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Episode 2: Education for Sustainable Development
126 Plays1 month ago
In Episode 2, Stuart is joined by Advance HE's Lead Consultant, Education Kay Hack, masters student and climate campaigner Josh Tregale, Anil Khamis from Aga Khan University and Daniella Tilbury from St Catherine's College Cambridge to discuss Education for Sustainable Development (ESD) in the context of student success.
They touch on the meaning of ESD, the ever growing adoption of the UN Sustainable Development Goals, skills that students will require in the employment market now and into the future and give us their one top tip for embedding ESD into teaching practice and wider university strategies.
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Transcript
00:00:14
Speaker
Hello and welcome to our podcast, Student Success Pod. I'm your host, Stuart Norton, and here we we discuss core thematic areas of student success. Please do remember to follow the series to make sure you stay up to date with new episodes and activity related to student success. I am again joined by a colleague and co-host, Kay Hack. Hello Kay. Good morning. Today we're talking about education for sustainable development.
00:00:38
Speaker
We have three fabulous guests from across the sector talking to education for sustainable development from their own perspective and sharing insights with you, our listeners. Firstly, I'd like to introduce Josh Trigell from Imperial College London. Hello, Josh. Good morning, Stuart. Hi, Josh. I hope you are well. Whereabouts are you at the moment and can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
00:01:04
Speaker
I'm in London at the moment studying mechanical engineering at Imperial College London and I've been involved with climate education campaign work for the last three to four years. Fantastic. Thank you so much for giving up your time to join us. ah Secondly, I'd like to introduce Anil Kamis from Aga Khan University and also University College London.
00:01:25
Speaker
Good morning, Anil. Well, good afternoon, really, Stuart. I'm in Nairobi, which is ah two hours ahead of London. So we've just gone past lunchtime now. But good afternoon from the city in the sun, Nairobi, Kenya.
00:01:44
Speaker
Fantastic. Thank you, Anil. I've been very fortunate enough to both work and also visit on holidays to Kenya at separate times in my life, and it holds a very special place in my heart, so exceedingly jealous, um especially of the weather right now, as as I look out across a stormy sea in the southeast of Kent. ah Last and but by no means least, and delighted to introduce Daniella Tilbury, honorary fellow at St. Catherine College, at Cambridge. Hello, Daniella.
00:02:12
Speaker
Good morning. It's great to be here with you. I'm really looking forward to that chat. Thank you, colleagues. As ever, the first thing we do is to ease our way into the series is to start with something a little bit more lighthearted. For colleagues who have listened to our first episode, you'll be familiar with the concept of edgy biscuit. Listeners, new to the series, you're in for a treat as our guests divulge if they are a dunker and provide their favourite biscuit for doing so.
00:02:39
Speaker
we will run a very non-academic chart to accompany the series, but this is actually a very serious matter. And to accompany my further research from episode one, my fact this week is that dunked biscuits do actually taste better. and Dr. Ian Fisk from Nottingham University with his special MS nose mass but spectrometer has proven in a laboratory that dunked biscuits released more favour. So without further ado,
00:03:07
Speaker
What are our favourite biscuits and are you a dunker? Daniella, if I could come to you in the first instance. Well, I'm not a biscuit person, but, but you know, if I'm given a Lotus Biscoff with my tea, and then I will indeed have it. Or otherwise, you know, because I spent so much so many years in Australia, a Tim Tam is also quite scrumptious, you know, those chocolate covered biscuits, and they can leave quite a lasting impression on our taste buds. so But I'm not a dunker.
00:03:36
Speaker
no why and and and I felt almost felt rude asking you, Daniela, but so really really interesting that you mentioned Tim Tams. Last week we had Hannah McGinley from Mary Immaculate College, or last month I should say, we had Hannah McGinley from Mary Immaculate College, and she also gave the Tim Tam as her top biscuit. um I myself had never heard of a Tim Tam before. I'm still waiting for our listeners in Australia to send me across a packet.
00:04:03
Speaker
um But it's great to it's great to see that that's coming up, and it's going to be straight at the top of our charts, at least currently. Anil? I'm not sure this is strictly a biscuit, but you find them all over the world. It's a nan katai, originally from the Indian subcontinent, nan katai. And you might describe it in England as possibly a very crispy shortbread.
00:04:29
Speaker
And I am certainly a dunker and I completely agree with Fisk that there is no doubt that they taste scrumptious and wonderful. Might have to convert Daniela to to being a biscuit person. And Anil, if I can just ask you for the name of the biscuit one more time because there was some background noise there I just struck into here. Nan khatai.
00:04:51
Speaker
None could tie. Well, listeners, once again, for the for those that know me, I'm definitely a biscuit eater. And please do feel free to to send these biscuits in. Kara Stewart Norton at Advance HE. Josh, if I could come to you, are you a dunker, Josh?
00:05:10
Speaker
Unfortunately, I'm not. um I think Daniela and I might have skewed this one this morning. i I don't really like dunking biscuits. I prefer them to be nice and crunchy. and I don't really drink hot drinks, so it would feel a bit so feel a bit damp to just put them in a glass of orange squash. Well, what's your favourite biscuit then, Josh? there There must be a top one there.
00:05:32
Speaker
I tend to rotate through the, you know, the really large like triple chocolate cookies, um although at the moment in a slightly festive mood, I've gone with gingerbread Belgium white chocolate cookies. um But I like one that feels like I feel full when I've eaten the whole biscuit. Wow, that that's certainly an exceptional biscuit there. And you're you're not you're actually in the in the majority. um we we We discovered and on our last episode that apparently only 30% of people dunk biscuits.
00:06:01
Speaker
in a recent survey, although I personally think that's only 30% of people admit to Dunkin Biscuits, but we shall see as we go through the series and how many of our guests Dunk or not. ah Kay, I don't feel I can leave you out of this. so i'm I'm intrigued. Are you a Dunker, Kay? I don't think I'm a great sample for this either. Number one, I don't really eat biscuits very often. um you know A fig bowl would probably be about my limit.
