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Episode 8: Student Engagement
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This month, host Stuart Norton is joined by Tom Lowe from the University of Westminster, Dr David Gilani from Middlesex University, Inca Hide-Wright from Warwick Students' Union and co-host Vic Stephenson to talk about Student Engagement.
They discuss the best ways to measure engagement, the importance of adapting to your institutional context, and of course their top tip for academics looking to develop their practice on student engagement.
There is also a controversial entrant to the Edu-biscuit section, let us know in the comments if it deserves a place on the leaderboard!
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Transcript
Introduction to Student Success Pod
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to our podcast, Student Success Pod. I'm your host, Stuart Norton, and here we discuss the core thematic areas of student success. Please do remember to follow the series to make sure you stay up to date with new episodes and activity related to student success.
00:00:26
Speaker
Today, we have three fabulous guests from across the sector um talking to us about student engagement.
Guest Introductions
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm delighted to be joined by my co-host, senior consultant Vic Stevenson, who I shall hand over to now to introduce our introduce our guest. Vic, over to you.
00:00:40
Speaker
Thanks Stuart and welcome everybody. um So we are joined today by um our three colleagues from across the HE sector. we've We've got Tom Lowe, who is the Principal Lecturer and Assistant Head of School um at the University of Westminster and his work focuses on student experience.
00:01:00
Speaker
and Tom's been involved in researching, designing and implementing initiatives aimed at supporting student engagement for over a decade in a number of UK universities,
00:01:11
Speaker
He's also advised higher education institutions internationally on a range of areas, including student voice, retention, employability and student partnership. Tom's also say published two books on student engagement, both of which are available from reputable booksellers.
00:01:28
Speaker
So welcome to you, Tom. Thank you. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Great. And the next ah our next ah guest is David Gilani, who is the head of student engagement and advocacy at Middlesex University and David's interest in student engagement and student voice dates back to his early career as a student union officer.
00:01:50
Speaker
ah David founded the Student Publication Association which supports student du journalists in the UK and Ireland and he founded that in 2012 and he also leads the Association of Higher Education Professionals Student Experience and Engagement Network and that is a mouthful but welcome to you David.
00:02:10
Speaker
Thanks for having me And our final ah guest today is Inka Hyde-Wright, who is a Warwick graduate management trainee, and she is currently on placement at the at the student union at Warwick.
00:02:26
Speaker
Inka is a recent graduate from Warwick and is the lead the student lead rather on the University of Warwick's Belonging Project. She's contributed to a publication on co-creation,
00:02:37
Speaker
and has also contributed to a number of student engagement initiatives with Advance HE, including being part of the student panel at the 2024 Teaching and Learning Conference and sharing her insights on her experience of assessment as a neurodiverse student as part of our assessment and feedback symposium. So a warm welcome and welcome back to you, Inka.
00:03:01
Speaker
Thank you. It's great to be here. Thank you so much.
EduBiscuit Segment
00:03:04
Speaker
Listeners by now be familiar that the first thing we do is just discover whether our guests are dunkers and what their favourite biscuit is. Listeners new to the series, this is the famous EduBiscuit section of the podcast.
00:03:16
Speaker
So while today is serving up fresh takes and crunchy insights on student engagement in higher education and talking about what it really means to connect, involve and inspire, it wouldn't be the podcast it is today without our biscuit fact to get us started.
00:03:29
Speaker
And of course, finding out our guests' favourite biscuit and if they're a dunker or not. so Regular listeners will know that the chocolate hobnob remains the academics favourite, at least of our guests. But in a recent, extremely unscientific but heartfelt student poll, the most popular biscuit was the chocolate digestive, with the hobnob actually coming in fifth place.
00:03:48
Speaker
I'll leave that fact there, but perhaps a reminder to all all academics and professional service staff listening to have a pack of both in the office drawers. Regardless, both of these are easy to dunk and seemingly hard to hate, just like a well-designed seminar.
00:04:01
Speaker
So stick with us whilst we explore what true engagement tastes like and no crumbs are left behind. Now, I do have an apology to make to my co-host, to Vic, because I admonished Vic last time when she gave her Kit Kat as her favourite biscuit, because the Kit Kat is indeed a biscuit, although i do i do still find them in the chocolate aisle rather than the biscuit aisle. so So Vic's a heartfelt apology for calling you out in the and the last podcast incorrectly.
00:04:25
Speaker
I did point out it was 90% wafer. There's no way that's a chocolate biscuit.
00:04:31
Speaker
But then no you really did make me doubt myself. Well, I'm going to come back to you, Vix. I'm going to push you for a second favourite as you're back on the podcast. I have one. Vix, start us off. Why not? Okay. So, am obviously a second to the the Mighty Kit Kat.
00:04:47
Speaker
I recently rediscovered the Viennese biscuit, which I don't know if I hadn't seen it for years. And my son came back with ah from school with a packet and they are the ones that are like ah two oblongs of shortbread with a kind of chocolate little bit in the middle.
00:05:05
Speaker
And it was and i i don't think I'd had one for about 35 years. And it was it took me back and I thought that instantly I thought that is my biscuit of choice for this particular podcast.
00:05:19
Speaker
There you go. And can ask, Vic, did you dunk it? I didn't. No. I don't know that shortbread has got any place in tea. I don't know.
00:05:30
Speaker
ah Tom, I'm going to come to you next. Your favourite biscuit and are you a dunker? Thanks so much, Stuart. I was not prepared at all for this conversation today. I hadn't heard this part of the podcast. However, and i was definitely going to say the chocolate hobnob. That is definitely the best biscuit because it's durable.
00:05:44
Speaker
And of course, you want anything with chocolate on top. and I'm definitely not a donker though. I don't even need a plate. The biscuit's gone before I've even got back to my desk. So I'm very impatient. So um I don't mess around at all.
00:05:57
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you very much, Tom. Inca, can I come to you next, please? Yeah, I'm kind of thinking it would have been interesting to do this podcast when i was a student last year because I'm like, what do i chase would I have chosen digestive? Because now I'm thinking hobnob.
00:06:10
Speaker
So i'm like, what what's changed in a year? um But yeah, I'm also with the chocolate hobnob. But I think the tackling in Tom's problem is you have two biscuits so you can eat one on the way to then wherever you're going. Love it.
00:06:25
Speaker
The difference is I do like to dunk it. yeah that' fantastic let's be honest honest everybody when they open their biscuits out they get one from the top eat it there and then grab their ones for their plate yeah yeah of course yeah it's the journey biscuit the journey biscuit i i'm just pausing because i'm thinking if if only i could just take two from the packet that's probably where i'm going wrong it's so it's certainly more than two but we'll move swiftly on david are you a dunker and what is your favorite biscuit Oh, if you thought Vic's contribution of the Kit Kat was controversial, I'm afraid need to push the boundaries for us today, folks. because
00:06:59
Speaker
Okay, so I don't really do sweet treats. I'm a savoury kind of person. So I've been pondering, what does the savoury alternative of the biscuit and the day-to-day-to-day look like? And the the closest I've come up with, and I don't think you're going to be happy with either of these, are the cheese twist.
00:07:16
Speaker
Dunking, not in a tea, that would be weird, but maybe in some hummus or some sort of material. You're destroying me. We're pushing boundaries now, aren't we? Could we agree that pretzels are basically at heart a biscuit?
00:07:29
Speaker
I think we could maybe have a discussion. Okay, yeah, yeah. think maybe the pretzel, we can open that one up. The cheese twist, I think we might have to draw the line. I mean, hummus still is a liquid because it forms the shape of the shape it's been poured into. It is, it is. I don't think any of this, security does it replace a tea break?
00:07:48
Speaker
I don't want a brew. I'll have a pot of hummus and cheese sticks instead. I think that's quite drying, actually. Yeah, you need a lot of tea to to wash that down.
00:08:00
Speaker
Well, I honestly thought we were never going to get any more controversial than the Jaffa cake from episode one. But here we have cheese, twist and hummus. And I think on that note, it's probably time that we talk about student success.
00:08:11
Speaker
um
Perspectives on Student Engagement
00:08:12
Speaker
Today, we're here talking about student engagement. And we we we typically like to start with a definition. So I think a round robin is in order. um and and And if we could ask you to sum it up, what does it mean to you? What does it mean to you in your context?
