Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
004: Building Black Leaders in the Public Service with Chris Scipio
132 Plays1 year ago
How do you advance your career in the public service? What are some of the barriers and opportunities to career advancement? Beyond mentorship, black professionals need sponsorship and opportunities to move up into leadership and the executive ranks. Chris shares 5 nuggets on how to advance and grow your career. From Canada to Grenada and back, Christopher Scipio Deputy Director of the Federal Black Executive Network BEN-REN shares his journey and lessons he's learned along the way as he advances his own career while creating equitable space through the Black Executive Network, a community for Black Executives in the Federal Public Service.
Recommended
Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
assumes that people are lacking something. Like there's a certain deficiency. Oh, I need to mentor you on how to write a briefing note. I need to mentor you on how to lead, because you don't know how. Black people lead every single day. We lead in our communities, we lead with healthcare, we lead a church. Like when I look at resumes of black talent, I'm always like, I thought I was pretty smart.
00:00:27
Speaker
And then you meet people and you're like, wow. Oh, right. Yeah. Let's get started.
Introduction: Meet Brenda and Chris
00:00:33
Speaker
OK, hello, everybody, and welcome to another episode of the career slay talks podcast. I'm Brenda Doug Bay, also known as the career slay mama. And today I have the privilege of speaking with Chris Scipio, who is deputy director in Canada's public service.
00:00:52
Speaker
specializing in black inclusion, anti-racism, and gender-based analysis plus. An intersectional feminist committed to using his words and his work to dismantle and to collectively contribute to efforts to dismantle systems that oppress individuals and groups due to their race, their gender, their sexual identity, ability, religion, and other identity factors.
Chris's Public Service Journey
00:01:20
Speaker
And since joining the Federal Public Service in 2010, Chris has worked primarily in strategic policy on a wide range of files including change management, justice and security, digital government, and performance reporting. He is also involved in public service renewal efforts through his active participation with the Black Employee Networks, the Anti-Racism Ambassadors Network,
00:01:44
Speaker
and through his current role as deputy director and the secretariat that helps the federal Black executive networks. So outside of his day job, Chris is a father and a past volunteer with Family Services Ottawa and the Canadian Center for Women's Empowerment, Ottawa Community Immigration Settlement Organization, and is presently a board member with the Institute of Public Administration of Canada's National Capital Region,
00:02:13
Speaker
the Great Canadian Theatre Company and the Canadian Black Chamber of Commerce. So Chris is a powerhouse and I used to kind of stalk him online and stalk his tweets online to begin with and then we've now had the opportunity as well to cross paths around the Black Executive Network and so I'm just so excited to have Chris on here and
00:02:38
Speaker
Over to you, Chris, maybe tell us a little bit about your background, your work, and then let's get deeper into it.
Multicultural Roots and Black Identity
00:02:46
Speaker
No, definitely. And thank you so much, Brenda, for having me. And also, I know you follow me on Twitter, but I also follow you on Twitter and on LinkedIn. And I truly appreciate all the advice that you're giving to people on how to be true to themselves while still knowing that they're navigating spaces that aren't always meant for us.
00:03:06
Speaker
Right. We'll talk about that. But yeah, your intro is great. That's who I am. I'm a father, a son, a brother born in Canada to Grenadian parents. So I always tell people that when I was nine years old, my dad decided to move us to Grenada. So I finished elementary school in Grenada, did high school in Grenada, and started college. And in those nine years in Grenada,
00:03:34
Speaker
I learned a whole lot about Black identity and Black pride, right? So, you know, you go to the bank, the bankers are Black, the doctors are Black, the Prime Minister is Black.
00:03:47
Speaker
the person begging you for money is Black, but the person teaches Black, so you get the whole spectrum. Dammit, yeah. Oh, that's fascinating. I didn't know that. So my question is, what was that like? Because you're nine, and nine is pretty, like my oldest son is nine. So it's that I can just see where you already formed an identity. So what did that switch do for you?
00:04:12
Speaker
It instilled in me two things, the importance of hard work, so that even if circumstances are difficult, you work hard so that you can support others and take care of people. And also that everybody just needs an opportunity. So I've always really held that idea of
00:04:33
Speaker
work hard in Black excellence, you know, and anything we're doing is worth doing well, but also the importance of just giving someone a chance, an opportunity. I always saw these women who were just
00:04:47
Speaker
working hard like they might be selling vegetables in the market but their kids were going to the same high school with me and their kids were getting straight A's while I was getting B's and A's right so and they had more than one kid they had like five kids right and all their kids are doing it so you see this sense of like you know they and I don't want to say black women are strong because that this idea of strength it can be used against us but it is true
00:05:18
Speaker
But it is true. So I read this, you know, black women are amazing. Yes. Because they take very little and make a whole lot with it. Always.
00:05:30
Speaker
And I think like that always stayed with me, right? So in the work I do now, you know, people know that champion and advocate and black woman is like the most important thing for me, right? Like I have a team of people I've been able to hire. There's both men and women on my team, but there are more women on my team. You know, when I think about
00:05:52
Speaker
sponsorship, using my voice to amplify things. I'm always thinking about black women, you know, and what they're going through. So I guess, yeah, that that time in Grenada has saved you a lot.
Challenges in Early Canada Days
00:06:05
Speaker
So what was the transition back to Canada, right? And then in terms of school, like, I won't even put words into what was that transition like?
