Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
003: Black joy is resistance and now to embrace softness
91 Plays1 year ago
How do you navigate spaces as a black professional? How can we support black men to take care of their mental health? How can we cultivate and nurture black joy? In this episode with psychotherapist Roxanne Francis, we talk about how to seek mental health support from a therapist that looks like you. We also talk about the importance of creating soft spaces for ourselves and the black men in our lives and our children so they can flourish and thrive.
Recommended
Transcript
Workplace Resentments and Gaslighting
00:00:04
Speaker
is really, really important because you are going to have resentments on the job. You are going to feel gas lit on the job. And not just feel, you are going to feel gas lit. You are, exactly, exactly.
Introduction to Curiously Talks and Roxanne Francis
00:00:16
Speaker
Hello, everybody. Welcome to Careersly Talks podcast. My name is Brenda Dogway. I'm the host of this podcast. And today I have the pleasure of chatting with Roxanne Francis, who is an award-winning social worker.
00:00:30
Speaker
consultant, leadership speaker, who has been helping people improve their lives for over 15 years.
Roxanne's Expertise in Mental Health and Diversity
00:00:37
Speaker
And she is the founder and CEO of Francis Psychotherapy and Consulting Services, where she is the principal therapist in her group practice, coaches and supervisors are the therapists and provides consultation to various organizations.
00:00:52
Speaker
addressing topics such as mental health in the workplace, diversity and inclusion, racial trauma at work, burnout and women's issues. And so Roxanne is also an adjunct professor at the School of Social Work at the University of Toronto. And in 2020, she was recognized as one of Canada's top
00:01:11
Speaker
100 Black women to watch. So she's a sought after podcast guest who shares her mental health experience in print and online publications such as instance magazine and today's parent magazine, as well as multiple local and national media outlets such as CBC, CTV, breakfast television. So I'm really privileged to have this conversation with Roxanne today.
Black Mental Health and Therapy Challenges
00:01:35
Speaker
And we wanted to
00:01:37
Speaker
talk a little bit about the issues that are facing Black Canadians. So what we're going to talk about today is Black mental health and therapy. So Roxanne, welcome to the Curiously Talks podcast. And maybe I turn it over to you to share a little bit about your experience around Black mental health and your work supporting Black professionals in Canada. Of course. It is my joy and pleasure
00:02:06
Speaker
To be with you, to be on this podcast, you know, as a black woman and myself, someone who is, I guess you would say a career woman, it is not lost on me that mental health is a significant issue in the black community, especially people who are in professional spaces, who are having the corporate ladder, who are in entrepreneurship.
Racial Trauma and Microaggressions in Corporate Spaces
00:02:34
Speaker
It's challenging and people are just now beginning to recognize that some of the things that they're feeling, some of the things that they're struggling with is actually related to mental health, right? And people are beginning to realize that some of the medical aggression that they're experiencing at work, some of the overt racism even that they're facing at work
00:03:00
Speaker
really does impact their mental wellness. And I've spent a lot of time talking about racial trauma or, you know, race-based traumatic stress and how things like microaggressions can chip away at you and wear away at you, like, you know, like water drips on, on, on a rock after a while, wears away. And we don't know that. Exactly. Exactly. And so when I talk to people who are telling me that,
00:03:30
Speaker
you know, they're struggling to fall asleep or they wake up with panic attacks or they cry on Sunday nights when they know they have to go to work on Monday. That can be experienced by multiple people, not just Black individuals, but we know that Black individuals deal with more when they go to work. And so I have a real conversation with people around
00:03:54
Speaker
things that they're facing at work, the struggles that they're facing in the Black community itself, you know, you're married to a Black individual and you wonder if they're going to come home safely, right? You're raising boys and you're wondering, I'm raising boys and I often wonder when are they going to go from being cute to being seen as a threat?
00:04:13
Speaker
Right. When that preteen, just that, that cusp where they now suddenly they're black men, they are still children. Exactly. Exactly. You know? And so these are some of the things, the unseen things, the things that we wear in our bodies and on our bodies, in our hearts, right?
Career Parity Delays for Black Immigrants
00:04:35
Speaker
That really impacts our mental wellness that people can't see.
