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Episode 4: Flexible Learning
10 Plays1 hour ago
Join us this month as we explore flexible learning. Our expert panel discusses what flexible learning means, how it can enhance the student experience, and improve accessibility in higher education. We also delve into the role of technology in higher education and discuss ways to help remote students feel a sense of belonging at their institutions.
Host Stuart Norton is joined by Advance HE's Kay Hack, as well as Lydia Arnold, Associate Pro Vice-Chancellor, Harper Adams University, Stella Jones-Devitt, Professor of Critical Pedagogy, independent HE practitioner and Visiting Professor at Leeds Beckett University, David Santandreu Calonge, Head, Educational Program Development, Mohamed bin Zayed University of Artificial Intelligence and Natalia Calle Alva, a student studying flexibly across Universidad del Pacifico and the University of London.
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Transcript
Introduction and Series Overview
00:00:12
Speaker
Hello listeners and welcome to our podcast, Student Success Pod. I'm your host Stuart Norton and here we continue to discuss the core thematic areas of student success.
00:00:23
Speaker
Please do remember to follow the series to make sure you stay up to date with new episodes and activity related to student success.
The Evolution of Flexible Learning
00:00:31
Speaker
I'm again joined by a colleague and co-host Dr Kay Hack.
00:00:35
Speaker
Kay, hello. Hello, Stuart. Yeah, I'm Kay Hack. I'm lead consultant education with Advance HE. I have had a long history thinking about flexible learning. um I was actually involved in the original guide that was published back in 2016, although I was external to the Higher Education Academy in in the work leading up to that.
00:00:58
Speaker
And it's something that um I think has been really important, i think, through all my kind of working life in higher education. I was course director of one of the very first ah distance learning programs um offered online to support healthcare practitioners upskill, obviously, while they were still working.
Global Perspectives on Flexible Learning
00:01:16
Speaker
And that really just opened my eyes to thinking about, yes, we can provide access to learning with the new technologies, but learning is so much more than that. So I think that that's where I've always been interested in in how we engage the whole person in flexible learning.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Kay. And it's clearly a topic that impacts globally. um To add to the conversation, we have four fabulous guests from across the sector and indeed across the globe talking to all things Flex from their perspective and sharing their insights with you, our listeners.
00:01:48
Speaker
Hello, Natalia. Hello. Hello, everyone. ah My name is Natalia. I am based in Peru and I study the yeah EMFSS program at the University of London.
00:02:00
Speaker
I'm also involved in research for the Center for Online Distance Education and also for my home university. And I'm engaged in activities such as the student ambassadors and the student voice group.
00:02:15
Speaker
Natalia, thank you so much for joining us. And just for our listeners who may be unfamiliar, what is the EMF SS program? ah Yes, the Economics, Management, Finance and Social Sciences program.
00:02:29
Speaker
Thank you so much. And David, if I can come to you next. Hi, good morning, everybody, or good afternoon, wherever you are in the world. I am based in Abu Dhabi at Mohammed bin Zayed University of Artificial Intelligence in the United Arab Emirates. We are a graduate university with master's and PhD everything related to AI. I am involved in co-designing programs with our academics and also involved in the teaching and learning here at the Center of teaching and for Teaching and Learning at Mohammed bin Zayed.
00:03:01
Speaker
Thank you so much and welcome. ah Lydia, if I can come to you next. Hi Stuart. Hi everyone. Thanks for having me on the podcast today. um So my name is Lydia Ronald. I'm Associate Pro Vice-Chancellor at Harper Adams University in Shropshire in the UK. So we're a distinctive and specialist university.
00:03:21
Speaker
I'm an educational developer by background, so interested in a broad spectrum of um educational themes, so assessment, scholarship, action research, curriculum, technology, online learning.
00:03:32
Speaker
So very, very broad. ah Interested in flexible learning, which cuts across all of those themes. um But also through my own education, I've been a beneficiary of flexible learning at all sorts of different stages, so interested ah through that lens too.
00:03:48
Speaker
Perfect. Thank you, Lydia, and welcome. And last, but by no means least, asked Stella, if I can come to you, please. Thank you, Stuart. Hi, everybody. um And first of all, to echo Lydia's thoughts, thank you for the invitation.
00:04:01
Speaker
um My name is Stella Jones-Devitt. I'm based in sunny Yorkshire in the UK. um Presently, I'm an independent HE practitioner and I'm a visiting professor at Leeds Beckett University.
00:04:13
Speaker
um Prior to that, in my day job, I was a critical ah professor of critical pedagogy and also my background is evaluation research and I'm passionate about flexible learning.
00:04:26
Speaker
um I was involved with Advance HE that then I think was higher education um authority in 2017. I think it was developing the flexible learning practice guide and there's been a lot more work gone on by colleagues in the sector.
00:04:45
Speaker
I'm really interested in this area. And um as Lydia mentioned, my background actually was one where of probable disadvantage and actually the flexibility of learning has helped me to kind of navigate that. So I'm particularly interested in opportunities for learners.
00:05:03
Speaker
And yeah, really, really, really pleased to see how this goes.
Lighthearted Interlude: Biscuit Dunking
00:05:09
Speaker
Thank you, Stella. And welcome to to all of our guests. um As ever, the first thing we do by way of easing us into the episode is to start with something a little bit more lighthearted.
00:05:20
Speaker
That of Edgy Biscuit. ah Listeners new to the series, you are in for a treat as our guests divulge whether they are a dunker and they provide their favorite biscuit for doing so. We are continuing to track this ah these trends.
00:05:33
Speaker
ah We have our biscuit chart. Do look out for these. where These will be getting published very, very soon. And it is a very, very serious matter. ah For colleagues who who have been with us since the start, you will know that my my research continues and to every episode.
00:05:48
Speaker
And this time, something a little bit more sombre, I have discovered that actually dunking biscuits is actually a dangerous ah a dangerous activity. ah Some research from 2009, and I think that's potentially now ah slightly dated, so perhaps calls for an integrative literature review. But research from 2009 suggests an astonishing 25 million Brits donishin twenty five million brits have been injured ah while indulging in eating a biscuit.
00:06:17
Speaker
500 of those poor victims actually had to have hospital treatment. So this research was carried out by MindLab International with Fox's Biscuits.
00:06:27
Speaker
And they've determined in the top place that dunking biscuits is actually the most dangerous, with nearly a third of um biscuit eaters scolding themselves by dunking. ah Just over a quarter, 26%, had choked on crumbs.
00:06:40
Speaker
And 10% had broken a tooth or a filling while getting and getting down with their biscuits. So it is it is really quite a serious adventure. um They have also carried out the biscuit injury injury threat evaluation, BITE, which I happen to think was a fabulous use of the initialism there.
00:07:02
Speaker
um And that has come out and suggested that the most dangerous biscuit is actually the custard cream.
00:07:11
Speaker
5.63 is their bite ranking. um And once again, we're going to stir controversy because apparently the safest biscuit at the bottom with a bite time index of 1.16 is actually the Jaffa Cake.
00:07:23
Speaker
But as we all know, the Jaffa Cake is just not a biscuit.
Defining Flexible Learning
00:07:27
Speaker
Thank you. got Please, David, come in there. No, no, no. I agree with you. it's not biscuit. It's absolutely not a biscuit.
00:07:34
Speaker
um So there we have it. For for listeners who are interested, ah Do follow Advanced HE and your your hosts on socials and we shall share that exciting research.
00:07:45
Speaker
But without any further ado, Stella, I'm going to come to you first. And are you a dunker? Never, ever a dunker. In fact, I know this is a podcast book, folks.
00:07:56
Speaker
crisp, crisp snap of a biscuit. Absolutely. And um as far as custard creams go, good. They're horrible things and they should be banned. um So basically my biscuit is the Leibniz Keck, which is also known as a Choco Leibniz.
00:08:13
Speaker
And these biscuits were from 1891. So slightly precede me, luckily. um And they were named after the philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz. um And the, the,
00:08:26
Speaker
The connection with Gottfried is that they are made in Hanover and they've been made there since 1891. It has to be dark chocolate. They've got less sugar but more butter, which is unfortunate.
