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Episode 3: Developing reflective and courageous leadership
46 Plays1 month ago
Dr Christopher D. Lewis is Associate Dean (Education) and Associate Professor (Educational Leadership) at Buckinghamshire New Universityand Hayley Burns, Deputy Dean for the Faculty of Computing, Engineering and Science at the University of South Wales explore strategic leadership development within higher education.
Both reflect on their journeys through Advance HE’s Strategic Leadership Programme, emphasising balance between strategic and operational priorities, authenticity and confidence amid rapid sectoral change. Christopher highlights learning to lead calmly, building peer networks and confronting imposter syndrome, while Hayley discusses navigating dual academic–professional identities, cultural adaptation and the value of “third-space” leadership.
Together they champion reflective, courageous and collaborative leadership as essential to sustaining quality and transformation in universities.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Talking Transformation'
00:00:13
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello.
Leadership and Structural Changes in Higher Education
00:00:15
Speaker
Welcome to Talking Transformation, the podcast where we look at all things higher education, transformation and change. My name is Charles Knight, the Director of Leadership Governance and Management at Advanced HE.
00:00:29
Speaker
In our last episode, we looked at leadership through the lens of large-scale structural changes, and we explored some of the broad challenges and shifts shaping the higher education sector as we head towards 2026.
Individual Leadership Development and Institutional Change
00:00:43
Speaker
This time around, we're zooming in, and I want to explore leadership at a more personal level. The real journeys that individuals take as they grow into senior roles, navigate complexity, and adapt their leadership in response to institutional and sectorial change.
00:00:59
Speaker
We know as an organization that the development of capable, confident leaders is a strategic priority for many of our member institutions. And that's why in our member benefit offer this year, you can see a whole range of programs to support your leadership team and your managers.
00:01:15
Speaker
And this is from our leadership survival series through to our executive leaders webinar.
Introduction to Dr. Christopher Lewis
00:01:21
Speaker
So now I'll speak to someone who's recently completed our senior leadership development program to think about how it's influenced their thinking and is shaping their practice as an academic leader.
00:01:33
Speaker
So I'm delighted to welcome my first guest today, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Associate Dean Education, College of Creative Arts, Technology and Engineering at Buckinghamshire New University.
00:01:46
Speaker
Chris, good morning. Good morning, Charles. Good to be here today. Good. I'm never sure if I should say good morning because these podcasts could be listened to at any time, but it's very good to have have have you with us.
Role of Dr. Lewis in Educational Leadership
00:01:56
Speaker
So just to give us a little bit of context to to listeners, and can you briefly tell us about your current role and your responsibilities within your institution? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm currently Associate dean Education, as you said, at Buckinghamshire University within the College of Creative Arts Technology and Engineering. I'm also Associate Professor of Educational Leadership. And my role is all about strategic educational development across both the very diverse offerings of our college, which mix both creative and technological disciplines.
Dr. Lewis on Regulatory Alignment and TEF Consultation
00:02:32
Speaker
And my role all about everything from improving student outcomes with a very keen focus on academic quality and ensuring that we have very suitable regulatory alignment.
00:02:44
Speaker
So quite an interesting role. And I also work for the Office for Students as one of their lead assessors, which keeps me yeah also very occupied alongside my day-to-day role.
00:02:56
Speaker
and that's And for ah members of the United King, that's very topical because the OFS is currently doing consultation.
Balancing Strategic and Operational Responsibilities
00:03:02
Speaker
on all things TEF and regulation, which we'll see the outcome of some point next year.
00:03:08
Speaker
Just a quick point, I guess, an observation from me. So in a previous life, um I've been an Associate Dean. and I was an Associate Dean for Student Experience at the University of Salford. And before we get into your kind of leadership journey, one of my observations, and I'm interested in your views, the Associate Dean roles are really interesting because they're both a mix of Above, people see you as part of being able to pull some of the strategic levers and some of the big changes.
