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Episode 4: Future-facing curricula
65 Plays1 month ago
This episode of Talking Transformation explores future-facing curricula in higher education, featuring Advance HE's Professor Mark O'Hara with Professor Beverly Hawkins from the University of Exeter, Dr Samantha Burvill of Swansea University and Associate Professor Chris McInerney from the University of Limerick.
They discuss preparing students for rapidly changing work environments through both updated content and innovative teaching methods. Key themes include developing transferable skills (critical thinking, collaboration, creativity), embedding sustainability and ethics, promoting interdisciplinary learning and bridging academic-vocational divides. The panellists emphasise building "change-capable" students with growth mindsets rather than predicting specific future needs.
Success measures should focus on student development journeys and stakeholder engagement rather than just degree outcomes. The conversation highlights ongoing curriculum transformation efforts across UK and Irish institutions.
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Transcript
Introduction and Theme
00:00:12
Speaker
So hello and welcome to today's podcast where we're going to be exploring some new thinking that's shaping the future of higher education. My name is Professor Mark O'Hara and our theme today is future-facing curricula for the 21st century.
Preparing Students for the Future
00:00:28
Speaker
So across the world universities are asking some big questions about the kinds of knowledge, skills and values that that students will need for the decades ahead, how higher education can remain relevant in the face of automation, AI, globalization, shifting labor markets, and how do we design curricula that not only prepare students for for employment, but also for citizenship, creativity, and lifelong learning.
00:00:52
Speaker
So to help unpack these and and other questions, I'm joined by three excellent guests, all with expertise in topics such as curriculum design, workforce needs, employer perspectives, vocational educational pathways and employability skills.
00:01:07
Speaker
So to begin with, we've got Professor Beverly Hawkins, who's Dean for Taught Students at the University of Exeter, We have Chris McGinnany, Associate Professor from the University of Limerick, and Dr Samantha Burville, Associate Professor from Swansea University.
00:01:24
Speaker
And together we're going to explore how universities and their various stakeholders can reimagine curricula to meet the challenges and the opportunities for the 21st century.
Defining Future-Facing Curricula
00:01:34
Speaker
So let's get stuck in.
00:01:37
Speaker
um Just to start us off then, ah as an open question for for all of you. um how How do you interpret the phrase ah future facing curriculum and what do you think it's it contains in today's rapidly changing world? I don't know who would like to start.
00:01:56
Speaker
i'm I'm happy to start. and um I think for me, there's there's two facets to this. So I think the first facet is obviously, we need to ensure that we are delivering future facing content.
00:02:08
Speaker
So we need to make sure that we are giving students the academic and practical knowledge in their discipline that they require to go into the world of work and to be good citizens.
00:02:20
Speaker
But I think we also need to make sure that we are providing them with the the skills and the competencies that they need to ensure that they have a growth mindset and that they can continue into lifelong learning.
00:02:34
Speaker
But I think the the second facet of that is that we need to make sure that we have a future facing delivery as well. So I think we need to innovate and sometimes change the way in which we are delivering content to students.
00:02:48
Speaker
And I think we need to do this by working more closely with a different range of stakeholders. um And I think in Wales, we are doing this quite well because obviously I am um from Wales and I'm from Swansea University.
00:03:01
Speaker
And I think um MEDA, which is the the Commission for Tertiary Education and Research in Wales, is really helping us to do this from a strategic perspective. Thank you, Navas.
Innovative Teaching and Global Models
00:03:13
Speaker
That's a great, great start.
00:03:14
Speaker
Beverly, did you did you want to say something from your perspective at Exeter? Yeah, happy to. um Firstly, I completely agree with everything that Sam has just said. I think she's explained really well. This is not just about future facing content, but it's also about innovative pedagogies, right? And making sure that we are learning from models globally about what good looks like in higher education.
00:03:39
Speaker
Perhaps the one thing I would add on top of the sort of skills piece and sort of is is to think about how um we recognize the fact that that the landscape of higher education is changing as you ah you as you set out in the introduction and to think about how do we respond to that? How does the higher education sector as a whole pick up and respond to those conversations and demonstrate that actually there's still room, lots and lots of room for research inspired, exciting education that can be delivered in really innovative ways that also
00:04:16
Speaker
meets the needs of students and employers um in terms of skills, but also makes really important local and global contributions to education. Brilliant, thank you.
00:04:28
Speaker
um Chris, we're lucky to have you because you're able to bring a kind of international perspective on this. So from your point of view, what does what's what's future facing for you? Yeah, look, I suppose, again, I'd agree with with them all the earlier um contributions For me, when I started looking at this, um you know I'm drawn to the words future and drawn to the words curriculum. um And I was wondering what would happen if we substitute the word curriculum with student experience.
00:04:56
Speaker
So if we want future facing experience so that we recognize that we have to focus not just on the broader academic curriculum, but on the range of experiences that students encounter.
Skills for Change-Capable Curricula
00:05:09
Speaker
so for example, in in the University Limerick where based, we're focusing on five skill zones. um So skills that come from academic content, skills that come from related worker placement content like Erasmus, skills that come from volunteering, skills that come from being involved in student union organizations, and then a whole range of off-campus activities.
00:05:31
Speaker
So on the curriculum side, what we're trying to do is begin to integrate those because too often I suppose my experience is that they often tend not to talk to each other. So we can have an academic curriculum that doesn't always speak to the work facing or the work integrated learning or doesn't always speak to the range of really valuable problem solving experiences that a student might gain by being the chair of a club or society for example.
