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002: Quit playing small and go for senior leadership roles with Dr. Yabome Gillpin-Jackson
110 Plays1 year ago
Are you ready for senior leadership? Has everyone around you said you should go for executive and senior leadership roles? Is playing small keeping you from stepping into roles you're already qualified for? What is it like navigating leadership as an under-represented member? I had a great conversation with multi-award winning author and scholar Dr. Yabome Gilpin-Jackson on her career journey, owning leadership spaces as a black woman and advice on leadership.
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Transcript
Racial Assumptions in Professional Settings
00:00:00
Speaker
It was moments such as being a keynote speaker and, you know, being handed something on the assumption that I was there as food services. And the assumption that again, if you were racialized in certain spaces, you only occupied certain roles was certainly clear.
Balancing Career and Motherhood: A Personal Journey
00:00:19
Speaker
So we are here in Ottawa and I'm really excited to talk to you Yabon today about your role, your journey, your juggle as a mom, as a career woman. Really eager to just hear. Maybe let's start from the beginning. What's the beginning for you?
00:00:40
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for having me here. And I think what's the beginning for me in terms of my career journey comes down to, you know, I originally graduated from Simon Fraser University after starting a
00:00:57
Speaker
couple of years in post-secondary in West Africa in Freetown, Sierra Leone. Eventually graduated from Simon Fraser with my undergrad in business, but with a particular concentration on management studies, so management information systems and management organization studies.
00:01:13
Speaker
and then went on to do a specialist MBA in leadership and organization change because I had been increasingly towards the end of my undergrad. I took an organization development course and really I would say fell in love with the possibility of human potential in the workplace.
00:01:34
Speaker
and
Education and Career Development
00:01:35
Speaker
also in community and all that being able to apply the social sciences to real business challenges, organizational challenges, community challenges, to help people get from where they were to where they want to go was really intriguing for me.
00:01:53
Speaker
And so I continued on and really entered the field starting first through my co-op journeys at Simon Fraser focused on working with firms that were in the sort of strategic HR and organization development space. Long and short, what that led to was that I worked in consulting space within that specialized field for the first few years of my career.
00:02:22
Speaker
I remember getting to a point where I was facilitating this strategy conversation with a senior leadership team.
00:02:30
Speaker
And the group was stuck. And I realized that I was out of tools. My group dynamics toolkit felt a bit inadequate for the moment that we were in. And I had always toyed with going back to school. So that was one of the reasons, but a few other factors that led into me returning to school to do a PhD in the field of human and organization systems.
00:02:59
Speaker
So fantastic to do that work. But in particular, I think what happened was when I went to do the PhD, I not only was focused then on organization development, but I brought into human development. I remember how much my global experience being a black woman and African woman in the world began to matter as we talked about research methods and the idea of using your lived experience as research really captured me.
00:03:27
Speaker
And I ended up doing research in topics related to post-conflict, post-traumatic growth, what leadership looks like when people have had significant social trauma directly related to issues such as social justice, social change, equity, diversity, inclusion, conflicts in the world that were grounded in systemic challenges.
00:03:53
Speaker
Yeah, so rich. So why don't we dig a little deeper on you talked about storytelling and you talked about your positioning as a black woman. How
Racial Identity and Personal Growth
00:04:06
Speaker
has that shaped your journey and how has that shaped your experience as well?
00:04:12
Speaker
I mean, it's everything, I think. And I think part of our journey as humans in general is always this oscillation as we grow between our socialized selves and our individualized or differentiated self, as we figure out, who am I in the world as the world sees me? But who am I going to choose to be?
00:04:38
Speaker
in spite of, despite of, and because of how I'm seen in the world. So I think by now the world knows or should know that racial constructs are socially constructed.
00:04:53
Speaker
And how any of us are seen in the world is socially constructed. And so for me, that suddenly was a journey where I grew up and feel really blessed to have grown up in a really strong family environment.
00:05:10
Speaker
I have an amazing sibling group. I have two brothers and five fierce sisters. And so I had and amazing parents that were both leaders in public sector, in their communities, a mother that has worked for women and children's rights. And so I had amazing role models and shoulders to stand on. And I know often in the Black experience, that can be a struggle for role models and representation.