00:03:34
Speaker
And then the joy, I say joy, some of the joys of the job is you kind of you can get really involved in a lot of the operational things. So colleagues around you think you know you're the person who can help them with a lot of operational.
00:03:46
Speaker
And the role's really interesting because you I was always trying to trade off the dynamic of those two different tensions. I don't know if that's something that that you see in your kind of day-to-day practice.
Motivation for Leadership Program Participation
00:03:56
Speaker
Definitely, yes. i think I think it's when you put the word education in a role, it does mean that everything comes flying towards you.
00:04:05
Speaker
And you're right, it's very much the strategic level, but it's also that day-to-day operational level. And finally, the the appropriate balance of that is is always quite challenging and challenging.
00:04:16
Speaker
Coming on to the strategic leadership course, that is pretty much why I wanted to take that course, was to make sure that I was able to balance both the strategic and priorities along with the day-to-day operational in an effective and an impactful way.
00:04:33
Speaker
That was always the priority. Yeah, that's a great segue, actually. to to So ah you came on to our senior leadership development program, which is a program we've offered for a number of years for specifically ah the reasons you mentioned. So I guess part of it was, as you've just mentioned, that that challenge you have of trying to trade off those different objectives. And I guess you were looking for kind of development in in frameworks and different ways to operate and to operate in that complicated environment.
00:05:01
Speaker
Indeed, yes. I remember actually saying to the coordinators that the frameworks were what I was particularly looking for. I think I'm the kind of person that if I see a problem, I dive straight into it. I see something that needs fixing and I will be immediately prioritising trying to sort that. and i think part of taking this course was I wanted to be able to step back and be able to see the bigger picture.
00:05:24
Speaker
And maybe the priority from yesterday was the one I should be continuing to focus on rather than trying to work on today's
Impact of Leadership Program on Dr. Lewis
00:05:30
Speaker
priority. And so being able to find a way of working through um priorities in an effective and manageable way, that was absolutely what I wanted to get out of this course.
00:05:39
Speaker
Yeah. And and it's you mentioned about priorities. i i I always and still struggle with this in the sense that because something is a priority for someone else doesn't mean it's naturally, it should be a priority for you.
00:05:51
Speaker
and And the other thing about, that trade-off we've just talked about and how you've used the course to develop is, is that really difficult bit of ain't what's the point at which I should step in or become involved in solving this, or what's the point at which I enable or suggest to someone else that they continue to try and solve that problem. I always find that balance really tricky. So I don't know.
00:06:13
Speaker
I don't know if the program helped you with that question, which I still wrestle with. I'm nodding my head vigorously at what you're saying there, Charles. Yes. It's, It's very true. I think it did help. um Of course, we're in the situation at the moment where higher education is in such...
00:06:28
Speaker
flux, such transition, such change, that that managing to deal with these priorities just becomes something that's ever present. So the the the more help and assistance I think we can all have collectively in terms of how to prioritize and effective in effective and a strategic way, the better.
00:06:47
Speaker
So if I can ask, so has the has the program helped you understand better your own leadership style, the way that you operate? Yes, I would say so. I would quite confidently say that. I think it's allowed me to be able to step back and to be able to think strategically, to be able to shape the solution.
00:07:09
Speaker
And perhaps it's been able to help me bring other people along the journey with me. i think yeah ah Historically, I think a lot of the problems I would be trying to tackle myself rather than involving the team more.
00:07:21
Speaker
um being able to delegate in a more efficient way, essentially navigating through complex change in a much more efficient um way. And I think what it's allowed me personally to do is just be able to tackle problems in a calmer, more methodical way.
