can model that like, okay, let's think about this and try to express it. And it's hard to express and it's a hard thing to think about, but it's worth thinking about all that stuff.
00:22:38
Speaker
That's, that's gold. um yeah that's a very It's also very refreshing to hear you say to to lean into being wrong. I love, I love that. yeah That's a recurring theme in the book, which I like. And I think, I think it's it also, we started off talking about your recent election.
Importance of Admitting Mistakes as Parents
00:22:53
Speaker
And I think one of the biggest problems why there's so much polarization is the, is the inability for people to admit that they made a mistake. I think one of the most vivid memories I have of my dad is I don't even remember what it was about, but I do remember him sitting me down and apologizing for something that he was wrong about.
00:23:08
Speaker
And it did, all it did was make me respect him more. It all would be just like, okay. Exactly. It humanized him and it made him, it made him like, ah it just, it just painted a whole new, level I had a whole new level of respect for him. Cause I'm like, oh, he's going through stuff too.
00:23:22
Speaker
He's trying to figure this out because he was so at that point. And, and then he it seemed like he was just stronger. So yeah, i think I think that's a good lesson for parents. It's like, you are gonna make mistakes and it's and they your kids will be, your your kids don't have to see you as made of Teflon.
00:23:37
Speaker
Like your kids can see as person. There's a balance there somewhere. And I think, you know, when non-religious, you know, this book is partly a response to the not religious people that I knew who, when they, once they had kids were like, ah yes i got I guess I gotta teach them this stuff that I don't even actually believe.
00:23:58
Speaker
you know? and And I think part of that is this fear of not having the answers. The thing about religion is they have the answers, you know? And that's so funny. I remember once, this is not the same thing, but I remember, ah I remember singing the Spider-Man theme song at the dinner table once. This was, I was a child.
00:24:18
Speaker
I probably also did it in my forties, but anyway, I sang that at the dinner table and my mom went, we don't sing at the table. And I said, why? And she went, I don't know. Nevermind. love that. Yeah. It was because her mom had told her that and she went, that's a dumb rule. I don't need to, i don't need to perpetuate that. I know that's a much smaller thing than like a religion.
00:24:38
Speaker
but it's like you're right you we do we do teach things that we think we're supposed to you think we're supposed to and there are a lot you know kudos to your mom because i'm sure i do it too you know again it's always this process of like what it what is it that i'm passing on that i don't i shouldn't be passing on you know and i've learned ah a lot from my kids about that stuff okay well i do i do have i do have an unpopular position about this subject Okay.
Santa Claus and Atheism
00:25:06
Speaker
I'm a little red. I'm a red. I mean, look, you seem, i I had it in my maybe pile, but just as as a testament to your NPF, your nice person face. Okay.
00:25:16
Speaker
I'm going to trust you with this. Okay. and um I feel like, I feel like you're going to be based based on what I've read in your book so far, you're going to be on my side with this, I think. So I have a very unpopular position about Santa Claus.
00:25:32
Speaker
And it doesn't look good on paper. It it makes me sound very good. I know. And I have two daughters and I know it doesn't come across very nice, but I have a real hard time with going along with the story and every adult is in on it.
00:25:51
Speaker
And then, you know what i mean? Look, i had a I had a great childhood. I have nothing but fond memories of cousins and and uncles and aunts and grandparents. and But I don't have any real good, vivid memories about the Santa Claus stuff. It's all about family.
00:26:05
Speaker
And so I don't feel like I would have lost anything if the Santa Claus story wasn't in my childhood. But I'll tell you this. I vividly remember when the penny dropped.
00:26:18
Speaker
Yeah, when I connected the dots, and I remember the feeling of of embarrassment, and betrayal and mistrust. And I'm like, I'm not sure this is a good trade off. Yeah, so I felt uncomfortable about going along with it with my kids. So I just kind of stepped back and I know how that sounds.
