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Episode 2: The challenges facing leaders in higher education today
122 Plays2 months ago
In this episode, host Charles Knight is joined by new Advance HE CEO, Alistair Jarvis and incoming Dean of Birmingham City University Business School, Leanne de Main to explore leadership and transformation in higher education as we navigate this time of rapid change.
Alistair discusses a number of challenges affecting higher education institutions including funding pressures, geopolitical uncertainty and expanding leadership portfolios.
Leanne then shares her experience implementing block teaching models, highlighting the importance of moving quickly with change, addressing "imagined barriers," and preventing regression through structural reforms.
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Transcript
Introduction to Podcast
00:00:13
Speaker
Welcome to this edition of Talking Transformation, the podcast from Advanced HE that explores the leadership, ideas and innovation shaping the future of higher education.
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm your host for this episode, Dr. Charles Knight, Director of Leadership, Governance and Management. In this episode, we're focusing on leadership and transformation in a time of complexity, as universities and other HEI providers face unprecedented operational and cultural changes.
Meet the Guests
00:00:44
Speaker
I'll be joined first by Alastair Jarvis, the new CEO of Advanced HE, to hear his reflections on the role of leadership and transformation in navigating the current landscape. Then I'll speak with Professor Leanne de Main, the incoming Dean of Birmingham City University Business School, about how institutional change can be delivered in practice.
00:01:06
Speaker
including her leadership and work on block teaching transformation at a range of institutions and her other collaborative work across the sector.
Leadership Challenges in Higher Education
00:01:16
Speaker
So my first guest, Alistair Jarvis, CEO of Advanced HE.
00:01:21
Speaker
Good afternoon, Alistair. Good afternoon, Charles. So Alastair, you've just recently stepped into the CEO role. um What are your early reflections as you've moved into this role on the state of the sector and where leadership is most needed right now?
00:01:38
Speaker
Well, I probably don't need to tell um many of our listeners that these are really challenging times for for higher education and and research, and both UK, but also in many countries across the world. um You look at the significant funding pressures You look at a world where there is a lot of conflict, turmoil.
00:01:54
Speaker
There are nationalistic governments. There are restrictive visa regimes. These are all putting very significant pressures um on universities. um And they're taking their toll, actually. And I think on leadership teams, this is this is a sort of tough, tough time, a tough environment in which to lead.
00:02:10
Speaker
Yeah. And I just wanted to pick up ah about this kind of complexity and toughness. One of the other things that we've seen in the sector related to what you've just said is my read is many senior leaders portfolios are becoming larger institutions of reconfiguring to have leaner, smaller senior leadership teams.
00:02:29
Speaker
And you've recently joined us from a senior leadership role in the sector. Am I right in thinking the portfolios just seem to be getting bigger and bigger? Yeah. yeah Yes, I mean, I think you have to recognise there's an awful lot of diversity across the higher education sector, hu both in the uk and globally.
00:02:47
Speaker
um so So it is hard to make generalisations, but I think you are right that um partly because of cost pressures and people slimming down the number of senior roles, but also actually just because of the complexity of the environment we're working on and the broad range of issues that universities are having to to face.
00:03:07
Speaker
um I think we end up with leaders with an awful lot on their plate and very broad remits.
The Need for Transformation
00:03:14
Speaker
and And those broad remits, and you've mentioned about the the kind of diversity and the complexity of the sector.
00:03:21
Speaker
what What's the importance, therefore, of successful transformation in higher education? What does effective transformation look like to you? So so my my recent conversations with a whole range of higher education institutions, people on leadership teams, governing bodies, um i said our members Advance HE, it's really reinforced the need for us to focus on how we can support um transformation and change in higher education.
00:03:49
Speaker
um It really is the big issue near the top of most priority lists for most higher education research institutions. I think um staff in higher education are are experiencing a period of great change.
00:04:01
Speaker
There's a real need for transformation. and And this is, course, in the context of financial pressures. But it's also changing student demands. It's also the international uncertainty. It's digital development.