00:06:24
Speaker
And also I kind of feel like tea is sacrosanct. It's such a perfect beverage. I don't want to kind of taint it with a biscuit. So, you know, I'm okay. One of these ah disrupting your survey there. No, no, no. I like that. A fig roll. Do you know, I haven't had a fig roll for years. that That reminds me of my nan. I'm going to, I'm going to have to go down to the local supermarkets and purchase some fig rolls. They are certainly good. And I don't think a fig roll necessarily needs to, needs to be dunked either.
00:06:52
Speaker
Well, colleagues, there you have it. We we we have some Nunkers and some not. We have an international Biscuit as well. I'm sure Edgy Biscuit will survive for another month and hopefully we go from there. um But I think without further ado, let's talk about student success. So today we are talking about educational for education sustainable development. And first things first, what do these terms mean in your context?
00:07:20
Speaker
So I'm going to come to Kay to ask the guests in term, what does ESD mean to them? But from a slightly different perspective, and I think it's really important as we talk about and think about the language, what it is we're meaning and what it is we're discussing. Kay. Thanks, Stuart. OK, I don't know who wants to kick off on this. um Obviously, sustainable sustainability and sustainable development.
00:07:43
Speaker
ah Words that have been used in the higher education sector for probably over a decade at least now but but they still kind of have quite different meanings for different people and people have got a sort of a different um sort of maturity in terms of how they're approaching those. So I think it'd be really really useful maybe starting with yourself Josh to think about you what what have you seen it first of all from a student perspective and then from I guess your kind of wider campaigning work.
00:08:11
Speaker
I think i I'd start by saying that there's some really interesting research that SOSUK have completed every year um and their 2023 research found that 81% of students wanted to see sustainable development incorporated actively across all of the subjects that they learn at school and through all courses um at university.
00:08:32
Speaker
um And that 65% wanted to have learned more about it by the time they graduated university. So I think from a student point of view, there's high demand for incorporating yeah ESG more into the curriculum and embedding it throughout courses.
00:08:46
Speaker
um I've been lucky that last year we had modules about the ethics and responsibilities around engineering. It's quite a public facing job and quite a public facing sector. So there's lots of considerations to make about the decisions and I was really happy to see that there was a large emphasis on the sustainability impact of decisions made in engineering. it's It's one of those sectors that can either be a real driver for good or it can have a really negative impact when it comes to climate change. um So I think i think it would be really nice to see it embedded more across subjects so it doesn't feel like it's a bolt on in this sort of ethics category that people don't want to concentrate in.
00:09:29
Speaker
um using up-to-date examples and case studies, there's always fascinating work happening around the area of sustainability across all disciplines. And I think embedding that into different modules based on current examples of best case practice could be a really interesting way to bring ah that that level of of current up-to-date research into education to really cement the role that sustainability has within every sector.
00:09:57
Speaker
that That's great. Thanks, Josh. And um we're going to explore more about um ah sort pedagogics, teaching approaches later on. So that that's great to get us started. Anil, what does it mean you know from from your perspective of obviously having that sort of dual institution role? I think you've got a real breadth of breadth of knowledge here that you can that you can bring to the discussion.
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, I think in a nutshell, we've got to sort of distinguish between what we mean by education and sustainable development and education for sustainable development. So I think ah that's obviously where the pedagogical and and implications come through. I think the second aspect I would i would consider is ESD really needs to be both imminent and future oriented. You know, we we understand from the education sector that some of the outcomes and privileges that we have in the education system may not materialize for numbers of years. um So the future oriented approach is critical.
00:11:07
Speaker
um And I would certainly say that from a political economy, a social development perspective, education for sustainable development needs to consider how we possibly distinguish education from schooling or the education system in and of itself. So really to call for a bridge.
00:11:29
Speaker
between whatever it is, centre-based learning, school-based learning, university-based education, and what is really happening in the community in real time. So those would be some parameters I would consider as education for and sustainable development. Yeah, thanks. i think And I think that's that's really important. You know, it can't just stay within the confines of the institution. We've we've got to find projects and I think Josh touched on that as well, those sort of real authentic case studies to kind of bring it to life and connect and connect up communities. um ah Daniela, moving on to yourself then. Yeah, well, given that the theme of the podcast is student success, I think I'd like to define it within that context. I mean, what do we mean by student success and sustainability? And again, I'd like to refer to what was said in the last podcast. One of the guests talked about student success being a slippery notion.
00:12:25
Speaker
Well, when it comes to sustainability, I think student success could be defined more in a sliding scale. You know, at the lower level or the lower end, it could be equated with students knowing and understanding sustainability concepts. And these are mainly quite thematic, you know, climate change, biodiversity, natural systems. And these seems to be quite a key goal at the moment.
00:12:49
Speaker
We see many institutions that confine themselves to auditing where these themes appear in in their programs. And yet at the other end of the scale, which for me is a more elevated in terms of what's more sophisticated in terms of its practice,
00:13:04
Speaker
is associating success with student engagement, student participation, student experience in real sustainability issues. And this could happen in the campus. you know We've heard of the living lab in the campus and you know being involved in changing their own university or college. Or it could happen in their professional bodies and the professional pathways that they're choosing or the communities that they're rooted in. so You know, to me, when we talk about student success in this agenda, we're talking about building capability, building experience, having a real people, real tension, real context to all of this. So that yeah ESD is not just about what a student knows. It's about what a student is able to do with that knowledge.
00:13:58
Speaker
I really like that, said Daniela, that concept of being able to to do with what you know rather than just what you know. I think that that speaks volumes around a range of thematic areas and in terms of enhancing student success. there was There was one thing which you mentioned there, which I'd like you to expand upon a little bit more and colleagues as well. Please do come in. It was the Living Lab. I'm just conscious that not all of our listeners may be familiar with that as a concept, but it sounds exceptionally exciting and intriguing. so Do you mind if I ask you to expand a little bit more on a living map? Yes, and this is where the universities themselves become beacons of of sustainability, where you know the the infrastructure, the student experience, the way the universities are run model what we want to see in the future. So this is about involving staff and students in transforming the institution and looking at ways in which it can improve its sustainability
00:14:56
Speaker
um ah practice but also its aspirations so it can be anything from changing the strategic plan of the university to to changing the work placements arrangements that students go to or the way that the accommodation you know the residential areas are run in an institution it's about changing in practice in a university and students becoming involved in that.
