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017: Natural Hair is professional with Nkechi aka Corporate Curly
42 Plays9 months ago
A must-listen conversation with Nkechi aka Corporate Curly, a HR professional and leader and creative behind the blog Corporate Curly on all things Natural hair in the professional workplace. Corporate Curly is a brand that blends natural hair empowerment and sophisticated workwear. Nkechi shared her journey with us and offered some rock solid gems on how to navigate the corporate world as a naturalista. We talked about the CROWN Act and the positive impact it's had on eliminating hair discrimination in the US. If you're ever in need of workwear or natural hair inspo, check out her blog and her instagram page. Of course make sure you like and turn on your notifications so you don't miss the next episode.
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Transcript
Handling Unexpected Comments in Real-Time
00:00:00
Speaker
So how do you navigate? Because I always find for me the comments just come from left field and then I'm like a deal with headlights. And you know whether it's someone like you said reaching into your head and touching your hair.
00:00:17
Speaker
How do you navigate that in real time? Because I think for me, I just find that I tend to freeze. And then I can think of 10 things that I could have or should have said in that moment. But I just find it unnerving. And then it's like, wait, did you just, you know, how do you navigate that?
00:00:35
Speaker
Yeah, and honestly, the example that I gave earlier about the co-worker touching my hair, in the moment, I actually didn't say anything. I was to the point that you just mentioned, I was still kicking it back. I would say, like, even in the moment, if you aren't able to come up with the words, like, still,
00:00:49
Speaker
If you feel that you should, which I think you should, anybody should, go back to that person. Let them know how that made you feel, how that came
Introduction to Black Canadian Professionals Podcast
00:00:58
Speaker
up. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Curiously Talks podcast. My name is Brenda Dogbay, and in this podcast, we center Black Canadian professionals and the African diaspora, but of course,
00:01:10
Speaker
anybody and everybody is welcome to follow along. So today I have the pleasure of having Keche on the podcast today and she's also known as Corporate Curly. I've been following you for a while and I'm really excited to have this conversation.
00:01:29
Speaker
especially around natural hair in the workplace. She's the head behind Corporate Curly. I think you've been vlogging for a while, so want to hear everything about you. And maybe we start by you just sharing a little bit about yourself professionally and personally. Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad that we were able to make this work. Anytime I can speak about Corporate Curly and the work, just the Crown Act, like I'm always just honored to.
Origin of Corporate Curly
00:01:59
Speaker
Um, so my name is Nkechi. I started corporate curly back in seven years ago, actually. Yeah. Seven years ago. So I, I'll take it back to kind of like my background in school. So in undergrad, I got my degree in social justice and physical studies. I decided to pursue my master's in HR management. And then from there, I was a part of a rotational program for HR where it's accelerated. You move to different places. And my last rotation, I was living down in Waco, Texas. And I don't know if.
00:02:26
Speaker
Your Canadian audience is familiar with Waco, Texas, but there wasn't a lot going on. We know a little bit about Texas, so... Yeah, Waco has gotten itself on the map for some other things in the past. But, you know, I was down in Waco, and I had a ton of time on my hands, just transitioning into the workplace and, like, not having much to do after work. I was like, what can I dedicate my time to?
00:02:48
Speaker
And so I got to a point in my career where one, you know, I was working full time. I was living in Waco, Texas. I didn't, I actually couldn't find anybody to do my hair. So I was like, you know what? I'm going to wear my hair naturally how it grows out of my hand. I'm going to wear my hair big because why am I battling against what's naturally my own? And so, you know, when I got to that point and when I got to that realization, I was like, okay, I'm going to do this. And I'm also going to share it with the world.
00:03:15
Speaker
And so that's how corporate curly was born. And I just look back at videos that I created and I'm like, wow, it's been quite the journey. So I've
Challenges of Natural Hair in the Workplace
00:03:23
Speaker
been doing corporate curly ever since. From Waco Texas, I moved to California for another job. And now I'm back in Chicago where I'm in the pharmaceutical industry full time as an HR professional.
00:03:33
Speaker
And then I run corporate curly. So, so many questions and I can 100% relate because so I studied in BC, so British Columbia. And I was like, we were like five black people on campus out of probably like 50,000. So I started braiding my hair.
00:03:53
Speaker
That was my side hustle at university because you couldn't find anybody. And if you did, it was like 200 bucks. And I'm like, I'm not spending $200 on hair. So maybe can you share, how was it received? So Waco, Texas, I imagine.