00:04:12
Speaker
And all of these things are are creating a dynamic where you can't
Navigating Complex Challenges
00:04:17
Speaker
stand still. You've got to transform. You've got to change. Because, in fact, if you don't... um Those that ah benefit from universities will not benefit so much because yeah the students need a different kind of student experience. The learning environment dr is different.
00:04:30
Speaker
The economy and the wider society is you' sort going through a very rapid development. And you put the funding pressures on top of that and you end up in an environment where, as somebody described to me recently, um change and transformation is business as usual now.
00:04:47
Speaker
and And that's really interesting because um allied to this this question of change and transformation, and you've mentioned just then some of the financial pressures, we are seeing these challenges around financial resilience, workforce morale is is is a big question, big issue, AI integration and how AI will change both the nature of teaching learning, but also the infrastructure of institutions.
00:05:13
Speaker
And also and across our kind of global membership, I think the level of govern government scrutiny of higher education in terms of public good, value for money, how it feeds into national employment agendas has never, never been higher, really.
00:05:29
Speaker
So, How do leaders think about these challenges strategically? And um I guess if I can put it this way, make sure that they have the right emphasis on the strategic aspects of what needs to be done.
00:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, um I mean, there's no sort of one easy answer to this because it does depend on the the context, of course. It depends on the particular um institution and and the nature of the leadership challenge will vary to some degree.
00:06:00
Speaker
But I think speaking kind of broadly, I think there is a ah real need for leaders to be setting out a clear vision and direction of travel in these uncertain times.
00:06:13
Speaker
So that in a period where staff at all levels are feeling an awful lot of change transmitting, this is unsettling. They know the sort of North Star, they know the direction that the institution is going in and the expectations that leadership have for for for the organisation and its staff.
00:06:30
Speaker
So I think that clarity of sort of vision and direction is really important. However, and there's a sort of very big caveat to that, we also need leaders who are really agile and really adaptive to the situation.
00:06:42
Speaker
So although i think the direction of travel has to be clear, I think they we have to have leaders that can navigate Uncertainty, changing environments, you know, sudden financial pressures, policy changes, changing student demands.
00:06:57
Speaker
So although the vision is important and the direction is important, you need in terms of your leadership style to be able to be flexible and adapt ah because stuff will happen and you have to react to it.
00:07:09
Speaker
and And I think just the geo, if we stick to the geopolitical for the moment, and some of the changes we've seen just this week when we're recording this podcast, some of the American visa changes are making a massive difference to where potential students and graduates are going.
00:07:27
Speaker
And even just that geopolitical level to me is so interesting because It must be so hard to make those kind of universities love five year plans to make those kind of plans, even for the next academic year, when the geopolitical landscape and the nation states that you as an organization may interact with or want to interact with, they could just change so quickly within that space. And I think that point you make about the adaptability is is I think that's become even more crucial in the past.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. So I agree. I think that you leadership. A significant part of leadership is about problem solving. It's about um having to sometimes course correct because of the things that that that that happen.
00:08:14
Speaker
um so So I think I think it's that balance between making sure that you have a clear vision and overall aims, objectives, development. what what you want from your institution, where you want your institution to be, but realizing to get there, it won't be a linear journey and things will happen and you have to adapt, you have to um ah you you have to change things.
00:08:32
Speaker
You will have to you will have transform, more you'll have to change. You will at times um have to take a different course or a different route to get to a where you are. Barriers will appear and you've got to sort of problem solve those.
00:08:44
Speaker
um You mentioned about this sort of external environment and i I think this is really important and I think that um Leadership
Culture's Role in Governance
00:08:51
Speaker
teams need to be highly engaged externally as well. I think this is a skill that needs to be embedded across higher education leadership teams that don't think you can sort of say, well, you know, the vice chancellor and a couple of the other senior teams are the kind of external facing people and the rest of us are all internal, because I think the external environment is having such a impact on universities that if you don't have leaders who are really engaged and really um up to date with what's happening externally,
00:09:19
Speaker
I think that you will struggle to to lead successfully through these sort of times. And of that is, of course, the the absolute need to to to collaborate. and And there's been a lot of work recently on effectiveness, efficiency in the sector and collaboration. But I think and i think in financially constrained times, um how we work together to be more effective, more efficient, I think is really, really vital.