00:05:38
Speaker
So, you know, growing up, you don't think about those things and I didn't think about it that way. But, you know, I, in that context, grew up very much thinking that, you know what, my merit will show for itself. And so while I intellectually understood social constructs and what it might mean for me to be a Black woman in the world, especially in the West,
00:06:05
Speaker
I didn't internalize it until I started having experiences that very much impacted me and had me realize, you know, I might think my merit will show for itself. However, the world sees me within the construct.
00:06:22
Speaker
of my racialized self in addition to whatever else, or whoever else and whatever else I might represent. Let's dig here. Can you share an example of a time where that became very real for you? Because again, a lot of the times we know it in theory, but
00:06:42
Speaker
that first, I don't think we ever get over the feeling. Like, for me, I can say I always thought that, you know, there's the climb. But once I've climbed and not arrived, but once I've reached a certain point, I've established my like my reputation will speak for itself. Yeah, exactly. So so I still find myself surprised almost naively. Like, are we really still going to have this conversation? So I want to hear like maybe share an experience when you
00:07:12
Speaker
It just came face to face and you're like, are you kidding? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and as a quick aside, the surprise that you just described is theoretically our defense against the reality. So there's some research on that and I have colleagues that have written about that. So, you know, this is me saying that's okay too.
00:07:33
Speaker
Because in a lot of ways, exactly. In a lot of ways, it's our coping and survival mechanisms. And I think what's important for black women, African women in the world is realizing that and also looking for our places of thriving so that we're not always in survival mode.
00:07:51
Speaker
So to get back to the question, what were the moments for me, I'm going to answer that personally as well as professionally. So personally, I mentioned my family is from and I certainly identify as being from Sierra Leone, very proud of my Sierra Leonean heritage, grew up in the capital Freetown, which has a strong connection to the black Canadian context.
00:08:15
Speaker
In
Historical Ties: Freetown and Black Canadians
00:08:15
Speaker
terms of Freetown was the location where Nova Scotians, black Nova Scotians who asked to be repatriated to the continent because of hardships and continued oppressions they were experiencing after being part of the black loyalists and otherwise arriving in Nova Scotia
00:08:35
Speaker
decided that they would rather return to the continent and Freetown was, you know, this historical context people can look up, Freetown was where Black Nova Scotians ended up and is one of the founding groups of the city which ended up being a part of the country Sierra Leone and a British colony.
00:08:57
Speaker
And so, you know, we learned a little bit, but, you know, mostly learned sort of, you know, colonial European history, but knew a little bit about what it meant that Sierra Leone had the symbolism of Freetown and the reality of Freetown.
00:09:14
Speaker
I say this because I knew that theoretically, but the impact of being a black person first really in the world, first really struck me when I left Freetown to arrive in Canada in sort of post-conflict, but continue the continued conflict of Sierra Leone. For context, I was born outside of Sierra Leone. I was born in Germany, grew up my first few years in Europe, and then had returned to Sierra Leone with my family to live and to go to school.
00:09:44
Speaker
I had intended to come to Simon Fraser for my masters, but left early because of the conflict. So I arrived, I was arriving as a privately sponsored refugee. My
Experiences with Racial Profiling
00:09:54
Speaker
mother at this time still had, I believe still had her diplomatic service passport, just from public sector and diplomatic sector roles that my father had held. And it didn't matter. It didn't matter. And you're used to this kind of
00:10:13
Speaker
I don't just call it privilege, it's probably shielding. Yeah, with blackness in the sense of feeling targeted. And I would say yes, there's a relative privilege to how we had grown up. I think we all have to contend with, you know, by the time you enter certain spaces, you have relative privilege and
00:10:39
Speaker
your intersectionality matters to how the world will see you. And I think that's what I started contending with, arriving to transit in the US and being held up and being questioned, ultimately missing our flights, ultimately actually having security assigned to us to make sure we do not, in quote, escape into the United States.
00:11:00
Speaker
arrived in Vancouver a day late. And in the shock of that, like trying to make sense of what just happened. Well, and then early on, met a friend from UBC, University of British Columbia, which I know you attended.
00:11:16
Speaker
a black woman that became a good friend and we went shopping for my first Vancouver winter coat. I arrived in the spring and the season was changing. I was starting school in September and I was starting to feel the chill and I was like, okay, let's go shopping.
00:11:35
Speaker
And had that first experience of being followed by security in the mall. And my friend was sort of hitting the roof and I'm going, oh, relax. They're not really following us because of that in my naivete. And then realized in fact that that was the case. So, you know, was questioned about what we were doing and, you know, why we were walking around and spending too long in changing rooms. Of course.