00:08:26
Speaker
um David, I'm going to ask you to kick us off. Yeah, sure. i the The one word that comes to mind for me when I'm thinking of student engagement is motivation. It's understanding why are students at university, what they want to get out of their time at university.
00:08:40
Speaker
It's about the ways in which that is intrinsic, you know, the pleasure they get just in the process of participating in their learning. um and how there's also various bits of extrinsic motivation, kind of the value they're placing on the degree, the value they're placing on what they're going to get kind of at the end of the journey.
00:08:55
Speaker
think the better we can understand students' motivations, the better we're going to get a chance to make sure that their aspirations for engaging are matching up with what we're trying to get out of them as people supporting students. Fantastic. Yes, I like that.
00:09:09
Speaker
Tom. um So this is a really interesting question to fit it into one word, but the word I'm going to go for is relevance. um And not that that defines student engagement, but that is the word that's coming up again and again and again when we're holding discussions around in getting people, and those people are students, to engage with something, which is the university.
00:09:29
Speaker
And we're in a world that's full of communications, full of ways we can engage with things on our smartphone, for our devices, everything as well as trying to engage with us.
00:09:41
Speaker
And therefore we choose what to engage with based on what's most relevant to us in that busy space. So relevance, um I'll probably come back to that later on as well. I like it.
00:09:51
Speaker
I like it. Yeah, it's a really important way to start thinking about things. Inca. The word that I thought about was power, because I thought about um how powerful it can be when you feel like you can or you're encouraged to or you're unable to be engaged as a student, but also how powerful it can be when students disengage.
00:10:12
Speaker
um So, yeah, that was kind of the word that jumped to mind. though It's nice also to hear the different words because I can i can understand why you said each of them. um And i guess it just shows just how multifaceted it is and that there isn't just one way of supporting student engagement.
00:10:30
Speaker
um But, yeah, so I kind of thought of power.
00:10:35
Speaker
okay And Vic, not going to escape. What did you come up with? So I really struggle because I sort of came up with a sort of image of of what I thought engagement looked like rather than really being able to kind of pin down a word. And when I was trying to think of a word, I realised I was actually coming up with synonyms for engagement, like participation and things like that just is a synonym.
00:10:58
Speaker
So I think I would like to frame it as kind of what I think it isn't. And that, because to me, there's a very clear word, which is attendance. And I think for me, yeah, I find it easier to define an engagement by what it's not because it can be lots and lots of different things.
00:11:16
Speaker
But to me, it's not about um attendance, which is kind of a ah an issue. I think I've come ah come across where you're looking at initiatives and there's lots of things, but it's measured by, you you know, did people turn up?
00:11:30
Speaker
Kind of are people there? And there's that kind of that. that sense of driving students back onto campus. And if they're on campus, then they're engaged. And I just, I think that's possibly problematic.
00:11:42
Speaker
So an opposite answer to your question, which is a great start.
00:11:49
Speaker
So the they the question, really well, I'd like to kind of really pick up on on the that point around um attendance and whether or not, you know, when we talk about engagement, it obviously means lots of different things.
00:12:02
Speaker
to students, to staff, to institutions and to them individually. and But institutions are really keen to capture student engagement as a kind of measured metric.
00:12:13
Speaker
And I'm interested to see whether you you all think measuring engagement is a possible and be a worthwhile endeavor.
Measuring Student Engagement
00:12:24
Speaker
I don't know who wants to to go to that first. i'll I'll go to Tom because he is nodding.
00:12:28
Speaker
Thank you. and So um there's lots of ways that we can judge whether a student is engaged or not. And some of those are where we're in when we're physically in the room um and some of those are digitally.
00:12:39
Speaker
and So there's different categories of student engagement. And the one you've referred to there is attendance, which is probably the most commonly used and him most historically used measure of engagement of whether a student is engaged or not.
00:12:52
Speaker
And then we make judgments off the back of that measure of engagement of whether they're more likely to succeed or not. So, for example, a child in school, if they turn up each week, the school is reassured that they're doing OK.
00:13:03
Speaker
And if they stop turning up, the parents get a telephone call or the child gets in trouble or so because there's a legal requirement to be in school. So therefore, we take that understanding to university, even though there's a move from students at pre-18 education in the UK, it's a illegal you legally have to be there without or you have to apply not to be there for homeschooling.
00:13:22
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, the students go to laissez faire education, which is completely voluntary, where students can pick and choose what they want to engage with unless they're an international student. But we inherit those worries or those, let's say, stereotypes or biases towards if you're in the room, you must be engaged because you're in the room and therefore you're more likely to succeed. However, as human beings, we've all been in or as professionals on the call, we've all been in meetings where we might have been in the room, but it doesn't mean we're engaged. um And also, even if we're actively listening, so we've we've all been in the room too, where we've been nodding like, yes, I'm very clearly listening.
00:13:57
Speaker
but it doesn't mean we're necessarily engaged. So there's other areas of engagement that aren't just behavioral. And i guess the attendance one is based on presenteeism. So I'll just quickly say, you know, we can talk about engagement, yes, in regards to behavioral, which is whether you're coming to campus, whether you're going in the library, whether you're attending class.
00:14:15
Speaker
We can also look at behavioral in regards to digital engagement. So that's whether students are clicking, downloading, whether students are submitting their assessments. There's perhaps other ways we talk about engagement too, which are just as important. And I perhaps would challenge listeners and those on call to say, behavioural is perhaps only a third or 25% of the cake of engagement.
00:14:35
Speaker
There's other areas too, such as emotional engagement. That's how students feel. Are they invested or not? Do they feel like they belong or not? Do they feel like they're the opposite of those things? Like they feel alienated or that they they don't belong or they're unhappy Then there's cognitive engagement, so how much students learn and whether they understand the learning outcomes.
00:14:52
Speaker
We do measure that for assessment, but not always. and And then finally, we talk about student engagement a lot in the UK in regards to student voice. So I think by highlighting how many ways we can assess whether a student is engaged or not, all the ways we're talking about engagement, attendance is perhaps the easiest one to measure because we traditionally always measured it.
00:15:15
Speaker
And perhaps it's an easy go-to because you think, well, that's where the learning takes place in the class. But these days, learning and knowledge happens in all different spaces. So I'll stop now. I'm keen to see what Inka and David think.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Tom. Some really interesting points there around kind of international students and requirements and expectations for them as opposed to to um home students and and the different types of engagement. Absolutely.
00:15:38
Speaker
And in terms of measuring them, I think the the criticism issue I have is that some of the student engagement initiatives that, you know, their success is measured by did people join them? Did they, you know, and and I feel like that's, as as you said, only part of the picture because people can turn up, do the breakfast club, leave. It doesn't mean they've learned that that's kind of developed their sense of belonging or anything else.
00:16:05
Speaker
So I think it's, yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting one. I'll pass over to Inka though to see what you think about, you know, in your experience, How do you find that institutions are very keen to see it as like, yes, we've we've cracked engagement because we got x number of students to to join this and and or am I oversimplifying?
00:16:27
Speaker
No, i think I think it's really interesting. um And also, Tom, when you were talking about like digital, like engaging digitally, I got flashbacks of doing seminars in COVID and and online and no one had their cameras on. So, you know, and that could be that they're disengaged, but actually it might just be they're engaging a different way.
00:16:44
Speaker
i know that during COVID, i had I had to have my camera on to keep myself engaged because it was like that accountability, like someone can see whether I'm doing something else. Otherwise, if I had my camera off,
00:16:54
Speaker
I would be doing something else because I would just, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have that accountability. So straight away, i was like, oh my word. Yeah. Bring back those memories. um But I think, I think also, think what I find really interesting is, yeah. Okay. We can measure it in terms of attendance or,
00:17:11
Speaker
participation but it's like why you know why have they engaged or why haven't they engaged and I think so often when students haven't engaged people think oh we must put on something else and it's like no actually maybe look at what you are doing wipe some of it out because actually if you're just putting on more and more and more funnily enough students are just going to get more and more overwhelmed it's kind of like comms channels it's like all right let's let's try and access them this way and this way and this way and it's like hang on Maybe think about toning it down a little bit because there is so such a thing as overwhelming. Also, that's even more work for staff.