00:26:35
Speaker
I know it sounds like you're depriving your children of a childhood. it's Wait, wait, wait, wait. When you say you're set back, wait, wait, wait. Does that mean that you're leaving it up to someone else?
00:26:45
Speaker
Well, my my wife leans into it and I don't, I certainly don't stop her. It's okay okay in the house, but you have a mixed marriage is what you're saying. so Yes. We, yes. My, my wife is ah saying Santa Gnostic.
00:27:00
Speaker
oh No, that sounds like a satanic cult. Anyway, no, she's good with the Santa Claus story. She loves all the magic and all that stuff. I have a real hang up with it.
00:27:11
Speaker
And yeah I say stuff like, well, what do you think? Or I just can't go along with it. Anyway, what are your, am I, am I, am I awful? Am I reasonable? I mean, well, we are on the, we are on the same wavelength.
00:27:23
Speaker
I have always...
00:27:27
Speaker
I've always had, and this goes, you know, goes deep into into the atheism thing too, to a certain extent, but I have always been creeped out by the notion of, um you know, people people lying though to me.
00:27:44
Speaker
and um and and I don't understand why it's supposed to be for fun. um thank And I will say, yeah, I,
00:27:55
Speaker
i ah I will say that. um OK, so I was raised Jewish, but my parents had a real kind of like we want all the fun kind of attitude toward life. So we did do Christmas and we did do Santa Claus.
00:28:12
Speaker
I don't really remember learning the truth, but I remember um when my older sister and I knew the truth and my little sister didn't. um And sort of not feeling totally comfortable with that.
00:28:28
Speaker
And then when we all knew the truth and we still did Santa Claus and it's fine, then it's like as a family, you're just you're putting on this little play, you know. Yeah.
00:28:43
Speaker
you I mean, even when we all knew that we all knew. Right. Right. We're like, we're still baking the cookies. My dad is still writing his little, you know, calligraphed thank you note or whatever that we find in the morning with the cookies eaten. It's like then you're then you're doing something as a family. You're doing this.
00:29:03
Speaker
Make believe. Exactly. That's totally so. So. um ah Yeah. So i I think, you know, you don't have to take away joy from your kids when you take away this blurring of fact and fiction. It's I mean, have you ever been to a play?
00:29:25
Speaker
It's just sort of like, yeah, it's not look i not fun or a movie like it's not not fun. Of course. To know that it's not real. It's actually kind of more fun. Yeah.
00:29:38
Speaker
To know that it's not real. So I feel like. it's I knew you'd be on my page. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So no, i am very, like, I would not. I also, if parents are going to do that, I'm not going to go around telling, you know, blowing their cover or whatever it is. or I'm not going to go out Alex Jones and go, it's a conspiracy. It goes all the way to talk about it.
00:30:00
Speaker
But i didn't feel like I don't feel i don't I i did do am creeped out and the fairy the tooth fairy same thing I would you know, leave a little note and they know they know what's happening and it's fun. That's right.
00:30:15
Speaker
Yeah, because there is a recurring theme like again, comet come back coming back to your book. It's like you want you want facts not faith. You know, yeah you prefer facts over faith is what I'm getting at. You like, show me the evidence.
00:30:26
Speaker
And so I think that's why I was always a little uncomfortable with the Sineclaw story. because yeah Again, it's not to say that I don't love fiction.
00:30:36
Speaker
and and think I I really try art. I I books. i really try to to make that clear i love art i love books i love i love um I honestly think of religion as this you know this human creation. And to a certain extent, I find it kind of beautiful that the way that, I mean, not the way that it is misused, of course, not the way that it is
00:31:07
Speaker
um ah that it is you know sort of harnessed to um to allow people to um exert power over others or anything like that.
