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Episode 1: Access, Retention, Mattering and Belonging
397 Plays3 months ago
Our first episode dives into a topic that affects every student on campus, access, retention, mattering and belonging.
Stuart is joined by Juliette Morgan, Senior Consultant at Advance HE, Dr Hannagh McGinley, Assistant Professor in Education at Mary Immaculate College, Professor Kate Strudwick, Professor of Student Engagement/Dean of Teaching and Learning at University of Lincoln, Lynette Carver, Head of Education and Student Experience at University of Nottingham, and Alex Tansell, Education and Student Experience Manager at University of Nottingham.
We capture insights into the challenges faced and the excellent work taking place within institutions.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Student Success Pod
00:00:18
Speaker
Hello and welcome to our podcast Student Success Pod. I'm your host, Stuart Norton, and this is the start of a new podcast where every month we will discuss core thematic areas ah related to student success. I will typically be joined by a colleague and co-host with subject matter specialism in the area under review, and we will have guests from across the sector talking to the theme from their perspective and sharing insights with you, our listeners.
Meet the Hosts and Guests
00:00:42
Speaker
Today, we're diving into a topic that affects every student on campus, access, retention, mattering, and belonging.
00:00:48
Speaker
I'm joined this month by fellow host, Juliette Morgan. Hello, everybody. It's nice to be here today. Thanks, Stuart. And we'll be chatting with Hannah McGinley of Mary Immaculate College. Hi, Hannah. Hi, Stuart. How are you? Very well, thank you. Thank you so much for joining us. Kate Strudwick from the University of Lincoln. Hello. Hi, everybody. Thanks, Kate. And we're also joined by colleagues Lynette Carver and Alex Tunsel from Nottingham University. Hi, Lynette. Hi, great to be here.
00:01:19
Speaker
And hello, Alex. Hello. Good afternoon. Well, good afternoon for us, but hello to the rest of you. Thank you, colleagues, and really do appreciate your time.
The Biscuit Debate: A Controversial Study
00:01:28
Speaker
and So let's get started. I think the first thing to do by way of easing us into the series is start with something a little lighthearted. Well, maybe it isn't, but we'll see. Has anyone seen the research around Dunkin Biscuits in hot drinks? It came out a few years ago now. Are colleagues familiar with this?
00:01:49
Speaker
No, I'm not familiar with the research, Stuart, but I am familiar with biscuits and dunking into hot tea. That's what I like to hear Juliet. Well, controversially, it placed the Jaffa cake as the number one dunker in terms of how well the biscuit dunked. I can see there that cake, you're shaking your head. Absolutely, because we all know and the clue is in the name that a Jaffa cake is actually a cake.
00:02:16
Speaker
um And and for for those listeners who who may be more familiar with the the big biscuit brand McVitie's, they actually took the HMRC to court in 1991 and they won because cakes are VAT, Value Added Tax Exempts within the UK and biscuits aren't, you have to pay your tax. But McVitie's actually took the HMRC to court and they won.
00:02:39
Speaker
um So this ah this research I think is fundamentally flawed. But anyhow, this got me thinking about our podcast and a friendly icebreaker and the concept of edgy biscuit was born. um i feel I feel like we need like a nice jingle for this. And so if that's something we can perhaps get arranged for for the edgy biscuits section, but actually this is quite serious. um you You may or may not be familiar. you You can see that I've spent a lot of time researching this, that McBitties actually have a chief dunking officer, a CDO, Dr. Helen Pincher. She has a PhD in stem cell biology, no less. And in January this year, published her results in terms of the longest time you should be dunking your biscuits for.
Mattering and Belonging in Education
00:03:22
Speaker
So this is very, very serious. um And apparently only a third of biscuit eaters actually dunk their biscuits, or at least only a third admit to dunking them.
00:03:31
Speaker
So with that, and without any further ado, colleagues, I'm i' i'm going to go come and ask you, what is your favourite biscuit and are you a dunker? ah Kate, i'm I'm looking straight at you, I'm going to come to you. Yes, I like, well, I like biscuits a lot as ah as a general comment, but my favourite biscuit would be a chocolate hobnob, which I would stand firm. That's got a good dunkability. It's got a good structure um and it doesn't fall off into your tea or coffee. You can hold it there for quite a while so the chocolate melts.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, it's not dropped to the bottom of the hot... Yeah, it's kind of, but I think that I'm willing to overlook that. Okay, okay. I would say. I like the notion of chocolate melting into the said hot drink as well. I think you've you've got me on that one, to be honest.
00:04:25
Speaker
that's good So go on then Juliet, what's your favourite biscuit and are you a dunker? Well clearly you're a dunker. I am a biscuit dunker, I don't eat too many biscuits actually but when I do I do like to dunk a biscuit so um I am quite specific on my biscuits, it comes from a certain part of the world so I like a Cornish no less chocolate shortbread um because it's super super buttery And so you get a really super buttery, sugary taste and then you dunk it into the the hot tea and um yeah, the the sort of collision of those two concepts, the hot tea and the buttery shortbread, ah do just that, collide and make for a great experience. There we go, there we go. Can and can we and can we top that? Alex, I'm going to come to you next. So I am a biscuit fiend, self-proclaimed.
00:05:18
Speaker
um pretty much any and all biscuits to be honest. I'm going to have to go with the humble custard cream though. listen um like I'm seeing a lot of frowns which I don't appreciate and I disagree and I will absolutely pick these discussions up at a later date. The middle goes slightly soft but you've still got some integrity in the biscuit.
00:05:39
Speaker
i You've got like a joy of crunchy the side with that softness. I won't really be told otherwise I can compromise on a ball then but the Custard creams still topping the tables for me Fair Oh Custard creams bring me back to my university days being in hall that actually was the last time that there there was custard creams going around ah hanna Hannah, you you're sitting there, looking really poised. hang Yeah, I'd forgotten about custard creams. When we were kids, we would buy biscuits for quantity over quality. So a custard cream and bourbon used to get into the mix. We'd just want a sugar hate, so we'd we'd buy a big pack of biscuits as opposed to a bar of chocolate. um Like Juliet, I wouldn't be a big a biscuit eater, but when I do, I like Tim Tams. I think it's Tim Tams, isn't it? The Australian biscuits.
00:06:27
Speaker
oh And I discovered them during on pregnancy and I drank a lot of tea and had a lot of biscuits while I was pregnant and haven't really revisited that phase of my life since then. so ah But if I was going to be dunking in biscuit, it would be certainly a symptom.
00:06:41
Speaker
Well, I've never ever had a Tim Tam. Well, you were only able to get them in Australia, I believe, which is where they originate from. But Alex and I were talking about this a week or so ago. And Alex, you are right. The Tim Tam is now available on a large UK based supermarket chain shelf because I saw it myself.
00:07:04
Speaker
Well, I was going to say for our Australian listeners, if you are listening, please do send across a packet of Tim Tams I need to taste, but I will accept them from the yeah UK if they're available in UK stores now as well. And Lynette, by no means least, your favourite biscuit. And are you a Dunk? i feel I feel like I can ask you that. Are you a Dunk, Lynette?
