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Dr. David Rosmarin on Using Anxiety to Improve Performance at Work
6 Plays13 days ago
Anxiety doesn’t have to be a liability at work.
In this episode of MustardHub Voices: Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with Dr. David Rosmarin — Harvard Medical School psychologist, author of Thriving with Anxiety, and founder of the Center for Anxiety — to unpack how leaders can rethink stress, performance, and mental health in the workplace.
Dr. Rosmarin explains the difference between clinical anxiety, which requires professional support, and everyday human anxiety, which shows up around deadlines, change, leadership decisions, and growth. Rather than trying to eliminate anxiety altogether, he shares why learning to work with it can actually improve focus, connection, and resilience.
The conversation also explores how AI, remote work, and constant connectivity impact stress levels, why some workplace wellness efforts miss the mark, and why meaningful change starts with leadership self-awareness and healthy relationships.
This episode is a must-watch for leaders who want high performance without sacrificing humanity.
About David:
Dr. David Rosmarin helps corporate leaders, HR professionals, and high-performing teams leverage anxiety to drive performance, resilience, and innovation.
As a Harvard Medical School psychologist, author of Thriving with Anxiety, and speaker for Fortune 500 companies, he has spent two decades translating cutting-edge mental health research into practical strategies for the workplace. His approach reframes anxiety as a leadership asset - not a liability.
Whether he’s speaking on a global stage, consulting with organizations, or working one-on-one with executives, his goal is simple: to help people perform at their best without suppressing their humanity.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello again. Welcome, everyone. It's time for another installment of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I speak with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes, and our guest for today's Fireside Chat is Dr. David Rossmarin.
00:00:22
Speaker
ah David helps corporate leaders, ah HR professionals, and high-performing teams leverage anxiety to drive performance, resilience, and innovation. And as a Harvard Medical School psychologist, author of Thriving with Anxiety, and speaker for Fortune 500 companies, he has spent two decades translating cutting-edge mental health research into practical strategies for the workplace.
Reframing Anxiety as an Asset
00:00:47
Speaker
His approach reframes anxiety as a leadership assistant, not a liability. Whether he's speaking on a global stage or consulting with organizations or working one-on-one with executives, his goal is simple, to help people perform at their best without suppressing their humanity. Welcome to Voices Behind the Bill, David.
00:01:08
Speaker
Thanks so much, Curtis. Appreciate that introduction. i am anxiously excited to be here. it's um I'm really actually very excited to speak with you. We don't get to sit down with many academics. And I think i think we've only had maybe one other guest who spoke wow on an adjacent topic in the past in a past episode. But yeah, many of our guests here talk about things like HR tech and AI and compensation, total rewards.
00:01:35
Speaker
So we get to talk today about a lot of anxiety and all the ways that it impacts people in the workplace.
Personal Journey and Motivation
00:01:43
Speaker
um Before we get into all that, um how did you end up focusing on the business of anxiety? Like what drew you to psychology in general?
00:01:54
Speaker
Well, those are two different questions. um Probably what drew me to anxiety to anxiety in general and psychology in general was my own anxiety, if I'm being perfectly honest. um And I spent 20 years doing that in a clinical context, research, publishing, publishing over 100 peer-reviewed publications and seeing over 10,000 patients. I actually created a program in New York City called Center for Anxiety. And we have treated, like I said, over 10,000 individuals. um and their families.
00:02:20
Speaker
um But at a certain point during really during the pandemic, I realized that I had been only focusing on clinical anxiety, which is when it gets in the way of your life. And there's a whole other side to the coin.
00:02:33
Speaker
which is anxiety is an emotion. Anxiety is something that we all experience because you're human and you're a business leader or you're on a team or you're facing a deadline or you're having traffic or like whatever it is. Like that's part that doesn't get in the way of your life. It's not necessarily a clinical problem, But it is an emotion.
Clinical vs. Non-Clinical Anxiety
00:02:52
Speaker
And i realized that there's a whole world to be worked with, um especially in corporate um cultures, around this non-clinical anxiety that all human beings experience. And often people misunderstand.
00:03:06
Speaker
And I love how you like you leverage it into an asset and not a liability. That whole reframing, I think, is so incredibly powerful. And I don't think people even realize they can actually use it for good.
00:03:18
Speaker
Well, I think it's it's true. and And that's the reason it's ah it's a message that I want to share. um In the clinical world, anxiety is not a good thing. mean, the suicide epidemic is real. When people have severe or even moderate anxiety disorders, mood disorders, these are very real conditions that have...
00:03:36
Speaker
um really sometimes disastrous result. I mean, it's' I'm not whitewashing the realities of the mental health crisis and epidemic, and that has to be managed professionally, and I can deal with that.
