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Episode 17 - An Interview with Steve Ghikadis & Michael Stuart
73 Plays2 months ago
Humanist Canada's own Steve Ghikadis sits down with Michael Stuart.
Michael Stuart is one half of the Canadian Atheist podcast. Together with his friend Dean, they have recorded well over 200 episodes and counting. The Canadian Atheist podcast has had a number of notable recurring guests, such as Aron Ra, Dr. Josh Bowen, and notorious Christian pre-suppositionlists: Si Ten Bruggencate and Matt Slick. Beyond Micheal’s rough and tumble exterior is an even rougher and more tumble debater, who’s been pitted up against the likes of Darth Dawkins, and a number of flat earthers, climate change deniers, and general naysayers to reality.
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
And I'm like, what what would you like to talk about? And her face gets more red and I watch this blood like I was boiling inside her. And she's like, I just want you to know that the fires of hell are being s stoked just for you.
Introduction to Humanist Podcast
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens.
Interview with Michael Stewart
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome to the conversation.
00:00:43
Speaker
In today's episode, our own Steve Ducatus sits down with Michael Stewart, who is one half of the Canadian Atheist Podcast. Together with his friend Dean, they have recorded well over 200 episodes and counting. Beyond Michael's rough and tumble exterior is an even rougher and more tumble debater, who's been pitted up against the likes of Darth Dawkins and a number of Flat Earthers, climate change deniers, and general naysayers to reality. Let's begin.
00:01:14
Speaker
You are listening to Humanism from the Heart, a segment that focuses on prominent voices in the secular humanist community. I'm your host, Steve Giacattis, and today on the program we're speaking to Michael Stewart. Michael is one half of the Canadian atheist podcast. Together with his friend Dean, they've recorded well over 200 episodes and counting. I was privileged to be on their show not once, but twice, and I'm expecting a third appearance in the near future.
Debates with Notorious Figures
00:01:38
Speaker
The Canadian Atheist podcast had had a number of notable guests, ah recurring guests, such as Aron Ra, Dr. Josh Bowen, and notorious Christian presuppositionalists, Cy Tenbergenkate and Matt Slick. Beyond Michael's rough and tumble exterior is an even rougher and more tumble debater, who's been pitted up against the likes of Darth Dawkins and a number of flat earthers, climate change deniers, and general naysayers to reality. Hello, Michael, how's it going today?
00:02:07
Speaker
Hey Steve, thanks for thanks for inviting me on. Everything's really good.
Pet Stories and Personal Life
00:02:11
Speaker
This is this is a new experience for me. I'm usually on the other side of this. Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. And and I just heard about your new addition to the family.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yes, yeah. so So for anyone who listens to the podcast, um I keep snakes. So I have ball pythons and I just got a kind of a dream dream animal for me, a tangerine, Honduran milk snake named Julius. um And yeah, he's great. He's only about six months old or so. but And he's just a baby right now, but he'll be a little over four feet when full grown. So should be a lot of fun.
00:02:45
Speaker
That's awesome. And I love the name too. The name's perfect for them. so I got to see it. Yeah, I had a couple of different names. One one person suggested Naranya, which is orange in Spanish. um and But I ended up going with Julius, somebody else suggested it. I put a post up on Facebook and it's like, hey, name my snake.
00:03:03
Speaker
And that's how I've gotten names for a couple of the other ones that I have as well. um And Julius just kind of tickled me and and my wife loved it as well. So that's- Yeah. And I'm wondering if they went with the orange Julius, like the the the shop. i think that's I think that's what they were going for. um Because i it didn't even cross my mind. They're they're obviously much smarter than I am.
00:03:24
Speaker
All right, so I'm goingnna just going to ask you some questions, and then that way we can narrow down what we want to talk about today. and So what was your inspiration for the podcast?
Podcast Origins and Co-host Connection
00:03:34
Speaker
So that's really funny. um most The most direct answer to that question is my wife. So I was sitting at my ah um my desktop computer, which is down in our in our basement. And I was watching YouTube, and I was yelling at my computer screen.
00:03:50
Speaker
talking, you know, basically responding to this video that I was watching. I forget who it was at this ah at the time. But I just kind of going off on all the silly things that were being said and all the all the kind of terrible justifications for things that get said in the things that are said in the Bible and propped up, propped up by some Christians to be this kind of this objective moral standard. And um When I turned my computer off, my my wife looked at me and said, you should start a podcast. You've got so much stuff to say, and it'll keep you out of the basement yelling at your computer. And so I called my friend Dean, and I'm like, Dean, I'm starting a podcast, you want it? He's like, all right. And seven years later, here we are.
00:04:34
Speaker
That's awesome. So I actually have a couple of questions about Shannon and Dean, so i'll I guess I'll ask that next. like um So I always hear Shannon on the intro and her part is hilarious. And I'm just wondering, does she ever make an appearance on the show? She has, ah she has yeah. um On a couple of different occasions, um she's she's come on to talk about a couple of different things, but there was one Christian guest that we had, his name was Clay. And it's probably going back about three years or so.
00:05:01
Speaker
And Clay messaged me because he wanted to talk about um the pro-life versus pro-choice question. And my response to Clay was, there's no way I'm just going to have three guys sitting around talking about pro-life and pro-choice. So like I typically say that my wife is one of the smartest people I know. She's much smarter than I am.
00:05:24
Speaker
And I said, so if we're going to do this, I want to bring my wife on and he didn't care. And when I had mentioned it to her, she's like, all right. And, uh, it was, it was a huge hit and it it continues to get regular. Uh, when I look at kind of the, um, the analytics for the podcast, it continues to to still get regular downloads. That's awesome. Um, well, how did you and Dean meet and how did you find it that you both were non-religious?
00:05:51
Speaker
So Dean and I met probably about 10 years or so ago. And we met through so Shannon, Shannon knew Dean's ah wife.
00:06:02
Speaker
through a book club, basically. you know They get together and they pick a book and then read the book and then sit around and talk about it, have a couple of drinks and hey and some food and stuff. And so Shannon got to know her and um there was ah basically a pool party um in the summer, basically when they were wrapping up kind of like their season of of books, they had gone through kind of like a year's worth of books.
