Transcript
Speaker: sometimes there's a little bit of imposter syndrome but really I think that with this community it's more imposter treatment.
Speaker: and you don't have to read on that because that needs to be unpacked. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Curiously Talks podcast. My name is Brenda Dogbay and in this podcast we center Black -Canadian voices in the African diaspora and the space of Black professionals when we talk everything, career progression, growth, and everything that can help you slay your career and take your career to the next step.
Speaker: And today I have the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Helen Ofosu. She is a powerhouse, a career coach, a PhD, and she's been working in this career development space from a psychology perspective for over 20 years. And she also just recently published a book
Speaker: I'm going to share it right here it's called how to be resilient in your career and she has her copy too and so we're really excited to talk to you Dr. Helen about building resilient careers and especially career transitions because I think I get a lot of questions from my audience around career transitions
Speaker: And this is something that I think puts you really interested in understanding how to better manage them and then how to minimize the challenges associated with them. So why don't we start by hearing from you. How did you get into this career space and your consulting work? We want to hear it all. So over to you.
Speaker: Well, it's ironic. I actually consider myself an accidental psychologist because when I started university, I really wasn't sure what I was going to take. So I had a full year of chemistry, biology, physics, and calculus, and I was looking for one more full year elective or two half electives.
Speaker: And a friend who I'd known since childhood, we went to camp together, we worked at camp together, and he was a little older than me. And he's the one who said, oh, you should take psychology. It'll open doors for you. So that's literally how I even got the bug for psychology. And I liked it because it's kind of multidisciplinary. There's, of course, the traditional psychology pieces, but there's some stats.
Speaker: brain and behavior, there's all these different things that are part of psychology. And then when I graduated, I took a gap year because I wasn't sure what I was going to do next. And in the end, I decided because I like business, I would either do an MBA or do industrial and organizational psychology, which is basically work and business psychology.
Speaker: And in the end, I decided to become one of few instead of one of more, you know, one of many in a sense. So that's how I got into psychology. But my first job was in Ottawa. So I was actually recruited right out of grad school.
Speaker: And I was working with a group of other organizational psychologists. And I got very good at things like succession planning, developing the criteria for screening, you know, for screening, but also for hiring, for promotion, identifying people with higher potential for development. So that's really how I got into the career space.
Speaker: And was this in the public sector or in the private sector? This was at the Public Service Commission, so federal government. I worked there, I worked at Global Affairs, and I worked at D &D. And you know, it was all good for a while until I started feeling a little too boxed in. Boxed, yeah. And so it started as a leave of absence to kind of test the waters in the private sector under my own shingle.
Speaker: And it was tough at first, but I quite love what I'm doing and I'm grateful that I stuck it out because now I'm doing far more than I would have been allowed to do had I stayed in the public service. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: but that must have been a scary transition to make, right? Like leaves of absence feel still a little safe, but how is that final decision to say, okay, I'm cutting loose and I'm betting on myself? Well, it was stressful for sure, but I
Speaker: I don't know. It was a leap of faith for sure, because at the time I was a single parent, because I was divorced many years ago. And like you said, I basically just bet on myself. Because many of my colleagues, now some were very supportive, but many just figured, oh, well, good luck. Nobody does that.
Speaker: Who leaves government, right? I'm sure. That's probably what a lot of people were saying, right? Well, that's it. And the truth is that many of the people I left are still in the exact same jobs that I left them in 11 years ago. It's ridiculous. It is, actually. Yeah. But in fairness, I was always an outlier in psychology. I'm probably a bit more extroverted, definitely more entrepreneurial, probably more creative.
Speaker: than many of my peers. So it's been a good fit. Oh, that's great. And so maybe talking a little bit about some of the clients you work with, especially black professionals, what are some of the issues that are recurring that tend to come up over and over? Well, I'd say, okay, cause I do some executive coaching.
Speaker: I do career coaching and I do some HR work. So I'd say maybe 30 to 40 % of my work is with executives.
Speaker: And of that, it may be about 50 -50 Black versus other groups. And for sure I have a lot of extra things to offer to Black professionals because I know that experience. And so, you know, it could be a range of things. I think the common issues are being underestimated, sometimes being excluded.
Speaker: dealing with racism and just navigating work as a Black woman, because that's very different from every other group. Sometimes there's a little bit of imposter syndrome. But really, I think that with this community, it's more imposter treatment rather than imposter syndrome.
