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Episode 16 - An Interview with Derek Forgie & Riley Yesno
61 Plays2 months ago
Humanist Canada's own Derek Forgie sits down with Riley Yesno.
Riley Yesno is a queer Anishinaabe scholar, writer, and commentator from Eabametoong First Nation.
She is highly sought after for her words and analysis— called an 'Indigenous powerhouse' by the Toronto Star— she has been a contributor and commentator for some of the largest media outlets in Canada and the world, including the New York Times, BBC World News, The Globe and Mail, and CBC National News.
Riley has also traveled the globe speaking at internationally renowned institutions and events, including the UN climate negotiations, the Stockholm Forum on Gender Equality, TEDx stages, and many others.
Her major project right now is teaching Indigenous governance and justice at Toronto Metropolitan University, and completing her Ph.D. at the University of Toronto, where she studies Indigenous/Canadian politics and is a Vanier Scholar.
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Transcript
Introduction to Humanist Canada and Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
Like who am I to say you're surviving colonialism wrong? yeah I want to know how do you do it in your brain? Like how does this work?
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the Voice of Canadian Humanism, the official podcast of Humanist Canada. Join us as we delve into thought-provoking discussions, explore critical issues, and celebrate the values of reason, compassion, and secularism through the humanist lens. Welcome to the conversation.
Interview with Riley Yesnow Begins
00:00:40
Speaker
In today's episode, our own Derek Forgy sits down with Riley Yesnow, who is a queer Anishinaabe scholar, writer, and commentator from the Abemitung First Nation. She is highly sought after for her words and analysis and called an indigenous powerhouse by the Toronto Star.
00:00:58
Speaker
She has been a contributor and commentator for some of the largest media outlets in Canada and the world, including The New York Times, BBC World News, The Globe and Mail, and CBC National News. Let's begin.
00:01:14
Speaker
Hello hi it's, it's Derek forgy one of the humanists here, we're doing, we're doing this podcast for the humanists and I'm, I'm at the helm today. And I have a fantastic person on the line on the line, as they say from my era, somebody that I genuinely admire and respect. She's a commentator or writer.
00:01:32
Speaker
ah The Toronto Star once referred to her as an indigenous powerhouse, and I agree with that sentiment fully. A queer and ana a shnabe scholar from the Abamansung First Nation. It's Riley Esnoe, everybody. Right there, digitally beside me. And this is the part where the people applaud. Yeah. is Because that's what I do. That's how we know each other. I'm the applause guy for you. We know each other from CTVs and social.
00:01:53
Speaker
Yes.
Riley's Positive Experience on 'The Social'
00:01:54
Speaker
How's that? How's that feeling? By the way, you're you're you're like our new one of our new favorites. How are you enjoying? I love that because I love I love it there. And I tell folks this for like, I've done enough like, you know, I'm at the CBC Studios and like the other studios and they're quite nice. Like, and they're, you know, everyone's always fine and whatever. But like at the social, they're extra nice. oh Good.
00:02:15
Speaker
They take care of everyone very, very well. And so I'm, in addition to like, you know, it being fun to do live, the environment I have found has been great as a guest. Oh, that's good to know. like Well, you also make, but it must be noted that you make my job easier because I don't know if you've, obviously you've got your head in your notes and you're trying to find that chemistry and that alchemy and that secret sauce, but I have my ears, I have my ears on the host and I have my eyes on the audience. And what I'm looking for is like a series of nods so that I can like trigger an applause cue in case they're being too Canadian and bashful.
00:02:48
Speaker
And you make it so easy because you're always ramping up to a point so effortlessly and everybody's with you, even even if you're calling them out for something that you know they're doing. at least And they're still like, she's right, she's absolutely right. but
Managing Passion and Frustration in Advocacy
00:03:04
Speaker
yeah Maybe that is a problem. Yeah. is's like Yeah. You know what? i have I have been doing that. And I should probably, you know, like either they're on your side or they see what the point that you're making, ah which the first thing I want to ask you is like, because i have i I sometimes struggle with this when you're really passionate, especially when you're really versed on something and you know what it's all about and you've lived it and breathed it. Do you ever have a hard time
00:03:30
Speaker
like keeping a lid on that frustration because it just it comes to you so effortlessly like you're so non-confrontational like you have such you you're so disarming but you must have just like a boiling pot underneath you remember a hard time with that lid but Yes, I guess more than anything and this is something I've heard a lot of especially like young women say to me um that ah it used to be for a long time like if I was talking to somebody, specifically about an injustice, and I felt like that they weren't really listening to me or that I had to really defend myself as opposed to just express myself.
00:04:06
Speaker
then I would start to cry like I could feel like it was these righteous tears building and I was like fool and then the really problematic thing about tears is even though they're a supernatural healthy thing everybody treats you like it shuts the conversation down I find pretty like nobody wants to engage anymore. They're like, calm down. um And so it was a lot of training for me to be able to have many difficult tear filled conversations where I like know how to compose myself in a moment, even when internally I'm like, ah so yeah, yeah there is there's a lot of trial and error that gets to that point, but it's totally a thing. And yeah, the righteous tears are the one I distinctly remember the most.
00:04:48
Speaker
Interesting yeah my that's that's fascinating because there's a guy there's a guy named Rick who who's indigenous guy and we'll get into it we'll get into these great conversations and i'll get i'll get fired up about something and he's the one who will be like hey they don't know any better it's fine like i'll get i'll get cranked about an indigenous issue and i'll just be like I'll have my fit. and you'll be like Hey, they're just, they'll get there. they He's the one
Elders' Patience and Youth Inspiration
00:05:15
Speaker
calming me down. he's got a debt He's got at least a decade on me. He's seen terrible injustices. He's been treated so terribly because of racism and yet he's the one who can find an extra gear and and and and just be patient and go, hey, we got it's all right. We're gonna we're going to work this out.
