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Episode 2: The challenges facing leaders in higher education today
31 Plays10 days ago
In this episode, host Charles Knight is joined by new Advance HE CEO, Alistair Jarvis and incoming Dean of Birmingham City University Business School, Leanne de Main to explore leadership and transformation in higher education as we navigate this time of rapid change.
Alistair discusses a number of challenges affecting higher education institutions including funding pressures, geopolitical uncertainty and expanding leadership portfolios.
Leanne then shares her experience implementing block teaching models, highlighting the importance of moving quickly with change, addressing "imagined barriers," and preventing regression through structural reforms.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Talking Transformation'
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to this edition of Talking Transformation, the podcast from Advanced HE that explores the leadership, ideas and innovation shaping the future of higher education.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm your host for this episode, Dr. Charles Knight, Director of Leadership, Governance and Management.
Leadership and Transformation in Higher Education
00:00:31
Speaker
In this episode, we're focusing on leadership and transformation in a time of complexity, as universities and other HEI providers face unprecedented operational and cultural changes.
Meet the Guests: Alastair Jarvis and Professor Leanne de Main
00:00:44
Speaker
I'll be joined first by Alastair Jarvis, the new CEO of Advanced HE, to hear his reflections on the role of leadership and transformation in navigating the current landscape. Then I'll speak with Professor Leanne de Main, the incoming Dean of Birmingham City University Business School, about how institutional change can be delivered in practice.
00:01:06
Speaker
including her leadership and work on block teaching transformation at a range of institutions and her other collaborative work across the sector. So my first guest, Alistair Jarvis, CEO of Advanced HE.
State of Higher Education and Leadership Needs
00:01:21
Speaker
Good afternoon, Alistair. Good afternoon, Charles. So Alastair, you've just recently stepped into the CEO role. um What are your early reflections as you've moved into this role on the state of the sector and where leadership is most needed right now?
00:01:38
Speaker
Well, I probably don't need to tell um many of our listeners that these are really challenging times for for higher education and and research, and both in the UK, but also many countries across the world. um You look at the significant funding pressures You look at a world where there is a lot of conflict, turmoil.
00:01:54
Speaker
There are nationalistic
Funding Challenges and Sector Pressures
00:01:56
Speaker
governments. There are restrictive visa regimes. These are all putting very significant pressures um on universities. um And they're taking their toll, actually. And I think on leadership teams, this is this is a sort of tough, tough time, a tough environment in which to lead.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah. And I just wanted to pick up ah about this kind of complexity and toughness. One of the other things that we've seen in the sector related to what you've just said is my read is many senior leaders portfolios are becoming larger institutions of reconfiguring to have leaner, smaller senior leadership teams.
00:02:29
Speaker
And you've recently joined us from a senior leadership role in the sector. Am I right in thinking the portfolios just seem to be getting bigger and bigger? Yeah. yeah Yes, I mean, I think you have to recognise there's an awful lot of diversity across the higher education sector, um both in the u k and globally.
00:02:47
Speaker
um so So it is hard to make generalisations, but I think you are right that um partly because of cost pressures and people slimming down the number of senior roles, but also actually just because of the complexity of the environment we're working on and the broad range of issues that universities are having to face.
00:03:07
Speaker
um I think we end up with leaders with an awful lot on their plate and very broad remits. and And those broad remits, and you've mentioned about the the kind of diversity and the complexity of the sector.
Necessity of Transformative Leadership
00:03:21
Speaker
what What's the importance, therefore, of successful transformation in higher education? What does effective transformation look like to you? So so my my recent conversations with a whole range of higher education institutions, people on leadership teams, governing bodies, um i said our members Advance HE, it's really reinforced the need for us to focus on how we can support um transformation and change in higher education.
00:03:49
Speaker
um It really is the big issue near the top of most priority lists for most higher education research institutions. I think um staff in higher education are are experiencing a period of great change.
00:04:01
Speaker
There's a real need for transformation. and And this is, course, in the context of financial pressures. But it's also changing student demands. It's also the international uncertainty. It's digital development.
00:04:12
Speaker
And all of these things are are creating a dynamic where you can't stand still. You've got to transform. You've got to change. Because, in fact, if you don't... ah Those that ah benefit from universities these will not benefit so much because yeah the students need a different kind of student experience. The learning environment dr is different.