Speaker: Oh, and you're allowed to read on that because that needs to be unpacked. So the classic version of imposter syndrome is when people feel that they don't deserve to be where they are, that maybe they got there by mistake or through like a favor and that they're kind of a fraud and somebody's going to notice at some point and throw them out. So that's the normal version of imposter syndrome.
Speaker: But I think what happens to many of us is that we know we are amazing. And you never have to be that much more, right? You don't get in the door unless you are...
Speaker: equally or better, usually better qualified than another candidate. You have counterparts, yeah. Yeah. So it's not usually that we don't think we're good enough. It's just that after time, having people picking at you, picking on you, microaggressions, making you feel like you don't belong, underestimating you, maybe having the experience of being passed over,
Speaker: kind of low -key exclusion, all of that stuff. And high -key sometimes. Yeah, you're right. The big, bold stuff, but also the subtle stuff, right? So all of these things have a way of chipping away. Chipping on your confidence. That's it. So I think it's more imposter treatment rather than classic imposter syndrome.
Speaker: And I like how you're framing that because imposter syndrome always looks inward. Like there's something wrong with me. I'm the problem. I'm not qualified. And so, and often the antidote to that is just feel more confident, like be bolder, this and that. However, I think what's powerful about imposter treatment is it acknowledges that
Speaker: A lot of the times you're not the problem, which is not to absolve individuals of their responsibility, you know, in whatever role you play in that context. But there is a lot often that's at play that's actually outside of us. And that's that imposter treatment where you be treated less than
Speaker: And then you're under this pressure and it's not imagined. I think that's where it gets tricky. At least for me, I find it hard to get out of your own head where, you know, am I imagining it? Was that a real microaggression? Am I the problem? But imposter treatment really helps you heal from the fact that I'm not flawed. The system is treating me unfairly and in a flawed way.
Speaker: But also, as I was listening to you, I was remembering something else. Quite often, people know they're mistreating us, but they're also kind of downplaying what they're doing or explaining it away or trying to make it seem like, oh, you're just being too sensitive or whatever. Plus, there's like - They minimize our reaction to their intentional mistreatment. Yeah.
Speaker: knowing full well that they're doing something that's unfair and you're being treated differently, right? And so all that gaslighting, it creates some internal confusion. Am I exaggerating? Am I being too sensitive? Was that racist? And honestly, I think every episode I've had, that tends to be a question where you can do community so that you could ask yourselves and say, did I imagine that? Was that real?
Speaker: And another theme that comes up again and again is this whole thing about being one of very few or being the only. Yes. And for me, I feel it myself very, very acutely, because as a Black psychologist, I am literally a unicorn in Canada. You are. That's a whole other conversation. That needs to be in fact in its own way.
Speaker: Well, I mean, we've done our own research, and the best estimate we have is 30 Black psychologists in Canada. 30? I believe the Black Canadian population is about 4 million. And the Canadian population is 40 million. So basically, there are none.
Speaker: No, exactly. And again, if we're thinking quota, right, like for everyone who needs one, who is available to you? I want to revisit what you mentioned around that being alone, because that's another recurring thing, the lonely only, right? Let's talk a little bit about that experience, because I certainly have experienced it several times, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
Speaker: And the thing is that when you are the only or one of few, sometimes the tendency is to try to blend in. But you know what? I walk into a room, there is no such thing as blending in. Everyone is going to notice there's a black woman here, right? So I figure, you know what? I'm going to own that, and I'm going to make the most of it. They will always remember me because I was the only one.
Speaker: So I try to convert that into part of my strength and part of my value instead of trying to blend in because let's face it, nobody who's successful.
Speaker: and memorable blends in. Not at all. Never. Not at all. So I figured I'm just going to be in undergrad because I remember that was my huge culture shock where I was one Black student in organic chemistry. I think that was my first class in undergrad.
Speaker: the one Black girl in a sea of 300 people, not a single soul looked like me. And it was jarring, but then at some point I was like, when I need references, the prof is going to remember me because I was at the Black girl who sits on the back, okay, I remember you. And so I really appreciate that, like the mindset shift where it's not something that you're holding against yourself, but that you're owning and leveraging.
Speaker: And I have another piece to it. Sometimes we think if we're the only one, how can we possibly make a difference? But I heard this amazing analogy. You have kids, so I'm sure you've messed around with food coloring.
Speaker: not food poisoning, food coloring. So you put one tiny drop of pink or a green or a blue in water or a milk, the whole thing changes.