00:05:34
Speaker
okay yeah Okay, now this this leads very this bleeds very um very effortlessly into the thing that I was excited about. there's no There's no word in the English language for this, and there should be, and I've been trying to find maybe ah a word in a different language. It's not in German either, and there's a word for um lauttonic Lutonic excitement. m Okay, let me, let me explain. So, Candy Perlmutter, for example, you must, you must have worked with candy in some way, you know, Candy Perlmutter. So, when I was at home on on ah Pat leave and COVID,
00:06:06
Speaker
And I was watching the social at home. Candy was getting was getting so much airtime and people were falling in love with her as they should have. And I was excited to go back to work to meet to meet her and work with her. And of course, sadly, we lost her in 2021. And I never got the chance to to meet her. And there was one specific conversation that I was i was really interested in having with her.
00:06:24
Speaker
and I never got a chance to. And then along comes Riley Esno and checks off a whole bunch of boxes that I was excited about. And so here it comes. now i get Now I get to have this conversation with you.
Reflections on Activism and Allyship
00:06:36
Speaker
So that's a long walk. I apologize, but I need, I feel like I need to set the table. Okay.
00:06:41
Speaker
yeah i get it So i did I did about a decade of LGBT activism under the HSSE and I'm relatively new to doing my best to become and and a better Indigenous ally. So i'm I'm new to this world but I'm an up and i'm old hat for LGBTQ rights and I've noticed two very different energies from that community. I think you know where this is going. When I was doing all when i was doing the ah the LGBT rights stuff, it was like, all right, let's make some banners and twinks and bears and pans and trans. We're right at dawn. Let's go. There was this. And now with with working with indigenous groups,
00:07:21
Speaker
there's a, all right, there's a deep seated, very deliberate, very like heavy and sincere energy, which is just as effective. and is Has this been your experience too? Or am I just painting with too broad a brush?
00:07:35
Speaker
I mean, no, I don't think I don't think you're wrong in that like I've definitely experienced it, especially for like elders, um like older members of the community who I know have lived through every iteration of indigenous resistance that I can think of between like diplomacy and trying to run for parliament to like armed resistances in the 90s and like there have been I know significant moments where um indigenous people have you know taken up more uh some would say extreme direct action that I think it maybe embodies more of that spirit that we know from histories of like LGBTQI plus uh resistance yeah but
00:08:17
Speaker
I also think that ah in my experience like I feel like a lot of young people love and this is across the board I think a lot of issues like young people um are ready to ride and that that's why like student movements are often a start of so many different or the hubs of so many different movements throughout history the anti-war movement the anti-apartheid movement But I think that there's a lot of, this also is part of the, I think trauma of ongoing colonialism and the histories of colonialism is that I know so many elders who are just like, we know that when we respond um with violence in ways that they don't think is respectable in ways that they don't think is you know diplomatic enough, we get the violence back 10 times over.
00:09:05
Speaker
And I think that there's a lot of fear in having more new generations subjected to that. And so yeah, it's a really complicated one for me because I've also gotten the talk from like my seniors and other people and the things that are like, you need to chill. It's like a steadiness to them, but yeah, I'm like, let's go, let's watch. Yeah, I'm perpetually in awe and I have such a deep admiration for the, like I said, the extra gear of patience that the elders can find. Like even guys my age, when I went to college, there was a guy known named Brent Edwards. He was from Fort Albany. I talk about this story all the time. Like his full name is Brent Asha Beitwateo.
00:09:52
Speaker
And of course, we know how that story goes. They took out the Edoix and made him, you're Brent Edwards now. And he told me this story. And I asked him, I said, how do you pronounce your name properly? And he was Asha Betwa Dayo. And I said, just give it to me one more time. Just slow it down. And he went, Asha Betwa Dayo. And I went, OK, got it.
00:10:12
Speaker
And he went, you're the first white person that ever asked me to do that.
Impact of Colonialism on Indigenous Identity
00:10:16
Speaker
And my heart broke because like it just took me 12 seconds. it's so It's so easy to do. And nobody took those 12 seconds to go, ah, Edwards is fine. I i prefer Edwards.
00:10:27
Speaker
Oh my gosh. Yeah. With the last name, like yes, no, I get a lot of attention on it of people being like, that's hilarious. That's like all these things. I've never heard anything like that. And it's definitely been something that I've leaned into over the years, but also ultimately, like I, if you look in the text of the treaty nine document, um, my ex great grandfather was one of the treaty signatories and they mentioned that he got his last name.
00:10:54
Speaker
Um, because those were the only two English words that he knew were yes and no. Um, and so that's how it happened for me. And so like, yeah, you're right. Every indigenous person, like it took me until I was in my twenties or so to be like, Oh, like white head, yellow head, sugar head are not in Anishinaabe names. Like but and those came from somewhere. yeah Totally. Yeah. Sugar, sugar head weirdly feels racist. I don't know. Like, I don't even know who that's directed at.
00:11:24
Speaker
yeah yeah yeah you I mean like there's so many racial slurs out there that like that feels like a 1920s. I don't know, like a way you'd insult ah ah like ah an Irish guy and get your sugarheads out of my neighborhood. I don't know. Okay, I'm gonna stop there. ah Yeah, so on the on the subject of allyship.
00:11:41
Speaker
um you know like the 12 seconds that I spent with Brent, you know when you come across somebody who's doing allyship correctly, when you when you see somebody you know who's a settler and they are doing it right, like what what does good allyship look like to you?