00:15:19
Speaker
that That's really, really helpful, Daniela. and And just to kind of add to colleagues, um on ah on the ESD pages, on the Advance HE website, there's a few examples and guides to how people can get started in that kind of living lab approach. And that there's a few things there to help you really unpick that and think about what you could do in your own context.
00:15:41
Speaker
Yeah, we've seen a real rise around the sustainable development goals across the sector. um It's also being included most recently. I can't remember what year it was now, Kay, in the Times Higher Impact rankings, is that? Have they been going six years? and Yeah, I can't remember. Six years, time time flies when youre time flies when you're having fun. It felt was so much more recent. um but But colleagues, um you know, we It appears that we're highlighting a real breadth of issues that are encompassed in sustainability. What what trends or themes are you seeing? Neil, I'm going to come to you because you've got that regional perspective as well there. just you know what What are the current trends and themes in sustainable development that we're seeing? Well, speaking from the global south, if you like,
00:16:30
Speaker
um There are a number of very important and emergent requirements, if you like. So for example, if you look at ah recent events,
00:16:45
Speaker
both in Eastern Africa, the Horn of Africa, as well as South Asia, we have seen significant drought, flooding, glacial melt, ah intensity of cyclones, etc. So one of the questions is, for example, Pakistan is the fifth most vulnerable country in the world to climate change.
00:17:06
Speaker
and of course emits less than 1% of greenhouse gases. So the question of equity, the questions that came up in COP28 and again COP29 in ah transitioning away from fossil fuels, <unk> etc., is very, very critical. But I think ah You know, regardless of where we are in that trajectory to move away, ah away from, if you like, a fossil fuel economy, the question of innovation is very critical. So we have something called the Earth's Shot Prize.
00:17:40
Speaker
which is fronted by Prince William, but also ah has the involvement of ah the Aga Khan, who is the Chancellor and the founder of the Aga Khan University. And I think innovation is very, very critical. But the innovation necessarily needs to be both culturally sensitive as well as ensuring that it meets the livelihood needs of the people that are most affected. So again, the questions of rights, questions of equity, questions of the state and the citizen, and then importantly, ah the role and position of universities. So it might almost be argued
00:18:24
Speaker
that universities are behind the knowledge curve of where knowledge is required to address some of the existential concerns that we have. So just to pick up a little bit on Daniela's point, ah in Arusha, Tanzania, the Aga Khan University has a 4,000 acre living laboratory for the Arusha Climate and Environmental Research Center.
00:18:49
Speaker
which studies everything from pollination, ah insect ecologies, ah human animal migration, land rehabilitation in the shadow of Mount Meru, which is the second highest peak in Tanzania. But what we are now doing actually is building on indigenous knowledge of the Maasai.
00:19:12
Speaker
for whom migration is very, very critical. So where does indigenous knowledge fit into the global narrative and the discourses around sustainability? That's a big question for us. And the other then is really around multi-sectorality.
00:19:30
Speaker
We really appreciate exactly what Josh was saying, that engineering an outward-facing public domain, if you like. What are the ethical aspects? We know, for example, cement ah is a huge contributor to climate change. So alternatives ah which build on multi-sectoral approaches, bringing in the voices of the most vulnerable. I would say those are some of the very major themes for us in our part of the world.
00:20:01
Speaker
i think I think that's fascinating and and I think that the the sort twin concept is that yes, we need innovation, and we need creativity but I know when I was very privileged to have the opportunity to visit your campus, I was really struck. you know There's there's no plastic no plastic bags, no plastic water bottles, not just on the university campus but any sort of government tourist sites or the rest of it. So it's being reinforced, that message is being reinforced in a very practical way and absolutely everything everything that that that that you're doing as well as that that need for that that huge innovation as well. um so And I think yeah to have to have innovation we need to be developing out our students, our young people with with those kind of um creative thinking skills as well as that kind of ah ah some of the kind of wider knowledge, the systems thinking and all the rest of it that that they really need to be able to make a difference.
00:20:53
Speaker
um And of course, if we want ah those type of thinkers, we need to have more innovative pedagogies and new ways of thinking. So, um i'm i'm yes, I think josh Josh wants to come in on this one. So, Josh, over to you. Maybe before Josh comes in, just on that point, Kay, we have something, a film series called Giving Nature a Voice.
00:21:17
Speaker
And ah the point that you made on plastics is particularly critical. It was one of our students actually who created a documentary which then was entered in the Zanzibar Film Festival.
00:21:31
Speaker
and it won the prize. And it's been credited by actually pushing the gen Kenyan government towards removing single-use plastics. So this goes back to what Daniela was saying in terms of the student's ladder of participation from basic information to actually taking ownership. And this requires innovative pedagogy, completely agreed with you. Thank you. So Josh, you went to the comment. in I was just wanting to add that when it comes to to making um these decisions and also equipping students will be the next generation of people who design things, who make political decisions, who vote on political decisions when it comes to elections and referendums. And I think it's really important that the entirety of the education system equips people to make well thought through and well measured decisions when it comes to that. There's quite a lot of misunderstanding when it comes to
00:22:29
Speaker
climate change sustainability climate policy that makes it hard for a population to be fully on board with the decisions that are being made and it can sometimes feel like people are having sustainability done to them rather than them being an active part of the process.
00:22:44
Speaker
um I think it's a particularly important aspect when it comes to higher education because typically, at least in the United Kingdom, it's people who have university degrees that end up in positions where they have the most power and the most influence across the economy and in in areas where they make decisions.