00:11:58
Speaker
So our assumption is someone had assumed we were trying to shoplift and steal something. So there was that. So those personal awakenings started to happen.
Confronting Professional Stereotypes
00:12:08
Speaker
But professionally, I would say it was moments such as being a keynote speaker and
00:12:16
Speaker
you know, being handed something on the assumption that I was there as food services. Now, I want to shout out to our food service workers all around North America. And, you know, no shade, no belittling of that work at all. And the assumption that, again, if you were racialized in certain spaces, you only occupied certain roles was certainly clear.
00:12:45
Speaker
experiences such as being at a hotel and walking into the elevator and the assumption again that I was housekeeping staff.
00:12:58
Speaker
when I was the facilitator for the very group that this person was about to attend. How do you recover from those moments in the moment? Because for me, I mean, unfortunately, it's an experience that I'm very much accustomed to. At the airport, I'm always randomly selected.
00:13:19
Speaker
That's right. And lots of that in my experience, too. So it's like, oh, great, I should buy a lottery ticket if I'm always so randomly directed. But my question is, how do you recover? Because I always find that I am never able to do it in real time. It's like the deer in the headline. And every time, because unfortunately, it happens often enough. And I found again, the higher you go, almost the more often it happens, which for me,
00:13:48
Speaker
that again what you're calling that the self-defense mechanism it still surprises me like really like we're really gonna have this conversation yeah yeah so but how do you recover because i've always found um that it just stuns me and then i'm and then i when i'm in my bed i'm thinking of a million ways i can respond differently
00:14:07
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And that has been true in my experience as well. Coincidentally, I've also had one of those moments at government offices here in Ottawa when I was with another black woman who is senior vice president level, and we were asked for IDs and things like that when other people were walking by and not being asked. So unfortunately, reality all around.
00:14:31
Speaker
How do you recover? It's such a great question. I am definitely thankful and know just from leading conversations in this space, supporting others, coaching others, that I definitely have a significant advantage that comes with coming out of the field of leadership and organization development and having studied group dynamics and interpersonal dynamics and things like that.
00:14:59
Speaker
And having been able to use my scholarship, I definitely identify as a scholar practitioner. But what occurred for me in graduate school that I started mentioning earlier was using my lived experiences research. So I have a couple of papers that have been grounded in sort of the autoethnography of what I call identity interrogation, like the
00:15:26
Speaker
Dial it back because you just took us to school now. Autoethnography, let's break that down for us a little bit. Yeah, so autoethnography is using your lived experience as data when you start to examine a question that's grounded in your social identity and you know you're a member of that group.
00:15:46
Speaker
So I would let's say I'm writing about black women's women experiences and I am a black woman and therefore I use my experiences and start to join all them as field notes. Right. Right. Authoritatively. Correct. Because I think a lot of the time we we have this distance where I'm not the expert. Yeah. I'm just one person and it's certainly I'm sure it's not saying that your experience speaks for all. Absolutely. There's an authority that comes from coming from that standpoint.
00:16:14
Speaker
Yeah, well, absolutely. So the authority of using my standpoint and declaring that standpoint in my research and in my writings and also integrating the rigor of qualitative research because
00:16:30
Speaker
Remember, this is also using the experience of my qualitative research background. And so using all of that, but realizing long and short, I think even in the academy, there is often a preference for empirical research that's objective.
00:16:49
Speaker
There's a whole research, there's a whole debate around, you know, what is knowledge and who forms knowledge and what is considered valid knowledge making. But
Research and Identity Exploration
00:17:01
Speaker
certainly the qualitative research traditions supports using lived experience with the adequate rigor as part of your research. And that's what I meant in terms of ethnography is one of those qualitative research fields and traditions.
00:17:17
Speaker
And how do you then use that to really negotiate it internally, right? Because there's always that tension where you know who you are, you know what you can do, you know what you've done. And then you're in this context where all of that comes down to your block. It comes back to where you're from, where you're from, where you're really from. Yeah.
00:17:43
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think that comes back to your question of how do you recover? And what I meant to go with talking about lived experience is that I now am more able to recognize the pattern that is occurring because I've also spent time in inquiry about it, in writing about it from a research standpoint.