00:06:18
Speaker
So I didn't want to come back. I'll say that first of all, I was enjoying Grenada, okay? That was nice. But the return back was really interesting. Number one, I remember going to the school to meet with the guidance counselors to figure out which grade to put me in, right? Because I had finished high school at Grenada, but I didn't finish my A levels. It's like the British exam. So they didn't, like you can't go to university yet.
00:06:47
Speaker
I'm like, okay, well, fine, but I should go to the last year of high school because I'm already done. And they're like, well, we need to assess you. And it's my, I remember my dad, he asked me a question about the economy and I was like, yeah, well, you know, you know, consumption is this and marginal propensity to spend. And you can see the guidance counselor is being shocked, being like, what is this 18 year old black kid saying, right? Right.
00:07:13
Speaker
And I realized that my dad was intentional. He was like, I'm going to show these people how smart my son is, right? Right. So that was there. So it was.
00:07:22
Speaker
guidance counselors couldn't streamline me. When I was like, I'm going to York University, and they were like, well, what about going to, you know, this- Fucking ball camp or whatever it is that they asked. Exactly. And I was like, no, I was like, no, I want to go to law school. This is what I'm going to do. I want to say these subjects. This is my GPA. And, you know, and that idea of knowing your sense of self-worth is so important. Because I had, when I came back to Canada,
00:07:52
Speaker
I'm in high school and I don't want to be a hater on people, but I feel that a lot of the black men or black boys in the school with me felt this idea of like they were living this stereotype, right? So they were always old playing sports, being really loud in the cafeteria. Not everything but being studious, right? And I came from Grenada where to be black is to be studious.
00:08:21
Speaker
All my teachers are black. The professors in the universities in Grenada are black. The prime minister is black. So to me, this idea of sounding white or acting white, I don't even make sense. I came from
00:08:38
Speaker
No, like you put on your uniform school starts at 745 you do your subjects. You are up all night doing homework, and you're getting straight A's because you get ranked in class right so it's a whole different thing and I had a cousin.
00:08:55
Speaker
And unfortunately, he's born in Canada, so been streamlined a lot. And his experiences in high school were completely opposite to mine. He was suspended. He dropped out. He had to find himself later.
00:09:12
Speaker
it's it's important I think as Black people whether we're in school or in our career is to own our narrative and to define who we are by us for us because my cousin was defined by the teachers by the school as oh he's this Black kid single parent home he's a trainer but my cousin was so smart he just
00:09:37
Speaker
wasn't in the right environment to tap into that knowledge right that he had and putting people in the right spaces so that they can excel you know so stuff like making sure people are equipped with the right resources is something that's so important to me as a deputy director and as a manager is making sure that my team knows that okay
00:09:57
Speaker
What do you need to succeed?
Early Public Service: Underrepresentation Issues
00:10:00
Speaker
I'm going to give you what you need. It may not be what I need to succeed, but if that's what you need, then I'm going to create that enabling environment. Right. Right. And on that, I mean, kind of segueing into some of the work that you are doing, like, you know, we're, we're working in that black leaders and black leadership space.
00:10:19
Speaker
Let's talk about exactly so the pipeline and how Black youth kind of where they start from and how they make it through the system so that they can grow into leaders and some of the challenges we're seeing in terms of building Black leaders. That's a good question. It's a loaded question. So I will focus on the public service, which is where I work, right? Part of it is
00:10:48
Speaker
you sometimes have to see yourself in it to imagine it, right? And I'm the first person in my family to work in a public service in Canada. And Grenada, I have an uncle who made it to deputy minister level, right? So again, I know Black excellence from Grenada. Yeah, and you've seen it, which probably also influenced your views. And I'm similar. So my dad is a retired chief economist in the Kenyan government.
00:11:17
Speaker
And so grew up seeing public service as something honorable. I don't think I necessarily saw myself doing it just because again, they were paid so badly. And there was a lot of corruption, but my dad got to the highest level before it turns political. And so as chief economist, you'd be the equivalent of chief statistician that we have here. And for me, again, seeing that shaped in a big way what I could thought was possible.
00:11:47
Speaker
But not all, like, let me not even say not all, very few Black youth in Canada are getting that, right? That's the thing, right? So, you know, I got hired as a student. It feels like the only Blacks, I started off in Justice Canada. And I was in a sector that probably had less than five Black people.
00:12:12
Speaker
There was more than 100 people in the sector. I know that maybe 150. Wow. Right. We're all pretty junior. And so I think part of the issue is you're you're always a lonely only. So like you're a student, you get into government right as a student and
00:12:31
Speaker
Your experiences can be so different depending on the files you get as a student, if you're making photocopies, if you're doing data entry, or if you're actually doing real work. I was lucky. I worked on public legal education and information, so access to justice.