00:06:28
Speaker
And one of the people in the book club say, hey, you know let's have a pool party at my place. And Dean and I had not met ah before then. And we started talking. And we kind of both had similar interests kind of you know in that in those veins. And the rest is history, so to say.
00:06:49
Speaker
That's awesome. So you just kind of met as a fluke, I guess, or like, you know, just from, from friends, friendship. So that's kind of neat. Well, yeah, because I mean, it's kind of like, you know, when you, and I'm sure, you know what this is like, right? You know, you, ah you know, your wife has friends, you have friends, and then you have common friends, right? And you don't necessarily like all your wife's friends, and she and she isn't necessarily like all yours. um And so I didn't know what I was getting into.
00:07:13
Speaker
right when I was going over there, because I thought, OK, so I'm going to be a bunch of people there that I don't know, but you know what the hell? and and yeah And Dean is the only one of that kind of gaggle of people that that I still have anything to do with. Nice. So it's like a Venn diagram of friendship. So it's your friends, her friends, and then in the middle is Dean. So that's kind of neat.
Challenges of Atheist Advocacy
00:07:35
Speaker
Yeah. And Dean and I become like he's probably one of my best friends now. Awesome. um and And how did you find out that he wasn't religious?
00:07:43
Speaker
ah it was kind of um I was wearing one of my atheist themed t-shirts to which I could probably, well, let's see. We could start out on a Monday and I could wear an atheist themed t-shirt of like varying degrees of um controversy for every day for probably four months and not wear the same shirt twice. Wow, four months. And not have to go wash any of them and wear them a second time.
00:08:11
Speaker
And and so and it's one of those things where there are some shirts that I wear like so I have a couple that like one of them that my wife is kind of like she doesn't cringe over. But one is just says it just says good without God. She doesn't have a problem with that. But I have one that's the subtitles of Christopher Hitchens last book, God is not great.
00:08:32
Speaker
right and I have this so it's just t-shirt dot is not great and she kind of cringes when I wear that um but and but I oddly enough what I found is it's been an amazing conversation starter not always not always great uh I can give you one example I was uh I was wearing this one of one of the t-shirts one time. And I stopped in to get ah to get a drink. at it was during It was during the dollar drink days at McDonald's. So I went in to grab one of the big drinks for a buck. And I pay for it, I'm going in and I'm loading it up. And there's this sweet little old lady there with blue hair. And she kind of looks at me and her face is a little red. And and she just kind of comes up to me, she says, I'd like to talk to you about your shirt.
00:09:20
Speaker
And I'm like, ah this is awesome, this is great. And I'm like, what what would you like to talk about? And her face gets more red and I watch this blood like I was boiling inside her. And she's like, I just want you to know that the fires of hell are being s stoked just for you.
00:09:36
Speaker
And I just kind of looked at her and I thought, you know, cause this late, you know, and to be a little hyperbolic, but she had to be about 300 years old. um And I just looked at her and I thought, what can I say? What can I say? And the first thing that came up out of my mouth was how Christian of you and just walked away.
00:09:54
Speaker
and And so, you know, some of the interactions are decent, like, you know, I'll carry little business cards, business cards, ah cards for the podcast. And I was like, you know, hey, somebody mentions my shirt, you know, talks about my shirt or something like that. I'll say, hey, we do a podcast, give us a listen and stuff like that. And so sometimes the interactions are decent and sometimes not so much.
00:10:14
Speaker
Yeah, I have one of your your cards and they're great little Canada flag on it, which is awesome. um I had a similar experience and I wrote about it in my upcoming book. So I'm going to give people a little freebie here, freebie preview to that chapter of my book. But I have a shirt that says, there is no hell be kind anyway. And a gentleman with a handlebar mustache came up to me and and basically said he was going to punch me in the face. And I said,
00:10:42
Speaker
Why is that? And he said, well, because your shirt. And I said, well, my shirt tells you to be kind. And and then he says, oh, yeah, well, I should just punch you in the face. And I said, OK, well, what does the Bible say about help? And he says, I don't know, I haven't read it. So the I just walked away. Yeah, that's the end. That's a that is a ah very telling ah kind of truth that I have found to be almost universally true.
00:11:10
Speaker
um you'll see lots of memes sometimes right um you know go on facebook and stuff like that there's one of my one of the memes is um you'll find the road to you know you'll find the road to hell paved with bibles that have been read cover to cover by atheists um and i i still i i have an audiobook version of the bible on my phone as well as a print version and i look at it all the time and one of the reasons i do that is i mean i'm so When people say atheist, you know, there's a couple of different definitions of people who will use, right?
Journey to Atheism
00:11:43
Speaker
Some people will go with the kind of lack of belief or, you know, well, I just don't have a belief. And then there's kind of the more philosophical definition is and that is like from the SEP or the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that actually defines atheism as the belief that gods don't exist. That's the stance that I take. Like, yes, I don't believe, but I am also convinced that they don't exist.
00:12:04
Speaker
And when people ask me, well, you know, how, how are you so convinced that God's own isn't like, have you read the Bible? Right? Like that was one of the first things there's my, my experience was not dissimilar to that of a guy, I'm sure you've heard of David Smalley. He hosted the Dogma debate podcast for years. That's that was actually my first introduction to Arran Ra because Arran was on his podcast as well as Nate Rachel Nannon Brown, who was a paleontologist. We're kind of like the the three of them to Dogma debate together.