00:08:38
Speaker
And I'm just going to put a plug in for the well-being of these biscuits because dark chocolate, of course, is central to good thinking, good critical thinking. um I love them. I never dunk them. That that idea revolts me.
00:08:53
Speaker
So please, listeners, stop dunking your biscuits. The evidence there. Thank you, Stuart. I'm loving how well researched that biscuit is, Stella, and thank you for sharing that. Lydia, if I can come to you next.
00:09:07
Speaker
So I'm not usually a dunker. I save dunking for when I'm not feeling very well. So it's it's a special occasion thing, really. But um but generally, no, I'm not a dunker. My biscuit of choice um really fits nicely with with a connection into Stella there as she's based up in Yorkshire. I've got my ah rich tea here today. My solid choice ah might be seen as unexciting, but I'm going to defend that. um I think it's it's a perfect biscuit, right amount of crunch, right amount of calories, doesn't spoil your dinner, which is good.
00:09:40
Speaker
And you can also enhance it. We we like a bit of enhancement, um perhaps with a bit of lemon curd on it. So that's good. um But yeah, it's ah it's a solid choice. And as per my drive into the office this morning, I was quite impressed by its robustness, actually.
00:09:55
Speaker
I thought at the bottom of my lunch bag, it might get a bit crumbly, but it's arrived in my office intact. So in support of the rich tea. Fantastic. Thank you, Lydia. i had David?
00:10:09
Speaker
ah Yeah, so i'm a bit I'm a bit of a dunker from time to time, but not to not always. Today's Spanish lesson for Natalia, colleague. I have a Spanish cero sin azรบcar. You can see or hear it.
00:10:23
Speaker
And it's an oat cookie. Very nice. And you know it's ah it's very nice with oats and ah chocolate. And the The problem is, my my biggest problem is made with sunflower oil. And this is um it's a no-no, but never mind.
00:10:38
Speaker
It's high in fiber. And I brought it to my yeah to my office. And i have ah I have a couple of ah two Cookie Monster colleagues that actually finished them. So i are only one left.
00:10:50
Speaker
So lucky enough, today I can i can add have one. Here, it's right here. You see? up Oats and chocolate. Very nice. Oh, super soft. Fantastic.
00:11:02
Speaker
Thank you, David. And Natalia, are you a dunker? Yes, yes, from time to time. um But not it depends also on the biscuit.
00:11:13
Speaker
um But I would just like to say that I'm a bit ah impressed with this biscuit dynamic because I didn't know that you guys take it very seriously. I'm having a lot of new knowledge as well with the research about how dangerous it is.
00:11:32
Speaker
So this is very new for me. um So I wanted to bring ah for this conversation my favorite biscuit that is something that we eat a lot in Latin America. It's called alfajor.
00:11:48
Speaker
I don't know if you guys have heard about it, but it's um made out of two soft cookies filled with dulce de leche. And it's like a caramel-like spread. And it's often covered in powdered sugar or chocolate.
00:12:01
Speaker
And it's sweet, crumbly, and it pairs perfectly with coffee or tea. Sounds very healthy. i yeah sound Sounds fabulous. i'm know yeah My own research is expanding. Colleagues know that I'm ah i'm on the hunt for Tim Tams, going to be another one on the list there for me to go searching for.
00:12:18
Speaker
um Last but no means least, I'm going to come to you, Kay. Kay and I work together, and I've chastised Kay for ah her lack of dunking since ah the the last episode she joined me on. So, Kay, where are you with the dunking biscuits since then? still still Still no dunking and I've got a better reason for not dunking it now. So I think in the last episode, my fave biscuit was the Figaro, which was... ah ah But I've got a second favourite biscuit, which I've just started eating. And they're I think they're only done by one supermarket here in the UK. But basically, they're like a giant cornflake covered in dark chocolate.
00:12:52
Speaker
And they're absolutely delicious. They can't be dunked for two reasons. One, they're too wide to put in the cup. And two, they're covered in dark chocolate. But I think I have to confess that the reason I like these the most is because my husband can't stand them.
00:13:06
Speaker
So unlike ah poor David there, when I go to the cupboard, I know that the packet is still going to be intact and I will be able to have a treat when I need it.
00:13:17
Speaker
Thank you so much, Kay. um Well, without any further ado, it's probably time that we should start talking about student success. So the yeah the subject matter under and under scrutiny for this episode is a flexible learning.
Barriers and Opportunities in Flexible Learning
00:13:31
Speaker
But what do we actually mean by the phrase flexible learning? There are many different terms out there, and I think it does have one of those meanings that that can mean different things to different people. um So we'd like to start by covering some definitions.
00:13:45
Speaker
ah So who would like to go first? Who would like to give me their definition of flexible learning? and Yeah. um when When we think about flexible learning, I mean, I'm going to say I think we get tangled up unnecessarily with definitions underpinned by delivery and not by principles.
00:14:04
Speaker
So for me, the view of that hybrid, high flex, and ah new concepts isn't particularly of interest um to me personally. like What really matters are the principles and processes at play.
00:14:18
Speaker
um And I prefer to cite what we uncovered in examining the evidence. So it wasn't just us that put this together in the practice guide in 2017. And I'm just going to throw out this definition.
00:14:30
Speaker
and that flexible learning concerns institutions constructing and continually evaluating infrastructure, policies and practices that offer the widest possible opportunities for successful student engagement and the belonging of all stakeholders in higher education.
00:14:47
Speaker
And for me, that makes learning per se come to life in a dynamic and constantly evolving way. So it's a lived experience, not a delivery mode. So i'm just going to throw that into the debate. Thank you. Yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? um A lived experience. um And think that's a really fundamental point about it. um Natalia, I'm going to come to you next, given given that you are studying flexibly at the moment. How how does that definition sit with you or or how would you interpret flexible learning?
00:15:16
Speaker
Yeah, so for me, flexible learning is about giving students the autonomy to manage their own learning journey, whether that means choosing when, where or how they engage.
00:15:27
Speaker
with their studies. So I believe that these approaches acknowledge that students have different circumstances and education should adapt to them, not the other way around. um So I'm really grateful for ah let flexible learning because it has enabled me to to be here today.
00:15:46
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much. ah David. Yeah, for me, I agree with um with Natalia. you know the the students The current students have changed in many countries around the world.
00:15:58
Speaker
In our context, for example, or in Australia, in our context, we have graduate students. We don't have an attendance policy per se because they are graduate students, even though we have quite a bunch of courses they need to take.
00:16:12
Speaker
So we have to give them the flexibility to study from wherever they want so they can be at a coffee shop next door. and still attend the class and that's how we design our our classes our learning spaces basically ah we tested with different tablets with phones with different things for to give them the possibility to come to class and spend time um you know learning in with the with the the professor there or just you know join the class from whatever from different systems from zoom from or webex and and we have a lot of faculty also um
00:16:46
Speaker
traveling for conferences. ah So sometimes the professor is teaching from from somewhere else. So I'm also interested in the flexibility that Natalia mentioned, which is, ah you know, many people have to work. We know that purchasing power around the world is ah is a big thing at the moment. A lot of people are are ah financially tight and and they have to get a couple of jobs um to be able to pay for their studies. Some of them are here in the UAE, for example, are married with kids.
00:17:19
Speaker
even at undergraduate level, it's ah it's it's culturally like that. So they need to have the flexibility to be able to come to class or learn from anywhere, from their car, from from anywhere. So podcasts is also a good thing. And I'm also interested in the in the flexibility that... to flexibility to those who don't have access to anything, you know, in refugee contexts, in very remote areas, for for example, you know, in the bush in Australia,
00:17:48
Speaker
or or you know in in in refugee ah refugee camps that could be in Jordan or could be in you know in in ah and yeah in in Bangladesh or stuff like that. so i that that So that's interesting to me, providing the choice and the flexibility to study whenever you want, wherever you want, and and and have the same and the same quality, basically.