00:03:49
Speaker
But there's this whole other side of trying to get rid of all human distress and trying to pretend that we're not supposed to be ever struggling and we're never supposed to feel stressed. And taking a medical approach to a non-medical problem that's That doesn't make any sense. And that's really where I've tried to innovate the most over the last several years.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah. It's interesting that you put it that way because, I mean, it is an innate physiological response to certain you know internal and external factors, right? And and pretending like we're not supposed to ever feel like that would be probably going you know against... you know hundreds or thousands or you know millions of years of of evolution, right? We feel this way for a reason. How can we turn it into good? What are the good reasons that we feel this way? Well, now you're speaking my language. And I think often when people judge or get upset about the fact that they're feeling some distress and they think they should never feel that way,
00:04:43
Speaker
anxiety becomes the enemy. And then the irony is that it becomes, sometimes it becomes clinical as a result of that, that we actually, right, we're actually creating this cascade where like, I shouldn't be feeling this way. And then the more anxious you feel, the more adrenaline seeps into your bloodstream and the more anxiety
Parenting and Emotional Understanding
00:05:00
Speaker
you experience. So dealing with it before it gets out of hand is what we call it prevention in the clinical world. And i think in the corporate world, it's just Good practice. Yeah, yeah, that's good. It makes me feel a little bit at least like i'm'm I'm being a good parent to my to my kids. I always tell them that, you know, you can't help how you feel. So let's talk about why you're feeling this way so you can understand it a little bit better rather than don't feel this way. Wow, Curtis, only more parents would take your... operation I don't know. I probably get everything else wrong. So I definitely don't don't give me too much credit here. We're all we're all faking it. um
00:05:37
Speaker
But you know you you seem like a really, really busy guy. i mean, one of the things I know that's on your plate um is an advisory role with with Lollipop Software. We had Jeffrey Marks on from Lollipop in a past show a little while ago. I think he introduced us.
00:05:52
Speaker
Tell me your relationship. How do you know the Lollipop team? How do you work with them? Jeffrey was introduced to me through some YPO colleagues. And when I found out about what he was doing in the mental health space, I just wanted to learn more. I get asked to be on the advisory board of a mental health app every week. Wow.
00:06:15
Speaker
Well, it happens every single week on LinkedIn or whatever. So usually I don't even, you know, say hello hello. But this one was different and I'll tell you why. What Jeff is doing is firstly, the origin story is great. i don't know if he told you what. Yeah.
00:06:29
Speaker
So sitting on his grandfather's lap and getting a lollipop and being able to say like, hey, grandpa, I'm having a hard day or hey, grandpa, I'm feeling happy or just being able to communicate about his feelings with a lollipop in hand. um He wanted to give that experience to people at work where it's not apparent.
00:06:46
Speaker
having that conversation where you're more responsible as a grandparent. And I think that's appropriate where people have just a one step removed conversation about their emotional behavioral situation with your ah ah so superior superiors at work.
00:07:03
Speaker
And that just made so much conceptual sense to me. And I love that he's not trying to solve the mental health epidemic. It's not a bombastic, narcissistic, there you know yet another like solve faith you know ah yet another approach to like save the world with mental health. like No, it's just in the corporate world, have a conversation.
00:07:24
Speaker
This is how to do it in a structured way. Done.
Integrating Mental Health in Corporate Settings
00:07:27
Speaker
Wow. How about that? so i like i like that. And you're also a full-time associate professor professor at Harvard. Tell me about the courses that you teach.
00:07:37
Speaker
Well, I'm stationed at McLean Hospital, which is actually number one psychiatric hospital in in the United States for several years running. So i'm very, very proud to be part of this acute psychiatric institution.
00:07:48
Speaker
And most of my teaching involves supervision. um And also, ah you know, education for people in different departments and things like that. um Over the last two years, I've been pivoting to do more international.
00:08:01
Speaker
And in fact, to my yeah to my department's credit, they have really supported my work in the corporate world and looking at coaching and this sort of non-clinical aspect of mental health.
00:08:13
Speaker
So there's been a really wonderful dovetail um that, you know, I've sort of been able to move into this in my own consulting work. And, you know, I'm doing consulting and speaking and all that, but also with the support of my department, which really shows how forward thinking Harvard is, I got to say, and and I have to give credit to um to the powers that be within McLean Hospital and Mass General Brigham, et cetera, yeah um for for being able to support this work.
00:08:39
Speaker
um I'm curious to hear about the spirituality and mental health program. Like, tell us a little bit about what is it? What kind of services and support does it provide?