00:12:32
Speaker
And um ah Dave Smalley wrote a book called Baptized Atheist. yeah i have a copy And when i when I read that book, there were a lot of parallels because it was basically, the the story that he tells is basically when he got baptized and the basically the pastor said to him me, you know, you can't just say the word, you have to actually believe it. And for me, it was it was when i was i was I was struggling with my faith. And so I doubled down, I'm like,
00:12:58
Speaker
I have to I have to be better than this. So I have to read more, I have to study more, I have to research more. And ironically, that's what led me away from my faith. Yeah, it happens to a lot of people, right? You dig down a little bit deeper and you start to see the paint isn't ah fully set on the wall. Well, yeah, I mean, for me, it's just on my I've i've probably read the Bible cover to cover six or seven times now. Wow. And It's, the more I read it, the harder it is to get out of Genesis without just going, I mean, come on, like who thought this stuff up? um You know, and I, i ah Dr. Josh Bowen, who's been on our podcast so many times, now I joke that he has keys to my house. um he's He's just this unbelievably giving ah man. And he's also happened to be an expert in the ancient Near East. And he, in the,
00:13:54
Speaker
The story that he will relay commonly is he did his PhD at Johns Hopkins and he all of his education before that was at like fundamentalist Bible schools.
00:14:06
Speaker
And when he sat down with his family and said, you know, I'm going into this, you know, kind of secular school and all of his family and friends were like, are you are you scared? Are you worried? You know, going into this den of heathens. And he he talks about how he stood up and proclaimed that he was going there to win souls for Christ. And three, four months into his studies there, when he started getting all this information on not just you know not just the literary text itself, but also the the archaeology and the geography and the and all the historicity around it. And he's he's he will he will typically say he left his Christianity kicking and screaming. yeah He had no desire to leave it. But he was faced with this unbelievable amount of evidence to the contrary.
00:14:48
Speaker
And my my deconversion wasn't as powerful as his, and I'm certainly nowhere near as smart as he is. but there there are parallel and And like you said, there are parallels that you'll draw. You talk to these believers who have or ah former believers that come away from their faith, and there are these ties that seem to link us all together.
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. And I'm still like kind of in the camp of being an agnostic atheist. um And I'm using like the the other term ah of atheism, which is basically just not being convinced. um But I do you know understand where you're coming from. And I do feel like there are definitely versions of um a god or Yahweh that can be proven to not be to not exist based on like the contradictory characteristics.
00:15:34
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that's one of the things. like when when you um When you start to go down some of these social media rabbit holes of you know either either YouTube or some venues like Clubhouse or Chatter or some of these other places where you go onto these rooms and talk to people, you'll run into a lot of philosophy bros and stuff like that. And I'll typically say, I know just enough of a philosophy to get myself into trouble.
00:16:00
Speaker
and So, you know, but but what you said there, yeah, like, you know, the logical contradictions like if you can, if something is contradictory nature, then it can't exist. Right. Yeah. And one of the things that I'll commonly reference is, you know, if we look at the state, you know, like a lot of believers will say, look at the state of the world we live in, you know, the end times are, you know, the end is nigh.
00:16:22
Speaker
And I'll kind of flip the script a little bit on and say, look at the world that we live in and then look at what it talks about in the Bible. 1 John 4 says that God is love. There's no ambiguity in that. 1 Corinthians 13, biblically defines love as kind and patient, et cetera. It's the verse you hear at weddings all the time, love is kind, love is patient, love is not boastful, blah, blah, blah, right? When you look at things like that, and then you compare that to the world that we experience,
00:16:52
Speaker
These are irreconcilable. And I think the biggest reason why they're irreconcilable is because this God is supposed to be perfect, right? And either you or I, given the opportunity, and if we had the power, in five seconds, we could make the world a better place than it is now. Yeah.
Humanism vs Religious Doctrines
00:17:13
Speaker
and i And I feel like you know we're biased on this, but I feel like that's why humanism is superior um philosophy.
00:17:21
Speaker
when it comes to this type of thing, right? Because um we're basing everything and and putting the main focus on wellbeing, compassion, kindness, right? Yeah. Morality is probably one of my favorite things to talk about. And, you know, the common question is, you know, what is your objective moral, you know, standard? And I i am convinced there's no such thing as an objective moral standard.
00:17:47
Speaker
And it gets into that little that little bit of philosophy to kind of get to that point. If you look at kind of the standard definition of objective, it means mind or stance independent, right? Well, then you look at the Ten Commandments. And these are things that God has said you either must do or must not do.
00:18:04
Speaker
right So if if you spend 30 seconds talking to a believer and you just ask a couple of questions like, you know is God an agent? like does he is it Is he an entity that has thoughts, feelings, desires, and wishes? Well, if you read the Bible, it's clear. The Bible says he wants for no one to perish. He wants for everyone to come to salvation. So God has desires. By definition, God is a subject. And so the things he says are just his subjective opinions.
00:18:31
Speaker
Yes. right yeah There cannot be an objective moral standard if you you thou shalt not murder. Why? Because God says so. That's his opinion. Yep. And it's funny too, because I've had this conversation with people before where I've said, um if you can name seven of the 10 commandments, I will buy you lunch.
00:18:54
Speaker
And I've never had to buy a believer lunch. Yep, that's very true. And yet either one of your I could could sit and just rhyme off all 10 and 15 seconds it's super easy. um I'm reminded of um one of the discussions Christopher Hitchens did once.
00:19:11
Speaker
um And he said, you know, when you talk about this, you know, this he he always called them the Decalogue. He said, you look at the Decalogue, he said the first four have nothing whatsoever to do with morality. They're just edicts, they're just commandments on basically the what he said was, I'm God, don't piss me off.
00:19:26
Speaker
right Those are the first four. He said the only the only three that are in our present morality in any way, shape, or form is murder, theft, and and perjury. right The other ones are wholly subjective. you know He said coveting, you know like the the idea of coveting could be used to justify the American capitalist system.
00:19:45
Speaker
ah You look at honoring your father and your mother. Well, does that count for even even parents who were neglectful or abusive? Do they deserve honor as well? right It's really easy to start seeing how these things are just are just what somebody thinks and feels.
00:19:59
Speaker
Yeah, and you can see this is why people have to compartmentalize their ideals, right? So they can you know have that cognitive dissonance and in one side believe something and on the other side be logical and that neither the two shall meet.