00:07:21
Speaker
that so fourth christianism I think for me, ah I would have to go with a classic Scottish shortbread, ah which brings back all kinds of nostalgic feelings about having them with my granddad. So um that for me is the absolute king of biscuits.
00:07:42
Speaker
However, now that Jules has talking about spoken about um cornish shortbread, I feel like I need to try this, so I will be doing that for sure. I'm not really a big fan of tea, so um I will excuse myself from the dunking conversation, but I do love a coffee and I don't mind a bit of a profuse. So that's where I start. Oh, perfect. i think I think I feel a very, um very thorough research study coming on here and we might have to start a little league table going with our guests on that on biscuits we go through either so I'm pretty gonna stop now because the the rabbit hole goes deep you can see that I spent a lot of time researching this but it's probably now about time to talk about student success and so as I say today we're talking about access retention mattering and belonging and first things first what do these terms mean to people ah Julia I'm gonna come to you to to to start us
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, thanks Stuart. So I'm going to take us down the mattering and belonging rabbit hole and ah talk about the interchangeability of the terms that are used in the sector at the moment. um I come from the School of Thought whereby mattering and belonging are two distinctly separate concepts but actually um speak ah to similar ah constructs and and and feelings. So for me, um to define some terminology, mattering is about the fact that we need to recognise individuals to feel recognised themselves out of value and important within a community, whichever community that that might well be that they're involved in. And for me, when people feel that they matter, we know that they're more likely to engage actively
00:09:28
Speaker
and feel more and empowered to contribute to the community that that they're existing in. Of note also from a mattering perspective for me is around the fact that um mattering is a really important concept when we think about fostering mental well-being and resilience because there are many schools of thought for which I sign up to that mattering validates an individual's presence and their input.
00:09:53
Speaker
That brings me to belonging and the interchangeability which with which the sector are using those terms. um Belonging for me is slightly different and belonging is around a feeling of being able to fit in or being an integral part of a group or community.
00:10:09
Speaker
I think it's a deeper, more um like intrinsic connection that than simply somebody being included. ah So for me belonging also encompasses feelings of acceptance and value for who you are authentically as yourself.
00:10:27
Speaker
again like mattering it's really crucial for mental and emotional well-being and I really advocate and support for that um especially within higher education institutions and for students where people might spend significant amounts of time i in their lives in those communities that they're existing in and travelling travelling along that journey. So When and individuals, I think, feel that they truly belong somewhere, we know that they're more likely to be motivated and to be engaged and to be more productive. And there is some school of thought that suggests that's because they view the environment to where they belong as one where they can authentically thrive. And I really like that concept.
00:11:10
Speaker
It's been quite a lot of of conversation amongst the people that are here as the guests on the podcast today, as you might expect, around mattering and belonging. And ah I'm going to come to Kate ah just to to respond really to to some of that that construct as we get kicked off in terms of defining those terms, because I know, Kate, you've done a lot of of of work and research around these two two concepts. Yeah, thank you. and I completely agree with everything you've said um already, but I i would stand firm and I'm saying this as as someone who's worked as an academic for over 25 years in saying it remains a grey area.
00:11:51
Speaker
I think mattering and belonging more so possibly belonging actually and especially when we look in there I think there's more research and more work that's been done regarding belonging whereas mattering is becoming as important and is is being more researched as as we speak really.
00:12:08
Speaker
because of the overlap so there's some real common themes but I do I don't think there is a single definition and the reason being is um it's because they both encompass ah very common feelings um or as you said jewels of being connected being included being supported And that would be in all aspects of being part of a university, so the learning journey. So that could be your um kind of your your location, the campus, if you're a campus based um provider, it could be in terms of
00:12:43
Speaker
the um the the quality of of ah of the educational offer of or of you know the the um the courses that are being provided by that institution. It could be through the level of support you get through personal tutoring or through well-being because I do feel because there is no single definition to me it seems that there's a real alignment with how we understand student engagement as well. And so that's what I'm just seeing because often ah research has been very clear that student engagement is in terms of a definition is kind of slippery. as bit It's been kind of and I think the same as is kind of is is an observation we can say about belonging and mattering as well. I think they're they're umbrella terms and that's how I'm applying them in my application to
00:13:34
Speaker
with regards to research and providing those um that sense of belonging at university.
Access and the Importance of Personalization
00:13:39
Speaker
But definitely I think it's it's a grey area and it's very subjective. Thanks, Kate. and It's really interesting. And i like I like this term umbrella term because sometimes we we can hang too much on definitions and whether something fits or whether something doesn't. So it's really interesting.
00:13:58
Speaker
um Before we get into the crux of this, I think it's probably helpful to look at defining all the terms we're talking about today. um And one in particular I'd like to come to you for, Hannah, is around access um and specifically from your experiences in your own research as well.
00:14:15
Speaker
Sure, I guess um when i when I think about access to it, I think about the removal of barriers. And um I think it's really important that we look at the barriers that exist for people on a really individual level, as opposed to groups, because of the way the intersectionality of inequality. So I guess what I mean by that, in my own research, looking at travellers' experiences of further and higher education, some travellers would need a a lot of support in order to improve access, whereas other travellers may not need as much support depending on their own personal situation. So, for example, a lone parent from the traveller community is going to need you to remove barriers that are very different to a traveller who is not a lone parent, who who has the support of a partner, the support of a family, or who indeed isn't a parent at all, and also
00:15:07
Speaker
the financial financial am supports that would be required for students from different, depending on their own unique circumstances, I suppose. ah So I guess this this idea that one ah size fits all, you know we need to really ah move away from that idea and adapt a more intersectional approach to inclusion and to improve on access ah for students. So, yeah, I don't know if that's... I really like the fact that um your response ah connects us back to the other concepts of belonging and mattering. For me, um I agree with everything you said. it It really encompasses the notion of um everybody, regardless of who you are, having that fair shot.
00:15:54
Speaker
I'm going to use that term, a fair shot at whatever it is that you're in pursuance of. um For this, it's around education and access to educational opportunity. But that fair shot looks very different to different people and different groups of people. um And so I really like the way that that you've communicated um that that construct of access in that way around, you know, enabling ah not a one size fits all, but a more personalized fair shot.
00:16:25
Speaker
that takes account ah of um everybody's difference, but yet doesn't limit that opportunity. I think that's i think that's really important. Yeah, I think it's really, it's really apparent that you can't disaggregate these terms. And we see this when we talk around student success, full stop, what is success and how do you talk around all these different themes about tying in, you know, assessments, a classic one, you know, internationalizing, student engagement, etc, etc. So it is, it is a yeah is a very hard area to navigate, and especially for for for listeners who who are interested and perhaps come into this fresh as well. So it's really helpful to have these definitions and start to to uncover some of these complexities. ah Alex and Lynette, um either or both of you who who would like to start us, we're talking about retention, another clearly integrated area. Yeah.