00:11:57
Speaker
yeah Yeah, okay, I think as like a general principle, one of the things that I think, especially like white ah settler folk have difficulty with is that um they've held on to this like idea of liberal equality that I really don't actually think works in terms of you know what we should be reaching towards so like a lot of people recognize that like you know certain classes of people are up here in society and certain classes of people are down here and they think then the solution is bringing this group up to where they are instead of them having to also go down a bit and to like be able to recognize that like true transformation requires
00:12:39
Speaker
compromise and that most of the time I also um don't need just general support. I need sometimes you say race traitors, like people who are willing to take that what are ultimately hits. It's not a rational choice approach to say, I'm going to ally myself with people um who, ah you know, are more marginalized than me, who by making myself clearly
Genuine Allyship in Academia
00:13:03
Speaker
identified with them, I might put myself in a position of more precarity, give up time, money, potential to land, you know, all these things for this cause and then doing it anyways.
00:13:12
Speaker
um One of the examples that I really think of, and this is like a big one, I think a big act of allyship, but it's just that at TMU, I remember that there was a professor who was um a white Jewish woman and she has done, I think still some of the most excellent work in indigenous land politics over the years. I think she's done a really good job with her scholarship and it's very decolonial and all those good things.
00:13:38
Speaker
um And then she very ah deliberately gave up her position, a prestigious position as like a research director um because she said, I see that there are actual like other indigenous scholars coming up now um that have come up since I've been in this position and they should be this one, this position. And it's been a dream of a lifetime to work here and to be doing this work and I still love it and I still could do it, but I don't think I should be. And she was willing to give up um position and power and money that came with it in order to give Indigenous people more access. And I think that that was like, you know, we all can do things like that in different sort of ways. But for her, that was the most obvious. That's pretty good. Yeah, I respect that. It reminds I know this is this is this is going to seem like it like a zig to your zag. But it reminds me of have you seen the series and or? No, but I hear no
00:14:32
Speaker
Andor, for my money, as far as what's out there, is one of the best examples of good allyship and it's transferable to the LGBT or or even to the indigenous community. It's like not putting yourself up front like Braveheart, not being like the first Avatar movie, but actually being the wind at somebody's back and giving the person the mic that deserves it and helping them find their bravery and their strength. That's what Andor is.
00:14:56
Speaker
And that is for my, for my money is good allyship. So that's my recommendation. um Yeah, and now so a lot of a lot of humanists are definitely without question, you know, allies to the indigenous community. And what I want to talk about is something that my my my wife discovered years ago as a preschool teacher. She ah she was taking popsicle sticks, and again, this was this came from a good place, obviously, and putting you know um yarn around it to make dream catchers for Indigenous History Month. And it's like, this is some time ago.
00:15:28
Speaker
right And then she connected the dots of like, this is not how this is supposed to be done. Like, this is not cool. And and then taught other teachers, like, here's the reasons why that's problematic. So what I want to ask you about is like examples when you can think of what I like to call like, innocently misguided, like, they're not egregious, you know, they're not dangerous, these are not hateful people, but um you're just a little off the mark. Can you think of examples of those and maybe things we should stop doing?
00:15:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I know that what you're talking about for sure, too, and it's so hard. Those are the ones I actually find more difficult to confront sometimes. Right, because they're so innocent and and it's you don't want to take the window to the sales, right? but It's an egregious, racist, whatever. You're just like, you know, so screw you. But like, if it's somebody who's trying their best. um So I feel like A big one that I get all the time is like ah people unconsciously expecting a great deal of labor um in terms of like setting their direction and like doing work for them. and like i ah I for example like I had a lot of people who I grew up with who when they realized that like I was um like in a public conversation about indigenous ah issues and indigenous rights that they would be like hey I'm in university and I'm writing this paper on indigenous
00:16:48
Speaker
Can you look this over and edit it for me and do like all of these things? And I know that part of this comes from also not not just a laziness, but being told again and again that like you should take your direction from Indigenous people, the people that are marginalized to figure out what you should do. ah But instead of that prompting, um ah I think deeper learning and like, you know, ah people don't know necessarily where the recipe, how to embody reciprocity all the time.
00:17:17
Speaker
I'm like, if i would if that was somebody that was in my life and that like you know also offered me things in exchange, that would be a very different ask than like somebody from my seventh grade that I haven't talked to in 10 years. Right, right, right. Hey, I know we haven't spoken in 10 years, but could you just quickly do like a personal TED Talk for me because I'm feeling guilty. Totally, totally.
00:17:38
Speaker
And so like, yeah, I just- Are you breathing the next three hours? I don't like your brain that I'll use. yeah then This person did apologize to me actually down the road. So they eventually did recognize, but I get a lot of stuff like that where I'm like, there's a like, learn to learning how to read the room and how to ask these questions and grow and take from people is like a skill. And it's not just something that, yeah, I think we do willy nilly, but a lot of people do willy nilly.
00:18:08
Speaker
he's Yeah, for sure. And like you said, it like it comes from like this this this hunger for knowledge and people wanting to do better, which is great. But it's got to be exhausting for you. like Are you kidding? like And Google exists. like move There's documentaries. like You can do that. books Books are a thing that you can anyway.
00:18:27
Speaker
ah Yeah, so speaking speaking of like that nervousness and speaking of um You know that place where people are almost there and they're getting there I want to talk about land back for a minute because um there's actually a land back project happening about 200 feet that way from where I live and it's great It's ah you know, I'm loving I'm even I'm even I'm loving the spray paint I'm loving hearing the drums at night and it's fantastic. But man, oh man, let me tell you It it it is sparked up some real conversations over at the sandbox So, um, so, and I just, I sit and I listen and I just, you'll hear, I don't mean to paint with the same brush, but it's like, I'm just, I just don't understand. Like, what's this, what land, like, what land back? Like, are they just going to come to my house? So I just give them my keys then. Like there's, there's, there's this hostile, like I want to know, but I'm nervous. So why should people not be nervous about what land back
Importance of the 'Land Back' Movement
00:19:22
Speaker
means?
00:19:22
Speaker
And just give that some life because I'm personally excited about it. Make other people excited about it. Nice. OK. I love that Land Back has exploded so much. It came onto the scene in 2018 via Instagram memes and young people sharing. Yeah, I remember. And yeah, now it's become this very physical banner that represents these movements of Indigenous people repatriating land.