00:09:43
Speaker
You mentioned ah in there about this idea of course corrections. And in the United Kingdom, in particular, where we're recording this podcast, we've recently seen some very high profile examples of governance failures amongst HEIs and universities.
00:10:00
Speaker
And one of the results of that that we've kind of seen in the sector and the discourse around governance is that we need more focus on process and structures as a guardrail.
00:10:12
Speaker
The constitution the governing bodies, how they interact with the exec, very process driven. And i'm I'm interested because I know you have a deep expertise and interest in governance.
00:10:24
Speaker
is that Is that the right approach? And what's the role of culture in making sure that universities have the right guardrails?
00:10:35
Speaker
so So I think um process and structures can take you a certain way. So they like they can provide ah um a space to sort of operate good governance with them.
00:10:50
Speaker
And I think it does provide sort of some kind of guardrails. But what I would put right at the top of the list, I think more important than the structures and processes, is culture within governance. Because ultimately governance is about people and it's about relationships between people.
00:11:04
Speaker
And you sort of introduced this by talking about some of the governance failings or some of the kind of worst things we've seen. Now, I think it would be very hard to say that those were process or structure failings.
00:11:16
Speaker
They frankly were people failings. They were... um individuals who either didn't have the right relationship between exec and non-exec, um or indeed um were in some ways bad actors that were causing ah challenges with the the governance and leadership of the universities.
00:11:32
Speaker
um And I think you can have perfect structures and processes, but if you haven't got the culture right in your governance, you're unlikely to have an effective governance process structure, ah particularly in times of change.
00:11:48
Speaker
um So I think those people relationships, those the development of people on governing bodies, equipping them with the capabilities to to play a really positive, constructive friend, critical friend sort of role, relationships particularly between chairs and vice chancellors um or chairs and chief executives, um I think are really, really crucial. So I would say that if we're looking about how we enhance reform governance in universities, yes, there are some things we can learn on process.
00:12:17
Speaker
But I think, and there's good practice out there, and i think, you know, that can be shared. But I would focus primarily on the cultural side of things.
Advance HE's Role in Change
00:12:27
Speaker
That's really interesting. and it And I'm just reflecting across the conversation we've had. and We're talking about complexity, that that the level of complexity in the sector, and this... this speed of change that we're seeing is one that's not going to slow down. and You joined the Advanced HE about six weeks ago, I think, at the time we're recording this podcast.
00:12:54
Speaker
What's the role that you think the organisation can play in helping our members and other institutions cope with the complexity that we're seeing? And how do we help shape the sector?
00:13:06
Speaker
yeah so So, yes, I'm i am um um just over six weeks in um and I think that Advance HE needs to be very closely attuned to the current and changing needs of higher education institutions.
00:13:22
Speaker
I think we need to enhance our support for transformation change, ah which is the issue, I think, at the top of many institutions' agendas. And I think we we need to transform and to modernise ourselves to ensure that we keep innovating and we're really maximising our positive impact.
00:13:38
Speaker
And I think what that means kind of in practice is that we can play a really important role in supporting transformation and change. We can be ah an enhancement agency, a really sort of trusted partner for but higher education.
00:13:50
Speaker
And we've got to look at where do we have expertise, where do we have experience, and how can this help institutions through these challenging times. So if you say, broadly speaking, our focus is on people, you know we can help play a role to enhance capabilities at all levels to lead and manage transformation and change, whether that's academics, professional services, governing bodies, leadership teams.
00:14:09
Speaker
And so I think embedding right through what we do, our membership offer, our support to the sector, our development programs, our consultancy, ah embedding this support for transformation and change, I think, is is how we play a stronger role, more impactful role um for the who for the sector and then really help institutions through um sort of choppy waters.