00:12:50
Speaker
and they had a big conference that was coming up when I got hired. So I actually got to do briefing papers and discussion documents and real content. They had colleagues, they weren't black because there was no other black students, but and they were just doing data entry and they hated the experience. But what I want to go with this is so you know you start off as a student then the term ends and you're like hoping to be bridged
00:13:20
Speaker
And the team I'm on was like, well, we don't have any money to bridge you. And being the first person in my family in the public service, I don't have an uncle or an aunt to say so. Well, I know somebody who knows someone. But what does bridging mean? How do I get a job? Right. And I'm seeing all these other university students
00:13:44
Speaker
not worried at all, because your dad used to work in the department. So therefore, even before that student started, all the other executives were like, so much those kids here now, we got them. Yeah. And you see that and you're like, oh, ain't nobody got me. So so that's part of the issue. The other part
00:14:08
Speaker
is there's always, like not being allowed to shine. And yes, you know, you're a student, you're a junior, there's a hierarchy in how work goes, right? Like, you know, you know that. But even within that, never being treated like you're, like you have value to bring, not being allowed to lead on the file. So even now you have me thinking, how did I treat the students I've worked with in the past? Like, what did I, what opportunities did I afford them? But these are really key points that you're raising.
00:14:37
Speaker
Yeah, you know, and those are those, you know, those opportunities. And, you know, so you're a part of a team and you're like, OK, I want to be this public servant because, like you said, service, you know, service is the rent you pay for being on this earth. Right. Right. So, you know, we believe in service. We want to give. And you're working really hard. But you're not getting opportunities to move up.
00:15:01
Speaker
If you're new to the public service, you don't know that actually you have to apply for a job to move up. Doing good in your job doesn't get you a promotion. And doing working hard in your corner is not going to get you promoted. That's something I say often because we come from, again, culturally, we tend to be just work your hard, don't start trouble, you know, be in your corner. Somebody will see you and recognize you. No one's coming.
00:15:29
Speaker
and then you're seeing people who are mediocre who are not working half as well but who come in and then get skyrocketed and you're like hello. Well me and you know you're there you probably trained that person
00:15:44
Speaker
they came in and now that you're your boss, you're like, well, like what is going on, right? But that person, they know from their mom or dad or uncle who already works in government that as soon as you get a job, you start applying for the next job because these take two years. Yes.
00:16:02
Speaker
and that it's not a one-page resume in government, it's a 10-page resume because you have to list all the details start to finish. And you don't know this, like actually I'm going to probably date myself but I remember getting bridged and it was a course called how to apply to jobs in a public service. Two-day course offered by the Canada school
00:16:28
Speaker
like those five inch binders, right? I'm talking like sick, like this. But why are they offering this course when you're in government? Wouldn't this have been helpful for us on the outside? If I was outside and trying to get in, right? Because I remember as a student applying for government jobs.
00:16:45
Speaker
and not getting called in and being like, but I have all these qualifications. I did these things only to find out if you don't put, I have experienced briefing senior officials like director generals over the last two years, you get screened out. You do. No one tells you that.
00:17:04
Speaker
And you can only know that from the inside, which then becomes counterproductive.
Systemic Barriers in Public Service
00:17:11
Speaker
So you raise a key point, which I wanted to kind of pick up on in terms of the system, right? And some of what those, the systemic barriers that are there, the different phases, so that the lack of representation just doesn't happen.
00:17:30
Speaker
magically, but that it just, there are key specific barriers all along the path.
00:17:37
Speaker
Yeah, it is by design. So, for instance, within the Federal Public Service, and I'm using data from, I guess, March 2022, at that time, there were 6,717 executives in the public service, right?
00:17:59
Speaker
So that is from your director, EX1, all the way up to your deputy minister, the most senior person. In Canada, we love to talk about equality, especially gender equality. Our minister in 2015 has a gender parity in his cabinet. And people say, why? Because it's 2015. We got gender parity. So within the executive branch,
00:18:25
Speaker
of the public service, we also quote unquote have gender parity. There are approximately 3,500 women who are executives. But you realize that if you dig a little bit deeper and you're like, oh, what type of woman?
00:18:43
Speaker
what race, what age, what disability. You realize, so of the 6,717 executives, only 128 are Black. That's 1.9%.
00:18:57
Speaker
Say that again, so 128 out of almost 7,000. And these are not Black women, these are Black people, period. Period, right? 1.9%. Black people are 4.3% of Canada's population and at least 4% of the public service workforce.
00:19:24
Speaker
Right? But going back to the gender part, so of the 3,500 women who are executives, there are about 70 Black women. So do we have gender parity in Canada? But if you're a white, cisgendered, able-bodied woman, then yeah, we do. But if you're a Black woman,
00:19:48
Speaker
if you're a Black queer, if you're a Black woman with disabilities, we don't have any of that. And this is where the systemic issues come up because organizations can talk about we want to diversify our leadership cohort, we have talent development initiatives. So if they design these programs without looking into the different experiences, we're going to have problems. So, you know, following, you know,
00:20:18
Speaker
the murder of George Floyd in 2020, you know, organizations like, oh, we care about Black lives, we want to sponsor, we want to mentorship and all these things. But number one, mentorship.
00:20:31
Speaker
assumes that people are lacking something. Like there's a certain deficiency. Oh, I need to mentor you on how to write a brief note. I need to mentor you on how to lead because you don't know how. Black people lead every single day. We lead in our communities, we lead a church. Like when I look at resumes of a black talent, I'm always like, I thought I was pretty smart.
00:20:57
Speaker
And then you meet people and you're like, wow. Oh, right. Yeah. Well, you know, those things happen and we just need opportunities and some of us. Right. But we also see. Oh, OK, we're going to promote all these new black women to executives and we're going to give them the hardest file, the anti-racism file. So you have a brand new executive on a file that is super complex.