00:31:19
Speaker
But that the idea that this entire metaphysical system was created so that we could pretend that we don't die when we die is kind of, I just think there's something beautiful about it. So I am, am yeah you know, a lot of times when I can't,
00:31:38
Speaker
when i try to explain what being an atheist is, I'm very clear. i i don't like to say i don't believe in God so much. I like to say i believe that God is a human invention, you know, um because I think that God is a very powerful notion.
00:31:54
Speaker
It's a very powerful idea. And, um, and I, um, yeah, anyway, it's just, what you it it's just fiction.
Misconceptions of Atheists
00:32:03
Speaker
On that subject, i do do you think it's safe to say that like the atheists, humanists, agnostics so probably are unfairly painted as, you know, joyless, kind of miserable?
00:32:14
Speaker
Yes, of course. Are you still sort of up ah fighting uphill with that? I mean, I, I, um, Yeah, I think that, i guess i I guess I am. I guess I had, I mean, I don't know to what extent now,
00:32:31
Speaker
um but i
00:32:35
Speaker
i do I do think that that is true, that it's like somehow we don't believe in wonder or um we don't we aren't moved by the things.
00:32:46
Speaker
um you know the the smell of a newborn or you know all the things you know that we're but of course, we have all those feelings. um or we don't, i some of us are assholes, I'm sure, you know, but. i can I can say confidently that they exist in every demographic. i Yeah, so I'm not, but yeah, i um it's not that my whole life is about, you know, um facts and evidence and all that stuff. It's just, um yeah, it's just, I think it's very important. And I think,
00:33:24
Speaker
Well, our election um is proof of this. It's very important to be able to distinguish um fact from fiction. And um and I feel like it's it's scary the extent to which ah some of us don't.
00:33:43
Speaker
And it's scary to the extent to which um people in power are... Trying to make it even harder, harder and harder. a A dearth of imagination and wonder and having faith in people, I think, is ah is is is out there, too. um And in this in the spirit in the spirit of of being wrong about things, which you brought ok and And being comfortable with it. I'm curious about if ah about a pump the brakes moment.
00:34:08
Speaker
I'll share one of mine and then maybe this will get your hamster wheel running. So when I was completely immersed in the in the world of LGBTQ activism, I was you know helping out with, it as as a straight ally, I was trying to help get you know same-sex marriage passed and I was doing press in high school and I had a i had a real and I had a had a pretty big pump the brakes moment where I finished a keynote speech and i walked off stage and this delightfully um pointed well dressed very clear um confident gay man
00:34:40
Speaker
came up to me and he said, have you even considered the fact that maybe our community doesn't want this? And maybe it's just the straight people who are trying to put us in your in your neatly arranged little heteronormative columns.
00:34:51
Speaker
And maybe we don't actually care as much about gay marriage as you think we do. And let me tell you, I was completely immersed in this cause. And it was like, yeah it was it was everything to me. And I had to take a week off.
00:35:03
Speaker
I had to really sit back and pump the brakes and go, whoa, have I been doing something that is not good for this community that I care so much about? So I'm curious because you wrote a book about this. And as I said, off the top, you're a famous atheist. Have you ever had a pump the brakes moment in your life where you're like, oh boy, i might need to rethink some things. Has that ever happened to you Oh, that's a great question.
00:35:23
Speaker
ah Sure. um in terms of atheism, i I haven't felt that yet because I'm very... I am very clear, i think usually in my speaking and in my writing that I'm not trying to i'm not trying to talk anybody into giving up things that give them comfort or anything like that. I mean, I'm really, if this is what you believe,
00:35:49
Speaker
fine. um You know, I want to make it clear what an atheist is and isn't. And I want to make it clear that you can have a rich and meaningful life as an atheist. And I want to you know, I want to think about things and what, what, um ah you know, what,
00:36:06
Speaker
what does bring meaning to life and what, um you know, how we can replace some of the things that we don't get if we don't believe in the Supreme being. So hasn't really been about that, except, except perhaps, you know, I do have to remind myself every once in a while, as I said earlier on, how easy it is for me.