00:07:39
Speaker
um I wouldn't say I was particularly... I a bit un-calm before this, but certainly i feel a lot more confident now in being able to step into these these difficult challenges. And in no small part was that thanks to the um some of the frameworks we talked
Authenticity in Leadership and Imposter Syndrome
00:07:54
Speaker
about. But I think just the confidence, spending you know a week or so with with senior colleagues, just being able to focus on what it is that you do and how you do it, along with the support of of the coordinators of the programme,
00:08:09
Speaker
it allowed me to really be able to think about how I show up, how I listen and how I influence. Yeah, it's yeah it's it's really interesting. There's a lot I could unpack there. And I think The point you mentioned there that about the working with other senior leaders and coming together, I think from my perspective, in leadership development, some of the most powerful lessons we take are not so much from the formal elements of leadership development programs or
00:08:44
Speaker
interactions, but that peer network that you get and the cross institutional perspectives. and So, you know, like from what you've said, the opportunity to engage with peers from other universities provides a lot of value.
00:08:58
Speaker
It really does. And of course, there's ah there's a residential as part of this, where inevitably you go out, you you have a couple of drinks and have a nice dinner and all of this kind of thing. And that's potentially where some of the real conversation happens. That's where some of the really authentic networking begins, um along with these very intense day-to-day conversations.
00:09:18
Speaker
um the training sessions that you have with everybody. It allows for a really nice mix of both the formal and the informal. um it's It's beautifully coordinated. I think it's ah it's it's a really effective course.
00:09:30
Speaker
And of course, what fascinated me was the number of people that were quite open about the ah the dreaded imposter syndrome um and the fact that you're sitting there in a room of you know senior leaders and how many people were perhaps uncomfortable with that title myself very much included in that know I don't want to bring this on to imposter syndrome that quickly but it's one of these things that is almost refreshing to hear other other people talk about to know that it's not just you yeah I think there's a there's a moment that every leader has when they're in a room and you realize that everybody's looking to you but the for the for the steer or the
00:10:09
Speaker
ah for the answer. And I i totally understand what you're saying about imposter syndrome, because there is this element, isn't there? Because we we exist in our own heads. And you see other people and they're so you know they're so composed and they've got it all together. And I always remember in one of my first leadership experiences, working with someone and and think, wow, they're so together.
00:10:29
Speaker
And then i after we did this really difficult meeting, I went to their office and they said, was I okay? I thought that was, I was terrible. I was like, that was amazing. You were really good. So it it kind of is good. I think you're right actually, because sometimes we talk about leadership as a process.
00:10:44
Speaker
But there is this kind of um emotional individual aspect about as individuals, because I think one of the things that I never really anticipated before I did leadership roles is the kind of emotional journey that you go on. So I always have this thing about, I try to do the best thing, but sometimes you have to do really difficult things.
00:11:01
Speaker
And that can be quite emotionally difficult, especially as well if you're thinking, am I the right person to be making these decisions? So I'm really glad you said that. Yeah. but Well, indeed. and And I have to say, you know, I do remember saying to one of the coordinators, Lisa, and I have to say Lisa and Carice is part of this process, we're just absolutely fabulous from start to finish.
00:11:22
Speaker
Brilliant. And I did say to Lisa, who was also my coach. for this and this is one of the most valuable parts of this strategic leadership course is the opportunity to engage in coaching and mentoring something i hadn't done before and it's something that i've actively sought since because it's so incredibly valuable but i do remember the saying to lisa at the start of the course saying, I just don't think I'm going to be contributing to this. I said, so don't don't think you're doing a bad job if I'm sat at the back, you know, not saying anything, because I didn't know how I was going to respond being in this space with very senior leaders. and
00:11:59
Speaker
The reality was, I don't think I shut up from start to finish, because the course is done in such a way, it's so excessively. And it's so inclusive that you want to contribute. so And because the conversations, the dialogue that's happening around you, this is something that you live and breathe day to day in your professional working life.
00:12:18
Speaker
And I defy any senior leader to not want to contribute um and and to not want to engage with this. Yeah. um So I guess this is slightly tricky question, but I'll put you on the spot with it a bit, which is, you know, hey hey to you how do you see your kind of leadership approach and style continuing to evolve?
00:12:37
Speaker
Especially as you mentioned earlier, higher education has become so complicated, so fast moving, so many moving pieces. You know, what's what's kind of I guess, what's next for you in your journey?