00:21:25
Speaker
that can never be solved. That can never be solved. It's like world peace, world hunger, right?
00:21:33
Speaker
Well, actually, you know what, they could be solved if we had structural change, if we complete. So let's say that as long as the system is unwilling to change, it is not exactly so. So it's a new one. Right. So so you have these new executives. It's like, oh, great. You know, like just 10 new black executives, we're all happy. Right. Yeah. Well, what are the executives on?
00:21:59
Speaker
anti-racism, okay. So they have set up a brand new team. They meet their minister nearly every day, sometimes the minister because these things are in the news, right? Like you're trying to address racism while you're being sued for racism. So these are like really complex files, right? And also you're trying to fix a system that harms you.
00:22:27
Speaker
And that's what we should talk about also, the mental health challenges, the class executives, right? But to go back to this, so, you know, you're given this really hard file and you're set up to fail because in two years, attention moves on and like, Oh, why haven't you fixed the problem yet? So then you're in this executive and you're working these late hours.
00:22:51
Speaker
senior white colleagues moving up because, you know what? Being the new director for, I don't know, stakeholder engagement, when you have a team of 100 people and other directors and DGs and a whole bunch of people, it's a lot easier. You're gonna deliver. To deliver on that, that when you're the lonely only on this file, like,
00:23:18
Speaker
This is something that I can't wait to post this. But I'm also like, oh, my God, the thing, too, for me, I remember a couple of a couple of a year or so ago where.
00:23:32
Speaker
It's not just work, right? And a lot of us do shy away from this anti-racism work because it's so personal. And like my kids are coming home and saying, you know, someone so asked me what the N word is, right? And then my, you know, my husband's dealing with his own drama at work and whatever. And then
00:23:51
Speaker
I'm going like, I remember once we went out, this was probably just when things opened up with the pandemic and we went out to a restaurant and this woman, like angry racist screamed at us. And it was so much for us to take. Even my kids were like, whoa, right? Like, you know, it happens. But when it happens so blatantly to you and everybody else just turned away and just ignored it. Like no one called it out. We called it out for ourselves. And then we left. But it's it's not like it's
00:24:19
Speaker
neatly contained right where you you're like okay i'm done dealing with racism at work now, let me just go home and and be. So it's it's it's not it's multifaceted and it's coming at you in multiple areas and with all of that.
00:24:35
Speaker
you're now responsible for delivering on this thing, for your minister, deputy minister, senior management, when your own psychological safety and wellbeing is not that great, neither at work, nor just in life, in society, right? You are so right about that. It is a difficult, difficult place to be in. I've said this on panels, and I read this in my blogs,
Navigating Workplace Racism
00:25:05
Speaker
We are working on files to address harm while being harmed. By those files and by the context. So we're in meetings and we're like, listen.
00:25:19
Speaker
Black people are facing career stagnation in the public service, you know, there's another stack to throw out there for you and I'd love to bring it, bring it, you know, first of all, we are very fortunate as public service, we have very good jobs and like no doubt about that right to pay the benefits.
00:25:37
Speaker
And the new ones, even for folks, because I think the folks who are not, say, in Canada, in North America, right, again, the Canadian Public Service is really and not just the public, like federal. I think the public institutions in general in Canada are fairly well funded compared to other, say, countries. So so these are these are roles of privilege and we don't take any of that for granted. Not at all. It's definitely privileged. But within that, you know, you see
00:26:08
Speaker
Like if you take a hundred thousand dollars as an annual range, right? And so that's like your senior policy advisor. So that's your team lead, your, you know, yeah, like there's other analysts. Senior policy advisor, people in that range.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah, they're not directors yet, but they're still pretty senior, right? Across the public service, about 23% of all public servants make at least $100,000 a year. And then you can break it down by gender. Right. Comes like 21%. Visible minorities, it's like 19%. But Black public servants, 15.8%. So there's like a 7.5% discrepancy. Yes. So what we end up having
00:26:54
Speaker
is we have this Black talent who are committed to serving a country, who oftentimes have multiple master's degrees, or even PhDs, because as Black people, after you had your head down working hard in your corner, and you're not getting promoted, you're like, it must be me, I need another degree. I need another- More school, more competencies. More school, more competencies. Right. As you go, you do that,
00:27:21
Speaker
to come back to be told, I'm intimidated by your resume. I actually had a black woman tell me this, she was told to apply for a job, sent the resume, the director calls her back and was like, I'm intimidated by your resume.
00:27:38
Speaker
Not, oh, this talent would be great for my team. Exactly. Instead. No, I was told, don't put your PhD on your resume in government because managers
00:27:54
Speaker
will be intimidated by you. But the paradox is that, I remember I was doing, you know, I won't name places and names, but long and short of it was that no one was listening to me until I put in that PhD candidate. And then, because I'd send emails and one member was like, oh, who's this person? Until I did that, then it's like, okay, we'll listen to you. So it's these are the kind of things we have to navigate.
00:28:23
Speaker
Right. And that's the system issues, right? How the system is designed because we're told this is a continuous learning, evidence-based. We respect science and knowledge. Right. But a Black person has to always dim their light.