00:18:06
Speaker
And so the steps to figuring out what happened are a bit faster for me. So it's very telling the times that I feel stuck and walk away and go, huh? So for me, then that sort of signals, okay, maybe there was more there and more opportunity for reflection and inquiry on my part.
00:18:28
Speaker
But I think those, again, my background gives me a bit of faster recovery and more in real time. And really the ability to, one of my areas of interest and research as well is transformative learning.
00:18:48
Speaker
And so what I've also done at the intersection of transformative learning and identity, as I wrote about identity interrogation is also about relational connection. How do I help people connect, even though the burden is sometimes on me in these contexts?
00:19:05
Speaker
but connects to what it is that just occurred and move beyond these sort of stranger interactions that are problematic in terms of when you're trying to put people in a box because you see a visible difference or difference of any form and realize that that really this is a human to human interaction. And how do you become aware of the impact of what you might have just asked?
00:19:32
Speaker
and try to move beyond that to form real relationships. So for me, it can be as simple, all that to say can be as simple as deliberately asking the question back. So I was very surprised at how much I realized part of the burden of what occurs is just taking it in, being defensive.
00:19:50
Speaker
maybe answering it, getting angry, and then walking away. And then I thought, okay, why not? So now, you know, in these awkward moments, which I've also spoken about lots, is also just normalizing it by also asking questions back, the same questions back of the individual. And sometimes it's interesting to watch people being surprised.
00:20:11
Speaker
Right. So how do you ask it? Cause I wanted like, so what would you do? Would you say, um, what would you say? Yeah, you know, um, it could be as simple as someone says, where are you from? And I say, um, uh, you know, thank you for Canada. And they go, Oh no, where were you? Where are you really from? Where's your family's from? Uh, at this point I often smile and answer the question and say, Oh yeah, I'm also from Sierra Leone free town. That's where my family is from. That's my ethnic background. Tell me about yours.
00:20:40
Speaker
Oh, I like that. So tell me about yours. I'd be like, Oh, mine. I'm just normal. I'm just from here. Exactly. And I've had the whole range to, Oh yeah, no, I'm just from here. And I'm like, no, no, no. Tell me where your family background is from. Unless I'm speaking to an indigenous colleague.
00:20:57
Speaker
Then I'm reminding folks of you might generationally have had a longer history here, but also being careful with that assumption. There are black Canadians that have generationally been here for hundreds of years and still the present day descendants of those black Canadians get asked, where are you from?
00:21:21
Speaker
So, you know, in one of the papers I wrote, I also put out a call for people to write about the experiences of that question. And a couple stood out to me. One person wrote back saying, you know, it's, I'm paraphrasing, this is not exactly, I can't remember exactly what they said, but long and short mentioning that they were white Canadian and used to be defensive about this.
00:21:49
Speaker
And then, you know, questions, you know, seeing things such as the thread that resulted from my open question reminded them that their family and that it had started to occur to them that their family immigrated here because of economic hardship from Ireland.
00:22:07
Speaker
as during the potato farming has been here a few generations, but they almost never get asked where they're from. And that what had occurred for them was being in community with folks like me and others and realizing how often, you know, you know,
00:22:27
Speaker
for a second generation black Canadians or just visible, visibly different, different than the normative white Canadians get asked that question. So that was one of the examples of and there were a few others of folks with very ethnically diverse backgrounds, very international backgrounds that would be seen through the social constructs of whiteness.
00:22:56
Speaker
where folks were saying, yeah, I have all of this in my background and I almost never get asked this, which underscores who gets us and who doesn't and what that reinforces and what it doesn't. What it normalizes and what is deemed as different.
00:23:15
Speaker
and therefore worthy of inquiry, devoid of relationship. Because I want to be clear, there's also times when there is relationship developed where these questions occur naturally. And I'm more than happy to share my family background. Correct. That's part of the bonding as you're getting someone
00:23:38
Speaker
genuinely better and it's a two-way street and I think it is quite different from that random stranger two-second experience and then their God, right? Yeah, that experience. And then their God and then their God. Yeah, and that's also a common one, right? So yeah, it is about the context of mutuality, of reciprocity, of relationship building. That's the difference.
00:24:03
Speaker
and intention.
Career Achievements and Leadership
00:24:05
Speaker
Both ways. So let's talk a little bit about your work because I think I'm so, I'm enamored. And I think a number of people who've seen sort of your growth, your development and where you actually now play that role. So you're, she's vice president of people.