00:05:58
Speaker
The other bit of the the words put that if I started unpicking terms that you introduced which were very good to get us started is if we substituted the notion future with change capable.
00:06:11
Speaker
So if we talk about a change capable curriculum, because we can't predict the future and the future that we can predict now won't be the future that we'd be predicting in five years time is changing so fast.
00:06:22
Speaker
So if we talk about how do we design a change capable student experience and that takes into account the fact the only thing we can probably be certain of is uncertainty and unpredictability.
00:06:35
Speaker
So We're looking at building in flexibility, agility and and creative capacity um as ah as a way of building that change capable future student experience. So it's taken taken the the the future curriculum um terminology and then trying to add a little bit more layers on No, thank you. that That's great. and And actually, that's that's quite a good a kind of segue. I think that's the right phrase.
00:07:03
Speaker
um I just wondered if perhaps you you could say a little bit more about some of the some of the kind of skills work that that you've been um doing there at at Limerick and maybe touch a little bit on how we balance those different type of competencies and and capabilities within within what we do in higher education.
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah, look, I suppose there's there's a lot of talk, there's a lot of conversation about this um in Ireland, in the UK. If we're looking at in continental Europe, they're talking about transversal skills. In Ireland, you know we're using the more term transferable skills, which is also... Anyway, depending on where you are you're hearing different terminology used.
00:07:45
Speaker
And suppose one of the things with skills is not to separate it from mindset. and because there is always a danger that we can equip people with skills, but not with the mindset to actually use those skills correctly.
00:07:59
Speaker
And sometimes skills can be inappropriately applied. but Lots of people can have and understand the skills of collaboration. But if you don't in some ways understand that collaboration is inherently about power relationships in some way or other, and it inevitably involves some degree of giving up of power, um well then...
00:08:19
Speaker
ah your your ability to be a good quality collaborator or a facilitator of collaboration is problematic. So in in the University of Limerick, we've um recently launched a campaign for undergraduate and postgraduate students, which we call Recognise, Record, and Reward.
00:08:35
Speaker
And the objective with that is to encourage students to recognise the skills that they have, recognise the skills that they need to develop, um and recognise how they can develop those. So we've developed that competency frameworks and we're we're just focusing on seven core skills, the ah traditional four C's of collaboration, communication, creativity and critical thinking alongside sustainability, literacy and action, problem solving and digital skills.
00:09:04
Speaker
So we're trying to encourage students to recognize these skills and how they need to develop them, to then record them um using ah an ah electronic portfolio and we're using one called Portflow, um which ah will be provide a basis for students to gather and curate evidence about their skills, you are following the competency framework.
00:09:26
Speaker
And then we are encouraging students to gain reward for them by applying for university-approved digital badges, specifically associated with skills. But then these skill qualifications will also be recorded on the student transcript.
00:09:41
Speaker
So for us, that's that's a kind of a key development that the students can see that there's a value in doing this.
Resilience and Employer Engagement
00:09:46
Speaker
Thank you. Now, it's really interesting. And and I thought your your comment about mindsets was was really was really important as well. we did We did some work few years ago when I was at Birmingham City around what we refer to as dispositions, learning dispositions, and they they made such a difference to to kind of student outcomes.
00:10:03
Speaker
Beverly, did ah you look like you'd like to come in. um ah just Just thinking about how familiar some of that sounds, Chris, we've certainly done something very similar. through our curriculum for change project at Exeter. So um just thinking about what you were talking about in terms of change capable students, um that's definitely a something that is embedded through our programme. I think what we're looking at is how do we help students become resilient to change, but also how do we enable them, how do we help them grow and learn to think of themselves as agents as change and able to kind of
00:10:40
Speaker
influence things and and um and and work together around some of those things. And part of that has been absolutely looking at developing a skills framework that is partly about recognising extracurricular content and wherever possible building in um opportunities like volunteering, like internships, like part-time work into the curriculum so that those things are accessible to students who typically find it really difficult to manage that alongside their academic work.
00:11:15
Speaker
The other piece that we're doing is linking our skills framework directly into our summative assessments so that we can identify where students are picking up those skills.
00:11:26
Speaker
And that means at the end they will have a record of um of work that they have done both within their curriculum and then alongside it, which they can demonstrate to to um their employers, much in the same way as Chris is talking about through a portfolio or a series of um badges and and and other sort of micro credentials, I suppose, that would enable them to demonstrate and articulate how they are picking up those skills and that's something I i talk to students a lot about the challenge of
00:12:00
Speaker
not only are we all, we're already teaching a lot of these transferable skills, but sometimes it's difficult for students to recognise that, and then for them to be able to represent it in a way that employers recognise.
00:12:13
Speaker
So part of the work, I think, that but we're doing Exeter, and it sounds very much like, Chris, you're doing something similar, is about helping students with that process of translating skills that are embedded, that we know are embedded in undergraduate degree programmes and postgraduate programmes, but that perhaps need a little bit of help to be translated into something that makes sense in a employment interview or to help students see that actually those skills are also important, not just in terms of the world of work, but also in terms of their life enrichment, right?
00:12:43
Speaker
So thinking not just about the role of skills in terms of employability, but helping students recognize how that it's about them becoming a kind of fully and integrated, rounded human being.
00:12:56
Speaker
It's interesting what you said about about resilience there, Beverly, because i mean one of the things we found was that that resilience was extremely important, but actually the um the parallel disposition or or mindset, if you like, that that that really that really sort of enabled you to capitalise on that resilience was self-compassion.
00:13:16
Speaker
yeah and And that was hugely important. Sam, did you want to say anything about the the whole skills piece? Yeah. Yes, I think it's really interesting um'm listening listening to everyone talking.
