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HR Entrepreneurs Are Rarer Than You Think with John Baldino
6 Plays18 days ago
Why don’t more HR leaders become entrepreneurs, and what happens when they do?
In this episode of Behind the Build, Curtis Forbes sits down with John Baldino, founder and president of Humanreso, to unpack the business side of HR leadership. With over 30 years in HR, John shares how shifting market dynamics pushed small and mid-sized organizations to compete like enterprises without enterprise resources.
They explore why HR professionals often avoid sales, how relationship-driven business development shaped Humanreso’s growth, and what it really takes to build a consulting firm that scales without losing its humanity. John also reflects on the evolution of HR itself —from in-house payroll to today’s complex ecosystem of outsourced expertise.
Along the way, they discuss content, community, and why humor and authenticity matter more than polish.
About John:
With over 30 years of human resources experience, John’s passion for setting contributors and companies up for success is still going strong. John is a keynote for US and International Conferences where he shares content and thoughts on leadership, collaboration and innovation, employee success, organizational design and development as well as inclusion and diversity. John has been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, SHRM Publications and is a regular contributor to the Humareso Blog. John has been named one of the 2025 Top 100 HR Tech Influencers. He is, also, co-host of the wildly popular LinkedIn Live webcast, “But First Coffee.” John is currently the President of Humareso, a global human resources consulting firm, and the husband of 1 awesome wife and the dad of 3 amazing young adults.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Background
00:00:07
Speaker
Welcome to Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. In these episodes, I talk with the people building, backing, and running better workplaces. I'm your host, Curtis Forbes, and our guest today is John Baldino. With over 30 years of human resources experience, John's passion for setting contributors and companies up for success is still going strong.
00:00:29
Speaker
John's a keynote for US and international conferences where he shares content and thoughts on leadership, collaboration and innovation, employee success, organizational design and development, as well as inclusion and diversity.
00:00:45
Speaker
John has been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, SHRM Publications, and is a regular contributor to the Humoriso blog. John's been named one of the 2025 top 100 HR tech influencers.
00:01:00
Speaker
He's also co-host of the wildly popular LinkedIn live webcast, But First Coffee. John's currently the president of Humoriso, a global human resources consulting firm, and the husband of one awesome wife and the dad of three amazing young adults.
Founding and Mission of Humoriso
00:01:17
Speaker
Welcome to Behind the Bill, John. Thanks for joining me today. Curtis, thank you so much for having me. That's so great that I get to hear my own bio. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I did do i did do those things.
00:01:31
Speaker
that And it's it's is's quite a mouthful. I mean, you um you're you're you're a little bit of a celebrity. we have a little bit of a celebrity here today. wow. that's i have to hear i have to hear more about But First Coffee. like When did you start the web series? What's the concept and the format? I love that. I want to hear more about it. i've actually I know a little bit about it but as I've watched, but I'd like for you to share it with everybody listening.
00:01:58
Speaker
Yeah. So um we're like we're coming up on four years of doing this. And ah Jackie Clayton is my co-host, or I should say I'm her co-host. for when she listens. That's correct. Right. And, ah you know, it's very much, um and I'll really like go back in the archives for this. We run it very much like Regis and Kathy Lee, like the first 10, 15 minutes of how it used to be.
00:02:29
Speaker
um It's a little more scripted than the newer version of things. Like, but back then it was like, what One topic comes up and they chat for a few minutes and move into another and say things that they probably shouldn't say and backpedal. And and so it is very organic and I love it. And it's very, very, very community involved. Like people chat are involved in the chat on all different platforms and just commenting on things. And so we really do a lot of interaction as well. Super fun.
00:02:58
Speaker
I love that. Well, before, mean, before we jump into other things, any tips for me on having a successful web series? You're on the spot now, John. know, right? Well, Jackie had, you know, she had been on The Amazing Race. And so, of course, that kind of helps, right? So maybe if you did like Dancing with the Stars or something like that could maybe help the web series to do better. you could look into that.
00:03:21
Speaker
fit Fair. Yeah. We'll put that next on the roadmap. Van versus wild, maybe. Could do that, maybe. um Well, cool. So, I mean, to kick things off, tell me um tell me a little bit about Humoriso. And if I'm not mistaken, you're also the founder, right? Not just the president. I am. Yes. Yeah. So i at the privilege of being involved in an HR as you shared for such a long time.
00:03:45
Speaker
And so a little over 13 years ago at this point, I started Humoriso.