00:14:32
Speaker
ah The other thing I'd say is that um we need to look outside the sector, particularly outside the UK sector as well. I think ah we are a global membership organisation. We have a global community and there's fantastic practice and some really interesting individual examples of some of the challenges and indeed some solutions to the challenges that UK education and institutions are facing ah across the world. So we need to look at how we we we share and transfer those solutions and knowledge.
00:14:58
Speaker
And also when you go outside the sector, we are by no means the first sector that has had challenges on um needing to transform, need to change, need to be more effective, more efficient. Financial pressures, these are common a number of different sectors.
00:15:12
Speaker
there's a lot we can learn from from outside. I mean, I remember relatively recently having a conversation with somebody who was a chief counsel of a police force that had to um ah cope with about a third of their funding being reduced.
00:15:24
Speaker
And, you know, that's a massive, massive transformation and change the program that was needed and challenge. um you know We've seen massive transformation in the NHS, in a lot of business sectors. There's a lot we can learn from, I think. So I think bringing those learnings both from overseas, but also from other sectors is going to be important.
00:15:44
Speaker
I've been with the organization for three years, I think, at this point. And having moved from an institutional role, I think one of the things that is so amazing about this organization is that ability for us to convene and bring ah organizational learnings from one organization to another.
00:16:03
Speaker
And just speaking personally, my depth of understanding of the sector and the diversity of the sector, both in the United Kingdom and globally, my time here has really improved that. and i can And it really brings home to me how we're able, because we're a membership organization, to say,
00:16:20
Speaker
even at a really high level, if you're going to try this, actually, we have other members who've tried this and we already know this can be really successful. Or in a transformational space, oh, there's potential things you really need to be careful about if you're going to try that because we already know from our other members. And I think being a membership organization in that transformational space rather than, say, a consultancy organization means that you that convening power is is really powerful for the ability to bring people together and organizations together. Yeah, I agree. I think that um that focus and that almost culture of being a membership organization does allow us to build a ah sort of community of practice here and and and and draw from
00:17:03
Speaker
those experiences So i I entirely agree with you I think the other thing we we we we need to ensure what we are doing is recognising that we have deep expertise in some areas, but in fact, how we partner with other organisations for transformation and change has got to be sort of central to our approach. So I think there will be institutions that need a range of support.
00:17:26
Speaker
And how we blend our expertise in leadership development, educational excellence, governance effectiveness with other organisations that have different but complementary skills and capabilities, I think will be a really important part of our ah approach in the months and years ahead.
00:17:40
Speaker
Thank you. So just to finish off, Alistair, I think, and again, as we record this but this podcast this week, and to segue nicely into my next guest, I believe that tomorrow you're off to our teaching awards, where you'll be you'll be seeing the kind of some of the innovation that we're seeing amongst members. Am I right? so That's right. I'm looking forward to heading to Bristol for the teaching awards tomorrow evening and hearing... um of the fantastic examples across the sector of real amazing teaching excellence. So yes, that's that's tomorrow evening.
00:18:12
Speaker
Great. Thank you, Alistair. Thanks, Charles. Thank you. My next guest is Professor Leanne de Main.
Leading Transformation at Birmingham City University
00:18:20
Speaker
Leanne is about to take up the role of Dean at Birmingham City University's Business School.
00:18:25
Speaker
Leanne has a strong track record of leading academic transformation, ink including playing a key role in introducing and scaling block teaching models at a range of institutions.
00:18:38
Speaker
I'm going to speak with her this afternoon about the nature of educational change, what transformation sticks, and how collaborative leadership plays a role across institutional boundaries. And I'm just going to put in a quick disclaimer here. yeah Leanne and I have known each other for a number of years, and I'm always saying this to her, but I'm a massive fan of what Leanne does.
00:18:57
Speaker
And when I agreed to do the podcast, said, I've got to get Leanne onto the podcast. So Leanne, good afternoon. Thank you. Good afternoon. So you're about to take up your new leadership role at Birmingham City University in the Business School.