00:36:28
Speaker
how easy it is. You know, I am not surrounded. I'm not living in a, in the Bible belt. I am not living in ah you know, a very, ah Southern Baptist, you know, African-American community.
00:36:40
Speaker
I am not, well, I mean, I'm not living. um I'm not living in one of the countries of the world where being an atheist is you know, a crime. um you So, yeah. ah So I,
00:36:55
Speaker
it it's easy for me and i I want to bear that in mind, partly because I don't want to make it sound like it's easy for everyone else and partly because I feel like, again, my my responsibility is even um greater because I can speak out.
00:37:18
Speaker
um There's no risk to me basically at this point. So for the sake of people who can't, I think it's, you know, in terms of visibility, it's really important that I do. And because I have um nice person face.
00:37:31
Speaker
Yeah. NPF, you have it. I'm pretty sure. yeah I know. i Okay. So that, so that no, but probably the thing that, probably the thing that
00:37:43
Speaker
yeah probably things to do with um diet culture, fat phobia, oh things like that. um And that, you know, my daughter has been really helpful with, um that's just, that's a really hard, um it's a hard current to swim against.
00:38:02
Speaker
yeah yeah Not just in the culture, but in, but, you know, it's just like, it's just like, it just was like, you know, fed to me as a child. And I really have to, fight all the time um yeah against that so that is something where million dollar thing like you're up against yes yeah crossed with you know the power of the patriarchy crossed with all kinds of things and so um so that if i look back on i wasn't terrible as a as a mom but there were definitely things that i regret um
00:38:39
Speaker
Yeah. So that is something that I'm, I'm trying to, um, stay on top of, uh, it's tough in this culture. And, um, so, uh, that's when you seeing it, you've, you've, you've, you've put it in your hand and you've looked at it. That's, and that's, yeah that's how you get there.
00:38:57
Speaker
That's a start. I mean, i might I have a, you know, uh, a gay son and I've learned, um You know, i've put my foot in my mouth like few times and, you know, he, I, yeah, I, I, I've gotten, uh, I'm always learning and I I'm always learning. I'm always learning. I'm always, um trying to get it right. And I think that attitude is essential and I'm hoping that it keeps me from like ossifying into, you know, an old cranky person, you know, I'm just, I'm really hoping,
00:39:33
Speaker
Okay, well, let's let's take the version of you that lived that lives in New York and yeah but let's put that person in the place that you just mentioned. Like, let's put that person in the Bible Belt or in a place that's not as comfortable.
00:39:44
Speaker
So if you're in a place that's not as comfortable for you to live in, what's the number one thing that you would wish that could be
Morality Without Religion
00:39:51
Speaker
cleared up? Like a common misconception with either like humanists, atheists, agnostics.
00:39:56
Speaker
What's the thing out there in the ether that that's the most, I guess, common or prevalent or omnipresent? that is incorrect about atheists? Yeah,
00:40:08
Speaker
that is a good question. What is most common? i mean, beyond just the idea atheists are... that atheists are Well, I guess that it's morality.
00:40:20
Speaker
I guess it's that's what it is. It's the question of whether or not an atheist has any morals at all. um and Because, ah yeah, so that's what it is. And I think that, um you know, that is another of the chapters in in in the second part of the book is talking about, you know, where ah nonbelievers get their morality.
00:40:41
Speaker
um I mean, the easy answer is it's wherever religious people get their morality because they don't get it from them. They don't get it from their religion. So, you know, it yeah um But yeah, I think that would be the thing would be. And, and as an atheist, to the extent that I could be known as an atheist, which maybe I couldn't, I don't know.
00:41:03
Speaker
um That would be the sort of constant, my sort of constant, um, Hmm. my constant mission maybe was would be make it clear that I, you know, I, I know right and wrong. I teach my kids um ha to try to distinguish from right and wrong. And I try to, you know, live by, live by a um my ethics.