00:17:46
Speaker
um So i do find I do think it's possible to measure student engagement, but I think it also touches upon saying that has been said earlier in terms of, I guess it's what category of engagement, like what are you specifically looking for?
00:17:58
Speaker
Why are you measuring it? How are you measuring it? And what's that going to be used for? Like, don't just measure it for the sake of measuring it. Use it for a purpose. um but and And also just don't rely on numbers. Like, have a conversation with your students. Even, like, if you're trying to reach those that aren't engaged, still chat to the ones who are engaged and see if they so if they know why maybe some people might not be turning up or or try and go to them if you know that oh actually know what they tend to use this space more go to that space don't necessarily expect them to come to you um especially if say like there is you know if say there are part-time students it might be that you know what they do come to campus um or they come online to do their seminars and then they leave
00:18:41
Speaker
So making the most of that time, making the most of the time that you do have them with. um Yeah, those are kind of my thoughts as as people were talking. um But yeah, I find it a very interesting topic because ah think also it's, I know the times when I haven't engaged and why, and it's not necessarily because I haven't wanted to It's been been because I haven't felt included or it's been, remember, I remember,
00:19:06
Speaker
before I knew was dyslexic, um they would give a set like reading in the seminar and while I couldn't read fast enough, never mind digest the information quick enough, so therefore I couldn't engage how I wanted to um and luckily i was able to actually speak to like raise it at a student staff liaison committee and say please can we have this beforehand and then they changed it which was lovely and great but if I hadn't been a student who felt able to do that you know, you're going to have a lot of people not engaging when actually they really want to.
00:19:39
Speaker
um so yeah, lots to talk about. that's pretty Yes, absolutely. And there's some some great points i want to bring I want to come back to around engagement. We've looked at, of thought thought about engagement and attendance, but i think engagement and belonging, ah as you just mentioned, part time students there and kind of does that.
00:19:59
Speaker
does Zingham engaging mean that they belong, do they want to belong? Is it, you know, there's lots that we can we can pull apart there, but I'll come to David on that, to the the original question, which I hope you can remember.
00:20:12
Speaker
I can't, oh just dev about, I think my answer might even lead us potentially into that connection between belonging and engagement. Even better. yeah so to go back to the original question, is it possible to measure engagement?
00:20:25
Speaker
No. Is
Challenges in Measuring Engagement
00:20:26
Speaker
it worthwhile? Yes. So, I think any attempt for us to really measure engagement will always just capture proxies. And think, as Tom said, you'll get things which are easy to measure.
00:20:37
Speaker
And therefore, the biggest risk is that we think we've got the whole answer when really we've just got a piece of the puzzle. So I think there's something about recognising that and therefore not resting on our laurels, but seeing it as something as a continuous improvement of understanding what the experience is really like for students.
00:20:53
Speaker
But I do still still think it's worthwhile. and I know that when we've done analysis of just attendance, like not even looking at other engagement touch points like the digital ah usage of our virtual learning environment or the student app or students taking out library resources, but mean even if you just look at attendance, there is a very strong correlation between student attendance and those who've progressed through their years of study.
00:21:18
Speaker
And that I think is something which is therefore a good reason that it's worth looking at that data, not as an endpoint of these students good, these students bad. But as Inka said, know asking the questions once you've got that data, what are the conversations that you can start with the students who aren't attending to work out why that is?
00:21:37
Speaker
um And you know the research that comes out shows that there are a myriad of reasons why different students will choose to spend their valuable time in other ways than going to a particular session they've got in their timetable.
00:21:48
Speaker
But I think at least if you can start to work out who to ask those questions to, you get a better chance to be able to do things about it, both in terms of the big structural changes, some modules which have just been set up in a way where the content of that material just completete isn't as engaging as students are finding on other modules, to individual delivery of sessions, to just personal things that are going on in one student's life, which means they just had more important things to prioritise at that point in time.
00:22:15
Speaker
So I think it is still really valuable, but kind of as I think both Tom and Ankur have said in different ways, it's an easy starting point. So we've got to keep that in mind as what it can lead to in terms of helpful conversations.
00:22:28
Speaker
But I know that from our own context at Middlesex University, there are plenty of ways to then have valuable conversations based on that data. And it's about being able to then help focus and target those personalized interventions, which are either had through academic advisors or in some cases, peer to peer work or kind of other professional services staff, hopefully in a way where they're able to, you know,
00:22:53
Speaker
know how to start the conversation a bit better than just knowing you've got this many tens of thousands of students in the overall population, support all of them equally. So I think it is helpful as an initial guiding tool.
00:23:05
Speaker
Can I just come in there, David? You said something which really resonated with me, which was in terms of students having to prioritise different things, and you know, what's important to them at that time. And I think this ties into to to our next question, really, which is, you know,
00:23:20
Speaker
just There is no single student. and We know that a range of students have a huge amount of responsibilities, whether that's working, you know, one, two, three, four jobs, whether that's caring responsibilities, whether it's a home student or someone that's commuting and traveling. and And there's so much that kind of wraps up into that alongside that we have part-time students, full-time students, distance learning, hybrid, high flex, all these different variations.
00:23:48
Speaker
so So what do you see as the, opportunities and challenges around student engagement. As you say, you've got 10,000 students, it's not the same for everyone, but we do have all those different pockets within that. So
Engaging a Diverse Student Body
00:23:59
Speaker
so so where do our listeners go?
00:24:02
Speaker
ah For me, I think that the challenge is to not see there being something problematic about, on the one hand, appreciating the widening participation efforts of higher education and the fact that we have more diverse populations.
00:24:14
Speaker
And on the other hand, still recognising that communities only work if there's some form of shared values or complementary characteristics. We've got to do something to be able to say, yes, in this particular module or programme, we have a wider variety and diversity of students than perhaps we've ever had before.
00:24:33
Speaker
And that's brilliant for of the benefits that brings. But at the same time, if we don't talk with students about some form of shared expectations of what it means to contribute to this learning community, then I do think things start to fall apart.
00:24:46
Speaker
When we were doing some research um around student belonging and student engagement, One of the things that came through as a theme in some of the comments from students was how disappointing it was when they were still turning up and engaging, but they noticed other peers stopping engaging. it kind of devalued their own worth of putting in that time and effort.
00:25:05
Speaker
It meant that when they did go along to classes, there wasn't that same rich discussion with lots of students contributing. So I think there is something about the social contract, perhaps you want to call it that, they you know communicating with students what we're expecting of them, recognizing that everyone is going to have a different set of barriers, which means it's not the same for everyone. you know The ability for a student who lives in halls accommodation just off campus, who is well supported by their family financially, so they don't have to work a part-time job, know basically a full-time job in terms of the hours they do it for, versus a student who is doing that part-time work and commuting a long way.
00:25:39
Speaker
The challenge to say to both of them, we expect you to up for classes and contribute is very different. And so we do have to be able recognise that. But my fear is that as a sector, we pull away from having those conversations with students and putting the, I suppose, you know, what is the expectation? What's the responsibility that we're giving to students? and If we don't have the conversation, my fear is that we'll just leave it to each student to work it out for themselves. And that's where you will use that social connection. hmm.
00:26:06
Speaker
Well, yeah, we'll come to Tom, because I ah i was going to make a point about the earlier point Tom made around international students and the requirements for them are different.
00:26:16
Speaker
And that can lead to, as you say, if they they turn up to an empty room, that's that's not that's not the student experience that they have come. into the into the country to experience. So, sorry, I'll pass over to Tom because know you're looking to pick and and And I know topics we're going to later go on to what has changed with higher education. And I think I really like David's point and Stuart, what you've said around there's not one kind of student.
00:26:39
Speaker
and It's so easy for policymakers or even staff to homogenize students, like they're all one kind of individual or being and they all behave in the same way. Essentially, when you look in like England, for example, 45% plus or 49% plus students going on to higher education, this is just half the 18-year-old population. They are not all the same person. They are just as diverse as wider population. We would never say all 50-year-olds in the country behave the same as the same individual. No, they're not. So we are really guilty of homogenizing this whole group of students and assuming they're
00:27:12
Speaker
up to the same kind of activities and they engage in a certain way. For example, there is still ah a really historic perception that stands in universities where staff will say students aren't turning up, they're all lazy or students aren't turning up, they're all working. They're probably more the latter in terms of more of those students are working.