00:04:30
Speaker
The economy and the wider society is it' sort going through a very rapid development. And you put the funding pressures on top of that and you end up in an environment where, as somebody described to me recently, um change and transformation is business as usual now.
00:04:47
Speaker
and And that's really interesting because um allied to this this question of change and transformation, and you've mentioned just then some of the financial pressures, we are seeing these challenges around financial resilience, workforce morale is is is a big question, big issue, AI integration and how AI will change both the nature of teaching learning, but also the infrastructure of institutions.
Balancing Vision and Agility in Leadership
00:05:13
Speaker
And also across our kind of global membership, I think the level of govern government scrutiny of higher education in terms of public good, value for money, how it feeds into national employment agendas has never, never been higher, really.
00:05:29
Speaker
So, How do leaders think about these challenges strategically? And um I guess if I can put it this way, make sure that they have the right emphasis on the strategic aspects of what needs to be done.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, um I mean, that there's no sort of one easy answer to this because it does depend on the the context, of course. It depends on the particular um institution um and the nature of the leadership challenge will vary to some degree.
00:06:00
Speaker
But I think um speaking kind of broadly, I think there is a ah real need for leaders to be setting out a clear vision and direction of travel in these uncertain times.
00:06:13
Speaker
So that in a period where staff at all levels are feeling an awful lot of change transmitting, this is unsettling. They know the sort of North Star, they know the direction that the institution is going in and the expectations that leadership have for for for the organisation and its staff.
00:06:30
Speaker
So I think that clarity of sort of vision and direction is really important. However, and there's a sort of very big caveat to that, we also need leaders who are really agile and really adaptive to the situation.
00:06:42
Speaker
So although i think the direction of travel has to be clear, I think we have to have leaders that can navigate Uncertainty, changing environments, you know, sudden financial pressures, policy changes, changing student demands.
00:06:57
Speaker
So although the vision is important and the direction is important, you need in terms of your leadership style to be able to be flexible and adapt ah because stuff will happen and you have to react to it.
00:07:09
Speaker
and And I think just the geo, if we stick to the geopolitical for the moment, and some of the changes we've seen just this week when we're recording this podcast, some of the American visa changes are making a massive difference to where potential students and graduates are going.
00:07:27
Speaker
And even just that geopolitical level to me is so interesting because It must be so hard to make those kind of universities love five year plans to make those kind of plans, even for the next academic year, when the geopolitical landscape and the nation states that you as an organization may interact with or want to interact with, they could just change so quickly within that space. And I think that point you make about the adaptability is is I think that's become even more crucial in the past.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I agree. I think that you leadership. A significant part of leadership is about problem solving. It's about um having to sometimes course correct because of the things that that that that happen.
00:08:14
Speaker
um so So I think I think it's that balance between making sure that you have a clear vision and overall aims, objectives, development. what what you want from your institution, where you want your institution to be, but realizing to get there, it won't be a linear journey and things will happen and you have to adapt, you have to um you you have to change things.
00:08:32
Speaker
You will have to you will have transform, more you'll have to change. You will at times um have to take a different course or a different route to get to a where you are. Barriers will appear and you've got to sort of problem solve of those.
Engagement with External Environments
00:08:44
Speaker
um You mentioned about this sort of external environment and i I think this is really important and I think that um Leadership teams need to be highly engaged externally as well. I think this is a skill that needs to be embedded across higher education leadership teams that i don't think you can sort of say, well, you know, the vice chancellor and a couple of the other senior teams are the kind of external facing people and the rest of us are all internal, because I think the external environment is having such a impact on universities that if you don't have leaders who are really engaged and really um up to date with what's happening externally,
00:09:19
Speaker
I think that you will struggle to to lead successfully through these these sort of times. And of that is, of course, the the absolute need to to to collaborate. and And there's been a lot of work recently on effectiveness, suff efficiency in the sector and collaboration. But I think and i think in financially constrained times, um how we work together to be more effective, more efficient, I think is really, really vital.
00:09:43
Speaker
You mentioned ah in there about this idea of course corrections. And in the United Kingdom, in particular, where we're recording this podcast, we've recently seen some very high profile examples of governance failures amongst HEIs and universities.
Governance and Culture in Higher Education
00:10:00
Speaker
And one of the results of that that we've kind of seen in the sector and the discourse around governance is that we need more focus on process and structures as a guardrail.