00:24:27
Speaker
equity and inclusion at Simon Fraser University. And I think that's just amazing, but well-deserved. So not amazing in the, you know, I wouldn't expect it. I think it's actually a very natural next step. Can you share your journey to that role and then some of what you're, you've been in the role probably just about six months or there.
00:24:52
Speaker
So what have you observed and where are you looking to kind of grow that work and that role?
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah. And thank you for all of that. And I'm thrilled to be supporting in post-secondary in a role at this level. I think, you know, picking up on in terms of my journey, I mentioned starting in the consulting space and then moving into public sector and progressively moving through roles such as regional advisor on leadership and organization development.
00:25:25
Speaker
to managing consultants in the space of leadership and organization development and organization change in healthcare. So building an internal practice to support all things leadership and organization development and change within the healthcare system in British Columbia, holding a number of regional lead roles for this sector in BC.
00:25:48
Speaker
And then moving sort of to senior leader roles in terms of director, executive director, and being in a chief people officer role for people in culture before taking on this role in post-secondary.
00:26:03
Speaker
So also all public sector, so health care, Crown Corporation, and then now post-secondary. So basically, once I moved out of consulting space, and I actually, in a quick bridge there, worked at Simon Fraser University for two years in what would now be considered executive education, and then moved into public sector. And I pretty much have stayed in the public sector space up until now.
00:26:29
Speaker
I think that journey, career-wise, has been delightful. I have enjoyed the increased complexity and have leaned into it, as I mentioned, really identifies being a scholar practitioner. So while I continued to work professionally in post-secondary in this space, I also continued to write and research and engage with colleagues in partnerships
00:26:56
Speaker
to advance my scholarship in the space, and have also taught alongside as sessional or adjunct faculty, including at Simon Fraser University, but also sessional at Concordia University or guest lecturing in the US where I went to school for my doctoral studies.
00:27:18
Speaker
So I really have stayed engaged in the field professionally and in a scholarly way as well. I think that's important because both have fed each other. Right. And have fed each other significantly in terms of I'm learning about leadership. I'm teaching leadership and I'm practicing leadership. Exactly.
00:27:42
Speaker
to learn and be almost like in a way that is a cyclical way that feeds itself. Exactly. And I say that because I often encourage folks thinking about career progression that you know you must do what you love and you must also think about growth horizontally.
00:28:04
Speaker
So for a long time, and this comes to what we were talking about in terms of, you know, just relying on my merits for progression. For a long time, I was sort of, you know, stuck in that middle tier of sort of early management, middle management. But then that sandwich right there, not yet in the senior leader. Yeah. Senior leader.
00:28:32
Speaker
Right. And not part of that senior leader decision making realm quite yet, although very influential to it. And I say to folks, really the pivot for me, and I know there's also a pinch point here for being a black woman and an African woman in the world, is the whole narrative of needing to be twice as good.
00:28:54
Speaker
and needing to have done so much more to be visible, you know, that whole thing about visible invisibility. But, you know, there was a couple of things. There was a mentor, a senior colleague, you know, who I would definitely say has been an ally to me, who I remember. And I remember being really annoyed when she started saying, you know, you need to push a little harder. We need to make sure you're more visible. I remember looking at her going,
00:29:24
Speaker
How much more visible can I get? Exactly. And I say this with all humility at that point, looking at my credentials, I was well-credentialed, probably more credentialed than a lot of my colleagues.
00:29:41
Speaker
I had done in my view, and I'm also in the space of leadership, so I know some of the right things to do. Right? You know, in terms of showing interest, joining committees, doing... Right.
00:29:57
Speaker
Right. And I remember, and now we've talked about this, it was partly their recognition, in fact, of some of the systemic barriers occurring consciously. Correct. Correct.
00:30:16
Speaker
Correct. And their recognition that those things were beginning to occur consciously and unconsciously and their commitments to nudge me forward, both gently and directly. So that was one thing. The other thing is I remember sitting on a panel.
00:30:34
Speaker
of senior women leaders in healthcare and finishing the conversation and somebody coming up to me after saying that was amazing. Thank you so much. And why are you still in the role you're in and not in more senior leadership?
00:30:57
Speaker
I remember driving home that day and actually thinking, what I actually was thinking was, have I really become that black woman who is overqualified and underutilized in the role? Is that what that meant? Well, the funny thing Brenda is, and for me, again, remember my mindset was you're merit social for yourself.