Historical Context and Pandemic Impact
00:18:12
Speaker
Yeah, thank you. there's ah There's a huge amount to unpack from there. And as we go through this, I'm sure some of our questions will start talking towards that, particularly like how you said you tested the technology using phones as well as tablets, as well as computers, because that's something that that's sometimes missing, isn't it, as well? So there's there's everything from the pragmatic right the way through to some of those more um compelling reasons and how it lines up with sustainable development goals around education for all. So it's a huge amount to unpack there. um And I can see this is going to be an excellent podcast.
00:18:44
Speaker
ah Lydia, if I can come to you just to round off the definitions section. Yeah, sure. Thank you. So definitely agree with others. The the common themes of choice and options really come through. i think sometimes we consider being flexible, but don't always really assess the needs of of the learners that we're working with. I think there is sometimes a sense that it it's flexible because it's an inconvenience and things like this. So I think it's very important that we think about actually
00:19:15
Speaker
the flexibility through the lens of learners and not necessarily um for for us as individual tutors or or lecturers or whatever our different roles are.
00:19:25
Speaker
So thinking about that and assessing ah whose whose needs we we are meeting is important. I think um also um but lived experience that Stella spoke of is really important. I think there's sometimes um a tendency for us to think about the educational experience, what's happening in the virtual classroom or the or the physical classroom without thinking about that holistic experience. So looking at the whole um journey that our learners will encounter is going to be really important rather than only focusing on that moment of interaction in the formal learning space.
00:20:00
Speaker
An example would be, i can i can access my class, but I can't get a student card to have have other benefits of being a student. So it's really thinking about that whole whole experience.
00:20:11
Speaker
and I think reflecting on what colleagues have said, we we' i would I would say that we're now living in a post-flexible learning world without being too pretentious about it because actually um everything has to be flexible. We have the technology um and I think we're now um you know understanding more about the pedagogy thanks to colleagues like like Stella doing that kind of really important research around what does What does this sort of learning look like? What does the teaching need to look like in those spaces?
00:20:40
Speaker
But I'd just like to throw out a little bit of a provocation for colleagues. um And please just just throw in your guesses. um when When do we think um the first time in the UK, don't know globally, but definitely in the UK, that you could complete a whole university degree, undergraduate degree without stepping foot on a university campus?
00:21:01
Speaker
Anybody like to have a guess at that? wow.
00:21:06
Speaker
I'll have a go, but I think I'll be way out. You know, on these pop shows, I always get the dates wrong of all records, so this will be rubbish. But basically, I would think it's probably earlier than we think.
00:21:19
Speaker
I would say in the 90s, 1990s, and I think I'll be completely wrong. I'm going to ask Lydia, because obviously it we're UK-centric, what she thinks of that. It's probably complete rubbish, that guess.
00:21:33
Speaker
um No, i was I was thinking not dissimilar because we got we've got sort of online degrees coming into play then, but I'm also thinking about more programmes undertaken by correspondents as well, so the the sort of pretext to some of that. So I would think earlier, um but only on the basis of correspondence rather than online.
00:21:55
Speaker
Okay. Yeah, that's a good point, isn't it? Yeah, correspondence. Whether we play a game of a higher or lower here, really, what do we reckon? Earlier. Yeah. I was going to go with the 80s, but then you threw it to the point. I didn't listen to the question, did I? it's online. So there was the interesting part it.
00:22:11
Speaker
What do think, colleagues? Higher or lower? Natalia, higher or lower? i thought it was going to be later. The first thing that popped into my head was like 2010, 2015, and even closer to the pandemic.
00:22:24
Speaker
But I haven't done research on that field, so I could also be completely off. I would tend to agree with Lidia and Stella. Around the 80s, 90s, yes, as you mentioned, in many countries you could do your degree with correspondence without stepping foot maybe once to do an exam somewhere or in some center, but you don't have to step foot at a university.
00:22:47
Speaker
And of course, with... and With everything being on now, the libraries putting everything, all there all their books and everything you know on on the on the library portal or whatever. you Definitely, you know when when when this started, you you did you don't you don't have to to go to to the to the library anymore.
00:23:07
Speaker
As a matter of fact, you know, many libraries are basically empty. I'm talking about even our library. You know, students access everything from ah remotely. You don't have to. And that's why they're called the learning commons. They become almost coffee shops.
00:23:23
Speaker
ah You know, the the librarian has to rethink, every librarian around the world has to rethink those spaces because they are pretty much empty and they're taking a lot of space. But yeah, 80s, 90s, probably, yeah.
00:23:36
Speaker
I'm going to go with the noughties then, Kay, just so we've cal covered four decades between us and in the hope that so nos one of us is right. Okay, folks, well, I'm afraid you're all thinking about flexible learning in terms of the digital. I think the founders of the Open University will be horrified ah because that is over 60 years old, I think now. Anyway, was it 1950s, early 1960s, that was ah inaugurated, which was, as as colleagues have mentioned, the kind of correspondence approach.
00:24:01
Speaker
But actually, we have to go back even further than that. um And I'm very proud of this because it was from my alma mater, but it was actually 1858. eighteen fifty eight that the first time you could take a degree from University College London um ah through complete correspondence and you didn't have to come to the university at all.
00:24:21
Speaker
And I'm really proud of that. Number one, I think it addresses some of the issues that we'll talk about today. It addressed the needs. you know We were about 100 years into the Industrial Revolution and there was a recognition that we needed to upskill the workforce to so that they could ah make use of the new technologies of the time, but also um that ah ah it provided access. So it allowed people that social mobility, and they recognizing that they still had to work, but they wanted to you know improve themselves, get a better standard of living.
00:24:55
Speaker
So yes, 1858. So and I think that just helps us kind of really reframe what we think about flexible learning and why we're doing it and why we're offering it.
00:25:06
Speaker
Okay, colleagues, and that's that was a great introduction. I suppose you know we do think um around flexible learning in this kind of post-COVID world, and I think Natalia picked that up as well, I think that forced everybody to think about um you know what you know how do we provide access when we can't come onto the campus.
00:25:26
Speaker
So, colleagues, I don't know who wants to jump in on this question in terms of ah Has staff and students' approaches changed since then? you know what What are you seeing in your context?
00:25:38
Speaker
I've got nothing but respect for for all staff and all students who worked through the pandemic. It was a really challenging time and I think we learned a great deal as a sector. um I think it's important...
00:25:49
Speaker
that we don't over generalize with this because everyone's experiences were so very different. If we think about somebody who perhaps ah in a UK context went through their school education and went directly into university, which I appreciate is not everybody, I'm just using that as an example, they would have experienced a great deal of their school education online and come into the system with a very um robust and um and and determined approach having worked through a very different type of education.
00:26:22
Speaker
And yet we've we've got primary school children now who also had a very different education. So I think it's really important that we don't overgeneralise. But that said, I think... we learned about what technology can do and it was really normalized.
00:26:37
Speaker
It became, if I think about work that I was doing back in, Stella mentioned the the sort of the early noughties, I think the sort of turn of the millennium as a period, there was a lot of really innovative work happening at that time.
00:26:48
Speaker
when some of the flexibility that we now enjoy did exist, but it was very niche and novel. And I think what the pandemic did was really sort of nudge us forward and normalise it and show that it was possible to a much broader spectrum of of people and businesses, actually, and organisations. I think where there had previously been resistance, there'd been a proof of concept that all this type but all these different types of learning were possible.
00:27:14
Speaker
um And learners have demonstrated through their own engagement and and proof of concept that they could learn in these different ways. And it was it was no longer a specialist or niche activity. It was it was an expectation, and a new normal, really.
00:27:27
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. I mean, since the pandemic, people realised very quickly that they had to rethink the way they were presenting their class, the way they were engaging with students.
