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267- Open Rescue: Is it worth it?
0 Playsin 4 days
There's a fine line between being badass & being reckless...so where does 'open rescue' fall? Are Wayne Hsiung, Zoe Rosenberg & the gang all brave animal rights warriors who are putting their liberty on the line...or are their actions misguided & depleting our resources as a movement? Dominic, Shane & Anthony discuss this thorny and very relevant topic.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Shane, Dominic & Ant
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello old everybody! Roll up,
Introduction to Vegan Talk Podcast
00:00:02
Speaker
roll up! Who fancies rescuing a chicken if it means going to prison? My name is Dominic and for this episode of Vegan Talk, I'm also joined by Anthony and Shane.
Perceptions of Vegans
00:00:14
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butt is used for! Brrr! Take your flat-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida.
00:00:26
Speaker
Should I call the medium and say, hi,
Awareness of Animal Practices
00:00:28
Speaker
sorry. True education. younger generation are getting to know how brutal these practices are. That leaves a lot of pizza delivery companies in problems with things.
00:00:38
Speaker
What is this? What kind of movie
Weekly Discussion on Vegan Issues
00:00:40
Speaker
is this? It's comedy gold, maybe. Any form of social injustice has... connection with another. As long as you donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright.
00:00:51
Speaker
Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:56
Speaker
cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hey everyone, Anthony here. Welcome to everyone listening to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you so much for being here. You're the people we do it for. So we're delighted that you're here. Hey
Introduction to Open Rescue
00:01:12
Speaker
everyone, this is Shane and you're listening to Vegan Talk as Anthony just said. Vegan Talk, if you don't know, is our weekly discussion of a vegan or animal rights issue.
00:01:21
Speaker
It can be something on the news, but it could also just be a topic we want to discuss. And previous episodes of Vegan Talk are available in your podcast feed. You can go back and listen to them anytime and they will still be relevant.
00:01:36
Speaker
Thank you, Shane. So today we're talking about open rescue, which is one of the first things people talk about when you start talking about animal welfare, Well, isn't it bad when people break the law? Isn't it bad when people do horrendous acts like damaging property? Is
Open Rescue Activism
00:01:54
Speaker
what I'm often told. So if you're not familiar with the term open rescue, open rescue involves rescuing animals who are in pain, who are in suffering, ah giving the animals treatment from vets, long-term care, ultimately ah making that known to the public, making it known that... You know, these animals have been taken from a situation where they were ah not free and giving them a great sense of freedom. And there are all kinds of arguments for and against. Shane, have I done a pretty good job of summarising Open Rescue? Would you say there's anything to add to the ah to the definition?
00:02:39
Speaker
No, I think you did a great job. um Just laying the groundwork for what it is. It's when animal activists rescue animals without concealing the activist identities. And usually they're videoing the rescue or they're live streaming it so that people who are watching can see the conditions that the animals are enduring.
Legal Perspectives on Open Rescue
00:02:59
Speaker
It's nonviolent toward humans and animals, but as you said, there can sometimes be property damage. And it's really just in contrast to the actions of activists in like the 70s and 80s, and I'm thinking of the Animal Liberation Front, who rescued animals, but they wore face coverings to conceal their identities.
00:03:17
Speaker
um But the people who participate in open rescue argue that they have no need to conceal their identities because because rescuing animals from abuse and neglect is not illegal. and So
Personal Stories of Rescue
00:03:28
Speaker
that's kind of kind of um how I see open rescue and what I've read about it. Thank you, Shane.
00:03:33
Speaker
When we talk about veganism, there are some things that are, without being vegan police here, that you you either are vegan or you're not vegan. you know in In other news, in other articles, we've talked about, well, you know if you're if you're out there you know eating dairy chocolate or frying some bacon, then you're you're not vegan by the definition But there are some other kind of areas that are are open to interpretations. And I've certainly felt like I'm a bad vegan, like I'm not fully vegan, because I've often felt huge guilt. but I think, well, do I do enough? Is there more I can do? um I've spoken on previous shows about we we did a whole show on like mental wellness and mental health and You know, I'm an adult who's who's kind of struggled with anxiety conditions through my life. And I feel great pride in doing a public speaking about veganism, about standing on stage and talking about it. But I have never done any work.