00:19:11
Speaker
And when people do these kinds of roles or they move into these roles, you know, what's exciting to you about the opportunity to lead transformation in a new context? Well, it's going to be exciting for me in that it's essentially a blank canvas to start from. There's something satisfying about, you know, starting with a clean inbox and and seeing where it takes you.
00:19:33
Speaker
and But what I found really interesting about BCU and what really led to me applying is their strategy. They've got a real strength in innovation and outwardly state that they're prepared to take risks to make a difference, that they're responding rapidly to address skills gaps and address societal issues. So it's go to be exciting for me to work in in that sort of environment with those underpinning values given the the change that I've led um in in the last few years as Alistair said earlier in in the climate as it is at the moment standing still is is not an option and change is doing things differently fundamentally differently um and I quite like this challenge of being deliberately development developmental so seeking out those areas to improve and tackling them head-on
00:20:21
Speaker
rather than papering over the cracks and just hoping that things will miraculously get better. So I often talk with my teams about lifting the rocks and not being afraid to find what might be under them. With BCU, like all universities, they're navigating the choppy waters that the sector faces.
00:20:38
Speaker
But I see this as an opportunity rather than a threat. So I am hoping to start at BCU with that level of optimism. Yeah, I think ah it's really interesting what you said about ah looking under the rocks, because the way i always express that when I work with colleagues is to say, if you work past if you walk past something that's of a low standard, you then enforce and set that low standard.
00:21:00
Speaker
And I think one of the kind of things about transformation and change and especially about leadership in particular is you kind of have to have that mixture of pragmatism but also you have to be willing to face things that aren't right because if you as the leader won't face things that aren't right nobody else will you know Absolutely. And this this sort of theory about being deliberately developmental is actively going out there and seeking the things that aren't working.
00:21:32
Speaker
So even if you think of yourself as an individual, you much prefer to do the things that you know that you're good at rather than addressing those sort nemesises that you really you really struggle to So being deliberately developmental is actively finding the things that aren't working and addressing them.
00:21:49
Speaker
and And through doing that, you're more likely to identify where the changes need to happen. and And part of the reason I wanted you on on this episode is, as I'm aware, and I'm just going to make our listeners aware, over the last couple of years, you've done some really exciting, interesting work around block teaching.
Implementing Block Teaching
00:22:07
Speaker
And you've done this and supported a number of institutions. You've been out to institutions to talk to them about how they could make use of block teaching, challenges of embedding block teaching, the opportunities of block teaching.
00:22:19
Speaker
And the reason I'm kind of interested in block teaching is it's a really nice example of ah a significant change to practice where you can see, and I've seen when I've tried to introduce it into places,
00:22:33
Speaker
real resistance from colleagues because colleagues are like, but we've always done things this way. This is always how things have worked. I've worked in other institutions. I've always had this kind of modular.
00:22:44
Speaker
So block teaching is interesting to me, not only as a model, but the kind of concerns it raises in staff because it represents a significant change to practice.
00:22:56
Speaker
And I guess my question to you about it is, you know, obviously, if we use block teaching as the example, what are your kind of thoughts about how do we get staff buy-in and get them involved if we're trying to make these really structural and systemic changes that things like block teaching represent?
00:23:19
Speaker
Yeah, and we had to really go back to understand why we needed to make this change. And straight out of a change management textbook, bringing people along with that is justifying why the change needs to happen. And for us, it was pretty simple. We had three key aims.
00:23:37
Speaker
One was to have courses that offered validity and currency. say we would have happier students and those students would successfully graduate. So we wanted a strong portfolio, enhanced and NSS and P-test results and better retention.
00:23:51
Speaker
And as you say, Block really was the um catalyst that made that change happen. um It could have been anything, I guess, but we knew that we needed to find ah new way of doing things and being disruptive.
00:24:04
Speaker
I often think about the ship of thesis, or actually probably more commonly we talk about Trigger's Broom, Only Fools and Horses. So, you know, the broom handle was replaced eight times, the broom head 14 times. Was it actually still the same broom?