00:20:16
Speaker
Yeah. right So this is something else that the Hitchens said, he said, he looks at, um, he called, he called religion, the great, um, the great cafeteria, right? Cause you go into a cafeteria, you take the things you like and you leave behind the things you don't like. Yeah. And I think we talked about some that on your podcast before where it's like, there's, if you sit two believers down beside each other, they're not going to believe the same thing. And you do that over and over and over again. And.
00:20:43
Speaker
No two believers will believe the exact same thing. Everyone's got their own version of what they believe. That's right. And there are lots of um one of the YouTube channels I spent a good amount of time on is one called standing for truth.
00:20:54
Speaker
a guy named ah dadty Donny Bodinski. He's a fellow Canadian, so I can't be too rough on him. But he's a fundamentalist six-day, 6,000-year-younger creationist dude who lives close to Windsor, actually. And um he yeah I've been on his podcast several times, and I've watched i've on his YouTube channel, said and I've watched a lots of his videos.
00:21:16
Speaker
And he has these kind of like dueling Christians come on talking about things like ah once saved, always saved versus conditional salvation. know can you you Can you lose your salvation? And here are people who wear the mantle of Christian, who go on ah on a yeah a YouTube platform to argue about who's right over one of the doctrines within their belief. Because they can't agree. Yeah. And it's happened on stage a few times with some prominent believers as well. Yeah, absolutely.
00:21:43
Speaker
Absolutely. It happens all the time. And at one of the, I think, is it one of the reason rallies, I want to say, where, again, a guy mentioned before, Dave Smalley, was interviewing Eric Hovind and Cy Tembruggenkate. And he posed questions to them. And after about three or four questions, he looked at them and he said, you guys don't even believe in the same God. Yeah, I remember that.
00:22:14
Speaker
And and it's it's interesting because, and and again, going back to something Hitchens said once, he's like, and you'll see that so many so many times with believers, you know, that because every every believer thinks they have a God of their very own. They have a personal relationship with this God. Because it's funny that God never disagrees with them whenever they come up with something. Exactly. God loves all the same things you do and hates all the same things you do. Isn't that interesting? So present and company excluded. Yeah. Who do you think your favorite guest was and why?
00:22:44
Speaker
Oh, that's really hard. um One of them has to be Cy Tambergenkate and I'll explain why. So Cy and I had been emailing back and forth in basically an email chain between Cy, myself and James for modern day debate. And we were setting up an occasion to go on to modern day debate to have this, you know, God debate.
00:23:12
Speaker
And Psy kind of dropped off a little bit. And so I sent him an email excluding James. you know I just wanted to see like if there was something he had bad blood with James or something. I didn't know. Turns out he didn't. But anyway, I said, like hey, you know you've kind of dropped off this. you know James and I are emailing you. You're not getting back to us.
00:23:32
Speaker
And he sent a very kind of telling email. And basically the email said, and I'll pay her phrase it, listen, I do these things all the time. You and I only live about two hours apart. He lives at just the other side of London. And I'm- He's in St. Thomas, I think, right? Yeah. And I'm just East. And I actually, I think he doesn't live there anymore. I think he was in Texas now. But anyway, um at the time he lived in St. Thomas and I lived in, you know, just the East, East end of Toronto. He said, we're only a couple hours apart. If you want to do this thing, either you're coming to my place or I'm coming to your place.
00:24:03
Speaker
We set up a date, I gave him my address and he showed up at my house. That's awesome. so So he sat three feet from where I am right now. He, Dean and I sat down and had this discussion. He brought his own little digital recorder because he was convinced that a heathen like me with, you know, devoid of morals would edit it up, you know, edit it to pieces to make him look like a fool. Of course, i I don't do that. I i hate editing. I'm an idiot when it comes to editing.
00:24:30
Speaker
um And I said, you know, let's just have this discussion. And what was interesting was, outs his because you see him online so often, right, on all these videos, this incredibly bombastic nature, but sitting face to face, he was just a guy. And we actually had a really good discussion. And there have been lots of people that I've interacted with, like ah Kent Hoeven, for example. Kent Hoeven, I am convinced he knows he's lying, yeah that he is a dishonest charlatan. But Psy sat three feet from me, and when I told him how convinced I was that i that the things he believed were wrong, and I watched this kind of, I watched the blood drain from him, and I watched his tears wall up with eyes, and he started crying.
00:25:25
Speaker
And I'm like, why are you so emotional? He's like, because I know now you're going to burn forever in hell. And he was genuine, like he had genuine concern, miss I believe misplaced, but genuine concern for my eternal wellbeing.
00:25:40
Speaker
yeah um It's sad that people feel that they have to, not even that they have to, but it's sad that people feel like that is a conclusion that can be drawn from disbelieving something.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, and if I had to chuck up another one, I would probably say, Hmm, maybe, maybe a little bit of a, well, actually no, I'd have to say our most recent guest, Melanie tragic King. Yeah, she's great. She, she, ah Steve, she came on and I tell you, she blew us away. Hmm. Um,
00:26:22
Speaker
I, the one thing I'd say is drop a little kind of ah a plug for her. Go to her website, thinkingispower.com. She is just a wealth of information and she communicates in a way that is soft, but smart and empathetic, but critical. And Dean and I sat here just captivated as she, as she spoke about the things that she was saying, it was unbelievable.
00:26:49
Speaker
Yeah, and you got to meet her at Baja Con, right? Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah, that's awesome.
Podcast Evolution and Mission
00:26:54
Speaker
I know, I was bummed I couldn't make it to Baja Con this year, but... Yeah, next year, brother. Oh yeah, next year, for sure. I'll be there together. Awesome. Okay, so going along the same theme, present company excluded. Who was your worst guest and why?
00:27:12
Speaker
um Probably ah somebody who used to pal around with Si, actually, a guy named Dustin Seegers. um So there was a guy named Ed who had come on the podcast a couple of times, this is probably going back about four years or so, but Ed had sent us an email um and said, you know, basically I want a piece of you guys. So I'm like, fine, come on on, no problem. And Ed, i I don't know what he's doing now. He's kind of dropped off face of the earth to the best of my knowledge, but Ed was a presuppositionist like Psy.