00:17:18
Speaker
um Well, I mean, actually you know, what I was just reflecting on some of the things that Hannah and Kate have said as well, actually, and I i think that they're really important. And they also link with um how we define retention. But I think, um you know, in the sector, we often tie ourselves in not trying to define something or trying to be really specific about what we mean but actually I think when we're talking particularly well around these ah these ah areas but particularly when we're thinking about belonging I actually think it's quite important we haven't specifically defined it for exactly the reasons that you were saying in that it is should be a personalized experience and it you know I think it should be flexible more than anything um and I think we should acknowledge that um
00:18:02
Speaker
Belonging can look different to absolutely everyone and it can change depending on where you are in your journey as well.
Retention and the 'Wobble Week' Concept
00:18:08
Speaker
So I thought it was just really interesting and I was thinking about how we, as I say, spend a lot of time thinking about um putting things into boxes so it's nice to actually have some freedom in this in this area. But coming back to retention obviously, um I think, you know, it's retention is it's not um I mean, I'm using Alex's words here because he's absolute specialist here and when we talk about retention. But um it's really important that it's about continued engagement and about, I guess, making sure that students have what they need at specific points. And actually, we're doing a lot of work right now for ah for one week, which I think most people recognize that terminology.
00:18:50
Speaker
in the sector, hopefully everyone does. But um you know we put a lot of focus in at this time because statistically speaking, it's the the most um likely time that students are going to drop out of university but actually as we've already covered there's so many things that can affect a student's experience the way they feel as though they belong or they matter they're at risk of dropping out at many points during um during their university experience so it's important we have infrastructure and support and scaffolding around that um throughout but um Alex please please build on what I'm saying because as I said you are fantastic in this area
00:19:27
Speaker
Thanks, Lynette. I think one of the main things when we talked earlier about disaggregating different things for me, I really struggle to separate retention from transition. I almost see them as a slight of ah a bit of a mirror, but they work very complementarily.
00:19:44
Speaker
um Because a successful transition to me enhances the likelihood of retention within students. And We often think about transition just being welcome week or arrival period or whatever it's called, wherever we are. But it's not just those few weeks as soon as a student starts their studies with us. It continues. It's that transition into their first exam period. It's the transition into second year. It continues. And I think this is where it's good as well that we're not overly strict with how we define things because that transition point looks so different to different students.
00:20:23
Speaker
And coming back to Hannah's point of looking more from an intersectional perspective, that transition is going to look even more different when we start talking about different students from different marginalised groups. And yeah, i'm ah I'm a big fan of avoiding boxes that we we put people into. um But I think retention is about that continued engagement and not necessarily um just keeping them in a lecture theatre looking at ah a slideshow.
00:20:54
Speaker
Yeah, I think that continued engagement is a really, really valid point. I am just going to come back and ask you to explain a little bit more about Wobble Week. I'm just conscious that that perhaps not all of our listeners are aware of Wobble Week. I know some universities have it, but it it may come under different terms or phrases, and indeed it may be at different points. But who who who would like to who would like to take that one and tell me a little bit more about Wobble Week?
00:21:19
Speaker
but I guess I can start as I threw it into the discussion. I thought, I actually, I'm not sure if this is a nationally recognized title, but I think most people will be aware that around week six of studies, that is the point that, you know, things have settled down from welcome week, reality is starting to kick in, you know, you're into your lectures and your teaching time, there might be the first assessments out all pieces of coursework that are popping up ah that need your attention and it's the time when students are most likely and I'm using air quotes here but wobble um so ah certainly at Nottingham we have a defined wobble week where we tend to put on belonging, inclusion, um those types of events
00:22:08
Speaker
with the idea of obviously supporting students but really what we're doing is we're trying to make sure that there's a community feeling there and that students have access to um resources, support systems um and infrastructure to help them succeed and I guess ultimately feel as if though as though they can continue their studies. So um it sounds a little superficial and um I don't know ah can't think of the right word to define it define it but really what it actually is doing is something really important it's about creating community. Yeah can I just come in I mean I wanted to reassure you it doesn't sound superficial at all I think it absolutely says what it does on the tin it that is what it is and anyone who's worked in in higher education institutions know that and we will appreciate that that week six and
00:23:02
Speaker
And I just wanted to flag up, her you know, how it does relate to a sense of belonging, because, you know, lots of research has identified that, as you said, maybe when students are getting to to week six, that, you know, assessments might be due and they feel quite perhaps quite settled in in their accommodation, in in their seminar groups and, you know, whatever. um But it's also, it's so integral that they feel that they they belong at the university. And that's kind of where we need to do this wraparound support and make sure that those that don't feel like they're settled, um those that are perhaps perhaps missing home, because it's
00:23:41
Speaker
you know around that time it could be when when students ah ah ah you know maybe have visited home for the first time or had visits to you know where where they're studying and then it's that kind of that anxiety perhaps that comes from from you know whether it's carers or friends or or parents or whoever going back and and leaving their life after a weekend of kind of showing them that new city that they're exploring.
00:24:04
Speaker
um And that that's I'm just thinking as you were talking about Wobble Week, how it does come in so much to that feeling of of of being included and connected and part of your wider campus, whether that's physically, you know, and in terms of your accommodation and one way of studying, but equally the city itself and and how you feel in relation to to that in in your in your new adventure that you're just starting out, you know. So I just think it was really interesting that I, you know, as you were talking, I was like, I absolutely get it. We don't call it Wobble Week, but I bet if I went into any um any corridor ah ah at Lincoln and said, you know, to many academics, would you know what I meant if I said Wobble? Everyone would just go, yeah, absolutely. They'll get it.
00:24:51
Speaker
And I agree. I think that's what I really like the term wobble week and not as identifiable for a week in in its entity. I think, Stuart, you touched on this actually just ah in the UK, particularly culturallyly culturally, we we can identify with someone having a wobble, you're having a wobble. um And that's not in a derogatory sense, but that indicates that your stability is shifted.
00:25:15
Speaker
its um um What I really like about that, and I agree with you Kate, around it, it draws in um ah issues around belonging and mattering, is that you can wobble at any point in that journey and therefore be a risk for retention, for example, or a risk that you drop out because you didn't feel that you didn't that you belonged because you were having a wobble around.
00:25:39
Speaker
the fact that you had to go out to placement or the fact that you didn't particularly feel like you'd found your tribe and Alex to bring in sort of that that transition that that you referenced I think wobble, belong, matter and transition are all tied up into each other because transition can be a wobbly process can't it? It's not just about find doing something new and making an active choice to do something new and to transition into that be that year to year or into university or not or into a placement or not and so on and so forth. It's about once you transition you need to find your place in that new space and place and environment and that can cause even you know all of us to wobble for different reasons and so it ties it back to, I can't remember who said it, um
00:26:31
Speaker
about the fact that this is really personalised and so brings in that notion of one size doesn't fit all my wobble isn't your wobble and I might have a wobble at a completely different period of time because of something totally different to other people here today and so for me it highlights this notion of and I know it's used in the sector and people like it and some people don't, um this notion of kind of where you truly belong and being on a journey to find that tribe or find that place or transition into something new and be settled there and not wobbly and that is about
00:27:10
Speaker
a feeling of personal discovery and growth. It is also about a network of support through transition and when you have transitioned. And it is also about feeling hugely connected and not disconnected to the new place or new environment or new thing or new aspect of study or new friendships or new accommodation that you find yourself really rooted within or trying to set down those really hard and fast routes that you want to stick so that you no longer wobble.
