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Kurt Schmidt on Growth, Trust, and Getting Out of Your Own Way as a Leader
12 Plays25 days ago
Scaling a service business isn’t about leadership, trust, and clarity.
In this episode of MustardHub Voices: Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with Kurt Schmidt, founder of Schmidt Consulting Group, to explore why so many agencies struggle to scale and what actually helps them move forward. Kurt shares his unconventional path from professional BMX rider to agency founder and advisor, and how those early experiences shaped his approach to leadership and resilience.
The conversation dives into why many agencies don’t truly have a lead problem, but a positioning and trust problem, and how misalignment quietly leads to stalled growth and burnout. Kurt explains the risks of scaling without intention, why over-systematizing can erode value, and how leaders often get in their own way by confusing activity with strategy.
They also discuss common sales mistakes, why proposals fail to close, and why leadership growth must start with honest self-reflection.
This episode is a must-watch for agency founders and consultants who want to grow with intention — not ego.
About Kurt:
Kurt Schmidt is the founder of Schmidt Consulting Group, a business advisor, author, and former pro BMX rider with over 20 years of experience helping creative and tech companies grow through better strategy, positioning, and operations.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast and Guest
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome back. This is another installment of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I sit down with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes, and my guest today is Kurt Schmidt.
Kurt Schmidt's Diverse Background
00:00:19
Speaker
Kurt's the founder of Schmidt Consulting Group, a business advisor, author, and former pro BMX writer with over 20 years' experience helping creative and tech companies grow.
00:00:31
Speaker
through better strategy, positioning, and operations. Welcome to Behind the Build. Thank you so much for joining me, Kurt. Thanks for having me, Curtis. I'm really excited to be here. I'm looking forward to this conversation.
00:00:44
Speaker
Not more than me.
From BMX to Business: The Transition
00:00:46
Speaker
um I have to dig into the fun stuff right away and hear a little bit about this history riding. And for those who are watching who are who don't know, Kurt's going to tell us a little bit about the very first X Games.
00:01:05
Speaker
ah Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, i started riding when I started riding BMX when I was very young. I mean, that's how we got around. It's just riding around the neighborhood like crazy people.
00:01:17
Speaker
and ah And I had some friends who had some magazines and they showed people racing and got into BMX racing and started doing that. And that was a lot of fun.
00:01:29
Speaker
And then I realized I wasn't very good racer, but I like jumping. I like the jumping part. That part was really fun. um but then i I found out that that was also a sport unto itself was the jumping and tricks and all that. So um found some local competitions, started doing that.
00:01:50
Speaker
ah From those, found national competitions, started going to those. And then, you know, fast forward, you know, about a decade, I turned pro and rode professionally for a number of years, went to the first,
00:02:04
Speaker
X Games and um it was a terrible experience. and And then not long after that, I retired from competing professionally, started my first company and then off to the races. So, you know so first of all, i think you're underselling yourself just a little bit. you you talk you You talk about the events and you started going to those, but you didn' just go to those, you started winning at those. Yeah. You know, so, so let's, ah you know, let's, let's yeah you know. but um Yeah. I mean, I recognize this. When I turned pro, I was in the top 12 in the world for ah a number of years. So yeah, i was, I was competing at a pretty high level.
00:02:47
Speaker
And before we move on to the other stuff, how many broken bones Not as many as you might think. um Because I'm thinking a lot.
00:02:58
Speaker
No, not as many as you might think. ah You know, um it really, ah you know, I was very lucky early on um in in my career. i was very good at crashing. i was, I knew how to roll, tuck and roll, I guess. And I was able to save myself from a lot of serious injuries.
00:03:21
Speaker
Um, but you know, there was definitely times where I was laid up for a few weeks, um, not being able to move or, or do much. So, yeah, so you know, that's the good thing about being young too, is that you bounce back, you know, pretty quickly.
00:03:37
Speaker
Right. Right. Thinking about it is hurting my back a little bit. And, um, I can imagine now why they don't make even, you know, falling and crashing gracefully a sport because everybody would be doing it then and probably be
Growing Agencies: Strategies and Insights
00:03:53
Speaker
very good at it. So,
00:03:55
Speaker
You spent decades now building and and leading successful service firms, right? Now you're you're helping agencies and service-based businesses grow smarter.
00:04:06
Speaker
um i want to hear a little bit about the origin story. I want to hear where it started with the bike company um where you were that you were part of when you were, what, 19 years old? Yeah. And then, you know, how did you know consulting and an agency growth strategy was really the work you wanted to kind of do? So take me through that trajectory. Yeah.