00:04:39
Speaker
And it's really important that we start to address some of these things so that people can be well. Absolutely. And so I think when we spoke, there's a time when we were chatting together and you were sharing how it takes Black immigrants six to seven years to reach their White counterparts. Yeah. How does that then weigh on our mental health and then our sense of confidence? 100%.
00:05:09
Speaker
It impacts us negatively and in a significant way, right? When you leave a country, depending on how old you are, when you leave that country. But when you leave a country and let's say you are being educated or maybe you've started your career and you have to come to this country to start over, they tell you, come to Canada, it's great, it's wonderful here. But then when you come here and you show someone your CV and they are asking you for Canadian experience when you just got here three weeks ago,
00:05:39
Speaker
It's really, really challenging.
Underemployment and Systemic Racism's Impact
00:05:40
Speaker
And, you know, the education that people receive in their home countries is not seen as par, on par with the education system here, where we know that to not be true and sometimes the education systems in our countries of origin are sometimes ahead of the education system here. But that is not seen as the case.
00:06:03
Speaker
Uh, you know, people are left without, um, without, without employment. People are being underemployed in significant ways, but people have to take care of families. Uh, talk about underemployment, especially professionals, because for me, it's something again, that touches not just me kind of like professionally, but personally, one, there's this whole Canadian experience, which is really called for, um, systemic racism. It's just call it what it is. Exactly.
00:06:31
Speaker
And then especially for Black professionals, right? So whether you're coming in, if you're a lawyer, if you're an engineer or whatever professional cadre that you had, having that just be kind of canceled and the irony of it is that you were attracted to Canada as a professional. Like a lot of people are skilled professionals. And it's like, just kidding, actually.
00:06:57
Speaker
You have to start from scratch. Right. So how does that play out, especially like what are you seeing in your clients or even just in your community? Yeah, people feel less of themselves. People feel, you know, what's wrong with me? Why won't they and why won't they give me the job? What does that mean for my future? What does that mean for my family? Now I'm seen as a failure. I was the thriving person in my home country. I brought my family here.
00:07:25
Speaker
Now no one will hire me. I have all these letters behind my name and now I'm either driving a cab, no shades of people who work these jobs because we need them, right? Yes. And they're, they're valuable. I think here it's that's the skill disconnect between the brain. I think they call it the brain waste between engineers driving. I have, I have very good friends whose husbands were, you know, engineers or, uh, clinicians and we're working in factories, right?
00:07:55
Speaker
or sing buttons, right? When they have all this knowledge and now they're raising children here and are having trouble buying groceries and it really does play a number, a negative number on your psyche because you start to think to yourself, how do I provide for my family? How will we thrive here? I left a great job, house, you know, position status in home country and here I am and you can't even afford to buy a loaf of bread. It's really, really,
00:08:25
Speaker
It's demoralizing, right? And so it's challenging to come up out of that. And so I talk to people all the time around, you know, getting around people who are moving forward, you know, getting around people who used to be where you are, asking them how they got out of it.
Gender Roles and Career Challenges in Black Families
00:08:44
Speaker
You know, can we connect, right? Can we meet for a walk, right? And get some tips and some strategies, but also finding a place where you can talk about those frustrations.
00:08:55
Speaker
Exactly those frustrations inside. You know, anger, you know, angry outbursts. It causes friction in marriages.
00:09:06
Speaker
Right. And let's be real to write like not to not to cut you off on that. But it's gendered, right. Like, so, again, there's this what's happening to our black men in terms of the challenges they're facing to break through. And then there's the women who often
00:09:26
Speaker
are maybe more adaptable or there's less ego, or you just gotta do what you gotta do. If you gotta feed your family, there's no, you'll take whatever job that you get. But how does that dynamic kind of play out for Black families in terms of that just gender dynamic of living through different experiences? Yeah, I mean, let's be real. Many of our home countries as Black individuals have this gendered role
00:09:55
Speaker
you know, dynamic, right? And we, with both, with much respect to both parents or, you know, each party, but when we come here, the, the men generally are underemployed or they're not employable or spend increases and gets the better of them. And then the women will more likely take on, you know, jobs in past with outlets, or they'll get a PSW certificate or
00:10:21
Speaker
you know, they go into these caring fields and it's easier for them to make more money. And so now the power differential shifts, right? And that can be so challenging, you know, maybe before they moved to Canada, the wife was looking to the husband for decision-making to bringing home most of the money and all of these things. And suddenly the rules shift.