00:27:40
Speaker
And this also gave students the flexibility that they now request. So it's very difficult now to to to make it mandatory for students to attend classes because that flexibility that they had for ah um a little bit more than a year in in many places around the world, you know um the the students realized that even though they they felt some of them isolated and they couldn't work with students and they couldn't see their classmates and they wanted to have this campus experience,
00:28:12
Speaker
um they you know they they they They realized that they could also learn from the comfort of their home and they could they could have more time to do other things. And they could have more time to spend time with family and they we have we had no other choice. We had to stay with the family and then we were confined. and and and And they realized that, you know, the commutes, the two hours commute sometimes to go to to school and come back, it's also an an issue.
00:28:38
Speaker
And he made also faculty realize that, okay, so I'm going to come to a classroom and I will expect to have all my students in the lecture theater. And guess what? You know, if you...
00:28:49
Speaker
If you were to to look at Twitter or X now and everything that that that was posted after after COVID, you would see a lot of teachers freaking out, saying like, oh my God, look at my lecture theater. There's nobody there.
00:29:04
Speaker
you know If you look at a a picture of Monash University in the 70s, 80s, 90s, it's full of people. you know we We would expect when we we used to study, everybody was almost there apart from you know those who didn't want to show up.
00:29:18
Speaker
But now nowadays you have classes where you have three people, yeah know two two two two students. and And then you still have to you still have to teach your class. And it's difficult because You have no clue about how to engage those who are online and they might feel feel isolated as well. And if you don't have the right classrooms, the right environment, the right cameras, they cannot hear anything that you're saying.
00:29:43
Speaker
And they might only show up for the ah for the for the the midterms or the exams. So how do you deal with that? How do do you how do you make them do teamwork, for example? So it's a lot of a lot of issues that faculty have to deal with.
00:29:57
Speaker
But I don't think it's going to change, you know, even though some people still value and still want the the campus experience to be to be there and exchange with their professors.
Student Needs and Institutional Responses
00:30:08
Speaker
ah Many students just want to to study wherever they want, as I mentioned earlier, and and whenever they want, they can study they can study from the other side of the planet and still be engaged in the classroom.
00:30:22
Speaker
And again, it's maybe they are they are super, super engaged, they are working very hard and they they're doing their teamwork exercises with ah those who show up in class. ah Because we have to remember that it's not because you have 200 students um in your lecture theater that they they feel engaged.
00:30:38
Speaker
As a matter of fact, I was passing with my colleague yesterday in some into some classrooms and and a couple of students, they were shopping online with some clothes. So you never know what people are doing, even though they are inside your classroom. They they have their computers, they have their tablets and they are doing other stuff.
00:30:57
Speaker
Thank you, David. It's really interesting. As you were talking there, um you were saying about engaging students across the other side of the world. And Natalia, of course, you are quite literally the other side of the world and being engaged by your university. Was there something that you'd like to come in or add to there?
00:31:12
Speaker
Yes, of course. So I believe that before the pandemic, online learning was often seen as a second choice to traditional education. um But now students and faculty recognize its value, not just for convenience, but for accessibility, inclusivity and adaptability.
00:31:30
Speaker
However, the challenge now is to refine these flexible models to ensure they offer the same depth of learning, networking and engagement as in-person experiences.
00:31:41
Speaker
So i I wanted to add ah to Lydia's comment, ah her example. So I actually did my last year of high school online. um So it was the pandemic, the first year, and then my first year of university as well.
00:31:59
Speaker
um And that was a shock for me. It was very tough because in the last year of school, you have a lot of activities. And in the first year of universities, your time to meet new people and also a lot of activities.
00:32:13
Speaker
um It was different, but it it didn't mean that it was bad. it It was just a different experience. um However, my university actually has returned to in-person um classes almost 100 and that's because they believe they have more control in this way to avoid um cheating or dishonest actions and also because it increases participation at least that's how it works in this side of the world um but i'm also having this uh flexible learning experience through the university of london that i really um
00:32:56
Speaker
ah appreciate and i I see that they have different ways of controlling these with INSPERA and Proctor's so there are different ways I believe um just institutions should see what works for them and for their students and faculty.
00:33:16
Speaker
Sorry to rebound on what Natalia said, we also to have to remember that engaging people you know online during the pandemic, it was actually super, super, super hard. Remember that people had to, in many countries, including the UAE, people had to switch to online overnight, basically, without any training.
00:33:33
Speaker
So now you you are on Zoom and then engage people for two hours. So what people used to do, And we all know engaging people online or putting content online has nothing to do with facilitating learning they still face to face.
00:33:46
Speaker
So people, what they did is they did what they knew. You know, if if if I have a two hours lecture, I do two hours lecture online. And then you have two hours of people bored to tears and, you know, switching off, not you're not showing their face.
00:34:00
Speaker
Because in some countries you cannot show the face either. So it was it was very, very hard. And it was frustrating for many people. It was you know was difficult.
00:34:12
Speaker
for for I know a lot of colleagues that decided to to quit. This is too hard. to do that and the students, you know, in some in some situations, students who didn't have access to broadband or Wi-Fi or all this technology or computers at home, it was very, very hard. Imagine if you are in a background,
00:34:40
Speaker
in a remote area and then you need you have three three children in three different classes, three different levels, and they all need a tablet or a computer. It's an investment, number one. And if you don't, then you have to share.
00:34:53
Speaker
And if the class is at the same time, however and what do you do? So can you can imagine the experience during one and a half year, you know, learning like this. So many people said maybe that's not for me or some students did not do very, very well. Some faculty realized that maybe that was too hard.
00:35:12
Speaker
You know, besides, you know, yeah the role of the faculty ah has changed in the past few years as well. You have everything that appears. that people drop on your desks. Now you're part of the committee, now you're part of you need to do research and it has to be the top 10 journals on the planet and then you now you have to learn how to teach online and then Generative AI is coming on to you.
00:35:36
Speaker
it's It's very very difficult. so So kudos to you Natalia, you did you did very very well. You survived the things and many survived but A lot of people find it very, very hard and and they still do not know you know. We still do not train a lot of faculty to put all their content online.
00:35:55
Speaker
And if there is another pandemic and it will probably come, are we ready for that? Or we will switch again overnight to something and then it will be the exact same experience that people had.
00:36:05
Speaker
Have we learned from that?
00:36:09
Speaker
Yeah, some really valid points there, David. Lydia, did you want to come in at all?
00:36:15
Speaker
Yeah, just just two follow ups really to build on what David and Natalia have just just spoken about. I think ah think the point about the pandemic being that emergency response is really important. So while I was saying before that I think it was a trigger, there was also work to do and remains work to do to optimise this sort of situation. it was a It was a moment um in time where where we learnt a lot.
00:36:39
Speaker
But there are a group of colleagues, some on the call here today, who've done enormous work in this space. And we need to learn about the pedagogies and optimising and not mistake some of what was done in the space of emergency response as being the the optimal way forward with with teaching and learning.
00:36:57
Speaker
ah The other thing just just to highlight is, um Natalia, I think, mentioned being in person for an event and and and brick being brought back for certain classes.
00:37:08
Speaker
And I think as we talk about flexible learning, I think it's really important that certain learning moments actually do involve people in a room. And and we think about when we when we did our definitions at the beginning, we think about choice and and um and and flexibility.
00:37:26
Speaker
um i think sometimes that can be choice between courses, choices between institutions. I think there's a risk that trying to be flexible in all that we do um can actually um almost take away what an event together can be. So I'm not arguing here against flexible learning at all. That would be that would be crazy.
00:37:49
Speaker
But it's thinking about where the choices and where the flexibility exists. Is it always in one course and one space? Or do we need to look between institutions and the available offers that students can choose and work with in a way
Building Community in Remote Learning
00:38:03
Speaker
that suits them. But but actually recognising the power sometimes of an event, whether it's all online or all in a room together, and not always thinking that everything needs to be ah available in all formats.
00:38:20
Speaker
Stuart, can I come in? Because there's some great points there raised, if that's OK.
00:38:27
Speaker
I think that the the pandemic as well, as we've heard from some great responses here, brought us together as a siege mentality. And I think we all worked manically to almost produce some anchor points. And I think that's in a really important term.