00:04:24
Speaker
ah Yeah, you know, it's funny. you We started the bike company because we we weren't really happy with the products that were out in the market. And me and a couple other guys started this and grew it to pretty pretty good size. I mean, we were selling products all over the world. And um and I found myself during that journey not so much interested in the um the numbers, ah you know the financial aspect, the pricing, all of that stuff. I was very interested in how we were a positioning the company, what the brand was like, what our marketing was like, um what our t-shirts set on them, um you know how we showed up at events or different things like that. I found myself really drawn to that. And then when I exited that
00:05:14
Speaker
company, i um I found myself you know wondering, like what am i going to what am I going to do? Well, I like this aspect of it. And i I found that there was actually people that would pay you to do that for their companies. And that was that was that was that was thrilling because I thought, okay, well, I won't be i won't be broke Um, so I went to school for, design visual communications and got a job at the United health group, um, you know, healthcare care and, uh, realized very quickly after about a year of there that the corporate life was not for me. Um, uh, I did not enjoy being a cog in the machine and,
00:05:57
Speaker
you know, my, I didn't realize it, but I had this entrepreneur sort of gene, you know, my father had started his own business. My grandfather on my dad's side had started his own businesses as well. And, um,
00:06:11
Speaker
ah you know that idea of doing that on my own was pretty scary. So um I left there, joined a small agency, helped that grow, helped that um you know quadruple in size and then joined another agency. And we went from 50 to 600 people within seven years. And wow um I was a big part of that growth and then left there and started my own agency and did that for a decade. And we doubled in size every year. And Um, and then exited that and realized that, um, I really liked teaching people how to do this kind of work and helping people avoid a lot of the mistakes that I had made because I had made all of them, Curtis. yeah
00:06:56
Speaker
so So that's what I'm doing now. You started an agency, you grew it and, and start now kind of started another But different agency doing yeah doing doing different things. So today you're at the helm of Schmidt Consulting Group. Tell me a little bit about what this business you know does. Tell me who are your, we don't have to name names, but tell me a little bit about your clients.
00:07:19
Speaker
Yeah, most of my clients are um small to mid-size agencies um and they are in the creative space. So marketing, branding, you know um SEO, all those things to the tech space, custom software development, IT. um There's even some recruiting firms and some other B2B service-based businesses that are kind of scattered in there.
00:07:46
Speaker
And I basically do one of two things. I either help them through coaching where I'm working alongside them to help them grow their business sustainably, or I'm actually coming in and taking on some of the initiatives and helping them drive them through to fruition. So, and those engagements look like anywhere from three months to three years in some cases.
00:08:10
Speaker
Like a fractional role, so to speak. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah. Are there certain core problems that you're solving for these agencies?
00:08:20
Speaker
Yeah, I would say, Curtis, about two thirds of them show up saying we we need more customers, we need more clients. that's That's the bottom line. um Is that the problem they have? Usually not. right um
Challenges in Agency Operations
00:08:34
Speaker
And then the rest of them are are looking for more operational help or pricing help. They're looking to move to more value based types pricing or outcome based pricing. And they're looking for better, leaner operations because what usually happens with a lot of service-based businesses as they grow their their revenue grows but their profit decreases and a lot of that is because it's not a sustainable growth that they are uh focused on they are focused on growth for growth's sake and profit is something that they'll worry about later and um
00:09:10
Speaker
and then it shows up pretty hardcore very quickly. Yeah, I'd imagine so. So like a big theme in your work is helping agencies really clarify their positioning and and their value. um Not just you know doing more marketing, but you know kind of fixing their their marketing. so why why is clarity such a foundational driver of growth?
00:09:34
Speaker
i imagine And I imagine that's something you probably have to sit down and explain. Yeah, I would say you know um that since the pandemic, we are in what um a lot of experts have called a trust recession.
00:09:50
Speaker
And what that means, at least to me in the service-based industry, is that um you know before COVID and all that, you used to be able to kind of get away with your Google reviews or your testimonials on your website or a bunch of big logos on your website that showed that you were trustworthy. um And these days, that just doesn't have the sharpness that it used to. And a lot of people are confused on why on why that is. And um it's because, again, like those things, people understand those things can be manipulated, faked, yeah whatever the case may be. people the buy The average consumer is smarter today than they've ever been. and thanks to AI, they're getting even smarter and smarter.
00:10:38
Speaker
And because of that, The agencies need to, and the service providers need to position themselves in stronger trustworthy positions, stronger positions of authority.