00:04:31
Speaker
kind of action like Open Rescue. I've dreamed of it. I've known people who've done it, but I've never done it. And I'll be honest, I felt really ah big guilt about not being a great but or any part of this. ah Anthony, have you ever had any experience with Open Rescue?
00:04:51
Speaker
Well, well, I have not gone into a, you know, a chicken farm and liberated chickens in the in the way that, you know, we often see Open Rescue done. ah Wayne Shung is, you know, he's he's never so happy as when he's wearing a a hazmat suit carrying an animal out of a laboratory or or something like that. So I've not done anything like that, but about, ooh, let's do some quick maths. I think it was 12 years ago, myself and my wife at the time, who was and still is a passionate animal rights activist, in the school that she was working in, a secondary school, she found out that there were two guinea pigs that were going to be left at the school over the half-term break. So that's nine days, two weekends, and the Monday to Friday, with enough food for them to survive but in a classroom with the lights off blah blah blah and we just decided we were gonna rescue them and we were just gonna take them home and they were gonna be our companion animals we didn't have any animals living with us at the time we didn't conceal that from from the school it was we more or less decided it on the spot on on the friday at the end of term and said right well we're
00:06:04
Speaker
just Just say you're going to take them home to to look after them this half term, but we we then just won't give them back. And and
Impact of Animal Rescue
00:06:12
Speaker
and then, yeah, at the end of that week of looking after them, she went back in school and said, yeah, we're not bringing them back.
00:06:19
Speaker
Like, that was cruel. You shouldn't have been keeping them like that. And they lived with us for four years and we got two more rescues from... an animal sanctuary. not I'm not putting myself in the same category as as people who've done this very publicly. We didn't document it or anything like that, but it was just a very straightforward note. Those two are having a crappy time of things.
00:06:42
Speaker
We're going to I'm not talking about my marriage. I'm talking about those two guinea pigs. um ah we we need to We need to liberate them. We need to give them a better life. And yeah, i'm I'm going to stick my neck out and say those two guinea pigs had a lovely, lovely life. And probably we wouldn't have adopted the other two from the sanctuary had we not adopted those first two. So ah yeah, they have a very special place in my heart and they're herbivores. So they're the best animals to have in your home anyway, aren't they? But yeah, I'd i'd i'd really...
00:07:12
Speaker
In many ways, i would I would love to be one of these big crews that, I mean, we've just had the context of Ridgeland Farm in in the last couple of days. Ridgeland Farms have had, was it 22 dogs, Shane?
00:07:26
Speaker
It ended up being 23 because they found one that was hiding under a seat. I found a dog that was hiding under a seat. And... um I don't know when this is going to air, but Wayne Shung is now calling for 2000 activists to come and rescue the rest of the dogs on April 12. So if you want to fly to Wisconsin and be part of that, this is your chance.
00:07:46
Speaker
in the in the In the part, you'll need, yeah, you'll need a time machine. I think this episode's coming out from mid April, but yeah. Well, everybody watch and see if Anthony was part of that rescue. Go back and watch.
00:07:58
Speaker
Anthony, out of interest, I mean, I understand the context with which you shared your school story. Did
Effectiveness and Perception of Open Rescue
00:08:03
Speaker
you get in trouble from the school? no No, not at all. Okay, you could have done because I mean, you know, they, one of the problems that we as vegans face is the absolute denial that being cruel to animals is cruel to animals. That's the argument we face all the you see this cruelty it's cruel and i wouldn't have been at all surprised if uh you you had have been like disciplined at at work and uh you know i'm very glad to hear that you weren't but yeah it's um yeah i think um so sometimes when you can have a clarity can't you
00:08:41
Speaker
ah sometimes with with with urgency and with really emotive matters. And i should I should just repeat to stress, it was my first wife's school. It was not the school that I was working at. um So it would have been her that that got in trouble. But yeah, it was it was just a black and white. It's like, well, we we can't just leave them.
00:08:59
Speaker
We can't just leave them there. And Yeah, it's a tough one. There's been things, I mean, this is a separate podcast topic, but there've been things that I have got into trouble with at working in schools and other places through taking actions through an animal rights lens, not liberating animals, but saying, no, all of all of the children in my boarding house have said that they want plant-based options on the menu, which wasn't a lie.