00:10:45
Speaker
And so that has a challenge that poses a challenge on the marital dynamic, on the parenting dynamic as well. Sometimes the children now look to the mother as the one who is, you know, calling all the shots or wearing the pants, if you will. Right. And so there are lots of struggles there. There's a lot of arguments there. You know, one of the things that I also recognize is in terms of that six to seven years of playing catch up,
00:11:15
Speaker
What we find is, I'm not ashamed to say, I'm not afraid to say it personally. I had to deal with that myself. And what I find now is that where I am in my career, there are some younger colleagues who are ahead. And initially a few years ago, I would get all up in my feelings and get all upset about that. But then I had to sit down and recognize that they were raised here.
00:11:44
Speaker
and they didn't have to deal with the six or seven year setback, right? And so- And perhaps even because their parents had to deal with the six or seven year setup, it was like, it's going to be different for you and which is kind of what we're hoping for our kids too, right? Exactly. Exactly. Right. And so when, what I often say is that for immigrants to this country, there is no path laid out ahead of you.
00:12:13
Speaker
And so you spend much of your energy and your time with the machete trying to cut that path out,
Leadership Isolation and the 'Black Cliff' Phenomenon
00:12:20
Speaker
right? The blood, the sweat, the portion. You gotta kind of walk through every single hurdle that's thrown in front of you. And so the people who are coming behind, they don't have to spend the extra time with the machete. They can just walk clearly in the path that's made out ahead of them. And for people who've been here for generations, even maybe my white colleagues,
00:12:44
Speaker
whose families have been here for longer than my family has certainly, they not only have a path, but they have different branches off the path, right? So they have- They can climb on, you know what I mean? Latch on and- Exactly. So you're in university? Here, sign up over here for this part-time job because cousins such as such has this big job in this corporation, right?
00:13:11
Speaker
for our families who are just arriving or one generation ahead, it's a little bit harder. And so if we are not careful, we can be caught up in resentment. And so we have to be mindful of that as well. That is so true. And that whole first gen versus new slash old immigrant, I think is always a challenge. And I found
00:13:37
Speaker
when we're doing anti-racism work, even at work, sometimes for the younger first gens, they're like, I don't see a problem. Not that there's no racism, but I'm not facing necessarily the same barriers.
00:13:53
Speaker
And then the older immigrants, again, are burdened with all of the barriers that they've had to face. But what I find fascinating is that as you get higher up in terms of leadership, then that's where pretty much the representation
00:14:10
Speaker
ends or at least it means very, very drastically. And I think that's where it almost gets confusing to first gen because they might have had it, not always. Again, it depends on where they grew up, the background, the neighborhood, et cetera.
00:14:26
Speaker
there's this confusion almost like, but I was born here, right? So I shouldn't have to suffer the same thing. So I don't know how you've navigated that space with any clients. Cause I find that's just my observation from the sideline. I, you know, that phenomenon, you know, I've pointed at the pale pyramid, right? When you walk into an organization there's diversity at the entry level positions. There's diversity at the customer service level.
00:14:56
Speaker
But as you mentioned, as you go further up in the organization, there are less and less Black bodies, less and less people of diverse backgrounds. And certainly when you get to the pinnacle, if you manage to get to the pinnacle, it might just be you. And so I talked to a lot of career-driven individuals who are climbing that ladder. I tell them, you have to reach outside of your organization. You have to look into
00:15:25
Speaker
Black associations to find other individuals because they're not going to be in your company, they're not going to, they might not be in your same profession, but trust me, they're going through the same thing, right? And so if we are able to get involved in different organizations in our community, different associations,
00:15:48
Speaker
of, you know, Black leaders or even people who are doing community work because there are a lot of leaders doing community work, right? We all find a lot of camaraderie.