00:10:50
Speaker
And that's that's work that sometimes muscles that they are not really used to using. Yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
So when when founders you know or or operators are sort of deep in that day-to-day, right? Delivery, dealing with clients, all those operations.
00:11:08
Speaker
What is the most common reason that they lose that strategic focus? right how How do you help them get it? And yeah, how how do you even help them get it back? Yeah, I mean, part of it is, is ah you know I'll be honest with you, 50% is just getting them out of their own way. out of It really is.
00:11:28
Speaker
um They're very good at what they do. they've They've grown because they are very good at that work. and um But they they are not, to you you called it out really good, k they're not as strategic.
00:11:43
Speaker
as they were. They try to operationalize a lot of things that are not operational or that can't be systematized. Some things just, um and some things can't be measured. Some things that matter just can't be measured too. So those are areas where people get a little,
00:12:04
Speaker
um I would say insecure. And helping them see that you can systematize some of these things in a way to get results and to start seeing the needle move.
00:12:18
Speaker
um You know, 80% agencies are service-based businesses. The majority of their first few years, 80% of them are is referral-based. It's all referrals.
00:12:29
Speaker
And, but as you get bigger, um those referrals start to dry up and their referrals are just in general, like I mentioned in the trust recession, are drying up in general.
00:12:40
Speaker
And people have to shift the way that they are going to market now. And, but again, we built this business on this this one sort of trajectory. Why isn't this working anymore? It must be because we're not doing something Right.
00:12:58
Speaker
And, but it's not always, it's, it's again, the market has shifted the, you know, you need to shift with what people's expectations are. Right.
00:13:10
Speaker
yeah I'm curious, you know, you talked about it getting, as it gets bigger and, you know, is there a threshold or a tipping point or, you know, I'm just kind of curious that as they grow how often do they find themselves really disconnected from the people within their organization? And are there other common like people-related problems that they face?
00:13:37
Speaker
Yeah. Well, they kind of they they they kind of eat themselves in some cases because a a well-run, well-profitable agency, one of the things that they are really good at is repeating what they've done in the past, right? Since most of them bill by the hour, for example, the best thing that they can do is to make each of those hours cost the same amount um and produce the same amount of revenue.
00:14:08
Speaker
And in order to do that, you create a lot of processes, a lot of SLAs, a lot of s SOPs, a lot of um things to make those processes repeatable and valuable, air quotes.
00:14:21
Speaker
yeah And in in doing so, um you kind of lose, what actually helped get you there because most agencies get chosen because of their people. The client meets the team that meets the the people that are gonna work on their projects and fall in love with them and they want them on their team.
00:14:46
Speaker
that's right And, but the more, the larger you get and the more you systematize, now you've got your kind of group that goes out first, presents these things. You see it in big, big companies. Like, I mean, i just think of giant consultancies like McKinsey or PwC or any of these things. When McKinsey first shows up, it is like, it is like sent there out of central casting.
00:15:11
Speaker
It is the most, it is the most well-spoken, attractive, adults you've ever, ever seen that come in and so the managerial level that come in and kind of set up the engagement.
00:15:23
Speaker
And then as soon as the engagement gets started and you signed, they send in the people who just graduated college and they start doing spreadsheets and interviews and things like that. And a lot of people like, Hey, wait a second. Where'd those where'd those movie star looking people go Yep.
00:15:39
Speaker
um And a lot of agencies will do that because again, McKinsey's doing that because that's what makes them the most money. Those people are very expensive. They can't sit there for a year working with Disney.
00:15:51
Speaker
um They need to move on to, um you know, to Dubai and to Tokyo and, and keep those engagements going. And that's,
00:16:02
Speaker
that's what you ultimately will see will happen is is that because of this operation, it starts to separate the people from the value the business does. hello its interesting, too, because this just sort of underscores and highlights how detrimental turnover can be to even organizations like this, because not not only the customers that might leave, but the institutional knowledge as well, that's just going to go right out the door when people, you know, um churn, right? Yes.
00:16:33
Speaker
You talk about diagnosing growth barriers, right? Instead of just teaching, you know, frameworks. What is the difference between having a strategy and a strategy that actually gets implemented and executed? You know, I i want to understand, right? Because there's going to be we can all have a strategy We can all have a strategy to do things, right? Whether or not it actually gets put into place, right? Or, you know, it has those obstacles broken down, right? In order for smooth implementation, you know, I want to know from your perspective, like, what do you see as the biggest difference?