00:24:16
Speaker
And I guess you can look at it in two ways here. We can keep tinkering the modules and the optionality to the point that the overall course no longer resembles the one that it originally intended to.
00:24:27
Speaker
Or is it that we keep trying to make incremental changes, but still falling back to what it once was? and We made this change happen really quickly. We did a full portfolio review and we used design sprint methodology then to take, um it was just over 100 programmes through full design and validation in about four months.
00:24:47
Speaker
So that the the pace of the change probably was one of the things that we first encountered as as a like a leadership issue because that is not normal in higher education generally they have quite lengthy processes and regulations and if I'm honest looking back on it now I'm not sure we would have actually achieved what we did if we'd taken our time over this we didn't have any pilots or any trial or periods there was no opportunity for anyone to get cold feet really and I think
00:25:18
Speaker
For some, that change did feel too quick. I spent a lot of time with teams talking, listening to their concerns. But what I noticed really pretty pretty early on, actually, was the sheer amount of myths and folklore that exist. um So many barriers that were apparent that actually I then talked about as imagined barriers.
00:25:41
Speaker
um And they were things that we were really quickly able to be able to overcome. So, for example, you know professional bodies won't allow it. We didn't we didn't find one professional body that didn't allow it.
00:25:52
Speaker
um The regulations wouldn't allow it. We write our own regulations. um You know, future students won't want, you know, they want lots of optionality. They don't. So I think quite a lot of those things we were able to overcome by doing some of that myth busting.
00:26:10
Speaker
We had practical challenges as well around how do we make the academic year work? How do we get feedback and assessment um results back in time? We did overcome them. There was one that we did forget, though, because our academic year is longer. We forgot to tell the canteen to stay open longer. So the students didn't know where to get their lunches from as we went as we went further on into the year.
00:26:32
Speaker
But I think generally it's about being able to identify what are the movable things and what are the immovable things and and then to take it from there. And I just want to pick up a couple of things in in what you said. And I thought it was really interesting in there about what you talked about.
00:26:51
Speaker
The speed of change helped make the change. And absolutely nobody wanted to live through the COVID period. And you and I were both working in business schools during the COVID period.
00:27:02
Speaker
But one thing I did take from that period was it really demonstrated that if a university wants to make changes quickly, it can. And I totally get that we need due diligence and proper process, I get that.
00:27:16
Speaker
But even accepting that, there was a speed of change during that that I thought, wow, this is going to kind of herald a change in how universities really rapidly change. Post-COVID, that's kind of gone away and we've gone back to the more ponderous.
00:27:31
Speaker
So I think it's really interesting what you say there about the kind of speed of change, because I guess as well, the other thing that sits behind this, you talk about the speed of change for colleagues being involved at the operational level.
Sustaining Change
00:27:45
Speaker
But if you're going to do that kind of systematic change you're talking about, you must have had to get the senior leadership team buy-in to say, okay, this is going to be a big change, but it's something we really need to do.
00:27:56
Speaker
And so that transformation is about getting the buy-in at different levels. and and that I put that down to being one of the successes that we had this was this came from the board of governors this was an institutionally sponsored led project we had we were fortunate enough to have a fantastic project team managing this with the various different task and finish groups and i can't remember all of the project acronyms that were used for it now um but it was it that
00:28:27
Speaker
made sure that the success of the project and made sure the change stuck. um And I guess that's one of the pieces of advice that I would give to anybody is make sure that you think right from the outset, what are the what are the things that we need to remove to stop us slipping back? So you gave the example of COVID then um and how fast things moved.
00:28:49
Speaker
But you know we quickly reverted back to doing lectures. We quickly reverted back to in-person exams. it was a change that happened, we perhaps have kept some of the good bits of that change, but not all the best bits, because it wasn't a change that we sustained through, um you know, preventing through regulations, through processes, preventing the move back to the status quo.
00:29:15
Speaker
So I think that's a key piece for me here. We rewrote our regulations for block. We redid our systems. We redid our academic calendar. There is no going back. you know it it does There's no way for somebody to you know replace the broom head and the and the brit and the handle 25 times because what was there before no longer exists.