00:19:50
Speaker
you know getting their authority and their jurisdiction back over land and I think that this is where a lot of disconnect happens for people is first like I think folks have to remember that land for indigenous people is an entirely different relationship than a lot of non-indigenous people have to land like it's not just property like we're not saying like we want to accumulate property for wealth and for all of these things It's like a relative and that is like a core belief of every indigenous nation that I've ever known and so we're doing this to be able to like transform our relationship, our collective relationships to place um is the ultimate goal of Land Back and so um it's not just like I want to have something that you currently have. Right, right, right.
00:20:35
Speaker
It is, I think, even in some ways, like a fine enough logic, but isn't not even what we're talking. right And then the next thing is also, I think there's a lot of fear that stems actually from ah colonial history, where people feel that the only way that you can get power, maintain power, um you can do any significant changes through brute force.
00:20:58
Speaker
how most of the you know modern nation states and powerhouses that we know today all came about is like murdering the people that were there and enslaving people and doing all of these terrible things. yeah So there's this real, I think, implicit fear that if we're getting the land back, it's ultimately so we can do unto them what they've done to us.
00:21:19
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's a that I haven't even considered that. No, you're right. that's So yeah, no, it's a good point. See, cause for me, whenever I hear so land backstories or success stories, like one happened in BC, there's one happened happened just like in Australia last month. i I hear about this patch of land is going back to this band. I'm just like, okay, good. my My climate change heart can just not worry about that patch of land now. like You know what I mean? Like when I hear that going back, I'm just like, okay, it's not going to be deforested. you know it just It's like, it's a relief.
00:21:47
Speaker
You know what I mean? It feels good, because that should just keep happening. But that's not how everybody feels. Totally. And you're right in that. It's right to point out that Indigenous people, we make up 5% of the global population. We protect 85% of the world's biodiversity. In North America, Indigenous action against carbon estimates that blocking pipelines, protesting mines and dams, all those things,
00:22:16
Speaker
have mitigated ah up to um a quarter of all North American GHG emissions in like near periods of time. So again, like five percent of the population carrying a quarter of all of the global emissions from the North on their back. And like it is um something that benefits all of us because like we're saying, the relationship that they're going to be able to foster and pursue by having control over territory is one that ultimately benefits everybody yeah and the Earth. and like that exactly I think where people are like, but reconciliation seems like it's a little bit more about me too, but like, and I'm like, land back is too. It benefits the way you don't quite maybe get right off the top. Yeah. It's like, Hey, Hey, Hey folks, do you like oxygen? yeah How do you feel that doesn't feel controversial to me? Like the politicization of like, well, I just don't know if it just seems like they're asking, I don't know. I'm putting on my white guy voice, even though I don't need to do that. like I just, it just seems like it's too much. And I'm just like, no, it's it's not, it's not going fast enough.
00:23:16
Speaker
And I i connected the dots and for for any humanist watching, ah you know, I know that climate change is is a is top shelf, really important to a lot of people. And so what I tell, what I try and encourage people to do is like the fastest route to climate solution is literally giving more giving more power and more sovereignty to indigenous people because that's top of their mind and that's never going to change. You know, you vote you vote left, you vote right, you vote orange, you vote blue, you vote whatever.
00:23:46
Speaker
That's going to change every four to five years. But guess what? Thousands and thousands and thousands of years, indigenous people made this top priority. This is just this is just the walk of the walk. So it's like if you care about the environment, then you then you should probably just like move that around, make indigenous rights ahead of climate change, because it just one affects the other anyway. you are yeah Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So, ah so on that note, um I'm curious about because I watched an interview where you were talking about monuments and you were talking about plaques and land, land acknowledgments. And you were saying, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of like posturing and sort of like
00:24:24
Speaker
performative ally ship and like look at this wonderful plaque we made about land back and you're like great so are we getting it we're like well no but look at this nice look how nice this look at the embossing you're like yeah that's nice but this belongs to the Anishinaabe isn't that cute we're acknowledging that so uh so what i want to ask you is and like what are we spending too much time on and what could we shift our focus to to get there quicker Oh, that's another great question. And a big one for Canada because um like Indigenous scholars, so the one of the biggest Indigenous scholars is named Glenn Coulthard. He's Dene from the Northwest Territories. And he talks about this era that we've been in since around like the mid 90s as um the era of recognition. And so basically it means that we've just seen successive governments recognize that they have to do something about like the Indigenous issue, quote unquote. And so
00:25:17
Speaker
the way to do that without actually doing anything is to apologize, memorialize. um I remember like the last election when they had the debate, it must have been I guess I think Aaron O'Toole versus Justin Trudeau, something like that. that's correct When they had the indigenous section of the debate, they just went back and forth saying like, who would keep the flag up at half mass longer for like, that's what it ache turned into.
00:25:42
Speaker
yeah And like, the thing is, is that gestures of recognition and apologies and all of these things are important. um But they are are actually can be very dangerous if they're not supported by then material action, because it gives the illusion that we're doing a lot more than we actually are.
From Superficial Support to Real Actions
00:26:01
Speaker
And so like, for example, is like reconciliation is a word that has exploded into political consciousness over the last 10 years or so. But we've only actually completed, I think,
00:26:11
Speaker
eleven calls to action from the truth and reconciliation commission it's not many is that's that what's said it does a dminus no that's yeah anyway like like bad, right? and it that yeah' not good And it's supposed to not be done to like 20 80 or something like that. Yeah. And and so, uh, but it doesn't feel like that. It feels like we're giving more money than ever. We're doing more attention than ever, all these things, because we've really loaded ourselves up with rhetoric and visual symbols. And so, um, what's way more important to me than like, do you give a land acknowledgement? do You give a good land acknowledgement, right? Is
00:26:44
Speaker
Once again, what are you actually doing to divest yourself from like the harmful systems of power that ah keep indigenous people materially um deprived? Yeah, you know, and in that talk I've heard too, like I remember there was when they put a price tag on the boil water advisories.