00:09:26
Speaker
ah But the the way i the way I got that result, let let's say, was a little manipulated. and it And, you know, I know exactly why I did it, and I'd probably do the same now, but that that led to me being told off and a few other things too. ah People who...
00:09:43
Speaker
are doing things like the Wisconsin activism.
Public Perception of Rescuers
00:09:47
Speaker
ah Shane, you know, the the the concept of open rescue, um like i say, it's one of the first things that I get thrown at me by non-vegans. Like, oh, well, you're not one of those lawbreakers are you you don't do bad things you don't think it's it's all right to cause harm to people or property in the name of animal welfare um so like i say my my own take is i've always felt you know being absolutely honest ah a little bit a little bit little bit you know
00:10:17
Speaker
inadequate sort of thinking I don't do something like that because because I've always seen it as ah as a good thing. I've disagreed with the people who've attacked the concept of open rescue. I've seen open rescue as a good thing. what's What's been your take in general, not any specific instance of open rescue, but in general, would you say that open rescue is something that you think it's good when you see vegans or animal rights activists who are involved in open rescue?
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, i I think it's one of the only ways to force a change in and the way that the public is going to see factory farming or animal testing. Because when you're watching one of those videos and you see the faces of rescuers and they look like your friend, they look like your neighbor, they just look like...
00:11:01
Speaker
anybody else, um then I think it's harder for the government or the facility where the animals are housed to convince the public, oh, these are terrorists. And
Necessity Defense in Court
00:11:11
Speaker
then also when the rescuers are taken to court and they know they will be, and a lot of times that's even the purpose of the open rescue, then they're if they're openly showing their faces, then it's a stronger argument too for the necessity defense, which is arguing It's necessary to free the animals because of their cruel treatment. Like we're not hiding our faces because we don't think we did anything wrong. I think that stands out to juries as well.
00:11:36
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you, Shane. ah How about you, Anthony? What's your take? So I think the bottom line for me is whatever gets us to a a more vegan world or a vegan world, so long as we're not treading on others on our way to that destination,
00:11:56
Speaker
I want that tactic to be the one that we adopt. We don't know. We've only ever really got short or medium term data on this because, you know, of course there were people hundreds of years ago working to improve outcomes for animals, but this specific animal rights campaign, this vegan movement in the way that it's happening now is is still quite a recent thing.
00:12:19
Speaker
So, If this is a successful strategy, then I'm interested in it and I think it's worthwhile. I have reservations of folk being arrested and we don't know how that's going to affect us later on in life. It's like getting a tattoo, isn't it? Or something like that.
Consequences for Activists
00:12:38
Speaker
You just don't know. You don't know. And that's not necessarily a reason not to do it.
00:12:43
Speaker
But I i think i I really wince when I... read about Zoe, is it Rosenberg? Zoe Rosenberg, who's you know at the age of whatever it is, 21, 22, 23. Yeah, a criminal record. She's done time. She's had this tag on. It's interrupted her studies. Of course, like her fervent belief and passion and determination are incredibly admirable things. And I'd rather have that than somebody who's ambivalent, passive, and blah, blah, blah. But i I have concerns about that,
00:13:15
Speaker
And I have concerns about us pedestalling that kind of action, especially if we're not the ones doing it. Oh, it's brilliant, all these people, what they're doing, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I'm not going to do it myself, but you know, oh, it's fantastic, Zoe getting this, you know, ah she's done time for the animals at the age of 20.
00:13:34
Speaker
o that's I'm i'm really s screaming about that. And the context changes. you know i mean? Like we're playing a game that the rules could change um as we go along. So I think we have to be really, really careful.
00:13:48
Speaker
And I can see how this is more effective and gets more coverage than many of our acts. as a movement. So there's a lot to be said for it. Go on, Shane.
00:13:59
Speaker
I was going to say... Yeah, we're both keen. Go on, yeah. was going to say, I think the other thing to think about too is when you have somebody like Zoe Rosenberg or Wayne Shung who are getting... um who who are in the spotlight and who are being imprisoned, you have to be careful.