00:31:21
Speaker
Shook it off. Oh, whatever. I'm having fun in my career. I'm even doing the panels. I'm speaking. I'm fulfilled. I'm enjoying my work and I'm also teaching and I was doing a ton of community, both pro bono and consultancy work. Because since I came out of consulting, lots of people had continued to engage me in that way. And so I was enjoying my career.
00:31:45
Speaker
So I kind of shook it up. The strange thing is that that then happened multiple times and came from very senior people, people I respected or would have seen as icons in my field. I ended up being in a situation of
00:32:04
Speaker
having one of the icons in my field both in terms of organization development and social change and healthcare come visit us where I was working then in BC and I was their host and co-facilitator and co-moderator and we just had a blast all day and this person looked at me at the end of the day and said
00:32:29
Speaker
You need to get moving. You need to get a mentor. You need to be leading beyond the local context. You need to be leading regionally or in roles that give you broader influence. I see this too much. Do not get stuck.
00:32:47
Speaker
And I was like, what just happened? I traveled to the US, was in a senior community of practice and in a community that just delved deeply into our field in terms of, again, leadership and organization development and systemic challenges. And someone who coincidentally now
00:33:10
Speaker
I was a senior executive in post-secondary on the US side, exactly the same conversation. Asked me if I would have dinner that evening was open meal time and open networking time, would have dinner with them. I sat with them and they were like, here are my observations.
00:33:32
Speaker
You know, when you speak, right. Like when you speak, I hear so much more depth. You speak in with authority, you move a room and I'm having a hard time understanding. Yes, you're doing well, but understanding why you're still at the level of leadership that you're at and not at more senior levels of leadership. And just want to check with you whether those are your aspirations.
00:33:59
Speaker
I have to tell you, I didn't consciously say, you know, I want to be vice president. Not because I'm not ambitious and not because it didn't matter to me to do well. My mindset has always been do well with what I have, maximize, look for the leadership opportunities, do that. And again, my merit will show for it.
00:34:20
Speaker
And, and if, um, and, and, you know, if, if I advance so be it, but it's not like I was, I want to be clear because sometimes these things are heard differently. It's not like I was asking for what I wasn't working to.
00:34:34
Speaker
towards or contributing towards. But I think the point here is that when you are a black woman and or a person from any socially marginalized group, and I want to again emphasize socially marginalized, not not personally, you know, how you identify or how you show up in the world.
00:34:59
Speaker
Um, that, you know, the research is clear. The statistics are clear that there are systemic barriers that get in the way of you being seen in the way that colleagues not from those groups tend to be more easily seen.
00:35:17
Speaker
promoted given access to opportunities that helps with career advancement. And I think my senior colleague mentor I mentioned saw that I wasn't being seen in the way that they thankfully
00:35:33
Speaker
were seeing me. And in the way these three other individuals I've mentioned had seen me, but realized that systemically I may not be seen in that way. And they contributed to widening my lens and allowing me to think about the future career choices I made. And in fact, encouraged me, you know, that one of those individuals when I even wanted to shy away from accepting senior leader roles that I had then competed for
00:36:02
Speaker
You know, was one of the people who said you have to remember not many have access to this, the level that you now potentially have access to and representation matters. So think very carefully about your yes and your no's.
00:36:18
Speaker
They're not just shying away things. So I wonder, because again, you have a network and I'm sure you're very well tapped into other black women, other black leaders. Is this something that's typical? So I want to unpack two things. One
Overqualification and Underutilization in Careers
00:36:34
Speaker
is the constant being.
00:36:39
Speaker
having to be 10 times as qualified just to be considered on the same level as your counterparts who don't come from the same background so there's that on one hand but on the other hand there's also just being told so for you I think it's a really positive that you had multiple different people saying you're more than ready
00:36:58
Speaker
But that is often not the case. That's true. In terms of if anything, I remember a white colleague saying to me that, you know, you should really take your time like 10 years away. And I'm like, I'm not trying to climb prematurely. Yeah. But at the same point, that is not the advice that they had given or they were giving to like the male counterpart. Correct. Similar. Correct. Background.
00:37:28
Speaker
Correct. And I've had that experience too. I'm just wondering what's that juxtaposition between needing to be 10 times as good versus not having people seeing that in you and how do you then for those folks who know that they can do more have probably done more but are still not being seen. How would you kind of describe or even advise in that context?