Economic Challenges and Student Well-being
00:27:41
Speaker
um So I think it's a really nice term um and it it softens it somewhat because we know that wobble can be really hard, emotionally traumatic and require, you know,
00:27:55
Speaker
different support for different people and can be the point where either that support retains a student or that support isn't effective and there are other wobbles that mean that there's support that's ineffective and not retained or effective and other wobbles mean that student goes on a different route and a different path. So I like the the notion of being wobbly And almost like um it's a weevil. I've got a weevil in my head, you know, where they used to wobble from side to side. And eventually that wobble stops and you find stability. It doesn't take very much just to prod that, to make yourself wobble again. And ah I quite like that in terms of higher education, I have to say. Thank you, Julia. I think i think what's coming across
00:28:41
Speaker
in particular is is that individualized approach, you know, whilst we can have all of these activities and and it's fantastic and some brilliant examples there. um It's also making sure that that we do recognize that students are individuals. And Hannah, it was something you touched upon, certainly talking about your own research around access and saying that actually it needs to be an individualized approach. I was just wondering how um but those those trends and themes and and and your findings are influencing the approaches um that you're taking yourself at Mary Immaculate College? but I don't know if you're familiar with our college job, but we're specifically a teacher training college. So um we're we're quite a small college here in Thurgoods and Tipperary. We have a bigger college over in Limerick and they do post-primary school, they train post-primary school teachers and primary school teachers, but we're specifically um focused on post-primary school training and it's a Bachelor of Education that we do. ah So the students come in at a fairly early age. So we know that there's a huge um
00:29:39
Speaker
push to diversify initial teacher education and you know because we know that it's problematic the lack of diversity that the student the teacher population isn't reflecting our student population here in the Irish context is that we're unlike the UK I guess we've had ah inward migration for the first time ever since the early 2000s so that that's been a huge thing for us here in the Irish context to see those levels of diversity within the country um So we're specifically looking at trying to improve diversity and in teacher education here. And that is problematic for a number of reasons. And if I'm looking at a community as small as the travel community, this is such a small community to draw from.
00:30:19
Speaker
um And of course, they don't ah want to go into initial teacher education, which is fair enough. And there's reasons why people wouldn't wouldn't want to go into teacher education. ah But I guess my own work has and has informed the context, has informed the the broader environment in the sense that and the research that I recently published looking at travellers' experiences further in higher education has been used by the University College of Dublin because that research highlighted that it was really important to look at traffickers in terms of access, but participation, retention and progression across the continuum of education. it it wasn't like It wouldn't suffice to just look at these issues at third level because obviously the problems have started much earlier on. So, UCD have been using the research to inform the different strategies that they have um employed ah
00:31:07
Speaker
to to target travellers from primary school right up to post-primary school and it's also in informed the context in the sense that and it the research highlighted that it was important to bring families along because of that transgenerational trauma that travellers have experienced within the educational field of education and um that you had to work with families, you had to work with parents as well as the children in order to try and build trust but amongst education providers again ah to try and get families to come in the door to feel that these were safe spaces for the children. It's really difficult if you're a member of the travel community to hand your child over to non-travelers because of the harm that has been done in the past in both spaces. um So there's a lot of work that needs to be done to try and build and the bridges amongst, you know, between those communities to build trust ah between the communities. um So I suppose my my work is
00:32:01
Speaker
been doing a bit when I'm delighted to be able to say that that it has has had an impact here definitely in the national context in terms of informing and the work we do to try and improve access, participation, retention and progression for the travel community. And I think one of the things that came out as well was that progression was really important to look at because you know there's no point in talking to a community like mine about attending education, if you don't see the benefits of education, and we're the first generation to have benefited from education, but on us that ah is matched by work, which which is why we we you know we all go to college because we want to gain full employment at the end of it all.
00:32:43
Speaker
um lovely in all its educational journeys, we all want you know to gain something from it. um So I think it was really important to highlight success within the community and again that stuff that I see, UCD has has put a call out to travellers to do a short video, those that have been successful because of education and to talk about their different professions and that has been informed again by the by the research that I've done. So I think um yeah we're still at the fairly early stages of improving outcomes for travellers in education. But there's a lot of really, really good work being done at the national level, your local level and also at the national level. Yeah, thank you, Hannah. I'm really powerful. And and again, thank you for creating that link through to progression and and specifically employability as one of those key areas. Again, you know, we we come back to it can be reductive to come up with a ah definition for some of these terms. and But ultimately, there there there is that positive trajectory, that student success.
00:33:39
Speaker
whatever that may look like in terms of what we're aiming for. Just as you were talking, Hannah, it was really making me see the value of mattering and belonging. And Kate, I was going to ask from your own experiences, are there any trends or themes you're seeing as you're taking forward your work at Lincoln that are starting to come out? Yeah, absolutely, actually.
00:34:01
Speaker
This was something we noticed, and it it seemed very timely, obviously, because this was when we were designing and developing our teaching, learning, student experience strategies, probably 18 months ago, something like that, two years ago. And it was around the time that I think belonging started to become, if I can say a bit of a buzzword, and belonging started to become spoken about, whether it that be in in publications or in webinars or in conference papers or etc. And then obviously it was it was helped along the way with the study um in 21 by wonky and and that really started to get those of us that were
00:34:46
Speaker
responsible for enhancing student experiences and and student success and having that impact and evaluating student success and where and how belonging would fit into that. So what we what we saw at Lincoln was ah coming kind of coming out of the pandemic and I'm sure this is a very common theme that everyone here would recognise that you know students are time poor you know students are coming to university um knowing that they are doing this in a in a time which economically is quite challenging so you know cost of living in in the UK and elsewhere but you know in terms of to fully engage with their experience at university are you know they probably are going to have to work
00:35:38
Speaker
um not just part-time hours, but we're seeing students working more than part-time hours, pretty much full-time hours. And then sometimes the decisions they have to make as to when how much can I engage with that particular module, for argument's sake, if I'm working till two in the morning and the lecture is at nine o'clock. And obviously, and I think ah this does link in with the transitions, actually, because it is a bit of a mindset.
00:36:07
Speaker
a lot of the time, but it's also just how much can you keep doing that um because something's got to give. And so we were seeing that, you know, with with our student cohorts, they obviously diversified a lot um following cope following COVID. um There was the rise in international cohorts that we saw, um but also a lot of how students would anticipate what they would see as success in their eyes.
00:36:34
Speaker
I think was affected a lot by external factors or drivers that are out with our control with it within those of us that are working within within institutions, um which meant that we had to be really flexible and really adaptable with how we decided what was our educational offer and how are we going to put together program support um through our strategy to ensure that belonging became part of the mindset and part of our culture. So I do think again I'm going to go back and say it's no one size fits all which is why like and I think different institutions have put together a diverse
00:37:15
Speaker
models, frameworks and where and how belonging might fit into that. So it doesn't come into one one framework or one model of student as partners for argument's sake. um But it needs to be shown in your strategic priorities and they will ever flow and change and they're not one consistent line. they They need to be adaptable to the challenges that we see that are out of our control.