00:27:49
Speaker
And ah he he came on and we had a chat. And then he had towards the end of the first appearance, he said, do you mind if I come on again? I'd like to bring my friend Dustin on. And it didn't click at first. I'm like, ah sure, yeah, more the more the merrier.
00:28:04
Speaker
So then they came onto the the Zoom call and i as soon as I saw Dustin, I recognized this Dustin Seegers, who's somewhat infamous as well, having toured around with Cy Tannen and some of these other guys, pretty hardcore presuppositionalist, I'm right because I'm right, just read the Bible, the Bible says I'm right, I'm right, you're wrong, I'm right. And if you're just, you know, if you need any more convincing, just ask me and I'll tell you how right I am. That kind of guy. And he was,
00:28:30
Speaker
It was interesting because he shared kind of the same stances as Psy and this other guy, Ed, but he was, there was no, ironically, um for being a Christian, there was no humility to him whatsoever. It was just this, this is the way it is, and Again, paraphrase, but if you're too stupid to realize how wrong you are, then you're just going to be firewood for eternity. And it was, it was hard because he was one of the guys, he was one of the first one part of my, my first exposure to
00:29:13
Speaker
to the answer to the question like when when he he would go down this line of questioning and then where you and I would have the humility to say you know what I don't know the answer to that question you know that's something we don't know yet and he looked at that as some kind of a weakness what do you mean you don't know I know how stupid are you that you don't know what I know well if you do you know you're surprised that you're Romans Romans 1 suppressing the truth in your unrighteousness open your eyes you're gonna be firewood And so it was that condescending kind of nature that um he had,
00:29:47
Speaker
you know, towards the end of it, he had said, you know, like to come on again sometime. I think after this is after we pushed the stop button. Did you quote first Peter 315 to him or? I didn't. um But it's interesting. And sometimes when I quote first Peter 315, people will tell me I'm taking it out of context. um not Of course, right. um But ah ah yeah I'm pretty sure it was after we pushed the stop button. It's like, you know, i' like to do this again sometime, like, you know,
00:30:12
Speaker
talk to you never. And I just had no interest in ever talking to him again. I've had decent conversations with, I've had better conversations with Matt Slick than I've than i've had with with Dustin. It's funny because when you first started mentioning it and you were saying this Ed guy first, I was thinking like, he's going to say, I want to bring my friend Dustin on. And then all of a sudden it's him in a wig. It's Ed in a wig.
00:30:35
Speaker
but That's kind of what I picture when you were, where you were going with this. And I was like, oh, this is going to be good. Yeah, no, it, it, um, yeah, it wasn't that, but no, it was just, just a bad interaction. And I had, um, we got lots of feedback basically saying, you know, don't, don't waste your time, yeah you know, like better to interact with guys like Cy where, you know, he at least, again, I am convinced that the conversation we had,
00:31:07
Speaker
never would have happened had we met on modern-day debate, right? Because there would have been that larger-than-life internet audience, right? Yeah, it would have been like a boxing match instead of just a conversation. You've got to be all puffed up, right? You know, whereas, you know, to just come here to this little bitty podcast, right? Like at the time, at the time Psy came on, we were only getting maybe 700,000 downloads an episode, something like that. Which is still impressive.
00:31:35
Speaker
Yeah, but now we get like, i am i just I just did the analytics and shared them with Melanie for her appearance last week, and it was um just around 12,000. Oh, that's crazy. That's really good. So, you know, I should i should share. the um The only reason we are as successful as we are, I really have to credit it to Armin Navabi, who's head of Atheist Republic. Yeah.
00:32:00
Speaker
I met him at Imagine No Religion 7, which was the last INR that was at Toronto, just about eight seven and a half years or so ago. ah We had just started the podcast and I met Armin there and he was gracious enough to come onto our podcast. And then he blasted this out to his worldwide audience. That's awesome. And he's the reason why, I still credit him as the reason why we now get regular downloads from 109 countries.
00:32:27
Speaker
wow I remember when I came on there, you said you did the analytics and you found that there was like this one little tiny island that had downloaded my podcast. And I can't remember the name of the island, but you were like, you had to look it up. And it was like this little tiny island in this Pacific ocean or something like that. Yeah, it escapes me now too. But yeah, I had no idea where it was. And I said to Shan, I'm like, do you know what this is? She's like, that's a place. I had no idea. And yeah, it was like one download.
00:32:54
Speaker
and i go I give her once in a while and um not all the time, but every once in a while, yep, a little down in like one one from that little that island. let's ah Let's clear something up though. the The podcast didn't get one download. It was just one download from that island. It's interesting. when When we first started, we were going like gangbusters every week. Dean was in studio every week, just episode, episode, episode, episode. And I am lazy.
00:33:25
Speaker
It's the reason why we use WordPress as our hosting service for an audio podcast because it's easy. right um I use a Mac because GarageBand is easy. I'm lazy. And um so when the pandemic hit, right you thought, well, you could do so many more episodes. right But Apathy set in a little bit and there was, you know, so much of the, you know, some kind of worldwide strife going on. And we just kind of fell out of the zone a bit, right? And then it, you know, gets harder to get back into. And I think at one point we were almost three months in between episodes. And so it was just giving, you know, had to give ourselves a kick in the ass, be like, yeah, let's go, let's go. And now we are much, we're getting back on track. um And I think this week was episode 204, 205.
00:34:15
Speaker
Yeah, I've seen them come out in rapid succession over the last little while there. I just keep seeing them pop up on my ah on my podcast app there, so that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Really excited to see those pop up. Yeah, it's and it's it's a lot of fun. We had Stacey Grain and her mom Dee Murphy on a few weeks back, and it was hysterical because that that was the first time that we had ever had guests and did some of our new segments.
00:34:42
Speaker
And it was really good because we were riffing off each other and having a lot of fun doing it. And Stacey had to go because she's got young kids too. And she's also on the other side of the country. yeah um so but But her and her mom are going to come on again soon so we can do a nut because um she shared me. she's like She's like, we want to come back on and do the news again. That was fun.