00:12:49
Speaker
It's a very good question, Charles. Thank you. I wasn't expecting that. I think the more authenticity we can see from leaders, the better.
00:13:00
Speaker
And I think now is the time for leaders to to step to step up and to talk out, to speak out, to say what they're seeing in the sector, to see what they're the problems that they're encountering, to see how the student journey, the student and voice is not being heard, not being
Reflective and Resilient Leadership
00:13:20
Speaker
communicated. And I think we've all got a responsibility to do that.
00:13:23
Speaker
um I mean, LinkedIn is one of these these great platforms for thought leadership. But for for me, the the leaders that i perhaps admire and respect the most are the ones that I'm seeing speaking out at the moment. And they're being quite open and authentically honest about some of the problems and issues that we are seeing and facing in the sector.
00:13:46
Speaker
mean, ultimately, the student experience, UK higher education is something we're all incredibly proud of, but it's at risk at the moment. And I think we need to be open and honest about that. And we need to make sure that we collectively are putting in place on processes and procedures and making sure that quality is always at the focus of everything that we do to make sure that the students truly are receiving that value for money, so you know, quality student experience.
00:14:13
Speaker
I think the more we can see from our leaders ah in terms of being open, being honest and being authentic, the better. That's really interesting. So obviously, we're a global membership organization. And um um what you say really resonates with me, because it's something that I hear both in the United Kingdom and also internationally, when i we talk to our members in MENA and other regions, it's something that comes up. And I think at the core of of what you're saying, and I'm doing a talk in a few weeks at the Association of Learning Technologists.
00:14:43
Speaker
And I used to do these talks, and they're very technocratic. i used see these very technocratic talks about process and so on. But it's interesting, I come to a very similar conclusion to you that one of the things we need from leadership chip at the moment is courage.
00:14:56
Speaker
And it's that courage to speak out. And i'm this i'm i it's funny, actually, LinkedIn, I came to very much same conclusion as you. think this is not a time for higher education leaders to be quiet. This is a time for higher education leaders to, if I can put it as bluntly, is this fight our corner.
00:15:11
Speaker
and and And we see it, again, not just the United Kingdom. In various ah nation states where we have members, there's a kind of persistent attention on higher education does it give a value for money does it align with the national mission and so on and so on and i think a big part of leadership is stepping forwards and having the courage to speak publicly and and i think you made a point earlier about authenticity and i think that's part of the authenticity that staff want to see um
00:15:44
Speaker
I entirely agree. And I don't want to inflate your ego here, Charles, but i i I do think some of your thought leadership, there was one post in particular, I won't um i won't cite it here in this podcast, that I think really resonated with with me and I think resonated with the sector.
00:16:00
Speaker
more generally and i think it's great to see thought leadership coming from organizations like advanced agee you know this is this is what we need we need to foster ah the priorities to make sure that that we're aligned you know we we need to be aligned together um but yeah absolutely i think authenticity and i totally agree leaders need to speak out Yeah. and Just to finish off, um what do you think the sector needs to do then to support senior leaders and people moving into senior leadership posts in the next two to three years?
00:16:34
Speaker
What's the kind of things that that you think the sector could do more of?
Introduction to Hayley Burns' Leadership Journey
00:16:38
Speaker
I think we need to all think very carefully about how we stay reflective, how we stay resilient.
00:16:45
Speaker
um I think that's what's going to drive the sector forwards. I think we need to invest much more in leadership. I think more people should be able to to undertake courses like this strategic leadership course to give them the confidence to think about how they work with others to build on that collective practice. I leadership is not an individual skill set.
00:17:05
Speaker
Leadership is all about how you work and how you collaborate with others. um And I think ultimately, it just we need to have more time to think. We need to stop being so reactive.
00:17:15
Speaker
And as a sector, we need to be able to just take that breath, just make sure we're aligned, just make sure we've got the time for that focus. I don't think we've always got that at the moment.
00:17:26
Speaker
Thank you. That was Dr. Christopher Lewis. My next guest, Hayley Burns, is the Interim Director of Operations at the Business School at BCU.
