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Rediscovering Humanity at Work in an AI-Driven World with Dr. Anna Tavis
5 Plays14 days ago
In this episode of Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes welcomes Dr. Anna Tavis — NYU professor, author, and global HR thought leader — for a wide-ranging conversation about the future of work.
Dr. Tavis shares how her background in linguistics, philosophy, and global business shaped her view of HR as the place where identity, ambition, and culture converge. She reflects on navigating large-scale layoffs during the financial crisis and how that experience ultimately led her back to academia with a renewed mission: preparing leaders for complexity, ethics, and uncertainty.
Together, they explore why AI will force organizations to rediscover what makes humans valuable and why leadership must evolve beyond efficiency alone.
This episode challenges leaders to rethink work not just as output, but as a human system.
About Anna:
Dr. Anna Tavis is Clinical Professor and Chair of the Human Capital Management Department at NYU’s School of Professional Studies. As Department Chair, she leads three MS degree programs in the Human Capital Management Portfolio: Human Capital Management; Human Capital Analytics and Technology and Executive Coaching and Organizational Consulting. Additionally, Dr. Tavis manages five HCM certificate programs. She is the co-author of several books. Her newest title is The Digital Coaching Revolution.
Prior to joining the NYU faculty, Dr. Tavis navigated a diverse global career in business, consulting and academia. In business, Dr. Tavis was the Head of Motorola’s EMEA OD function based in London, Nokia’s Global Head of Talent Management based in Helsinki, United Technologies Corporation’s Chief Learning Officer, and she was the Global Head of Talent and Organizational Development with AIG Investments. In academia, Dr. Travis was on the faculty at Columbia University, Williams College, and Fairfield University.
Dr. Tavis is a frequent presenter at international conferences on the topics of Future of Work; People Analytics and Technology; Employee Experience; and Intelligent Automation in the Workplace. She is a Senior Fellow with the Conference Board and is the Academic in Residence with Executive Networks. She is the former Executive Editor of People+Strategy Journal, a publication of SHRM’s Executive Network and she is currently an Associate Editor of Workforce Solutions Review, a publication of the International Association for Human Resource Information Management.
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Transcript
Introduction to Mustard Hub & Guest
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I talk with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes. Our guest for today's chat is Dr. Ana Tavis. Dr. Tavis is a clinical professor and chair of the Human Capital Management Department in NYU's School of Professional Studies. and As department chair, she leads three master's degree programs in human capital management portfolio. human capital management, human capital analytics, and technology and executive coaching and organizational consulting.
Dr. Tavis' Professional Background
00:00:44
Speaker
Additionally, Dr. Tavis manages five HCM certificate programs. She's the co-author of several books. Her newest title is The Digital Coaching Revolution. And prior to joining NYU faculty, Dr. Tavis navigated a diverse global career in business, consulting, and academia. In business, Dr. Tavis was head of Motorola's EMEA OD function based in London, Nokia's global head of talent management based in Helensky,
00:01:15
Speaker
and United Technologies Corporation's Chief Learning Officer, and she was the Global Head of Talent and Organizational Development with AIG Investments. In academia, Dr. Tavis was on the faculty at Columbia University, Williams College, and Fairfield University. Dr. Tavis is a frequent presenter at international conferences on the topics of future of work,
00:01:38
Speaker
People Analytics and Technology, Employee Experience, and Intelligent Automation in the Workplace. She's a Senior Fellow with the Conference Board and is the Academic in Residence with Executive Networks.
The Impact of AI on Workplaces
00:01:53
Speaker
She's the former Executive Editor of People and Strategy Journal, a publication of SHRM's Executive Network, and she's currently an associate editor of Workforce Solutions Review, a publication of the International Association for Human Resource Information Management.
00:02:11
Speaker
Welcome to Behind the Pill, Dr. Tavis. I am so excited for our conversation today. Thank you. Thank you. And let's talk about how AI disrupts it all, right?
00:02:24
Speaker
You know, um your background is, it's fascinating. I'm so surprised I was able to read that entire thing in just one breath. um Not really, but it's incredible. and And really no offense to our other guests, but you're just one of the most interesting people, I think, that we've had on the show. You're one of the most respected thought leaders in the HR space.
00:02:48
Speaker
ah So I kind of want to talk to you about you a bit before we really dive into a lot of other things. um We also share an alma mater. I went to and NYU. So i'm very proud of that, even though it really means nothing in the context of this conversation.
Dr. Tavis' Journey in HR
00:03:04
Speaker
But what brought you to the human resource space in the first place? Was being yeah was was being one of the top minds and voices in ah hr the the plan all along? yeah Not at all. I think it's just the fascinations with humans.