00:27:28
Speaker
Actually, these are human beings and people behaving in ways in a hyper engaged society where there's so many things pulling on their time. And as the advanced age research has recently highlighted in the student experience survey,
00:27:41
Speaker
or the academic experience survey, that those students are working more and more. So we do know that from big studies. I think the opportunities are we've really got to do what David said and look really hard at ourselves as universities as well.
00:27:53
Speaker
because if ah And so the national studies looking at prospective students have said, would you prefer an online education or an in-person education? And those national studies, I think I've seen about five different ones, have all come back saying students want an in-person education.
00:28:05
Speaker
Cool, tick. Students are coming in huge numbers to universities still, tick. So we're doing something right. So students are coming, but then what's happening by October, November time, student attendance is going down and down. And actually...
00:28:17
Speaker
That negative of one student not turning up, then another starts to catalyze because the point David said is, right, I've come to class, and no one else is here, so I'm not going to bother coming next week he either. So this is really urgent, actually, that we look at what are these engagement preferences changing? Because you're right, international students, Vic, are in this picture, but they're told legally, if you don't attend, you're going to risk your visa status.
00:28:38
Speaker
So I think we've got to have a really hard look at ourselves of what we're asking students come in for. And if it's still relevant, so often the language can be, how can we support students more?
00:28:49
Speaker
How can we ensure our timetable is better for students? How can we make sure students are motivated to engage? Sometimes we've got to flip it and say, well, what are we asking students to engage with? So I don't like saying our students are consumers, but they are engagers and it's got to be relevant and worth their time.
00:29:05
Speaker
So I think it's quite interesting to say, well, actually, well, students aren't engaging. How can we get them to engage more? Actually, what are we trying to engage students with? And as is this even deemed relevant or worth their time?
00:29:16
Speaker
Or are we being engaging enough to engage students? so I think it's it's tricky. Assuming that we are. And just to to come to to David's point, and I'd like to ask Inca, the the the point you made there around ah some kind of social contract. you know you You've signed up, you've agreed to be a student, you've been granted a place.
00:29:36
Speaker
do you think that would be ah thats that would be a ah viable thing? And how would you how would you feel about something like that,
Balancing Responsibilities and Studies
00:29:42
Speaker
Inca? Do you think it would help sort clarify expectations and requirements across the board? Or do you think some would respond, you know, quite fiercely in the opposite direction, as Tom said, bearing in mind they are consumers and and kind of being told to do something as if it's a school environment.
00:30:02
Speaker
It's a really challenging balance to find so I'm just interested in your perspective Inca yeah I think so I remember sitting like in first year um so 2019 thinking I sitting at lecture i I'd hear maybe someone going like next to me going oh I'm not interested interested in this and straight away I'd kind of think oh I I was interested but oh is it not interesting like And so definitely being influenced by other people around me or, um you know, say someone's having a snooze in the corner, it's like, oh, okay um
00:30:37
Speaker
You know, and but then I think that's why I almost found freeing about COVID was i didn't I was literally not sat next to anyone. and So I was like, actually, know what, I'm just going to be interested in what I'm interested in.
00:30:50
Speaker
And I realised that's only my experience. So don't generalise, obviously. But I found that really freeing. And I think also with being late diagnosed with dyslexia, i was like, oh, you know what? I can pause things. I can rewind. I can make proper notes and take time to digest information at my own pace.
00:31:08
Speaker
So that enabled me to engage a lot more there and but equally made me panic a lot when we went back to face to face because like oh my goodness I've basically done my whole degree online how am going to cope with in-person lectures um but then that's where like um having things in advance really really helps uh I could look at the lecture slides and then just during I can just make quick notes and it means that I can still engage um But I think then um for my master's, ah you know, i was very, very fortunate that I got the Warwick Torts scholarship scheme, which meant that my tuition fees were covered. Otherwise, there's no way ever I'd be able to do a master's.
00:31:48
Speaker
So I was very fortunate in that regard. But um ah at the time, the but The reason why I got that scholarship is because I ticked a huge number of whining participation boxes.
00:32:00
Speaker
So I was a commuting student. I was a disabled student. I had caring responsibilities. So I had a lot of things. And i I think the thing is, I knew going into my master's that my master's, I wanted to make the most of it, but it wasn't a priority.
00:32:14
Speaker
And the nicest sense, you know, my care my caring responsibilities were my priority. And I remember I tried to kind of hide the fact that I had really heavy caring responsibilities. I'd come onto campus, I'd do my seminars, I'd go home.
00:32:28
Speaker
and I'd do my uni work around around what I needed to do at home. um And that meant working of the weekends and all those kind of things, which, fine, I did what I needed to do.
00:32:40
Speaker
But I remember later on when I was working on my dissertation and... um and so one of the teaching staff um ah just being really frank finally being really frank and just saying in all honesty this isn't my top priority and they they were kind of they were a little bit concerned by that like oh but uh no but you want to make the most I'm like no I will make the most of it I am making the most of it it's just these are my priorities and that's okay and know it might be that oh, okay, don't necessarily get the top marks in everything, but you know what? I'm going to make the most of the experience.
00:33:16
Speaker
um And so I think, and that looks different for everyone. And I think i think what makes me sad is when people want to engage, but there's so many kind of systemic or structural barriers or social barriers that mean that they can't engage and and they they're really wanting to, but because they're hitting that wall after wall after wall,
00:33:37
Speaker
then they just kind of give up. And that makes me sad because I think like with the some of the blowing work that I've been doing, it's like, right, okay, we've done loads of work in terms of practice, which has been fantastic, but it's like, right, let's all like let's keep supporting the practice element, but let's also really look at those underlying structural issues because we can do all the practice in the world, but if we're ignoring the other things,
00:34:06
Speaker
we're not going to make those lasting changes. We don't want to keep slapping plasters on things. So, um yeah, I think I've definitely gone off on a tangent, but I think it's just such a complex, complex beast that is student engagement. And I guess one of things that I think is a massive opportunity with how students students are accessing resources accessing their education is the opportunity to learn like students have an opportunity to learn staff have an opportunity to learn to adapt to try new approaches new technology ah develop new resources uh work with a more diverse audience i mean i i find that really exciting because like oh you get to hear all these different perspectives all these different experiences that
00:34:54
Speaker
i haven't I don't know about, but it means that I get to grow as well as and they get to grow. um But yeah, I think differing priorities is a challenge, but only maybe ah big challenge when it's not spoken about.
00:35:11
Speaker
Do you think
Pre-arrival Questionnaires
00:35:12
Speaker
the use of a pre-arrival questionnaire, or, you know, that there is a lot of work around kind of the pre-arrival questionnaire that came out of the University of East London and and Michelle Morgan and and that work,
00:35:24
Speaker
Do you think that yeah gives valuable insights? Or I'm just wondering if if kind of institutions have kind of established approaches and initiative and initiatives and ways of working that that maybe it needs to be kind of, it needs to be constantly adapting based on kind of what information you're getting about who you're coming in, have who you have coming in, because it can be quite difficult so to put these things in place while you've got a cohort,
00:35:51
Speaker
going on you know sorry Tom you wanted to up absolutely say any information the more information we have on our students coming in in regards to their motivations as David started talking out and talking about as Inca's just talking around in and regards to what willingness of students are willing to share about their personal lives is all really empowering and I think that information shouldn't just be at the top university management committee if appropriate and obviously if people have signed the right Disclosures to have that shared, that information is really powerful for an educator.
00:36:20
Speaker
So if you're an educator in the room and you know what kind of students you have in front of you, not to make negative stereotypes, but to make empowering stereotypes that can say, well, I know, for example, i have X amount of students who are commuters, or I know that I have certain students of certain learning needs in my room, or I know the motivation.
00:36:38
Speaker
So one of the prior and pre-enrollment study and questions are often asked as part of career services, why have you picked this degree or what you want to do with your degree?