00:35:02
Speaker
Because, you know, we talked about Kat Kerr, you know, and the ridiculous things that she says and stuff like that. Yeah. So it was a lot of fun. But and that's some of the most fun we have is when we is when we're just kind of talking about the the silly things that certain believers do. And I know that.
00:35:18
Speaker
It can be hard sometimes, you know, because people say, well, you know, it doesn't do our cause any good to be demeaning to people. But man, sometimes religious people say funny shit and there's just no way around it. You know, like I would encourage everyone to go to Kat Kerr, K A T ah K E R R. Just go to Kat Kerr's website and just make sure you have a drink first, though.
00:35:42
Speaker
well You can make a drinking game out of her website, it's hysterical. There's this one tab she has along the top and it's called, eternity it's FAQ and it's eternity to facts. Now, this is a woman who has stated that she has been to heaven. She has stated, she she has an attended concerts with Whitney Houston and Michael Jackson in heaven and come back to share the stories. So in my mind, that is fit to mock.
00:36:12
Speaker
And so I do. Yeah. That's totally understandable. Yeah. um Who is your target audience for your podcast? um I would have liked to have thought that the target would have been um like-minded people, and because at first we were just doing news, right? We were just talking about news and stuff like that. And I thought i found my comedic slant fairly early on. And so i i I thought it would be the place for people to come and kind of giggle with us at some of the the silly things that believers do and say. And
00:36:57
Speaker
Then I thought, well, maybe it's going to go, you know, depending on the the kind of people that I reach out to. And this is when I opened up my Facebook page to everybody. Like, I have no blocks on it at all. Everybody can see me, friend me. This, that is Chad and everybody. Chad and everybody. Yeah, exactly. Hi, Chad. Another another Christian listener.
00:37:15
Speaker
um And I thought, well, you know, maybe if people can, you know, different people, people that have these beliefs can listen to it, then, you know, maybe they'll see that, you know, ah atheists aren't these, you know, these these demonic people. And that's when I started kind of branching out and going into other social media platforms, like spending more time on other people's YouTube channels. um The app, the audio app Clubhouse that's out there, I'm sure most people are familiar with it.
00:37:45
Speaker
But I pretty much go and only only go into one room. And it's hosted by a guy named Nate, who was a guest on the podcast. And his his room is called Ask a Christian. And I am their resident atheist.
00:38:00
Speaker
And I go up there and you know they bring me up on stage and people can come and question me and stuff like that. And I'm like, hey, you know my email address is in my bio, send me an email, love to have you on the podcast. And a few people have accepted and then most people have checking out at the last minute, um because they don't wanna kind of subject themselves to that. um But I've had great conversations and letting you know basically letting people know that I'm just a person who happens to think you're wrong about something. Right, exactly. Yep. And I've been in similar situations where I'm kind of the resident atheist at the interfaith symposiums that we have at the University of Windsor.
00:38:44
Speaker
um I don't know how they found me, but the Ahmadiyya Muslim Students Association somehow found me online and reached out and asked if I wanted to do that. And I said, yeah, that'd be great, except for would you be able to call it atheism slash humanism? Because I'd rather talk about what I do believe as opposed to what I don't. And they were they were totally fine with that. They they called me the atheist slash humanist guest speaker. And it's it's been great. You can find videos online of of my my speeches there and the other people's speeches. and it was just
00:39:15
Speaker
Nice time to get and talk to different people of different belief systems and find common ground.
Humanism in Believers
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah. i Can I ask you a question? what how many How many believers do you think are humanists? I would say a high number.
00:39:32
Speaker
um you know, including people like my wife, um who, you know, everybody, well, not everybody, but everyone who knows who I am within the humanist community um knows that I'm married to a Christian. um But I often say that, you know, she's more humanistic than a lot of atheists that I know.
00:39:51
Speaker
Um, so I would say a high number. I mean, we're looking to a population of non-believers being an extreme high right now. So 34.6% of the population of Canada, um, claiming to have no affiliation with religion. The number's probably higher than that. Cause there's a lot of people that don't want to come out about their lack of belief. but Um, and then like the Christian number, I think is like 53%. But if you break it down into Catholics and Protestants, it's actually lower numbers than the non-believers.
00:40:21
Speaker
right But then in those communities, how many of those people are actually expressing humanistic tendencies over their religious views? And I always say that about humanism being the non-religious philosophy that you know bases the wellbe it waste bases itself on wellbeing, ah compassion, kindness, and and scientific investigation. There's a lot of people, even in the believer category, that would put that stuff above or before their beliefs.
00:40:49
Speaker
Yeah, that that's interesting I find that very interesting. And one of the things that I've i've always found most puzzling to me is how how much of our Canadian population is either not affiliate ah not affiliated or agnostic atheist or atheist, given that you know the third line of the preamble of our constitution recognizes the supremacy of Almighty God. And when you compare that,
00:41:17
Speaker
to the US, right? Yeah, that doesn't mention that doesn't mention it at all. Mm hmm. Yeah. and they And they say that, you know, one in three Canadians is non religious. But I don't know where these these religious people are, because usually when I'm in a group of people, like 10 people or so, and I it happens to come up. Usually like nine out of the 10 people say, yeah, I'm not really religious or I'm not religious either. And then I'm thinking like, well, where is this? Where are these two out of three that are supposed to be religious? Yeah, I do run across some like my father in law, for example, who attended Imagine No Religion 7 with me. Yeah, I remember that story.
00:41:56
Speaker
um you know, staunch Catholic, right? He's six foot four, you know, French Canadian guy. And, you know, we have great discussions all the time, you know i was like you know, tell me about this, tell me about that. What do you think about this?
00:42:07
Speaker
And we still have great discussions. And, you know, he had, you know, a lot of his friends, of course, you know, Catholic and stuff like that. A good number of Shannon's friends, not necessarily them, but their parents are as well. yeah And like, i've I've been to like one of Shannon's friends, their kid was getting christened and we were invited. I'm like, like, baby, you want me to go?