00:04:15
Speaker
just the workplace. And then how did you navigate those conversations? Because there's a lot of curiosity. I'm just being nice by saying curiosity goes beyond curiosity, but around Black women's hair. So how did you navigate that? I mean, at the time, it was so hard for me. It was so hard for me to use my voice to speak up, you know, if something wasn't appropriate. But over time, I felt like I got better at that.
00:04:43
Speaker
because I got to the point where it's just like, okay, if I'm going to embrace my hair, it just comes with the territory, unfortunately. Questions come with you wearing your hair in a state that's unfamiliar to people. Questions, comments, people may even try to attempt to touch your hair. And so I told myself, I'm like, I have to be able to back myself up if something like this happens.
00:05:03
Speaker
One thing that happened around that time, which I was so taken aback by, was that another Black woman, actually, she was admiring my hair, but she literally put her hands in my roots. Like, put her hands... A Black woman? Yes, yeah, but you know... Wow. So, what I've also realized is that it's not even non-Black people who may make comments or make natural hair unfamiliar in the workplace. It's Black people, too.
00:05:31
Speaker
And a lot of times, from what I believe is that we've been told for so many years to get the job or to go into the interview, you have to straighten your hair, you have to pull your hair back. And so when people see it, I think it's even unfamiliar for Black people. I'll just share one quick story. At a company that I worked at, one lady, she probably had maybe 15, 20 more years of experience than I, she mentioned on a really large call, she was like, I didn't get comfortable with wearing my hair in the workplace until I saw KG.
00:06:01
Speaker
And I was like, really? I've only been in the workforce for so long, like, seriously. Like, that showed me that it's not only, you know, people who are non-Black that find it unfamiliar or maybe even fascinating, but it's also some Black people as well.
00:06:18
Speaker
Yeah,
Impact of the Crown Act on Workplace Acceptance
00:06:19
Speaker
no, and that's such a key point that I think we've also been culturalized, internalized, just these ideas that, you know, you have to work twice as hard to be half as good. And that comes with your look too, that you have to assimilate to the max. And so it's always a challenging kind of point. I've been natural since, oh, God.
00:06:47
Speaker
2003 so i went natural i think i did my big top and this is way back when when going natural was not as not just trendy but it was not exactly and and
00:07:02
Speaker
I think from there at some point I know I colored my hair which kind of like treated it and I wanted to cut it again but I think just the it's a lot more acceptable now and I think there with YouTube
00:07:17
Speaker
just videos and there's a lot of ways to get affirmed. But I think that's from kind of like the social side of it. I think in the professional world, it still doesn't feel like it's as acceptable. And I think that's the part that's, I think it's harder to change minds. So in the States, you've got the Crowd Act. How do you think that has helped just protect
00:07:43
Speaker
us being able to show up the way our hair literally grows from our head. Yeah. And so the Crown Act, for those of you who may not be familiar, stands for creating a respectful and open world for natural hair. And it was passed in 2019. California was- Was it only 2019? Mm-hmm. That's recent. I know. Still recent. And so California was the first state to pass it.
00:08:06
Speaker
And I absolutely believe that the Crown Act has helped, one, with creating exposure, visibility. I think with making the conversation more normal about how natural hair is professional, that people can wear their hair in locks and braids and a poof and watch and go naturally, just literally how it grows out of their head. And that is
00:08:29
Speaker
professional, we absolutely have so much more work that we need to do. While progress has been made, it's still something that's not normalized in a lot of workplaces. Even in the United States, I believe only 22 states have passed it. So it's not a federal law quite yet. So we have such a way to go, but I'm just so, I've seen the progress over time and I'm just so proud to see the progress that has been made.
00:08:57
Speaker
you know, in states that have passed it, that means that employers, you know, cannot discriminate against people in the workplace or even kids in school for how their natural state, for their natural hair texture
00:09:11
Speaker
for hairstyles that are typically associated with Black and African-American people. So, you know, while the Crown Act has absolutely made progress and visibility to what we've experienced for so many years, like there's still more work that needs to be done still. That's for sure.
HR's Role in Balancing Corporate and Natural Hairstyles
00:09:27
Speaker
And so you work in HR. So what are some of the, you know, without giving too much, spilling too much of the tea, like what are some of the ways in which
00:09:39
Speaker
HR views, you know, that balance between a corporate look and what's considered corporate professional. And then just us trying to expand that vision so that it does include natural hair, natural hairstyles. And, you know, what's that journey towards us getting it to be normalized? Yeah.
00:10:06
Speaker
I can't speak for other HR professionals, but I can definitely speak for myself. I think on the face of it, like when the HR professionals working at an organization, we got to take a look at our rules and policies. We got to make sure that on face value, that there is no discriminatory language within those policies and those rules. But I think even you have to go a step further by, okay, we have these rules in place, but what's actually happening in practice?