00:23:01
Speaker
um And I think it will probably be a while before that changes, um if that does ever change. So I think it's really important that universities particularly equip students to have the tools necessary to understand the problem that is climate change, sustainability, and the very real human impacts and the very real climate justice side of the conversation in order for them to make adequate and good decisions with the information that they require. um It's quite a core part of Action for Climate Empowerment um which covers Article 6 and Article 12 of the Paris Climate Agreement, that the population and education should equip people to understand the problem. um Public understanding is really important when it comes to making big policy decisions. And I think education plays a really powerful role in that and making sure the population are on board and don't feel like things are being done to them, that they're part of the process. I really like that, Josh, being part of the process and not having things done to them. I think at times
00:24:01
Speaker
we We can be guilty of that, can't we, you know and in in terms of how we share information and provide opportunities to involve. Daniella, what would you like to add? Yeah, I'd like to add two separate points if I may. First of all, in response to what Josh has just said, I want to give you a very practical example of something that we've been doing, which is called the Futures Forward Academy. And this is a program where university graduates, the really You know, those university graduates between the age of 21 and 30 were really committed to sustainable development, have come out of great universities, great programs, really committed. And we, they come to our program and we get students who are trained as town planners, doctors, teachers, lawyers, IT, finance professionals, very smart students, very engaged students. But what we find is that when they come to the program and we ask them to implement a change to develop a plan to
00:24:58
Speaker
action a change towards sustainable development. They're stuck. They have little clue of where to begin. and And as I say, these students are very effective students academically have done terrifically well. And I think that's an indicator of how our programs and universities need to change so that, you know, as well as being committed and generating committed students and those who are knowledgeable and passionate about it,
00:25:24
Speaker
that they have some capability or competence to be able to change their professional bodies, their communities, their skill building around how do we bring about change? How do we transition our universities, but also our communities towards sustainability? And I think that's a missing element. And when you asked me to reflect on trends, I think we have a trend where There is a lot of preoccupation with mapping SDG themes and not so much for occupation with working with students in real context to help them drive, map those changes and learn how to influence, learn how to inform um a lot of the sustainability in practice. And in fact, there was a European Commission report that was launched on Thursday, last Thursday,
00:26:17
Speaker
um that surveyed the European member states, including many university students about education for sustainable development. And only 29% of students said that they were able or felt comfortable with linking what they knew, with what they were able to do. And even when they worked on what they were able to do, a lot of them were were actions, which the report describes as low impact actions.
00:26:47
Speaker
such as working on segregating waste, you know, um you know the switching off lights. They were not the type of systemic change that this agenda requires. They were not about how do we transition ourselves, our societies, into a more sustainable future. So I think that's that's a key trend that we need to grapple with, that we need to come to terms with, because It's fantastic that sustainability has become more mainstreamed and more a core agenda of universities, thanks to the rankings, thanks to the guidelines that's coming from Advanced HE and QAA. Thank you for all that. But I think now we need to look a little bit more in the detail and say, how do we support students so that they are successful in this agenda, rather than ticking a box and saying, oh, yes, we cover that theme. Yes, we cover that knowledge base.
00:27:42
Speaker
Yeah, I think i think that that's a great point. and and And in the guidance that you referred to, we we frame the sort of competencies around that kind of you know head, hands, and heart. What do I know? What can I do practically? And then how do I behave? you know What are my values that I'm bringing to things? And you know those those issues are absolutely critical, and we know they are. But they're the hardest things to both sort of develop and measure in an education system.
00:28:10
Speaker
You know so ah ah yeah know, sustainability has evolved, you know, over the years that the Advanced HE and colleagues have been involved in this. And it's clear, you know, it's not just about environmental sustainability. It's about some of the things that and they also touched on that kind of climate justice, that kind of ah social cultural awareness, global citizenship, all of these other things. um And I think, you know, we we know that those are really important, but we also know they're harder to sort of embed in the curriculum.
00:28:39
Speaker
and make meaningful change. um So I don't know if colleagues have got reflections on how we can start to really advance um those other agendas that go into sustainability, that the social sustainability as well as the the the financial sustainability or the economic sustainability, because we know that unless we address all of those, we aren't going to have that kind of systemic impact that that that Daniela referred to, colleagues.
00:29:07
Speaker
What we are doing, at least in our part of the world, one of the gaps we found, Kay, is that sustainability and those with special needs is needs to be bridged. So what we are doing is with our postgraduate students, we are asking them to engage in both experiential learning, but with social action outcomes.
00:29:35
Speaker
So really to create programs and projects, if you like, where they can work with those who are the most vulnerable, the most marginalized, the most in need, both educationally, as well as in this conversation that we're having. And I think there are basically two premises to that. One is students take really ownership of their own learning. So we actually co-create the curriculum. And as Daniela is saying, this is not the theory and the knowledge base, but it's actually bridging that to what can they actually do and what are they actually committed to doing. But then one of the things that ah is very evident in our context
00:30:19
Speaker
is that people with special needs or children with disabilities um are some of the most marginalized. So how can we then support a livelihood outcome using traditional harambeis or bazaars, if you like. Harambei is a Swahili word, meaning bringing people together. It's almost a codependency.
00:30:43
Speaker
So it's building on the values that are already there in society and ensuring that the education system aligns to those values. So sometimes what we find in in the developing world or the global south or the majoritarian world is that inherited educational systems still divorce academic from technical vocational education. And we're trying to really bridge that with that experiential base. So that would be one aspect that you know we could highlight in ESD.
00:31:18
Speaker
But of course, it depends on regulations and university quality assurance mechanisms and the rest of it and ah oversight bodies who who who have to be convinced um that the experiential learning actually meets the outcome. So one of the things the university, the Aga Khan University is moving towards is outcomes-based education.
00:31:41
Speaker
based specifically on identified graduate attributes that we want, in addition to the competencies? and I mean, actually, the the event that that Josh and I first met at was ah ah run by students organizing for sustainability, bringing together higher education providers and the professional bodies. And I think that was a really important step in in in addressing that, Anil, you know,
00:32:08
Speaker
um if it if it's if If these kind of competencies and attributes are embedded in ah professional requirements, that's a huge driver for institutions to get on board. no you know Not that they should need that, but but we need we need that kind of joined up thinking if if we really want to have that goal of of of developing ah developing graduates with these with these skills and attributes. Is there ah is there a question? you we We talk around skills and attributes. you know are Are they sustainable development attributes? Are they employability? Are they enterprise? Is there something which we need to do in terms of simplifying the language? um and i don't know and i And I don't know. Listening to colleagues speak there. um Daniela. And I would like to talk about the key wildcard, which is artificial intelligence.
00:32:59
Speaker
because I think AI and the new technologies will bring that reality much closer to learners, to students. And I can see the exciting opportunity that these new new technologies will bring for these agendas at the one level, because it will confront us with experiencing um things that are currently very distant, which is what Josh is talking about.