Speaker: Ooh, I'm going to do that. They feel the same too, that they are experiencing that in their schools and whatnot. So being able to see that color.
Speaker: It literally makes a difference. I love it. That's it. So those are some things, but tokenism is another thing. Yes. Right? Because so many people want to diminish what we are doing, what we are contributing, and why we're here. Yes. And it makes me crazy. Because I know what I have done to get here.
Speaker: Right. So how do you fight that? I mean, how do you overcome it? Because there's imposter treatment, which I think the other side of that imposter treatment, that coin, is tokenism. Well, you only got here to fill the quota. Whereas you know full well that all the people you're seeing in that room, in that boardroom, in that team, you know that you're more qualified.
Speaker: Right. So how do we, how do we navigate that? Well, you know, we had a beautiful real life example a few years ago. You remember the US college scandal? Remind me. Okay. So the gist of that is that in the United States, a big scandal broke out where it became crystal clear that for decades, people who had a lot of money
Speaker: or like rich people and celebrities were basically gaming the system. They were giving donations to universities or getting people to pay. Not just mothers, but the scandal of people trying to get in, whether it's through SAT scores, legacy money. I think Michelle Obama talks a lot about there's a lot of Fuota people.
Speaker: So it's not just affirmative action, there's the legacy money. Exactly. So people who's so the legacy is a bit different because these are people whose parents went so they have an easier road getting in. But the scandal was about people who had others take SATs, or they'd create fake portfolios to make these kids look like they were varsity athletes. They were given scholarships and admission, even though they didn't play water polo or
Speaker: or whatever the sport was. But the takeaway is that you have these people who did not deserve to be there. White people who did not deserve to be there, who had actually taken places. These are competitive positions, taken places from Black and other racialized people who were qualified. But guess what? When they got there, they made the most of it.
Speaker: They did not worry about how they got there. They just did what they could. So my feeling is, you know what? They've earned your place. Get in there and do your best. Especially when you know you've got a PhD. You know they didn't give that to you.
Speaker: You had a sweat and maybe bleeding and crying. The journey to finish was so arduous. And, you know, the more, again, the more you share with people, you realize that your, your experience was not unique. A lot of us went through a very similar experience. So I wanted to talk a little bit about career transitions and just how you guide
Speaker: folks through career transitions and you know your book is about how to be resilient in your career. I think transitions are particularly hard
Speaker: at almost any season. So I recall, you know, your quarter life crisis, if you want to call it when you're 25 and you finished university, you don't know where you're going, you don't know what you're doing next. And then each subsequent transition also comes with its own growing pain. So what are some of the skills or tactics that you recommend for folks who are navigating transitions?
Speaker: Well, first of all, these things are very unique. So I take, I mean, there's definitely some overlap, but I try to treat each person and their circumstances for what it is. And, you know, often the big thing is remembering that even if somebody makes a choice to change jobs or pivot into a new direction,
Speaker: they're allowed to change their mind. They don't have to think of it as a one -way thing where they must go down one path, and if they don't like it, they are doomed, and that's the end of it. Right. So remembering that when you look back at a career, it's really about these stepping stones. So so long as you're taking a step towards something that's a better fit for you,
Speaker: That's meaningful. And it's good. It's usually not one gigantic step that happens all at once. Usually it's maybe not baby steps, but smaller steps. Because most people who are hiring any kind of professional are probably not
Speaker: trying to do one radical thing, right? They're not going from being a lawyer to being a psychiatrist in one step. There's multiple little steps. So that's definitely a part of it.
Speaker: I think the cover of my book or the title of my book is sometimes misleading because I'm really focusing on doing things that allow you to have a long lasting career. Yeah, so that's not about it up so that folks can see what the cover looks like.
Speaker: Yeah. So it's not about doing things to boost your own personal resilience, because I think if anything, many of us overuse our personal resilience. So there's that distinction between the personal versus the professional resilience.
Speaker: That's it. And so with these transitions and these pivots, it's making sure that whatever you do, you're going to be gaining some extra skills, some experience, a broader network, something that you can take with you that makes your career more sustainable in the long term. Right. And it's about, I guess, building your toolkit so that you could constantly come back to it
Speaker: and you are diversifying the types of tools so that regardless of what circumstance you find yourself in you've got enough to to fall on. And anyone who I'm dealing with who has like a reasonably good personality and that's most of the people? Most. Well I mean it's it's rare
Speaker: I mean, people who have awful personalities probably don't want to be talking with me one -on -one anyway, right? So most people have pretty good personalities and I ask them in all seriousness, what would you rather do? Write a cover letter? No, no, search online for a job.