00:28:39
Speaker
but also shine it to prove that you're competent. You got to shine it to prove it, but don't shine too bright because if you shine too bright. Yes, because then now you're overshadowing. Now you're overshadowing, now people are scared, right? So all of these things are constantly happening and what this creates is this
00:28:57
Speaker
internal movie in your mind. I might even call it a monologue because there's multiple people in my mind now that I'm talking to because of all these things we experienced, right? It's a movie. And you're like, you know, well, do I do this? What about that?
00:29:15
Speaker
Am I angry? Did I misinterpret this? And all of these things, right? So for this reason, like the Black Executive Network, which I'm so fortunate to be the deputy director for and lead in the secretariat, our whole goal is to support Black executives. But the focus is on the Black executives. So we're very much an employee resource group, community focused. And one of our big priorities is mental health.
00:29:45
Speaker
Yes. So, that includes, you know, promoting mental health resources to our members so they know that they can get counseling and provide them with black therapists because we know
00:29:59
Speaker
Contrary to what the media tells you, Black people use mental health services. We use it a lot. We do. We seek it out all the time. We may not go to, quote unquote, the therapists and lay down on the couch. Right. We talk to our spiritual people. Yeah. Talk to my barber about what's going on in my life. Oh, yeah, that's probably hair salons and barbershops. That's like therapy right there.
00:30:30
Speaker
We have our friends when we get together with the guys, with the girls on the weekend. We're talking about these things, right? Constantly. Constantly. So it's providing those supports. It's also saying, you know what?
00:30:42
Speaker
We know that you're a leader and you face challenges like all other executives, but you have another challenge. You're the lonely only. You're facing systemic racism. And you're facing the racism both from around you and from folks who report to you too sometimes. Yes, who are mad, like who's this Black person? As a past team lead, I have had some white folk who were not too happy that they had to report to me.
00:31:13
Speaker
And I was like, you know what? Let me see your analysis. And this is why you report to me. Okay. There you go. Like that's why we're missing a whole lot of stuff here. Okay. That's what it is. And do that. So we try to provide, you know, leadership training and again, black centric leadership. So one of the things that I think is really important is
00:31:38
Speaker
Far too often organizations create these equity initiatives that are based on a deficiency or deficit mindset. Oh, you don't know how to do this. We got to teach you this. But the reality is that the system doesn't recognize your leadership the way you do leadership. So it's not that you need to learn.
00:32:00
Speaker
how to lead, it's okay, how can we show our leadership in different ways so that the system is able to recognize it or so that we're not doubting ourselves a lot. So it's just tapping into that and also changing the narrative. Again, that idea of we don't want single narratives. It's like,
00:32:25
Speaker
Black people are leaders, like we lead in so many different ways, right? That's because we work in institutions that celebrate a type of leadership that is very white centric. It doesn't mean that we have a problem, but the problem is the organization and how it defines leadership and what we can do to fix that. And then the other thing I wanted to talk about
00:32:50
Speaker
with our network is community, in a sense of community, right?
Community and Support Among Black Professionals
00:32:55
Speaker
So you would probably recall when the murders happened in Buffalo, right? And as people living, so I'm based here in Ottawa.
00:33:05
Speaker
traditional sea dog open territory, and a lot of black folks live in Toronto, and going to Buffalo, like, that's what people do right. Yeah, we're gonna Buffalo and I'm like, okay, I don't know why but that's the thing right. People taking those buses, going down with a church to shop and people have that so.
00:33:25
Speaker
those murders happened and it really hit home to a lot of us, right? This being post George Floyd, departments knew that they needed to say something. They needed to send a message. But of course, these departments can't help themselves with centering whiteness. So some sent messages and they're like, this stuff that happened in Buffalo, and it's a reminder about what's happening in this community. And it's like, no,
00:33:52
Speaker
Let us focus on what's happening here. This is a Black issue. All houses matter, but this house is burning. My house is burning right now. This house is burning. Let's not talk about how we can put out theoretical fires in a theoretical house that's not on fire right now. There is a health disparity. You can see it, right? Right.
00:34:12
Speaker
So that morning, myself and my colleague were like, Ben, we're just gonna send a message. We're gonna write a message and it's gonna be a message from us to us. And it was very much written from us to us, right? It was like, I know we're hurting. Today we're not okay. And it's okay to not be okay. And today, you know what? You might go into work and you're gonna wanna leave and that's okay.
00:34:39
Speaker
But we wrote it for us and we then had one of our general meetings that same week or the week after. And people were speaking and they're like, you know, we got the message from the organization and we're like, whatever. But then we got your message, Chris.
00:34:54
Speaker
And that message, you held space for me. You made me feel seen. You conveyed how I was feeling the emotions. You conveyed the difficulty that we face of always wondering, am I next to die?
00:35:11
Speaker
Yeah, that grandmother, that's my grandmother, same age, my grandmother goes to church, they take these church like, like, no, these things are real. Yeah. And, and it's, it's so hard, this idea of, we're constantly mourning people we don't know. But we do know them because they're us, right? Yeah. They're our brothers, they remind us and that difficulty. So then you come into work,
00:35:37
Speaker
And having to constantly navigate that and being like, no, it's not business as usual, you know? It can't be. It's a strange, strange thing that we have to navigate, right? And then the other thing we have to navigate in this work, and again, why community is important, is that
00:35:58
Speaker
When we look at the pride movement, the disabilities movement, the gender movement, even though all of these things have a huge debt to pay to Black leaders. For example, pride doesn't happen without Black transgender woman Marsha P. Johnston, right? There's no pride without that. Yet pride has somehow whitewashed and forgotten all about Black people. So Black queers face racism from other queers.