00:03:20
Speaker
and specifically myself being in Taipei individual who is very ambitious and wanting to make a difference, I felt that the most difference I can make is in a a workplace. It's a space where people...
00:03:36
Speaker
you know, fulfill their ambitions. They find their partners very often. They find what they're good at or not so good at. And um um this is how a lot of our lives, at least in the United States, are structured around, you know, our jobs. But I'm looking at work philosophically thinking about, i actually wrote a book, Humans at Work,
00:04:02
Speaker
thinking about what the role of work um is in shaping who we are, our identity, our career, and not only career, but personal pathways, et cetera. So um having started my education as in linguistics cultures, you know fascinated with anthropology, philosophy, I was very eclectic in my choices of academic pursuits.
00:04:32
Speaker
ah And it all, when I started thinking about work, it all kind of filtered into this one particular, ah you know, opportunity as working in HR, because that's where you feel you find culture, you find career, you find the future, et cetera.
00:04:52
Speaker
And i think this is like a really unique convergence of all of my interest and it all applies. Yeah. I mean, the the business the background in business and everything you did before academia, i mean, you've you've already, before you ever transitioned to academia, you had like the equivalent of three incredibly successful careers already, you know, smashed into into one person. So, you know, that that by itself was pretty remarkable. But what led you to pivot into academia
00:05:27
Speaker
you know, into academia? What was it that made you want to make that transition into, you know, helping tomorrow's, you know, leaders of people?
Transitioning Between Academia and Industry
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think, you know, I was an academic. I i mean, I got my PhD from Princeton University, i had a really phenomenal time being in the Ivy League sort of environment. But I felt coming out of there and starting to teach ah that it was pretty isolating. You know, like it's very hard to get out of, especially
00:06:02
Speaker
schools like Ivy League schools into the real world, even teaching um and find the like ah right kind of connection. So I abandoned my academic role and went into business. And that was the kind of the ah my jobs that you recited um and it made that career transition, finding how everything I've learned could apply or not in the workplace.
00:06:35
Speaker
And I think that career shift into business from a more kind of a satiric space um is actually very important now. I think it's, I find it very relevant to the ah ah a workplace that is going to be shaped by AI more so than where we were before.
00:06:58
Speaker
And if people think that getting business education will lead you to a business successful business career, that's not going to be necessarily the case. That's my theory of where we are going.
00:07:13
Speaker
We are actually going to be rediscovering humans in the context of work because we're confronted with a technology that is going to be and is already imitating humans in the workplace. So we need to reconnect with our humanity to be successful in this new technological environment.
00:07:33
Speaker
And um so anyway, ah the way the reason I ended up returning to academia and more into professional education, not you know, kind of a satiric academic research space where I was before was because of the financial crisis. I was actually working on Wall Street in New York City um at the time when, you know, the financial services sector actually disrupted the know whole you know life cycle of the economies around the world. And
00:08:09
Speaker
And it was a big wake up call for me. um You know, I were i was at AIG of all places. They kind of where the whole financial explosion of financial crisis explosion occurred. yeah um So the work that I joined corporate world to do about developing people, you know, creating healthy organizations, building teams, all of a sudden,
00:08:40
Speaker
with a 180 turn became the work of laying people off thousands, now closing down businesses, selling bills, buildings where my office was,
00:08:55
Speaker
you know, to to recover the assets, et cetera, divesting businesses, again, with thousands of people being displaced and dislocated, et cetera, if you recall. So it was a very dramatic experience. um And I realized, again, the importance of being human in that type of crisis situation is and And I started teaching part time ah when I was going through all of those different transitions in the in in my in my job um and kind of found a mission of helping the next generation leaders in HR, specifically working at the graduate level, find their careers, find their purpose and being able to navigate
00:09:48
Speaker
Very, very dynamic work like workplace that to they were, you know, being prepared to face. And obviously now I find those skill sets even more relevant.
Human Qualities vs. AI-driven Tasks
00:10:00
Speaker
I love what you said about, um you know, ah about what we're facing right now with how AI is is really disrupting, you know, um this world of work that we're in.
00:10:13
Speaker
And having to now sort of rediscover that humanity, right? Lean heavily into those things that make us human, that that differentiate us from the agents that can do those repetitive tasks and those repetitive jobs, right? Because there's there's gonna there's always gonna be a place for humans, right? We're we're just now so starting to, we're being forced, I should say, um to sort of face that reckoning. what What is that even look like, right? What are those things that make us human, um right? And i i I notice and I can appreciate that. And I also see, you know, there are some some parallels. it's not Obviously, it's not the same thing, but there's some parallels now
00:10:58
Speaker
with regard to these layoffs, with regards to these transitions, right, that are happening now because of the new technologies that exist compared to what happened during the financial crisis. The reasons might be different. People were were getting laid off then for for different reasons.