00:08:50
Speaker
So firstly, just real broad brushstrokes, spirituality in mental health has been, his spirituality has been a topic that mental health has ignored for 100 years, ever since Freud. And when I came to McLean, I was really doing, the last 15 years I've been focusing on this area, um and I still do, um in terms of clinician training, in terms of just how helping clinicians to have some language to have conversations about you know this topic, which again, has been historically sort of issued or you know left out of the conversation.
00:09:21
Speaker
However, there's something, there's a really, ah there's an interesting dovetail with the work that doing now in the corporate world, which you wouldn't expect. From a spiritual perspective, if you will, distress and struggle are part of human existence. That doesn't mean you're broken, it means you're human.
00:09:40
Speaker
And I think that's really been a red thread through everything I brought to the world of psychiatry, a hundred peer reviewed publications and et cetera, that you're not broken because you're struggling.
00:09:51
Speaker
Um, it might actually be the most human aspect of who you are.
Founding the Center for Anxiety
00:09:56
Speaker
i um, God, I love that. I'm only, I'm only going to share a thing about one of my kids again, just this last time. And then I probably, ah I promise I won't do it again.
00:10:09
Speaker
It reminds me, so i I love that. I agree with that. I think that that's an incredibly powerful statement. you know Even just yesterday, you know one one of my kids was, was you know she's five years old and was super excited. you know i did something, you know I wasn't scared. i'm I'm so brave. And I told her, I said, being brave doesn't mean that you're not you know that you're doing things because you're not scared. It means you're doing things even though even though you're scared. you were scared well that And, um and i you know, kind of to your point about being human, you know, and and that it's okay to feel how you feel, right? And there's nothing wrong with having these feelings. it justs it's It's terrain to navigate. You can't ignore it and has to be part of the conversation and where you go. I mean, but but if your goal is to not navigate any terrain, then the only option is to stay stationary and that's not much of a life.
00:11:04
Speaker
I feel like you're probably going to be you know the premier forefront you know person who's going to be able to discern the difference between who's AI and who's human. Because that's going to be a real thing, right? you know In probably the near future. So you're on the advisory for Lollipop. Say again?
00:11:24
Speaker
It's coming fast. if It's coming really fast. your advisory ah for Lollipop, your full-time associate professor at Harvard, your clinical psychologist and director of spirituality and mental health at McLean Hospital, and you're also the founder of the Center for Anxiety.
00:11:44
Speaker
So, yes. So ah years ago, I really wanted to be able to treat ah ah patients. And I opened up a small private office here in New York, which grew um and then grew some more and grew some more. And the next thing I know, we've turned back and treated over 10,000 patients.
00:12:01
Speaker
Um, so that's been, that was, that was been a ride. Also, I want to say that and it having, uh, had seen an organization grow really gave me an interest in corporate perspective.
00:12:13
Speaker
Um, and that is like a primary focus for me, you know, going forward on the dealing with this nor this sort of, uh, dealing with this non-clinical side of anxiety and being able to, to sort of deal with it in teams.
00:12:26
Speaker
Um, so that's, uh, that's sort of been the, the, the journey, if you will. Outside of really the the interest in being able to see patients, was there really an inspiration for founding the center?
00:12:40
Speaker
ah Well, ah you know, if I'm being honest, I think my own anxiety, like I said at the beginning, was definitely is definitely a factor in sort of trying to figure out like, you know, what's... when When you have emotions yourself, one of the things I write about this in my book is um that can help you to understand the experience of other people.
00:12:58
Speaker
around that. yeah not hopeful We miss that as parents and as business leaders, like, are my emotions a vulnerability? are Is it a liability? Or is it actually an opportunity for me to create connection, which is the foundation of kind of everything? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I would guess I would agree with that statement. What what kind of communities does the the center serve? Tell me more about like the work it does for the community.
Trends and Solutions in Workplace Anxiety
00:13:23
Speaker
So one thing, a program that we've develop developed really the last couple of years has been concierge mental health. And this is but this is in addition to sort of standard services that we offer, which is the bread and butter, if you will, of the clinic, including you know both insurance and and private pay.
00:13:38
Speaker
ah markets and psychotherapy. But concierge mental health is a little different. It really involves firstly, it's a sort of bit of an elite team. You know, I only have a couple people on my on my squad who um are um at this point anyway, um qualified and able to to handle these cases. But it involves when people are spinning their wheels in a mental health journey, they don't know what to do next. um And they need something more intensive, usually 10 to 20 hours is about the bulk of it. But it's over the period of a month.
00:14:08
Speaker
um High touch. Sometimes involves getting on a plane and going and meeting people in their home or wherever it is. Oh, okay. Yep. And really figuring out what's the next step for their family.