00:33:26
Speaker
On the other hand, I also understand how you know AI and the new technology bring new critical concerns to do with data privacy breaches, outsized you know outsourcing human thinking, exasperation of inequalities, you know environmental footprint of the AI infrastructure. We need to find a way of balancing the learning opportunities that come with AI.
00:33:51
Speaker
and you know the the green footprint and and the you know the other aspects of sustainability that ah confront us with these new technologies. But what I really want to say is that I think new technologies can bring a new quality to this agenda. That's my perspective. I think they can drive a completely new perspective, not only bring new stakeholders into the discussion who are more interested in in the future, in the way things are changing in our society, but also in terms of addressing aspects of fake news, addressing aspects of misinformation and disinformation, and how we need to build capability in our students to be able to take the best of these new technologies, but also understand through some critical filter, you know, how they can distort our reality. So I think
00:34:48
Speaker
yeah ESD, Education for Sustainable Development, learning experiences in higher education on this agenda, will be enormously shaped by these new technologies that are slowly making their way into the learning experience of students. Yeah, that's a, sorry Kay, that's just a really, really valid point. And I'm not going to come to UK because I know artificial intelligence and and how that's impacted.
00:35:15
Speaker
the cross educational practices is is something close to your heart. um How is this impact in LearningK and how can this be adopted and harnessed for four four the i guess the the greater good really?
00:35:34
Speaker
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of a lot of issues raised there and and sort of linking actually back to to Josh's first point about how can we make this a little bit more real for students Yes, we can get we can use the technology. It doesn't have to be AI. you know A lot of the technology can facilitate that kind of collaboration, those kind of international connections. And I've seen some fantastic examples of practice where and universities across the globe, a Global North and Global South, if you like, ah coming students are coming together to address real challenges, whether it's around health, whether it's around climate, whether it's around social equity, and actually bringing those students in the same kind of virtual room together to discuss these issues
00:36:13
Speaker
and see things from their perspectives, it really does help them kind of get beyond the numbers and go, well, this is the actual impact on people's real lives. And I think that that's going to be a huge educational experience. um And I think when we start to think about, you know, one one of the one of the concerns a lot of colleagues have when they think about AIs, oh, it's going to diminish critical thinking and all the rest of it. But actually, critical thinking is going to be so much more important in an AI-enabled world because You've got to evaluate what you're putting into these systems. You've got to evaluate what's coming out and you've got to to to critically evaluate that within the within the context of your own values and your own experiences. So I think it's kind of bringing the information together to allow um ourselves as well as our students to to apply that critical thinking lens to these challenges. And I think um it will enhance critical thinking if it's used appropriately in the curriculum.
00:37:10
Speaker
And um and um one of those ways of thinking about that is actually it really does highlight um the ah the the carbon footprint as well of these tools. And I know Daniela touched on that. you know These things are embedded now. you know that So the default seems to be almost to go to a copilot search or being a an AI-generated search rather than a standard search. And that's using 10 times the amount of of of carbon that your standard search does. And I don't think people are really thinking about that. um And just to kind of almost circle back to to the some of the stuff that Josh said at the beginning around you know ah this sort of education piece and and the role of graduates. But absolutely everybody needs to have this kind of core understanding of the impact of their decisions.
00:37:57
Speaker
And how do we enable you know everybody, not just graduates, to kind of have that understanding and thinking that if they click on this type of surge, you're gonna use 10 times the amount of carbon as this type of surge. And so you know it's really having that that that realistic understanding of the impact of all of our actions, from the very small actions to the very big ones. And I think that's gonna be a huge challenge, you know just not just for the higher education sector, but for everybody and ah who's who's who's passionate about that. Yeah, I think it's a helpful point, Kay. um I also think that there is something around that information and disinformation and understanding what these things are. um I've certainly seen previously, you know, if you resend this email, it's going to cost X amount of carbon. and But then the reality is that it's taken into account the fact that if the computer wasn't turned on and the servers, et cetera, et cetera. So then people then start to disengage from it, don't they? Because it's almost too big and not enough. And I think there's something around making sure that
00:38:54
Speaker
um were we're we're we're creating and offering something that that is, I don't know, just just just genuine. And and you know we need to make sure that we don't turn people off from it as well and make it too big a problem. um so So I don't know, I don't know, Colleagues, what what yeah these concepts are clearly important, um but but what what are the crux of it? What is it we should be doing? What should educators be doing?
00:39:21
Speaker
What should educators who are perhaps new to this and see it as as a critical component but looking to bring this into their teaching, what is it they should be doing?
00:39:31
Speaker
um daniel i I don't know if I can come to you first on that. I think is if you if you understand education for sustainable development, it's a process where ah yourself as as ah as a tutor and educator, a student experience leader, you know ah somebody who chooses the canteen menus for the university, you know everybody can play a part here. And if you see this as as a process rather than knowing the answers to the questions,
00:40:01
Speaker
then I think that this could be a really helpful full inquiry for everybody. So, you know, it's complicated and it's really about looking at what options you have in front of you, considering deeply, you know, what's the impact of those options.
00:40:18
Speaker
be it not just environmentally, but also socially and economically. um And, you know, what is better for people on planet? And if you go through that process together, um you know, with your teams, with your students, with your with your colleagues, and then come to a decision that is considered,
00:40:37
Speaker
then I think you're engaging and in in sustainability. What we cannot have is a checklist of things saying, we are sustainable because we do this, we do that, we do that. Sustainability is about the process of consideration. And you know as Kay has said, there's a lot of greenwashing. There's a great deal of greenwashing out there. And you know we need to not only have the facts in front of us, we need to have the ability to see through facts that are not all grounded in evidence, or facts that have been distorted, um you know, and we need to be able to see through that. So not just knowing, but being able to unpack is a cre key critical skill of all of this, to be able to make some sensible decisions to be able to take forward this agenda.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think I think that's a fantastic point. And um you know University of of Western Sydney, who colleagues will probably know, sort of top the Times Higher Impact rankings for sustainability for a number of years, and Love Will Hate rankings, they have focused conversations around these issues, but they have done exactly that. They they look at their stakeholders, they look at who they're buying from, they look at their community, which which sort of spreads into quite a sort of ah deprived areas of of of Western Sydney. They look to the indigenous but populations to make sure they're supporting those.