00:11:13
Speaker
People are getting laid off now for obviously for for different reasons than back then. But the similarities that exist are in what some of these outcomes are.
00:11:24
Speaker
You're still seeing tens of thousands of people in single organizations be displaced, be let go for whatever reason, right? Maybe this technology is is is replacing what what those folks can do.
00:11:37
Speaker
Maybe it can't, you know, ah ultimately, right? Time is going to be the judge of ah of that. But like it makes a lot of sense to me when I hear you talk about, you know, that shift into academia and how it kind of your focus just transitioned into um almost this more benevolent, I guess, purpose, right? You're you're more driven by the purpose, right? Than than the actual um business opportunity that you that you had, I guess, at the time.
00:12:06
Speaker
Another thing is kind of and I want to i want get more to AI here in a second, because I know you have a whole bunch to talk about that that everybody I think needs to to hear and to listen to. i have a feeling I see a lot of the same, just in listening to what you've said so far.
00:12:20
Speaker
that I probably share, um you know, a lot of those same feelings, but you're also on the editorial advisory council for the the journal of total rewards. You're on multiple boards. You're involved with executive networks. You're you're you host the and NYU coaching and and technology summit.
00:12:38
Speaker
um there's much more that I've probably missed or or don't even know about. um So my big question here is, how do you have time for everything?
Self-care and Professional Demands
00:12:49
Speaker
What fuels this passion to just... i Clearly, you must be carving out every 15 minutes of ah of your days.
00:13:00
Speaker
Where do you find all of this time? And what did I even miss? Yes. um You know, I do think that when we want to get a lot done, we really have to take a very good care of ourselves.
00:13:13
Speaker
I mean, that's the primary focus in, you know, anyone in very demanding jobs. And especially now with so much... um you know, happening and changing around us. um So I think, um you know, I'm, I'm a yoga practitioner, I've been ah practicing yoga for 25 plus years. So ah learning those habits and making them a part of my routine so that I can clear my mind.
00:13:48
Speaker
um with meditation, exercise, etc, etc, nutrition, all of those things are of extreme importance to me, very precisely because not so much for if you think that just for purely selfish reasons, but you need that you need to maintain the energy, you need to maintain the interest and the curiosity, etc, e etc. And it has to come from within you because that's what impacts people most. So I think any one of us even going through multiple life changes has to take care of ourselves.
00:14:27
Speaker
And there's so much information now there's so much um in another area of my interest is well being and health. in the workplace and how important it is and i think that's going to be the next chapter of humans at work is how do we integrate this information how do we help people learn how to you know yeah take care of themselves first um and uh so i think i think that is really important and then the second thing is
Facilitating Executive Conversations
00:15:00
Speaker
just constantly learning, unlearning and also being sort of humble. You know, you never you never stop. You really think about never kind of read your own resume and think how much you've done.
00:15:13
Speaker
You know, forget it. You just keep moving because there's something around the corner that you want to address. You want to learn new skill sets. And it is just ah an ongoing project.
00:15:28
Speaker
Well, i appreciate I can appreciate that on on just about every level. I also, I'm glad that we've sort of humanized you a little bit, right? Because with with all of the the accolades and all of the things that you do and all of the you know the the boards and the books, um you know it's good to it's good to you know see that human element, I guess, ah as well. But but you know speaking of those executive networks, tell me a little bit about what those are and what exactly does an academic in residence do?
00:15:59
Speaker
You know, the what I do in multiple, you know, ah media um and communities like executive networks um is really sit down and listen.
00:16:12
Speaker
um You know, I'm usually invited to talk. But what I find, Curtis, really fascinating is all I need to do is to plant some ideas that might be a little controversial because you're in a room with very experienced people.
00:16:30
Speaker
And it kind of ignites an incredible conversation. and And the ability to start the conversation, put it kind of on the right track, include all opinions and points of view, and let people express themselves in the environment where they feel they're being listened to.
00:16:54
Speaker
is tremendously and informative i bet because in a lot of those spaces even when they invite you to speak like the sage on the stage they're really hoping that it will help them solve their own issues and then The other thing, especially in this environment where we're mostly on the video call or whatever, it's about helping people connect with each other and building those communities, ah you know discussing things among ah professionals who are going through very similar experiences, but with with their own nuance and building relationships. And that's that's what generates kind of the next...
00:17:45
Speaker
um the the next solution, the next decision that these people make. Because at the end of the day, Again, they have those answers within themselves. a lot of times you you don't really share anything that they have not heard on your podcast, other podcasts, et cetera, et cetera.
00:18:07
Speaker
People want to share, kind build new connections, ah get validated, be listened to. And that's my approach.