00:10:12
Speaker
The constitution the governing bodies, how they interact with the exec, very process driven. And i'm I'm interested because I know you have a deep expertise and interest in governance.
00:10:24
Speaker
is that Is that the right approach? And what's the role of culture in making sure that universities have the right guardrails?
00:10:35
Speaker
so So I think um process and structures can take you a certain certain way. So they like they can provide a space to sort of operate good governance with them.
00:10:50
Speaker
And I think it does provide sort of some kind of guardrails. But what I would put right at the of the list, I think more important than structures and processes, is culture within governance. Because ultimately governance is about people and it's about relationships between people.
00:11:04
Speaker
And you sort of introduced this by talking about some of the governance failings or some of the kind of worst things we've seen. know Now, I think it would be very hard to say that those were process or structure failings.
00:11:16
Speaker
They frankly were people failings. They were... um individuals who either didn't have the right relationship between exec and non-exec, or indeed um were in some ways bad actors that were causing ah challenges with the the governance and leadership of the universities.
00:11:32
Speaker
um And I think you can have perfect structures and processes, but if you haven't got the culture right in your governance, you're unlikely to have an effective governance process structure, particularly in times of change.
00:11:48
Speaker
um So I think those people relationships, those the development of people on governing bodies, equipping them with the capabilities to to play a really positive, constructive friend, critical friend sort of role, relationships particularly between chairs and vice chancellors and or chairs and chief executives, um I think are really, really crucial. So I would say that if we're looking about how we enhance reform governance in universities, yes, there are some things we can learn on process.
00:12:17
Speaker
But I think, and there's good practice out there, and i think, you know, that can be shared. But I would focus primarily on the cultural side of things. That's really interesting. and And I'm just reflecting across the conversation we've had. and We're talking about complexity, that the level of complexity in the sector, and this... this speed of change that we're seeing is one that's not going to slow down. and You joined the Advanced HE about six weeks ago, I think, at the time we're recording this podcast.
00:12:54
Speaker
What's the role that you think the organisation can play in helping our members and other institutions cope with the complexity that we're seeing? And how do we help shape the sector?
Advance HE's Role in Supporting Change
00:13:06
Speaker
yeah so So, yes, I'm i am um um just over six weeks in and I think that Advance HE needs to be very closely attuned to the current and changing needs of higher education institutions.
00:13:22
Speaker
I think we need to enhance our support for transformation change, ah which is the issue, I think, at the top of many institutions' agendas. And I think we we need to transform and to modernise ourselves to ensure that we keep innovating and we're really maximising our positive impact.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I think what that means kind of in practice is that we can play a really important role in supporting transformation and change. We can be ah an enhancement agency, a really sort of trusted partner for but higher education.
00:13:50
Speaker
And we've got to look at where do we have expertise, where do we have experience, and how can this help institutions through these challenging times. So if you say, broadly speaking, our focus is on people, you know we can help play a role to enhance capabilities at all levels to lead and manage transformation and change, whether that's academics, professional services, governing bodies, leadership teams.
00:14:09
Speaker
And so I think embedding right through what we do, our membership offer, our support to the sector, our development programs, our consultancy, ah embedding this support for transformation and change, I think, is is how we play a stronger role, or more impactful role um for the who for the sector and then really help institutions through um sort of choppy waters.
00:14:33
Speaker
The other thing I'd say is that we need to look outside the sector, particularly outside the UK sector as well. I think we are a global membership organisation. We have a global community and there's fantastic practice and some really interesting individual examples of some of the challenges and indeed some solutions to the challenges that UK education and institutions are facing ah across the world. So we need to look at how we we we share and transfer those solutions and knowledge.
00:14:58
Speaker
And also when through outside you the sector, we are by no means the first sector that has had challenges on needing to transform, need to change, need be more effective, more efficient. Financial pressures, these are common a number of different sectors.
00:15:12
Speaker
there's a lot we can learn from from outside. I mean, I remember relatively recently having a conversation with somebody who was a chief counsel of a police force that had to um ah cope with about a third of their funding being reduced.
00:15:24
Speaker
And, you know, that's a massive, massive transformation and change the program that was needed and challenge. um you know We've seen massive transformation in the NHS, in a lot of business sectors. There's a lot we can learn from, I think. So I think bringing those learnings both from overseas, but also from other sectors is going to be important.