00:13:27
Speaker
um i think it's quite telling of of what's happening in the sector as a whole, that we're all going through ah a change and and a flux at the moment, um because it seems like we're all trying to do a similar thing. So I think, you know, if anyone's listening from the higher education sector or even the further education sector, I'm sure that they are going through similar things in terms of curriculum transformation and um You know, at Swansea, we have introduced Swansea University graduate attributes, which sounds very similar to to what you've been doing.
00:13:59
Speaker
And as you said, I think one of the key um challenges is getting students to understand and identify the skills that they are developing. um And so we've created a student journey map, which again, sounds very similar to to what you've been talking about.
00:14:14
Speaker
and And I think it's all about trying to embed these skills and therefore, that mindset into our students and enabling them to understand but they that they have those skills and those competencies.
00:14:27
Speaker
um And it's interesting here, you talk about um change and change management and change leadership and change agency. um That's actually a module that I'm teaching to my undergraduate students um this semester.
00:14:40
Speaker
And I always tell them, I think it's one of the most important modules that you could take because it applies to so many different things. And I think, you know, adaptability is is the key the key word there but think resilience and confidence is absolutely massive as well I think you know enabling our students to develop that confidence is something that's really really important and seeing that almost that that distance traveled in terms of the skills and and their their personal development throughout their time with us and beyond I think Thank you, Sam. can um I just wondered whether we could sort of move move on a little bit, because one of the things that that's often kind of levelled at universities in the UK, at least, is on the part of some employers is around the kind of perceived skills gaps.
00:15:25
Speaker
And I just wondered, perhaps, Beverly, you could you could start us off, maybe say a few words about how you've been trying to engage with employers and industry voices in order in order to address the the perceived gaps in terms of workforce needs.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So this is something that we've been looking at for a while. um It's also something that we're thinking about in our um QAA collaborative enhancement project that we're currently running with about six other universities. It's all about thinking through a sort of whole community approach to curriculum transformation. And that's something that and alex we've been doing for quite a while. So it's not necessarily for us just about redesigning the curriculum, but also reviewing it. So at our program review meetings, we invite um external partners from PSRBs, professional statutory regulatory bodies, and employers, alumni, graduates, current students along, and we make it a sort of much rounder conversation. So, and that that does two things for us. I think the first thing it does is that it helps make sure that
00:16:36
Speaker
the employer voice is not just a sort of one-off voice, but that it's integrated into the continuous sort of enhancement of our programs. And that's really important. And it helps us, of course, understand what employers are looking for, but it does that in a much more sort of embedded, contextualized way. And one of the other things that we found is that by doing so, we've also helped employers understand more about the other things that go into curriculum design, whether it's disciplinary mastery and depth and the sort of range of aspects of the student experience that we have to think about when it comes to our programmes, whether it's research inspired learning or the commitment to quality enhancement that we have.
00:17:19
Speaker
But then, you know, just thinking about our current Curriculum for Change Transformation programme, we've done a very similar thing and looked at the sort of round much rounder kind of stakeholder engagement process. So we've done panels with um lots and lots of student panels to get their feedback.
00:17:39
Speaker
We've done market research with applicants and applicants' parents because we know how important the parental voice in this is as well. um And we're balancing that alongside employer voices and research in education innovation. And and that has brought a really, um a wealth of different perspectives.
00:17:59
Speaker
to understanding skills gaps, because it's it's about understanding the student experience in the round, hearing from from current students and graduates, as well as employers, um and also other other important voices like other thought leaders in higher education, um heads of sixth form, who've been incredibly insightful about the journey that students have been on before they come to the university and what that means in a sort of post-pandemic context.
00:18:28
Speaker
And I think that um that has really helped us to to think more about how we embed skills gaps in in a curriculum that feels purposeful from a disciplinary perspective.
00:18:42
Speaker
um I think the other thing that has really helped there has been to ensure that when the curriculum is revised, that that is a locally owned piece of work, that any kind of curriculum transformation process might be about establishing some shared principles that that can be built on to ensure a consistent and a high quality student experience but actually that the development um of the curriculum itself and the mapping of skills into the curriculum and the assessment is something that has to be done locally and by people who are disciplinary experts and that has really helped to kind of soften
00:19:21
Speaker
ah kind of approach to skills, skills based learning in a way that people um from different departments can get involved in.
Cross-Disciplinary and Interdisciplinary Learning
00:19:28
Speaker
That's a really interesting point you make there about sixth forms and colleges and that whole kind of tertiary take on some of this. I mean, I think there's there's easily another podcast just just in that alone.
00:19:38
Speaker
So I'm not i don't i don't i not suggesting we sort of dig into it too far, but it but it is an important point. And I know, i know ah Sam, I think I'm right in thinking that in Wales, for example, Meadow is very much taking a kind of tertiary standpoint on this. Is that is that so? Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. um You know, they they really want to have this more collaboration and um collaborative working between higher education institutions and further education institutions. And I think that there is a lot of really good work going on there.
00:20:09
Speaker
um But I think there's definitely more that could be done. But I think sometimes all it needs is it is a little bit of facilitation. um and for instance, MEDA created um the community of practice that they run.
00:20:21
Speaker
which is obviously supported by Advance hg and And we have found that to be you know absolutely critical in enabling us to to collaborate and speak with and work with people that we would never have been able to get in contact with otherwise, or that would have perhaps taken us a very, very long time to be able to do that.
00:20:39
Speaker
um And you know we've we've worked together with academics, working with career service staff, professional service staff, and it's just been absolutely wonderful.