00:36:25
Speaker
Black people with disabilities face racism from other people with disabilities. They're like, oh, well, why do we need a Black employees network? Why do we need a Black executive network? Why can't you just belong to these other groups? Because we've always been part of these other groups. We've always shown up. We've always worked hard. But when we asked you to talk about our needs, you've always forgotten about us.
00:36:48
Speaker
Right. And, you know, it makes me think about the federal black caucus, right? That really said, you know, we are at that forefront of these movements, whether it's the civil rights movements, whether it's the women's march, but when it comes to recalting the, I don't want to call it benefit, but the, you know, the advocacy, the fruits of the advocacy are not,
00:37:15
Speaker
shared and we tend to again suffer the scratches but then at the end of it we don't really we don't benefit from it at all right and and for me in the spaces that I occupy I often ask give me the breakdown because a lot is and I'm glad that there's work happening you know and I'm trying not to talk too specifically about work but I'm glad that there's working work happening around
00:37:40
Speaker
redefining employment equity, redefining that visible minority so that we're getting the full picture. Data has a big role to play in how we understand Black experiences in Canada because for the longest of time, we've been embedded
00:37:56
Speaker
And in my opinion, intentionally, so that we don't know the numbers about Black youth being detained more. And then the ones that come out one way or another through census data, we have. For a lot of the times, there's just this hiding this stuff. I wanted to talk a little bit about just to round things up.
00:38:22
Speaker
some of the amazing work that's been achieved through the Black Executive Network. And we recently had this get together. I think it had been planned from before the pandemic didn't happen and finally happened post pandemic. And I can say that that's probably the most
00:38:45
Speaker
life altering event I've been at in my professional life to be in a room of black directors, director generals, ADMs, and I think DM.
Celebrating Black Joy and Community Events
00:38:59
Speaker
And DM. We don't have a lot, but she was there. She was there and the energy, like I cannot translate
00:39:09
Speaker
the energy, the buzz, the size of relief, and what the validation, the mirroring, like that night, I think for the rest of my life, it sounds like it, you know, I'm not being dramatic, but for the rest of my life, I think I will look back at that. And whenever I'm sitting in that lonely only, I have that place to revisit in my mind of
00:39:35
Speaker
what that night was and and so can we just talk about that because it was just amazing. Talk about that night and uh you know I'm too excited and my camera's okay relax relax we're not done yet.
00:39:52
Speaker
But you know what, so leading up to that, myself and Victoria Simba, so we both lead a secretariat for Benran. And we were like, you know, what should be on the agenda? Like, should we have speakers? Should we have this? And we're like, you know what? Let's celebrate Black joy. That was the intention, Black joy, right? And celebrate, we did. Celebrate, because we often talk about
00:40:19
Speaker
The struggle, right? Like I said, 1.9% of executives. Okay. Career stagnation. All the factors. All the fact, you know, being, not having career advancement at the same pace as your colleagues, even though you start at the same time and you have all the qualifications and all that stuff, right? Yes.
00:40:39
Speaker
and also changing the narrative. You know, people talk about Black excellence, but oftentimes Black excellence has meant, I have to work twice as hard to get half as hard. And sacrifice my mental health, sacrifice my family time and everything else, right? And we're like, that's not what Black excellence means.
00:40:57
Speaker
Black excellence is celebrating black joy. It is defining blackness by us for us. Yes. Right. So if you want to use the the adjective of strong black person, you could use that because strong doesn't mean you don't deserve softness. Yes. The kindness strong means that
00:41:22
Speaker
With all these barriers, I still find ways to pursue very continually. But that doesn't mean give me pain. I don't want pain. No one wants pain. And don't give me undue pain and assume that I somehow handle it better because I'm somehow wired to be OK with pain. Yeah, we don't want that, right? Yeah.
00:41:41
Speaker
Hard work is a different thing. I am not an angry black man. I am passionate. I care. I have a whole lot of empathy because I can't be at a table smiling if people are suffering right next to the table. Our whole idea of that event was we're going to come together
00:42:06
Speaker
And we're going to say thank you. And we're going to celebrate. And it was very casual, right? There was no assigned seating. People mingled. We were also intentional about supporting Black businesses, right? So we went to a restaurant that is, and they had some fried plantain. Personally, I would have liked for a little Kalalu and macaroni pie. Yeah. But
00:42:29
Speaker
Take it how you get it, right? Yes. You know, maybe next year we'll go to an Ethiopian restaurant or a Kenyan restaurant or Nigerian restaurant and get some different. But the idea was just to come together to celebrate and so that people could see each other knowing that they're not the lonely only. And there were a few people at night who came to me and he said, you know what, Chris?
00:42:51
Speaker
I talked to this other executive and they just helped me solve three problems I had because they're like, oh, this happened to me two years ago. This is what I did. Oh, you should talk to this person because they shared your network, right? And this whole idea of each one teach one, you know, you can lean on me. I am here for you. And that is what we're trying to create. And that's what it's all about. It's all about community.