00:37:41
Speaker
I think you hit the hit the nail on the head there and um you know we've obviously i mean obviously the reason Alex and I are here is because we've done a lot of work around um belonging in particular but ah perhaps Quite separately, we also started doing some work into how the cost of living crisis was affecting students. We probably started this about 18 months or so or go ago now. And I think obviously we felt there was enough of a reason to start doing some research and to understand what was going on.
00:38:12
Speaker
but I think was probably still accurate to say we were shocked by the responses that came in. um And um that has really guided how we do everything um over the last, well, ever since we we did that very first survey, ah which would have been March 23. So we now periodically survey our um our students in our faculty.
00:38:34
Speaker
and um we we asked them a range of things about um how hardship is affecting them and our colleagues are becoming more and more interested particularly around the paid work ah situation because we found that there were a significant proportion of students who not only were undertaking paid work but they were actually skipping do that. And then that feeds into everything. It feeds into you know retention, it feeds into participation, your abilities to succeed. um and And obviously we know that um that all of these are interconnected with how you feel about yourself and your mental well-being as well. So ah for us, that's been ah a really significant theme that we've put a lot of energy into. And it means that we've changed the way that we work. So um you know we we heavily mandate, for example,
00:39:23
Speaker
that if we can employ a student to support us in a piece of work, then we do
Cultural Change in Education: Fostering Inclusion
00:39:27
Speaker
it. um and um Again, we've been very clear with some of our ah with our colleagues and with anyone who's asked us about this research, about just how much this can impact a student's ability to succeed and engage with their work. So we've we've recently just started adding a couple of other questions, but one was, I think, in we asked last year, and and I think we've got it in the in the one that we're due to circulate in the next month or so, but it's about um
00:39:57
Speaker
your mental well-being, how hardship affects that. But we're also asking about um your sense of belonging as well, so we'll be able to see if, well, hopefully be able to draw on some kind of connection there, which we haven't been able to do before.
00:40:12
Speaker
but um I mean, Alex has has been absolutely fundamental to this work and it's been great, the two of us working working together on this. um so ah So yeah, it's I just think that is something that we're not talking too much about our sector at the minute, but I think it's becoming a ah bigger and bigger problem and we can't ignore it.
00:40:33
Speaker
Lynette, can I just sort of jump in in terms of both you and Kate and actually Hannah um started us out down down this route. um I think what becomes really clear listening to to all of you is about ah this this culture. I think um it does come back to the creation. Lynette, you just said we're not talking about the sector but In a higher education space, it does also become about how are we creating a culture for our students that is predominantly around safety and trust. Hannah, I've i've done quite a lot of work, vis-a-vis trauma-informed pedagogy, um which, as as you know and as our listeners may or may not know,
00:41:19
Speaker
um Adopting a trauma-informed pedagogy approach is around all about creating a culture of safety and trust that phosphors people to be included and to feel that they're empowered within that environment and it prioritises relationship and community connections in environments that offer flexible and supported learning that encourage for students self-care and well-being And therefore, I think what we're what what we're starting to talk about in under the guise of belonging and mattering and access and it's it's not a guise, it is actually to expose the fact that some of these pedagogical approaches
00:42:04
Speaker
um are at the front and centre of the needs of institutions to perhaps reimagine and rethink where it's where they're able to, the practice around how do we create that culture that enables belonging and mattering and wellbeing and therefore by enabling those things and they're individualised gives us an ability to be able to offer opportunity for whoever um and ah not close any of those opportunistic doors and then once the opportunity is offered and they're with us to also be able to create spaces where they feel they can come and engage as Kate you were saying at the level to which they need to be able to engage either um with their programmes of study
00:42:50
Speaker
and or the extracurricular environments that might contribute to their well-being and belonging and feelings of mattering alongside their registered degree programs, whatever they may well be at FE level, at undergrad and also at postgraduate level too. And I think there's a real need for us to perhaps support institutions to help reimagine how we how we effectively, particularly post-COVID,
00:43:19
Speaker
create those cultures of trust and safety for students to thrive within and certainly for me listening to to you that's that's what's coming through also of interest. I think it's a commitment isn't it? I think you're right it is about reimagining but it's a term that's being used a lot in my institution currently and I'm sure it's probably the same and in others if they've gone through a recent restructure ah various ah various um aspects where we're we're looking at our strategy 18 months on, following, as say, kind of a restructure from four colleges into two and and various, is is, you know, it's a new size and shape. And I think, as I said, that, you know, we need to, and what
00:44:07
Speaker
institutions need to understand him. What does their new size and shape look like? Because we you're right, I think we have a duty of care to to make sure that the students that are coming in to learn with us, ah institutions, that they they need to feel um that we have, can I say, got their back, but you know we're we're there to to obviously, to to prefer to support them.
00:44:33
Speaker
um both pastorally and and in terms of in their academic development and and knowledge acquisition as well but again in in their self-confidence and in you know in everything that you've said um so I think it's and that's why it is such a It's a big ask. I think, you know, it's not an easy thing to get right. And I don't know if any of us ah have got it right, because it is so, so different at different institutions. But I think it's about knowing your cohorts and knowing what they need. And they sort of be different from Lincoln to what Lynette might be looking at at at Nottingham and, you know, for a number of reasons and and the same with lots of other institutions. So it is and it's about having that
00:45:17
Speaker
that understanding and that grasp. So knowing knowing your learners and and knowing also your staff as well. I mean, what what staff are needing, so I think we've talked a lot about students, but you know what what staff are needing in terms of their wellbeing and their feeling like they belong as well. I also think it's very important on the back of that to think about the needs of different student types.
00:45:42
Speaker
So we there is always a bit of a focus, whether it's intentional or not, on our undergraduate cohorts. And then we forget almost about the PGTs in particular. um A lot of the time, or at least at our institution, there's a heavy overlap between postgraduate taught learners and international students who, again,
00:46:06
Speaker
and and and the needs of international students I think also particularly when we look at hardship and things like that they can sometimes be overlooked. Our hardship work illuminated the financial challenges international students are massively facing and then they will often be restricted from things like hardship funds or internal and support mechanisms and external support mechanisms. um So I think that intersectionality and again that the the uh how the one size fits all approach isn't necessarily effective um is is yes is important here it's the it's the different needs of different cohorts that i think particularly when you're looking at larger institutions with larger numbers of students is often difficult to try and be bespoke for each of them it's clearly a very
00:47:03
Speaker
complex area and the further we get through unpicking it, um it seems that it seems in some ways that that that some of these terms are um um are certainly more nuanced, but they're being used more and more regularly now. um But these challenges have clearly been here for for a while. is it Is it that just as universities, we're we're more astute, we're more willing to listen to different voices, we're more considerate? what what what What is it? that where's Where's all this change coming from? um And in line to that, where where where is it going? what are the What are the future trends around these areas? I don't know who would like to take that one.
00:47:47
Speaker
I don't know where it's coming from, Stuart, sorry for jumping in up across everybody.