00:10:31
Speaker
Like, you know, are people making hiring decisions based on somebody's appearance? Are they making comments about that? We got to be sure we get that in check. You know, are people basing their promotional opportunities based off of someone and they're here? Like, those are things that we got to check at the door, ASAP. But I even think, like, even further beyond, like, what's written and what actually happens are the conversations that are happening. I had a coworker the other day who was, he commented on my hair.
00:10:59
Speaker
And, you know, when I, and he's a leader, and I think maybe when I had started working years ago, I probably would have been like super annoyed, super short, like super, you know, just pissed off that I've gotten to a point in my career where I, I.
00:11:16
Speaker
look at the intent of the comment or the question. I see if it's malicious or not. If it's malicious, I shut it down. But if not, then I really do engage in the conversation because if I can make this easier for the next Black person who's coming behind me, then I prefer to do that. I prefer to educate. I prefer to ensure that they understand that their comment is inappropriate.
00:11:37
Speaker
I let them know it's inappropriate. And I let them know, hey, maybe a better approach that they can take if they're inquisitive. Because to be honest with you, some people are actually just inquisitive. The fact that I can change my hair up tomorrow. It grew. It grew short. And I can't believe how I look last Thursday. I mean, that's pretty bomb. Her hair is amazing. And I do think that people are naturally inquisitive. I think some people are ignorant. I think some people
00:12:02
Speaker
may have a malicious intent, you just kind of have to understand what their intent is. And I think approach it in that way. No. And that's, that's a really key point because again, I've found that you could also be very defensive to the point where you're, there's missed learning opportunities, right? So you want to balance that out with just understanding where the person is coming from and then trying to navigate that. I think so, but I also, I've just
00:12:32
Speaker
I feel like the work that I do just did my day job. I feel that obligation. I also feel that with the work that I do in corporate curly, I feel that obligation.
00:12:40
Speaker
But I also don't feel like everyone needs to be burdened with that. Like I think if someone doesn't want to go into work and have to answer questions about their hair, I don't feel like they have the obligation to, to be honest with
Embracing Natural Hair at Work
00:12:52
Speaker
you. Right. No fair. I feel like there's always a professional way of going about that. But I also feel like Google is free. Like if somebody has questions, they can go on Google. But myself, like I want to be able to educate and to have the conversation because I feel like that I just
00:13:11
Speaker
So how do you navigate because I always find for me the comments just come from left field and then I'm like a deer with headlights and you know whether it's someone like you said reaching into your head and touching your hair like
00:13:28
Speaker
How do you navigate that in real time? Because I think, for me, I just find that I tend to freeze. And then I can think of 10 things that I could have or should have said in that moment. But I just find it unnerving. And then it's like, wait, did you just do it? I know. So how do you navigate that? Yeah. And honestly, the example that I gave earlier about the coworker touching my hair, in the moment, I actually didn't say anything. I was to the point that you just mentioned, I was so taken aback. And I think I was even more taken aback because she is Black.
00:13:58
Speaker
And I thought I'd get out of everyone who used to be. Really? Us? Somebody else? I understand. But wow. So I was still taking it back. But in that situation, I did go to her after the fact. I went to her after the fact. And I told her, I was really uncomfortable with how you approached me. And I would really appreciate if you don't do that again, actually. Because that's one, we respect professional balance. But also, that's not appropriate to do that to someone.
00:14:26
Speaker
Anyone. Regardless, so I would say like, even in the moment, if you aren't able to come up with the words, like still, if you feel that you should, which I think you should, anybody should, go back to that person, let them know like how that made you feel how that came off. I feel like, like, if
00:14:47
Speaker
If a comment is made in a meeting and the leader is present, I think those should be addressed right then and there, even if the person is able to find the words in the moment. I think it should be addressed because I feel like if people see something that's inappropriately said, especially in a group setting, then they feel like it's okay.
00:15:07
Speaker
No, that's fair. And, and, and I think, again, leaders have such influence in the organization that again helping somebody better understand how they could have reframed something or what they could have done differently that would make people comfortable I think is really key.
00:15:25
Speaker
Um, so maybe switching a little bit just from your own professional, uh, experience, because again, uh, part of this podcast is really giving advice to that's very, again, focused to Black professionals. Um, I think you've, your trajectory has probably been a quick climb and, and, uh, you know, are there any lessons that you could share just from, from your own journey professionally that could inspire someone?