00:36:48
Speaker
So the more we know in beforehand will make us far more empathetic educators because we'll be essentially pitching to the audience. so I would say absolutely yes, but right down to the lecturer level. So we know who is in the room because historically in universities, we've done so much after experience feedback. So we do end of experience evaluations like the NSS or end of module evaluations, which are helpful, but I find they're more moving towards performance evaluation of staff actually, or module um success evaluations, as opposed to improving learning. and And so I think absolutely anything we could do and not just pre-arrival,
00:37:26
Speaker
and That information, if we can have that, and I'm saying that a lot to staff when I talk to staff about belonging, is get to know your students. I mean, we say that anyway for relationship building, and rapport building. But when you understand who you're speaking with, who you're educating students the more you know, the better and you can build your rapport up.
00:37:42
Speaker
Yes. And sharing it with students. Be more engaging. Yeah. and and And sharing it with students, as you as you're saying, it kind of making sure that students who complete that that pre-arrival survey then get to know that actually...
00:37:55
Speaker
40% of this cohort are working or are commuting so they they kind of see and that's why we've designed it in this way so that we can accommodate this so maybe it's it's sort of there's transparency there but also you know it goes a long way to building community when students don't sit there thinking I'm the only one who's who's in this particular situation so uh I think like my my worry with that is, I can see the power of it, but my worry is that people are like, right, yeah I've got the information at the beginning, therefore that that's me set. And it's like, you've got to leave room for emergence because there are going to constantly be students who find out, you know, they're going through a diagnosis process or you know, they find out during their that that module or that year or whatever, or, know, something awful happens and they suddenly become a carer or,
00:38:46
Speaker
or Yeah, so I think I can see the power of it, but it's also leaving room for emergence and understanding that you still don't know everything and being open to that. And I think also um it does so heavily depend on the staff and how they interpret that information. And you're not always going to have empathetic educators. You're not. um So I think it is being careful with that information. Like, yeah, and I know you said being sensitive with it and it's not only if people disclose, which obviously is massively important.
00:39:16
Speaker
But I think, yeah, it's, it's, I guess, I guess some of it also comes down to how, how psychologically safe are we making the learning environments as well? Because, um yeah, because then if we are creating those spaces in terms of,
00:39:34
Speaker
you know, each learning space is a space where you can come up to the lecturer or have it or contact them afterwards and say, hey, I'm really struggling with this. um Yeah, so I guess creating space for that emergence.
00:39:48
Speaker
um Yeah. You're absolutely right, Inker, and it's so dependent on the individual. And when I talk about student voice, I say student voice doesn't start the survey or the student representative. It starts with the ability for a student to come up to you and talk to you.
00:40:00
Speaker
This is so much easier in school or in the workplace because in school you have one teacher, let's say primary school for a whole year, so you can really build up rapport. and support so much contact time. And then in the workplace, you have one line manager, so it's easier because you've got that consistency. In university, you might be exposed to eight plus academics in one semester. So it's really hard to to build that up. And absolutely, all of these recommendations we're making, we have to do at scale. So myself, David and Inka are university staff members who really care about student engagement. I hope we do a good job.
00:40:31
Speaker
But we've got to expand that over thousands of staff at our universities. So it's that's also a challenge. It's not just the scale of students, it's scale of staff we're working with too. say So I'll come to David because I know you are you but wanted to come in there.
00:40:44
Speaker
If you can sort of elaborate a bit on how can we support staff then? Because we know that this is critical. it's that It's in the top five things that students care about. And we know it has a massive impact on student-centred belonging and the importance of that.
00:40:59
Speaker
on student experience and outcomes. But exactly to your point where you've got huge numbers of staff who are working under various conditions and the various you know contracts, some of them part time, some are working for multiple institutions.
00:41:15
Speaker
how How can we support staff informing these kind of positive supportive connections i' with students? David, welcome to you. Yeah, I mean,
Automated Action Plans
00:41:25
Speaker
as the following, sorry, the previous conversation, i think pre-arrival questionnaires is a great enabler for that. I think from our experience, at least, if you're asking students to fill out pre-arrival questionnaire at that point, that is a point they are very highly engaged. you know We get 70 plus send response rates for a pre-arrival questionnaire, which you don't get for questionnaires ah later in the student's journey necessarily.
00:41:47
Speaker
Obviously, what's then really important is that you're showing the student that that first investment of their time was useful. so And that doesn't have to take a lot of staff time necessarily. like Obviously, the presenting of that data takes a bit of time to build up, whether that's the right dashboards or how you present for that data to program staff.
00:42:04
Speaker
We've set up ah automated action plans that can go to students. So based on how they fill out the survey, they've got questions where they're saying, oh, actually, I would like to get more information about how I can find a part-time job while I'm studying, or actually, yes, I would like to get involved in ah Students' Union Society, you know, whatever it might be.
00:42:21
Speaker
tailoring that in an automated way, you know, it doesn't take the most expensive system to be able to do something like that, where students are getting some immediate evidence that the the time they invested in that survey is worthwhile, they're getting something useful for it.
00:42:34
Speaker
I think that is kind of really, really important because the worst thing we could do is, and which I think unfortunately does happen a fair bit in the sector, is we see gathering student voice as something which has to be done through like a traditionally very long academic-y survey, which takes a long time to fill out,
00:42:50
Speaker
which then gets amalgamized in terms of what was the top themes that came out of it across the whole student population, which take a long time to be worked through. and it means that individual students just don't really see the the value of the time they committed.
00:43:04
Speaker
I think the more we can challenge ourselves around how much we're asking of students in those processes, in those surveys, and kind of almost trimming out bits to just ask the questions we can really do something about in terms of evidencing what they're giving us.
00:43:18
Speaker
and then dialing up the actual action that takes place after they fill out those questionnaires is really, really important. So yeah, automated action plans is a good way to start with that. And that's something which can be done at scale. you know That doesn't take each individual staff member going through that data and responding.
00:43:33
Speaker
The other thing, I suppose, then going back to the question, which I think was the specific one you asked me to to come to on that. Around support, yeah. Support, how we actually yeah you know support. So staff have got that information, but not all of them will do anything with it.
00:43:47
Speaker
So how do we, you know, how can we support staff in in making sure that they they have the information, they know what to do with it, and and that they are, you know, feeding back to students and making, you know, as you say, showing that there is value in them giving their voice, you know, because otherwise, lots of other initiatives may kind of fall by the wayside if the the kind of message is, we ask you to give us all this information, and we do very little with it.
00:44:14
Speaker
um So how how can we how can we support staff? Yeah, absolutely. So for me, I think there's something about trying to demystify big concepts like engagement or belonging, as the one we talked about earlier in the session has obviously been a huge buzzword in the sector over the last few years.
00:44:33
Speaker
I think there is something which we have a responsibility for in ah taking some of the scariness out of it being such a big multifaceted, multidimensional, dynamic, individualized concept, and just breaking it down to some very practical things that we can all do in any interaction that we have with students. and challenging the idea that we present things like belonging to our professional services, academic staff, students that perform ah part-time work to support the student community.
00:45:03
Speaker
And yeah, move away from the idea of the complicatedness of it and to practical, tangible things we can do to make people feel like they matter when they are showing up so that they feel like it was worth it.
00:45:14
Speaker
And the main things that come through for me over and over again when students talk about this are things about being accessible, having ways for students to communicate with you, to ask questions, and to then respond when they ask those questions, you know, to reply to the emails, basic stuff like that.
00:45:32
Speaker
It's valuing the voices that students have. So it's being able to appreciate when students do make contributions. You take the time to thank them for that and say, okay, well, I'll get back to you later this week on that point. I need to look that up.
00:45:44
Speaker
And it's care, it's it's having high expectations for students to expect stuff from them and to show that we care about their goals, kind of their motivations for studying. I think there's actually something reassuring we could say to staff, which is at least in the research that I've seen, students have a very sensible understanding of the things which are outside of individual staff members control.
00:46:05
Speaker
Students don't tend to blame staff for things like strikes when they don't get to see a staff member for a lecturer or when they're going to just come to the natural end of a semester and the fact that they won't be able to ah necessarily have as much contact time with one staff member who they've built up affinity with.
00:46:23
Speaker
They talk about those changes as sad moments, you know, i've I've built up a really good relationship with this staff member. ah loved having them as my tutor for this. It's a shame I won't have them for next semester. But they understand that's not something in that individual staff members control. and They even, in some of the research I've seen, understand that when some classes have a very high number of students compared to some sessions which are much smaller, it's not going to be necessarily possible for a staff member to know every individual student's name in a huge lecture, but they really appreciate it in the modules where there are those smaller numbers.