00:42:31
Speaker
and like I'm and and like, just so you know, like i'm I'll go, but I'm not gonna do any of the stuff, yeah right? Like I'll go to support, but I'm not gonna do the things. Right. And when you think about it that way too, it's like, do you think that they would ever come to one of our events and give us the same courtesy? You know, sometimes I i wonder about that too. Yeah, probably not. And and I still remember the the friend's mother who's like very like fundamentalist Christian, you know?
00:42:59
Speaker
uh was kind of coming up to me and you know and came came over to the table where we were sitting and she went to she was to every table but she went around all the tables and said you know well you know we're going to have a little prayer before we start eating and i just sat there staring at up at the ceiling yeah um and she like when she was done she
Cultural and Religious Identity
00:43:16
Speaker
kind of looked up and i was right in her line of sight and she could tell that i had not had my head bowed or anything like that she didn't say anything right at the time but she came to me later and she said you know i noticed follow study yeah thanks And I told her I was an atheist. She didn't know what that was. And I said, and she's like, atheist. It's like, well, what church is that? I'm like, no, I'm like, I i believe gods don't exist. She's like, well, which ones? I'm like, all of them. But not Jesus. I'm like, yeah, Jesus too. And yeah, I don't know that she ever spoke to me again. Wow.
00:43:54
Speaker
yeah Yeah, and well and then you wonder too how many of them are actually just culturally Catholic or or Christian because um you know they say Quebec was the most religious ah province, but now it's actually like one of the least religious provinces, but everyone I guess still claims to be Catholic because it's their culture. I think probably a lot of them are. am Yeah. But when you do the the actual statistics, like a lot of them don't believe in God anymore. It's just that they happen to continue to carry that Catholic label. Yeah. I wonder sometimes if people would say to us, well, you know, like, do you celebrate that we've already talked about, you know, like week after next is Thanksgiving, right? and you know Thanksgiving get together. ah You know, during Thanksgiving dinner, we'll talk about Christmas.
00:44:43
Speaker
Right. um You know, we do all those things. and So in that way, like if I mean, Christmas has become this, you know, just this secularized, you know, commercialized thing. Yeah. But, um you know, we still do those things. Does that make us culturally Christian? No. I know someone like Richard Dawkins would say yes, but yeah. Yeah. So.
00:45:07
Speaker
um I guess, i just wondering if you could tell us what your favorite saying or quote is and what it means to you.
Admiration for Christopher Hitchens
00:45:16
Speaker
I have a tattoo to my arm. ah Quote by Christopher Hitchens. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. It's a great one. Yeah, he is. So I was lucky enough to Uh, I'd imagine a religion. I sat and had lunch with Richard Dawkins, like not with, you know, just the two of us, right? Obviously there's a table of about 10 of us. Yeah. But I sat at the table with him and I had lunch with him. Um, was lucky enough to, um, meet Sam Harris at a Toronto event that he did a number of years ago. Um, met, uh, Lawrence Crouse, um,
00:45:57
Speaker
was I was never fortunate enough to meet Daniel Dennett, and I was never fortunate enough to meet Christopher Hitchens. He was doing this- So two out of the four horsemen, anyway, that's a good number. Yeah. and um He was doing this this thing called the the monk the Peter Monk Debates, and he was in Toronto debating Tony Blair.
00:46:18
Speaker
a number of years ago. he was he He was sick at this time with this the cancer that eventually took his life. But um I did everything I could. I could not get to that show. And he he died not long after that. And you know people always say, you know careful not to, meet you know don't meet your heroes and stuff like that. And there are many people within the secular, with the atheist movement that have done things. They kind of look sideways, making them a little side eye over.
00:46:48
Speaker
um But I don't think that Hitchens ever did anything that could be looked at as questionable. And I don't think that had I met him that I would have been disappointed by meeting him. I i still listen to, like I have, I've i've read everything he's ever written. The Missionary Position is a great book if you ever wanna read an expose on Mother Teresa.
00:47:14
Speaker
Um, mortality, um, hits 22 is, is memoir. Of course, uh, God is not great. Uh, no one left to lie to, which is an expose on the Clintons and their foundation. Very interesting book. Um, yeah. And I still, I still read his stuff regularly. And for someone that I never met, I miss him. Yeah. And I've heard from people that have met him that said that he's exactly the way he is on stage in real life. It'd have the.
00:47:43
Speaker
you know, the drink and the the cigarette and be the same person that he is up on stage. so Yeah, thats that's what I would imagine. That's what I would imagine. um Where else could we find you or where can we find you? Oh, so ah the best place is just ah the CAPodcast.ca. a podcast dot ca Uh, that's, that's a link to all of our, um, to our, our library of podcasts going back seven years now. But you can also, um, probably input my name, Michael, the Canadian atheist into YouTube. And you'd see me during doing discussions with people like praise. I am, or, um, our friend ding dong, my affection, name for Dr. Dawkins. Um,
00:48:31
Speaker
and and many others on on modern day debates. I did some great great great talks with a guy named Steven, who lives in Ireland. ah his His podcast is called Cider Import. And I did ah i did a, whoops, Siri. Siri likes the idea of that. um we did ah We did a trio of debates. It was Steven, myself, and- I'm not sure I understand.
00:49:00
Speaker
Wow, Siri, shut up.
Memorable Debates and Mishaps
00:49:01
Speaker
um ah We did a trio of debates, Steven, myself, um John Maddox. Oh, wow. Is she calling the emergency services right now? She's not. but um Yeah, ah John Maddox and the now somewhat infamous Smokey Saint.
00:49:24
Speaker
Um, we did a trio trio of debates on modern day debate. So, uh, yeah, I've done lots of those different types of discussion. That's been, and lots of fun. I hate saying, I hate the word debate because it sounds so adversarial. Uh, I prefer just having discussions. Yeah, for sure. Um, and the one thing that I always like about James from modern day debates is his laugh when he gets going. It's so funny to hear him. Um, and.
00:49:51
Speaker
I don't know who the debate was. It was somebody in Darth Dawkins and James just going, oh, Darth, Darth. That's exactly what it was. yeah It's so funny. He had found a way to kind of get around being muted on YouTube streams. and Yes, that's what it was. yeah James had muted him and then he would unmute himself. And I got a lot of time for James. I i love him a lot. i was um I was one of the people who had a pandemic ah milestone birthday. So during the pandemic, I turned 50.