00:17:14
Speaker
Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that because i just i just did a um ah video on this where I talk about just the word
Strategic Focus: Beyond Goal Setting
00:17:24
Speaker
strategy. I mean, the word strategy is just a filler word. It's um if you go back to the famous quote, right, that um plans are worthless, but planning is everything. in Eisenhower, right? Yeah, Eisenhower. So it's true because planning is so important. Why is planning really important? What does that actually what does that quote actually mean? To me, what it means is alignment.
00:17:49
Speaker
To me, what it means is that we are aligned. we have ah We have disparate groups. We have different groups that have to produce different things according to one common goal, and we have alignment.
00:18:01
Speaker
And so the plan to get there is not as important as the alignment we have. And that is where a lot of leaders fall down because they think if I point to the moon and say, we're going there,
00:18:15
Speaker
Um, and just, you, you just go, yeah well'll just go out any you know, without any alignment behind my car and start driving there. Yep.
00:18:28
Speaker
you You know, it's not shocking to see that people don't end up at the moon. And then leaders are confused. They're like, well, I went to my Vistage group and I went to my CEO round table and they said, you know, set a vision and get the team working towards that vision. And then, you know, that's how you lead a company. And it's like, you know, there's more work.
00:18:52
Speaker
So what's the first sales mistake that that most agencies make you know when they're when they're trying to scale or when they're trying to get bigger, right? what What's something that they can do today to fix that?
00:19:05
Speaker
stop Stop talking about yourself and your services. um ah And it seems and it's it it doesn't seem so obvious to so many people who are sitting in the seat wondering what to do.
00:19:18
Speaker
Yeah. Well, again, you know, you, you want, every agency wants to look bigger than they are. They all want to be, you know, they all say, you know, well, I'm, I'm five, 11 and three quarters, you know, like they, they, they all are, um a bit insecure about their size when they're going into, you know, into a discussion sometimes because they want to look, they want to look stable. It's not because they want to they want to charge a lot is that they they want to look trustworthy and largeness to them indicates trustworthiness. Now, is that reality? No, because that's just, they they put that on themselves. That's not reality, right?
00:20:01
Speaker
um So for me, it's it's really, they have to understand that um the important thing in a sales process is to listen and understand the customer first,
00:20:13
Speaker
and explain your value second. um I just wrote an article about this on LinkedIn about why proposals don't close deals. um Because proposals don't close deals.
00:20:25
Speaker
um The deal is closed well before you put a piece of paper in front of them. A proposal is negotiation. It's not a way to close a deal. And if you get that mindset and you can grow that mindset within your team,
00:20:42
Speaker
that's a huge unlock in terms of maturity for your organization. Hmm. So, so growth isn't just sales, right? It's the systems, it's the people. yeah It's like you said, retention is just a part of as much a part of growth. Yeah.
00:21:00
Speaker
as, as a, as hiring in my mind. Right. Cause if you lose people, even if you replace them, like I said, some of that business might've gone out the door right along with whoever left. So in that tribal knowledge, because you just counted on that person to take care of things. um You didn't, oh you know, you didn't look at scaling the individual.
00:21:21
Speaker
So what, what patterns do you see in agencies that struggle operationally versus those that really thrive as they scale? Yeah, I would say it's consistency. um you know The delivery has to be consistent and they struggle with that, right? Because a lot of times every client is, ah they treat every client like they're a unique and beautiful snowflake. And um while that might be that they are unique and beautiful snowflakes, that doesn't mean that um that each delivery needs to be so customized that we lose sense of what actually works and what doesn't work.
00:21:57
Speaker
Because then what ends up happening in a lot of these agencies when it gets to delivery is that the tail is wagging the dog, is that the client is in charge. um Even though I can't tell you how many times in my past when I had a pissed off client show up, Curtis, as soon as the as soon as I heard this this phrase, but we came to you because you're the experts, I knew we had screwed up.
00:22:23
Speaker
because we weren't leading. they They didn't come to us because they needed a staff augmentation. and And even though some clients will say they need you know a strategic team, a partner, all that stuff,
00:22:39
Speaker
um they might treat you a little staff foggy, but you you got to help them understand that that's not why you hired me. But what some agencies will do is they'll fall back and be like, well, I'm afraid of the client. yeah um So I'm not going to push back on this. And then what you find is six months later, a year later, they fire you and then they say,
00:22:58
Speaker
I thought I was hiring experts. yeah And then your team will sit there and point fingers back at them saying, well, they never let us. They never told us. They never. No, no, we never asked.
00:23:09
Speaker
We never stood up for ourselves. We never stopped the project and realigned um around what good looks like. Yeah. And so that's on us.