00:17:38
Speaker
Hello, Hayley. hello Very nice to have you with us. And just for listeners, I think, oh, didn't we have someone from BCU on your last episode? When we arranged the podcast, I hadn't realized that I'd scheduled them this way. So any BCU u fans out there, you get another dose of BCU u this week.
Adapting Leadership Style to Organizational Culture
00:17:56
Speaker
So in this episode, and as I was just discussing with my previous previous guest, um we're talking about leadership journeys. so And could you briefly tell us about your current role and what you do within your institution?
00:18:11
Speaker
So I only joined at BCU, this is week four for me. So it's a fairly new role as well. There's been a restructuring and the director of school operations is new. ah I'm coming, I think, at a really exciting time because ah following restructuring, it's now about ah putting the infrastructure in place within the school, um setting up all the systems and processes um and starting to think about culture, which are the things I get really excited about.
00:18:38
Speaker
Yeah. and And obviously we've talked before the podcast and I joined the University of Salford in a previous role. I joined the business school at a very similar point. And there's something very exciting as in in a kind of leadership journey when, if I can put it this way, you're trying to understand the culture of the organization you join and you have that lovely experience as well.
00:18:58
Speaker
you have to forget how the acronyms that you knew in a previous institution, you may hear similar acronyms, but they mean completely different things. And there's always that fun where have to say to people, I don't, what what does that mean?
00:19:11
Speaker
And there's that kind of sense-making. But as you say, the cultural piece, getting to know the culture of an organization and ah really kind of understanding the nuances of
Underutilization of Leadership Development Programs
00:19:22
Speaker
it. And we'll talk a bit more about this in detail because like,
00:19:25
Speaker
You, i have worked in a number of institutions and it's endlessly fascinating to me. As a leader, you have to think about what does my style change slightly in this institution to how we operate in a previous institution? You know, obviously, you're only four weeks in. But is that the do do you have those kind of experiences as well?
00:19:44
Speaker
Yeah, I do. i'm I've actually come from spending an awful lot of time in another institution. But I've been a QA reviewer for over 12 years. So I've had experience of other organizations, lots of different types of provider.
00:19:56
Speaker
So it it is has been interesting for me to see the differences in culture. And I think I probably have to a certain degree adapted my style. ah But actually, you might come to realize this as we go through the podcast, I'm quite an authentic, very open, transparent kind of individual. So um i don't think I've adapted style.
00:20:18
Speaker
behavior and my approach to it um in in any great detail. Yeah, that's fair. So... ah that that's fair um so As with my previous guest, sorry as with my previous guest um you undertook our senior leadership development programme.
00:20:36
Speaker
ah Would you like to give us any thoughts about your experience on that? um and And I guess I'm asking in the context of, we know that leadership development is really important to the sector and in many areas to be frank, it's underutilised and it's under-resourced in some institutions. So it's so
Career Journeys and Academic Administration
00:20:52
Speaker
important. What's your experience doing the programme and what did it do for you?
00:20:57
Speaker
I came to the program at a really pivotal point in my career. and So I had, i' I'm an unusual character Charles in that I have ah had a very unusual background. I've moved between academic roles and professional services roles.
00:21:14
Speaker
And I had an experience really on in my career where I'd been lecturing at university in film and television. That was my degree. I'd been doing some research for a couple of my professors and, um,
00:21:28
Speaker
I wanted to do my PhD. I went to see one of my professors to talk about it. And he said in one sentence, ah you don't have the creative imagination to do a PhD. And that was, yeah, yeah.
00:21:40
Speaker
And I, at that time, I didn't really question him. I didn't really think he was wrong. um So immediately the next day I started applying for administration roles in HE instead.
00:21:52
Speaker
And i tell you this story because I don't think I realized until I applied for my the role before this one as a deputy dean, I don't think realised how pivotal the moment that was.
00:22:04
Speaker
ah And so that's kind of shaped everything that's come after in my career. And when I became a deputy dean, that brought me back, as I thought, to um the path that I had always meant to be on.