Transition from HR to Entrepreneurship
00:03:50
Speaker
And the the goal, I would say initially, it still is, but the the primary goal initially was seeing what was happening in the marketplace for organizations that were small business, and maybe lower mid-market tier companies,
00:04:06
Speaker
And they were competing much more robustly with larger organizations because of the way in which um commerce was occurring, right? Like with, with web traffic and a lot more online ordering of things. If you're in the product space, in the services space, we were just kind of really getting comfortable with some forms of Skype. Remember Skype and some of those that, right. And, and,
00:04:34
Speaker
um I thought, gosh, after all these years of me being involved in ah HR and seeing what, like when I started, we were doing payroll in-house and benefits were like major medical and we took care of those things in-house. HMO was really weird. And so like we we just had this very, very insulated view of what was then personnel responsibilities. And And through the years, decades, you just see all this, I'll say outsourcing start to occur, seeking external support. And I thought, we're really going to start needing that for these smaller businesses, lower mid market, who are finding themselves competing in talent strategy considerations, in market placement, in growing teams in a way that's going to create other verticals and deepening um offerings for companies.
00:05:24
Speaker
they're going to not be They're going to need our support and not be able to afford a CHRO or a VP of HR. How can we help to get some of these tools in their hands and support in their hands?
00:05:36
Speaker
And Hugh Mariso was born and thankfully i was kind of right. yeah I'm really kind of curious. So I, the, the story about why it sort of came to be makes a lot of sense. Like I see and, or, you know, I can see that market shift. Right. And I, and I lived through it, I think to some, to some degree kind of dated me a little bit with Skype. Boy, we, I remember you using that back in the day. Right. um But, um,
00:06:02
Speaker
Tell me about your journey even before that. I mean, how did you get into HR in the first place? and But now you're an entrepreneur, right? I mean, so so these are very two very different things that sort of crystallized into one person.
00:06:17
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, it's um it's an unusual space, place to be, right? There's not a lot of h r entrepreneurs involved. from a service oriented perspective. and Yes, on the technology side, certainly, right? Certainly there are, but on the,
00:06:34
Speaker
on the entrepreneurial side of things for HR, it seems kind of counterintuitive, right? Not comfortable. Most HR people are not great at sales, to be honest. and right And so I've always had this sort of vibe to me in terms of being able to talk to people. um And that serves well in HR, but it also serves well in sales.
00:06:59
Speaker
And so from a business development standpoint, which is probably... And i don't it's not like I'm trying to wordsmith it, but and I probably look at it more like that. I'm developing business based upon the way I would interact with people.
00:07:14
Speaker
So um it came very naturally in that regard. i I think that ah I still feel a bit of an anomaly when it comes to that, though, for sure.
00:07:25
Speaker
Yeah, I would probably characterize you as an anomaly when it comes to that. But yeah what even attracted you to
HR Challenges and Solutions
00:07:35
Speaker
HR in the first place? What made you stick with it You know, there had be something because a lot of people, frankly, run away from it.
00:07:41
Speaker
Yeah, it it isn't that glamorous in the sense of, you know, especially when I got involved in the personnel end of things was very tactical. i mean, I remember starting out and I was helping to do um ah ah operational training.
00:07:57
Speaker
i where I started in retail and so, yeah um, taking people in and showing them how to use the register. And back then we had triplicate carbon inserted receipt paper that we had to put in each time. we I mean, right back in the day, department store kind of thing and how to stock and restock items and, um, you know, dealing with customer complaints, that kind of stuff.
00:08:18
Speaker
Very, very tactically minded in terms of the, the way in which I kind of cut my teeth and personnel. Um, and And I just like the instruction part of things, I will tell you. their Training is probably a core bit to me.
00:08:35
Speaker
And so that educational component just sat well. And this vein of business was the place for that to happen. um I was asked to do management you know in other ways, like other operational management things. don't know. I just didn't think that was the path for me.
00:08:51
Speaker
i i Well, you are a people person. And um i you – I get that vibe that you like to and are probably very good at helping people be better people people.
00:09:06
Speaker
Yeah. um That might be confusing if you put that on your website, but if you use it, feel free. You don't you get that one for free. I will let you know if I use it, yes. but Back to Humoriso for a beat.
00:09:19
Speaker
What kind of organizations does Humoriso work with? Now, you don't have to name any names here, um but I'm kind of curious to tell me a little bit about what that picture looks like. Who are your customers?
00:09:30
Speaker
um You know, what what are what are these kinds of – how big are they? You know, what's the general complexity? Is it a very diverse worker classification specific to industries, et cetera?
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah, it it is um it is diverse on purpose. um And part of that – is because my own career previous to starting Humoriso has been very diverse um ah in terms of ah industry. So retail, as I mentioned, restaurant, hospitality, education, bit of nonprofit,
00:10:05
Speaker
ah manufacturing and distribution, banking and finance, technology. I mean, so pretty varied. yeah And so i felt like if I'm going to start Humoriso, i wanted it to be um just like me in that regard. I didn't want there to be, because if you do good human resources, you should be able to do it anywhere. I understand there's nuances, but you should be able to do it anywhere.
00:10:29
Speaker
And so our client base looks like that. As I shared, when I started, it was amazing. Small business more than anything else. Still probably true for us in that 50 to 500 employee range being our largest segment, I would say, that we support percentage wise.