00:37:56
Speaker
Yeah, you know, I think simplistically, I would I would say three things. I think one is. For your area of passion, interest, your professional area of career development, really, and I started saying this earlier, focus on horizontal growth as much as vertical growth.
00:38:25
Speaker
I think because and remember, that was my experience. So I say this in that context. I say it in that context where I didn't and I know people who say I'm going to target executive leadership or to be president or CEO. And that's not where I started at all.
00:38:42
Speaker
Having said that, I would say that it's actually the ways in which I was horizontally developing myself to take on roles and opportunities for broader influence that actually ultimately led to my vertical progression into more senior leadership roles.
00:39:03
Speaker
Um, so I would say, you know, find that board, you know, starting the nonprofit space, they're always looking for good people that are professionally, um, qualified, you know, work your way into, um, you know, corporate boards, but start by, by getting the board experience, um, you know, maybe going and doing the certifications around that to, to get into corporate type boards.
00:39:27
Speaker
board experience is amazing. It gives you access to that governance and critical decision making when the traditional responsibility really rests with you. And it is true that often
00:39:45
Speaker
not having access to that level of leadership, folks don't understand how much that prepares you for actual senior leader roles in whatever sector. Because you then get to deal with the complexities of working within the context of the communities you're supporting or varying interests, but then having to make decisions within boundaries of
00:40:10
Speaker
financial obligations or whatever the case may be. So it's essential. So for me, it was things like joining boards, supporting community organizing, doing leadership development for different community groups or focusing nonprofits or international development or social change space, was using the skills I had in horizontal growth ways that widened my own perspectives.
00:40:34
Speaker
and build my own leadership bench strength. So that's one. Two is find your supportive community.
Community Support and Professional Growth
00:40:43
Speaker
And supportive community that understands you in the fullness of your identity and intersectionality. So I had that. I mentioned I had that naturally with my family.
00:40:54
Speaker
But I also have an amazing community and specifically I will shout out here my We Will Lead Africa group of three women. We are three, we call ourselves global African women. We met at a conference on organization development, realized we had
00:41:12
Speaker
similarities, as well as vast diversity in our backgrounds and our Black identities, but connected. And that became a space for us to process what just happened, messaging each other, supporting each other, and then having the conversation about how little Black identity and African perspectives are represented in leadership and organization development literature.
00:41:39
Speaker
And then suddenly going, oh, we should do something about that. We're qualified enough to do that. So that led to the We Will Lead Africa initiative and that book series and was something else that expanded the ways in which we all could use our skill sets and contributed to our own career development and progression individually and collectively.
00:42:04
Speaker
So finding that supportive community where you can fully express yourself outside the mainstream. And that also creates developmental opportunities. The third thing is, yes, find that mentor, that career, that coach to help you navigate mainstream structures. In order to advance, you do have to understand how structures in whatever context and profession you're in,
00:42:32
Speaker
work. Right. You gotta know the system. You gotta know the system. The barriers the system has, but you need to understand and know how to work the system. Exactly. And make the system work for you. And make the system work for you and how to be part of a change within that system. Yes. Right.
00:42:49
Speaker
It is not full circle. So before coming back to your SFU experience now, how is that now bringing you to that place where you're now playing a role in the system to influence the system? Yeah.
Leadership in Times of Social Change
00:43:02
Speaker
Well, you know, I accepted this role, as you know, post-Judge Floyd, post-COVID with all the rumblings in terms of not only social movements, but Black Lives Matter and an increased awareness of Black representation.
00:43:17
Speaker
but also in a context where a lot of black women, stateside for sure in post-secondary across in the US, but certainly in Canada, colleagues I know and others were actually opting out of senior leader roles because of the toll. And I want to shout out that that is a valid choice to make. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
00:43:42
Speaker
because of the personal toll it was taking to the emotional labor of representation. So I'm saying yes to any senior leader role as a black woman at this point in history.
00:43:59
Speaker
was what needed to be made with a lot of thoughtfulness. And I certainly did that. There was a lot of reasons that it was important to me to continue to represent, not represent, to do the work that I do at Senior Leader Roles. And not in consulting, not in the ground, but in that
00:44:20
Speaker
in senior leader roles that influence systemic change for equity, diversity and inclusion. But fundamentally, actually, it came down very personally, to be honest, to, you know, whether whether again, it was that chief people officer role or this vice president role. Again, the context is being in senior leadership within systemic structures at this moment in history as a black woman.