00:23:20
Speaker
So but let's talk about some of that leadership. I mean, as as as teams get larger, yeah as they get more complex, um you know, alignment, you talked about it a second ago, right?
00:23:35
Speaker
It becomes a lot harder. It does. what What separates the good leaders from the great ones? Not just when it comes to projecting that vision, like you described, which actually i really like that example about the moon. um But when it comes to people in culture.
00:23:54
Speaker
Yeah, I would say the biggest thing, especially in a service-based business, the biggest cultural unlock is signaling a sense of urgency.
Creating Team Urgency for Goal Execution
00:24:06
Speaker
Really? Yeah. So once we have alignment, we should be aggressively trying to test and, um,
00:24:19
Speaker
and try to break that alignment. We should be testing it. We should be pushing up against it to make sure it's real. Because a lot of people will sit in meetings and nod, and then after the meeting, they'll go into the meeting after the meeting and be like, that idiot.
00:24:34
Speaker
Or what did we just talk about? Or I don't understand. What did we just talk about? I'm not. What a waste of time. um And I tell a lot of my clients, like in the first few weeks, my goal is not to see if there's alignment, but to see if that alignment is authentic.
00:24:50
Speaker
That's what you mean by urgency. Yeah. And so so the leaders that can instill a sense of urgency in all aspects of what you're doing in service, um is that that's what customers want. They want a sense of urgency, right? Everything from when we get Starbucks to if we have somebody that you know delivers our mail, right?
00:25:13
Speaker
um you know Think of any service-based business. we We are hoping for a sense of urgency, whether or not that means it goes super fast or not.
00:25:24
Speaker
It's just we're communicating a sense of urgency. We're communicating that, yes, while i have while you see you're at the tire shop here, you see that there's 14 other cars in front of you, I want you to feel like you're the only customer here.
00:25:39
Speaker
h yeah and the And the leaders who can, train their people, um lead by example. um Because we all pick up cues from leaders. We have visual cues, audio cues.
00:25:56
Speaker
You know, one of the things where I work with these leaders is they they think they're little mice running around and scurrying around through the place. To everybody else, they are giant elephants. Like as soon as they show up, everybody stops and watches and looks. And I can't tell you how many leaders push back and they're like, no, no, no, my team doesn't think of me that way. You should hear all they talk to me. And I was like, no.
00:26:20
Speaker
Well, you know, ah when growth accelerates, you know, but the internal systems might lag a little bit. I'm very curious because you when you talked about when you talked about pressure testing, the authenticity of alignment, and creating the sense of urgency, teams can also often experience burnout.
00:26:41
Speaker
There can be a lot of inefficiency. And I guess so I'm curious, how how do you start to notice these things, right? What do leaders need to watch or be aware of before they become crises?
00:26:56
Speaker
Yeah. Well, you can see the the corporate antibodies attacking very, very soon, even in a small team. um And the the first phrase that is the trigger is we've, but we've always done it this way. Oh yeah. Favorite last words.
00:27:13
Speaker
Yeah. um Or some version of that where um And don't get me wrong, there is value in historical context, right? This is why why so many of us middle-aged men love World War two documentaries. um There's a lot of value in historical context.
00:27:34
Speaker
um But what are we what are we doing with that in the present day, right? what is How valuable is that now? And the leaders should be able to take those things and not look at them as is um as breaks, but as opera as launching pads, yeah you know, and being able to challenge their team and say, yes, we've always done it this way. What are some better ways that we could do it? Can I give you autonomy and agency to do that on your own?
00:28:07
Speaker
and come back to me with a solution. Again, you know, I've seen leaders sit in groups and, you know, they've been in this business for a decade. They're doing all this stuff. And I'll sit in on that first team meeting.
00:28:19
Speaker
And I just watch people just bringing problem after problem, after problem, after problem. And, uh, and the leader's like, see what's going on here. And I'm like, you trained them. Yeah. I do see what's going on. You trained them to bring you problems, not solutions.
00:28:34
Speaker
Yeah. And you're not coaching them to be solution people because the reason they're bringing problems bringing you problems is because inadvertently somehow you have signaled to them that you are the problem solver. They are not the problem solvers. They are the problem identifiers. Right, right, right.