00:41:31
Speaker
So yeah, I think that's the main thing. On that note, as a, you know, it's yeah. The, the idea, how could you possibly, have a sense of right and wrong without a Bible under your arm.
00:41:44
Speaker
like that's yeah i've I've had that thrown at me a few times ah in my life. and And I go back to my my grandma, Marian, who was a devout Catholic, was in her church every week and brought me into the choir and stuff.
00:41:57
Speaker
And really the only time I ever saw her in a moral conundrum and the only time when I saw her be really have a struggle with what was right and wrong was when she was trying to figure out what her church people would say.
00:42:08
Speaker
i I remember her going her be having a fear of like, well, if I believe in this, then, you know, ah Father Rushford will think less of me. And you know she had a really good moral compass.
00:42:19
Speaker
And that it was okay for her granddaughter to marry a woman. But her concern was like, well, what is the choir going to think? You know, so my grandmother was a really good, warm person, but only got into these conflicts when she was like, let me see what Leviticus says, you know? Yeah.
00:42:36
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. what Well, no, it's true because, because, um, well, I mean,
00:42:46
Speaker
It's actually it's actually so much easier to tell right from wrong if you would do not ah subscribe to a religion because you can go by your moral compass and you don't have to spend any time squaring your moral compass with whatever you've been told.
00:43:02
Speaker
um You know, so oxen you own. Yeah, you don't we don't have to do that math. you don't have to um You don't have to make it match or or bend,
00:43:14
Speaker
bend um you know. And I, yeah, I think it's very important for for for people to understand that. I don't really understand why people can't get that, I guess. um Because even if you just take Christians, even if you just take people who theoretically believe in the same scripture,
00:43:35
Speaker
the verses that they focus on or don't focus on, you know, the the lessons that they take from it or don't take from it art differ across denominations, with you know within denominations, across different churches. It's sort of like clearly...
00:43:52
Speaker
You are following some guide other than this book because you're using that guide, that inner sense of right and wrong to interpret this book. And you're doing it differently from somebody else. So, I mean, it seems clear, but we don't.
00:44:10
Speaker
Yeah, ma there's no there's no shortage of Bible verses that do that you could very easily use to support same sex marriage. Like it can't be done. No problem.
Interpreting Religious Texts
00:44:21
Speaker
That's an easy one. no problem I do want I do want to talk about something that that you you have this real, real dynamite a phrase called to the truth spectrum.
00:44:30
Speaker
That's pretty good. Is that, first of all, is that, is that yours? Cause that's me. That's strong. That that's like a, that's like a whole other podcast or an NPR series or something. Like it's pretty good. That's a good title. for I would like you to just share this with, with the listeners. Like walk, walk me through the steps of the truth spectrum. Cause it's, it's pretty great. I want that to get out there.
00:44:50
Speaker
more Okay, you may have to help me because um and as a freelancer, I was in my headspace was in many different places today. But so the true spectrum, basically what I'm saying is kind of about this, this topic that we're talking about.
00:45:04
Speaker
um It's, it's, it's, how you think about um you're your particular scripture as ah as a religious person or non-religious person, but how you think about a scripture. And so it goes from the most absolute literal, this is literal truth,
00:45:26
Speaker
to this is bullshit. And along the way of that spectrum, we've got, um you know, this is, there's some truth in this, you know, i can find something in here that that in this story of say, you know, the burning bush or something, I can find that i can find metaphorical truth, I can find philosophy philosophical truth or something like that.
00:45:51
Speaker
You know, that's that is a step along the spectrum. um and it and i and i And I find that there's a lot of people who um have gone from the one end of absolute belief. They've moved a little bit where where you know that not everything is literally true. you know It's okay, maybe the earth isn't just a few thousand years old. Maybe maybe that's not really literally true.
00:46:21
Speaker
Yeah. And ah or maybe they've started there with it's not literal truth and gone a little bit more in the direction of, OK, most of it's not true, but it has like poetic truth or something like that.