00:27:01
Speaker
they put They put a price tag on like what' what it's gonna cost to get indigenous people, these communities that don't have clean water yet, their water. And I remember going people hearing people say, ah, yeah i don't I don't know. And I'm like, it's...
00:27:17
Speaker
We're not talking about swimming pools here. Like this is bargain basement entry-level human rights stuff. It's fricking water. Are you kidding me? Like, would you do would you do that if it was Calgary? Would you do that if it was Sault Ste. Marie? Like, would you do that if it was Ottawa? No. Like it it would be done by, it would be done by the weekend. It would be, a guy would show up and go, oh yeah, here's your problem. And it would be solved. yeah Anyway, I'm sorry. now See, this is this is the lid on the pot I was talking about. part where I get myself a drill. in Yeah, so that's good. So i I'm just going to read you something ah that I from the from the humanist website, because I thought it was really interesting. um Because there's there's it feels like there's some crossover here a little bit of event bit of event diagram. ah Humanists are motivated by ethics, compassion, fairness, and guided by the reason by reason and scientific inquiry. We are inspired by history, art, music, literature, and the beauty of the natural world. Now that feels like it could be written on the walls of like a friendship center.
00:28:16
Speaker
You know, like that feels very, it feels very kind of Anishinaabe to me. Like, are you are you feeling, are you getting some some some ah indigenous vibes with with that adage? Yeah, yeah. I feel like it it room it reminds me of like what I feel is like a, yeah, ah a through line or an ethic about indigenous um ontology, I guess we'd say, which is like ah that the sacredness doesn't come from some like divinity that exists elsewhere.
00:28:46
Speaker
um That doesn't exist from like so some higher being some unknown that you know we're just not capable of a lot of people translate it like our indigenous word for whatever would be the closest thing to God as creator, but it actually translates to um the great mystery.
00:29:02
Speaker
And so ah we're trying to say like, yeah, there's something intangible about life, but what makes ah life precious is like ah yeah just the the beingness of of all things. So like in our land, it's reflected in even like our language, we don't gender um any nouns. They're either animate or they're inanimate and way more things than you would think.
00:29:26
Speaker
um in a like you know European Western mind are animate, ah trees, rocks, like all of these parts of the thing. And when things are recognized to be alive, they have rights and they have ah responsibilities to each other. And so um it really, from like the building blocks, I think of an indigenous worldview, there's a lot that sort of mindset in it.
00:29:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're right that there's what what I'm seeing. And again, i'm i'm I'm one of the more newer guys ah to to the to the humanist ah to the humanist out um community. And one thing I keep noticing is that one thing they keep calling like Catholic refugees is a common, is a, you know, or religious refugees, people that like desperately want to be a part of something, they see a higher they see a higher purpose, they want to be a better person, they have a drive or a pull.
00:30:17
Speaker
to be a part of something better and affect a community and be be you know be warm and kind and have a legacy. But they just can't reconcile anymore the religious groups that they were in and they just couldn't get past some of the stuff that they just couldn't align with anymore. And so a lot of them come over to humanists just to have a more fulfilling of fulfilling existence. so ah So that leads me to... the the thing that I've seen being from a small town up north is indigenous Catholics. And they exist there. That's real. And that that seems to be counterintuitive. You know, it feels like um ah this is probably not a great analogy, but like a snail that really likes salty pretzels. That's terrible. I mean, it does seem a little like, OK, do you do you know a lot of indigenous Catholics and and and do you get do you get what they're about?
00:31:04
Speaker
Yeah. i so This is a complicated one because it ties in, I think, very deeply with like the history, especially of residential schools. um And so in my community, I'll say, first of all, is that like ah my family is, ah my indigenous family that lives on reserve, lived on reserve her whole life, um are born-again Christians. and so ah like ah that Catholic Christian tie is something I've definitely experienced and it's always funny to me also being in a place like Toronto now where people have I think really romanticized this idea of like the res and the far north as being like the legitimate indigenous territory and homeland where people are the most indigenous when they're on the land in the north And I'm like, in my community, they were baptizing people in lakes, like, and doing all of this stuff. Like, it's not very traditional in the way maybe you think it is. um And anyways, I digress. I had this conversation with my mom one time, and because it's not something that my grandparents were ever really um eager to talk about, even when I tried to approach it a couple of times.
00:32:09
Speaker
It's prickly. ah Totally. And I tried to at one point, I said, you know, like to my Chumash before he passed, I was like, you went to residential school and you talk about you. I know that that was a terrible experience for you um and that there was a lot of brutality done to you in the name of God um by these religious authorities. And yet you still are like the most religious man that I know.
00:32:35
Speaker
and i i I'm not judging you because I think you're a great, amazing person. um Anything that helps you, like who am I to say you're surviving colonialism wrong? yeah I want to know how do you do it in your brain? Like how does this work? And um he didn't, he like kind of brushed it off. And I asked my mom the same thing. And she said to me, in her experience, it sounded like When they were in residential school, the God that was used to punish them um was this like cruel, um harsh God that you always had to be trying to build up from your point of sinfulness, your inherent sinfulness. And like that was something that was really instilled in them. And then when mission ah when missionaries came to the community, um they said, oh, no, you've just been taught about God wrong. God loves you. He loves everything about you. and like He's your salvation and like all of these things. um And that I can see how it would be a lot easier to um to just think you were taught wrong than to be thought that you were were profoundly abused in the first place. And sure but you should have never had to be introduced to this at all and just be like, oh, I was just led slightly, led a bit astray.