00:50:20
Speaker
And ah Shannon basically went around to a whole bunch of people that I knew in the community and put together ah like basically ah a video montage for me of people wishing me a happy birthday and James was among those. Oh, that's awesome. um Yeah. So like James and Aaron and somebody, Josh and Megan were on there and a whole bunch of other people. And so that was that's you know near and dear to my heart. So I got a lot of love for James.
00:50:47
Speaker
That's awesome. and And it was, I was super shocked to find out that he's actually Catholic because I thought for the longest time that he was atheist. um yeah And he actually talked about it on David Smalley's podcast before he kind of stopped doing the podcast. And when it was called David C Smalley, he had James on there and they talked about that. And I was just shocked because I would, for the longest time, I swore he would have, he would have been an atheist.
00:51:11
Speaker
Yeah, no I know. I knew early on that he was a believer, but he he tried to he tried to make it as kind of a level-headed, like a fair, even playing ground as possible. So he he just he just kept it to himself. If you asked him, he would say, I'm a believer. But if you didn't ask him, it never came up.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah, it was very impressive though, just to be able to see how he was able to carry himself. And and I almost feel like he was more biased towards the non-religious side when he would moderate things. But looking back now, I'm thinking maybe he it just seemed that way. but and know you i don't know I don't know that you're wrong. And I think i think there's purpose behind that because And this is just me, this is me projecting a lot. But I but i guess my thought is he would, you know if if any if any Christian ever decided to kind of you know call him up on the carpet, then he would be able to say, you know you know look, you know i gave you know it's like i was holding you I was holding my fellow believers to a higher standard. I want to imagine he would say something like that.
00:52:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's possible for sure. I just love the story too of him getting that subway tattoo so he can get free subway for the rest of his life. Which is crazy. It's so great. and And it's funny because I told my wife that story and she goes, no way. So I looked it up online and there's actually ah a massive tattoo picture or a picture of a tattoo on its back. And it just says subway all the way across his back. And ye it's just too funny. Yeah. All right, Michael, is there anything else that you want to say to the humanist Canada population and beyond?
00:52:48
Speaker
I think the only thing that I would say is um kind of to puppet what you said a little bit, and that is to just be ah to be kind to people. And, you know, I guess never be afraid to never be afraid to have the conversation. um I was kind of liking it to, you know, like I said, when I before when I was where the where those T shirts and a lot of times we would provoke a good conversation.
00:53:13
Speaker
because they weren't all positive, but but some some of them really were. And if you ever, oh, I got to tell a little story here. yeah It's kind of
Humorous Encounters with Missionaries
00:53:22
Speaker
funny. um If you ever need your house cleaned, just start talking to Mormons. I have to expand on that, of course. um So Mormon missionaries knocked on my door a number of years ago. And but I mean, we'd been doing the podcast for a number of years at this point.
00:53:40
Speaker
But I'm like, hey, this is this could be fun. So started talking to me and we're at the door for maybe half an hour or so. And they're kind of like, well, we have to go. I'm like, feel free to come back. And I thought i thought they they were just gonna, gosh, they were gonna overflow. no No one ever invites them back, right? I invited them back. So a week or so later, they came back. Came into my house, sat down, had a conversation.
00:54:05
Speaker
After about an hour or so, they're like, well, we have to go. I'm like, are you going to come back? And they said, well, here's the thing. If we come back a third time, in according to our mission directives, we have to do a service for you.
00:54:21
Speaker
And I thought, oh, okay, that sounds a little dirty. um But, and and I said, what do you mean services? And they said, well, ah if you had like, so if you needed like, you know, some some yard work done or something in your house fixed, I'm like, really? I'm like, yeah. I'm like, I can't think of anything. And they said, well, think of, the guy's name was Caleb. um And Caleb said, well, think about it. And I'll give you a call, because at this point we'd exchanged cell phone numbers.
00:54:51
Speaker
ah I'll give you a call and you can let me know. So I talked to Shannon and I said, babe, you're not gonna believe this. And so I told her the story and she's like, well, our kitchen floor is always kind of dirty. So I kid you not. I told Caleb this and they showed up the next week with buckets and scrub brushes. And they, so they got down on their hands and knees on my kitchen floor and scrubbed it while they were telling me about the celestial kingdom. Oh. Hmm.
00:55:27
Speaker
That's a but's an incredible story.
00:55:31
Speaker
um It kind of reminds me of my neighbor. He had someone come around from the Watchtower Society. Oh, yeah. I love where it is. Yeah. And ah so he mistook them saying Watchtower Society for a lighthouse, and he thought they were building a lighthouse in town. So he says to them, what, they're building a lighthouse in town without like our permission? Come on in here. We need to talk about this.
00:55:51
Speaker
So they were like, they looked around and like went in this house and then they said, okay, so we're going to share our love of Jesus with you. And he says, what, this is about Jesus. And they said, yeah. And he goes, it's not about them building a a lighthouse in town. And they go, no, we're not sure where you got that from. He goes, Oh, okay. Get out.
00:56:10
Speaker
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure I'm flagged on the watchtower Bible and track society. Nobody, they don't knock on my door anymore. too funny All right, well, I've enjoyed our conversation today. This has been awesome. And it's been amazing. Yeah. And well, I guess we'll say a proper goodbye after you put stop the recording. Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to have you, or I do want to come back on your podcast. I think that would be awesome to have another conversation on there. Hopefully with Dean this time so I can actually see if he's a real person because I never verified his own lies. Dean is not pokaroo.
00:56:41
Speaker
yeah I need to verify that and with my sentences. All right, well, everyone here, you've been listening to Humanism from the Heart, and this has been Michael Stewart, and we will talk to you later. Cheers.
00:56:57
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at HumanistCanada.ca and become a member and or donate. You can also like and subscribe to us on social media at Humanist Canada. We'll see you next time.