00:46:35
Speaker
And I think it's useful to have to think about it like that, because, well, for one thing, um you know, like we were talking about ah before, i like fiction. I like things that are made up. I like literature.
00:46:50
Speaker
And so um if you think of um the Bible, for example, as literature, you know, you can see how as an atheist, potentially you could still get something out of it if you wanted to.
00:47:03
Speaker
But it's also interesting to me because I feel like there's a lot of actual um denominations. um or religions that are kind of moving in the direct more and more in the direction of metaphorical truth over time, you know, basically because they have to, you know, as science kind of evolves uh i i think to to sort of survive they have to sort of re reinterpret some of of the things that they would once have said were literally true and and and and um and see them differently right now that we know and now that we know how big the larynx is on a whale right no jonah
00:47:50
Speaker
is not right that has to be okay okay but that's just metaphorical that's just of course now it now that now that we've studied yeah totally no i mean so you can to me my big um because i was never a believer which um uh is sort of the beginning of my story is i was uh um i was raised a reformed Jew and i did all the things i did all the you know sunday school and i ah We did, you know, the Sabbath every Friday and I was bat mitzvah. um But I never really believed.
00:48:29
Speaker
I always yeah um felt like ah God that I was praying to loud and in song and everything was just um was just a character in a story.
00:48:45
Speaker
You know, especially the Old Testament. God is so wacky.
00:48:51
Speaker
They just seem like a character. My dad was a character. Yeah, and i was character Exactly. um so ah So my big journey along the truth spectrum was really in the last few steps where over...
00:49:06
Speaker
you know As i had kids and was was kind of trying to still b and you know still participate in like um Passover seders and stuff like that at my at my in-laws, where am finally like, why am I trying to use this thing?
00:49:25
Speaker
to teach things that I believe in. Like, why am I trying to make the Exodus story about freedom? It's not about freedom. I mean, yeah, you could find something in there or whatever, but you have to do some heavy, heavy interpretation to get to the actual lessons you would want to teach a child.
00:49:45
Speaker
You know, mostly it's about, you know, one people prevailing over another people, one God beating, you know, yeah being more powerful than another God and, you know, damn the consequences essentially. And, you know, whatever.
00:50:00
Speaker
So, um so my, my, my, my journey didn't start with this is ever, ever start with, this is literally true, but still you have to make a decision. You have to think about, or you can think about, I guess, is how much, how much,
00:50:14
Speaker
these religious stories are of use to you and um and and in what way, you know, for us, um there's, they're not going to be that literal part.
00:50:25
Speaker
um Could they still be of use? They could, could they still be holding us back? I don't know. So ah it's interesting, um but I'm glad you like that. I mean, do. I like it a lot.
00:50:36
Speaker
I had fun. So that's important. can i tell Can I tell you the thing I like the best so far? And again, i still I'm still excited that I still have some. I know you've got to get the vegan stuff. I still they still still very have some stuff to go, which makes me happy because I've talked to you. yeah So here's here's my favorite quote in the book so far. Now, I want to give you to set the table for you a bit.
00:50:55
Speaker
um And this isn't to bum you out. This is just to set the table. So, um, I lost my dad and my father-in-law within like roughly about a year of each other, like a little more than a year.
Mortality and Appreciation of Life
00:51:05
Speaker
And so there that was like 80% of like the testosterone in my whole life, just like gone real over the pandemic real fast.
00:51:12
Speaker
And I was tasked with writing their eulogies in both times. And let me tell you, it is impossible to not think about how your own eulogy is going to sound. when you're writing your dads twice, you know, like you just, it's just impossible.
00:51:26
Speaker
i could So ever since, ever since then, ive I haven't really sat with the idea of my own mortality as much as I had in the past couple of years. And there's something beautifully comforting about it in that like foods are a little richer Moments are a little more vibrant.
