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(Gluten) Free To Do What I Want
514 Plays22 days ago
TWØBAYS weren’t the first gluten-free brewers in Australia, but they’ve certainly done their bit when it comes to putting Australian gluten-free beer on the map, not least when their Session Ale was named best GF beer on the planet at last year’s World Beer Cup in the States.
Before achieving that prestigious high, they’d already become the first indie brewer to breach the macro-booze citadel that is the MCG – a move that has opened more doors for them – and set about changing people’s perceptions as to what beers brewed without barley and a range of other malts typically used in brewing can be.
Ahead of their 2025 Free The Taps event, at which some of the country’s best beer venues are hosting TWØBAYS tap takeovers during Coeliac Awareness Week, we joined founder Richard Jeffares and head brewer Kristian Martin at the brewery’s Dromana home.
As well as hearing about Richard’s journey from coeliac diagnosis relatively late in life to brewery owner via tours of GF breweries in the US, we discuss the ethos driving the business, the challenges of brewing with atypical ingredients, and their lofty – yet entirely reasonable – goals for the future.
Before we get to Richard and Kristian, we discuss Labor’s latest election promise to the beer world, Slipstream’s success at this year’s Royal Queensland awards – plus our “Slays Beer” feature on the young brewer behind their green Pandan-Monium beer, the recent openings of Rocky Ridge Duncraig and the new Bracket Brewing, Bright’s move into the heart of Melbourne, the closing of entries for this year’s Australian International Beer Awards and more.
We also celebrate more good beer citizens with the second winner in our "Have You Done A Rallings?" campaign: Russell Steele, from Easy Times Brewing in Brisbane.
Start of segments:
- 15:47 – Richard & Kristian Part 1
- 42.48 – Have You Done A Rallings?
- 46.14 – Richard & Kristian Part 2
Relevant links:
- TWØBAYS' World Beer Cup Gold
- Free The Taps
- Labor Boost Their Election Promise
- Slipstream's Awards Success
- John Nguyen Slays Beer
- Bracket Brewing Are Back
- Rocky Ridge Duncraig Opens
- Bright Buy PAs In Carlton
- Have You Done A Rallings?
- The High Country Hop 2025
To find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.
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Transcript
IBD Conference and Attendee Experience
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Crafty Pint podcast. I'm Will. I'm James and Will, you're not in Kansas anymore. Do you want to ah tell us where you are at this moment in time? Yeah, I'm down in Hobart at the moment for the IBD conference. It's ah been really fun to be down here so far. You get to meet a lot of people. It's It's obviously a little different from Brewcon. It's pitched a bit more show to larger breweries and also distilleries, obviously, but it's been good to catch up with a lot of craft brewers too.
00:00:34
Speaker
So, yeah, it's been a really fun ride so far.
Hurricane Impact on Conference
00:00:38
Speaker
Sadly, some people have left because of the hurricane that's coming to Brisbane, so we'll see what happens there. Yeah, fingers crossed everyone's okay out that way.
00:00:46
Speaker
um Yeah, well, having gone from seeming like we're living in each other's pockets for a couple of weeks, all those recordings, we haven't, we've had like ships in the night recently, with me just getting back from Sydney a few days ago. But um I understand you've been keeping busy, not not just the conference, but sitting down with a few people for future podcast episodes as well.
00:01:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, um let's keep it a secret, maybe, but we're recording a lot of podcasts at the moment.
Podcast Schedule and Guests
00:01:10
Speaker
Got a very full schedule over the next couple of days. A few international guests, some guests from down here. So keep an eye out for them in coming months.
00:01:19
Speaker
And I hear and you and Craig have been there. and Everyone's like, oh you're the podcast guys down there as well. So clearly it's it's getting out there. It's weird. I feel like I've had um more compliments about the podcast and we've only been doing it for, what, well under a year than I ever got in my whole time of writing for the Crafty Pie.
00:01:38
Speaker
Obviously, it's a bit different because I feel like there wasn't very many photos of me out there pre-podcast and a lot of people wouldn't have known my voice. So I think I could sort of... um sort of keep a lower profile had events like this. But now, unfortunately, because of my loud booming voice, it it seems like I'm catching a lot of attention.
00:01:57
Speaker
Your cover is blown, Will. Well, you know, hopefully that's a good thing, is it? Was it all publicity is good publicity? So there we go. um Anyway, back to the the task at hand, I guess a week on from us discussing, i guess, the pretty poorly received initial announcement or initial, a guess, election promised by Labour.
00:02:14
Speaker
And they were back at it again a few days ago, um sort of upping their offering to an extent and and I guess to an extent sort of introducing some of the stuff that have been asked
Beer Excise Rates Debate
00:02:24
Speaker
for. But again, it just feels like ah bit of a bit of bit of a almost half measure, like it's not really potentially going to solve all the problems or a lot of the problems for a lot of people.