00:28:54
Speaker
And in that corporate culture, again, I use corporate loosely here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:29:04
Speaker
you know, as an employee, I, I assume that the company's taking some responsibility for things, right. Um, and not that, and again, like, that's why you can't just like hand off the whole thing to me and be like, go solve this thing. Well, you know, but the the company has to assume some accountability and responsibility in this. And who is the company? Well, it's leadership. It's the executive team and they have to have buy-in and be stakeholders and,
00:29:31
Speaker
Well, the question that I would have, because you talk about, you made an interesting comment, right? Well, you're the one that trained them, right? And and for for sometimes an operator, right, it's hard to let go of a lot of things. They wind up yeah either micromanaging, they wind up, you know, wanting to solve every problem, right?
00:29:50
Speaker
They can't scale their time. it winds up becoming incredibly problematic over time. So, I'm kind of curious, you know, things like structured rhythms, like developing KPIs, developing these repeatable processes. So for a founder or an operator wearing all of these hats that they have to wear on a regular basis, you know, for maybe a small agency, what's an operational habit they can adopt this week, for example, that might deliver real impact? And and and you can't just say delegate.
00:30:25
Speaker
Yeah, no, i can I can tell you the first thing you need to do is hold up the mirror. So I'm glad you asked that question because I have a very specific answer for that. Because if you're looking at changing things up in the organization, you're looking at maybe org change or services changes or um those types of things. The first thing you as a leader need to do is go to your calendar and audit your calendar.
00:30:49
Speaker
Because
Leadership and Organizational Change
00:30:51
Speaker
if you're If you're thinking about changing things, but it doesn't start with you and how you are interacting and approaching the business, it's all going to fail.
00:31:02
Speaker
So you need to first go and look at your calendar. What can I do to audit and improve and streamline my change before I go out and lead change?
00:31:14
Speaker
I like that because you know a lot of people, their their first instinct is to go and... in fix everything else, everything else that's broken because they don't often think of themselves or what they're doing as broken.
00:31:26
Speaker
But that's really great advice. And i appreciate I appreciate you bringing up the delegation thing because you shouldn't delegate until you have something to delegate. And how do you know what to delegate? I get so many leaders that say like, well, I don't know what I can but I can delegate. And I was like, well, that's because that's we need to audit your schedule first. We need to audit what your tasks and things are first. We need to make changes there before we start going and messing with everybody else's life.
00:31:58
Speaker
Let's talk about what what they track. Excuse me. Yeah, yeah. um Give me a couple of KPIs that agency leaders need to be on top of, right? So that they are just well-grounded in reality.
00:32:13
Speaker
Yeah. number Number one, again, we, why do we exist as a business? We exist to provide a service to our clients or customers. Right. Okay. Yeah.
00:32:25
Speaker
So some people just default to like a net promoter score, which is just crap. Um, it's It's just terrible. um it's It's fine if you are a product, again, net promoter score, all of these things that are business standards, these were built around a product world, a skew world, a place where we ship units.
00:32:49
Speaker
yeah Okay. All these business books from the Jack Walsh's to whichever, they are focused on the product world. And all these service-based people are, we're surrounded by this this business world built to ship SKUs. And it's very difficult to figure out how do I take pieces of that that actually work for my service-based business. It was very challenging for me because I read all the books.
00:33:17
Speaker
Right. And, you know, it was like, you know, watch, you know, EBITDA and all these other things. And all that stuff's very cute. But EBITDA is not the same thing in a service based business as it is in a SaaS based business as it is at Ford Motor Company.
00:33:32
Speaker
That's right. It's very different. But we try to cram all this stuff into business. you know, spreadsheets because they have columns and things and that looks professional and looks makes me look like I know what I'm doing.
00:33:46
Speaker
And the the problem is, is that number one, we are a service-based business. So um what ah what are our clients saying about us? Sure. Is it, would they refer us? That's a that's a good asking point. Did they get what they paid for?
00:34:01
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Um, did they get, did they, we do go on above and beyond. Those are things where client where my clients are very sometimes scared to ask.
00:34:12
Speaker
Cause what if they're honest? Yeah. you know Uh, what if they're honest? I, that's, um, I mean, that should be memed right there, right? Because think about that, right? I mean, we we ask we ask people things. We also want to feel like we're the experts, right? And so, you know, we want honesty, but when it doesn't reinforce like...
00:34:39
Speaker
this, I think this human, you know, need for, for vanity in some way. Right. Because we all also have imposter syndrome to some degree. Right. So if the questions somehow, you know, um, if the, ah if the honesty makes us question, right.
The Role of Honest Feedback in Growth
00:34:57
Speaker
Our own expertise, what then? So that's a, it's the same question asked myself, um,
00:35:03
Speaker
it's the same question i ask myself um Almost on a daily basis, right? Do I want to be better or do I want to feel better? Yeah. And I always, almost always, some days I just want to feel better. It's fair. Most of the obstacleschool time I want to be better.