00:51:44
Speaker
You know, your priorities shift. You know, you you really when you really give yourself a second to to think about the fact that you're not going to be here forever, which is inevitable. Just everything you're everything becomes a little more a little a little brighter, a little stronger, a little more meaningful, which is good. And you also get stressed the less. I find I'm not sure if this is a universal experience, but this is my experience.
00:52:04
Speaker
It's been it's been a weird, beautiful gift. So this sentence from your book really struck me because I'm in that headspace right now. Death is only a mystery because we insist that it is.
00:52:18
Speaker
Please tell me you've sewn that on a pillow because that is so that is so good. and Like that is so such a strong observation. ah yeah What, what, what, what well how did this, how did this strike you? How did you come stumble across? I have to tell you that, you know, it's so, I'm so glad to hear you say that as someone who has experienced loss, um because I still have my parents,
00:52:44
Speaker
i have i i I was concerned and I asked the readers that I had that I really trusted who had experienced loss, like, i don't want to be i want I don't want to be flippant, you know, exactly. i and i and i want to to to really try to face this question um and give it it it the room that it needs.
00:53:11
Speaker
I do love that chapter, i have to say. um You should. and Thank you. um But i feel like, I mean, it it really ties into the truth spectrum in the sense that um
00:53:32
Speaker
so many religious people or sort of religious people, or non-religious people have given up all these other stories, all this other fiction, you know everything else.
00:53:44
Speaker
The one thing that people really don't want to give up is the idea that um after they die, they're still alive. You know, it's like, you know, and so that's like, well, we don't know. We don't know what happens. Who knows? Nobody knows, you know, and i I try to make the point and I'm i'm i' sort of joking around about it some in that chapter too, like ah in that very.
00:54:09
Speaker
that very part, um I try to make the point that no, there's it's pretty clear. you know You sort of see a dead animal, you have anything to do with a dead body ever.
Accepting Death as Final
00:54:22
Speaker
do know. it's it's it's we do know We do know, you know, the the um and so we just don't we just really, really, really don't want to know.
00:54:34
Speaker
We don't want to know. don't like it We don't like it. And so we are doing our best. with And that is the thing that we are still hanging on to. And again, you know, part of me ah sees this this incredible contraption, this this this thing that that we that that we have made.
00:54:54
Speaker
as a species to try to like avoid looking at this truth. And, um and it is something beautiful about it. But if you, if you decide, like you say, if you come to the sort of,
00:55:13
Speaker
conclusion that it's not really a mystery and that it's not really just, you know, we're living in a different place after this or something like that. um It does change how do you how you think about things, I you think.
00:55:25
Speaker
Yeah, i think it's I think it's a gift. I think it really can be. yeah it's been when How long ago, how long have you been living with this gift? Well, I mean, it was over the over the pandemic is when we lost both my my father-in-law and my father.
00:55:39
Speaker
And, ah and yeah, so I've been, it's been, it's been a few years. And it really has, it has painted everything in a different way. And it's, and ah for the better. It really had, it really tightens your laces. It, it keeps you focused on what matters. And it rearranges your priorities. I think all for the better. i can't think of a single downside. Hasn't made me gloomy.
00:56:00
Speaker
Hasn't made me sad. It's done the opposite. It's probably, miss your dad or something. Oh, mean there's no yes, that's the obvious one. Like every once in a while you get, so you get struck really hard with like, oh, he would love this.
00:56:12
Speaker
It's like, you know what I mean? Oh, man, your daughter's doing something really cute. It's like, oh, I wish I could share this with him, obviously. But I mean, all of the residual, all there's all this other side. Psychological, emotional. focus on the positive side here.
00:56:25
Speaker
all these No, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no, I know. there's no you're You're bringing in reality, which is right. You're making me not sound like I am. But besides that, like for emotionally, for you as a person. Besides the obvious things, my dad and I were really close.