00:20:50
Speaker
um Because I think sometimes you often have this siloed working where you have academics working together on a project or you might have professional service staff working together on a project. But I think, you know, there's beauty in bringing those people together.
00:21:04
Speaker
and I think more collaboration between um hi and FE is absolutely crucial. And I think we can really learn a lot from each other. Thank you. Chris, how is it in Ireland in terms of engaging with employers or or you know colleges and FE and what have you? what's What's the situation where you are?
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, look, we're we're hearing and all the same say messages. um And I suppose some of the core messages we're hearing as we're sending out graduates without certain core skills. um ah you and that seems to be worldwide thing. um ah The question is, are we sending out the graduates without the core skills, or are we sending out graduates that don't recognize that they have those core skills? So there may be a messaging element that's involved there as well.
00:21:46
Speaker
Or else we have a really good financial model where we send students out without the skills, send them into industry, and then we take them back in again. They pay to do micro-credentials or to do postgraduate diplomas, and then we get a second go at it, and then we say, So maybe we should just cut out that element and build these skills much more explicitly into the content.
00:22:07
Speaker
um And I think that engagement with with employers is obviously crucial. Now, I'm based on the Faculty of Arch Humanities and Social Science. We don't normally keep company of people in multinational corporations, but over the last three years, we have been.
00:22:21
Speaker
So the launch I mentioned earlier on of our Recognised Recorded Reward Campaign We had speakers at that from Verizon, which is a big American multinational corporation and based here in Limerick anddo and in Dublin.
00:22:32
Speaker
But we also have representatives of our National Council for cur Curriculum and Assessment, which is involved in designing content at second level and right back into primary school level. So we were trying to capture the upstream and the downstream elements.
00:22:45
Speaker
In a way, I would say, being been honest about it, that we probably hadn't um we hadn't focused on sufficiently in the in the past years. Now, I do think in terms of you know employers telling us that the certain skills are missing, um and and we've had lots of feedback um on this over the last couple of years, ah partly the challenge is to make sure that the skills that students are developing are explicit and that they can showcase them.
00:23:12
Speaker
So we need to be able to produce students that are conscious, confident, and active in relation to their skills. So it's not not some kind of a passive challenge you know, idea that they get a piece paper saying, well, you've developed the following skills.
00:23:25
Speaker
They have to be able to have confidence to be able to talk about those skills, to give examples of them. and And also, and this this is why, and and touching on what Beverly is saying as well, why we're using portfolios. So the students are being being challenged to say, well, if you claim you have a skill, provide the evidence to back it all So on the digital badges, we'll include the portfolio access into the metadata of our digital badges.
00:23:48
Speaker
So students know, if I claim I have a problem solving skill, I'm going to have to back it up. Not just at the interview, give me an example of a time when solve the problem. We all prepare the example then in advance of the interview, and but you don't actually have a full range, I suppose a full range of examples.
00:24:06
Speaker
The final bit I'd say on this is that yeah is to acknowledge that for some colleagues, um maybe in third level and traditional universities, there could sometimes be a bit of a resistance to us doing skills. They might think ah skills are for somebody else.
00:24:20
Speaker
When in fact, core skills like critical thinking, like the analytical thinking that the World Economic Forum are saying that you know employees need, all of these are core business of universities.
00:24:32
Speaker
um Critical thinking, problem solving, creativity. when When did they not become our business? And I think that's a bit of an internal challenge that sometimes we have to encounter with with with colleagues to make sure that these are seen as our core function.
00:24:47
Speaker
that's That's a really interesting point and and it takes us on nicely to to one of the other things I was wanting to ask you about, which is around um calls for increasing interdisciplinarity in terms of the you know the student experience.
00:25:01
Speaker
and you know When it comes to tackling you know complicated worldwide kind of challenges, how can our curricula better support that kind cross-disciplinary learning and those flexible pathways and you know to what extent university structures are um actually helpful helpful in that regard.
00:25:17
Speaker
ah Sam do you I know you've been doing some work on this at Swansea do you want to kick us off? Yes, of course. I mean, this is something that I feel quite passionately about and I get quite excited about.
00:25:28
Speaker
um Not just in terms of interdisciplinary working between students, but like I said, interdisciplinary working between colleges, colleagues and institutions as well. um But I think there's a number of different ways in in which we can do this. um And what we've done at Swansea, i'm I'm in a faculty of humanities and social sciences as well.
00:25:49
Speaker
And what we trialled this year for the first time was a um hackathon which was focused on the Wellbeing of First Generations Act. I'm not sure if you're aware of what the Wellbeing of First Generations Act is, but it's obviously about improving the the social, economic, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales.
00:26:10
Speaker
So it is a legally binding um common purpose for public bodies in Wales. And it sets out these seven wellbeing goals. And so the hackathon was focused on that.
00:26:21
Speaker
And so we had students from across the four schools within our Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences um obviously competed against each other. And it was just absolutely wonderful to see how Well, they worked with each other in this interdisciplinary nature and they only had about six hours to work on these challenges and these solutions to them.
00:26:42
Speaker
And what we've been able to do this year is we've managed to scale that up. So it's now a Pan Wales hackathon. So all of the the higher education institutions in Wales will be taking part.
00:26:53
Speaker
So all of the students will be competing with each other at the same time. all of them from different disciplines, and different levels of study as well. And they will, the winners from each um institution will then compete in a kind of grand final at Swansea. So that's something that we really are excited about because it's something I think that's quite unusual within a humanities discipline.