Strategic Approaches to Access and Belonging
00:47:51
Speaker
I don't know where it's coming from, but I'm happy with where it's at and where it's going, to be honest with you, as a minority woman, because I think um a colleague of mine was in here earlier, a colleague from my my activism days, another traveler woman, and she was here doing some training with the students earlier. And we were just remarking that 20 years ago, that wouldn't have been possible. These institutions weren't open to us.
00:48:13
Speaker
We didn't have the skill set first for all to posit ourselves in any really meaningful way within these institutions. So we we have a generation of firsts now who can can come along and do that and have the language and the skills needed to make real contributions and to be heard and to demand that we're heard. and But there's huge amount of support there for that there that didn't exist before. you know like There's a huge amount of change, a shift some kind of shift has occurred like in the last number of years and I don't know what we can attribute that to maybe um and I don't know if we conclude this but maybe we could attribute it to the rise of the far right I don't know because that scares us all so much that I think we we feel that God we need to do something about that um so in one way I think they maybe have done people like me a favor because they've given us a floor ah they've they've they've put up put our issues um
00:49:01
Speaker
in a place that they weren't before. you know People are are are fearful of that and so they're more open to hearing things in a way that they weren't before. In terms of travellers in particular, um just being recognised as an ethnic group was really important in 2017, having that recognition and a recognition and that our experiences where were experiences of racism and and that I guess um moving away from from the black-white binary, you know, seeing racism beyond that black-white binary critical race theory being applied in a more liberal way and moving from that the US into the UK and over here finally to the Irish context in more recent years. So I i think there's yeah a lot of things have have been happening um but I'm really happy with where things are actually to be honest and where things are are moving because I think if if
00:49:50
Speaker
at where we're at is anything to go by. I think that the future looks a lot brighter than and the past did for sure, you know. Yeah. Thank you, Hannah. Can can I ask, do you have, we refer to colloquially as APP's access and participation plans?
00:50:07
Speaker
what I don't know if they'd be called APPs but we certainly have access programs which would be similar um and they they would be relatively new. I was one of the first the first access students actually in 1998 that am there was a pilot program ran in University of Galway which is now called the University of Galway, formerly called National University of Ireland Galway.
00:50:28
Speaker
um And that was the first pilot program that they did there for access for early school leavers. And now that program has been expanded and extended throughout the country ah for early school leavers and mature students. And I think, yeah, that course has increased access and participation for groups that would formally not have had opportunities for access and participate in higher level institutions. So, yeah, those programs have been were the weight and goals, I guess, for from my perspective from from the perspective of people like me. And using that programme as an example, Hannah, do you think um in in the Irish context that that has enabled institutions to have to sit up and prioritise issues around access and retention?
00:51:17
Speaker
in a way that's more strategic for an institution than ever it was before? Or do you think that there's a natural ebb and flow that's lent itself to having to consider those access and participation constructs because of that program of study? Or is it a bit of both?
00:51:34
Speaker
I'd say it's a bit of both, to be honest with you. Yeah. i And because the research, I don't know what what it's like in the UK, but the researcher in the Irish context, no one they looked at, they did a longitudinal study looking at traditional entry students and students who had entered university through the access route. and And the study showed that at the end of the day, the qualifications or the levels of degree acquired, there was very little difference regardless of whether you're a traditional and entry student or an access student. so I think all of those things and the the findings from research like that havam have led to ah universities taking a more proactive and more concentrated a approach around work like this because they work. you know We see that they work and we see how well students do. It's not throwing money yeah at something that doesn't work. Lots of times we do do that and we don't see the results and the outcomes, but you can really see the outcomes and the results.
00:52:22
Speaker
And it's life-changing for people. like Education is life-changing. and and And then the knock-on effect of that. you know when you change When you educate one person, you educate a family. When you educate a woman, you educate a family anyway. um So when you you know when you invest in one person, and the knock-on effect is huge. So I think we can see the benefits. We wouldn't be investing in it in the way that we are um if there wasn't any any benefit.
00:52:46
Speaker
I think there's something so hugely powerful about what you've just said around investment. Investing in one is to invest in, in you know, a small populace of of subsequent people that sit alongside that one person, whoever that person may well be. um I think there's something immensely powerful about that as a sort of place to ah just pause and reflect on, certainly for me. um ah around ah me You know?
00:53:14
Speaker
It reminds me, if you know where there's a child, when you say, like, you go first, you know, it's like, when you want to, you go first, and if that person doesn't fall and break their neck, then, so get their public so it's a little bit like that, you know, you go first, and if you're okay, then, and it's amazing the impact of role models, like I'm, you know, what somebody from a community can do.
00:53:34
Speaker
for a community is it's a measurable in comparison to if I remember when I did my interview for my master's in community development they asked me like why would you be a good community development worker and I said because you'll always only be a suit to somebody like us you know you'll just be somebody in a suit talking and and whereas when it comes from the community it's very very different it has a much much deeper impact on a community than it does from somebody from outside the community you know so so I don't know it's fine I think that bit and well all of it is is really powerful but just that end bit is perhaps a ah nice route into thinking about a Stewart reference to what next in terms of the future so that investment in in community groups in people that are representative of their community groups whatever those groups may well be um
00:54:25
Speaker
might well be you know the route for education or or the route to where education needs to continue to go um and is ah and perhaps some of this conversation illuminates the need to go there. but What does everybody else think in terms of thinking about that more futuristic piece of where we are now versus where we are headed, um certainly from an access belonging and mattering perspective?
00:54:51
Speaker
I mean, i've i've but yeah, that's really interesting. And I think it it relates to something that I've been talking a lot about at Lincoln um and linking it back to access and participation actually. And and the integral place that APP has has in in terms of not just, and again, going back to our commitment and and our duty of of what we're providing, um to to our to our learners. and one ah you know My kind of thoughts on this are APP is everyone's responsibility. So I don't know you know how other are institutions um resource APP in terms of you know evaluating it and and making sure that um it's it's we've we've got a very clear understanding of where and how it's provided a quality institution of this.
00:55:42
Speaker
and and just what we do at Lincoln. But we would we're definitely moving forward and and trying to progress the future for APP to have the have that understanding. Again, it's a cultural mindset, isn't it? That APP is everyone's responsibility. It isn't just a school role. It isn't just someone who is a champion.
00:56:01
Speaker
in in their in their college or in their their faculty, everyone has a role to play with ensuring whether that's access, participation, whether it's authentic, whether it's inclusive, whether it enhances specific areas of excellence, whether it's about showcasing best practice and kind of and making sure that that is continued across all all levels. But it's everyone's responsibility, just as it's everyone's responsibility to support, I would say, kind of mental health, which I'm from Mental Health Charter. And I think and that kind of brings me back to how we're responding to future forecasting, I suppose, of
00:56:41
Speaker
in terms of um everything we're talking about here today, whether it's um transition or retention or or belonging and the need to work as a collegiate institution and so and and as we've we've already alluded to it it's it's going to be hard it's going to be challenging and you know it's it's going to be quite difficult to to make sure that we are providing that to everybody but i think it's not just necessary but it's needed you know and and we've spoken about some of the challenges that everyone is facing already but i think it's it's especially needed as we're trying to empower students
00:57:21
Speaker
in a really difficult time um in their life to be to be studying and to and to but to be part of um part um their their journey with furthering their education. i think it's um And to do that, it takes everything that we've already spoken about. But one of the main things is that strategic buy-in. And if you've got that,
00:57:47
Speaker
then obviously with that comes hopefully resources and then with the resources comes the support. And then, and as I said, then it's that acknowledgement that it's everyone's business because it has that, that kind of um ripple effect that it goes across all all departments and that would include professional services as well as academic schools. And I think maybe that's a key message that we're just, from my perspective, we're trying to get across to our community at Lincoln is something like APP, something like building a sense of belonging um is everyone's responsibility.