Long-term Commitment vs. Impactful Actions
00:14:14
Speaker
The movement needs to be careful about who they put in these positions because you don't want to put maybe a black person or, you know, somebody who could really...
00:14:25
Speaker
yes like in the United States, there's a lot of police violence. So I think making choices also about who you're going to put in those positions is important. So that is something to think about. But then I guess Anthony's point is sometimes a person might choose to be put in that position because of, you know, it being on such a pedestal. I mean, uh,
00:14:44
Speaker
I'm going to give two analog two comparisons, which hopefully aren't inappropriate comparisons. You know, I'm one of many people in the UK who work as ah as a poet. i'm I'm really lucky. I go around performing poets. Comparison number one, I know one really political poet who ah had very strong anti-religious feelings and he got booked by for a big religious festival and saw it as an opportunity to do all of his anti-religion podcasts. poems and it can killed his career it killed his career and I mean the kindness he'd shown to vulnerable people young people and I thought was that worth it was that worth it for the potential kindness he could do that he was he was shut down
00:15:26
Speaker
So that's one comparison. A second comparison, um a wonderful poet got a really big commission to develop her work. And then she got um very ill, very ill after she'd received the commission. And she ah decided to change what she was going to write her poetry about and work.
00:15:45
Speaker
write all the poetry that she was going to go and talk about being ill about the sickness she had because she thought that was a worthy thing and I kind of tried to warn her against that as someone who was a little bit older and you know i was a bit clumsy in my uh in my advice she was like don't tell me what to do don't tell me what to do you know and I stand by where I think it was awful for her mental health. I think it was a really worthy thing to try and do. But in her particular case, I think that, again, it detracted from the long term goal of using a position. You poets, you can really help...
00:16:27
Speaker
People in awful situations find expression and health and whatnot. So I guess the analogy I'm making is the same with, them you know, ah veganism. that the we've We've all seen people stop being vegan. We've all seen people... ah have their access to social media cut off or just their health deteriorates so much that they no longer wish to engage in social media. And I do believe that I've been vegan for oh a long time now, like nearly 20 years, I think I've lost count. And in all that time, I've been saying poetry about veganism. And I've been a constant in non-vegan spaces with people coming up to me
00:17:15
Speaker
And saying, oh, I'm interested in your poetry and talking about the veganism aspect. It's starting conversations. And I do feel confident doing that. I know for me personally, if I personally was involved in open rescue i i i it would it would just be it would just be too much for me it it really really would and could that then stop me from wanting to do the things that i am doing which i know are making a difference i mean like it's hard to quantify isn't it what's making the most difference but i would argue that long-term commitment to a vegan message is
00:17:55
Speaker
definitely a good thing. Long-term
Burnout and Contribution in Activism
00:17:57
Speaker
commitment to a vegan message, a public vegan message is a good thing rather than you know, the potential for like just a short, sharp thing that's then over. That's a massive presumption, isn't Because my two poetry comparisons, we don't know, we don't know. But I do worry about the potential for people to just be shut down and lose access or the the burnout to their mental health. So that kind of correlate with what you were sort of getting at, Anthony, your sort of potential concerns.
00:18:27
Speaker
Yeah, well, and and like you say, it's all it's all hypothetical to an extent. I mean, we can see what's happening to folk who are ah doing these open rescues. So, I mean, we've reported on the show in the last couple of months that actually the MBR beagles in the east of England.
00:18:47
Speaker
I think the last two cases of that that went to trial, no one was charged. So we can use that data to be like, well, doesn't seem like people are actually getting prosecuted here. So then maybe the picture changed, maybe the risk changes. But it's goodness, it's a real hairline strategy, isn't it? You've got to be so precise.
00:19:07
Speaker
But I heard her an interview with Wayne the other day, Wayne Shung the other day. And um he was this is from when he was in prison. I think he dictated it or something. It was a blog, I guess. And he dictated it from prison. And he
Reflections of Activists
00:19:18
Speaker
was saying that even in prison, that he appreciated the suffering of the people around him. you know He was like, well, my cellmate has some mental health issues and everything. He was just talking about the people he was in prison with. And he said, well, this is nothing compared to what these dogs have been through. And so I think there's also something to be said for like experiencing that suffering and appreciating that suffering. And maybe that's a special kind of person who can feel that way.