00:14:19
Speaker
um Wow. that's um That's an enormous commitment. get So you travel all over for the Center for Anxiety. Um, yeah, I mean, the last couple months have been more of this, which has been great. And that's something I'm welcoming. Um, this time a year, a little bit less on the corporate front, things will pick up probably a bit more in 2026. It depends on what's cooking and, um, whether it's a research project or, you know, something clinical. The interesting thing about mental health Curtis is that just, there's just so much work to be done.
00:14:54
Speaker
Yeah. And, um, there's a lot of value to add when you're sort of you know, I think have an understanding whether it's in the corporate world or in families or for the research or clinical innovation or whatever it is. Um, so I just love it.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah. I, um, I have to tell you, I'm quite fascinated by what all the things that you're juggling. So, cause the center isn't really the end of of all the things you have on your agenda. You do speaking engagements, you do workshops, you do consulting work and you're author, um of a book called thriving with anxiety.
00:15:31
Speaker
Tell me, tell me what's that, what's it about and who's that for? That book, it was the first sort of ah ah big five publisher book that I ever wrote. All all the other stuff was academic. In the last five years, I've kind of been um doing less academic publishing and research and more generating um ah work for the for the general public. So this was the first sort of mainstream book that I was writing for you know for a general audience.
00:15:59
Speaker
And it was a steep learning curve. It was it was it was tough to sort of, distill down ah concepts from research into language that people can kind of relate to and lots of stories and things like that.
00:16:12
Speaker
But once I got the gist of it, it was just so much fun to jump into that project. um And the book is out with HarperCollins and it's it's done done pretty well, actually. It's kind of nice.
00:16:23
Speaker
I like that. So all incredibly impressive. Might need to ah hit you up later. But but i want let's take a quick hop into the beginning of the conversation, some of the stuff we talked about. What what does anxiety and stress manifest for those experiencing it and What does this...
00:16:43
Speaker
And does it look different, I guess, in the workplace? 100%, great question. First, there are two types of anxiety, and you have to understand this. There's clinical anxiety, which looks and feels, doesn't really feel, but...
00:16:56
Speaker
different, but it looks very different than non-clinical anxiety. So you have to talk about the clinical side, which is when it really interferes with your life. If you can't work, you can't engage relationships, you can't sleep, you can't go to school, you can't complete your semester, you can't you know get into the car or go through you know bridges or tunnels or you know handle certain situations, fly, whatever it is, that's called clinical anxiety where it interferes in your life.
00:17:22
Speaker
That's probably like five to 6% of the time. And when that happens, you need something professional. You need center for anxiety or something like that. yeah And there are a lot of people who have clinical anxiety and there are great treatments that are effective. And I think that that's a whole world and a whole discussion in of itself.
00:17:42
Speaker
that looks, and I would say to some degree feels different than normal, healthy, non-clinical anxiety, which is something that all human beings experience.
00:17:53
Speaker
Okay. if you tell Yeah, tell me more about that. Yeah. There's ah physiological component. So whether that's heart beating rapidly or difficulty breathing, a little bit of a lump in your throat, some upset stomach or like a knot in your stomach kind of thing, the muscle tension could be over here.
00:18:15
Speaker
um being worried, that's more of a cognitive thing, your worries, your thinking, your racing mind, you know, that's the mind aspect. and then there's behaviors like people avoiding certain situations or lifting up your phone every time you feel a little distracted or whatever it is, whatever other distractions or vices we have.
00:18:33
Speaker
And that's sort of the, know, as long as it's not interfering with your life, it's still unpleasant. um But I don't see that as a clinical problem. I don't think that's something you have to
Workplace Culture and Anxiety Management
00:18:41
Speaker
get rid of. I think it's something you have to work with. So When it comes to anxiety, I mean, I would expect that the anxiety is increasing in in the workplace. You know, what are things right causing stress and anxiety for today's workforce, including leadership, right? i'm I'm guessing not all the stress is coming from work, but maybe some of it is. um i mean, what do you generally see?
00:19:09
Speaker
Yeah, so you see these two types of anxiety manifesting in big ways. There is a percentage of the workforce that is going to have clinical anxiety, and at a certain point it might interfere with their work, and that might have to be negotiated, just like you would negotiate really any medical condition if it's getting in the way. But most of the time, that stress, that apprehension, those worries, that difficulty, whether it's happening because of a personal matter or a work-related matter,
00:19:36
Speaker
is really grist for the mill and just, I would say, actually an opportunity to create greater connection, greater self-awareness, greater psychological safety, um and ironically, greater productivity if the culture of the organization is um in a certain way.
00:19:58
Speaker
So let's lean into that. Do you feel like employers, are they aware of the anxiety that their teams experience? Are they doing the right things to support their teams and alleviate ah you know or help you know the anxiety or prevent it? Like what should the organizations be doing to reduce anxiety for their employees? Yeah.