00:15:58
Speaker
and we'll be able to share some of those stories and share tips and find ways to survive together. Yes. And that maybe as we kind of bring this conversation together, can we talk a little bit about Black leadership in white spaces, right? So that little top of the pyramid.
00:16:22
Speaker
And how, again, it can be isolating. You're often you've never had a black boss. You're probably the only black person. You're dealing with microaggressions from the top and the bottom. How do we navigate that space? It's really important. And here's a little plug for my profession. It's really important to, I think, therapy and finding a therapist who looks like you.
00:16:50
Speaker
is really, really important because you are going to have resentments on the job. You are going to feel gas lit on the job. And not just feel, you are going to be gas lit big time. Exactly. A lot of people are facing this black cliff situation where they hire you. Can you describe that? Yeah, it's where black individuals are hired for these monumental roles.
00:17:20
Speaker
right? But they are given this impossible task to navigate. And then when individuals are unable to deliver, there is this, oh, see, they couldn't do it. And they're kind of set up to fail. Exactly. From the start. Exactly. Right. And so it's really important to have a space where you can unpack that. Right.
Self-Care and Community as Resistance
00:17:48
Speaker
But again,
00:17:49
Speaker
finding colleagues who are not necessarily in your organization, finding someone where you can, because of the gaslighting, right? We need to be able to find someone to say, that happened to you too? Yes. And I'm not crazy. It's not in your head, but I'm facing the same thing. Exactly. And strategize together. Exactly. And the other thing that I will say to some of my clients who find themselves in this space is
00:18:19
Speaker
You know, there's this idea about quiet quitting and not pushing and giving your all. Because of all that we have to face in this country, we tend to push and we're going to prove that Black individuals can do the thing. And I often say, you are going to prove and prove and prove
00:18:40
Speaker
yourself out of your mental wellness. At what cost? Right? Yes. And is that cost worth it, especially because who pays if it's not your family? Exactly. Exactly. So how can we take care of ourselves in the midst of all of that? You have to go to work and you have to do the thing and you're pushing for entrepreneurship and all these wonderful things. But please remember the ancestral wisdom, community, taking care of yourself,
00:19:13
Speaker
Investing in joy. Yes. And joy is resistance, right? Because I think everybody's expecting us to have that sob story, the trauma porn, as some have called it. It's that being defiant, not just, I'm going to prove myself, I'm going to do more and more and more, but it's that, no, I'm going to fill my cup. I'm going to be joyful. So what are some of the ways that we can do it? And I know therapy is important, even for me personally.
00:19:35
Speaker
Moving your body.
00:19:40
Speaker
Um, one of the things that I did in choosing a therapist was like, I don't want to have to explain racism to my therapist. I just want to be able to say they said X and you get it. Yeah. So what are some of the ways that we can focus on building the wellness cup? Because I think we're.
00:20:00
Speaker
especially for Black people and Black women, we're so used to being the strong Black woman, doing, doing, doing, and having so much piled on us and us taking so much on. So how do we make sure that we're filling our cups? I say, you know, if we took the opportunity to look back at, you know, where we're from originally,
00:20:23
Speaker
because we are people of struggle, because just of how the world is the world system, right? So even in our- An anti-Black racism, unfortunately, is universal. It's universal. Right. But our people have found ways to thrive. And when I look at our histories, I have found wonderful survival mechanisms in dance. Yes. And music. Yes. And our meals- Community. Community, exactly.
00:20:53
Speaker
When we get together over a part of whatever the meal is, we turn some music up, there is joy for days, right? Connecting with the children, regaling the stories of our youth, the folklore, right? All of those pieces, if we look to our heritage, right? There's some really great lessons there about how to take care of ourselves and if we
00:21:22
Speaker
expand our hands and hold on to each other.
Supporting Black Men's Mental Health
00:21:26
Speaker
We're going to get there.
00:21:27
Speaker
Our unity is literally our strength, right? Like without being cliche, it's really what helps us pull through. Maybe one of the last things I wanted us to talk about is around, you know, coming back to Black men and Black male mental health. Because I think as women in general and as Black women, we always know how to find community, create community where it isn't there, right?