00:27:16
Speaker
um We've also found that this has transpired into um occupational therapy and paediatric nursing, for instance, within Swansea University.
00:27:28
Speaker
they undertook their first hackathon last week. And again, seeing those students working together, um they created a solution for burns prevention in Wales.
00:27:39
Speaker
And they've never worked together before. And I think they had about three hours to work together. And again, it was it was just absolutely amazing. um So I think they are obviously extracurricular examples. But I think um but we also do things like um enable students to to choose certain modules that from different programs. So I've got on my change management um module, I have engineering students, for instance, which is obviously really interesting with business management students.
00:28:10
Speaker
But I do think, again, there's there's more that we could do here. um Myself and my colleague visited Georgia Tech in Atlanta, and it was really interesting to see the approach that they take because their students can take modules from across different programmes, across different faculties.
00:28:28
Speaker
They could choose a psychology module, a law module, um science and engineering module, for instance. And that was just really, really interesting to see that they work together at different levels as well. So I do think that there's more that we could do.
00:28:43
Speaker
um Definitely. Thank you. ah Chris, um how does it how does it work at Limerick? Do you do kind of interdisciplinary stuff ah there too?
00:28:55
Speaker
Yeah, we certainly do a certain amount of interdisciplinary stuff. But Mark, you have to recognize people who spent many decades building up these silos. We can't take them all down straight away, I suppose.
00:29:06
Speaker
I suppose it's not easy to displace these decades of silos. and But I think you know what Sam has said, i certainly agree with it. I think it's it's a much bigger challenge to try to create a large number of interdisciplinary programs. So we do have some interdisciplinary programs. um I think trying to break down those silos is something that will would take a lot of time, much time as it's taken to build them up.
00:29:32
Speaker
Where I do think the space exists, though, is... potentially in some of these skill areas that we've been talking about. So that if we if we use skill components, for example, critical thinking done with geography students and electronic engineers, then wouldn't that be a lovely ah lovely way to go with to use these skills as the the wedge within these interdisciplinary silos to try to break them apart.
00:29:56
Speaker
And I think that's just ah but that's not just about breaking down silos for the sake of breaking down silos. um But it's also, ah as as suppose, much more so about encouraging different types of thinking, cross-virtualization cross- virtualization of thinking I would say from a ah student recruitment point of view, um we'd probably need to do a little bit more investigation, suppose, into recognizing what happens when you present students with courses and and options that don't have a disciplinary hook. and I've seen some examples of it in recent times where
00:30:30
Speaker
students and maybe their parents and maybe, maybe bed from your your comment earlier on, and you know, all about your research with parents, you know, sometimes if things don't have a disciplinary identity, um there there may be a difficulty in people being attracted to them.
00:30:43
Speaker
So I think it's in that the skills space where this interdisciplinary working has real potential thrive. It's an interesting point you make really about um about the silos, not just being the concern of the institution, but actually maybe being reinforced from outside in terms of you know society's wider expectations about what what we do.
00:31:00
Speaker
Beverly, I can see you nodding there. Do you want to come in? Yeah, um so much of this is resonating with some of the conversations we've been having at Exeter. Definitely recognise the challenge of thinking about what stories do we tell students about interdisciplinary learning and how do we help them understand the value of that.
00:31:20
Speaker
One of the conversations that we're having right now is is around developing a series of elective pathways focused exactly on the kind of skill sets that Chris was talking about, actually, that students can select onto once they're here.
00:31:34
Speaker
So thinking about ah allowing them to apply through UCAS for a programme that they they're familiar with, They might be passionate about particular single honors subject and allowing them to apply for that, but then offering up a series of pathways in future skills areas like, for example, sustainability um solutions or entrepreneurship, digital technologies, data science that could be applicable across different disciplinary boundaries and then helping students or finding a way to allow students to select onto those pathways once they're here.
00:32:10
Speaker
And that speaks very much, Mark, to the challenges that you've been talking about, about institutional structures, because we've discovered a number of kind of challenges along the way around how do we ensure that our systems enables us to identify those students on those pathways um and just sort of some of those more infrastructural challenges.
00:32:31
Speaker
But absolutely, the the the plan is that we will have a number of these pathways that students can select onto, um even as part of their kind of um standard program, if you like, and that we have asked colleagues to leave some credit spare on the assumption that students might want to do this.
00:32:50
Speaker
um There's all kinds of other um sort of operational challenges like timetabling and making sure that you have avoid clashes and all lots of very good reasons for um for it to be difficult, but we're we're kind of working through it now to try and make sure that um in due course we'll have a series of modules in each of these different skills areas that will bring students together from distance different backgrounds.
00:33:14
Speaker
And I think there's also something about pedagogy here, which is about what does it mean to teach interdisciplinarily or even transdisciplinarity? And we've also um just established a kind centre for transdisciplinary learning to think about, well, what does it look like to bring students from such diverse backgrounds together and give them a kind of meaningful experience that is also applied that is working towards something.
00:33:40
Speaker
So um we're we're on the journey, we're learning. There's still a long way to go in terms of learning, but we're really, really excited about what that might offer for students. No, that's great. I mean, but but I could just um ask you ask you to maybe comment on something else as well, which is around the distinction sometimes between kind of what's perceived as an academic degree and a kind of vocational degree and whether that's something that you've been contemplating at Exeter as part of this work you're doing around curriculum for change.
Vocational Skills and Collaboration
00:34:09
Speaker
Yeah, very, very much so. So I think we've we've had this assumption, haven't we, in in across the sector for a long time. But i I think in some ways, when you look into it a little bit more, um the shift towards incorporating sort of practical and applied skills has been something that's been happening in in education or higher education for a really long time. So you think back to when the first medical degrees were awarded. I think University of Glasgow was one of the first ones in the 17 something.