00:38:44
Speaker
We still needed some anchor points. um I think universities are now going back towards feeling that in person is essential and for for some universities and for some learners that's an anchor point.
00:38:56
Speaker
But I think we've now got um a level of a better level of sophistication. And I think it was gleaned from the emerging evidence around the pandemic. and Lydia, you you alluded to it, there's been some great work around modes of learning and how to create community ethos and belonging regardless of where that learning occurs.
00:39:14
Speaker
And I think the pandemic, as David said, also brought inequalities of opportunity into sharp focus. whether it involves students having poor technology and learning environment, social isolation factors and mental health aspects came into play.
00:39:27
Speaker
It did for staff as well. And there was a pedagogical paucity. So I felt that staff and i I count myself amongst those staff didn't really understand necessarily at the outset how to construct a good online experience due to the sometimes lack of tech skills or pedagogic understanding.
00:39:44
Speaker
I think, though, we've got to think there was some brilliant stuff shared, and that was by necessity, not necessarily competitively. And I think that marked the departure for the sector. It led to a much better repertoire of choice being available across the sector as our facilitation skills increased.
00:40:00
Speaker
I think learner expectations have also evolved and the enabling tech has improved. And I think it absolutely led to a recognition that there's essential infrastructure components. You'll hear me going on about this for increased flexibility.
00:40:13
Speaker
And if nothing else, I think it's taught HE providers to realise that embracing flexibility in its fullest um sense is not a cheap option, but it actually can be really sustainable. And I think what we've heard from other colleagues today suggests that I think we're more well-placed now for sustainability, perhaps.
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Stella. And it it's a really, I think you make a really valid point there, actually, that it's it's not a cheap option. um And we know that the HE sector as a whole is facing real financial challenges.
00:40:48
Speaker
um And, you know, maybe maybe this is one of those moments of how we need to do things differently. um So I was going to come to you really and ask, ah you know, what are the trends and themes that you're seeing? And, and you know, very very mindful that you've been in this space for for a number of years and and also your your research across the inclusive learning and teaching spaces as well but what what what what are the trends and themes and and how's this impacting?
00:41:18
Speaker
Yeah I mean I think there's a very basic one which concerns working patterns and I think for both staff and and learners um and again it's about the flexibility afforded by having good infrastructure for those ambitions so we've heard this morning that people you know David made the point but very well around you know students now um should expect that they can pick up a piece of tech and learn ah from any informal space or a formal space at any time. And I think that we we understand that to do that, we've still got to build those communities. So that's a ah challenge, but I think we're we're starting to evolve.
00:41:55
Speaker
I think almost paradoxically, um and I draw colleagues' attention to people like Diane Ray's work in this space around the advent of increased choice and For some students actually it becomes a bit terrifying, but I also think the with the advent of increased choice comes the need to be planning even more meticulously to make it work.
00:42:17
Speaker
ah For example, ah most of my evaluation research remark work is remote, but we've all agreed that we would meet in person on specific days to facilitate those critical conversations in which you're more likely to yield unintended and intended and on unplanned outcomes by being in person.
00:42:34
Speaker
And I think you you almost can't escape that there is a tension here that there's something about the observable and the visual and um and the nuanced that actually means that some unintended outcomes, both positive, negative, can be realised.
00:42:50
Speaker
I think there is a slightly worrying trend concerning higher education employers now insisting that in-person is always better. And I think that implies a lack of trust returning post-pandemic.
00:43:02
Speaker
Natalia made a really good point around and things like proctoring. um I'm not for proctoring. I think we need to build other ways to trust. um ah Productivity doesn't always link to presenteeism either.
00:43:14
Speaker
So I think um that's something that I think is a worrying trend. And I think if universities can't be creative and in and innovative in those spaces, They almost lose their uniqueness in society.
00:43:26
Speaker
So ah for for me, one of the trends I think is around ah the reversion to um ah insisting that ah colleagues and students have to be learning in person.
00:43:38
Speaker
But I think the bigger theme there is about how we generate trust. Because we certainly had it when we needed to in siege mentality during the pandemic. And I wouldn't like to see that um go away.
00:43:52
Speaker
Well, and technology and yeah I agree. And technology always is distrust. If you look at the history of technology now, you know, when the first thing that people thought about went ah when we all switched to emergency remote teaching and learning was proctoring, was how do we, ah you know, assess students and make sure that they are the ones answering the things that you can't see them, they are at home.
00:44:18
Speaker
You know, regenerative is exactly same thing. Let's ban it. You know, like they started banning it in many universities before they they could just discuss it and and and and see how they could use it. It's always the negative first.
00:44:32
Speaker
I remember going to Hong Kong three years ago and Hong Kong you had banned it. City University of Hong Kong had banned it. And then a year later, it was allowed because faculty were using it and it was banned for students.
00:44:45
Speaker
And then then I questioned them. So you yeah are using it, but the students cannot use it. Is this is this fair? And then they said, no, no, we give them 20 tokens so they can use it 20 times a month. And I said, what about 350 times a month? What about five times a month? What about whatever? It's just random.
00:45:03
Speaker
And then it was all the plagiarism issues. Everything, you know, you check on LinkedIn is about plagiarism, about distrust, about not copying, about it's generated by AI. So we we don't know how to assess.
00:45:15
Speaker
I use a lot of this and then the students are used. So it's always the distrust instead of looking at the positive angles of, the flexibility that I can learn online, the flexibility that I can use Generative app to be somehow more creative or or more efficient in my work to augment my teaching or my learning.
00:45:34
Speaker
and know i can i can talk to to you know gemini my friend or my friend chat gpt or my friend you know while i have to write whatever at 3 a.m they are or or i could go to to bang on the door of somebody to off stella at 3 a.m and say ah do you have a cookie and a and a and a cup because i have a question about something related to god knows what So, you know, um it's always like that. It's the fear of change. It's the fear of of distrust.
00:46:04
Speaker
But I think and another another trend I think is that we need to do to have is what what we I think I did this morning, is to talk to different to the schools. I think the disconnect between primary, secondary, university, it's like three different worlds.
00:46:19
Speaker
ah and Nobody talks to each other, you know. So here we have a we have a summer school and a winter school for for secondary school students. So it's good to see them. And it was basically my first time ah for a long time that I was talking to 400 kids this morning. They were like jumping around and asking like all sorts of questions. It was fun.
00:46:41
Speaker
at ah at ah at a school here in Abu Dhabi. And it's good to see what they know about things, what they know about technology. And and so, you know, people need to talk about stuff.
00:46:54
Speaker
And finally, another trend is we don't, I don't think we talk, we involve a lot of the stakeholders. ah in higher education, in the in the in the decisions that are taken.
00:47:05
Speaker
okay So when we designed the classrooms here, or the learning spaces, as was as we
Implementation Challenges
00:47:11
Speaker
call as we call it, we involved everybody. We involved the students. So you know there's a big train of students as partners.
00:47:18
Speaker
We involved the professional staff, we involved the IT staff, we involved faculty. We involved ah people that were not even on campus. We involved the ah the supplier of the of the technology. We involved the the contractors. We involved, you know, people that had nothing to do with being in a classroom.
00:47:37
Speaker
And then we said, why don't you just test it? and see if it works for you. If and tomorrow you were to to to attend a class here from outside or from I don't know what with your your phone, with your if you are left handed or whatever.
00:47:51
Speaker
We also, create um you know, Taylor made lectern for that. oh So then people can plug three or four five devices if they wish. They can use their Android, that they can use their Apple computers, whatever.
00:48:04
Speaker
um so a classroom that these days is is a it can be anything you know it is no no no longer a place where there is a a professor or a teacher in front of you and students sitting down and saying amen it has to be a place where you it's active where it's ah it's a it's a constant this constant discussion and constant uh you know trying new things You know, every time we um we we go to, I do faculty development for for Hong Kong, for example, different universities.
00:48:38
Speaker
We use different tools we have for different disciplines and some some things work for you, some things that don't work for you and that's fine. Just try it and try it again and and and see how it goes. and and And we need to have that that that for students as well.