00:33:51
Speaker
And I think mentally I can see how that might be an easier easier path. I don't know that that's everybody's story, but it seems, ah it really spoke to me of being like, oh, that could be a real protective issue from what is like a really complicated history of religious trauma. hu Yeah, that's that's a messy one for sure. there's There's no easy answer to that one, but it it always, it always interests me. Like I have, I really have to go, huh, really? you know like Okay. Hmm.
00:34:21
Speaker
Great. Whatever floats your boat. Yeah, whatever gets you through the wafer. Like, hey, sure. Like, it's just fascinating. People are complicated. People are fascinating.
00:34:33
Speaker
um On that note, ah we're we're in the thick of of a pretty major election here, like Turtle Island as a whole with just two like looming big elections coming up ah all over North America, and I'm curious, you out you made up a really good point about um the conflict that indigenous people feel about voting in elections.
00:34:53
Speaker
You know, um because it's always thrown in their face of like, oh, you guys never show up to vote. And if you want change, you want to go to vote. And the point that you made about the conflict that exists ah with indigenous communities and voting in federal elections was so brilliant and I think really needs
Indigenous Participation in Elections
00:35:08
Speaker
to be known. Can you just just walk me through that again? Because I think people need to hear it again.
00:35:12
Speaker
Yeah, um so ah when it comes to elections, I said one of the things that I think is really upsetting for Indigenous people is that they didn't want to be Canadians in the first place. Right. And that all of the Canadian institutions that ah they're forced to live under every day are just that. They're imposed and they're forced on them. And I think for a lot of Indigenous people, voting willingly in those systems um is a way of implicitly and explicitly validating that system. um And I think it's ah not an unfair thing for Indigenous people to say like, that's not my, I'm not supposed to be a Canadian, you're not supposed to be my leader, why would I pledge my support to you in this way? yeah um And so I think that that's one really big part of it. um And on the other end of things, i even when you feel that way, I think indigenous people are trapped in this like unfortunate limbo where they're like, okay, that's my ideal. But the reality is, is I live in a world where whoever is elected and what happens does profoundly affect me in my communities. And so we end up seeing ah indigenous people voting very much in this position, ah from this position of harm reduction. yeah
00:36:27
Speaker
um where they say, I recognize that none of these leaders are actually going to transform things for me. But at least I can maybe influence it in such a way that the most egregious harms can be avoided for the meantime. um And so often indigenous people do that even when it feels like really yucky to be voting um for somebody that you don't believe in and for a country that you don't really believe in. and Um, I think that, so all of this to say is that I know indigenous people who vote and who don't, um, and I don't pass judgment on them either way because of, I think the way that, um, you know, they're like, I, I have my own elections and my own leadership and my own nation I'm trying to build here. And I don't have time for yours, Canada. and that' Yeah, no, fair enough. That's, right that's that's a really good day. Yeah. I wanted people to hear that again. Um, so one, one thing I have been learning about, about this, this humanist community as, ah as I learn more and more and meet more and more people, uh, is, is this, uh, this warmth that exists and it's really hard to, uh, to bring an opinion to the table that is like, that is not looked at pragmatically. And like, you're never, it's really hard to get that this room to flip a table and storm out and go, I will never speak to you again.
00:37:43
Speaker
Like, even if you come if you come in with something really controversial, they'll go, okay, tell me tell me why you feel that way and how you arrived there. I'm going somewhere with this. So, I've i've seen you do so many interviews and, ah you know, in person and online and you, like I said, we started this this conversation with me saying you have you have a way, you have you have this very rare skill where you're disarming and you get your points through these these these fortified walls. And I think if you're like five degrees hotter or colder, I think sometimes you might miss it. Like you found the secret sauce.
00:38:19
Speaker
but what I wanna give you permission to do are is in this very safe room with this very forgiving audience that has a real hard time judging or they're pretty much open to anything. Is there an unpopular position that you're too afraid to do on TV Ontario or the social or or or CNN or BBC or the many different outlets you've been on? Is there something that you like, you know you're right about this But it's just, it's like, it's like, um it's like ah back to the future. You know, that theyre you're not ready for this, but your parents are going to love it. You know, is there something, is there something that you, that is unpopular that you want to share or is this not the place for it? I'm just, I'm just giving, I'm just giving you a safe space.
00:39:02
Speaker
No, no, no, sure. And I appreciate, because I'm thinking, I'm truly like, yeah, I know that there is. Like, I have been in situations where I'm speaking and there's something I really want to say and then I don't. You're like, you no, they're not ready for this one. This one's. yeah i've I've been there too. You know, you feel yourself losing the room. Trust me, I've been there. Like, have you guys ever noticed? No, that's just, I'll show myself out, you know, like.
00:39:29
Speaker
I mean, I'm just like, ah a couple of things. One that comes to mind first, I guess, is that i there there's this quote that I always um ah get stuck in my head and it's about, and it's hard for me as a political scientist, like a lot of the stuff that they have me do is around politics and elections and like the existing settler governments. um And like a part of me the whole time, while i can I'm critical of it always is that it like,
00:39:58
Speaker
I ultimately am just like kind of want to throw my hands up at it the whole time and be like this stuff is such bs and like never don't ask me for example if I think Kamala or Donald Trump is going to like uh help native people I fundamentally don't believe either of them are because I don't believe the system is is built in such a way to um and like I say this and I feel like um people would accuse, I get nervous that people would accuse me of being ah maybe just like an anarchist and like somebody who like um you know doesn't, ah then be like, then why do you why do you bother talking about this or thinking about all of this sort of stuff? um And i I just, I think that
00:40:45
Speaker
I think that like there's ah a strategy strategy in me that like is like, I ultimately at all times, I think I'm trying to be a realist where I'm like, or a pragmatist where I'm like, I can intellectually not ah think that this whole thing's BS, but I also like that i'm the point I made maybe around voting is that I also realized the reality versus my ideal world aren't aligned. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:41:11
Speaker
And so like, I, that's where I just, yeah, I get in all these sticky moments. So like, I'm trying to think about one where I've talked about land back, for example, a bunch of times where then like, I'm like, it doesn't mean we're taking you from their cottage and indigenous people went online and they were like, but what if we did? And like, maybe we should, but we could be allowed to do that too. And I was like, they're not ready to have the conversation about public, turning private property public and making all these things.