00:18:19
Speaker
i I
Insights from 'Humans at Work'
00:18:20
Speaker
love that. I think you're 100% right. um You know, you've also, you have several books that you've published. um Share with me a a little bit about them. Which one is, you know, would you say is the the must read for HR professionals? You know, you you can you can say all of them too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. yeah I mean, i mean, my the latest two books is one is Humans at Work, um where I think they're they kind of predate AI. But that particular book, Humans at Work predates AI. But it is anticipating a lot of the questions that we are trying to answer.
00:19:04
Speaker
find solutions for answers for now with AI, because it's it's exactly the dilemma. you know What are we doing at work if there are all of these technologies that are coming in that are more efficient, more productive, et cetera, et cetera. So what is humans at work?
00:19:23
Speaker
And it was very interesting because I did co-written it with an engineer. My co-writer, ah Stella Lupusho, who is a colleague as well, she was an engineer and I was more like a philosopher. And we... And it wasn't an easy process. We always challenged each other because hers was a very kind of technology focused point of view. And mine was more philosophical. You know, why do we work? Why do we need empathy? Where does this come from? And it it was a really helpful combination. And I think that that book kind of lays the foundation of
00:20:06
Speaker
a lot of discussions that are happening now. I have my favorite chapter is on empathy. And I look at all sides of empathy. i mean, right now we're saying, oh, you know, the machines can't really have empathy.
00:20:19
Speaker
and And I wrote, you know, several blogs and articles about how we do have technology that has empathy now. and at At least that's the next generation.
00:20:30
Speaker
of technology that's trying to imitate an empathetic yeah yeah empathetic relationship with a human. ah But at that point, I did look at multiple different sides of it. and And this is where Curtis, I think my background in philosophy was very helpful because and when people ask me, what is the skill that we need now most?
AI and Philosophical Implications
00:20:54
Speaker
what do What do we need to learn? And I am saying we all need to understand philosophy. We we have to go back and ask those big existential questions about why we're doing what we are doing because of this new challenge that occurred. So that's that's the book, Humans at Work, that I really love. In fact, you know I was looking at that time, was puzzled.
00:21:22
Speaker
by the fact that a lot of like technologists who I followed as they were putting out those products and services, they were actually deep followers of different kinds of philosophies and i specifically was interested in the Stoics. you know And and i quote a lot of Stoics in that book um because interestingly enough, you know at the place where we are now,
00:21:49
Speaker
we really need to understand Socrates and the dialogues and you know dialectics and all of those kinds of things. and um And it just reminded me, I want to put kind of wrap this ah point up that Sam Altman at one point said that everyone is comparing AI to the industrial age. This is kind of the usual parallel where we ever find ourselves. But It really is about the Renaissance.
00:22:22
Speaker
You know, what we are going through is the Renaissance, which is a very different set of, you know, experiences and assumptions and challenges that humanity faced right at the Renaissance than the Industrial Revolution. It's not, we're really beyond purely tech kind of transitions. Right. Yeah, the Industrial Revolution didn't force people to confront their own mortality, their own reality, their own, all of these different philosophical questions that in the Renaissance, I mean, that was...
00:22:57
Speaker
That was the Renaissance. Exactly. Exactly. And so I think that this is a really, this is my favorite, my favorite quote from Altman. I think he, he really captures what I think we, ah most of us still don't understand about AI and what, and and its potential. And, ah and that's where I spend most of my time. That's why I think humans at work is a,
00:23:22
Speaker
is where I was trying to wrestle with some of those questions, but not because AI was around, but because I i had to work with an engineer yeah with a very different set of um you know different programming hardware. Yeah, that's interesting. But it confronts the very questions that we're answering right now. So it still sounds very, very relevant.
Evolving HR and Educational Needs
00:23:44
Speaker
A lot of interesting things that you just mentioned about technology and and and kind of since we got all the the the personal stuff out of the way, I want to talk about the future of HR. You know, it's, um ah I mean, you can't blink, right? It's evolving so fast.
00:23:59
Speaker
ah This technology and as much as it's changing, right, it can be hard to keep track of all of these things. Curious on your perspective as a professor and a department chair, do you feel like, mean, look,
00:24:13
Speaker
today looks different than it did back in January, right? and And even in January, it looked different than it did three or four months prior to that. i mean, do you think academia can actually keep up at at the level that it needs to, to really even prepare this next generation of HR professionals?
00:24:29
Speaker
Yeah. um I think I can. the and and and And it is an important distinction because Curtis, I think at the level of where it is happening now, at the level of an individual instructor, what I tell my students is that they always have to not just read the title of the course, unless they want to learn some very specific skill or programming or whatever, but it is about who is teaching it.