00:42:05
Speaker
And so they are taking that holistic look at at the impact of everything they do and trying to embed that in in all of their actions. And I think that they can really provide, and you know, they'll they'll say themselves that they're not perfect. they're They're on that same development journey as all of us. But but the way that they're approaching it um is to try and take that holistic approach and think about the impact of of all of their actions from, like you say, who who are they buying ah buying things from?
00:42:33
Speaker
you know do they Do they print their their ah university brochures or strategy statements? you know what What are they doing on it on a day-to-day basis as well as those big kind of global global challenges as well?
00:42:49
Speaker
So colleagues, some really interesting points and I think it's probably time just to move us on in in terms of our in terms of our thinking, or sorry, not in terms of our thinking, but in so in terms of in terms of the questioning that that we're where we've taken. um What do we think are the big challenges over the next five years? and and And I don't ask that in terms of sustainability per se, I ask that in terms ah of sustainability from a higher education and institutional perspective for those institutions to deal with.
00:43:23
Speaker
um And um Josh, if you don't mind, i'd like I'd like to come to you first from a student perspective of what you think those challenges are that universities need to be considering. It may be within the curriculum, it may be outside of it, um but it may be broader. But what do we think those challenges are over the next five years? It's quite a large question. that um oh I'll give it a go then.
00:43:49
Speaker
No, no, and and I agree, Joss. I think it is five years until the achievement of the UN Sustainable Development Goals, though. Is that is that correct? Daniello, are you nodding there? yeah Yes. Yeah, so it's ah is ah is a very large question. but so um I think that the pace at which universities are able to change things um is often seamless, quite slow. um There are enormous institutions and in order for course changes to be made, there are so many stages and steps and approval that they have to go through and then there's the regulatory approval that needs to be granted for the accreditation of the degrees. So it takes a while for any course to have changes that are significantly made to any of the modules.
00:44:32
Speaker
And so that in in itself makes it a challenge when meeting short term deadlines. And I think there's the public perception side as well. um when When it looks like universities or education systems are like in in some opinion, like some people's opinions peddling a specific narrative, or I've heard the phrase indoctrinating young people before, there's a sort of um fairly visceral reaction from certain groups of people that a certain narrative is being peddled by educational institutions and I think making sure that the changes are well communicated and received well by students would really help to mitigate that but public perception side of things um and I think the students genuinely do want to have more up-to-date examples of how
00:45:23
Speaker
their module, how their sector and their course relates to real world challenges. And I'd argue that the climate crisis was one of the, if not the most pressing global challenge that but we as a a world are facing at the moment, because it it has such a knock-on effect for so many parts of sustainable development.
00:45:45
Speaker
I think that bringing students along with real real life examples through the way that they're taught really helps to cement that. um For engineering, for example, and some of the traditional examples of infrastructure to move towards sustainability.
00:46:07
Speaker
app really like the the comment around authentic learning experiences, and and I think that ties in with with everything from authentic experience um authentic assessments, authentic experiences, placements, how we're actually learning. um I do think there there was something in there which you said around, and which which which I interpreted around engaging students, you know, we're doing this in partnership with students so they can actually see where it lives within that curriculum rather than something that's done to them. So that that's something which of which I think is really, really important as well. um So five years to the Sustainable Development Goals, um Daniela, is it doable?
00:46:53
Speaker
ah You know, um I want to go back to to the initial question you asked about, um you know, what's the big the big challenge? And if we want to be addressing, you know, the broader vision of sustainability and the sustainable development goals, we really have to be quite frank with ourselves. And we have to engage in a in a retrospective and a self reflective piece. So whatever your role in higher education,
00:47:22
Speaker
you know, whatever it is, whether you're a director of research, whether you are in teaching and learning, whether you're working with a student experience. As I say, I think librarians can, those working in can teams, everybody estates have a really important role to play. And the key challenge for me is, can you ask yourself a question? Is the work that I'm doing, is what I am working on?
00:47:47
Speaker
acting as a mirror in society, just reflecting back at our staff and our students, what it is that's out there, the challenges, the realities? Or are we acting as a beacon, which is just showing how we can lead the way in this agenda, harnessing good practices, investing time and effort in doing different things differently?
00:48:11
Speaker
Or are we being telescopes? Are we encouraging um our stakeholders, our students to really look ahead and think about what type of future we want and therefore what should we be doing now to attain that? And if we engage in asking ourselves those three simple questions, you know, are we a mirror? Are we a beacon? Are we a telescope?
00:48:36
Speaker
And if we're able to understand our contribution to sustainability now, I think that can help us address challenges and help us move this further along the line. Because if we start getting into mapping, we start getting into conceptual challenges, I think we will lose the core of what this agenda is about. And really, to me, it's about how we make the transition.
00:49:04
Speaker
how we become, how education becomes something different to what it is currently now. And to do that, we need to have those telescopes. We need to really think ahead, it goes something back to what Anil was saying at the start, you know, we need futures thinking, we need futures education, but we also need to practice foresight in our institutions to think beyond what is immediately in front of us.
00:49:32
Speaker
Yeah, that's a real challenge as well when we think of the the economic state and climate that we currently operate in as well. But you're right, without that foresight, we're in we're in real danger because ah sadly, height hindsight is is not of much use to to any of us, is it? So so having that that forward thinking and futures thinking approach is absolutely critical. And Neil, would you like to add anything to the challenges No, absolutely. I think what Daniela is saying really reminds me of Einstein, who said, imagination is more important than knowledge, because knowledge is limited, but imagination um encircles the world. and And I think we're talking about a number of things here. But the first and I guess the most important thing is universities are under challenge.
00:50:33
Speaker
We do have existential threats. We live in the Anthropocene age. ah We have mega threats, which, as Josh was saying earlier, are felt more acutely in some parts of the world than others. So the balancing of decision making, the research that is acknowledged in publications, bibliometric, you know,
00:50:57
Speaker
analyses, rankings, you know, things all that we've all spoken about. But the last human chess champion ah was Gary Kasparov, who helped IBM develop DeepMind And he has a very interesting phrase, which which i I think really speaks volumes to where we are as higher education, the student experience, and the challenges that are with us now. And he says that human creativity starts where machine learning ends. And I think
00:51:34
Speaker
Aspects of imagination, creativity, the visceral perspectives that Josh was speaking to earlier, these affect our students, I would suggest, more than they do the faculty. um And I'm reminded again of Bill Gates' 2019 letter, who said, the future of Africa is with the youth of Africa.