00:41:38
Speaker
Like, yeah, there's just, um, there's a lot of different stuff there and it's taken me a lot of time to realize that like what I have to at least not be able to do is try to appeal, like spend my whole time appealing to what I think is like a white sensitivity. I've spent a lot of my ti teens very afraid of like a white rage.
00:42:00
Speaker
um And I did a Ted Talk and I can't watch it because like the whole time, I know I'm not even just like saying everything with my chest. I'm like trying to hold the hand of what I think is the white listener and bring them through to a place where they can't possibly get mad at me or critique me. and It reminds me of a quote where they were like, you never you never end oppression by appealing to the morality of your oppressor. um That, um you know, it's, you never dismantle the master's house by building the master's tools. um That's Audre Lorde. And then um I even think about like Martin Luther King Jr. who said, you know, I had spent my entire life, yes, right? so Oh my God, I didn't even notice. Wow.
00:42:49
Speaker
It was like after like the height of the civil rights movement when he he was reflecting back and he said, I worry that I spent my whole life fighting to get my people into this house only um to realize that I was inviting them into a burning building. um And like, just like there's so many instances I think of, yeah, it's easy to get caught up in trying to appeal to like the powers that be that just don't ultimately serve you. And how do you do that but also not limit your space and access to use the tools but you have like those spaces. Yeah, that's a bit, it's like a bunch of things all over the place, but- Look, ah it's a big question. I dropped on you. I dropped a bunch on you. And yeah and you're just, you're you're handling it brilliantly as you always do. Okay, well, in that case, I was gonna close on that, but you've you've made me think of something else.
Reevaluating Activism and Its Challenges
00:43:34
Speaker
So I'll give you an example of when when I was in the thick of doing my um LGBTQ activism, after a keynote I was doing, I had this very well-dressed, very pointed, poignant gay man come up to me and say,
00:43:46
Speaker
Have you ever considered it's it's to the Martin Luther King quote says if you've even considered that all the work you're doing to try and get marriage equality passed Maybe we don't even want it. Have you even considered that? Like all you're trying to do is take all the queer couples and you're trying to put them in your neatly arranged heterosexual little piles. And he blew the socks off me. I was just like, whoa, boo. It was like Neo and Morpheus. I just went, I had not thought of that. And I went on this i went on this deep dive, almost a crisis. I had been spending like five years, every waking moment,
00:44:18
Speaker
I was doing this work and I went, Oh, no. And then I went to the, I went to the LGBT community. and I was like, can you just check my math for me? Like, am I, is this not what I should be doing? Have I been doing this all wrong? And there was, there was in fact, a small portion that was like, we don't believe in marriage at all. Like we don't want, we don't even want straight marriage. but you know yeah Like we're, we're actually anti straight marriage too, so we're fine. But the majority at least wanted the option. It wasn't like we were passing marriage equality to make it mandatory. like It was just something you can engage in. But what it did was it sent me on my heels and it just gave me pause to go, whoa, maybe I'm wrong. So the question I want to but bounce to you is, has there been a time when you've been caught and somebody has called you out and go, hey, this is a little off and you've had to sort of rejig and maybe rethink?
00:45:08
Speaker
Yeah, a couple of things, I think. um One that is like a more personal one and that has like transformed me for the better. Not that I was doing this in anything, I think necessarily problematic at the time, but it was just that and like when I first came out in my twenties, I was with my ah long first long-term partner who is now my wife and I was like, ah not publicly taking gigs or talking about Two-Spirit and LGBTQ issues the same way that I was talking about Indigenous issues and they kind of helped me like why. um And I had this moment ah where like I was the for for the first time very honest with myself and with them and I was just like
00:45:57
Speaker
I already feel like it is such an uphill battle so much of the time to be an indigenous person. that I feel if I ah loudly proclaim myself as gay as well, then I'm adding a layer to this and introducing myself into like more discrimination. And I just don't know that I can hack it. And like that was and so I was doing this to protect myself.
00:46:19
Speaker
And my partner was like, I don't think you're giving your yourself enough credit. I think you can hack it. And um i was I eventually you know did lean into both of these parts of my identity. And what I thought would be um something that would introduce a lot more problems to my life is actually the thing that like in enriched my life in so many ways that I couldn't even have imagined at the time. And like I think it actually made me a much better Indigenous activist. I got to get in touch also with the parts of Indigenous tradition that are deeply queer and are deeply ah not heteronormative in any way. And i I was able to connect with this whole new element of my Indigeneity that I didn't even think about at the time.
00:47:06
Speaker
So I had really siloed them as well in that way. And so that was like um a huge one. And then also my my lately, my thing has been about land back. And like, I was so caught up, I think for a long time in the righteous fight to get land back that um one time in a panel, one of my co-panelists said, you know, like I think land back is important and like it's galvanizing and it's all those things, but like what happens if we get the land back tomorrow? There are still patriarchy in our communities.
00:47:35
Speaker
I'm not, there's still all these things like I'm not convinced that we are equipped as people in all ways to be able to rehab at the land in the best way possible. And it like, it made me realize that yeah, I got so caught up in the fight right now that I forgot to think about the day after.
00:47:53
Speaker
um And to reckon with like what I often think is a really scary conversation to have about the work that needs to be done internally, Indigenous communities. And I don't talk about it very often because I get worried that it's like a way to ah give leverage to racists who already want to find every single way to not ah like give Indigenous people any power or access or privilege.
00:48:16
Speaker
um and But that's also the stuff that makes like the conversations in the community not happen and she really just pointed out the ways that like, um I wasn't fully serving um my cause and my people and all of these things in the way that I had wanted to be and so um she did it very diplomatically as well and it was a ah really like, who sent me on like a year long quest to do something.