00:25:03
Speaker
And I always say, pick your professors. Do not just pick the topic that you want to you know pursue or learn about. um Because is where...
00:25:19
Speaker
this is where Individual, like myself, I threw out everything. I teach today. i teach very differently than I taught six months ago.
00:25:30
Speaker
Threw out all the books, textbooks, et cetera. Totally different approach. Experiential, discovery, challenging, conceptual. ah Again, working with opposing points of view, ability to negotiate and make the right critical thinking. We're talking about.
00:25:51
Speaker
So if you're just teaching protocols, you know, um and and the predictable kind of templates, that's where it's not going to be sustainable. There's a timestamp on it, and it's going to be outdated before you even know it.
00:26:11
Speaker
And you know my challenge as a department chair is to see it reevaluate who my faculty are. yeah Do they have enough experience other than knowing you know how to teach A to Z, ah to be flexible enough learning on their own and be able to make ah the right pivots and adjustments within the curriculum, within the protocols of higher ed.
00:26:45
Speaker
And this is where I think it's going to be important to choose the right school where you go. yeah Like, for example, NYU is a very, as you know, very entrepreneurial school. We are, you know, in the middle of New York City where a lot of things are happening.
00:27:01
Speaker
And, you know, we ah kind of feed off the energy of that innovation. and So I think there's going to be a reshuffling of who is who in education as well as in the workplace and any different you know industries.
00:27:21
Speaker
um It's not going to be equal. It's going to be people. It's going to be adaptive versus protocol based. Right. you know if you If you run your organization based on protocols,
00:27:37
Speaker
you know ah frameworks, you know all of the kind of top-down approaches vis-a-vis adaptive, agile, and responsive.
00:27:52
Speaker
Those are the types of organizations in all industries who are going to succeed. um On that note, you know i I know that you know all the current practitioners have a lot of valuable tech available to them.
00:28:10
Speaker
Do you feel like these HR teams, whether it's HR of one or some or um you know, and their leaders, do you think they're tapping into all of these tools effectively? Are they are they tech ready? um do you find us in a transition period? I mean, how do you see all of these tools that are really available, right? I'm curious your opinion on their adoption, their efficacy, you know, and then just sort of the general HR community at large. And if you find that, you know, they're sort of –
00:28:47
Speaker
what's the word I'm looking for? Just yeah they're well permeated, I guess, within the community. I mean, it depends. Again, i think there's all of the above. We are like in this messy transition right now.
00:29:01
Speaker
where you're going to find people who are not able to adapt for one reason or the other. ah Those who are resisting, it's a bell curve, um yeah resisting adoption because they feel that if they're going to train these tools and show how it could be done more efficiently,
00:29:20
Speaker
They don't have imagination to think about how to do things differently. And there will be early adopters, people who are, you know, and and obviously ah being in HR, I know And to me, it's not an AI issue or a tools issue, it's a people issue. These transitions in technology are people transitions. Can ah you know your workforce embrace all of this?
00:29:49
Speaker
And it all goes back to who were you hiring? What were you hiring for? I like that you brought all of that stuff up because i i I love that you brought it back to a
HR's Tech-Enabled Future
00:30:01
Speaker
people problem, right? I mean, we talk about people all the time. People create the problem. People solve the problems, right? People create the technology, right? The technology is there to solve problems. It can also create problems, right? so um But it makes me curious. like We obviously can agree that I think h HR is in a – well, not just HR. guess we're all sort of at this inflection point, right? And HR is really moving into this data and very tech enabled function. um
00:30:31
Speaker
I'm curious to hear, you know, being that it comes back to people, how do you see that changing the teams? Do you see massive amounts of jobs disappearing now in ah HR specifically? Do you think there's going to be new roles emerging? And if so, I'm kind of curious to hear your take on what those roles might be. Like, how do you see the makeup of those HR teams changing?
00:30:52
Speaker
Yeah, I think those are all going to be augmented teams, right? or Or a blended intelligence, blended human services solutions. And by blended, I mean, it's it's a partnership with technology, those ah tools. and and i And I think, you know, we need to be at the table helping develop and adopt and, you know, find the right fit for for those technologies in ah in the service of people and organizations. So definitely different skill set, but most importantly, Curtis, most importantly, different mindset.
00:31:32
Speaker
Yeah. And and again, i'm I'm a little idealistic. Maybe I do start with, you know, do you have the mental agility to be able to accept and adopt ah to, you know, these new technologies? Because most of the resistance, as as you probably know, comes from, you know, inability to embrace lack of curiosity, defensiveness. Yeah. ah as you said All of those things kinds of things, right? And fear and fear, quite quite quite honestly. Yeah.