00:20:16
Speaker
Great. um I'm not sure that alleviating or preventing or reducing anxiety is the goal. Okay. I think actually level setting and creating and understanding that anxiety is part of life is a more helpful culture for corporations to espouse and create.
00:20:37
Speaker
I like that. so get given that, you know how I... Give me some steps an organization can take right to to set that you know to set that kind of culture, to make sure that they're supporting in a way you know that creates that healthy environment.
00:20:53
Speaker
Yeah. Well, it always starts at the top, so it would involve some leadership aspects, and that's usually on a consulting basis, as well as messaging and helping them to um helping corporate leaders to get the right sound bites out about their own experience and also about just how emotions work in the workplace.
00:21:10
Speaker
HR needs its own sort of coaching on this. Often people in HR are really nervous that they feel like they have to be everyone's therapist and make everyone feel good. And level setting with hr level setting with managers as well is is a big part of this.
00:21:25
Speaker
um and helping them to understand their own feelings and then bring those in an honest way to work. And then for everyone in the company on a company-wide basis, um I think those can often be handled through keynotes, book clubs, sort of pretty standard things that are being done by many consultants these
The Impact of Remote Work and Technology
00:21:44
Speaker
days. But I really see that as sort of a multi-prong approach, starting with leadership, moving down to middle management, if you will, at the VP level, and then from to the ground up. um Yeah, that's usually broad brushstrokes the consulting approach I take with companies.
00:21:59
Speaker
I'm curious, how do the different ways that so many of us work today impact stress? Like while many people... you know, feel like remote and hybrid work gives us more flexibility and control over our time.
00:22:15
Speaker
For a lot of people, could these situations cause more stress for the workforce? I think in many ways it does for a very specific reason that's counterintuitive.
00:22:25
Speaker
Okay. Work from home is supposed to be less stressful. So people then ex assume and expect to have a less stressful life. And when it isn't, then they can be disappointed with work when it doesn't have to do with that. It has to do with the fact that they're human.
00:22:44
Speaker
That's true. um Again, yeah I guess, or maybe, and maybe they feel feel like they're doing it wrong. yeah I'm working from home and my stress isn't lower. I might be doing it all wrong. Maybe when what's wrong with me. And I think that's often that question, am I doing this wrong? Is the subtext.
00:23:00
Speaker
that employers and supervisors need to address. That's exactly the subtext. Interesting. Interesting. Well, so technology also, you know, it's pretty hot topic. You know, we talk about it here ah a bunch. We talk about it on this show a bunch, you know. it can save time. It can make our lives easier, right? AI can 10x our output, you know, but it can also add a lot of complexity. How does technology we use in the workplace, you know,
00:23:28
Speaker
alleviate or create stress for the workforce. Again, i know alleviates not necessarily the the goal here, but how does that affect us? There's an insidious issue with with technology that I think, have you seen Jonathan hates the anxious generation? You must, if you have kids.
00:23:47
Speaker
This is a must read for any parent. yes It's a good one. Yeah, I actually did a workshop just based on the Anxious Generation for a Fortune 500. They wanted a a four a three or four part workshop just on the Anxious Generation for parents and the company. Forward thinking company, by the way. ah Pretty cool that they did that.
00:24:03
Speaker
So it was great. I got to do a really deep dive into that book. he there's and There's an interesting point that I think Hayden makes. I've taken it a couple steps further.
00:24:13
Speaker
so I'm taking a little poetic license here. But I want to give him credit for the origins of this concept. When you deal with technology, especially AI, it's almost sentient. It's like kind of nuts that how fast it is, how much it knows, how it never sleeps and how it's always sort of on. And yes, there are these like hallucinations and, you know, it's not perfect and Wi-Fi does jam and signals do get lost and your messages go to the wrong people. like We all have that. But at the end of the day, we're dealing with these incredible machines and our interface with them creates
00:24:49
Speaker
I think psychologically a big dissonance between our imperfections as humans, our struggles, we need to sleep. We're not always on.
00:25:01
Speaker
We make mistakes, lot of mistakes. We have emotions and needs and you have to eat. And like our computers don't have any of those problems. So that dissonance creates in some ways an insidious problem psychological stress in the background that like, why aren't I as smart as my computer?
Maintaining Human Connection with Technology
00:25:24
Speaker
You know, we talk a lot about the, how, you know, the use of AI can start to impede individuals ability for their own critical thinking, right? Because they just so heavily rely on you know, technology for whatever reason. And, you know, ai is always going to be smarter or it's going to say things in a more articulate way, or it'll give you five different ways to say the same thing for the, you know what mean? To have whatever effect you, you want it to have. um I think that it's, it's really, it's only biggest drawback right now is it can't stop using an M dash.