Speaker: Revisit your resume, your cover letter, customize everything, apply, have a phone interview and then maybe some testing or a preliminary interview and then another interview and then the thorough reference check. Would you rather do that or would you rather have a bunch of coffees and lunches?
Speaker: Obviously, most people would rather have the coffees and the lunches. Even if they're paying for it. Because at the end of the day, if you know enough people who know you well enough,
Speaker: that's going to create opportunities that you're never ever going to get if you are relying on this brute force applications, right? Yes. How do you navigate networking though? Because I know, you know, coming back to some of what we talked about initially, there's the challenges faced with
Speaker: So there's the imposter treatment where you're also being viewed as less than, maybe sometimes being looked over, you might not be in the high profile or high visibility files. And then for some people, I know they've tried to network and it doesn't work in that, you know,
Speaker: Either you send your resume and because of the name or whatever, there's the name discrimination and nobody really calls you back or that the conversations feel futile. So how do you encourage folks to navigate networking when sometimes culturally putting yourself out there and reaching out and boldly asking folks for coffees and lunches might not be within either your cultural or personality comfort zone?
Speaker: Well, first thing, when you want different results, you got to do different things. And I do all kinds of things. It's hard sometimes, but I do things every year I'm doing things that I never thought I'd have to do because
Speaker: I'm doing something new. I mean, recording this book for Audible, I was having these drops of like oil of oregano. So my voice would be consistent every day. It was terrible. Right. So remembering that is helpful. And when I say networking, I don't mean send your resume to somebody because that's not really networking. True. Right. So fundamentally, I think networking is about finding ways to create mutually beneficial relationships.
Speaker: And you go from there. And let's face it, not everyone is open to networking with us. You can tell when certain people don't want to network with you. So that's not where you start. You work with folks who are a bit more open. And I admit that I have it a little easier than people who are employees. Because for me,
Speaker: Well, almost everybody knows that I'm Black before they interact with me. So if they hate Black people, they're probably not calling. Or whatever I have is so irresistible that they're going to be polite and respectful.
Speaker: Right. So I recognize that that is an advantage that I have because I'm not an employee. But, you know, we can often feel when somebody just doesn't warm up to us. It's not a feeling. And that happens regardless of I think your background, the people who are, you know, you just don't oil and water and that's, you know, it is what it is. I like your definition of networking as
Speaker: building mutually beneficial relationships. Because a lot of the time, and I get people send me a C visa or hit me up on LinkedIn, and they're like, I need a job. And then that's a conversation ender real quick, because I don't have a job. That's it. Yeah. Whereas I think the more when folks approach it from a perspective of curiosity, then there's that mutual curiosity where we want to I want to learn about you just as much as you would want to learn about you as well.
Speaker: And the truth is that everybody talks about networking, but there are some mechanics that are helpful. And I don't think we have enough time to get into all of it, but there's certainly a chapter that's all about networking and diligence, because these are not things that happen overnight. You need some time, right? Because relationships that are meaningful
Speaker: It's not always - They're not instant coffee relationships. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's love at first sight, but not always, right? Yeah. And if it's always love at first sight, then a little bit of a question mark there. So maybe to bring the conversation together, what are maybe five tips that you could share with our audience on how they could build resilient careers? And I really appreciate that you made that distinction between
Speaker: personal resilience and our tendency to maybe even erode some of it.
Speaker: versus the type of professional resilience where you have that longer term view of your career journey. So any tangible, actionable tips that you can share? Yeah, so that's a good one because the career resilience allows you to stay the course and not burn yourself out. I'm going to cheat a little bit and pick up my book and see what the chapter titles are because really and truly,
Speaker: It's in there. Well, it's in there. And, you know, just last week, somebody said, oh, my goodness, your book is like cheat codes for a career. And I thought, yes, that's exactly what it is, because I'm sure that's what we do. Like I said, I keep it close because I want to be able to refer back and say, you know, OK, what was that chapter on? So so walk us through five
Speaker: Quick tips that we could, and if folks want the deeper dive, they're certainly welcome to get the book.
Speaker: So I think another, so the career resilience is one, I think relationships and building a good network. That right there, I think it's more important than being smarter, being hardworking. If I had to have a choice between being brilliant and being somebody who's got a great personality and a good network, I would choose the network every single time. Really interesting. Absolutely, because most of the people who I know who are very successful,
Speaker: Yeah, they're smart enough, but it's their network that seems to have changed everything. True. So that's two, number three.