00:52:00
Speaker
um But given that Africa is the youngest continent, ah Gates contends that the future of the world depends on the African youth today. So this is a critical challenge for us as universities. And I would suggest just basically three things. One is that the traditional curriculum based on logical positivism has had its stay. We really now need to think very critically about modularization, about creating partnerships, about joint programming, um rather than this competitive model of rankings that you know is reinforced. And I guess the other thing that goes hand in hand with that is that do we truly understand diversity? Do we truly understand pluralism? And I think questions around literacies,
00:52:54
Speaker
cultural literacies, religious literacies, faith literacies are very, very critical. And I think if we don't have that understanding amongst universities, I don't see another source where that will come forward, particularly as we've been talking about misinformation, disinformation, the power of sort of relegating the human intelligence away.
00:53:19
Speaker
um from critical tasks. And it's very obvious now that students all over the world are using, you know, LLMs and generative AI to create knowledge based reproduction of assignments. So really the whole assignment question, the assessment question, linking that to teaching learning and invoking students passions is is where I think is the challenge for us.
00:53:47
Speaker
Absolutely. And if I could just pick up on that last point, and I think um just ah because that the assessment and the AI question is is something that that I've been very, very engaged with as colleagues across the sector have. But, you know, if if you design assessments that that support students to address these these huge challenges that they they know that they're going to be facing um in in their lives, in their work, in their livelihoods as they go forward.
00:54:13
Speaker
then they're going to engage in the assessment. They're not going to be looking to to kind of, to to che cheat or to subvert the system because they they actually want to understand because they're passionate and they're engaged. And if you design authentic assessments situated there, you're much likely to get an authentic ah response. Yeah, they can use AI. They can use AI to draw together all the resources. But that's, as you said, Anil, that's where the human creativity, that's where the the imagination starts. So they can start to to to work with with with their with their peers ah to create solutions to the challenges. And I think if you design your assessment in that space, and ah then you're going to move forward. Daniela. Yeah, I'd like to come in because, you know, a key stakeholder we haven't spoken of today is the university leaders.
00:55:00
Speaker
the the very senior leadership of the institution. And they play a critical role in defining the student experience indirectly. But they do. ah You know, we're doing a a project with UNESCO at the moment, which is um a development program for university vice chancellors and their immediate teams, looking at ah ways in which they can reframe the strategic framing of their institution, the strategic direction of their institution,
00:55:28
Speaker
so that they provide stronger learning experiences and support for students, but also staff as the institution's transition. And I want to talk a little bit about this because, um you know, Stuart's question about how challenging is it to do this in the current environment, it's been really surprising how, um you know,
00:55:50
Speaker
There is an opportunity through this course, for example, but there are other opportunities, of course, where the university leaders bring their strategic plans to the table and we ask them to critically question their strategic plans, to ask the type of questions that Anil has been saying, you know,
00:56:12
Speaker
How have our paradigms of how we teach, of how we assess, of how we support students being shifting over time, and are we still grounded in the old ways of thinking? You know, are we really thinking ahead with that telescope vision and thinking, how does our institutions prepare students for the world that is changing so rapidly that it is difficult to teach for them to be prepared for the future?
00:56:42
Speaker
So, and it sounds really up abstract and it sounds really ambitious, but actually we've been working with 40 university leaders on their teams and there have been some very, very concrete pathways that have been identified. Now, step by step basis to look at this big questions and look at ways in which that is reflected or not reflected in the strategic plans and implementation plans of the university.
00:57:11
Speaker
And the the key phrases that come up from that experience is, which I'd like to share with you, is are we preparing our students to understand the changes that are happening in the world? Or are we preparing our students and our communities to shape and influence the world as it is changing?
00:57:33
Speaker
And I think that's been a really provocative ah thematic for me as I pose myself that question. And as I say, it sounds really high level. But actually, if you apply that on a very practical level, you get different insights into what you can do within your role at a very practical level. And I just wanted to share that because it's been a very steep learning experience for myself in that program.
00:58:02
Speaker
i I think on this point also, if I might just tag along, universities as organizational structures, if you like, are some of the oldest bodies of society. They're hundreds, and if not thousands, of years old. But I think ah we really need to learn from others, particularly industry,
00:58:30
Speaker
How do we actually communicate what we're all about? How do we add value to society in a broad way? And I would imagine more importantly from new knowledge, such as behavioral psychology, is how do we actually, with all the ethical parameters that go with it, how do we actually think about human behavior in the world? ah we There's a lot of rhetoric around de-growth and, you know, transition from fossil fuels and, you know, etc. But it again remains rhetorical.
00:59:08
Speaker
And I think it's very important that universities move towards an organisational response to society. Again, building on what Daniela has said is, why are we here? And I think that's a question we need to ask, but we also need to learn the opera modus operandi of how we actually manage that. Thank you. Colleagues, there's some really thorny issues here and um I say that as someone who has an interest in the subject, but I'm i'm i'm not i'm not submerging it as you clearly are. um And as I listen, I'm just thinking to myself, what what what are those top tips? I'm sitting here and i the argument is beyond persuasive. We know something has to change, but I'm also going to go back to my mark in my
01:00:04
Speaker
day routine, my meetings, my inbox. What what is it? what is it that What's that top tip? What's that tangible takeaway that I myself listen to this and say, I'm going to start making that difference? Daniela, I'm going to come to you if I may to to to start. I think collaborative work with peers to create some safe spaces to explore some very deep questions because they are deep questions.
01:00:32
Speaker
and to challenge yourself to do things differently requires the support of your colleagues, the support of your institution. So go out and find those people who you can talk to, who can give you that safe space, who can support, I guess, your journey and the journey of your institution towards sustainability because ultimately change processes are human processes. They're about people and how people feel and how people engage with change and we we must never forget that change can sometimes be threatening, change can sometimes be scary and working with others, taking things step by step and seeking that support I think is quite critical.