00:32:08
Speaker
yeah So, I mean, I think you're, you're a hundred percent right about, about all those things. um You know, i loved the, the concept of blended intelligence, um you know, not really a, ah you know, a phrase that I'm have used a lot, but definitely needs to be coined if it hasn't already um about some of these tools, platforms, features. um What is going to be the most beneficial for these, you know, h r teams?
00:32:41
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, other than um I think those technologies are going to continue to evolve. And and as you know, there are now voice enabled, they're going to have become more and more human like.
00:32:57
Speaker
And that's the opportunity here. You know, what has always been getting in the way of HR becoming a much more, ah you know, kind of technology enabled function was the self-selection of people who joined HR because they didn't like math, because they really wanted to work with people. yeah And they um saw business as this kind of cold finance oriented.
00:33:31
Speaker
And then a lot of the businesses are still run that way. But I do think that these technologies are making themselves almost kind of invisible.
00:33:41
Speaker
And this is why my other book that I wrote, Digital Coaching Revolution, is touching exactly on that evolution of new tools that are going to become our coaches rather than our masters.
00:33:58
Speaker
um Where technology, if you don't understand something, it's going to help you right there. You know, it's going to help you to learn to learn a new tool. You know, this is my my tech support now is my Gemini. Yeah. You know, my IT, my anything advisor, et cetera. And i specifically focused and did a lot of research in my conference and at NYU is on coaching and technology. Because I do think that by building coaching and helping humans transition, creating a safe environment to ask questions, stupid questions without being judged, ah in the flow work, within the tasks, um is going to be ah you know a real make or break, is going to be a big pivot away from intimidating tools, platforms, et cetera, where you had to turn you have to learn how to operate them on their terms yeah to...
00:35:04
Speaker
technology that's going to be adaptive to me, to my level of thinking, to my level of skill, as opposed to you. i mean, there was never a nuance in the tools that we had at work before and did any differentiation between people with different cognitive ability, with different cognitive preferences. et cetera, et cetera. And now we're gonna have the tools that are gonna be adaptive so that even though my approach was gonna be different from yours, the outcome is gonna be the same because the tools are gonna help us get there in our own acceptable way. And I find it extremely exciting.
00:35:46
Speaker
i think this is an absolute revolution. this is why I called it the digital coaching revolution. And I'm seeing these tools, be like Copilot, for example, being already embedded.
00:35:59
Speaker
And the the companies that I advise that are in this kind of ah assistive coaching space are really now beginning to integrate those solutions within the existing, you know, what used to be sort of a clunky, intimidating systems. We are going to see this humanization of tools to ah low the barriers of entry to technology for all humans.
00:36:27
Speaker
um which i So I love this. And and just to sort of distill it in the way that I kind of heard it is, you know, in terms of the tools and and features that are going to be most beneficial, I think ultimately it winds up being the tools that help us be a better us.
00:36:43
Speaker
Exactly. not It's not the performance management tool or it's not the workflow management tool or it's not the, you know, spreadsheets or coding tools. It's not any particular of these tools. It's whatever tool that helps us use tools and just be us at a but higher level.
00:37:00
Speaker
exact And then, yeah, so there might not be really just one answer then for for everybody, because we all have different, you know, like you were saying, different tastes and preferences. We do have different skill sets. We have things that we're better at than others. So obviously these tools are going to have to be adaptive in a way that kind of I guess, compliments us the the best that we need to be complimented.
Leadership and Strategic Management
00:37:22
Speaker
um Makes me curious then, you know, how leaders, you know, when it comes to their workforce, all this tech that's available to them, the things they should be prioriti prioritizing, right? you How do leaders navigate today's AI-driven workplace and all those advances that are that are that are coming down the pike?
00:37:47
Speaker
So first of all, I think the leaders are going to stay much more connected to who their people are and where they are. um there's There's just so much more data that are going to be available to leaders in terms of like doing the traditionally you know you you run through an employee survey, you know you do focus group or you do Q&A of some sort. and But these are all kind of episodic ah information gathering tools, right? like We've all been through employee surveys once a year. You answer the question. there are always concerns around
00:38:35
Speaker
you know, who's gonna read it, do I, you know, and there's a half a year, lag between you know what the company does if a company even does anything about the data they collect so the leaders are kind of the blind leading the blind you know the episodic subjective understanding of until it's too late you know the the people are leaving you know there's a huge attrition rate and that's already too late so we're going to be with these tools we are already
00:39:12
Speaker
collecting so much more intelligence and in a positive way. You know, there's always kind of the dog side of it when, you know, we think about um surveillance and all of those tools are tracking how we work, et cetera. But look on the positive side. Look on the positive side where a leader can look at the dashboard and see where there warning signs in some parts of the organization and can go in with a much closer diagnostic of what might be happening and be proactive and preventive about, you know, eliminating some of those barriers. So I think leaders are going to be better informed,
00:40:00
Speaker
about their organizations if they choose to do it yeah they can it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's where, you know, there's a next generation of leadership as well. But I think with the availability of data in what And this is where the ethics are going to play and the intention and the humanity of leaders is going to be so important.