00:02:34
Speaker
Yeah, so im freezing the excise rate from going up on on just draft-only beer. So, I mean, we put the the announcement out there on the weekend and and um immediately, and the obviously people who suffer from this are bottle shops.
00:02:48
Speaker
Platinum Liquor, one of the long-standing family-run bottle shops in Sydney, that they just commented, well, I guess we'll go die then, will we? i think And it is a bit like, okay, who is this good for?
00:03:00
Speaker
Probably it's good for pubs. It's good for the big pub lobbies who have been pushing for it for a long time. And it's good for breweries that already have a lot of the market access through pubs, which is...
00:03:13
Speaker
a lot of that's the biggest breweries. Yeah, for sure. we I saw one of the guys from Coastal Brewing Co. um in New South Wales commenting, just going, well, what did what what if you don't really have taps and you're you're all in pack? Like it makes no difference to them. So once again, like it's it feels like, you know, two steps forward, one step back to an extent. Like again, what's the sort of, this you know, the smallest measure we can do to sort of move forward from what we did last week. But again, suppose the positive side of things,
00:03:39
Speaker
it does mean it's being talked about. like and And the amount of media coverage, again, that it's getting is is hopefully says to people, this is a significant issue that you know you need to be focusing on.
00:03:50
Speaker
And I think a lot of people you know in the beer industry are like, well, it sort of buys us time. Like if this happens, it's so it's something, you
Cost of Beer Production and Economic Pressures
00:03:58
Speaker
know? um so Yeah, it's definitely, it's a conversation we're having a lot down here at the moment. Everyone we're talking to does, there is that sense that it is good that this is getting attention. and It feels like this, um the expense of beer and the cost of it now the cost producing it, like it's really cutting through and it's kind of that, that thing that's summing up the cost of living crisis we're still in and we're still feeling like, like it it is such a lightning rod that, um,
00:04:27
Speaker
so many people are aware of and yeah, it it'll be interesting to see what happens next. Obviously, we're not even in an election at the moment or who knows, one might be called by the time this podcast comes out, unlikely. It's looking at probably in April, but a lot more could happen in this place. The the coalition, the opposition, they've pledged to match it, but they haven't really made announcements of their own at the moment. I think they probably will. So it'll interesting to see how it plays out in the campaign. I think, yeah, there's obviously so much attention on it, which is a really good thing.
00:04:59
Speaker
Unfortunately, it's it's not significant change. No, hopefully it becomes a tit for tat week by week up until the election, until eventually the the art you know the indie brewers get out and distillers get everything they could possibly want. um But, you know, even somewhere between where we are now, and that would be, um i think, appreciated, rather than these really sort of carefully measured little steps that might sound good as soundbites for, you know, 7 News, but aren't actually really helping the people that employ most most people in the beer industry in Australia.
00:05:31
Speaker
Yeah, I would hope that craft breweries put a bit of a ban on politicians who aren't making good commitments. You know, don't let them turn up to that brewery for a photo shoot during the election. and ah I don't want to see Albo in Willie the Boatman, I think, until there's like significant good...
00:05:48
Speaker
Proper announcements. I hope that um they don't ah try and make the most of them holding a beer and that kind of thing. because Politicians do love that during an election. They certainly do. um Well, aside from that, we had the Royal Queensland Awards last week.
Award Wins and Young Brewers
00:06:02
Speaker
and Slipstream Brewing with their classic Saison took out the top gong.
00:06:06
Speaker
um I know Mick, one of our writers based up in in Queensland, is a big fan of um you know everything that Slipstream do. So he'll have been pretty chuffed. um But it was kind of good timing for us as well, because Mick had actually been putting together um an article on the um yeah youngest brewer for part of our Slaves Beer series, sort of focusing on the the younger people in the beer industry. Like, I guess, what what the series is all about talking to young in industry. How did they get into beer?
00:06:32
Speaker
What can beer do better to you know bring more young people in? um And yeah, John's the ah the Slipstream's green green beer man. yay Yeah, to it's just very interesting beer. I kind of think of Slipstream and I generally think of the like West Coast and lagers and things like that, quite um very well executed styles that are beers that are kind of two styles. So it was a cool season. Not lurid green beers is made with pandan, you know, but...
00:06:59
Speaker
now he was he It was nice time for us. I know Mick had been working on that for a while. And I guess you know it's almost the the the start of awards season to an extent. um The ABBA's submissions are due to close this Friday. So if you are, especially if you're in the beer writing, beer media, anywhere in that industry, we we sponsored we've been sponsoring the Beer Media Trophy from day one helped put that all together. So if you are writing, commenting, doing anything in the the beer media, whether it's traditional media, online, socials, whatever it might be, make sure you get your entries in by this Friday. It's free to enter for Beer Media.