00:19:45
Speaker
Yeah. I think there's a big difference between doing this. I mean, we've ah Zoe Rosenberg rescued a chicken, didn't she? So in a sense, her target is animal ag.
00:19:58
Speaker
Whereas what happened at Ridgeland Farms and MBR Acres is we're looking at animal testing. Now I can, I think I can get behind open rescue a lot more with regards to animal testing, because I think public opinion is far more on the side of animal rights when it comes to dogs, when it comes to animal testing. And so in terms of backing something, backing a campaign,
00:20:27
Speaker
that is on the precipice. It's on the very verge of being one. I listened to a great episode of our Hen House podcast this morning.
00:20:38
Speaker
um I've got it up here in front of me. It came out on March the 20th, And it's called How to Build Winning Animal Rights Campaigns. Really recommend listeners check out that general, that podcast, but that specific episode. I listened to that episode as well. Yeah, yeah. What nerds we are, Shane.
00:20:54
Speaker
I know, but but it bothered me though, because I thought it was too welfarist. Okay. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah there was that There was that debate in there too. But what was interesting was they were talking about we can shut down the fur industry in this generation of animal rights activists. That is an achievable goal. You could argue that the progress the rate of progress...
00:21:16
Speaker
suggest that that will happen though of course we shouldn't be complacent same with greyhound racing here in the UK same with a lot of things it's on the verge and then doing something really direct where there's ah a risk of a short term a custodial sentence for some of the people involved in a direct action That I could understand. i have more issues with Zoe Rosenberg at the age of 23, doing jail time, having a criminal record, fighting animal ag, which of course I want it to end in my lifetime, but like... would I would i bet my children's
Comparison to Historical Movements
00:21:54
Speaker
income and and safety and wellbeing on it? No, wouldn't. She is an at adult, isn't she? And I mean, I guess that is part of the argument. Just.
00:22:04
Speaker
Yeah, but, you know, ah I did some quite extreme things in in in sort activism for like LGBTQ rights when I was younger. And I can remember folks being really worried what I was choosing to do. This was in my pre-vegan days. And I don't regret any of it. But I know people were being like, well, you've got to live with the consequences of actions. And again, it's a little bit like, what if, what if, what if we don't know? Do we, we don't know. And, you know, she could...
00:22:36
Speaker
live to feel tons of pride for what she's done. I hope she does and and I'm sure she does. i'm I'm sure like the doing the right thing is you know surely what is is fueling her. I think I i would be uncomfortable if as a movement we take the line that well if you're an adult you can do what you can make whatever choices you want to for the movement and i know that's not what you're saying dominic but like we we can have a whole separate podcast debate as to whether there is such a thing as free will or not but the fact is if
Documentaries vs. Direct Activism
00:23:11
Speaker
as a movement we're saying open rescue is a great thing getting arrested is a really great oh aren't these people brilliant we are influencing people to think oh well this is a really worthy way of investing my energy. Whereas what we could all do is we could all say that the thing that makes most people vegan is documentaries. How many people have you met that went vegan because of a documentary? For me personally, it's by far the most effective thing other than maybe, you know, a friend talking to you. We could all just get really great at making documentaries. You know, are we are we going to do jail time for that?
00:23:45
Speaker
I don't know. But let's look at other social justice movements and what has really turned the tide on them. I mean, I'm thinking of like the civil rights movement in America or the suffrage suffrage movement in the U.S. and in the U.K. And people in those movements were prosecuted for for breaking laws that they thought were unjust. And then eventually what happens is that public opinion shifts against that against the laws. And it changed because like in the case of civil rights, you see the videos of the way that people are treated and you see that they're breaking the law in service of their beliefs.
00:24:21
Speaker
So I just think that sometimes we have to take a big swing. And I think that these activists are saying, you know what, I'm not going to content just to sit back and make a documentary that maybe people are a watcher, they won't watch or tell everybody go vegan at a, you know, with my booth at a college campus or whatever. They want to do something big and splashy that the public sees and gets people talking.