00:22:17
Speaker
But even in that role, I then started to face challenges around being that character that had moved from a professional service leadership role into an academic leadership role. There are still a lot of perceptions out there about the ability for someone to do that.
00:22:32
Speaker
And there were a lot of questions I think asked, not by my immediate team. Um, I don't think anybody asked me what my qualifications were within my faculty, but leadership started to question, um, whether someone like me could really take that space.
00:22:47
Speaker
Hmm. that's that's That's really interesting because if if I can just offer a quick parallel, I've never told this story before, so this is a first. I've never told it. I had a choice to do a PhD in information systems or to do sociology, and I really fancy sociology.
00:23:03
Speaker
And I went to speak to a very famous sociologist who had funding, who remained nameless, and his words to me is that this isn't for people like you.
00:23:15
Speaker
And I did an information systems PhD with an excellent professor called David Allen, and it kind of took my career in a different direction. But it's it's really interesting interesting how leadership journeys, those small moments, send you off one way or or the other.
Challenges of Cross-Role Leadership
00:23:30
Speaker
And the other thing that you mentioned in there, I think, is really interesting about leadership development and leadership journeys.
00:23:36
Speaker
And just, you know, being honest and candid about it, I think higher education still has this binary problem where the sector is really keen to put you into boxes as a leader.
00:23:47
Speaker
So you're either a professional services leader or you're an academic leader and up to and including. And this has always blown my mind. um you could be one of the most powerful academic figures in an institution, but the institution says you cannot manage professional services staff.
00:24:06
Speaker
And equally the other way around, you could be the most powerful professional services figure and amazing leadership credentials, but the institution says, oh no, it's impossible. The two don't mix, the oil and water.
00:24:17
Speaker
And I'm really interested in what you said there about the perceptions that that gives people. And it's a really strange thing It's really strange to me because if you look at it the other way, your experience gives you ah really deep understanding of how things integrate and knit together.
00:24:34
Speaker
And if you look at the complexity of universities, we need leaders who understand that integration. That's my perception. I don't know what yours is. I could not agree more. And it makes me very happy to hear you say that.
00:24:47
Speaker
Because just going back to your point around um people being in boxes, done a little bit of research on this and because I'd had such a ah problematic kind of 18 months. And actually, it's more common for an academic leader to move into a professional services role.
00:25:02
Speaker
I've found a number of colleagues who've done that across the sector. I'm sure there are people out there, but even with a call out on LinkedIn, i could not find anybody who'd done what I'd done, which is to move from professional services into an academic leadership role. I think that's far less common.
00:25:16
Speaker
um But again, i agree with what you've said there. If you look at my career history, I've worked in almost all of the subject areas across an institution. I've worked with a number of departments in professional services.
00:25:30
Speaker
I think there's a danger that if you've come the academic route and the work you've done is on a specific subject area, you'll take that into all of your leadership roles. What I would bring to the table there is that I have an understanding of the majority of subject areas. I wouldn't come with a bias.
00:25:46
Speaker
um I wouldn't come with baggage. And i as you say, i would really understand the interconnections between academic life, financial services life, and how that all comes together to run a university business.
Adapting to Changing Contexts in Leadership
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah, this is this is something that we as an organisation see quite a lot. But one of the challenges for, and this is why leadership to development is so important, one of the challenges for leaders often who've come from a particular academic tradition is they're not aware of how things operate in other traditions. So they try and see everything through the lens of the tradition.
00:26:20
Speaker
And a really good example of this is I worked with a um STEM, somebody come up the STEM route and and became leader of a faculty in a completely different area.
00:26:31
Speaker
And he he said to me, I don't understand why the academics don't turn out 15 papers a year. I just, why aren't they capable of doing it? And I said, what background are you from? And he said, mathematics. And i said, okay, I don't know anything about mathematics, but in business schools, that's really uncommon because you aim for a smaller number and it just never clicked with them.