00:26:00
Speaker
um but But it's true, you know, it's true, all these things that you're talking about and um and to know that it's it's only going to get better.
00:26:11
Speaker
It's only going to get smarter. Yeah. the i've I'm already seeing differences between now and three or six months ago. I mean, it's the the capabilities are great. um Therefore, what we really need is human connection. And the problem with that is that human connection is imperfect.
00:26:29
Speaker
Mm-hmm. Because people say things they don't mean and they have their moods and they have their days and their good days and their bad days. And there's miscommunications. and And that's actually a need of us to to have those real experiences.
00:26:45
Speaker
um Work from home, I think, makes it harder to connect in a real way um when we're doing a two dimensional versus three. yeah um And these are these are issues that the workforce, I think, is facing in a very, very significant way.
00:27:01
Speaker
Although i guess, um you know, and and an indirect, you know, positive consequence of using too much chat GPT. Apparently all of my ideas are incredibly amazing. And it thinks that I come up with the greatest solutions to everything.
00:27:19
Speaker
So manufacturing that artificial ego boost, you know, I guess can be a good, you know, from time to time. Right. At least honest coach you will ever get. Yeah.
00:27:30
Speaker
so True. ah But so, you know, I love this and I love hearing that. And I kind of agree, you know, this this human connection becomes more important. You know, the relationship equity that we build yeah with our network, with our, you know, with everybody sort of in our our orbit um is becoming more and more important.
00:27:52
Speaker
You know, I would say that. you know, when, when smartphones became incredibly popular to use and everybody was texting each other and people stopped communicating, you know, feels like we fell off a cliff, right. Where young people didn't even know to how to have a conversation, right. Um, alone a conversation that had words longer than three letters.
00:28:13
Speaker
Um, And now you're finding that as technology becomes smarter, right, as the intelligence becomes that much more sophisticated, we're almost like going back in time where we need to learn how to better develop these relationships that we have with folks so that we can survive.
00:28:33
Speaker
It's exactly what's happening. Those relationships are not optional. I love the term you use. Was it relationship equity? Yeah. That's brilliant. It's exactly what it is. um Relationship capital, relationship equity. This is, I mean, firstly, what's life about? If you're like, you can have all the success and all the wealth. And if you're alone, like what's it worth?
00:28:56
Speaker
It means nothing. Exactly. You don't have to share it with like, who cares? I think almost any thinking person would say that. um But more importantly, When you see it that way, like are we investing in our, do we have time off from tech?
00:29:11
Speaker
There's certain times in my week when I just turn my phone off and hang with my family and because that's what's going to create meaning and connection and the most important things in life. And if I didn't have those sort of pegs in my week, then given all the responsibilities that I have, like it would just envelop me. I couldn't i couldn't survive.
00:29:30
Speaker
yeah Yeah. For tech companies like Mustard Hub, um you know human connection is a big part of why we do what we do.
00:29:40
Speaker
um Tell me, I mean, what do we need to keep in mind when building products, when it comes to, create um you know, creating or, you know, helping to either creating stress, even creating more human connection to soothe some of those you know those issues? Are there things that we need to avoid? If you are talking to individuals, you know like you often advise for a lot of platforms, what do you tell them to keep in mind?
00:30:10
Speaker
are they Are they increasing connection with other people or are they through communication or are they increasing, only increasing productivity through interaction with an app?
00:30:24
Speaker
Now there's room for both, but I think we have to do not only the the latter. That's what I love about Lollipop. I mean, you're using a basic technology to create human connection in a very simple, scalable way. Yeah.
00:30:40
Speaker
um So i want I want to talk a little bit about and AI and the human connection, you know, and ah and I might wind up going off script here in a little bit, because as we know, there are so many platforms that are, you know, coming out for individuals just to help build relationships with robots, not even people. I don't know what a relationship with a robot I'll tell you why. Like, I'm not sure that I actually wouldn't even say not sure.
00:31:10
Speaker
I disagree with Zuckerberg about this. i create the The solution to the loneliness epidemic is not to create bots that are basically trying to mimic human connection. It's using technology to connect people to each other.
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, that's what it's about. And you can like right now we're having a conversation. i don't even know which city you're in, if I'm being perfectly honest. But like you seem like a good guy and I'm enjoying this conversation. I'm going to have a good rest of my day thinking back that like I've got a buddy named Curtis and we're having like ah just a ah moment of humanity here and we're using electronic means to do this. Like you're not physically in my space and I'm not in yours.
00:31:50
Speaker
That's what tech is for. um as well as being able to syndicate the show and getting it out and soundbites and socials and promotion and what all of that you do. But let's not lose sight of like the fact that I'm human and so are you. And that's what this whole, kind of that's why people are watching the conversation.