00:34:37
Speaker
So, you know, universities have been involved in developing sort of more applied programs in law, in teaching, um in accounting, perhaps for for a really long time. But I think what what has changed more recently is the recognition that it's not necessarily the specialist areas, the professions that universities can can um think about when it comes to skills building and vocational um skills. I think we're starting to realize that that, um you know, all our degree programmes offer important transferable skills around communication, global and cultural awareness, citizenship, empathy, all skills that are recognised by the UN as being really vital to um ah healthy workforce. And I think, I guess there's two other things I would say in response to that. Firstly, it doesn't mean that we can't really value the importance of achieving disciplinary mastery for its own sake. So that is always going to be a really important part.
00:35:37
Speaker
of what a higher education institution does. It's part of that environment of discovery and learning that we are all really passionate about, right? So it's also a really important reason why students continue to want to apply to university.
00:35:52
Speaker
um And certainly for parents at open days, they they recognize the value of that, but they also tell us that helping students articulate these broader skills that we've been talking about and helping them demonstrate that to employers is an important part of how universities demonstrate value for money in a tuition fee environment. And that's something that certainly within the UK we're having to think about.
00:36:17
Speaker
um But I would add one other point, which is that I don't think it's just about the sort of blurring of vocational and traditional academic within the HE sector. I think it's broader than that across tertiary Jennifer McIntyre, perhaps, and I think we're also seeing the recognition that vocational programs or traditionally vocational programs.
00:36:37
Speaker
Jennifer Also benefit from the inclusion of academic skills and we see that born out in the successive degree apprenticeships that's something that extra is really invested in over the last 10 years. McIntyre, Ph.D.: the ability of apprentices to to be able to come to communicate complex ideas and long form writing to.
00:36:57
Speaker
Anne Gilliland- enter debate and explain things from multiple perspectives, those are things that we would typically expect. Gilliland- University undergraduates and post graduates to be able to do, but actually we're seeing them more incorporated into work based learning programs now because they are recognized as important employability skills um and I, so I think that that kind of blurring certainly at Exeter of the conversations around.
00:37:22
Speaker
Anne Gilliland- Learning and teaching. for degree apprenticeships and learning and teaching on our other programmes has really helped us realise that sometimes that division is perhaps a bit more blurred than you might originally assume.
00:37:37
Speaker
Thank you. Sam, did you want to say anything from your perspective ah in Wales at Swansea? Yeah, I mean, I think traditionally one is is traditionally seen as being better than the other, isn't Going back to that kind of societal focus.
00:37:52
Speaker
And I think that's the key thing that we need to move away from there is is deeming one to be better than the other. um i mean, to give a personal example.
00:38:03
Speaker
Obviously, I went on and and ended up doing a PhD. My husband left school at 16, absolutely hated school, would never have of of wanted to go to university yeah and has has a wonderful career. So I think we just need to move more towards this collaboration, I think, with further education institutions and developing this understanding that people need to choose the route that suits them best and suits their skills best and and that ultimately...
00:38:32
Speaker
one is not better than the other, they they are just different. And I think that's the the key message that we need to try to be building and going across, not just to our students, but also to our stakeholders as well.
00:38:45
Speaker
Thank you. Chris, did you want to say anything on the academic vocational divide? Yeah, I suppose I think it goes back to a question of what we value and um and what but we've come to value. I know I could probably find 20 political scientists come around to my house and fix my leaky tap. I probably couldn't find a plumber to come right around to fix my leaky tap. um But for some reason, the 20 political scientists might be seen as having a higher cachet in society because they have a PhD. So and I certainly would agree with Samantha's point on that.
00:39:18
Speaker
I do think you know within the the world of what we might call traditional academic degrees, and so if we compared vocationally specific with non-vocationally specific,
00:39:29
Speaker
it actually changes the way we think about it a little bit because for people who are in a non-vocationally specific degree, and I was the course director for our Bachelor of Arts program here in the University of Limerick for three years.
00:39:42
Speaker
And one of the points that you're continually hearing is, well, you know, where where the career is going to be. Now, I never have any doubt that arts degrees prepare people for an incredibly rich foundation, but there's a lot of, suppose, attention and focused on, well,
00:39:57
Speaker
Where are you going to go to with a non-vocationally specific degree? um So like I think the the issue is is to ensure that ah non-vocationally specific degrees are also enriched with an element of skills focused.
00:40:12
Speaker
And as Samantha said, that then more vocationally specific degrees are enriched with an element of academic content because both of these um are essential components. you know Do we want business graduates coming out without critical thinking capacity?
00:40:26
Speaker
My God, what kind of a world are we going to be? Well, maybe it's the world we're already in, i'm not sure. No offense to business graduates. and But we certainly need to ensure that you know thatre all all students, whether they're in FE, higher education, in apprenticeship routes, in traditional universities, um have you know particular set of competencies that your data that all have academic and more vocational skills.
00:40:52
Speaker
ah That's a really interesting point you make around, um you know, what what kind of world do do we want to live in? I wonder if we could pick up on some of that, because there are some what I would refer to as kind of cross-cutting themes or dimensions, such as kind of global citizenship or sustainability or, you know, ethical responsibility.
Integrating Core Themes and Diversity
00:41:11
Speaker
And I was just wondering,
00:41:12
Speaker
um whether we could but spend a couple of minutes thinking about where that stuff um fits and sits in a in a curriculum for for the for the future or a change capable curriculum.