00:29:37
Speaker
um And I think that's one of the key things that as a leader, you have to try and make sure that at the same time as as as not making the regulations and the processes so much so that you prevent future innovation. I guess there's a sort of balance there, but you do need to make sure that whatever you write into that is is looking forward and not looking behind you. Yeah.
00:30:00
Speaker
yeah Yeah, i think I think that's right. I think the way he was once described to me is you don't want change that slides off the culture, you know, and that and that's always stuck with me. yeah and In your work on Block, you you also worked with a series of other universities who were looking to introduce Block.
00:30:18
Speaker
And I guess that, for me, that's a really interesting thing because that's about organizational transformation when you're an external party. And one of the things I think that's really interesting about transformation in higher education is how you make use of external people coming into your organization and critical friends so your experience of kind of working with not your huge university if i can put it that way working with other universities to try and embed block i i guess you saw lots and lots of as you'd expect different cultural practices and different challenges in introducing blocks
00:30:55
Speaker
I did to some extent. There is a benefit of having an external person come in and talk about it because you could probably, um you know, you can walk away from the conversation afterwards. So you can probably put forward a few more provocations and you know, tackle some of those barriers and and with a little bit less of a restrictive approach, perhaps.
00:31:17
Speaker
So I'm under no illusion that some people have asked me to come in and be the antagonist and to sort of ask the difficult questions. But ultimately, the challenges were the same. And it's quite interesting, because when we started the review of our portfolio, we went out to our external stakeholders, so business advisory group, professional bodies, etc.
00:31:36
Speaker
And we asked them, what do they want from graduates? We asked them, What frustrates you about graduates today? What would make you hire one of our graduates? And they they were really clear. It wasn't about knowledge. They assume if you've got an accounting degree, you understand accounting.
00:31:51
Speaker
It was about skills, but it wasn't communication or teamwork or punctuality. It was about tolerating uncertainty. dealing with ambiguity, taking risks and working under minimal supervision.
00:32:03
Speaker
And interestingly, working across the sector and and speaking to so many different people in other institutions, I saw much of a need for these skills within universities too. So that dealing with ambi ambiguity, taking risks, you know, just having a go and doing things in a different way is something that we really need to try and harness those skills much more and and and as Alistair said for earlier if we don't we the the innovations they're coming in from the margins it's you know a knowledge economy model now and based on outcomes that's going to eclipse our traditional model of higher education and so that's that's something that's a challenge that all universities are going to be operating within so it it's it's that piece around the skills to do things in a different way the skills that we try and
00:32:52
Speaker
get our students to to to demonstrate when they leave us as graduates that actually, if we were to reflect upon ourselves as institutions, and even as individuals, there's some work for us to do there too.
Supporting Future Leaders
00:33:06
Speaker
um I'm going to do something slightly naughty as a podcast host in that ah for our listeners, ah when you do a podcast, you often give the participants the questions in advance. But i'm going to change one of my questions, Leanne, and put you little bit on the spot because I'm so interested in this. and One of the things I've always noticed about you and our interactions as kind of peers is you've always struck me as someone who's really supportive for what I'll call the next generation of of of leadership in in higher education.
00:33:39
Speaker
So i'm going to change the last question I was supposed to ask you because I'm really interested interested in this. What do you think is the role of senior leaders such as yourself in higher education in supporting the next generation of leaders, which is something I've seen you do time and time again?
00:33:54
Speaker
I guess it's easy to just look back on experiences that you've had and as a leader, ah as being led, as well as being a leader. And like many, I've had experiences of really good leadership and, you know, not so great leadership over time.
00:34:11
Speaker
But then I think as ah as a leader, I look back at the the people that have... not just mentored me, but advocated and sponsored me along the way. So rather than, so you know, making suggestions as a mentor, would you know, you might want to try and have a look at, open that door for me and said, let me introduce you to this person.