00:56:38
Speaker
And I also really came to realize I didn't even realize how close I was to my father-in-law. Yeah, yeah. yeah That really came in a sharp focus too. Like, damn, that guy and I were really close. so So there's all these other so all these other side effects that are relatively positive. And I think if more people would lean into that and just, and I don't think it's as scary as we think it is to think that it's lights out when it's lights out.
00:57:01
Speaker
And I just think we're we're missing out on the, vi the vi again, vibrancy. I'm going to the author here. Is that a word? Is vibrancy a word? Sure, sure. That that sounds like a no.
00:57:11
Speaker
i don't know. We're looking at some vibrancy in our life by knowing that like, hey, we're not here forever. Right, right, right. Not deferring. that Yeah, yeah. Not kicking the can down the road. but Yeah, yeah.
00:57:24
Speaker
Which, I mean, in in in this part of the book, um is ah is it's personally not kicking the can down the road. Right. um Later in the book, I talk about not kicking the can down the road politically as ah as a you know like, OK, well, that's when we're going to get justice somehow is when we're all dead or something like that.
00:57:45
Speaker
Yeah. So ah yo'll you'll love that part, too. Okay, good. I'm looking forward to it. Well, i agree I will say this. if If you're comfortable with me closing on a compliment, ah you're about to get one. So just accept it.
00:57:57
Speaker
okay So i really I really do like the idea of of more people of faith getting to know you because we talked about some stereotypes and then we talked about how, you know, there is some misconceptions amongst humanists and atheists and and agnostics on how, you know, there's there's still a thought out there that, you know, we're we're joyless and we have we have questionable moral compasses and all these kinds of things.
00:58:18
Speaker
But in getting to know you, even just now, you and I in this call, you're not
Finding Meaning Without Religion
00:58:23
Speaker
scary. ah you're you're You're also a vibrant human being with with profound thoughts and and a real lust for life. And you have all these wonderful things that you talk about in your book. And and you have this great ah zest and this these wonderful questions. And you have this rich life and these deep roots, all without organized religion.
00:58:44
Speaker
It can be done. and be it is It is something that you can do. I've had I've had both. I've had. And so have you. You've had the taste of of religion in your life. So have i I was in I was in the choir, for God's sake. I sang in the choir. I had a solo on Christmas. Hello.
00:59:01
Speaker
ah So I've had I've had both. And I can honestly say right now and i'm i you can probably relate to this, too. Right now, I don't think my life has ever been any richer. So it's, ah it can, it can be a gift. All right.
00:59:13
Speaker
So, so I'm going to go ahead and do, say do the, do the bug, the the book plug thing and say, I'm going to assume that your book is available anywhere books are sold, right? People can get their hands on it. Yes. We have, we have little faith, get it in your life. I'm enjoying it. And I haven't even finished it yet. Oh my gosh. It just gets better and better, Derek.
00:59:30
Speaker
Good review. Completely unbiased. Yes. i I thank you. so What else what else can we where else can we find you? Are there other formats we can find you in? Because now so I'm officially a fan of yours. Oh, awesome.
00:59:44
Speaker
yeah I'm a columnist for the Washington Post. Um, so if you, um, so, and, and actually when that came out a year ago, i did a big piece in the post that gives you a big sense, a good sense of, uh, of it. Um, but you can also go to my website, katecohen.net. And, um, I try to sort of keep it up to date, but really it's the Washington post and, um, and this book and the website.
01:00:10
Speaker
Aces, that's great. that's where you That's where you can find more Kate Cohen. And I feel like if you're even here with us, you're going to want more of it. And I'm about to have more of it myself. All right. right. Well, enjoy. That's great. This has been a great talk. I i enjoy you even more now.
01:00:22
Speaker
Okay, good. Thanks so much, Kate. Yeah, you're welcome. Bye.
Conclusion and Call to Action
01:00:29
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at humanistcanada.ca and become a member and or donate.
01:00:49
Speaker
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