00:44:48
Speaker
Yes. I'm going to quote my sister who literally said to me, similar to what the other colleague had said, not everyone has the opportunities to have access at the levels of senior leadership that you're now having. That is a privilege in itself that comes with responsibility. And again, that has a bit of a pinch, like we all don't have to be responsible for our race. That's right.
00:45:16
Speaker
But specifically, she was saying this in the context of us looking at yet another black woman frustrated by systemic pressure and had stepped out from a senior leader role and said, not all of us, I just remember her saying, not all of us can leave. Not all of us can leave. And she said, yeah, boo.
00:45:37
Speaker
You know, if you're not at the table, you are not there to represent issues that matter. She goes, not all of us can opt out. Consider that as you make your decision. And so this is about decision making in general, right? No pressure. And of course it was, it was, yeah, it was also very much a personal career choice.
00:45:59
Speaker
in terms of what I want to continue to do in the world and what matters to me, what influence do I want to have, what do I want to be proud of contributing to in terms of systemic change and progress in equity, diversity and inclusion and organization development in terms of
00:46:20
Speaker
supporting leadership and structural change in post-secondary, in this moment in history and in public sector in general, because I do continue to work in my professional support, my professional board or support others through consultancy. And that's what matters to me right now. You know, devoid of ego, we all have some, but devoid of that, for me, what matters is what contribution do I want to make?
00:46:45
Speaker
for the time that I can, at this moment where I have the access that I have, because surely I will pass the baton, we all do. And certainly not any one of us is going to make the kinds of changes that are needed holistically in this moment in history. And you shouldn't be the one person, you know, it's a group effort. It's generational.
00:47:06
Speaker
global effort and it requires all of us of every social identity to be part of the movement in this moment of history for continued social change and social justice. I stand on many shoulders, well aware of that. And I'm here for it for right now.
00:47:23
Speaker
That's right. Here for it for right now. Yeah. And then I will surely pass the baton. Absolutely. So that's me. So anything else you wanted to share as we round up? This has been really powerful for me. Again, mirroring, you know, seeing a fellow Black female executive and leader. Those are some of the things that have inspired me to keep going because, you know, sometimes like another role, like, aren't you tired? But it's that
00:47:49
Speaker
When I think of my children, when I think of the generation that's coming after us, we need to make as much inroads in the system so that they don't have to start from scratch. And so that's what I wanted to do. Is there anything else you wanted to kind of share, add, round it up?
00:48:05
Speaker
Yeah, that is my hope. My hope is that every one of us in this moment of history will think as many indigenous cultures think that everything we do right now impacts many generations. That's right. That the generations before have impacted what we've inherited and what we do now will impact the generations to come.
00:48:28
Speaker
And that is my hope that as we, especially in our Canadian context here in Turtle Island, contend with the reality of truth and reconciliation and begin to widen our knowledge systems to taking Indigenous ways of knowing, we will take that in collectively and holistically.
00:48:53
Speaker
And remember that everything we do matters for the next generations, seven generations into the future. And do what matters. Personally and professionally, I would say to everybody, you do you. Do you, be careful what you internalize.
00:49:11
Speaker
I say to folks, I am not no good to anyone, including personally, my family. If I'm carrying the kind of weight and load that being in a system and structure that doesn't celebrate a firm or see me in the ways we were describing can cause us to internalize and
00:49:33
Speaker
you know, the persistence, trauma of that. I recognize that well. I speak about that. I write about that. And I would say personally to anyone listening or watching, right? And professionally, be careful what you internalize. Protect yourself so that you can both survive the systems we find ourselves in, but also thrive.
00:49:54
Speaker
and make a difference for those around you, most immediately, those that you're most connected with as your loved ones, but also beyond that for what other black people in the world inherit going forward. That's what I'd say.
00:50:11
Speaker
But thank you so much. Thank you for sharing, for being and for doing. And I think that each and every one of those representation matters. But beyond that, there's the merit that you're bringing. It's not just presence, it's also influence and background that you're backing it up with.
00:50:32
Speaker
Um, so we're really, we're really privileged to hear from you and I wish you all success in this role. Um, and I also hope that you continue to keep pushing because as you push, um, it, it pushes us to also want to push further.