00:34:32
Speaker
Let me provide you with this opportunity. So I think that's one of the key things that leaders should do today. It's more than words, it's have its actions as a leader. And you know getting people to work together and showing them what that next step must look like. Because that's where, as a leader myself, I've had success, where people have ah given me that step up and given me that platform rather than pointing me in the direction of where I might find it.
00:34:58
Speaker
So that's quite key for me. And the other thing is you know and And I say this now because I feel quite old that you know some of the people that the um I'm leading now weren't born when I graduated. So I i do feel really old. And i you know when I tell our students that i did my degree without the Internet, it makes me feel ancient.
00:35:16
Speaker
um But ah there's so many... you know i I called them block stars when I was at the university, those that just embraced it and went with it because it was a new thing and it was really innovative.
00:35:28
Speaker
And there's a point where you have to step back and say, this generation of of of future leaders that are coming through know more than me. they you know They know a lot more than me about the sector. They know more than me about how students work.
00:35:41
Speaker
want to learn how they want to be managed and so there's a point where you have to step aside and and hand those responsibilities to those people whether they have the the title of a leader or a manager or not just giving them those experiences and acknowledging that they you know they have a position that you can't you know, they have a place that you can't exist in because of the the skills that they've got and the knowledge that they've got about working with this next generation.
00:36:08
Speaker
So, you know, much of being a leader for me is about recognising that talent and stepping aside and and letting them own that place themselves, because quite frankly, they're better at it than I am.
00:36:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that piece really resonated with me when you said about places that you can't exist. And as a white middle-aged male, um I try and avoid that thing that happens where I try and be a omnipresent and represent myself as I know i can work out and know everything about everything.
00:36:39
Speaker
And it's kind of, I think it is really important just to acknowledge there are things that, Other people are better at. So you step aside to allow them to be better at. I think it was ah think it was the vice chancellor of Brighton, Donna Whitehead, who I saw speak once and she said, you need to maximize your strengths.
00:36:59
Speaker
and minimise your weaknesses. And it always feels to me this is an example of that. Just kind of hand off and get out of the way when there are people better to do things. and I think I was at that same talk. Yes. I was actually because one of the things I remember Donna saying was surround yourself with the people that know all the stuff that you don't.
00:37:16
Speaker
And I was like, right, OK. So, you know, as long as I've got a good finance director and I've got a good people partner, You know, if i've got those people around me, then I can operate knowing that as a team, it you know, we we work really well together. And I guess one of the other things that i try to do is, a you know, help people understand you know,
00:37:38
Speaker
You can have accountability and ownership, but without blame. And I think blame is such a toxic thing. So I'll often say to my team, we'll try it. Let's try it. We don't know what the outcome going to be. we'll We'll embrace this uncertainty. If it doesn't work out, then it's okay.
00:37:52
Speaker
We'll adapt it. We'll try again. If it all goes horribly wrong, then we go down together. So it's very much about having that balance between saying, this is, this is your place
Podcast Conclusion
00:38:01
Speaker
to stand now. And this is, this is your opportunity to do this, but don't worry. Cause if it doesn't work, I'm still here and I've got your back and I'll work with you to fix it somehow.
00:38:10
Speaker
So it's, it's, it's that omnipresence, I guess, as a leader so that you're there, but not there so that they, they don't feel that they're being managed, but that they know that they're operating in a, in a safe space.
00:38:23
Speaker
Yeah. Um, Yeah, that's you you've just, ah as always, you've given me so much to think about. um Leanne, thank you for giving your time so generously this afternoon because for our listeners, Leanne is actually on holiday and has popped in from Cornwall to do this with me. So thank you very much for that, Leanne.
00:38:42
Speaker
It's been a pleasure. Thank you So thanks again to Alistair Jarvis and Professor Leanne de Mane for joining us on this episode of Talking Transformation. If today's conversations resonate with you,
00:38:56
Speaker
don't forget that our leadership-focused member benefits are designed to support the challenges we've been discussing. From our new Leadership Survival Series, our Executive Leadership Webinars to our updated Leadership Framework.
00:39:10
Speaker
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00:39:23
Speaker
Until next time, thank you for listening and keep leading.