00:40:21
Speaker
Even now, Curtis, if you think about it, with all of the layoffs, I often get these questions about layoffs, et cetera. And i actually wrote a post about it on on my LinkedIn um newsletter saying that layoffs is not an AI solution.
00:40:39
Speaker
It's not an AI problem. It's a leadership problem. And that has to do with the fact that leaders having the information available to them need to be able to be a lot more, you know, adaptive and seeing where the people could go. Because ah trust my, you know, my experience here, you know, a few months down the road, they will have to rehire people, retrain them. And it's going to be, we know it historically. Yeah. It's going to be crazy expensive. And that means that it's a reaction. It's a reaction to the market to get certain, you know, outcomes, the shareholder, you know, the market share, whatever. But, you know, you need to be mindful longer term and leadership needs to be a long term strategic function and not just a knee jerk reaction to the latest trend.
00:41:38
Speaker
you um You have touched on so many things that I love to actually talk about and do quite often. um feel i feel like we're going to have to actually have another one of these chats. But some of the important takeaways here, you know and a lot of things that I like to talk about you know for things coming down the pike in 2026, a lot of predictions that that' you know I'm often seeing from a lot of other leaders as well,
00:42:05
Speaker
um when it comes to how you know ai or or frankly just the future of work is the ability for leaders to be less reactive and more proactive. you know I think up to this point, um you know like like you talked about, you know churn was yeah almost a reality that was you know just you we were forced to accept um and and hopefully plan around. and it's expensive and, you know, it doesn't have to be the way that it is. Now, you know, there there is going to be churn, right? i mean, we don't have to, it might not be eliminated entirely, um but I think, you know, there there certainly are are ways to prevent that regrettable turnover, right, that we don't want to happen. And if we can surface those early warning signals and we know that there's an intervention window
00:43:04
Speaker
you know we can do something about that to create a better you know workplace environment or culture, or or support our teams the way that they need to be supported. you know Another thing that we often talk about is the personalization of those total rewards and that workplace support and that kind of environment. right And the the ability to be able to do that along with seeing these early warning signs can be incredibly transformative.
00:43:32
Speaker
And like what you're saying, you know, with all these layoffs and how reactive it can be, if we had that kind of insight, or, i mean, we do have that kind of insight now, if they were using that kind of insight in a way that they, you know, should be, I guess, to make, you know, different choices, you know, they could have had, you know, slightly better outcomes, you know, we'd be in a little bit of a different place. So I can really appreciate that. And I kind of love that you brought that up, but it makes me wonder,
00:44:02
Speaker
are there certain kinds of upskilling or education, things that you recommend for leaders who want to be able to drive that positive change? Are there skills or competencies that they're going to need to learn in order to do that?
00:44:17
Speaker
Yeah. You know, I yeah ah like to compare people function and labor market data to the financial markets and financial data and if you think about the sophistication that we've developed on the financial side with a predictive ability with kind of the nuance the um you know investment that went into developing that kind of financial infrastructure and architecture
00:44:52
Speaker
And we're in the stone age when it comes to understanding labor market, when when when when it comes to understanding the true impact of managing humans in organization.
00:45:08
Speaker
So on the one hand, you know, i I can't blame leaders alone because I do think that it's a function of our societal blind spot.
00:45:19
Speaker
And now I'm seeing a lot of innovative companies emerging that are trying to close those gaps ah in providing the data sophistication and by no means equals that of financial sophistication that most leaders have.
Innovating Business Curriculum
00:45:40
Speaker
um But everything will need to change. I think that the leaders will have to realize, you know, and starting with where I sit, the curriculum of business schools.
00:45:52
Speaker
You know, there's one course on org behavior that is very traditional and that's about it. The rest of it is financial education. financial models, et cetera, et cetera. So we need to give, whereas I would argue again, and we can have a discussion about it, that those leaders need to understand philosophy, you know, what it means to be humans at work. Why are we not asking people those questions when they are graduating from elite business schools? um So I think we need to be rethinking leadership first and foremost,
00:46:28
Speaker
as we are transitioning into this Renaissance technology that you and I discussed, yeah that we shouldn't be just accepting the playbook that the leaders used and were rewarded for. And you mentioned rewards. Unfortunately, we created a reward system where regardless of what the best intentions of a leader, of the leader might be,
00:46:55
Speaker
they're rewarded for the exact opposite of those intentions. It promotes toxic leadership. Exactly, exactly. So, you know, on the one hand, yes, it takes courageous leadership.