00:46:54
Speaker
So I think there's something reassuring about helping staff to understand you don't have to take responsibility for these systemic things outside of your control all of the time. Just focus on the bits you do have control over, which is valuing students' contributions, showing care for their goals and being accessible to their questions when they want to ask staff.
00:47:10
Speaker
It doesn't need to be more complicated than that, I don't think, at least. Yeah. Tom, do you agree? It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. I think that's not true. I think the point of care is really, really important. So um I think...
00:47:23
Speaker
We want staff whose heart is in their education and or staff who want to teach. i think I think it's a brave conversation for us to have as academic managers that actually, you know, this is part of the gig as being an academic in higher education. And it still is.
00:47:39
Speaker
We're honor still on a journey there in university sectors. And I go and speak on student engagement in other nations where maybe... They're not a student centered as a university sector. And there is a lot of separate the wheat from the shaft and students drop out and that's fine.
Shift Towards Student-Centered Practices
00:47:53
Speaker
Students fail because they're not good enough.
00:47:54
Speaker
You know, and and in the UK, that's we're not allowed to practice in that sense where we just let people drop out. And if they can't hack it in our rigid way, then they're not good enough. Actually, that's not OK. You know, we have we've had a good 20, 30 years of looking at accessibility, celebrating diversity.
00:48:11
Speaker
and looking at learning and teaching and good assessment feedback. However, there is still in some perhaps more research-orientated universities or research-orientated teams or research-orientated individuals where they don't see this as a priority of their role.
00:48:27
Speaker
So again, i think there's more work that's needed and maybe that's less work for the um educating, ah so the educators on who are listening, but it's actually the academic managers who are listening to have brave conversations and saying, this is actually a huge portion of your job.
00:48:43
Speaker
For many of us, it's the priority of our job. And actually, it's the reason we are there in our role. So actually, if we aren't going to put the effort in to being engaging, and I get it that it's harder and harder to be engaging in this very noisy world,
00:48:57
Speaker
um but we do need to care about our students. And so the practices are as simple as ah as David highlights, but ensuring people are motivated for that and that we have a culture that's just as focused on student success, students learning, graduate outcomes, as much as ref um is easier said than done in some contexts. I'm sure some listeners will be thinking, okay, I get it, but in this context, I've got staff that I'm moving very slowly and this is a tricky context.
00:49:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think possibly contributing to that so that, we've got academics who have come through educat the the higher education system decades ago, where it was more akin to to the situation you were talking about.
00:49:38
Speaker
you You did an assessment, you didn't get feedback. you You were just taught, you know, there was there was no conversation with an academic, there was no questioning, there was no follow-up or having an informal conversation. It was office hours and you better have a very good reason for going.
00:49:55
Speaker
And, you know, or or not. and And so, you know, ah a shift in mindset there that, you know, that's not that's not what higher education looks like. you know Yes, a day and it and it does differ for nation by nation. And I speak to, and I'm not, you know, stereotyping of a nation's higher education system. I get asked a lot, why is there so much work going on in the UK relating to student engagement?
00:50:15
Speaker
It's because we're in a phenomenally pressured sector. We're pressured by tuition fees, pressured by funding challenges, pressured by student outcomes, be free in England, competition.
00:50:26
Speaker
All of the pressures, if want to improve learning, close awarding gaps, improve belonging, satisfaction, all centers on we've got to make higher education engaging. That's why we're focusing so much on it. And I think I would hazard a guess that majority of nations around the world do not have a higher education sector that's as pressured as ours.
00:50:43
Speaker
Now, the good thing of that is loads of good practices has happened off the back of that. But it's interesting, right? I think it's a really interesting um point. So there's colleagues who may have been to perhaps institutions where engagement was less of a focus, or they may have been educated in a less pressured higher education system, where they may have seen those practices where you don't need to care about students too much.
00:51:04
Speaker
So they feel they're doing nothing wrong. But actually, I think our sector is something we should really celebrate that's come out of that pressure. and that we've got to be, and that we should be celebrating and saying, well, this is part of what it is like to work in our sector. And that is being student-centred.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. I think, sorry, Stuart, did you want to come in? i was just going to ask the kind of the next question around kind of, given that we are under that, you know, it is a huge priority, is it it is an emphasis and a focus as it as it should be.
00:51:33
Speaker
Are you aware of, you know, maybe you can either take it as as, you know, do you think there are initiatives and approaches that are being kind of tried tried out that are kind of not really, that just don't really work or other areas within your own institutions that you think, you know, this is making a really positive impact and this actually, this is what we should all be doing.
00:51:55
Speaker
kind of Because I know there are there's a lot of kind of people trying out lots of different things and and they try it for a term or a semester and then they go, oh, that didn't work. They try something else. Kind of, it's it's it is a real challenge because everyone's trying to find the, you know, like a solution.
00:52:11
Speaker
when perhaps there isn't one, but if there's anything you can share with your own institution, what what really works or doesn't, so nobody else replicates it.
00:52:24
Speaker
Sure. Well, I'm happy to say I've got four. Go ahead. And can you go first, please? I was just going to say, drawing upon what people have said, and actually, David, what you said speaks a lot to what I'm about to say.
00:52:35
Speaker
um But so the building blogging project that I've been co-leading with Dr. Tom Ritchie at the University of Warwick and also had ah Lee Mencarini and Adam Alcock as leads last year on it.
00:52:49
Speaker
So the project began last year when I really, as a student, i was like, oh, I don't feel included or able to access things. And I'd really like to support other students in, i well, understanding this and supporting a sense of belonging.
00:53:03
Speaker
um It then grew massively and we we joined the Advanced HE Building Belonging Programme and we developed a framework. based on people's, ah a lot of what you said, Dave, in terms of like belonging, it's such a multifaceted, multidimensional, it's individual. You know, how I experience belonging is not how you're going to feel, you experience belonging and how I experience belonging is going to differ.
00:53:27
Speaker
like every day in different contexts based on lots of different things. um And so we deliberately have not defined belonging because then we'd exclude people. and We don't want to do that. um Yes, exactly. and um And it was really interesting. We worked with students and staff um And we found the themes were the same across both groups, or maybe which maybe isn't surprising.
00:53:51
Speaker
ah But yeah, speaking to so what's been said, like the the core themes that came out were originally um autonomy, which then got changed to empowerment because autonomy felt lonely and didn't speak to what we were trying to do in terms of building belonging, um mattering, connection and inclusion, and all of it underlined by trust.
00:54:13
Speaker
um Because, well, without, how are we going to build meaningful connections if we don't trust each other? You're not going to. How are you going feel included in a space if you don't trust the people in that space or you can't trust that you can get to that space?
00:54:26
Speaker
You're not. um And I think something, so this last year, we Tom and I have been co-leading um a Warwick International Higher Education Academy learning circle.
00:54:39
Speaker
Very long, lots of words in higher education. um And it's been intimidating, but also incredible to see it grow. So we've got over 80 students and staff parts of that, and they've been testing the framework. We weren't going to go, right, so we've done this. Now everyone take it take it on because it's perfect.
00:54:58
Speaker
No, we really wanted to test it and see does it work? Does it not? Like, is it going to support you in in kind of stripping that back, that abstractness and feeling like it is a little bit more tangible, it is a little bit more doable, that you can actively support sense of belonging? Yeah.
00:55:16
Speaker
Yeah, so that's been, and so from feedback from the students and staff who are testing and using the framework within their spaces, we've developed resources, which I've loved so much because people are like, oh, it'd be great if we had this. It's like, okay, right, leave it with me.
00:55:32
Speaker
oh Let's develop it. They go and test it. They give me feedback. They're like, oh, actually, it didn't quite work in this way. Okay, right, let's let's review it. um And so it's been... It's been a lot, but it's been amazing. um And so we it's really exciting to people like, right, we can't stop now. Like we've got to keep going. It's like, okay, bro, let's find a way to keep going.