Speaker: even if you can, this is for black folks in particular or racialized folks, even if you can tolerate being mistreated, right? Because some people seem to have a tolerance for it. You just think, well, I can just gut it out. Yeah. You know, I'm getting paid, whatever. The fact is, it is hurting you.
Speaker: Even if you can tolerate it, what it's doing to your heart, your mind, and also your physical body, it is not trivial. There's research now that shows that this chronic mistreatment has a cost. It shows up in your body and can lead to illness and other things.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's cumulative. I think that's the part that we don't internalize. Sometimes we will see it in health challenges further down the line, but it really is cumulative. Yeah. I forget how many have we covered now. Okay, we've got three so far. We've got three. I think another one, and it's related to this mistreatment thing.
Speaker: But just because we can tolerate something doesn't mean it's not having an impact on our work performance. True. Because there's usually a link. Because at the end of the day, if we are stressed out, exhausted, distracted, whatever, these things eventually start to have an impact on our performance at work.
Speaker: So this mental health and wellness piece, it's not really important. And it's not to be minimized or ignored. Final tip. Final tip. This one's a bit controversial.
Speaker: I love that. Everybody loves a good controversy. So especially during the pandemic, I noticed that everybody who I knew doesn't matter what their gender was, their race, everybody who seemed to survive okay had special support in place.
Speaker: They probably had a coach or a mentor. They probably had a faith person. They may have had a therapist. And if they're lucky, they had at least one confidant, whether that was a partner or close friend. A partner, friend, whoever that person was. Yeah. And so especially for racialized leaders,
Speaker: I think that finding somebody to talk through all those hard things, especially some of the racial trauma that we're going through is a big deal. And it could be a friend, it could be somebody else. I'm a psychologist, so I see the brilliance of working with people who know how to help us process these things quickly so that things that happened years ago don't trigger us in moments right now.
Speaker: Absolutely. And that's really key because if there's something I'm learning is that the importance and the value of community, and not just community writ large socially, but I think building even micro communities, whether it's a community of professionals or community of, you know, black women executives or community.
Speaker: finding people who have a shared common vision and then leveraging that to really sound off, learn from, and even consult and comfort one another. And that's so powerful. Yeah. And all of that is captured by, you know, either that community of practice or that combination of therapist, coach, mentor, confidant. Faith person. Yeah. Faith person. So key. So key.
Speaker: So where can folks find you? This is a shameless plug place. Number one, let's start with where can folks find your book and then where can folks find you online? Well, the book is available on Amazon, chapters, pretty much anywhere where you'd want to buy a book. And in fact, if you go to theresilientcareer .com,
Speaker: You can find how to buy the book. You can buy it online for sure. But if you want to buy it from a local bookseller, all the information's there, ISBN and whatever. It'll soon be on Audible as well. In the coming weeks, it'll be on Audible.
Speaker: And all my social media is there as well. Okay. I'm experimenting with TikTok a little bit. Oh, good for you. Yeah. I'm not there yet, but we'll get there. My kids are trying to get me there, but I'm like baby steps, okay? Instagram. I figured at least one, one platform. Let's take it one step at a time.
Speaker: And it's different because for you, you are a full -time public servant. So this is a side hustle. This is a passion project. So I respect that. And I'm not so sure I'd be taking on as much social media if I was doing it part -time. And I have somebody who helps me with it. In fact, two people who helped me with it.
Speaker: Sometimes three. So it's... You got a team, which is important and amazing. So what is your social media handle? So is it IO Advisory? It is not. For the most part, it's Dr. Helen O.
Speaker: C -A. Okay. And so that's who I am on Instagram, on Twitter, X, and what else is there now? TikTok. And LinkedIn, I'm just me. Yeah. Ellen Fosa, yes.
Speaker: Love it, love it, love it. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for sharing these amazing insights. I'll make sure that when we share the podcast, we'll also share the links. I think resilientcareer .com seems to be the hub where folks can find out more about the book and where to meet you. And you also take on clients, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker: I do. I take one -on -one clients for career coaching, for executive coaching, and some HR work, sometimes helping organizations with their hiring or EDI interventions, research. Excellent. Excellent. Well, thanks for coming. I'm sure there's so much more for us to talk about. So we'd love to have you come back again, but thank you for your time and let's continue this play together.
Speaker: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been a long time coming.