00:10:46
Speaker
But it's been funny through the years, these 13 plus years of Humoriso, the enterprise level clients that come and said, well, wait a minute. Really? Hold on. Come and talk to us for a little bit.
00:10:58
Speaker
And do they come to you? Well, tell me about some of the challenges that that bring them you know to you for support. Is this for change management or is it for... yeah yeah I'm sure there's several reasons that that you know are different across everything that you offer, but I'm kind of wondering if there's a common pain point maybe.
00:11:18
Speaker
I would not say there's a common pain point. I will say, ah but I will be thematic. Sometimes it is, and honestly, i would say, Curtis, like right now, we're trying to do more with less in a lot of companies. And I don't care if you're small or up to enterprise. Everyone's trying to do more with less. We see the reductions in force happening. We see some sort of technology creep in some areas that's kind of replacing some things. It's not as widespread as all that, but still some.
00:11:47
Speaker
um And so you have companies that are like, okay, How do I still get done some of the things I need to get done with um lowered headcount? How do I do that? So some of that is very tactical on our end. So, for instance, if you think about some enterprise level organizations with thousands, tens of thousands of employees, they're happy to outsource leave management, for instance, to us.
00:12:10
Speaker
we're handling all the FMLA state leave city leave related, right? That takes so much time. And they're like, listen, we need to get our business partners, our HR business partners out amongst the people to handle employee relations and and build up the teams not to take hours and hours and hours to process FMLA paperwork. You all do that.
00:12:33
Speaker
We'll take care of this. Terrific. So it can be very thematic in that regard as far as- Where you're working directly with their employees, not just helping leadership with some type of like change management. You're actually, okay, great. Yeah, yeah and we're like regularly part of the ah HR team meetings, let's say every week because we're functioning in that regard.
00:12:55
Speaker
But to your point, another theme is really organizational design and development. That's going to include change management. It's going to include values constructs, right? We have organizations that have found their value system stymied.
00:13:09
Speaker
we They're great words. We've forgotten how they're supposed to show up. they're They're just words on the wall, right? They're not really permeating through the organization yet. Sure. And how do you rebuild sort of a ah again, a change perspective
Leadership Challenges and Growth
00:13:23
Speaker
to it? How do you build a communications strategy to it? How do we build technology that we already own to sort of activate based on some of these values that that haven't lived? How do we help people to know where they show up in very measurable ways um that allow management
00:13:41
Speaker
to be ah more free to invest in others to say, let's talk about what transparency means here, if ah for example, if that's a value of yours. What does that look like? Does it mean that we're supposed to tack up everybody's salary on the break room wall? I don't think so. you know like What could that look like? And we kind of come in and and help with that sort of redesigned thinking in org structure, but also behaviors, right? We're talking about building habits. We're talking about um building interactions, um frameworks for that. What are the personas look like if we're going to start hiring to bring people in as well?
00:14:19
Speaker
That sort of thing.
00:14:22
Speaker
It's very interesting. I think a lot about these things. I'm curious from your from your mind as the founder, not just president, but how did how did these things influence how you built Humoriso? I'm curious about where you you know you started from one place, solving a particular problem, and people came to you for so many of these different things, these these thematic you know items that you touched on.
00:14:51
Speaker
what what was that roadmap? What did it look like to get you to your current state? um i Gosh, I wish I had a great story for this. So the first year, the first year in all transparency, it was just me.
00:15:11
Speaker
i I was working- most- Yeah. as As most startups and small businesses, I mean, that's that's pretty standard. And I think that people, we don't talk about that enough, to be honest with you. I think that we wait to see the the the you know a company that's being acquired for $40 million. dollars Wow, look at what this person did. And that's- No, it was i was- I worked in the basement of my own home, unfinished basement,
00:15:36
Speaker
i was I'm six three my ceiling is six foot, I had to keep my head between the joices of the the floor above me in my unfinished basement, and that's where I started. And I say that because it really drove home why um the the contract of building Humoriso mattered concurrent to the work that I was doing for clients, because I knew that My knee jerk, again, honestly, my knee jerk is let me do it all.
00:16:10
Speaker
Can I do it all? Yes. Should I do it all? That's a totally different question, but I can. If you were advising yourself, I'm sure you would have thoughts on that. Correct. Genuinely. And so when I look to build the organization, one year, almost to the day of Humoriso's existence, I hired my first two full-time and one part-time person.
00:16:32
Speaker
And ah because things had started to grow so quickly. And I think that when I looked at the organization, I thought two things. One, while I want us to be able to be as much of a ah resource for as many companies as possible, I need to make sure that I'm surrounding myself and in light of the clients we're supporting with the areas where, while I can do it, I'm not the best at it. what Who are those folks that are going to come in to help be stronger in areas that I'm not.
00:17:04
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Like if I never do an open enrollment for benefits again, i promise I will die fine. Like I, I don't ever have to do that again, but I've got people who they cannot get enough of reading summary plan descriptions. Like they, and yet they're probably, and they're amazing at it. I'm sure. Amazing.