00:55:52
Speaker
um But yeah, I think something that was exciting core and is core to the framework was considering the different participation types as well so like trying to strip back this idea that co-creation is the be all and end all um and that oh we must always be co-creating but really just putting value on doing things for others doing things with others and doing things that are led by others um because yeah like it's not always like students may want to engage like staff they may want to engage but you we've got so many time pressures it may actually just be that they want to engage in a quick conversation and that's all that they can give for real that's amazing it may be that other students they want to lead on things fantastic support them in doing that but um yeah those were so when everyone was talking i was getting really excited because was like yes this is this is kind of what we've been working on um and i think that's why
00:56:47
Speaker
it has had such a positive uptake and we were actually shortlisted for a social inclusion award which was really like just lovely um and and it was just yeah kind of threw it back at the community in the nicest sense of just like this is all your work like this is everything that you have contributes but yeah i think i think ah something that maybe is a theme of today's conversation is you don't necessarily have to overcomplicate things and it's okay to still ask questions um and to keep asking those questions even if you think you might know the answer but talk to people about it um so yeah think there's a lot there that's that seems to be resonating with both tom and and david so as we we sort of start to move towards a close anything that you would uh add to to inca's kind of
00:57:40
Speaker
guidance there around kind of student participation and and the need for framework and simplicity and kind of adaptability.
Building Belonging at Warwick
00:57:47
Speaker
Tom, come to you. So um I'd say, just to answer, the question was kind of saying, is there anything really out there that doesn't work?
00:57:54
Speaker
um And is there anything out there that we're seeing working at the School of Finance at Westminster Business School? um In terms of what's not working is I think exactly what Inka's just said is just not talking about it. So there's a lot of denial of just saying, so my main endorsement is you've got to talk about engagement, you've got to talk about attendance. We've got to be curious about what's going on here.
00:58:14
Speaker
and So I'd say by ignoring these changes in engagement preferences that are going on in our society and washing up at our universities, and You can't just say, well, I do hear people still say it'll all be better after we get the COVID students through, but you'll have to wait so long for COVID students to go through.
00:58:33
Speaker
I'd say the second thing, which again, Inca, you said, but I've seen a lot, anyone who's been involved in professional services or student unions, will agree with this is we shouldn't just try something once and if no students turn up or only a few students up saying, ah we won't do that again.
00:58:46
Speaker
Sometimes you have to try things several times to build them into community. People may have seen them advertised think I'll go to the next one. So, and I found working in professional services and in university, in student unions that you sometimes need to do things about five times before you start to see the payoff.
00:58:59
Speaker
And so I'd say don't be obsessed. and Don't write initiatives off just because you've tried it once. I'd say also don't write off a lecture because only 5% of the people turned up.
00:59:10
Speaker
Or if you ran an extra critical opportunity, only five students turn up. So I'm saying to my staff, if that's the case, you give that those few students a really good session. They should get a better session for turning up. So not being so obsessed with the numbers. um I'd say avoid a blame culture. And these are we developments and this is part of our culture collectively. So blaming students, blaming staff, blaming certain officers at the university is always not good. I think we can't achieve community with a we culture.
00:59:36
Speaker
And then the final thing I'd say to avoid, um and I am hearing this a lot around the sector, is many universities are looking at mandating assessment. I mean, sorry, attendance again, mandating attendance. And I would, I'm up for experimentation um if it's highly relevant and if it makes sense to the student. But if you force attendance, you know, kind of like users you will sit there and we'll strap you in and we'll hold your head to look at the TV.
00:59:59
Speaker
I don't think that's go to go in a good direction. so So I'm up for hearing how those challenges go and how you can make them relevant, such as weekly assessment or portfolio based practice. But I think...
01:00:11
Speaker
we're kind of failing if we get to the point where you know what you just have to attend tough kind of thing you know I think what's working is we're our approach we're going for is we're talking because the majority of our students at Westminster and in our school are commuting students 85% plus so we're saying well I don't say to staff, you need to be entertainers. There are people out there saying staff need to be entertainers.
01:00:33
Speaker
I don't agree with that. I don't think that's fair. um And I don't think that's respectful to our academics. But I am saying you do need to run sessions that are worth coming in for. So I am saying, well, design your class so it's worth traveling across London for.
01:00:47
Speaker
And we are seeing that. So that's increasing the relevance. And some of that is active teaching and that can create community in the class. and And also we are in a business school, so we do have career orientated students, highly career orientated. So linking what we're teaching to the job market or to their career is really starting to pay off. So, and I have seen that in recent research as well, that if you link career motivations, career journeys, job exposure to engagement that just seemed to pay off in certain contexts, not in all disciplines.
01:01:21
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was actually going to give a little nod to what Inka was saying about some of the frameworks that they've been doing at Warwick. I've been lucky enough to get to read about some of the projects you've been doing there, including We Are Chemistry as an example. And I think you guys have done a fantastic job at linking the engagement activities you've been doing there to showing how that's been not only well received by students you then want to take up,
01:01:43
Speaker
leadership roles running those activities in future years, but also really tangible connections to improvements in student outcomes, retention rates as well. I think, you know, not everything can be measured and there is a risk that we kind of oversimplify things. But I do think if you've got an initiative or a set of initiatives, a culture that you've developed within a department that has shown really significant increases in outcomes, I think knowing you can can show that is a really powerful thing to know it's worth investing in and continuing And as Tom said, you don't want to get to a place where we're just shutting off things immediately.
01:02:16
Speaker
and
Building Academic Societies
01:02:17
Speaker
But being able to evidence that is what gives you that buy-in institution to keep resourcing these types of things. So yeah, check out We Are Chemistry is a good example of of some of that work and how that's done well. I'd also say I've seen some brilliant stuff across the sector in terms of at putting priorities around social community building for engagement in so what do call them, academic societies.
01:02:38
Speaker
So rather than just looking at the broader spectrum of student societies and groups, thinking about how we build those communities within students' actual academic departments, and so helping students to connect together around their course and the topic that they they are actually attending university for.
01:02:53
Speaker
I think where those have popped up, we've seen some really good feedback from students and reports from staff that have been leading those types of initiatives. I'd say the one thing I would avoid goes back to something Inky you said at the beginning, which is just when students aren't engaging, running something extra to try and give them more.
01:03:10
Speaker
So, you know, be cautious of the pile on strategy, the layering on of engagement activities. It just makes it hard for students to know what's really worth their time and effort. and what I hear all the time from staff is that it's just really demoralizing because it means you're spending all of your effort running these additional activities, which then also get little that much engagement or attendance, which is then just really disappointing for all the effort you put into it.
01:03:34
Speaker
um And the final thing I'd say goes back to the previous point I said, which is we should be talking with our students about this, you setting expectations from in the beginning. I think the the idea of these Sessions you can run, you know, whether they're led by staff, whether they're led by other students talking about their experiences university so far.
01:03:53
Speaker
Right at the beginning of the journey, what we learned through this process, what you should be able to expect of each other, what the university expects of you. and Having those conversations earlier, I think, just gets everyone onto a closer page, if if not the same page.
01:04:10
Speaker
going to move us on in a minute, but I just wanted to touch on a couple of points, just sitting there and listening to this this fabulous conversation. um One is around intentionality. and And Tom, you mentioned something around you know telling people this is important and it's part of your role. and you know We've got to be intentional around it.
01:04:27
Speaker
But the other was something which really struck me, Inca, when you were talking about your experiences and actually um the ability of when it was hybrid to pause, to listen, to reflect, to engage with things differently.
01:04:38
Speaker
And I guess running through the back of my mind is this the the challenge we have, the fiscal challenge, the the the pressure the sector is under at the same time. and And is there something where actually what we need to do is hampered by that? you know So rather than what we can't do, is is it is it is it too expensive? Because we think about it you know just listening to this conversation, student engagement is not a fixed outcome. It's a dynamic process.
01:05:05
Speaker
And it responds to how the learning is delivered and different delivery modes, face-to-face, online, hybrid, hybrid, open up those distinct opportunities for connection, flexibility and interaction. But making the most of those opportunities isn't automatic.
01:05:17
Speaker
um So designing for engagement across the models and that that comes back to that point around intentionality, deliberate choice about pedagogy, technology and the support. So is is there, is there,
01:05:31
Speaker
it's almost the elephant in the room around around around the the challenge here, which we we need to have that high quality multimodal delivery. And there's that real demand on time, skills, and, dare I say it, investment.