00:43:18
Speaker
Yes, right. It is really, really about the community. I want to see my community flourish. Yeah. And, you know, I didn't give a formal speech at the event, but I did talk to people a little pockets, and my message was the same, you know,
00:43:34
Speaker
Let's flourish. I want to see you smile. I want to make sure that you succeed in your day job, because if the day job is doing well, then you have time to do the other stuff I need you to do, right? I don't want you to advocate and champion a bunch of stuff, and then you're like, hey, I lost my job, and now I got to help you and help more people. I don't want that, right? We want to be healthy. We want the community to be safe, but we also realize that
00:44:00
Speaker
Our community is not monolithic. We are diverse people. So you mentioned, you know, your Kenyan heritage. And I am Grenadian. My son is Grenadian Somali. His mom's from Somalia, right? And we have all of it. So at that meeting, there were people from Haiti, there were people from Congo, like the diversity in us, all the shades, all the beautiful, amazing things. I've heard Nova Scotians, people who've been there 400 years were there, right?
00:44:31
Speaker
ages, everybody, we're all there in the community. And because, you know, when we're at work, people, there's, oh, you're just Black. But no, like, I have unique experiences that- I do, believe it or not. You know, it's different, like, and it's not just in language, it's our understanding of issues, it's the names we use for stuff, like all these different things, right?
00:45:00
Speaker
But yeah, no, like Bedran, it's really about community excellence. And, you know, I tell this to people I meet with, to executives and everyone, you know, there's a few things I always say, but one, Tony Morrison quote that, when you get these good jobs, your real job is to empower other people. So I want to know that, you know, right now we have 128 executives,
00:45:26
Speaker
We should double that to the extent we can. So the people who are ADMs and DGs, they need to hire Black people. And collectors need to hire Black talent. By the same time, you have to support them so they succeed. So don't just hire them because they're Black.
00:45:42
Speaker
hire them, give them the right files. In fact, that's because you're Black does not mean you want to do anti-racism work. To be honest, and not to cut you off, but I think that was probably the other piece of advice that I got very early on in my career where I had a mentor and I just finished my master's. I was doing this research placement and he said to me, he's probably one of
00:46:10
Speaker
three persons of color that I've had as managers and one of three in my whole entire whatever 15, 20 year career. And he said to me, Brenda, don't do gender work just because you're a woman.
00:46:30
Speaker
And he said, don't do whatever, like don't, don't box yourself and don't do exactly. So at that time, we weren't yet talking about EDI, but I think the main thing at that time was, was gender. And so don't box yourself in the gender stuff. And I was in the global health space. So he said, also don't do Africa work because you're African. Do it if you want to. But he said, become the Latin America expert, become the Asia expert. And it was very like, really?
00:46:57
Speaker
It was very pivotal, but what it did for me is it just made me not want to box myself. And it's not to say that we shouldn't operate in this space and in this work, but we should also be the science expert, right? And be the expert on economics or whatever, and allow ourselves to not only be boxed or seen in that space, even though it's valuable work and we do it, and right now that's where we both are, and it's necessary.
00:47:27
Speaker
But there's also opportunities for us to expand beyond that too. That is the thing. And like for me, you know, so like my master's degrees in conflict studies. So peace and conflict resolution.
00:47:40
Speaker
doing anti racism work and equity work isn't because I'm a black man, it is because I am. I have expertise in conflict resolution. Right. Right. And I know we have conflict because of identity. So if my racial identity is not being respected on my gender identity or my physical ability identity is not being respected. Right.
00:48:02
Speaker
I'm not a whole person. My sense of self is going to be affected, but then also how I interact with people in the community is affected. And then how do you fix that? And I learned about skateboarding. So it's doing this work because of, like you said, I am qualified to do this work. Being Black gives me lived experiences. But there's a whole lot of Black people who do not support the work that I do.
00:48:27
Speaker
There are, and part of that is those are the offshoots of that systemic racism, right? We've been also socialized in that system and a lot of people have also internalized that racism in a way that sometimes they're aware of it that they're not.
00:48:47
Speaker
So kind of to bring things together. What would you say to that upcoming black leader like I know that the black executive network works directly with black executives in the federal public service just to be clear.
Advice for Upcoming Black Leaders
00:49:04
Speaker
What do you say to that mid-level or even entry-level aspiring Black professional in Canada? And if you want to make it more specific in the federal public service, but in Canada in general, what advice and encouragement do you have for them? I'll try to keep it short because a lot of advice. I'll try to keep it to five six. Okay. Number one,
00:49:34
Speaker
When in Rome, do like the Romans. So I think as black people, we're humble. I work hard, I don't boast. No, be bossy, okay? Put on Idris Alva and that song with Steph London on it, bossy. I thought you said that, I'm like, wait, did you just say boss? Yes, bossy. And play it often. The reason being,
00:50:00
Speaker
no one is going to champion you morning you're going to champion yourself because we don't have sponsors the way we should and Harvard Business Review did a great article about the importance of sponsorship is no doubt but Black people are less likely to have sponsors so you need to champion yourself.
00:50:20
Speaker
Number two, do not be defined by your job description. Many of us, because of career stagnation, are in jobs that don't allow us to show all our talent. I know people with PhDs who work in call centers as PM1s. So yes, you call entry back. But that person can do all kind of reverse data analysis. They can focus groups.