01:01:17
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Daniela. I like that collaboration and and working with peers. and And that can be even at a local level to start off with, finding out in your own institution what others are doing, um as well as you know they they those more global networks that are necessary to help helped solve and work towards this this challenge. Anil, what's your tangible tip for our listeners? Yeah, I think i think ah education, teaching, learning has embedded in it a lot of power dynamics. We know that. So I think from a student's perspective, I would suggest that my top trend tip would be that we actually as faculty support co-creation of the curriculum with our students. And I think this is extremely critical in that we sometimes have courses and programming
01:02:12
Speaker
mean in which we assume the students are tablerasa. They're coming with lived experiences. They're coming with very important reasons for why they are where they are. And they will continue after they do our courses, you know, that sort of lifelong perspective. So I think in in the the most sort of humble way, I would say is um seed power to the learners, allow them to take control of their own journey,
01:02:41
Speaker
and engage with them because the future does belong to them. And Josh, over over to you, what's what's your top tip? o I think I would and' actually break it into two top tips, both for two different audiences. I think if there's people listening who are educators or interact with students in an educational setting, I think my top tip will be to just go for it within the the scope of what they're currently teaching to add examples and to bring context that relates to climate change and sustainability into existing lectures and lessons so that
01:03:22
Speaker
even whilst the curriculum hasn't necessarily changed to embed it, there's still that link that sometime in the future students might think back to and it might change how they think about a specific problem, or it might have an impact many years in the future when certain decisions are made. um I think that can be really valuable, that sort of just slight change in in thinking, adding more context to to decisions. And I think if my Top tip was being taken by people who lead universities. I think I would i would go along the side um that's already been mentioned of bringing students along with changes to curriculum, bringing them along to co-create what they want to see and to really empower academics to add context when it comes to sustainability themselves and to really promote and suggest that so that
01:04:15
Speaker
in the short term um because we are up against a clock to try and meet some of these goals. Just that context of sustainability can be embedded as much as possible and as quickly as possible so that the impact can be felt by students graduating this year, next year, rather than it being something that's felt by students many years in the future by the time curriculums that have actually been changed and approved.
01:04:38
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Josh, and and and appreciate your creativity and giving us two top tips. Before I come to Kay, I'm going to ask you for for a third top tip, and you've given us the educators and you've given us the the leaders. What about the students themselves? what's ah i'm I'm hoping and trusting we have student listeners to our ah to our podcast. what was What's the top tip for students?
01:05:00
Speaker
Ooh, I'd say if you are at all interested in sustainability to try and find links between what you're currently learning and current sustainability projects that are occurring. And then if you want to talk about them further, bring them up in tutorials in group settings. um And then it can be you that ends up starting the conversation with academics and with your your fellow students. So it might be you that creates that prompt to start the conversation that in the future changes how someone makes a decision or thinks about a specific outcome.
01:05:30
Speaker
um And I think when it comes that way, it can actually help the academics to know that it's something students want to know about. So just be vocal. um do Do further learning yourself um and bring it up when you can. that that's a great That's a great suggestion. And I think you know what what we saw at Violence HE when we did the literature review, which published a couple of years ago now, there there were some really great examples of passionate projects ah or sort passionate individuals driving projects and whether that's students or or ah or ah educators.
01:06:05
Speaker
um And you know that they provided some really translational and experiential learning opportunities. But I think to really drive the agenda forward, we need to be able to evaluate the impact of the of this um on students because our ultimate goal is actually to support students ah to to be able to address sustainable challenges. you know I think ah Daniela made that point very early on in his podcast. you know the The end goal of this is that we're developing the next a group of people who can take on these challenges in a really systematic way. So it has to we we need evaluation because without that, institutions are a little bit sort of you know reluctant to act and that we can really demonstrate the evidence of what we're doing. And then that will help sort drive the agenda forward beyond
01:06:53
Speaker
and the sort of addressing sustainability as a tick box exercise, again, as colleagues have said, to make sure that it really has that transformative impact. Yeah, I'd like to add to that, if I may, because I think the sector bodies play a really critical part in helping institutions transition. I think, you know, there was some there's been some fantastic initiatives, seed funding and guidelines and support from um you know, sector agencies such as Advanced Aging previously, the Higher Education Academy, you know, the QAA and Hefke previous to that that have made some very tangible changes in the sector. And I think I'd like to see that continue maybe deeper. I think a lot of universities currently are now gone beyond the experimenting phase of trying to work out what this agenda is about. And they're looking to mainstream it. They're looking to embedding it in the institution.
01:07:51
Speaker
I would love to see the sector bodies coming up with some quality frameworks now and saying, if you know, looks good, great. But if you really want to evaluate or assess what you're doing as being quality, it needs to have these key things happening, you know, and student engagement and student voice and student driven change is perhaps one of those key quality criteria.
01:08:18
Speaker
you know, ah redefining student success, which is this podcast is all about in the context of being able to do rather than being able to know is another key quality criteria that I think should be signalled. So I want to thank the sector bodies for what they've done so far, but also encourage them, I think, to play that really important role of taking this agenda to the next level.
01:08:45
Speaker
Thank you, Daniella. And yes, you're right. I think there's there's a call to action um across the sector for all students, educators, leaders, sector bodies, governments and beyond. I'd like to thank all of our guests today. Josh, Anil, Daniella, thank you so much to my co-host, Kay Hack.
01:09:09
Speaker
On this episode, all of your insights have been invaluable. um Before we go, I did want to remind our listeners that there are a wealth of resources, including the the recent literature review conducted by by colleagues at King's University London, the Educational Sustainable Development Framework, which was launched a little over ah a year, or just under a year ago now. um And there is also an Advanced HE Symposium in the new year.
01:09:36
Speaker
Again, details are available on the website. But there are a number of ways that colleagues can get involved, and I'd encourage you to do that. We'll be back next time with a podcast on assessment and feedback. And actually, what was very apparent to me today was conversations around authenticity, around co-creation, around AI, um around creativity. And I'm sure these are things that are going to come up in that podcast as well.
01:10:04
Speaker
um It promises to be an equally exciting episode. But until then, I would ask our listeners to stay curious. Do you tell your colleagues and friends. And please do hit that share button and like button. And we look forward to welcoming you back in approximately a month's time. Thank you all.