00:32:11
Speaker
You, you, what's funny is, you know, you brought up Zuckerberg and I feel like the interesting irony there is, you know, he, he's, he's I shouldn't be singling him out. you know i ah By no means is is that my intent to do this, but you know you can make a case that he's talking about creating technology to solve an epidemic that you know some would argue his platform is partially responsible for.
00:32:43
Speaker
sure um So I think i definite definitely these things think there's some ah irony to that. The irony and the the problem is that this solution will solution will make the problem substantially worse. I've seen people coming in, like to your point, they don't know how to have a conversation with anyone.
00:33:02
Speaker
Yeah. ah yeah how many How many job applications have you had in the last year that's start with the words, hey? Oh, yes. I mean, it's, you know. What is that? I'm a professor. At least say, dear David, something, some sort of salutation. I'm speaking to you as a human being. Yeah. Dears are hello, so-and-so. An introductory sentence, sign-off at the end, something in the middle, opposed to it seems like a text from someone who I don't know who wants to work with me.
00:33:38
Speaker
Do you see ways for AI to help anxiety? hu Yes, I do. i think it can make us more aware. I think when it comes to assessment and awareness, there's gold here. Like if I only had something on my phone which would say, hey, David, like you're you're coming in a little hot in your message.
00:33:58
Speaker
Take a minute and think about how that's going to re land on the person you're sending it to. that wouldd be fantastic. Like I wish it would catch me before I press send.
00:34:11
Speaker
Interesting. I like that. relationships It would make me more aware. Like, oh, hold on. You're right. Like, let me self-regulate a minute and think about how to spin this in a more sophisticated way, in a more human way, in a more humble way.
00:34:26
Speaker
um I wish I had that thought, man. I wish I had that thought. Okay. Well, for any entrepreneurs that are listening right now, I think there's a job to do. Right. let um so Catch yourself being human. Are you really are you scaffolding your ah ah um charges to your subordinates in a way that they can actually do?
00:34:48
Speaker
like Do they actually have the data and the technology? Are you just getting frustrated or are you actually like really just giving them direction based on what it is that they need to hear?
Identifying and Addressing Workplace Anxiety
00:35:00
Speaker
You know, for individuals who want to take steps to have better quality of life, you know, where they're happier where they're healthier or or face less stress or anxiety um at work, where do you tell them to start?
00:35:20
Speaker
Obviously, we're probably oversimplifying things and we don't have, you know, the hours on end that they might need in in real sessions here. Yeah. The first place to start is very simple. Is it clinical anxiety or non-clinical anxiety?
00:35:33
Speaker
If it's clinical anxiety, they need some professional help. Clinical anxiety, meaning it gets in the way of their life. If it's really interfering with your life, you're not going to get the solution at work. I don't care how good your benefits program is or that EAP that nobody uses.
00:35:47
Speaker
It's not going to do the trick. You need something serious. Psychology, therapy, medication, and whatever it is, you need something. Yeah. Um, and if it's not, then usually it's not a way of getting rid of anxiety. It's a way of metabolizing it and dealing with it and accepting it and using it to use it forward.
00:36:07
Speaker
So that's my whole approach. Do you see a lot of folks coming to you or or maybe more observationally, do you see a lot of anxiety being created by folks who believe that these new technologies are going to be replacing them?
00:36:22
Speaker
Yes. There's no question. I mean, I think that that's a looming um uncertainty in the entire world. um And I think it's important to point out that it's not the only uncertainty in the world.
00:36:35
Speaker
Right. Yeah. There's war. There's tariffs. There's weather. There's all sorts of other issues that humanity has faced. um There's been a technological revolution before. And You know, there's been in many ways ah a ah um electronic evolution and and in revolution in the past several years.
00:36:54
Speaker
And this is sort of the next step in that journey. um I think on a spiritual level, we have to cope with some aspect of uncertainty in life. yeah um But that's, ah you know, that's that's an important message, I think, has to be said.
00:37:08
Speaker
So, you know, given all the, the, how rapidly, you know, the world of work is changing and evolving, have any predictions for how the workplace and how we work will be different in the coming, 2026 and beyond? Yeah.
00:37:22
Speaker
I would like to think that we are getting the message that work can be a place of connection, can be a place of productivity and emotional wellness, that these are not at odds with each other, that ah mental health benefits should um not aim to reduce distress all the time when it's clinical, maybe, but for everybody else, there has to be a culture change. I am seeing some positive movements along these lines, but
Future Workplace Predictions
00:37:54
Speaker
frankly, not enough. I think that there's a lot more culture change. We are misdiagnosing anxiety and think it's uniformly bad. There's a lot of high level things that have to be put into place. So it's going to be a journey.