00:17:22
Speaker
Amazing. I want that person. yeah And I want that to that person to shine. You know, you you teased and i I will take it as teasing. You teased early on to say, you know, the whole celebrity thing and all that. The other thing that I was very thoughtful of is if my voice is the only voice that's heard, what a shame for what I'm building.
00:17:41
Speaker
What a shame for what I'm building. I need to make sure that the other voices in the room are heard and heard as deeply and significantly as someone might think my voice is. And we've been very fortunate through the years to have such great folks be ah become a part of Humoriso. um And I very rarely had to do a lot of recruiting.
00:18:01
Speaker
ah You know, the the network is is wide and deep. and um And so just letting a couple people know, hey, I might be looking for, you know, and having folks say, just let me know. soon as you're ready, yeah let me know. I'm coming.
00:18:15
Speaker
I love, there's there's a few things I want to i want to pick apart here um that I love. I mean, that's it's kind of a testament to your leadership, right? And and it's funny because I think most people Most folks who start a business, um founders whether you're founders of a large organization or even a small business, um you wear a lot of hats early on, especially, right?
00:18:36
Speaker
you talked about you know talking you You talked about talking about these things transparently if was... you know as if it was you know so a bad thing. The reality is we we all have imposter syndrome. And I think that that's it's something people don't address a lot. It's something that we hide. you know We keep under the trench coat, right? Because we don't want others to think anything about it or to see through us. um But Everybody starts somewhere, right? We all start in ah in a particular place. And it's a testament to your leadership to be able to recognize that, yeah, you can do everything. You did do everything because you had to do everything. Yes. um
00:19:15
Speaker
But, you know, there's that saying that that A players hire A players and B players hire C players. um the fact that you've been able to find people who can elevate you is what will keep the entire organization elevated. We have a a value at Mustard Hub, and I generally don't like to talk about Mustard Hub on on these um on these ah on these calls, but it's relevant here, and it's iron sharpens iron, yeah right?
00:19:43
Speaker
yeah And if we're not holding each other accountable and elevating each other, right, then the organization as a whole will s sink to the lowest common denominator.
00:19:55
Speaker
And ah you know obviously somebody who can recognize those things and be comfortable with being at some times the quietest person in the room, that's okay. Yes.
00:20:05
Speaker
And I will tell you, it's excellent. I'm so glad you shared that insight about Mustard Hub. That is awesome because um ah in the context of the imposter syndrome that you were mentioning as well, relatively speaking, that concept really came to be in existence in the seventies.
00:20:25
Speaker
Now, as someone born then, i would like to say it wasn't that long ago, but in time, like relative to time, it isn't that old of a concept.
00:20:37
Speaker
And, and so why am I saying that? Because I think the way in which m ah commercial business construct has progressed in has sort of forced people into this, oh my gosh, this moves so quickly. I'm aware of how much I don't know.
00:20:58
Speaker
Who am i Someone's going to find out. That started to happen. but I mean, and by the time we got to the 90s, it was like, oh my gosh, left, right, you everything's moving.
00:21:09
Speaker
when you can have people around you that help to ground you to say, it's okay that you don't know everything. And by the way, when I'm with you and people are treating you like you know everything, I'm also gonna be the person to say, he didn't know everything.
Managing Expectations in Organizations
00:21:20
Speaker
And so, you know, my my wife is such a great partner to me. You can't say it to her. i i can't. No, she won't watch this anyway because she's like over the HR famous thing. She's like, who cares about what you do? right like and And I say that to say the smartest business people, key people around them that are grounding.
00:21:44
Speaker
it may not be every role around you, but you got to have a couple that at least are going to help ground you to say, don't believe your own press. And also don't believe the lie that you're not good enough.
00:21:55
Speaker
You live in between. That's important. I like that. um I like that i'd like that. I like that a lot. um And you don't have to tell your wife that she doesn't know everything. That would be a bad career move. That would be a really bad career move on your part.
00:22:11
Speaker
um She's well aware. Talking more about some of some of the clients that come to you, I mean, do do they usually have a good insight into what their organization needs? Do you have usually have some guiding? Is there some process? And and I kind of follow that up with,
00:22:29
Speaker
I think from what yeah I would imagine that a lot of the pain points and problems that the organizations face could be classified as more like misalignment, right? Between leadership and the workforce, between the teams, even within the leaders or the workforce, you know, regarding some expectations and then reality.
00:22:49
Speaker
Talk to me a little bit about like, do they sometimes get it wrong? Do they need your guiding? Do they come to you already knowing what the problem is? And tell me more about like how you see the alignment between each of the teams individually and then together within the organizations.
00:23:07
Speaker
Such a yeah big question. There's so many facets to that. So, but, um Sometimes they do come to us with, I'll actually say more than sometimes, probably the majority of the time, might be slightly majority, but majority nonetheless, having an idea about what they think the problem is.