00:15:44
Speaker
I've been with the organization for three years, I think, at this point. And having moved from an institutional role, I think one of the things that is so amazing about this organization is that ability for us to convene and bring organizational learnings from one organization to another.
00:16:03
Speaker
And just speaking personally, my depth of understanding of the sector and the diversity of the sector, both in the United Kingdom and globally, my time here has really improved that. And i can and it really brings home to me how we're able, because we're a membership organization, to say,
00:16:20
Speaker
even at a really high level, if you're going to try this, actually, we have other members who've tried this and we already know this can be really successful. Or in a transformational space, oh, there's potential things you really need to be careful about if you're going to try that because we already know from our other members. And I think being a membership organization in that transformational space rather than, say, a consultancy organization means that you that convening power is is really powerful for the ability to bring people together and organizations together. Yeah, I agree. I think that um that focus and that almost culture of being a membership organization does allow us to build a ah sort of community of practice here and and and and draw from
00:17:03
Speaker
those experiences So i I entirely agree with you I think the other thing we we we we need to ensure we are doing is recognising that we have deep expertise in some areas, but in fact, how we partner with other organisations for transformation and change has got to be sort of central to our approach. So I think there will be institutions that need a range of support.
00:17:26
Speaker
And how we blend our expertise in leadership development, educational excellence, governance effectiveness with other organisations that have different but complementary skills and capabilities, I think will be a really important part of our ah approach in the months and years ahead.
00:17:40
Speaker
Thank you. So just to finish off, Alistair, I think, and again, as we record this but this podcast this week, and to segue nicely into my next guest, I believe that tomorrow you're off to our teaching awards, where you might be you'll be seeing the kind of some of the innovation that we're seeing amongst members. Am I right? so That's right. I'm looking forward to heading to Bristol for the teaching awards tomorrow evening and hearing... um other the fantastic examples across the sector of real amazing teaching excellence. So yes, that's that's tomorrow evening.
00:18:12
Speaker
Great. Thank you, Alistair. Thanks, Charles. Thank you. My next guest is Professor Leanne de Main. Leanne is about to take up the role of Dean at Birmingham City University's Business School.
00:18:25
Speaker
Leanne has a strong track record of leading academic transformation, ink including playing a key role in introducing and scaling block teaching models at a range of institutions.
00:18:38
Speaker
I'm going to speak with her this afternoon about the nature of educational change, what transformation sticks and how collaborative leadership plays a role across institutional boundaries.
00:18:48
Speaker
And I'm just going to put in a quick disclaimer here. yeah Leanne and I have known each other for a number of years and I'm always saying this to her, but I'm a massive fan of what Leanne does. And when I agreed to do the podcast, said, I've got to get Leanne onto the podcast.
00:19:01
Speaker
So Leanne, good afternoon. um So you're about to take up your new leadership role at Birmingham City University in the Business School.
Leanne de Main's Leadership Journey
00:19:11
Speaker
And when people do these kinds of roles or they move into these roles, you know what's exciting to you about the opportunity to lead transformation in a new context?
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, I think ah it's really interesting what you said about ah looking under the rocks, because the way i always express that when I work with colleagues is to say, if you work pat if you walk past something that's of a low standard, you then enforce and set that low standard.
00:21:00
Speaker
And I think one of the... kind of things about transformation and change and especially about leadership in particular is you kind of have to have that mixture of pragmatism but also you have to be willing to face things that aren't right because if you as the leader won't face things that aren't right nobody else will you know
00:21:56
Speaker
and And part of the reason I wanted you on on this episode is, as I'm aware, and I'm just going to make our listeners aware, over the last couple of years, you've done some really exciting, interesting work around block teaching.
Implementing Block Teaching: Challenges and Resistance
00:22:07
Speaker
And you've done this and supported a number of institutions. You've been out to institutions to talk to them about how they could make use of block teaching, challenges of embedding block teaching, the opportunities of block teaching.
00:22:19
Speaker
And the reason I'm kind of interested in block teaching is it's a really nice example of ah a significant change to practice where you can see, and I've seen when I've tried to introduce it into places, real resistance from colleagues because colleagues are like, but we've always done things this way.
00:22:38
Speaker
This is always how things have worked. I've worked in other institutions. I've always had this kind of modular. So block teaching is interesting to me, not only as a model, but the kind of concerns it raises in staff because it represents a significant change to practice.