00:41:25
Speaker
Sam, Sam, do you want to kick off on that one? Yes, yeah. um I mean, I would focus in on um the sustainability aspect there. I think it's absolutely crucial that we are covering this, you know, within the curriculum, extracurricularly.
00:41:41
Speaker
We know that we're not on track to achieve the the goals of the SDGs um and obviously in Wales to achieve the goals of the Wellbeing Future Generations Act, I think is absolutely crucial.
00:41:52
Speaker
that we educate and prepare our students in this. And I think there is some really excellent work being done in this area, probably not just in Wales, obviously, but UK and internationally as well.
00:42:05
Speaker
But speaking from from a Welsh perspective, um through the MEDA community practice, they funded a task and finish group looking at ethical and sustainable employability throughout Welsh higher education institutions.
00:42:20
Speaker
and And what we did was we gathered best practice examples of sustainability being embedded um throughout Welsh higher education institutions. And what we found was we gathered 49 case studies and we found that there's just absolutely amazing work going on within Wales. And I think the problem is sometimes that this work is going on, but we just don't know that it's happening because those conversations aren't taking place.
00:42:47
Speaker
And, you know, we found there was excellent examples, not just in terms of learning and teaching, in terms of assessment, but also in terms of things like research, executive education, um f FE qualifications, for instance, things like um networking, partnerships, student feedback. You know, there were so many different themes that we found some really excellent examples on.
00:43:13
Speaker
um So we will be producing um a report which I think is being published in November and then we will be publishing a toolkit which we're really hoping ah higher education and FE institutions will be able to use to help embed sustainability within their institutions um to a higher level. so That work has been absolutely brilliant to be involved in And I think it just shows that we need more of this collaboration and more of this conversation making like we're happening today.
00:43:43
Speaker
Thank you. Now, Chris, how about how about you in terms of a ah change capable curriculum? Where where do these cross cutting dimensions fit for you? Look, I'd agree strongly on the sustainability, literacy and and action. And I think one of the challenges in this space is whether or not people within their disciplinary domains are willing to give up a certain amount of time and space to allow these cross-cutting things to be embedded.
00:44:10
Speaker
um So we we we talked about that a little bit earlier. um and And we've had experience in the past of what we call broadening modules where people could dip their toe into certain modules to try them out.
00:44:21
Speaker
I think this is a bit more serious than that. These are not just things to dip your toe into. These are absolutely essential fundamental cross-cutting elements. So I'd say sustainability, literacy and action, number one, but crucially then an emphasis on cognitive and and analytical skills with the side of creativity on top of it.
00:44:40
Speaker
The world we live in, for me, um you know the d the decline of our ability to think critically, the decline of our our ability to engage um even with weeding, I think we all probably would have that experience of of struggles with students to to read ah material on courses.
00:45:02
Speaker
So the the the focus on cognitive um and analytical skills and and creativity. And then the final one I'd say, and this might seem strange in terms of ah these cross-cutting themes, but I think having a focus on ethically and environmentally informed digital skills is important.
00:45:20
Speaker
to put a lot of emphasis on digital skills and that's great we all know how to use excel and microsoft word and sometimes something a bit more fancy um but taking digital skills um and looking at them from an ethical and an environmental perspective i think is a cross-cutting element that i would see in being Yeah, and and I think it's going to be particularly challenging, isn't it, when a lot of the discourse in in in the media it see sees even even the the idea of discussing those things as, you know, labelled as as woke and somehow, you know, suspicious as a result of that.
00:45:53
Speaker
Beverly, in terms of what you've been what you've been doing at Exeter, you must, I'm sure, have been contemplating things like ethics and sustainability and citizenship.
00:46:05
Speaker
Yes, um absolutely. We have a sort of um a strapline to our 2030 strategy, which is um that we're all about making the world greener, fairer and healthier. And we've developed some sort of expectations that every programme will have core content that engages students with those themes.
00:46:23
Speaker
um Those sort of minor pathways that I mentioned earlier are also kind of connected to them as well. So lots and lots of kind of conversations about embedding those cross-cutting themes. I mean, I think the other ones, it would be um it would be remiss of us not to mention AI, particularly thinking about, in relation to Chris's point, around critical thinking, around ethical use of technology, and helping students engage with that in a in a responsible way, and think helping them think through appropriate uses of AI.
00:46:55
Speaker
um But then I think the other sort of theme that underpins all of this, right, is our recognition that our student body is changing. um And that's something, you know we mentioned earlier conversations with heads of sixth form and FE colleges, but also thinking about the increasing diversity of our cohort and what that means for us to teach them and the diverse needs that they have. So we've got growing sort of international divergence, but we've also got but growing neurodivergence amongst our students, students with different qualifications coming in.
00:47:28
Speaker
um different backgrounds in terms of education cultures. We've got more students from widening participation backgrounds than we ever have before. So I think a lot of this is also about, you know, if we're talking about a change capable curriculum, it also has to be change capable from the inside. We have to be able to iterate as we go, right to make sure that we're meeting the needs of students, not just employers, and that we're kind of also thinking about how to bring those changes to bear on the on the changing nature of our disciplines um so i think there's there's a lot to think about and i think one of the things that as um is becoming really clear to me is that a curriculum transformation isn't a one and done now this is not something you could do in a big bang and then leave it and and go away and do something else it's a process of constant um review and iteration and that whole community approach that i was talking about before about bringing in consistent um
00:48:27
Speaker
engagement with students, with applicants, with employers, with um regional partners and and so on is going to be really important for making sure that programmes stay kind of um where we need them to be in terms of their their relevance and their interest in their disciplinary depth.