00:26:48
Speaker
And as you say, from the from from working on professional associates background, you get to see the broadness of the institution. And if I can just talk a little bit about our member benefits this year. So obviously we have our member benefits, which are available to all members.
00:27:03
Speaker
And when we think about designing them and the philosophy of them, we think a lot about who's the audience. And one of the things we thought about a lot in our member benefits is we need to make sure we've got things that support different levels of leaders.
00:27:17
Speaker
And we don't even mean formal leaders because lots of people are doing informal leadership roles. So across the member benefits this year, we've got stuff aimed at heads of department because that's a very specific type of leadership management role through to the exec.
00:27:31
Speaker
And then over in the education space, we have a change academy running that's there to help leaders us work out and effectively how to project manage specific change management processes.
00:27:42
Speaker
And the reason I mentioned that is I do worry sometimes about the level of specialism, if we want to call it that, that people bring. And I think the challenge for higher education leadership is having more of a broader skill set and being able to adapt to changing context.
Value of Peer Networks in Leadership Development
00:28:01
Speaker
I put a LinkedIn post, my most popular LinkedIn post by far, massive, which was about the fact that if you look at senior roles, the portfolios are just getting so big.
00:28:13
Speaker
Institutions are shrinking the number of senior leaders. So the portfolios get enormous. And the skill set you need to manage that portfolio is just amazing. um So just going back to the senior leadership development program, one of the conversations I had with my previous guest was around the fact that I think one of the powerful things about doing developmental programs are the peer networks and interacting with your peers. Is that something you found?
00:28:41
Speaker
Absolutely. um i was we We were a cohort that met online first rather than me face to face. And I was a bit worried going into that, that that might mean that we didn't gel or really connect.
00:28:55
Speaker
But actually, I found that a really valuable part of the experience. So when we did eventually get to meet in person, ah those relationships were already formed. And I feel like we got much more out of the experience as a result of that.
00:29:07
Speaker
um We have kept in touch. um And for me, again, having worked in one institution for a long time um and being in that period of self-doubt and working out whether I was in the right place,
00:29:20
Speaker
hearing about other institutions and colleagues' experiences in those was really helpful to me in terms of me navigating what I thought were going to be my next steps. So it was hugely invaluable to be exposed to colleagues, again, from across academic areas and professional service areas.
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think that's right. And um I've had similar peer networks and they're so useful because also they give you that externality if you've got a problem that you can talk to people. So I think for leaders, you get the kind of formal frameworks and stuff on leadership development, but it's also about peer networks.
Leadership Roles and Personal Identity
00:29:54
Speaker
And again, our member benefits this year are very much designed with that philosophy of making sure that there's lots of and networking between peers because it's a kind of multiplier.
00:30:05
Speaker
and Something else actually you and we've talked about before the podcast is um I know that you you gave a talk about your career and you talked about in the talk about when you became a deputy dean and then there were conversations about you know, what's the route to Dean and could you be a Dean if you do not have a research profile, which is a really common thing that comes up.
00:30:27
Speaker
Even if you're in a heavily teaching focused skills, like where's the research track record, which is a whole strange thing that we could take over the whole podcast on. But I know, and I hope you don't mean mind me mentioning this, that when you became a deputy dean that started questions for you about who you were as a leader in your professional identity and i'm up front with people about this i got to a point where it was my next step potentially was going to be a dean and i thought about it i thought actually you know what i don't want dean so there's that every time i think one of the things i just wanted to see is every time on the leadership journey the next step always feels like this is it if i get this next step this is it and then you get there and you think okay
00:31:08
Speaker
but what's my next step on my journey?
Third Space Professionals in Higher Education
00:31:10
Speaker
So i'm kind of interested in your reflections about and about about that bit of your journey. Yeah, so i described um that my deputy dean role as being my my perfect job.
00:31:25
Speaker
Like that was always, when we go back to what I talked about at the beginning about wanting to be on an academic journey and the experience i had with my professor, in my mind, in my mind, I was working towards the deputy dean role.