00:21:53
Speaker
So how can we better support our Black men to take better care of their mental health? Because it's almost a double whammy. There's a lot that's stacked against them. And then just them being men and then them as Black men, it might not be as intuitive to either seek therapy or even open up in community. It's challenging. It really is.
00:22:22
Speaker
We have to encourage them to start talking in some way. And for men, as you mentioned, we are so great at creating community. Men tend to do things together, right? And it creates that bond. So whether that's some kind of sporting event or they go fishing or they go for a drive or they go to the car show, whatever that thing is, men tend to do things together and that creates that bond. And that is often the space where sometimes when there's a lull in the conversation, there can be a little bit of
00:22:51
Speaker
inserting some of those pieces. So we have to encourage the creating of those spaces. If you are coupled with a black man, you know, in the quiet moments, ask the question, right? Just really check in. Men are not usually willing to
00:23:12
Speaker
just come out and say, this is what's going on. And they won't say I'm struggling or I'm scared or I'm, you know, so we have to read kind of in between the lines. Right. And be creative and then, you know, meet them where they're at. I think there's an element where they are. But also, too, if you again, if you are in a relationship with a black man, offering softness,
00:23:36
Speaker
I think is really, really crucial. We live in such a world. Elaborate on that, because that sounds so interesting. Can you elaborate a little bit on us? Yeah, of course. Of course. We're always having to be hard in our world just to survive. And they have to be hard. They need a space where they feel like they don't need to be hard all the time, or they're not receiving that harshness. And so if they come home, so to speak,
00:24:07
Speaker
they're meeting, uh, harshness, the harsh tone, the, the, the arguments, the frustration, then they're going to get their back up and they're unlikely to unpack with us. Right. But even open up on what was out there, like the day that they really, exactly, exactly. So even though as women, we have our own frustration, if we are able to provide a soft space, if we are able to provide, you know,
00:24:38
Speaker
a space where someone can rub their heads and just say, you know, what's going on? Right? Then they are more willing to share the fears that they have, the worries that they have, but they do need
00:24:54
Speaker
That, that, that, because when, where else do our black men have a soft space? That is so true. Like, Oh my gosh. Like now, now I'm like, Oh shoot, homework. But there are people too, and they need it. And that soft space doesn't have to be public. It can be at nighttime just before you fall asleep. It can be, you know, late at night when you're, you know, cleaning up the kitchen, when the kids are in bed, whatever it is.
00:25:24
Speaker
But you know, really just a quiet check-in. Yes. Right? How is it really going? That box that you are struggling with, how's that going? Right? And you know, now that you're saying it, like even to our children, like I think we...
00:25:40
Speaker
Black mothers, right? You got to be hard and harsh because the world is hard and harsh. But being able to also offer because the world is not always as soft for our children either, right? And so being able to offer that place where they can be just nurtured and be is so important.
Roxanne's Services and Future Topics
00:26:00
Speaker
Yes, yes. And the world doesn't expect us to be soft.
00:26:03
Speaker
No, it doesn't. The world expects us to live up to that story. You can take more and more and more on. Exactly. So where can folks find you? Because this conversation is great. We have to have a part two, but where can folks find you? People can find me on the internet at www.fansaspsychotherapy.org.
00:26:26
Speaker
I am on Facebook and Instagram at friends of psychotherapy. And you can just also search my name on LinkedIn. I am all over these interwebs. Nice. Nice. And you serve clients across Canada. So I imagine you do also take on virtual clients. Yes. So I see clients virtually. We are working on a brick and mortar space.
00:26:50
Speaker
in the Toronto area, but I do have a team. There's currently myself and five other clinicians and we see people, we see a lot of black clients, but we also see clients of different ethnicity as well. And we support all kinds of mental health issues, anxiety, depression, stress, burnout, you name it. We support it.
00:27:12
Speaker
Nice. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed having you on. I think we also need to have a Black businesswoman conversation. Here we go. Yeah, because again, what is it like to set up your business and grow it? So that's a conversation for another time. But yeah, thank you so much for today. And I really look forward to having more conversations with you.