00:23:26
Speaker
um I'm not saying that that means by the end it is what they thought, but they do have some sense of here's what we've assessed. There are times for sure that we come in and they're like, I have no idea.
00:23:40
Speaker
I just want to fire everybody and start over. And you're like, okay, well, that's probably not the greatest place to start. So we'll, we'll figure out what's happening. But, um, I do love the fact that they take a stab at it, though. I'm not mad that any client will come and say, i just talked to one today that said, we just have um a workforce that um can't stop talking to each other about how undervalued they feel.
00:24:08
Speaker
Fascinating, right? and And we pay well, we give great benefits, we do this, we do that, but they continue to have these side conversations about how undervalued they are.
00:24:21
Speaker
and And so they have done an assessment and it'll be fun to see what we uncover because this is something that we can help get them out of.
00:24:31
Speaker
But there is hard work here. That's the thing that I think I want to a highlight because you mentioned a a word that I was absolutely going to say, which is often it's expectation management that you've got to address.
00:24:43
Speaker
Why do you expect the things that you expect? Where does that come from? um And it can be from the simplistic to the complex. So simplistic, someone sits with you and says, an employee,
00:24:59
Speaker
Um, ah you know, Jimmy's picking on me. Jimmy, my manager is picking on me because, um I do things that he talks to me about and tells me I need to do better. And I know he doesn't talk to anybody else like that.
00:25:12
Speaker
It's only me that he comes and tells and talks to. And the response to that is, I'm so sorry you feel that way. When you've sat in with Jimmy's conversations with other employees, what have you observed in the way in which he disciplines them?
00:25:28
Speaker
And to see them sort of stop for a second and say, well, I don't sit in with Jimmy when he's talking to other people. Okay, well, what you just said was he doesn't do this to anybody else, only to you, but he's only talking to you when he talks to you. How do you know what Jimmy is saying to the other employees? You have made an expectation of what Jimmy must be saying to other people that had to come from somewhere because you've leaned into that as truth, not just an opinion.
00:25:54
Speaker
right and right and Right. And that has now affected the way in which you've chosen to engage. Again, simplistic. Complex is where you start to have senior leadership all the way at the C-suite who are wrestling with forecasting.
00:26:14
Speaker
as one example. How do we predict and know what's coming? How should this organization be ready for what's coming? When should we know if we should pivot with some of the service or product offerings we have?
00:26:27
Speaker
How do we know when we're ready for a new vertical of offering product or service? How do we know if it's time for us to acquire something that feels like we're missing? how do we and you just go through this in all of these questions and i say where is the expectation coming from that you should know all of the answers to the seven things you just said where does that expectation come from is it because you have ceo after your title is that where that comes from and the response almost always is ultimately yeah
00:27:03
Speaker
i'm I'm the COO, I'm the CFO, I'm the CEO. Because of being given that title, my responsibility is to know. And that's such a heavy burden.
00:27:14
Speaker
It colors everything that you'll do and how you approach people and how you approach circumstances. That's, again, those ends of the spectrum. To answer your question, that's the gamut that we'll run and sit and be invited into with with clients.
00:27:29
Speaker
isn I think that's really interesting. Some very good examples there about sort of this expectation management. um I feel like that should be its own field of study. Yes. Because your brain...
00:27:42
Speaker
lives the reality that you create, right? So in in your example about the employee who had this expectation or felt this particular thing, he was obviously, he or she was obviously disgruntled, was angry about it, was upset about it. And then it was causing a bad experience in the workplace. Why? Well, because that's how his his brain was living that reality.
00:28:02
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And it is, it's rough because, you know, as the HR person, you want to be protective of every individual. As John from Philadelphia, so different than the ah HR person, I want to take this person out back and say, here, here's the last seven write-ups for other people other than you. Now do you feel better? but Now do you feel better? Right? Like, but you can't, obviously, like, that's that's not what you're going to do. But just the sense of, my gosh, we waste so much time. Why would you waste months and months fretting over this? It's not true.
00:28:39
Speaker
So, you know, for a lot of leaders who want to see let's say, better alignment across their organization, drive positive change, you know, do well by their people.
Enhancing Leadership Skills
00:28:49
Speaker
you know, I think a lot of a lot of leaders, you know, have this need to feel these things. Mm-hmm.
00:28:55
Speaker
Uh, do you, you think there's certain kinds of upskilling of education, things that they should be pursuing, um either for themselves, things they should be giving to the people that they work with? You know, do you think their skills or competencies that they need to learn to set themselves up for success in this space? You've talked about a lot of different things.
00:29:17
Speaker
What do they do?
00:29:19
Speaker
ah I have a few thoughts. Okay. okay And I'll try to be succinct with them, right? So one, um ah if you're not great with finance, take the time.
00:29:33
Speaker
Skill up. Don't be afraid of the P&L. Don't be afraid of the fact that you've been looking at one for five years as the COO or the the VP of something, not finance.