00:31:39
Speaker
Very comfortable in that space. And when I, my experience of other universities is that deputy dean space is very much around day-to-day operations of running a faculty. Your dean role is a bit more externally facing. ah So for me, that was the space I wanted to be in as deputy dean.
00:31:56
Speaker
But you're right, as soon as you reach that position, I'm of the age where I've probably got another 20 years that's my career. So what comes next? And I hadn't at all been thinking necessarily about being a dean.
00:32:09
Speaker
But my dean then got a job elsewhere about 18 months into me being a deputy dean. And so that's when I started to think about actually taking that next step.
00:32:19
Speaker
So what I find interesting about this and your leadership journey is I've seen more of a... if I can put it this way, more of an identification and and coming together of of what are broadly called the third space or third space professionals.
00:32:38
Speaker
And it's something I become really interested in, in my role here at Advanced HE, because I came from a traditional academic background broadly. But the more I got into leadership roles, I realized, again, you need that integration and that but bringing together people across the institution.
Integrated Leadership Roles Across Boundaries
00:32:53
Speaker
And I started become more involved with third space professionals, which is individuals for those listening whose career span the academic and non-academic roles, which is what you've done.
00:33:05
Speaker
um I guess one of the challenges which we talked about a bit is it creates this tension that people start to think, oh, you're not qualified for that space or that space. i don't know what your views are about and how much you identify with that kind of third space badging.
00:33:19
Speaker
it's It's a really interesting question. So I didn't really until relatively recently identify as that third space because everything I'd read about it to date had been what you've just described there. It's a role that spans the academic and professional services.
00:33:33
Speaker
Because I've moved in and out of them, I didn't think I was necessarily a third space professional. And then I started reading and Celia Whitchurch's research and there were four kind of categories of ah third space professionals. And when I looked at those four, I actually identified with three of them.
00:33:50
Speaker
So I do now definitely um identify as a third space professional.
00:33:57
Speaker
What was the other part of your question? No, it was just it was just kind of it wasn about just about that third space, professional space, and if you if you thought you did. because in the it Because what I'm really, I guess, i'm I'm interested in, and again, going back to our member benefits, we try to think quite carefully about it, lots of the leadership development is kind of for people in clearly defined spaces and those clearly defined career trajectories.
00:34:20
Speaker
But I think the way higher education is going, especially with new private providers, both the United Kingdom and internationally, I think we are going to see more permeability, if you can put it that way, of people moving across. And when I, just in ah in an ad hoc way, when I track on LinkedIn, some of my peers, people are more than previously moving sideways. But actually, to take your point, there's more movement from academic to professional services than there is the other way.
00:34:48
Speaker
But I still think we are going to see more of that that blurring and and and people moving around just because of the complexity of the space.
Conclusion and Member Benefits
00:34:55
Speaker
What do you think? Yeah, I've, um before I got the role here, i obviously, so I spoke with a number of recruitment agencies, headhunters about my experience, because I was still trying to work out where where do I fit in terms of a career path.
00:35:09
Speaker
And I think without exception, they all said to me that a kind of background of experience, professional services and academic roles is something that they felt the sector really needed.
00:35:19
Speaker
What we're doing at the moment isn't working anymore. So actually, what does the future look like? And all of those people I spoke to said, they felt that people who who have worked across both areas are the future for leadership in HE is moving.
00:35:35
Speaker
That seems a fantastic point to stop. um Hayley, thank you. That's been absolutely fascinating. I could talk to you for hours on this point, so I think we're goingnna have to have to at some point.
00:35:46
Speaker
Thank you for taking the time to join us today. Thank you for the invitation. Thanks again to my guests for sharing such thoughtful reflections on their leadership journey. It's a reminder that while structural transformation is essential, it's the decisions and development of individual leaders that often shape how change is experienced.
00:36:05
Speaker
If you're interested in any of the member benefits that we discussed today, you can find more information on our website. As always, thanks for listening and stay connected for more conversations on leadership, change and transformation in higher education.