00:47:06
Speaker
It takes individuals making decisions on their own and setting examples, and we have a few of those. who are bold enough and they are articulating it. I will say Mark Cuban is, you know, one of the people that um I follow.
00:47:22
Speaker
um But the majority will follow the playbook. We need to change the playbook, Curtis, and we need to put, ah you know, ah starting from how we educate people to who they're learning from, how we coach them, um who are their mentors.
Evolving Leadership with AI
00:47:40
Speaker
ah We need to, Pay attention to transitioning leadership to the new age of AI. um Let's kind of go down that that road a little bit. keep Keep a kind of a future focus here.
00:47:58
Speaker
Predictions on what the future of work is going to look like then. What are the big changes you expect to see in the workforce coming up or or big shifts on how and or where we we work? What are some of the first things that come to mind? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, yeah to use the kind of the cliche here that we are overestimating the impact immediately and underestimate the longer term impact.
00:48:22
Speaker
um So I do not think I think we're going to make a lot of mistakes along the way. And my only caution is let's learn from those mistakes. Again, those questions that I'm asking you, what are the playbooks that need to be rewritten? What are the role models? Let's look at the best practices out there.
00:48:44
Speaker
um We need to be paying attention, listening more. and And we need to have these types of conversations that you'll be meeting through this podcast. um about what will it look like. um But I do think that um it will require from us a lot more thinking and revisiting that we've done in the previous ah generation, a couple of generations. I mean, if you think about how many books have been written on leadership,
00:49:20
Speaker
oh man And I still keep coming out every every day. I'm looking at LinkedIn and somebody else is putting a leadership book out. and And I think that we need to stop producing, stop ah writing and start thinking and listening and paying attention. And this is where I, you know, I wrote books, et cetera. I'm kind of moving into a different ah form of putting my thoughts out there.
00:49:53
Speaker
You know, I like LinkedIn. i put my blog out there. that When I get inspired about a topic, there's got to be a more immediate way of creating a conversation, igniting a good kind of community sharing and then making a point about it. and And this is where, to be honest with you, I love to be where I am and in academia because I realize that it will take a partnership with people like myself and ah people in the executive networks or you know at in organizations that need to act before they think. or they think they do need to act before they think. But we have the ability to step back in academia and reflect and then have this very dynamic exchange. But I think we are in a very, very interesting and potentially very exciting time when we we absolutely have to rethink how we did things before.
00:50:58
Speaker
Well, okay kind of my my, I guess my last question here as we as we wrap up, but and I always really like to, you know, get your perspective on this. If a leader comes to you, you know for advice on on how to really kind of get it right when it comes to, you know, doing the best by their people, um and you only have a minute, you know, or or less than a minute, right? Maybe you're on an elevator up to the top floor and before the door opens and they walk right out the door,
00:51:27
Speaker
What's that one thing? What's that one thing that you tell them if you only have a second that they can kind of take away and could be transformative? Yeah. You know what? Here I would use my coaching skills and I know that we do not have the time on the elevator, but I bet you, I bet you that this leader, first of all, because they are asking the question, they already have some inkling, some instinct around what is the right thing to do.
00:51:57
Speaker
What happens is, and I think with leadership at that level, what they they are often crowded out. Those instinctive right solutions that they have are often crowded out by the cookbooks, the you know the templates, the social pressure, they market... It's those frameworks, all those things. Frameworks, et cetera, et cetera. And oftentimes...
00:52:26
Speaker
This is where I'm going again to that. my role My role is not to give them advice because they know what's right for their organization deep down and kind of have that confessional space in the elevator where no one is listening and say, if none of those pressures existed, what would you do? What would you do?
00:52:50
Speaker
And that is empowering because they're going to find what they genuinely, authentically know is right, ah rather than, again, be looking out for who is saying what and then getting all confused.
Conclusion & Call to Action
00:53:09
Speaker
I love that. Ana, it's great, right? If somebody turns into an elevator and asks those questions, you turn it right back to them and said, what would you do, right? If nothing if if nothing else exists, right, and you can just trust your instincts.
00:53:25
Speaker
What do those instincts tell you to do? I really love that. Thank you so much for for taking the time with me today, Dr. Tavis. I appreciate ah all the insights, all the perspectives. um We're definitely going to have to do this again sometime because I know we didn't get a chance to cover everything, but I'm just grateful to have you here.
00:53:42
Speaker
Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. Thank you. Thanks to all of you watching or listening to this episode of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Subscribe, like, share, comment. Be sure to check us out at mustardhub.com to see how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. And sign up to get started with Mustard Hub for free while you're there.