00:29:46
Speaker
and and you still don't quite understand everything, just ask for help. Ask, seek that seek that support, get that education.
00:29:56
Speaker
It's okay. HR people famous for not understanding it, but not asking, just go get the help. um I would also say though, on the maybe a softer end of things, soft skill type thing, critical thinking is is like woefully in short supply.
00:30:15
Speaker
Lost art. it it And we have removed too many barriers that people should experience so that the critical thinking components can develop.
00:30:29
Speaker
We spoon feed so much and make things so accessible in our education system and and leading into the workplace.
00:30:39
Speaker
It's really hard for people to know how to develop coping mechanisms. and and response theory in practice. When we've let everything be distant, remote, protected, insulated, we're robbing ourselves of some of these critical developments that we need in our brains.
00:30:59
Speaker
We need it because critical thinking again is in short supply. I will pepper that in by saying we also need to help people with real relational management.
00:31:11
Speaker
One area that comes to mind, and again, this is not scripted, one area that comes to mind off the top of my head is forgiveness. We don't teach people how to forgive. We just assume that forgive means just get over it. That's not what it means.
00:31:27
Speaker
We've got to help people to learn how to forgive because that is stuff that people carry for years. You and I, Curtis, have an interaction. It doesn't go well. ah I'm mad at you. You ask, you say, I'm sorry. I say, it's all cool. It's fine.
00:31:41
Speaker
Six months later, when you do the next thing that pisses me off, I'm going to remember six months ago because I haven't forgiven it. It's not past. It's going to dog me and I'm going to carry that thread of grudges all the days of our interactions. that's not It's not helping us. It's keeping businesses stymied.
00:32:00
Speaker
you know I've never had a conversation in in this podcast and, and, and crossed this bridge and talked about, and it's interesting to hear you talk about that, right? Because in the normal course of human relationships, which is what happens within organizations, right? with Any organization that has more than one person, right? Has human relationship dynamic and, um, forgiveness,
00:32:29
Speaker
First of all, transgression and forgiveness, right, are are parts of those relationships that's going to happen no matter where you go, right? um I think that, you know, while obviously nobody wants friction in in any kind of dynamic that they have in the workplace, I think it's inevitable at some point in time. And even if it's because of a misunderstanding, right? It can be something as little as misunderstanding.
00:32:51
Speaker
um But... you know We talk about what's fair, what's not fair, what's legal, what's not legal, what's all these things, but we never talk about what you
Balancing Technology and Human Connectivity
00:33:05
Speaker
just said. Nobody talks about it.
00:33:07
Speaker
it's not in a It's not in an ah HR manual, right? It's not in each generally not in leadership training, right? right? It doesn't make it anywhere in the book.
00:33:19
Speaker
And i think you've hit on something that's actually a ah nerve. It's really interesting. And we've never had this conversation. Thank you for bringing it up. My pleasure. And I agree with you wholeheartedly.
00:33:31
Speaker
Yeah. But, you know, it's interesting that I'm going to kind of pivot here because we talk about relationships, we talk about human connectivity and interactivity.
00:33:45
Speaker
And over the last, you know, 30 years, everything that we do at work has become more and more digitized, you know, relationships and, and even relational skills,
00:34:02
Speaker
obviously are are on decline. I mean, I don't have to explain to you or probably anybody listening, right, that, you know, when it comes to being on your phones, you know, the way that the the newer generation, the way the new generation, you know, communicates or or frankly doesn't with with each other, um you know, i mean, they could be sitting right next to each other and texting each other and that's literally how they communicate. I mean, you you've got kids, I've got kids, we know how it works.
00:34:28
Speaker
Yes. um it may it it's it It makes sense. It's sort of this obvious straight line, as as much as we don't want it to be, where, listen, there's there's even tools and technology out there that aim to create a human layer through technology.
00:34:49
Speaker
You know, so let's talk about let's talk about ah HR tech. I mean, what what kind of tools and platforms you don't have to name drop, you can name drop them all. What kind of tools and platforms should leaders be embracing or at least what category in in order to see, you know, with greater clarity, align with their organization, drive these results, see these positive outcomes, these outcomes that, you know, to be described through the lens of your work.
00:35:18
Speaker
Yeah. um It's a great question. And I have to tell you, i don't know if I've ever been asked that question. It's certainly not in that way that you just asked this fascinating question. Yes. I completely with you. One point for Yeah. I mean, yes, write that down. i'm I don't want to come at it, you know, for those that are listening. We're not curmudgeons. Curtis and I are not like raising our fists in the air saying these young people today, they don't know how to communicate. That's not what we're doing.