00:50:48
Speaker
consolidate data and break it down, right? So try to find networks, working groups, other activities you can be on. But I also tell people don't go on the social networks. We're not here to make parties at work and do potlucks. No, be part of the performance reporting working group. The procurement of like stuff outside of your day jobs so that other people can see you. And the reason for that is
00:51:16
Speaker
We have, because of systemic racism, bosses who, while they may not explicitly say racist things to you, by not saying your name in the room, by not giving you recognition, they're undermining your career. So you need to make sure other people see your talent so that they can speak to you and be supportive. Number three,
00:51:44
Speaker
have a network, have a community. It is really important to make connections with your fellow Black colleagues in different parts of the organization so that you can talk to someone and say, you know, this happened to me today.
00:52:01
Speaker
Was this racist or am I losing my mind? And they're gonna be like, and this actually happened with a Black employee that we're part of. Somebody was posting it. And we're like, no sister, that was racist. And this is what I would do. And we all shared with them what we would do. They didn't take the advice, but they knew they weren't delusional. And it was real. So that's important. Number four.
00:52:27
Speaker
Spend time in blackness, like read black fiction, like read Octavia Butler, read Toni Morrison and James Baldwin. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the Davis's book. By all the
00:52:51
Speaker
and how broad our light is, right? We do so much and it's important to shift that narrative. Number five, to paraphrase the amazing Audre Lorde, who by the way is part Grenadian. Her mom, I'm telling you, I counsel for revolutionary blood in self-care.
00:53:14
Speaker
But self-care is not just candles and meditation. It is full on disconnecting, spending time with loved ones. I took vacation December 19th.
00:53:31
Speaker
And this is the first time in my career I have never, I did not check my email at all. My computer has been off. I don't know if it's going to call up one day and it may not work. Cause you know, if you've been off the network for three weeks, password, you don't even know it. But I don't know my work phone broke. I didn't get it fixed. I was like, I'm going to New York because I was like, I need to unplug because we're in this work 150 miles an hour. We're going, we're going, we're going.
00:53:59
Speaker
And we don't take time. You know, and it was a time when my son was like, dad, you're always in these meetings. Dad, you seem really stressed out. And now he doesn't say that anymore. They see, they see us and they see what we're doing and what we're not doing. And I, and I listened to that and now he's like, oh, dad, yeah, you want to play games with me? Sure. And he's like, dad, you're so jokey now. You're fun. And I'm like, yeah. So those things are really important, like to really,
00:54:24
Speaker
So again, take ownership of your career. Don't be defined by a job description. Celebrate Black success, Black celebration. So not just the trauma part, which is real, but talk about the other parts. Build a network and take time to heal, to pause, to recharge. My cup cannot run it over.
00:54:49
Speaker
if it's strained and I can't help you. And if you're not filling it up. I'm not filling mine, right? So all of those things put together.
00:55:00
Speaker
And yeah, and also like, I guess this is 5B, be patient with yourself. Yes. Because you never know how things are going to change, right? One year ago, I was not part of the Black Executive Network. I was doing something else, right? Yeah. And what I've been able to achieve in the last eight months, the impacts, the career achievements, the briefings, the things that I'm doing, it's amazing.
00:55:29
Speaker
And it goes back to what I said earlier about opportunity. Someone said my name in the right room, and they're like, Christopher would be good for this job. I didn't know this job existed. I didn't know this network existed. They then came and was like, Chris, I said your name. They want to interview you. I was like, oh, OK.
00:55:49
Speaker
And it just happened. And so I am now paying it forward, right? I've hired more people. I hired people who were facing career stagnation. I promoted them so that they're at an appropriate level. And it's really this, I just want to see us flourish. Like that is all I want is for people to flourish. And to have an equal opportunity to flourish, right? Which means we have to do things that are,
00:56:17
Speaker
they're not the same, like we will not accord the same. We'll do some things to fix the equity just so we all have a fair chance to flourish. So thank you so much for your time. This has been such an amazing conversation. Where can folks find you? If they're looking to read here, this is the shameless promotion plug for folks who want to read more, folks who want to learn. So again, this podcast is
00:56:47
Speaker
from a Black Canadian-centred perspective, but it's certainly open to other folks. To find me on Twitter, that's S-C-I-P-I-O-C-K.
00:57:03
Speaker
I just started a blog post also on medium.com. So if you go to medium.com and you search at CIPIO-CK, you'll find my posts there. And then I'm on LinkedIn as well, Christopher Cipio. So as you can find me, I tweet about Black inclusion, about gender equity, anti-racism, I share resources, articles. I'm always happy to speak to someone. And I tell people, I could talk to you about a lot of
00:57:33
Speaker
things all year long and not just in February. And Black History doesn't start nor end in February. And I just wanted to say a huge thank you again for your time, for being a part of the Curiously Talks podcast. I am so honored, Brenda, that you called me and invited me to be on this. And again, I want to thank you for what you're doing, Curiously.
00:57:56
Speaker
You are helping a lot of Black towns, especially Black women, take control of their career, find ways to shine their light, find ways to heal and move forward, and that's really important. You're doing stuff to help people flourish, and I am so lucky and blessed that I get to call you a friend and that I can collaborate with you and that I know that you're going to help me with the work that I'm doing and I'm helping you.