00:48:52
Speaker
They need to know that they they can try different things. They can fail using it. may be a waste of your time, but at least you have tried it I think there's some really, really interesting points there, David. and I think particularly that love that idea. You know, what do what do we actually mean by a classroom?
00:49:09
Speaker
And I think you've really explored there some of the challenges of staff. You know, they they were in this new milieu. But think it's really important now that we kind of flip that round and think about, well, well what do students want from flexible learning?
00:49:21
Speaker
And I know, ah you know, at Advance HE, we did a big piece of work around this and and spoke to different students. And of course, there is no single student and what they want. And we get this kind of diversity of of you. Some want the kind of the social learning, the social interaction and the engagement.
00:49:39
Speaker
Some want the kind of flexibility because they've got other responsibilities outside the classroom. So as we've got a real life student here with us, let's let's start with... with with with Natalia's views on on what does she personally want from flexible learning?
00:49:54
Speaker
Is it being delivered? But before we go to colleagues to to hear their views. and Well, yes, thank you. Well, I can only speak from experience and I believe that students or at least myself would value freedom and support in flexible learning.
00:50:15
Speaker
um I believe they want to be able to learn at their own pace and on their own schedule, but they also need guidance. And right now there is still a gap. While we have the flexibility, sometimes the support structures aren't as robust as they should be.
00:50:33
Speaker
um And then another point touching again on the sense of community. um I also believe that there is an increase in expectation for real time interactive engagement.
00:50:44
Speaker
So so we We not only want pre-recorded lectures, we want live discussions and structured collaborations and opportunity to connect with peers globally.
00:50:56
Speaker
So ah that's why I am very passionate about sense of community. I am also evaluating and doing some research um through the Center of Online Distance Education about this topic.
00:51:10
Speaker
um Because when I first joined the University of London and they asked us if we had any proposals for research projects, um i I was ah thinking and I was like, oh, a research project for the University of London.
00:51:26
Speaker
Oh, right. i'm i'm a I'm actually a student of the University of London. I forgot because whenever someone asks me, where do you study? i just ah say my my home university in Peru.
00:51:40
Speaker
But I forgot that I was part of the University of London as well because it's mainly online. So I ah don't have that interaction every day. I don't go to to a campus so I was like oh and why do I feel this way why do I feel like i am not a student here um so that's what I wanted to to see what are the factors that contribute to this sense of community um and and what can can we do to to make it
00:52:13
Speaker
ah even better. So and then I started engaging with the student ambassadors and the student voice group. And now um im I'm even here. So I really feel part, but it took some while to to adjust.
00:52:28
Speaker
I think that's such an important point, Natalia, and it's something that I think universities have really have been trying, you know, thinking about and trying to struggle, you know, and been struggling with. How do we get that sense of belonging of students and not just completely remote students like yourself and University of London, but, you know, that sense of belonging when people are maybe doing a third of their course or half of their course through online and not coming into um into the into the university campus.
00:52:53
Speaker
So, colleagues, I don't know if anybody else wants to address that kind of, you know, how how do we get that sense of belonging, you know, for for our students if they're not coming onto campus? How do they get that kind of, you know, feel like they matter to our institutions? I think, Kay, for me, it really comes back to intentional design rather than sort of just a response. It's actually how do we scaffold people Learn a journey really and think about these many considerations and build them into that experience.
00:53:24
Speaker
One thing I'm always struck by is is is sometimes the confusion between. independent learning where we're supporting students to become independent in these environments alongside community and isolation and I think there's a real risk with with with sort of flexible learning types that that we don't think about the community in the way that Natalia's just really described and instead we think about providing information and things to do but don't actually really build in those touch points where we're building people to become independent
00:53:59
Speaker
alongside each other and with each other and that with each other is so important. There are so many different tools and possibilities available. I think recognising different student needs, different learner needs, inevitably there'll be points where people want to opt into different tools and use different patterns of working.
00:54:18
Speaker
But again, it's making sure that the the designs that we have, the pathways that we have for learners to work through things actually don't separate people by the tools they use, that there are deliberate touch points with purpose as well. I think, again, sometimes it's is what is the purpose of bringing people together? Have we got clarity on that so that we've got a direction as a group so we can encourage and foster that community that's so, so important? Not leaving it to chance, I think, is what what it really comes down to. Yeah, if I could just jump in, some great points there as well. um
00:54:56
Speaker
Just to add, when Lydia, when you were talking then, I was just thinking that I did a research project, and um I don't mind saying it, where I actually terrified the life out of the students because what I did was I was going on about flexibility and the students, it was a big learning point for me.
00:55:13
Speaker
You need to work with the students' rationality about how flexible they need to be or want to be because the last thing I wanted to do, which unfortunately I ended up doing to some extent,
00:55:24
Speaker
was to make them feel they were some kind of test bed for some weird experiments. And that actually made students feel they were almost being used unknowingly. I was trying to act in best interest. The learning from for me from this was include students in all those touch points for decision making. And I think that avoids that then. But that they that they often do want structured rationality. It's not up to me to go, oh great, isn't it fabulous? We're going to be flexible.
00:55:51
Speaker
because that's ah not always what what students want or desire. And so, yes, some great points from colleagues, I think, that have been raised on that question. We also know that you know during the pandemic, the sense of belonging of for students to universities was either shattered, either never happened, particularly like Natalia, people started the university online.
00:56:17
Speaker
they know they they They never met any any any colleagues and no classmates. They never set foot on the campus. They didn't see what the campus has to offer. you know All these activities that we all mentioned that people are organizing, you know ah student affairs, organizers, all sorts of things. And then suddenly you could not contact anybody. yeah yeah know except on Zoom. So you had to you know if you had you need you had an issue and you need to go into social services or you need to to contact a certain department of a university and knew and they were not available because they had to deal with all sorts of things,
00:56:53
Speaker
then of course your sense of belonging to the university is very, very different from from a university where where where where where you spend time in the classroom. We have to think about a sense of belonging to to to to or to anything else than a university, by the way. If you think about, you know, if you work in a company, and then and do do you feel do you feel any sense of belonging? And why do you feel a sense of belong belonging to the company?
00:57:21
Speaker
Is it because you have you have a lot of activities organized barbecues by your boss or or is it because ah they give you a cup of coffee every single day and then people and people dance during weekends together i'm not sure um you know sometimes the sense of belonging is because the university uh environment allows you to to express your ideas uh freely uh because ah you you you know your your classmates they come from uh multiple backgrounds and from all around the world and uh
00:57:52
Speaker
And that you can you can work with them because maybe the the the campus is is a central, is located in a central location where you can you can you know interact with with shops.
00:58:05
Speaker
you know You have a lot of universities like the University of Toronto, ah Canadian University Dubai, which is in the city center, you know ah where you can just come out and see the University of Hong Kong has a shopping mall next to it.
Flexible Learning and Student Well-being
00:58:18
Speaker
where people can just interact and whatever, and they feel they feel that they belong there. They feel that, you know, in the University of Hong Kong, if you go at 6 p.m., you will see thousands of people coming back to the university, alumni, taking other courses, you know, after after after the the school day, taking other courses because they feel that they belong to that university. And it's not because you have more or less activities than somewhere else.
00:58:42
Speaker
It's because they feel that, you know, they can they can interact with their professors at different times of the day. They feel that they can interact with classmates from business backgrounds. They can create a network.
00:58:54
Speaker
you know they They feel good going to school. You don't want to drag your your feet and say, I have to go to the office today and and stuff. So if we don't want to do that, students, they don't want to do the same thing. They don't want to drag their feet to go to a class that they're going to be bored or they think that ah they can they can learn everything from the PowerPoint that is there has been posted on the LMS.
00:59:13
Speaker
So you know a sense of belonging can be a lot a lot of things. Of course, you need those touch points and and we need to ah we need to analyze that. to see you like you know if they actually interact with for the different services of the university.