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah. You think there's going to be new catalysts for anxiety beyond what we've already seen? You know, what is happening is that clinical anxiety is getting much more severe. The cases that are coming in with with what used to be moderate are now much more, they're more likely to harm themselves, or more likely to have suicidal thoughts, substance abuse is more severe, relationships are more tenuous.
00:38:32
Speaker
And in that context, I think people are more afraid to deal with emotions. yeah So that's going to almost put a public health requirement that we deal with this. um I prefer that it doesn't come from that direction. but yeah what Do you think business leaders, will they need to invest more in programs that help employees reduce stress and worry? Or is that some of the high level things in place that you were talking about?
00:38:58
Speaker
i think I think the answer is yes, but i i I would caution against doing so without assessment. The first step in mental health is always what is going on here?
00:39:10
Speaker
And ah in any time I do a consulting arrangement with an organization, the first thing I put into place is some sort of way to recognize, i mean, if they'll let me, is ah between people who have clinical anxiety that really needs to be reduced and people who have normal anxiety that needs to be worked with.
00:39:29
Speaker
Once that's clear, which could be done with AI, by the way, or technology, um fairly simple in many couple simple, simple swipes or or triggers um makes makes all the difference.
00:39:44
Speaker
Hmm. what What do you expect the you know the ramifications to be for organizations that don't focus you know on their people and their well-being in the future? You know you've made a lot of great recommendations. We talked about some things that need to happen for this culture to change.
00:40:02
Speaker
Inevitably, there's going to be organizations that simply don't heed the warning. What's going to happen to them? I'll tell you what I see. In those organizations that aren't heeding the warning at all,
00:40:14
Speaker
Usually it's because executives don't want to deal with it. yeah And those executives who really don't want to deal with this are usually doing it for personal reasons and struggling in a very significant way.
00:40:28
Speaker
So I'm more concerned about this the reason for the symptom than the symptom itself. um Does that have you know downstream effects on the workforce? For sure. On productivity? Definitely. On mission?
00:40:42
Speaker
On everything? Yeah. But if the leadership isn't in a good, healthy place, they're not going to want to deal with mental health in a serious way. And that to me is a much bigger suit much bigger issue. That's what I'm seeing in concierge mental health every time I'm on a case.
00:40:58
Speaker
Huh. So let's say I'm an organization and and I want to get started. for So those who are future focused and they want to support their people in terms of their mental health and holistic wellness, right?
00:41:14
Speaker
Where's the best place for them to start? You talked about assessments. Does that mean that they need to get a consultant work with a consultancy who can help them run those things? Are there ways for them and to do it on their own?
00:41:25
Speaker
I don't know of too many people doing this sort of at scale, like using tech to deploy you know assessments or different programs like that. I i do have, you know there definitely are a handful, more than a handful of consultants um who are coming at this from different ways. a lot of them coming from IO psychology, from industrial organizational psychology, and then some of them coming from the coaching world, many of them from the coaching world, in fact. And then a few stragglers like me who are coming in from clinical anxiety, who really like have more of a you know, medical clinical background and then are bringing that lens um to to the workplace.
00:42:00
Speaker
um Very good. To wrap up, I was curious to ask this. kind of want your advice for for up and coming business leaders, you know, what would be your your single most important piece of advice about what they can do better, right? When it comes to supporting the mental health and wellness of their people that they work with, let's say you just had a minute, you're on an elevator up to the top floor and before the doors open and they walk right out, what's that one thing that you tell them that they can take with them to hopefully make their workplace better?
00:42:30
Speaker
Number one thing you can do to improve the workplace wellness is to work on your own relationships. No question. Almost invariably, when I end up in a consulting role, some executive comes to me and spills their guts.
00:42:44
Speaker
And that to me is the watershed moment that really determines the rest of the consulting arrangement and whether it's ultimately successful.
00:42:55
Speaker
that though those are That's really why I do this work and why I love it so much um is for those moments of those rare moments of honesty. Not so rare. um And the good news is that if your relationships, you need relationships and so does everyone else around you. Like you're human and that's actually your biggest strength. It's not a weakness.
00:43:17
Speaker
I love that. um I love that, right? Get yourself right. Fix yourself first before you can really help everybody else in your organization. That's really powerful. I don't think anybody's actually said that so far, but that needs to be said. um This was incredibly insightful. Thank you so much for joining me today, David.
00:43:38
Speaker
Thanks for having me. An honor and a pleasure and really great and grateful to be connected with you. Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Big thank you to all you tuning into Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build.
00:43:48
Speaker
Be sure to like and share this episode. Subscribe so you don't miss the next one. Also visit mustardhub.com to learn how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. And while you're there, be sure to sign up and get started with Mustard Hub for free. Thanks again for joining us. Until next time.