Measuring Success and Conclusion
00:48:45
Speaker
Thank you. no that That's great. So I think we need to, I'm conscious of time, and so we need to kind of bring this to a a kind of conclusion. I wonder if if where we might go next is in terms of working out how do we know if we're being successful or have been, have been successful?
00:49:01
Speaker
You know, what, what, what, um, indicators are they that we could or or should be looking for? ah Chris, could I perhaps come to you to sort of, um, start, start this one off? What, what, how do we know if we've, if we've been successful?
00:49:16
Speaker
Oh yeah. So it's a nice, easy question for us to finish off. with and And I was, and I was reminded by but when Beverly was talking there about iterating that, um, you know whether whether we need to substantially change the way we approach how we do evaluation and engagement with monitoring and evaluation um in universities and and using even using a design thinking approach.
00:49:42
Speaker
So where we we engage not just in surveys, which certainly in lot of our cases, we we don't always get a very high level of feedback on, um But we we start thinking more about observation and empathy immersion like you would in a design thinking approach.
00:49:59
Speaker
And then based on that, we ideate. And then based on that, we prototype. And based on that, we iterate. And then we come back and we test. And then we start we do it all over again. um And I think maybe that fits in a little bit with what Beverly was saying about having more frequent more frequent processes.
00:50:16
Speaker
But I think it's not it's not just about having more frequent processes. It's about changing the types of processes that we um that we we look at. um And that by by empathy immersion, we put students very much at the center of this whole thing. At the end of the day, they are the key users in the human-centered design process we're talking about.
00:50:34
Speaker
um as are, I think, external actors like employers, not proper organisations others. And I think, yeah, I mean, I would wholeheartedly support that. i think I think there may be some interesting and, dare I say it, difficult conversations to have with with, in certain quarters, trying to persuade people that actually something that's qualitative as should have the same kind of status as as something that's quantitative. But but i would I would completely agree with you.
00:50:57
Speaker
Beverly, did you did you want to pick up on this? Yeah, of course. um So I think... We could list the sort standard metrics, right, that our KVIs are are based on um around the TEF, around um high performance in the NSS, graduate outcomes.
00:51:14
Speaker
I think there's a number of metrics that sit under this that tell us a little bit about how students are doing broadly. um and i'm And I think, you know, we could look at things like number of complaints and appeals, um number of extensions requested.
00:51:29
Speaker
those all tell us something about the broader student experience as well and how students are doing on their programs. But I think it also comes back to that piece that Chris was talking about, about, you know, the conversations that we are having with our students about how they're doing. There's one, there's a certain amount of kind of surface level snapshot that those metrics can tell us that can be useful or can kind of tell us or be one indicator um as to whether we're on the right path. But I think it's that trying to establish relationships and dialogue and feedback loops with students where we we learn um really important information about where interventions could really make a difference. So it's one thing to tell, to understand, okay, we have an awarding gap in this space, but unless we really engage with students and learn from them, it's really difficult to understand the the interventions that will work. And I think that that is key. So um not losing sight of
00:52:29
Speaker
the the the importance of kind of that that feedback process and that dialogue process. um And I think one thing that we've we're very lucky with at Exeter is having really effective um academic representation, student representation. So are our students guild and students union officers have been fundamental to all of this work and involved in some really challenging conversations actually about um students needs and what we can do to to kind of evolve the the student experience more broadly. And that has been just a real boon to this project, but also a really joyful thing about working in higher education is learning and talking to students and learning from them. I agree that that kind of co-creation piece is is wonderful when it's work but it works well.
00:53:19
Speaker
Sam, do you have the final word then? and How do we know if we've been successful? I would totally agree with what what Chris and Beverly have said there. um I think we need to move away from this focus on degree outcomes, um graduate outcomes, as you said, Beverly.
00:53:36
Speaker
i think we really need to look more at the distance travelled by the students, like I said before, you know, looking at the skills and the competencies that they've developed, the growth in their confidence. And I think that's absolutely key, given what you said, Beverly, obviously about education.
00:53:51
Speaker
the increase we've got in neurodivergent students and students from differing backgrounds. And I think if you asked each of us here today our overarching memory is of our students, I'm sure we would all give some personal story about seeing a student journey throughout their time with us at university.
00:54:12
Speaker
We wouldn't be saying, oh, I really remember that time when that student got a 72 year old. You know, I think that's so just the key thing, isn't it? I think that's that's what we need to really be focusing on more.
00:54:25
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you. Right. Well, our time is is just about up. So can I just finish by saying a couple of words, which is that that you know we have covered a great deal of ground um in terms of thinking, you know, rethinking the kind of balance between technical human skills, bridging kind of the like academia and and and kind of workforce needs and embracing education.
00:54:47
Speaker
things like interdisciplinarity and the kind of ah cross-cutting um global themes. It's clear that future-facing curricula aren't just about new content or technologies, but are also about cultivating adaptable and reflective learners and and in some cases maybe re-examining you know that the purpose and and the structure of higher education.
00:55:09
Speaker
So I'd just like to so thank m ah guests our guests today, Beverly and Chris and Sam, for for sharing their ah really thoughtful perspectives on all of these issues. And thank you listeners for for joining us.
00:55:25
Speaker
If you've enjoyed this podcast, you can find ah more conversations like this on the Advanced HE webpages. So um until next time, thank you very much.
00:55:36
Speaker
i'm My name is Mark O'Hara, and this has been Future Facing Curricula for the 21st Century.