00:15:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think what I would say is that if you, from the lens of hair, if you want to wear your hair in braids and locs and in its natural state, wear your hair exactly how you want to. Because what I've realized is that professional work isn't only defined by how you look on the outside and natural hair should be included in that, but it's also defined by what's on the inside. How do you carry yourself, your knowledge, your background, your experiences,
00:16:25
Speaker
Um, so I would say like where they're here exactly how you want to wear it. What I've also found is that when I'm like putting a front up, I feel like people began to see me more as just me. Like, I don't know. Like I feel like like.
00:16:39
Speaker
in my earlier on in my corporate career, I just felt like I was like putting this front up. I was trying to wear my hair straight all the time and it was poofing up. Like I just stopped trying to fight against who I was. And I got to a point that like, you're going to accept me. Is age a part of it at all? Sorry, I think I spoke over you, but I was asking, do you think that age has anything to do with that?
00:17:10
Speaker
Sorry, I think there's a lag. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you now. Okay, perfect. Can you hear me now? So when you were saying that, again, that you were able to speak up and just kind of be yourself, do you think that that also came with time, with age? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
00:17:38
Speaker
Like if you would have asked me when I first started in my career, like, no, I would, cause I was just trying to figure out like, what is this whole space? Like I, you know, I wanted to blend in. Like I just, I want to blend in with the crowd. But I feel like it's come with age, but I feel like if I could have done things over again, I would have just simply been who I was. Because it's just like at the end of the day, you're going to accept me, either you're going to accept me or not. And if I am myself and.
00:18:08
Speaker
Of course, with a balance, because everybody is going to be their professionals themselves to a degree, you know, like, I think most people aren't exactly. It's work. Absolutely. But like, if I can bring as much of myself into the workplace as I can, I would have
00:18:25
Speaker
and to do that earlier on, if I could do things all over again. And what was that point where you said, cause you talked about like really just trying to blend in and that blending in looks like, you know, straight hair, trying to go as under the radar as possible. So, so what was that aha moment that you had where you're like, you know what, enough with this, you're, you're going to get the full me.
00:18:56
Speaker
Yeah, I would say that aha moment was when I was down in Waco, Texas. So I, that was the point where it's just like, oh, I don't have a hairdresser. I got to wear my hair exactly. All crows out of my head. And I got to figure out this journey because my natural hair journey has absolutely been a journey. And there was a conversation that I had with my manager where he was like, Nikki, because I go by Nikki at work. Because like, Nikki, I feel like you are holding back. Like, I feel like in meetings, you're not necessarily like,
00:19:26
Speaker
contributing how I know you can contribute. And he's just saying like, I just feel like there's something about you that you're holding back. And I was like, Oh, because I am, I absolutely am. And so that was a pivotal point in my career where I told myself is like, I don't want to be my own limiting factor. Like I don't want to limit myself just because I feel like I have to fit in this, this kind of,
00:19:50
Speaker
professional kind of image that I've created in my own head. And that other people I have also told me is the professional image that I carry myself by. And I think with that, of course, I think it's always a journey, but I feel like that was the pivotal moment where I told myself, if I work somewhere and I'm just myself, if you accept me, accept me, great. If you don't, you don't. And I have to make a plan B for finding that organization or finding that employment that's going to embrace who I am.
00:20:21
Speaker
So, so, and that's really, that's really beautiful because again, from that point on, then you just feel like you could just be as opposed to having to put your guard up or down. Um,
Benefits of Natural Hair over Relaxers
00:20:33
Speaker
have you ever, so in your natural hair, have you reached a point where you're like, okay, I just give me the creamy crack. Like, cause natural hair is such work.
00:20:48
Speaker
Oh my gosh, it's such works. Like people who don't have natural hair, they don't know. Like it's such high maintenance, like it really is. And no, I've never gotten to that point because I believe my hair is actually healthier without a relaxer. But I also just
00:21:05
Speaker
love that I have so much versatility in what I'm able to do with my hair. Like if I want to wear it straight, I can wear it straight. Yeah. No, that's true. So then, then where, where do you get your inspiration from? Because again, you, I mean, you, you really do put out amazing looks and, and, you know, is that, that's the YouTube? Like, did you just get comfortable with your hair? Like, how did you kind of find that niche in terms of feeling kind of
00:21:36
Speaker
just owning the looks that are more corporate friendly, I think is the word I'm looking for.
Creating Inspirational Workplace Hairstyles
00:21:42
Speaker
And just how did you hone that skill? I'm excited. So, you know, when I was when I moved back to Chicago, actually, my hairstylist was also my hairstylist in high school. So we're super familiar.