00:35:20
Speaker
And that means asking Diff a little or, you know, being vulnerable, I guess. Talk to me about people-related metrics, you know, at least ones maybe that you wish were trackable so leaders could have better insight into that health of of their team.
00:35:37
Speaker
Yeah, well, I would say number one is is um start with a metric of any kind. Start with something and see how it works. There's lots of great tools out there that can help you um track um your teams, not only just there their actual work, right? You've got everything from timesheets.
00:35:58
Speaker
um You've got lots of tools that do random check-ins to make sure the team is feeling empowered, engaged, and you've got quizzes and things that you can do. And there's lots of tools out there, but you have to define what good looks like first. And then again, you know, you want to stress test that with your team, but again, goes back to alignment. Are you and the team aligned on what good looks like? Yep. Yeah. And, and then design your metrics around that shared agreement, that shared um thing. Because again, you know i know some agency owners that you know they expect everybody to work 40 hours, billable hours per week.
00:36:42
Speaker
Some places are like, well, you should do 32 hours because the rest of the time is gonna be internal meetings, and little parties and things that we have. And some people are, well, it should be 36 hours, but I really expect 40. And I'm going to get weird with you if you're not doing 40. Yeah.
00:37:05
Speaker
yeah Yeah. So, his You've authored books. you you You host a podcast also, which I want to hear a little bit about here. No ah no no problem with um some shameless self-promotion. Sure.
00:37:22
Speaker
But what what role does continuous learning and and sort of reflection play in your own leadership? right How do you model that for the leaders you advise? Yeah, it's the same thing I did i but did with my my teams when I was running my teams. and when i was When I was running a 50-person team out of that agency 15 years ago, I was um writing articles for the company blog. I was going to speaking events.
00:37:52
Speaker
um I was going out and in um celebrating what our team was doing and talking about the great things it was doing and then bringing that back and talking about how I was doing that. And then when I started the agency, that's kind of when I started the podcast. And part of that was obviously for my own personal growth.
00:38:10
Speaker
But it was me setting the tone and showing the team what good looks like. And they could all listen to the podcast and be like, what's the president and founder, you know one of the founders of the company talking about this week? What's on their mind? And giving them access to me in different ways.
00:38:29
Speaker
it was hugely beneficial, not just like I said, for my own personal growth, but for my own personal growth as a leader in the business. Because every once a while get an employee to come in and be like, Hey, listen to that podcast. I was really good. Oh, what'd you like about it? Well, i like this and I like this. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We should do something like that guy said. Yeah, I think we should. I i learned a lot from him. We should do that. You know? yeah,
00:38:51
Speaker
It was also a way, a lifeline to to not sit there and drive by the hood of the car as a founder, which is so easy to do. this is Tell me some quickly. Tell tell me a little bit about about some of the books. Tell me about the podcast and where everybody can find it.
00:39:09
Speaker
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I've written three books. Actually, the newest book just came out at the first of this year, and January 1st, 2026. The first book was is called The Little Book of Networking, and it's exactly what it is. It's a little book about how to be better at networking. I originally um wrote this manuscript for my daughter when she was graduating college and I had a friend tell me I should turn into a little field guide for networking. And that's what I did and did that number of years ago. And same thing kind of happened with my next book, which is called 10, 10, 10. That's the number numerals, 10, 10, 10, 10. And basically how to structure kind of your future in way
00:39:52
Speaker
sustainable way. It's is very similar to like the format and the frameworks that I use with my clients. But this is for more personal growth. And again, this was ah a friend of mine that um I was coaching and said, you should turn this into a book. And i was like, OK, I'll turn it into a book. And and then this next book is called The Attraction Agency that just came out. And it's all about how to stop chasing clients.
00:40:13
Speaker
and start attracting them. And it's based on the my last 20 years of building attraction engines to instead of chasing after yeah clients and Yeah, they're all kind of more field guides. you know there' There's some anecdotal stories and things in there, but there's a lot of tactics.
00:40:36
Speaker
um I write more like you know somebody writing a ah ah field guide for the for the military than I do maybe ah Simon Sinek.
00:40:47
Speaker
So if you could if you could distill your your leadership philosophy into maybe one belief or or practice right for for founders, but what would that be?
00:40:59
Speaker
Yeah. um you know I would say that um ah i would say that it's it's got it starts with you. know if you if If you are not personally improving and growing, your business is not improving and growing.
00:41:17
Speaker
And I see so many founders that are not investing in ways for personal and professional growth, and they wonder why their company is stagnant.