01:05:43
Speaker
So it can be resource intensive to do this, particularly when aiming to reach diverse learners, ensuring that's equitable, which we we we must be doing. Yet, as we're learning, and as I'm certainly finding out, when approach strategically and very delivery, know, it's these powerful tools for that inclusive and that meaningful learning. That really struck me what you're saying, Inca. So i't I don't know if there's really a question there, and and and I've gone slightly off script, but I felt that it was necessary to say. So yeah, I'll leave that one there.
01:06:10
Speaker
Well, i think I think sometimes we fall into a trap of, oh my word, this works, let's apply it everywhere. Maybe you can try and apply it everywhere if you want, but don't expect it to succeed like like it has in that one context with that one audience.
01:06:26
Speaker
Because actually, and I think that's where it comes back to kind of emergence and experimentation and listening to your audience and working with them. Because the, you know, The audience, like, so for example, whether it's students or staff, that's what I mean by audiences.
01:06:41
Speaker
So your students that you're gonna find you in say your history department, of course, they're gonna be diverse. They're not a homogenous group, but they're gonna have very different needs and wants and reasons and motivations and relevance.
01:06:54
Speaker
compared to say chemistry where there's labs and there's there's those time pressures. So I think, yeah, okay, you can get inspiration from other people's practice and onward that's worked it in this context and by all means try it, but don't necessarily feel like,
01:07:11
Speaker
oh my word, okay, it hasn't worked the same. Why hasn't it worked the same? Or capitalize on that, reflect on that. Why hasn't it? Speak to, like how, it comes back to having those conversations because yeah, I think, and also that point at the very beginning of don't try and teach that don't try and treat all students as the same.
01:07:29
Speaker
or all staff members are the same, right and enabling and celebrating that kind of individuality and that experimentation. um And also I think saying when Tom you were speaking earlier, I was thinking about the importance of making time to reflect as well, because I think um so often we go from one thing to another to another and we don't actually pause to ask the questions or we ask the questions, but then we're like, oh, moving on to the next thing. We don't reflect on the answers to the questions and give ourselves space. It is, and I think a lot of that, you know, we can feel like we are beyond capacity.
01:08:09
Speaker
And I think so there are a lot of people who are working beyond capacity, students and staff. But I think, yeah, having that time to reflect and and think, how could I do this differently? And am I working with the students or am I wish working with might the staff that are ah supporting this?
01:08:27
Speaker
Because everyone has something to give um and everyone is there for a reason. So, yeah, I guess that's my answer. But I don't know if it fully answers your really massive question and thinking.
01:08:41
Speaker
no no we're ending with a really simple direct question although it is a and it's a very challenging question also steward did you want to in no no i i yeah i i think my museum is really more around the resource inside of it and uh i think that's something that's that is also a challenge there really as well no i really value your response and thank you for that and that i't i didn't want to diverge completely but Yeah, is the resource a real challenge here? I mean, I need to know if that's the elephant in the room, so as it were. I really like Tom's articulation about earlier, though. I think you're right in a way, the pressure that is on our sector has pushed us to get so much you know better more thought around this. Yeah, is it's really pushed us to think about it. It's pushed us to care about student continuation, even if it's because some people care about it from a financial perspective. It means it gets talked about at Board of Governors meetings.
01:09:32
Speaker
It means we care about evaluation because we need to get evidence what's working, which allows us to then have continuous improvement. So yes, obviously, it does bring lots of challenges, but I think it does mean that there is a focus, which has brought some good stuff as well.
01:09:46
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you. Well, to draw our podcast to a close, we will ask always ask our guests for their ah top tip. So what would you like our listeners to to take away from this? And
Top Tips for Enhancing Engagement
01:09:58
Speaker
I mean, there've been many top tips throughout but the the whole recording.
01:10:02
Speaker
um But, you know, you you may have something for someone that's new to this. You may have something for someone that's more research orientated. It may be for something for someone who who's pushing at the boundaries. what what What's that one take home you'd like our listeners to consider?
01:10:15
Speaker
have to go first, everybody. I'd say... um and Don't look at the university classroom in isolation or even how the student, let's call the student a human being, is engaging with the university. Look beyond to wider society and how engagement with other things, whether that's our bank, whether that's our health service, whether that's our friends, whether that's how we shop, how we stream everything, how we search everything on the black mirror on smartphone.
01:10:39
Speaker
That is all changing towards an approach of how can we do it quicker, how can we do it easier, how can we do it cheaper? And all of those engagement practices that are seeing the high street change, that are seeing how we engage with even our family differently through voice noting or video calls as opposed to meeting up in person,
01:10:56
Speaker
um that is all all that engagement preference that we're seeing changing substantially in the workplace is washing up at the modern university and we're expecting universities to be the same as they were in the 90s of course it's going to change and we're all guilty of that we all love Netflix over watching terrestrial TV now I don't think it's going to be the same again so respect the changing world that we're in in regards to engagement and then we'll adapt to make sure the university remains relevant
01:11:27
Speaker
Brilliant. David, next? Yeah, sure. For me, I think i'll I'll go back to that point around ah shared expectations with students. I think it's within all of our gift to better understand ah why students have come to university, what their motivations are, and to be able to therefore understand based on those goals that they have, share with them what our expectations are of them, what their responsibilities are, the part they can play in it, to be able to talk to them about the benefits of whether it's attending in their classroom or taking part in the broader student experience, you know whatever that might look like at different institutions.
01:12:03
Speaker
to be able to have those, you know, sometimes brave conversations, to be able recognise there will tensions there, that it will be easier for some students to engage in some ways and difficult for other students to engage in those same ways and to recognise that there's going to be, there is a tension there, but to not hide away from it, you know, to to not think that we're ever going to be able to do student engagement to the students without them doing it. you know It has to come from the student.
01:12:27
Speaker
And so I think having those conversations, whether that be lecturer at the start of ah a module, standing up and talking about what they expect or what they've seen other students benefiting from in the past, or current students talking about what they wish they'd known at the beginning of their journey and sharing that wisdom on and imparting it to others.
01:12:44
Speaker
or a professional services staff member who just helps a student to link in with their servants by linking it to whatever's relevant to their career motivations, linking back to students' goals and having those conversations with them wherever we can.
01:12:56
Speaker
I think that's something we all can do, and I think it'll make a big difference. Brilliant. Thank you. Inka, short and sweet. Top tip? Yeah. ye One thing I thought...
01:13:08
Speaker
ironic that uh what Tom said in terms of spaces for education trying to stay the same when we're supposed spaces of learning and development so I just thought that's quite ironic and made me laugh top tip go to your audience there you go excellent can I give a top tip Stuart so I was getting one from for the sort of thinking about the academics rather than the students because I think We need to be mindful that we've got diverse student bodies, but we've also got diverse staff. And we need to be really clear with staff and provide guidance that's explicit about what engagement means, what it looks like, how we can encourage it and what, you know, what they need to do and what's what's within their gift. Because I think academics can feel responsible. And exactly as you were saying, David, we can do all of these things and we need to be sort of met halfway. But we do need to provide some real guidance and support for staff.
01:14:02
Speaker
because it's not always their priority or it's not always their area. You know, it doesn't naturally come naturally necessarily. So we do need some proper resource and time and space and guidance around, you know, how can we enact really positive change around student engagement?
01:14:22
Speaker
No, absolutely. Well, it does leave it to me to close this episode. um A heart-pout thank you to all our guests, to Inka, David and Tom To my co-host Vic, thank you so much. All of your insights have been invaluable.
01:14:38
Speaker
Before we go, i wanted to remind our listeners that there are a wealth of resources on our website. Indeed, we have the Student Needs Framework and the Company and User Guide that was published recently. We have the Student Engagement Framework and just listening to our guests, employability has come up, inclusivity, there's frameworks in both of those as well.
01:14:55
Speaker
you know We know that these nodes of intersect are so important in terms of enhancing student success. ah Next month, the podcast is on employability and much more begin to be unpacked what promises to be an equally exciting episode.
01:15:10
Speaker
Until then, stay curious and do tell your colleagues and friends, hit that share button, hit that like button and do follow us.