00:21:52
Speaker
Oh, nice. So nice that I got to get back to my roots. So her and I were just having a conversation. I was like, honestly, like, I love wearing my hair natural into work, but I feel like I'm not seeing the inspiration that I would love to see online. And so her and I have this idea where we're just like, OK, well, let's create different inspirational styles. And she was like,
00:22:14
Speaker
creative director, I can do whatever style you want. Let's do it. And so that's how we got to that point. And a little bit of it is me kind of finding different hairstyles on Pinterest, kind of combining different styles, kind of envisioning things. And we make magic together. So it's just been a beautiful day. And we have just some styles that we're going to try out next month. So I'm really excited to learn more inspiration out to different hairstyles.
00:22:43
Speaker
so does she care for your hair or do you do most of that kind of like washing and just maintenance or is it just styling that she does um she does a little bit of both so it's kind of like combination yeah so she does she takes care of my hair while i'm there she styles it and then you know i kind of do the maintenance in between so
00:23:04
Speaker
I try to go ahead and pick them up if I can. And so you got to share some secrets just as we kind of wrap up. We need some hair secrets because as you know, natural hair is work. So what are some of the tips and tricks you've learned along the way? Because anything you can share, magic potions, like anything you can share is welcome.
00:23:28
Speaker
You know what? I always preface it by saying everybody's hair is different and it's a lot of it is trial and error. Like a lot of it is trial and error. A lot of it is a journey. I have been natural for I think it's like 12 or 13 years now and I feel like I've just gotten to the point maybe in the last two years where I'm like, okay, I figured out what works for me. What works for me honestly is really not doing a lot to my hair. Like in between styles, like I really try to get something that's low maintenance, that
00:23:58
Speaker
A lot of times it's a protective style and because I feel like when I'm tugging it on my hair, when I'm brushing it, combing it, that can cause breakage. But I've also kind of taught myself like don't be afraid of putting heat on my hair once in a while or like
00:24:13
Speaker
hair. Because everybody's so anti-feet. And it's like, you know what, my hair is most manageable when it's straight hair, right? And so you got to find one more. Exactly. You have to find what works for your hair. My hair is super coily. So, you know, I can find a style that stretches my hair out, maybe with less heat, but stretches it out.
00:24:38
Speaker
then I feel like that causes less breakage. I always make sure that my hair is moisturized. So I'm moisturizing it a few times a week, keeping my hair on my hair, and then really just finding a style that I can wear in between styles so that I'm not manipulating it too much is really what's working.
00:24:58
Speaker
Which sounds good. And what kind of protective styling do you do? Like, so do you do braid at all? Do you do corners? Do you do wigs? I do a lot of like updos. So like kind of creative updos. I do. Honestly, there's this brand called Nappy Hair Extension where she has beautiful, coarse, textured clippings. And that's where her hair, I know clippings wouldn't work for some people because they wouldn't want to put that tension on their hair. But it's actually really worked for my hair a lot because it's braided up and it's
00:25:26
Speaker
blending with my hair texture because it's coarser. So I love wearing her things a lot. So that's been my thing. I want to dabble into wigs, but I'm still trying to figure out that space. I'm
Corporate Curly's Online Presence
00:25:40
Speaker
not a wig person. I salute everybody. I think it's my forehead. I don't know what it is, but I'm not a wig person. I've tried.
00:25:51
Speaker
But I love your braids. You know, I admire from a distance I've tried, but then that's okay. Exactly. But your braids are so beautiful. I love braids. I just got them when I was in Nigeria.
00:26:03
Speaker
No, I do this. This is my, if I can't find anything else, the main thing too is again, breakage. So you have to not overdo, but listen, you know, you find, like you said, you really figure out what your journey is and then where your comfort zone is. So shameless plug, where can folks find you? Where can folks find you online? This is just your time to kind of share your links and everything.
00:26:28
Speaker
Yeah, so you can find me at my blog, which is corporacurley.org. I'm super excited that I'm expanding my team, so we'll be able to pump out more consistency on my blog, which I'm so excited about. You can also find me on YouTube at corporacurley, and then also on Instagram and TikTok, corpora underscore curley.
00:26:49
Speaker
You can find me there. I'm excited. Just be nice. Good. Good. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been really, really a great conversation. And I like in the vein of you saying you weren't finding
00:27:06
Speaker
inspiration. I think I get a lot of inspiration from you and and I think you're filling that gap big time and it's just amazing again for you to I don't know if you understand how deep the work that you're doing is but it is to encourage younger and older black women to just be themselves show up their authentic full selves. It is it is amazing so thank you so much.
00:27:34
Speaker
Thank you so much for having me. I love this conversation. I'm so glad that we were able to connect, so thank you. Sounds good. Okay, so let's play together.