00:24:44
Speaker
I absolutely despair when I go into schools and I see how the suffragette movement is taught here in the UK. So I get invited in as a poet and it's so, like all the conflict is taken out of like what is conflicts at the heart of it. It's such a
Legal Consequences and Protest Rights
00:25:01
Speaker
sanitised, sterilised version. Like, oh, suffragettes, they're a bit like the Spice Girls, girl power into this. No, no. And like, yeah, Shane's absolutely right that, um,
00:25:13
Speaker
you know, people breaking the laws, you know, the US Civil War, you know, it's like, it's not just everybody jumps on board. I think, you know, I am an autistic man and I definitely think I've been influenced by TV shows, movies, where the plucky band of kids stand up to the big all and authorities and there's always a happy ending it's always like yeah we bring down the man power to the people and I know that going back to what i was saying earlier about my own LGBTQ campaigning one thing I can remember a friend of mine a poet she she got arrested and I went with her to a court case and I had no doubt that she'd get off Scott Free because it's like she's morally in the right.
00:26:02
Speaker
And
Strategic Activism and Support Networks
00:26:03
Speaker
she didn't get off Scott Free. She got a... a criminal record and and a fine. And as it happens, she's an example of someone who this is like 20 years ago. and she's She's, she's as fierce as ever. Every anti-war protest she's there. She is so political. But at the time i went home and wept. Cause I was like, Oh my word, this is reality. I never thought the world could be unfair.
00:26:30
Speaker
Of course I did. But, but, you know, I really thought that no judge would, um, think that what she did was wrong because she was on the the side of justice the side of uh of doing what was right you know and and what she got um in trouble for was was trespassing it like the reason you know and it it weren't you know it was such a gray area and uh which brings me back to the uh original point i made at the very start of this that yeah it just it really really really
00:27:03
Speaker
doesn't sit in my brain the strong views a lot of people have on things like damaged property. You know, we've we've seen a lot of stuff in the news and, you know, our government here in the UK what's been going on with the right to protest, you know, ah there was, there was a whole Palestine action thing, like, you know, little old ladies being arrested for holding bits of paper. And then the Supreme court being like, Oh, that, that weren't all right. Arresting those ladies. That wasn't okay to do that. And the massive amounts of police time spent on that.
00:27:38
Speaker
So, uh, yeah, you know, it's, uh, but And yet there are so many people who are like, yeah, damaged property is a really big crime. Trespassing is a really big crime. Imagine if it was your property. It's like, but imagine if you were one of the dogs. Imagine if you were one the... And that is always the argument us vegans are up against, the speciesism argument, the kind of like... I know so many people at your ex-wife's, ah you know, with the guinea pigs, who'd just be like, but they're just guinea pigs, aren't they?
00:28:08
Speaker
They're just guinea pigs. It's like... Yeah, they're guinea pigs. It's a life. It's, you know, there ah they feel pain. They feel suffering. And it's... it's it's getting through with that message, isn't it?
00:28:22
Speaker
I think if if my final word on this could be, final word for me, I should say, I'm not shutting anyone else down, Shane, like, please have your final word too. But I think it's like, it's incredibly pious to to be doing these actions. And like, goodness, we need like every animal rights activist to be as badass as it can possibly, you can possibly be. I think that's what we need. there's a fine line between badass and reckless. And I think just to before doing an action or encouraging others to do an action, maybe like pretend it's your child. you know You'd want your child to do the right thing and to live by their values. And you'd probably just be a concerned parent. You'd be like, can we just check what our exit plans are here? And what if the worst happens? Like, have we Have we considered that before we do this bold thing that hopefully makes the world a better place? I think as long as we do that,
Property Damage in Protests
00:29:18
Speaker
I'm all right with it.
00:29:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that they that often these actions, they are planned in advance. They are thought out. the People do often know they are going to be arrested and they do make those provisions.
00:29:30
Speaker
And I think that it's important if you aren't going to do a rescue and I'm not going to go do an open rescue either because I don't have support from my friends and family for me to do that. And I think you have to have support for for your friends and family to do that.
00:29:45
Speaker
But if I knew somebody who was going to do that, I think I could support them by saying, okay, so what is our plan if you get arrested? If you have kids, okay, who's taking the kids? Can I, you know, can I take them? What about your pets? You have a dog, you have a cat.