00:35:43
Speaker
um ah However, we also know that we've got a workforce that has evolved quickly over the last five years into one that is more fractured because it's separate, right? There's this remote workforce component, at least the hybrid component has has influenced the way in which rapport development occurs. There's no way around it, folks, that it has influenced it. Okay. From a technology standpoint, I'm a a couple of simple things to start with and then i'll i'll i'll go a little bit more in the weeds simply love um uh apart from an accommodation that's been officially requested i love encouraging people flip the video camera on stop with the camera off just audio if we're got if i'm never going to see you i'm missing out on tons of communication cues
00:36:38
Speaker
in body language and facial expression, all the things. It's like I've only known you on the telephone. And back in the day, that was a thing sometimes, but we thought it was kind of weird to only know somebody on the telephone because we didn't really know know them. We didn't see all the things. So encourage people. i have staff meetings and cameras on.
00:36:58
Speaker
Let's go. Cameras on. um That's one simple thing because it doesn't require an additional spend in technology. You're using Teams or Slack or Google or whatever it is you're using. Just flip it on.
00:37:09
Speaker
um The other thing I would say is I love the idea of helping people be forced into relationship, meaning and do some skip level chats.
00:37:21
Speaker
Do some, and ah let me define that. So if you report to a manager and that manager reports to the director, the director should be reaching out to that employee, skipping the manager level and you not all the time, but checking in with that person, developing a rapport with that person.
00:37:37
Speaker
helping that person know how to develop a rapport with someone further up in the organization. Expose them to this. We can't be mad at people who've never been exposed to these things and then say, i don't know if they're going to be able to communicate you know effectively at our level. Well, they've they've never been exposed to it, so of course not. um It's like having 10 year old, ah you know, be expected to know how to play varsity soccer when they've been playing travel for, you know, a 10 years old, give them a chance to be exposed to it. Let them see it. Let them see the difference. um
00:38:10
Speaker
ah Again, a couple of simple things to start with from a more ah in the weeds perspective.
00:38:19
Speaker
I love the idea of utilizing ah technology, and I'll be specific to HR tech, that incorporates healthy AI that's defined.
00:38:30
Speaker
It's okay for there to be AI-related components to some of the software that's happening that might open a door for practicing
Future of HR and Outsourcing
00:38:39
Speaker
communication. I love the AI bots that are interviewing people um and give you a chance to sort of practice interviews with an AI bot that will be responsive to what it is that you're sharing. I think that's terrific. It helps me to know what I'm missing because that bot has been programmed to be able to say, as a result of Curtis saying this, this makes the most sense as a follow-up question or these three choices. Now, as I'm the person who's interviewing, I've got to be ready for those three responses. ah Okay, let me practice.
00:39:12
Speaker
The other thing out though, i don't just do agentic AI bots on everything. That's not relational, right? I don't need a bot for every single thing that's going on.
00:39:23
Speaker
Back in the day, we used to have Clippy in Microsoft and I was desperate to close Clippy every time he came on because he was in a nuisance, right? he was a nuisance.
00:39:34
Speaker
Don't have this bot constantly pop up. Can I help you? What do you need? Can I help you? What do you need? Can I help you? You want to make people angry. Build your product to do it that way. you Like there in HR, we're leaning a little too much in some platforms doing that.
00:39:52
Speaker
Be thoughtful about why we would do it. We're not teaching people how to be and critical thinkers coming back to that. We're just teaching them to look to the bottom right corner and ask everything without doing any research, without learning how to disseminate information. We've got to help people balance that, right? And give them opportunities to do it.
00:40:11
Speaker
Last thing I'll say quickly, um There are great learning management tools that are out there. LMS, right? Get those things in place, but do things that are behaviorally minded.
00:40:24
Speaker
There needs to be a practice of what it is that you're you're reading. ah The only name that I will say to start with is Humoriso, my own company. We've got proprietary platforms, HTS Humoriso Technology Solutions, HTS Perform,
00:40:39
Speaker
with habits in place, my goodness, let people practice. You cannot measure them on things that you're asking of them if you've never given them chance to be exposed to it until the moment that they're being tested on it. You're setting them up to fail. Let's figure out ways that we can build behaviors into the work that we're doing or we should be doing in order to advance people.
00:41:02
Speaker
I like that. I think, you know, once... um a Well, eventually offline, you're going to have to tell me a whole lot more about that because I want to dive in a lot deeper to that, but we'll have to do that at a different time. But but with all these things in mind, let's let's look towards the future. Let's talk about some predictions. I want to hear what's on your mind when it comes to the future of What's it going to look like? Tell me about the big changes in the workforce, particularly around outsourcing and remote teams. you you You brought that up. Tell me a little bit about distributed teams, remote teams, the hybrid. Tell me about the future of work.
00:41:40
Speaker
um we've got people who may be working in organizations that are sunsetting. I didn't say dying. I said sunsetting. They're moving from, you know, they they are wanting to retire. They're wanting to at least step down.
00:41:53
Speaker
Those that are coming up don't expect work to look the way it looks right now. They don't. And so if I look to the future, we have to be ready to pivot. I still talk to organizations that want me to know that we're not going to change the way that we're doing work. It's been like this for 58 years.