00:58:21
Speaker
including the students themselves, I have to say, as a real collaborative endeavor. We need their voices, they need to be part of the sign of it with us.
Enhancing Engagement and Inclusion
00:58:34
Speaker
I'm going to come to each of you and ask for your top tip, but just following on from that, Kate, I mean, that's brilliant, but if, say, I'm a listener and I'm sitting here, I'm listening to this podcast and I'm intrigued, I want to know more, I want to do more, I want to be more engaged with my university,
00:58:52
Speaker
where Where do I go? Because, yes, absolutely fabulous, everyone's responsibility, strategic approach, but everyone's going to be at different stages in that journey. um Other listeners may may, you know, some of these terms may well be new and and it may not necessarily be um as further down the line. so So what is that top tip, that one tangible takeaway you would like our listeners to think about? What is it they could take forward? It may be as simple as as reading an article, it may be, um it may be even simpler and just talking to to to colleagues, you know, you're you're absolutely, absolutely 100% correct. It's students, professional service staff, academics, it's everyone. So it could just be bridging some of those divides. But um yeah, but what what would that one top tip be? I would say very simply going out and and talking and listening and hearing everyone's voice. You know, ah we've we've already said there's no one size fits all.
00:59:49
Speaker
we already have come to the conclusion that we know it's it's ah it needs to be a collective effort. um But I would say that there's there's nothing, you know no you're not going to not find out um the the answers necessarily until you start to go out to whether it's um from a student's point of view, talking to your personal tutor, tutor talking to peers, talking to um your programme leader, talking to student support, talking to those um student ambassadors that that, you know, maybe have some roles, as well as from from staff talking to the director of teaching learning or, ah you know, they'll obviously have different um different ah kind of ah titles in in different institutions. But, you know, those those individuals that are the ones that are passionate about leading teaching, learning and enhancing student experience, every institution will have
01:00:46
Speaker
be called different names but I think that's that's but equally all the voices have got some value and should be acknowledged and that is all of the students that and so it's probably going out and talking to the Students Union um but also just understanding what what What is it? What is the offer that you are providing to a prospective student? It's quite good to look from someone's, you know, fresh eyes, I suppose, from from those those um perhaps new entrants. And that's what we're doing at Lincoln. we We've got a new entrance survey we've just put out. So we're trying to gather this and it's
01:01:24
Speaker
understanding from the data you're collecting and and planning from that really. um So for me, it's just hearing the voices and going out and networking and not being afraid to ask questions. I like that. Not being afraid to ask questions. I think it's certainly something which we can encourage our our listeners to to do more of. who who who would like to Who would like to go next? What's your top tip for our listeners? I'm going to jump in.
01:01:53
Speaker
inspired by Kate's mention of a survey, um my top tip is data, data, data, data, which sounds really boring actually now that I've said it out loud, um but there are so many stories and areas in the data that you may not have identified were an issue. um Equally,
01:02:16
Speaker
You might hear anecdotally that there's an issue somewhere and you look at the data and it says, no, actually that area is performing perfectly. youre Your intake of WP students, for example, is absolutely fine. This is where your focus area should be instead, for example. We've switched some of our work from access work for WP students into the the sort of attainment and success because that's where we identified in the data that the that the need was. and So mine would be get comfortable navigating a data set.
01:02:46
Speaker
or find someone who is at my institution, or at least in my team, that has turned out to be me, which most of the time, absolutely fine with. But finding your way or getting some information from the data is going to illuminate pathways that you never knew you had to explore. Yeah, thank you, Alex. i'm A man after my own heart in terms of data, I'm um'm certainly Certainly aligned with that. And i'm just going I'm just going to add to it, I can be cheeky and say time you data um because you need to have it and you need to have it accessible and make sure that we're using it at the right time. It's sadly sometimes too late when people are looking at the data and it it needs to be much more readily available to colleagues as well. Lynette, can I come to you next? I was going to say, I've completely found my data person. So I'm involved.
01:03:42
Speaker
and We also do share a lot of spreadsheets, but Alex is 100% the data person. So yeah, I do completely agree with that. um I really agree with everything Kate, you said as well. um I think it's really important to talk to people, to talk to like-minded people, but I think my top tip would just be to involve students in absolutely everything that you can. and I think when we were talking earlier about what has changed over the last few years, et cetera,
01:04:09
Speaker
I think it's driven by students. They're they're rightly demanding more and more. um And I think we need to respond to that. And um obviously, you know institution higher education institutions are big beasts. We take a long time to change anything. so But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. So my my um My top tip would be to involve students at every single point and and to truly partner with them as well, which I think is something that we've been getting better and better at, um certainly in our institution. and It's not just a kind of symbolic touch point, it's treating them as a partner. I guess getting involved in that data set. Perfect, thank you Lynette. And Hannah, a top tip for our listeners to consider.
01:04:56
Speaker
I course is incredibly important and I'm particularly interested in research that employs a pretty participatory approach to to ah methodology sorry a PAR approach. I can't speak this time with anything more than three syllables I'm struggling with. But so but any any research that includes
01:05:28
Speaker
people that have been oppressed or experienced oppression. We know from from research that that those who are are affected by an issue are often the best people to to ask and what the solution is to that particular issue. So I think it's really important to engage with the people that are affected like Kate and Lynette and Alex already said.
01:05:46
Speaker
and And, you know, to just go out to community groups and che and to really listen to what's happening on the ground from from the groups that exist out there already. And just, you know, I know here within the Irish context, in particular and in particular, in relation to, or specifically relation to travellers, that there's lots of traveller groups locally and nationally, and people will be coming up with the same issues all of the time. So it's really important to link in with those groups um and to be guided by the stuff that they say and inform.
01:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Hannah. And i think it's it's been touched upon specifically by yourself there. Lynette, you're talking about collaboration with students, that partnership approaches. In terms of collaboration, for a last talking point, what areas should HE providers be looking at to work on together? I accept that it's contextualized absolutely, and we need to have that specific focus. And and that context is going to be different geographically,
01:06:43
Speaker
There's types of students we have, et cetera, and so on. um But there is also power in in providers coming together, crossing those divides geographically, um politically, et cetera. What is it that that we we we we should be doing? How does the top topography need to change? um what what is that is there Is there a call to action we should be putting out there for for colleagues to be considering?