00:29:58
Speaker
You know, what's the plan for them if you go to jail? Do we need to pick them up? We have their food ready, all of that stuff. I mean, so that's way that we could support people. And as far as the property damage, I just can't. I mean, I understand if you own a store or something, I understand. But that was like when we had all the Black Lives Matter protests in the United States.
00:30:16
Speaker
in the killing of um like George Floyd and everybody. It was like, oh, but what about all the property these people are damaging? Okay, because you have to, they're damaging it because they're trying to get people to pay attention and to make a point. And sometimes that's what has to happen. And sometimes that's, you people go to prison and then over through history, people will look back and say, oh, that wasn't right that Martin Luther King went to prison or that wasn't right that the suffragists were having hunger strikes in prison. These things weren't right and they happened, but that draw drew attention to them.
00:30:48
Speaker
If they hadn't happened, then maybe people
Ongoing Struggle for Animal Rights
00:30:50
Speaker
wouldn't have changed. What I find really hard in my role as a poet is that there's all the talk of being on the right side of history as if all the battles have been won. But actually, there have been number of times where I have not threatened, that's too strong a word, but talked about leaving a poetry project because I've considered it unethical. And I'm like such a rogue for doing that. It's like, so, you know, I'm not talking about like yelling at any individual, making them feel really bad. I don't mean that. I mean, saying, okay, well, X, Y, and Z is happening. And the consequence of that is ABC, you know, how about we don't do that? Well, no, that's what the project is going on. Well, I don't want to be part of that then. And, uh,
00:31:35
Speaker
Yeah, it is a lot of people. That's their coping mechanism that all the battles have been won and the world is fine. Animals are fairly treated. There's no suffering. You know, it could be hard to get through if that's how somebody is getting through the day. i think this kind of what they feel is a positive mindset. It's really, really hard, really hard to get into it.
00:31:57
Speaker
think
Engagement and Support for Vegan Advocacy
00:31:58
Speaker
that if I had a friend who was talking about doing this, I think I would be really supportive. And as Shane said, thinking about how I can help in the ways I can help for fear of being really taking the complete opposite stance with what I said at the very beginning, where I was like, oh, feel so insecure. I think that we do well to remind ourselves that being vegan is ah Acting with our boycotting of financing certain products, being vocal about veganism, whether it is on a public platform or whether it's just having integrity with our family and friends.
00:32:38
Speaker
That is a huge action. That in itself is a huge action. And we do well. to I'm talking to myself more than anyone else. We do well to remember that it's a huge action.
00:32:50
Speaker
Being vegan, being consistently vegan, being proud of being vegan, being positive about vegan. You know, that' that's great. great Yeah, amen. ah Thank you everyone for listening to us talk. This is just our opinions. As we often say, we are a group of friends who happen to be vegan, who love chatting, but we really encourage ah everyone to send in their views. You can drop us a line by email. we're We're on the Instagram these days as well. We'll put all the links in the show notes about how you can get in touch with us. We would love it if you did. Drop us a line.
00:33:28
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:33:48
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Okay, thank you, Anthony, and thank you, Shane. Listeners, we would love you to know about Kofi, K-O-F-I-S. This is a way that if you really enjoy what we do, you can support us because, as I mentioned earlier, we're just friends. We're just a group of people. We don't have any big budget, any big ah grant money or people funding us. So,
00:34:21
Speaker
you can support us if you aren't someone who necessarily wants to email in or speak publicly there are other ways you can make sure that enough of the falafel keeps going there's a big old link to uh ko-fi in the show notes uh have a click on it might be a way that you can support this keeping on getting out to as many people with which we can reach.
00:34:44
Speaker
Indeed.
Podcast Closing Remarks
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for anyone who is able to do that. We're going be back on Monday. Guess what? We're going to be talking about the news because that's what we do on Mondays. Myself, Julie and Mark will be here for Vegan Week. and Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thanks to Antony and Dominic for all your contributions. And thanks again to everyone for listening.
00:35:07
Speaker
I'm Shane. You've been listening to Vegan Talk from Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:35:17
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:35:32
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:35:58
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world week.
00:36:23
Speaker
week so check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes and remember to get an alert for each new episode simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from