00:41:28
Speaker
um I know some founders that have really embraced AI and are taking that, and working with that and they're bringing that into their organizations and you're seeing leaps and gains in productivity and all these things. Again, it's because they are leading the charge. But I know some others
Self-Improvement: A Leadership Imperative
00:41:43
Speaker
that are very scared of it.
00:41:45
Speaker
um They have issues with security and copyright and all this stuff. And they wonder why you know other people are seeing growth. Again, It starts with you.
00:41:55
Speaker
Yeah. that's that And it's it's very provocative, right, to to think about that, right? Like, you know, for for an entire philosophy, you know, on what you do to really be distilled, I think, into that simple message, right? It's not simple, but, right, that the you know, but, it you know, maybe it should be. Yeah, it should be. Again, it's not, it's, the work is,
00:42:23
Speaker
The work comes after the realization. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, once we're honest with ourselves and we realize that what we truly want is to grow and be better than we were yesterday. Yeah.
00:42:37
Speaker
And that's a personal journey, not something that is handed to us because our business is successful. Our kids are successful. Our spouse, partner, our family, whatever is success. Cause we are, know, we're on this journey.
00:42:53
Speaker
Yeah. and if we're not focused on growing ourselves, we can't grow anything else around us. love that. so So wrap me up here. If a founder, if an agency leader kind of came to you tomorrow and just wanted your best advice on how to grow their agency, give me the one
Final Advice: Embrace Humility
00:43:11
Speaker
piece. I have a feeling I know what's coming, right? But you're're're you're on an elevator to the top floor before the doors open and they walk right out of there. What is this one thing that you have an opportunity to tell them while they're right next to you?
00:43:23
Speaker
Oh, get over yourself. Oh, I love, first of all, I had a feeling I knew what was coming, but you put it way better than it was in my mind. and I don't mean that in a, in a way of, of, uh, that they were all about themselves in the first place. i hear yeah Not, and not in a narcissistic way, but in, in a way where, um, what they think and feel doesn't matter until they test it.
00:43:51
Speaker
Right. I mean, and the and the reality is, look, we all have hopes and dreams. We all want success and success. I mean that by it looks very different for every person. It doesn't mean don't want it. Right.
00:44:03
Speaker
And, you know, I think that, um, worrying about that perception can be a lot of what you're talking about getting over yourself. It's not necessarily from, you know, um you know, some sort of, so it doesn't necessarily come from an entirely selfish place.
00:44:23
Speaker
um Right. But um you know, or, or self-centered or, or whatever it happened, whatever have you, but, um but just knowing that it's okay.
00:44:34
Speaker
You know, we're not perfect. We want to get better tomorrow. We want to be at least 1% better tomorrow than we are today. and if you can get over you know whatever perception you have in your mind of how that might look to be okay with growth, then you're headed somewhere.
00:44:50
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. My dad taught me a long time ago, you know and i was i was very I was very new leader, and i was trying to I was trying to get the team to go along with ah with ah with a you know with this new initiative and things that I had. And he, he told me straight up. He's like, people love, i was like, these people don't want change. he's like, people love change.
00:45:13
Speaker
They don't want your change. They want their change. Hmm. I like that. i realized like, Oh, I see. I thought I was supposed to leader be the leader and just to have the big reveal, like, you know, like mad men, right. Of like, here's the big reveal of the place we're going. And I didn't realize that.
00:45:35
Speaker
I have to make it their change. Right. I like that. I don't do that. That's why I say, get over yourself. Right. Because, um, you're thinking that, well, as a leader, I got to be the best and smartest person in the, in the room, which is usually the worst thing you can be.
00:45:51
Speaker
Maybe being a good leader is just bringing out the best in everyone else. It is a hundred percent that, yeah, I can't, I mean, I, all those businesses I built, was because of the teams. That wasn't because I was some genius. I was just, I was just very good at.
00:46:07
Speaker
Well, maybe that word genius, Kurt, the right people and hiring them and getting out of their and getting out of their way. Well, I want to thank you, um, Kurt. Thanks so much for, for joining us. I appreciate you taking the time, uh, to join me today. No, i really appreciate it Curtis. I've really enjoyed our conversations and thank you for the opportunity to share this. I hope, uh,
00:46:29
Speaker
it ah It helps someone out there and if they got any questions, um you can find me on LinkedIn. Just reach out. I love it. I love it. It's been fun. and Thanks to all of you watching and listening to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. Please ah visit mustardhub.com to learn more about Mustard Hub and get started for free and discover how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. Until next time.