01:07:12
Speaker
I would really advocate for um collaboration, which is which is happening already, Stuart, across the sector. But um for me, I think it's around, you know I'm going to say this, mental health and wellbeing initiatives. I think they are fun of fundamental importance in terms of um learning from the narrated stories. um And what's really crucial in this space, which is which is which is tricky, it's difficult, is all of the things that perhaps haven't worked as we wanted them to, making their space safe to suggest that actually it hasn't worked and therefore we need to change direction or perhaps think about it from a different lens or perhaps
01:07:58
Speaker
continue to think about it from this lens with a nuance to to ah ah another lens too. So for me thinking about mental health and wellbeing initiatives and collaborating ah with HE Provision is is crucial and that also comes to thinking about how we can truly make curriculum development um and sharing of our resources inclusive and I think there's a real need for us to think about um how we collaborate better um in regards inclusive curriculum designed to promote safety that that notion of kind of a culture of safety and trust
01:08:35
Speaker
um and a culture of of empowering students to access what's on offer. And that might may mean doing things really differently and learning from others, and it might mean staying the same and enabling others to learn from a specific place or place. But I think there's a real sense of needing to throw open the doors and and encourage ah that dialogue and that co-creation and that collaboration in those two specific areas just to to kind of kick us off.
01:09:06
Speaker
I mean, I would also say that um there is a call to action. I absolutely agree that it's about mental health, but i ah just to look differently, I think there's a call to action for building not just a sense of belonging, but also a commitment to to listening to students and enhancing their student experiences holistically. So for us, we're doing that.
01:09:34
Speaker
through student as producer and and and that that's just one model that has got a legacy at Lincoln but there's an opportunity there and George you kind of um identified with it and you know of sharing that practice and that to be a bit more consistent to see one model at one institution whether it is at Nottingham and it is student as partners but you know just and and identifying where where models, frameworks, approaches um work ah and gathering prints principles or elements of of those or core values. It doesn't need to be a replica of, of you know, for for Lincoln to to think about taking on a student as partners, but definitely in the in the creation of students producer,
01:10:20
Speaker
2.0 so to kind of put it more fit for purpose for for moving forward, we've looked at elements of students as partners and students as co-creators in order to see what works for us at Lincoln and this is what I think is is there's a call for action for all of us to to look perhaps outside of the model that we have already set up a for um for our teaching and learning and our kind of student engagement opportunities we may offer.
01:10:51
Speaker
through various channels and to to look outward and see if there's other elements that we can start to collaborate across institutions as well. Because there's so much good practice going on. And for example, like Advanced HE, a really good kind of mechanism to share that. And I think you do that really well in terms of your you know your webinars and and your symposiums and and you know and obviously your website and all of the opportunities you have for us to share practice, but I think we just need to continue with us and that when we need to really, really think about not being so, this is this is this is our model and you know no one else, because actually, you know that we all want the same thing. So you know I just think we can learn a lot from from others and and ah and yeah share that great practice which comes in pockets across various institutions.
01:11:43
Speaker
I think some of the issues we have, and I'm not necessarily talking, not even specifically, I'm thinking sex-wide, is the internal communication within your own organisation. I think particularly the larger and more disparate they get, the harder it is to keep up with what's going on elsewhere. I think some of the richest work we've got going on at the moment is definitely that collaborative work between whether you sit at a faculty level and whether it's with specific teams, whether it's with central widening participation and outreach teams, whether it's with student campus life teams, I think it's that bridge between particularly the academic schools and the centralized services that aren't necessarily as involved in the day-to-day teaching. I think for me, that's some of the richest work that we've got going on.
01:12:33
Speaker
and it's Again, um this now I am talking maybe more on Nottingham's level, I think there can sometimes be a disconnect between those centralised teams and the schools the faculties. So I think trying to break those down, if that if they're in your institution, break them down. If they're not, tell us how and we will break them down and learn from your best practice. But I do think making those internal conversations happen is really, really fruitful and I don't think it's something that that happens often enough.
01:13:11
Speaker
it's to I would agree of course with what Kate and Juliet and and Alex have just said. I think here that it's one of my great frustrations that we don't collaborate better and I really again admire the work of Advanced HE. I think the webinars have been super for people coming together to share practice and what's going on in different spaces and I think more more that needs to be greater, more opportunities like that need to be created because it's not that people want to work in silos, but that it's oftentimes that they don't the opportunities haven't been created for them. So I think there needs to be ah someone there so some national coordination around creating opportunities for um access programs and people working
01:13:50
Speaker
on on areas of access and participation to come together and share best practice and to talk about what's working and what's not working and to support each other because ah rather than you know people are doing things that have been tried and tested somewhere else and and that that other organization knows it doesn't work and and yeah but there's no sharing of of the they ah yeah those kind of that kind work and in that respect it's not good value for money in my opinion I'm all all about value for money so like I think it would would benefit us all um to create opportunities for better collaboration.
01:14:22
Speaker
Thank you. And we talked at the top of the call, didn't we, Hannah? I think around, um ironically, opportunities for students ah around sort of what does it mean to belong? What does it mean to matter? um And some of that, much of that um being being encased in opportunity, ironically. um And I just I feel it's really pertinent. Also, I know we've referenced it in our our conversation this afternoon, but also to think about therefore opportunity for staff.
01:14:53
Speaker
um and to actually think about how ah we are enabling staff to feel that they belong and that they matter and how we're enabling staff to have opportunity to perhaps be more involved in um belonging and mattering to a space and place within the institution that they're they're in or with a student group that they may well be alongside and or responsible for. um And for staff to be enabled you know to to work in that ah shared collaborative way um more consistently I think would be the the best description there.
Closing Remarks and Next Episode Preview
01:15:32
Speaker
Just picking up on something you said there as well Hannah, that organisation that knew it doesn't work. I mean sharing what doesn't work is just as important as sharing in what works um and I think that is something that wherever possible, we we we should all try and share what doesn't work. And i I know that can be painful as well, but I think that's really, really important. I'm really pleased to see that Advanced HE has acted as a conduit. and And thank you for saying so. Your checks are in the post. To say that ah all of our ah guests' details are in our podcast um script, and you can find their information. And i'm I'm sure, please do reach out and get in contact. They're delighted to to hear from you
01:16:14
Speaker
and to create some of those those collaborative links. It leaves me really to thank our guests for our inaugural podcast, Lynette, Alex, Hannah, Kate for joining us today. To Juliet, my co-host on this episode, um all of your insights have been invaluable and thank you so much. Before we go, um I just wanted to remind to all of our listeners that that um Everyone deserves to matter. And we we spoke about Wobble Week and how Wobbles can hit any of us at any point. um you know If you're a student, if you're a staff member, if this has resonated, perhaps you're yourere you're having some of those challenges that have been picked up today, please do reach out to your university's um support services or your local health service, as you see appropriate. And us, for ourselves, we will be back next time with a podcast on education for sustainable development.
01:17:09
Speaker
with what promises to be an equally exciting episode. Until then, I'll ask our listeners to stay curious and get in touch to access a variety of resources we have in these areas to support the sector and to enable students to move one step closer to success. Thank you.