00:48:41
Speaker
um But there are those reckoning moments as much as they're scary at the time. um i i They're like the most transformative moments in my learning. And like, so yeah, when you said that I was like, I love that you like leaned back into it and we're just like, okay, like, let me think about this now. Oh dear. Oh dear. Yeah. Yikes. I made so many t-shirts. Yikers. Like, oh no, I sent so many letters. Guys, I have been hassling senators. This is bad. It's like huddling everybody. We need to talk about this. Like it really, and and I really do think, and I've said this many times, it's like every once in a while you need to have, you need to have your boat rocked.
00:49:25
Speaker
you know and and And that's saucier than it sounds. But my point is, you need you need to have people question you. And like even because and again, I talk about this um in a project I'm working on called Parties Over, where I talk about how like everything is gray. It doesn't matter how black and white you feel about something. There's gray in there somewhere. Even if it's 0.7%, that 0.7% is exactly what that person is clinging their argument to and discrediting your entire position. So until you find that 0.7% and go, yeah, OK, I see it. It's there. I get it. however Most of us want to get married. So yeah just because these 12 guys don't doesn't mean that that we should stop the whole machine. You know what I mean? So yeah, you get but you're on my side. And and yeah, i like I like that you found the courage to be both queer and Anishinaabe at the same time. ah like like Like Kamala Harris being two races at the same time. It seems inexplicable, doesn't it?
00:50:15
Speaker
it Good for her. Get it girl, I get it. but I am not to toot my own horn, but I am also redheaded and short simultaneously. So I've got my own uphill battle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but oppression, privilege there. I know, right? Okay, so I just want you to know you are talking to the exact right demographic. With Humanist Canada, you're talking to the exact people who are who have a passion for this. And, ah you know, they have a drive and an interest to to fulfill themselves while fulfilling others. So what I want to ask you in closing is how can we be the wind at your back? Tell us how to be ah good all good allies and what are you working on? What's your top priority and how can we support it?
00:50:57
Speaker
um That's lovely. um ah So the things that I look for, especially maybe in this moment coming up to a potential election in Canada or the US, is to listen to Indigenous people around you in terms of like what are their specific election issues and make them your election issues. For a vast majority of people, ah no matter what party is in power, um enough I shouldn't say the vast majority, but for a lot of people, um whether it's the conservatives or the liberals, certain things happen, but your overall quality of life doesn't actually change that much. If you're a middle-class person living in like a North American country, no matter who's in power, you're going to be pretty okay.
00:51:42
Speaker
uh but like indigenous people living on reserve living in these precarious situations are not and so um making sure that whatever they're saying is like the thing that you need to be voting on is the thing that you're actually voting on um and holding uh like your leaders accountable in a way that if they're actually your leaders way more again than they are somebody like mine or a lot of indigenous peoples and so like working with the institutions that were built for you in order to serve others is that like race trader thing I was talking about earlier. Yes um and by the way race trader season four gets really good streaming at Hulu right now.
00:52:20
Speaker
Not a sponsor, just a guest. No, I love it. And then finally, I guess what I'm working on right now, I'm um i'm teaching Indigenous Governance at um U of T. And one of the things I've really noticed is is like when I took this class only seven new year years ago, there was only 50 students in the class and there's 400 there now. um So it's just really exploded and um i my whole work and my teaching is around Indigenous ah young people and young people generally as political movers and shakers and ah you know not the the the future of tomorrow but like of the present and so
00:53:01
Speaker
I don't know. I think if you're, and I would say if you're not finding a young person in your life and letting them mentor you, not you mentoring them, but letting them truly mentor you. um Yes. You're screwing yourself and everyone else a disservice. And so you're like, find your young mentors might be. i Yes. That's, I feel, is that is that what's happened? I'm 47. Is this what's happening here? I'm doing, I am doing my best to get caught up in my best to be versed and you school me all the time.
00:53:30
Speaker
but Like you come into the social and you just come in and it's like, man, I thought I knew what I was talking about. Not even, I'm nowhere near. Like I'm just reminded, and it's a good thing. It's a good thing. You remind me that I gotta do better and I gotta do more. So i i I have tremendous respect for that and I thank you for it. ah You're half my age and I'm constantly learning from you. And ah I'll dovetail it by saying, I don't know if you know who Greg Proops is. He's a 60 something comic. He used to be on Whose Line is Anyway. He's a comedian that I admire. And he has said something similar to what you just said.
00:53:58
Speaker
which is before he votes, he speaks to, ah and he says it kind of tongue in cheek, but he's serious. He says, I talk to black lesbians and Native American women. He's like, that's that's who I talk to. Who are they voting for? What are they caring about? What what um ah propositions are they cared about? I make their issue my issue. And so you just, you, Riley Esno and Greg Proops, funny enough, have the same political approach. How about that? Who'd have thought? So i look i will I'm probably gonna see you next week. So I'm looking forward to that. um Thank you so very much for this. I know you're pulled in many different directions. And as you said off the top, you know, your time is valuable. And I thank you ah very much for giving us some of your time and thank you for schooling us again. And and yeah, you got you got some humanists on your side now. So I may guetch to you, Riley, as no, you're a you're a damn delight.
00:54:51
Speaker
but Thank you. Yes. And Thursday, I think I'll see you. So ah we'll catch up then. Yep. See you then. Thanks. And this is the part where they cut it and edit it. and Yeah. And then they put the exit.
00:55:07
Speaker
Thank you for listening to The Voice of Canadian Humanism. We would like to especially thank our members and donors who make our work possible. If you feel that this is the type of programming that belongs in the public conversation, please visit us at HumanistCanada.ca and become a member and or donate. You can also like and subscribe to us on social media at Humanist Canada. We'll see you next time.