00:59:26
Speaker
But it's it's it's wider. it's It's an atmosphere. It's an ambiance of of a place where you feel like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's great to be here. that's spend I'm going to spend eight hours here studying or working, and it's going to be great. And when I go home, you know I'm looking forward to tomorrow. Even though it's work, I'm looking forward to going back to to the place where I feel free to express my things, create, and and interact with people.
00:59:52
Speaker
Thank you, David. um Colleagues, I'm going to have to move us on shortly, but just just as you've been speaking, what's really dawning on me and it's come across throughout this whole series, just just those nodes of intersect. You know, we're we're here talking around flexible learning, um but actually mattering, belonging, inclusive approaches. We've touched on assessment. All of these areas are so important.
01:00:14
Speaker
Um, and we know that in higher education, fostering that sense of belonging is absolutely crucial for academic success. Um, there, there was a ah study by Thomas et al. in the UK, um, that, that noted that students that had that sense of belonging persisted in their studies. So that linked to retention as well.
01:00:29
Speaker
Um, and, uh, I think it was, uh, Nash et al. um, around 2020 who, who linked, uh, belonging to mental health and well-being and and another area that's so at the forefront of higher education.
01:00:43
Speaker
And for me, for student success, how these areas all interlink and how that comes across. Lydia, if I can come to you, um what I'd like to to to know, and and colleagues, please do do have an answer ready. We we we can go around the go around the virtual room. but if there's one thing about flexible learning um and how it's approached in higher education, just one thing, one thing you could change, what would it be?
01:01:06
Speaker
I think it would be really making sure that it's a living pedagogy and it's not something that's a bolt on, that we're being very, very conscious and deliberate about it, whether it's our choices of technology.
01:01:17
Speaker
Technology is changing all the time, so we've got new options all the time. But are we really thinking about the evidence and the student experiences that are in front of us to make the choices? Are we thinking about how our experience presents?
01:01:30
Speaker
connects into all the other services in universities, um different administrative functions and so on to make sure that experiences is is really um a positive and a smooth experience for students and also thinking absolutely at the heart about the lived experiences of students and and the inclusion and different ways that students experience that x that um educational moment that comes from the ah the flexible learning situation.
01:02:00
Speaker
I think there's a real risk that we just add something on or try to um try to adjust something, whereas actually some of the work around creating evidence to really think about what should we be doing, how can we take this forward so we can be more discerning in what we're doing in this space, I think for me is the big is the big item here. So it's about making flexible ah learning a living pedagogy, something that we're we're deeply and properly invested in.
01:02:27
Speaker
Thank you. Stella, I can see you're dancing for Do you everyone want to come in there?
01:02:32
Speaker
Yes, I love that one. And then it's a hard act to follow. But linked to that, I think, is if we're really serious about progressive flexible learning, we have to completely re-evaluate the prevailing infrastructure and processes. I've heard too many times, oh, this is too difficult to do.
01:02:48
Speaker
But within that, students have to have a decision-making voice. It can't just be things that we guess at. I also think there's accompanying regulatory structures that really need to be challenged.
01:03:01
Speaker
And I'm just going to suggest that we have to imagine the journey of any learner from any background and ah know that they have a supportive infrastructure which offers the potential to succeed. And I've got a little example here.
01:03:13
Speaker
I've often equated the best forms of flexible learning to be like the difference in performance of a supercar, which of course will have to be electric, against a lawnmower. The car has agility, it has adaptability and responsiveness, but the lawnmower can only go at one speed and can't navigate change.
01:03:31
Speaker
And I think vice chancellors have to have to invest in the electric supercar, basically. And I think that builds on what Lydia was talking about um around and pedagogy. It can't be bolted on.
01:03:43
Speaker
It can't. It has to do all things for all people. And without heterogeneity of thought, we can't ever get to that. because It'd just be people group thinking and providing the same bad solutions.
01:03:56
Speaker
Yeah, thank you, Stella. It's an interesting interesting analogy there as well around that focus on adaptability. ah Natalia, what what would be the one thing you would like to see change? I would have to agree with Lydia and Stella and also touch on what David was saying before. So I think I would change this resistance of change.
01:04:16
Speaker
um So, for example, in my university, um they where some some professors, not everyone, because they all have their um freedom of of ah designing their course their way.
01:04:31
Speaker
um They got scared of artificial intelligence and now they they do the exams, they they give the exams on a paper and a pen. You don't have a computer, anything.
01:04:43
Speaker
Or in other ah classrooms, they... um block the internet connection from the computers or block chat GPT or or these ah tools. um so So they are forbidding these things instead of embracing them and okay, um maybe change how how the um evaluation is taken so but maybe the the students can use these tools to resonate differently and and help them get to an answer.
01:05:16
Speaker
So I think just embracing the new advances in technology and incorporating them rather than than resisting change would be the thing for me that I would change. Yeah, thank you Natalia. um And David, david i could i could I could see you visibly shaking there when you're suggesting that chat gpt is banned i mean get given uh you know the university of artificial intelligence um pleat please what would you like to see change coming in there Well, i again, Natalia said that things are banned. I arrived this morning at that school and then I had a USB because I didn't bring my computer. I thought that they would be they would have a computer and they said, we are banning the use of USBs in the school. And I realized that many schools banned the use of
01:06:06
Speaker
USB, even a USB. Can you imagine? So they had to find a computer, a personal computer of somebody to be able to, for me to to upload my my yeah my presentation. So, you know, ah for me, ah flexibility goes also with accessibility. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of people are falling behind.
01:06:26
Speaker
We already talked about that, about the digital gaps that the massive open online courses, the MOOCs, you know, we're generating. dissols so And we continue with this.
01:06:39
Speaker
I was pleased today to to hear that. There would be investments in Africa to have ah some large language models created from Africa by Africans. um We are here at this university. We're creating large large language models in different languages, in Hindi, in Bangladeshi, in Kazakh, and all other languages, so which is good.
01:07:01
Speaker
But a lot of people and a lot of languages ah and a lot of content from these countries is not being created at the moment. So that's an issue for me that it all all comes from ah from a certain from a certain direction and now from the from the west and and now from the east.
01:07:21
Speaker
Other parts of the globe have the right to have that and they have the right to to have access to have access to this. um So let's not talk about, as I've mentioned, the refugee context or the or the remote context, but people in the middle of Manchester, you know, and in ah or anywhere in you know in in in Delhi or in ah in in in some in some housing estates in Hong Kong or in Singapore, where you
Future Trends and Reflections
01:07:46
Speaker
have you have financial difficulties, you you have no access to these to Wi-Fi or broadband, you have you will have no access.
01:07:55
Speaker
at with generative AI and and and all this stuff. And it's also part of the flexibility. and And remember from from from our experience with COVID that a lot of people did not have proper access even from big cities to to ah to to along to internet.
01:08:17
Speaker
If you go to Australia, for example, I spent a few years in Australia. There are a lot of areas in big cities, Perth or Adelaide or or Brisbane, where the internet is crap.
01:08:30
Speaker
and And they are supposed to be developed countries. okay So if you're a kid there and and everything is online, yeah, the flexibility is offered. And Australian universities and schools offer lot of flexibility, but I cannot access to it.
01:08:45
Speaker
So what do I do with this? So I think this is important. We need to develop that that accessibility. We need to provide the solutions. It could be ah you know solutions to countries that but don't have the the possibilities of the or the or the finance to to pay for those to high broadband or cable or whatever.
01:09:07
Speaker
it could be ah It could be, you know, lower lowing ah low low priced innovations, or but but but that's ah that's an issue to me.
01:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, no, thank you. That accessibility is really important. And also mindful ah of ah you know, even down to the technological basics around operating systems and are the platforms compatible and Hence the earlier comment I'd made around mobile phones, you know, a number of people accessing content via mobile phones and is it suitable and can they do that as well?
01:09:39
Speaker
Kay, can I pass over to you? Yeah, I just want to come in really, i think colleagues made some really important comments around, you know, what we've done and where we're going. And I think we have moved on an awful long way since the post pandemic. I remember but trying to sort out with one of my own kids, looking at their timetable, um and not being able to work out whether ah a session was in person or online, you know, and I think that really speaks to to Stella's point around processes and systems all need to kind of join up.