00:22:56
Speaker
And I guess my question to you about it is, you know, obviously, if we use block teaching as the example, what are your kind of thoughts about how do we get staff buy in and get them involved?
00:23:10
Speaker
If we're trying to make these really structural and systemic changes that things like block teaching represent?
00:24:09
Speaker
yeah
00:26:43
Speaker
And I just want to pick up a couple of things in in what you said. And I thought it was something really interesting in there about what you talked about. The speed of change helped make the change.
00:26:54
Speaker
And absolutely nobody wanted to live through the COVID period. And you and I were both working in business schools during the COVID period. But one thing I did take from that period was it really demonstrated that if a university wants to make changes quickly,
00:27:11
Speaker
It can. And I totally get that we need due diligence and proper process. I get that. But even accepting that, there was a speed of change during that that I thought, wow, this is going to kind of herald a change in how universities really rapidly change.
00:27:27
Speaker
post-COVID, that's kind of gone away and we've gone back to the more ponderous. So I think it's really interesting what you say there about the kind of speed of change, because I guess as well, the other thing that sits behind this, you talk about the speed of change for colleagues being involved at the operational level.
00:27:45
Speaker
But if you're going to do that kind of systematic change you're talking about, you must have had to get the senior leadership team buy-in to say, okay, this is going to be a big change, but it's something we really need to do.
00:27:56
Speaker
And so that transformation is about getting the buy-in at different levels.
00:29:10
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:30:00
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's right. I think the way he was once described to me is you don't want change that slides off the culture, you know, and that, and that's always stuck with me. Um, in your work on block, you, um,
00:30:13
Speaker
you also worked with a series of other universities who were looking to introduce block. And I guess that for me, that's a really interesting thing because that's about organizational transformation when you're an external party.
00:30:27
Speaker
And one of the things I think that's really interesting about transformation in higher education is how you make use of external people coming into your organization and critical friends. So your experience of kind of working with not your university, if I can put it that way,
00:30:43
Speaker
working with other universities to try and embed block. I guess you saw lots and lots of, as you'd expect, different cultural practices and different challenges in introducing block.
00:31:40
Speaker
Thank you.
00:32:15
Speaker
Thank
00:33:06
Speaker
um I'm going to something slightly naughty as a podcast host in that ah for our listeners, ah when you do a podcast, you often give the participants the questions in advance. But i'm going to change one of my questions, Leanne, and put you little bit on the spot because I'm so
Supporting Future Leaders in Higher Education
00:33:22
Speaker
interested in this. Yeah.
00:33:24
Speaker
One of the things I've always noticed about you and our interactions as kind of peers is you've always struck me as someone who's really supportive for what I'll call the next generation of of of leadership in in higher education.
00:33:39
Speaker
So going to change the last question I was supposed to ask you because I'm really interested in this. What do you think is the role of senior leaders such as yourself in higher education in supporting the next generation of leaders, which is something I've seen you do time and time again?
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that pet really resonated with me when you said about places that you can't exist. And as a white middle-aged male, um I try and avoid that thing that happens where I try and be a omnipresent and represent myself as I know i can work out and know everything about everything.
00:36:39
Speaker
And it's kind of I think it is really important just to acknowledge there are things that other people are better at. So you step aside to allow them to be better at. I think it was ah think it was the vice chancellor of Brighton, Donna Whitehead, who I saw speak once and she said, you need to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. And it always feels to me this is an example of that.
00:37:03
Speaker
Just kind of hand off and get out of the way when there are people better to do things. um Yes.
00:37:41
Speaker
Hmm.
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah. um Yeah, that's, you've you've just, ah as always, you've given me so much to think about. um Leanne, thank you for giving your time so generously this afternoon, because for our listeners, Leanne is actually on holiday and has popped in from Cornwall to do this with me. So thank you very much for that, Leanne.
00:38:44
Speaker
So, Thanks again to Alistair Jarvis and Professor Leanne de Mane for joining us on this episode of Talking Transformation. If today's conversations resonate with you, don't forget that our leadership focus member benefits are designed to support the challenges we've been discussing.
00:39:03
Speaker
From our new leadership survival series, our executive leadership webinars to our updated leadership frameworks. You can find more details on the Advanced HE website where you can also register as members for our upcoming events, webinars, access toolkits, resources and recordings.
00:39:23
Speaker
Until next time, thank you for listening and keep leading.