00:42:12
Speaker
This is how it is. And this is all it will be. And my response to them is, okay, you may be right. What will happen when you retire? You do three people's jobs right now.
00:42:25
Speaker
When you retire and someone comes into your role, I'm going to tell you the percentage of people who want to do three jobs, but be paid for one is slim. What will happen then? right I'm not even sure it's a non-zero number. right So you're setting the kind of all the awesome work that you've done for X amount of years of this company doing that is all going to be gone like that yeah because no one will do it. How do we build and scale infrastructure?
00:42:55
Speaker
in work to be done, come to the job, come to the work to be done. I'm not asking about personality. We we honestly, one of the things that for the future of work is for those organizations that are still scaling based on personality.
00:43:08
Speaker
It's not a long term game. It's not. You got to get to the work, the work to be done. The other thing I want to give a shout out for, though, for the future of work is I love love the hands.
00:43:20
Speaker
The trades get to it. We need to continue to be encouraging to people who are going to be our plumbers and be our electricians and build us homes and and take care of our streets and all those things.
00:43:33
Speaker
It is super important that we pay attention to what's happening in the world and know that these trades are desperately needed. Yeah, and becoming more and more valuable, especially as, you know, their AI is not going to be able to replace those jobs nearly as easily as it is, you know, for for others. So that's, ah what about what's next for Humoriso?
00:43:55
Speaker
What does the future hold for your organization? I would love to say another 13 years. Let's hope for that. Right. um i am I just think more outsourcing. I mentioned this a while back in our in our chat, this doing more with less.
00:44:14
Speaker
I don't know if that's going to fully, if we're going to fully come out of that. And so I think what that means for Humoriso is more opportunity to partner and encourage organizations through work that we will do.
00:44:27
Speaker
And quite frankly, even in some of the coaching that we get to do as well, there there are folks who are leading organizations that need an hour with us just to say, um can I just tell you what's going on in my head without having to worry that it's going to go anywhere else but me and you?
00:44:43
Speaker
You sure can. And that is so valuable for that yeah leader in the organization to have that place to do it. And there may it may come with tears, it may come with strain, but it needs to come out somewhere. And we're I'm excited to see us continue to be able to sort of develop that end of support structure along with all the tactical and transformative stuff we're already doing.
00:45:05
Speaker
i have I have never had somebody um ah articulate part of what they do, you know, or at least qualify it in that way. That's simply a, ah it's it's it's it's like it's like friend as a service, um you know? it's ah it's It's, you know, obviously it's' it's not, it's more than that, right? It's yeah it's not so so superficial or or artificial, um but but it's it's so it's so needed. it's yeah It's such a gap right now. And the fact that you're doing that, I think is really, um it's it's impressive. It's admirable. It's an admirable. It's impressive.
00:45:50
Speaker
Thank you. And kind of brings me to my last question. I always like to ask this one If a leader is coming up to you, right, and and they want some advice on how to truly get it right when it comes to doing right by their people or or whether it's using ah HR tech, right, or or some kind of change management or just improving overall culture within their organization.
00:46:11
Speaker
And you're in an elevator up to the top floor. And before that door opens and they walk right out the door, what is that one thing that you tell them to make sure it lands? Appropriate honesty.
00:46:24
Speaker
Appropriate honesty. Not everybody has to know everything. You're dropping some bombs today, John. I'm really liking this.
00:46:37
Speaker
Appropriate honesty. Not everybody has to know everything, but they should know something. and And when you're the leader and you and those elevator doors open at that top floor and you walk out amongst the people, um they should have a sense when they see you of...
00:46:55
Speaker
um I know what's happening. I know that the person who's just walking through um the cubicle area right now is telling me what's going on. And I also know that that person is telling me what I need to know.
00:47:08
Speaker
I don't want to burden everybody with everything. You don't want to be the person stopping everyone to say, gosh, it's so hard running this company. My gosh, we're down. That's not what I'm saying. That's why appropriate comes in the front of the word honesty.
00:47:20
Speaker
But you do need to have a few within your organization that you can close the door and sit with and say, I'm nervous about what's happening with tariffs. I'm nervous about what's happening with the economy. I'm nervous about interest rates and and our accessibility towards money. I'm nervous about the lack of private of ah venture capital um or PE e funding that that is coming into these kinds of organizations. I'm nervous about that. Can we sit and talk about someone needs to hear you say it?
00:47:51
Speaker
Yeah, because they're already thinking it. John, i i owe you a debt of gratitude. Thank you so much for speaking with me today. i appreciate you taking all the time to chat.
00:48:02
Speaker
Thanks for having me. It was awesome. Really appreciate it. It was. It was a fun. And thank you to all of you who are watching or listening to this episode of Mustard Hub Voices Behind the Build. Subscribe, like, share, comment.
00:48:15
Speaker
ah Be sure to check us out at mustardhub.com to see how we help companies become destinations for workplace happiness and turn culture into a competitive edge. and sign up to get started with Mustard Hub for free while you're there. Until next time.