01:10:07
Speaker
And I think we have moved on from there. But what I'd like to see, I suppose, is a much more kind of design and pedagogic informed learning. So when we look at our curriculum, can we design, you know, whether it's down to a level, this is the bit that actually students would be benefit, <unk> you know, simulating knowledge and content at their own pace in the format that they want.
01:10:32
Speaker
And then actually when when we're bringing them onto campus, we're using that time for the the social learning, you know the discussions, the collaborations, the problem solving, that really benefits those social interactions.
01:10:45
Speaker
It was a real value. And I always say, you know you've got to make it you've got to make your your session on campus worth the price of a bus ride. you know and and the cup of coffee that that students need to buy when they get there.
01:10:56
Speaker
And if we start to go to that mindset, you know and we get to that kind of, as I said at the beginning, that kind of post-flexible world. So I've kind of concluded with my top tip going forward, and I think I'd just like to go around the room um and explore ah what others top tips are for colleagues. you know what what What would you suggest to colleagues?
01:11:18
Speaker
Who wants to go first? I'll go, it's it's ah it's a if that's okay with colleagues. it's a very It's a very straightforward one, really. um And it might not surprise you, Kate, to hear that the best form of ah flexible learning for me, the top tip, is actually being inclusive.
01:11:36
Speaker
And that real inclusion can only occur when we hear, listen, ah and are informed by a heterogeneity of thought, decision-making, and action. So my top tip is if you can test that your provision meets the needs of any students, regardless of background circumstance or prior experience, you will be developing real flexibility.
01:11:56
Speaker
And that for me is absolutely ah critical. But students themselves need to be part of that decision making and governance process. Yeah, absolutely. Stella, brilliant.
01:12:07
Speaker
um Lydia. Yeah, I think I'm actually just looking right this second at the professional standards framework, actually. And I'm looking at V1 and V2, which are respect individual learners and diverse groups of students, learners and promote engagement in learning and equity of opportunity.
01:12:27
Speaker
And for me, those two values really are at the heart of all of this. so So my tip is to remember our why in a world that is sometimes increasingly for very many people very very challenging and difficult with barriers and um unpleasantness I think remembering the why is really important we can get very um pulled along by lots of different reasons for doing um flexibility, ah for for building in flexibility into to learning.
01:13:00
Speaker
But for me, just remembering the why is so important. Other people might have different whys, but just remembering, ah going back to the anchor point um earlier on that was discussed, what are the anchor points? Why are we doing this? Because we can then have our heads turned by many different factors, but really focusing in on on this respect for individuals and promotion of engagement for me is critical for all the decisions that cascade from that.
01:13:26
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely fantastic Lydia and and and of course you you've guaranteed guarantees yourself ah another invite by mentioning the professional standards framework. So have David, your thoughts, what are your top tips for colleagues?
01:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think we need to to remember the why, and but we need to explain the why to people. I think we still need to but to practice what we preach and explain a lot to a lot of people. and There's a lot of gibberish going around you on the internet, on different forums, people mix up terms.
01:14:01
Speaker
you know I was watching a program get a did on French TV and the guy was talking about AI. and he he He advises presidents and he know advises prime ministers, but he had no clue what he was talking about.
01:14:14
Speaker
And it was confusing even more everybody by by by talking ah about about what he was talking about. So we need to explain. do you know After the my talk today, I was talking to the to the teachers and the principal and and they said, we you know, it's one of of the first people that comes to us that explains us how to use those tools instead of just talking about it.
01:14:36
Speaker
and but you know You need you know tools for their assessment. ah you need to or You need the technology for that. It's never the technology. The technology is a tool. It cannot be you know technology driven, it has to be pedagogy driven.
01:14:50
Speaker
So it's the pedagogy that is very important. And the tools is to teach those things, to do the learning and teaching activities and maybe to assess So explaining to people how we use this and why we use it this is very important. How we use it is very important as well because there's a big demand about, you know, how how can we do a flexible stuff instead saying, yeah, yeah, it's easy to say you need flexible pathways, ah entry and exit pathways at universities for different programs. yeah Okay, how?
01:15:20
Speaker
You know, this is my context. My context is different. What do you propose to me? What is your solution? So this is how we approach, for example, the design of our classrooms or how do we approach projects?
01:15:31
Speaker
OK, we think about the why. This is very important. We think about the how. How are we going to do it based on the finance, based on the time, based on whatever factor? We think about the who, because, you know, a certain school is very different from a university.
01:15:47
Speaker
I know that when I had to prepare for today, yeah as I mentioned, it was the first time I do that for school. I usually do that with faculty members at universities. So it's very, very different audience. So you need to think about the audience.
01:15:58
Speaker
and But you need to demo it. You need to show it, okay not just talk about it. And I think this is important. Brilliant. Thanks, David. And I think colleagues are also commenting there about that collaboration, joint decision making and all of that is so important, which I think you're touching on the end when you think about the who who our audiences are.
01:16:20
Speaker
OK, let's let's go to you, Natalia, for the last word on this. what what's What's the top tip that you would offer either to fellow students engaging in flexible learning or to to institutions, whichever you prefer?
01:16:33
Speaker
Yeah, so first I would like to say that I'm very motivated now. These words, these top tips have really motivated me, remembering the why. Now, ah during the day, I'm going to be happily studying for my exams now. Okay.
01:16:48
Speaker
But yeah, my my top tip, again, would be, I believe, not to overlook the sense of community in online learning. um i think it's easy to become isolated, especially in fully remote programs.
01:17:02
Speaker
But finding ways to engage ah through university clubs or forums or virtual networking makes a huge difference. And the strong sense of community or belonging improves motivation and learning outcomes as well.
01:17:17
Speaker
So that would be my top tip for fellow students. Brilliant. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, colleagues. um So much to unpack there, so much to reflect upon. um And I think for me, one of the key things that's really come out of this, and it was it was ah something you'd mentioned right at the start, Lydia, around collaboration. When we were in that response mode, colleagues collaborated.
01:17:44
Speaker
And I think there needs to be more of that. We've had a lot around collaboration with colleagues and students. and But I think as a whole, the sector needs to think about how we do things differently, perhaps be a little bit more flexible, if if I may, um and how we can take forward some of that collaboration.
01:17:59
Speaker
um So, yeah, i think I think that's a call to action I'll put out to colleagues is how can you collaborate and and do use those channels, those social media platforms, et cetera, to think about this. um And we, of course, AdvanceHE,
01:18:13
Speaker
are happy to be conduits and see what we can do in that regard. It leads me to thank our guests, to you, Lydia, ah Natalia, Stella, David. Thank you for joining us today. It's been absolutely fabulous. Of course, to Kay, my co-host on this episode, all of your insights have been invaluable and have really enjoyed the session.
01:18:38
Speaker
Before we go, i wanted to remind our listeners that there are a wealth of resources, including a recent literature review in flexible learning conducted by Mark Loon at the time at the University of Northumbria. He is now at the University of the Sunshine sunshine Coast.
01:18:52
Speaker
We also have our inclusive teaching and learning review conducted by the very one and only Stella Jones-Devitts alongside Alan Donnelly of Sheffield Hallam University. um All of the details on the website and listeners can come and hear Stella again at a webinar on the 23rd July um discussing that research. But um as as our listeners will know, you know, you cannot separate out inclusive learning and teaching practices from flexible learning.
01:19:21
Speaker
We will be back next time with a podcast looking at the topic of professional recognition and staff development and the impact on student success. So I suspect the PSF will come up once again there. um much more can begin to be unpacked, which will, ah well, of course, it promises to be an equally exciting episode.
01:19:39
Speaker
Until then, I say to you, our listeners, stay curious, do tell your colleagues and friends, do share, hit that like button, hit that follow button. And we we look forward to having you join us once again.
01:19:51
Speaker
Thank you.