00:07:33
Speaker
um The more the merrier from from our point of view, because I guess that's why I wanted to start the award in the first place, was to encourage more people to do what we do so that in a few, anytime in the future, you could be the next Will Zeeble at the IBD if you were going, ah know that guy.
00:07:47
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm fortunate I'll get to judge it this year as the previous winner. So I'm really looking forward to that. I've done it once before and it was a really good experience to get to like engage with people's writing or videos or podcasts, things like that in a way I haven't.
00:08:08
Speaker
before Yeah. So if anyone's keen to enter, head to the Melbourne Royal website, look for the Australian International Beer Awards um and off you go. um Now, i you know, we ah again, this year has been a little bit of a choppy one, shall we say, but we had a nice little run of um stories last week that were sort of all...
Brewing Business Relocation and Expansion
00:08:25
Speaker
Positive you know openings or long-awaited openings or reopenings or purchases. So I got to visit one of them on, I think last, I lose track now, last Wednesday or Thursday, popped into Bracket Brewing's new home. Sort of pretty much it's technically Marrickville, but very close to Enmore.
00:08:43
Speaker
They were forced to move due to a pretty hefty rent hike on their original place in Alexandria. Have to say, co-founder and head brewer Mike was looking very, very tired. He's got...
00:08:54
Speaker
He sounded tired when I spoke to him on the phone as well. Yeah, yeah. Thankfully, the sweat had sort of dried off them a little bit by the time we got a couple of photos in front of the brewery. But him and his brewer, Eric, I think they're just of not just trying to fill all the taps, but doing a lot of other stuff around there. But yeah, they seem pretty excited. They had like an an unofficial soft opening the weekend before and got about 70 or 80 people in. They said they lot of interest from locals walking past. It's allowed them to rebrand, you know, and sort of they'll have a better space.
00:09:20
Speaker
ultimately once it's finished so that was pretty cool but then you then spoke to a couple of others that had big weekend or big weekends or big news last week yeah well there was also I mean Guy Sutherland in WA spoke to Rocky Ridge about the opening of their Perth venue which we we spoke about a little bit with Hamish on the podcast um one of our very early episodes last year so that's finally been realized lot of excitement for that unsurprisingly they're very popular brewery in WA and the area they've gone into I think was sort of crying out for that a bit, but it's also near a number of other craft breweries. breze and um after we ran that story, I remember saying to you, i was like, oh, there's going to be a bit of positive news to kick off the podcast with next week. And then all of a sudden, Evan Cray from BrightBrew, the head of sales and brand, sent us through the news that ah they bought a pub in Melbourne.
00:10:10
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, so yeah Prince Alfred PAs, I think back in your day at University of Melbourne, it was a classic student pub. I know not in the early days, a crafty pint. Someone was trying to push it in a crafty direction.
00:10:23
Speaker
um So, yes, I mean, you'll know all about this, but essentially i I remember speaking to Scott Brandon, founder of Bright a while ago. He'd been looking for other venue options for quite some time. like They've obviously built this absolutely incredible venue a regional venue brew pub up in Bright on the on the ovens.
00:10:41
Speaker
um but yeah, they've been looking for a long time and now decided to plonk themselves down pretty much in the heart of Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. No, I've had probably more Palmers in PAs than I have in most other parts of Melbourne. and i used to hang out there a lot ah in the in the university days. But yeah, and Evan was very open as well that this um this isn't the end for them. he He was quite open to say that, you know, we will look for other venues, that they're running that part of the business.
00:11:06
Speaker
really, really well. And obviously that it's a beautiful venue in the high country, but one of its main challenges is the fact that it's about four hours from Melbourne. ah this This literally gives them and a new opportunity.
00:11:19
Speaker
And I like, um it's an interesting approach we are seeing with other breweries like Bodrigui and Pante. not the Punters Club, sorry, the Albion Hotel. um They're keeping, Bright are keeping it as PAs as well. So it will still have its history.
00:11:34
Speaker
It'll still be a student pub. It'll sell all the Bright's beers, but then they'll have, the rooftop will be a bit more Bright's brewery focused. Mm-hmm. That's great. and Excellent. Now, before we get to the main chat this week, um update on our first Bluestone Yeast Brewery of the Month, which was Cypher Brewing from Canberra last week. Will, you had a bit of an update on that one?
00:11:57
Speaker
Yeah, I met, I was fortunate enough
Cultural Significance in Brewing
00:11:59
Speaker
to meet Lucy down here, who's one of the brewers at Cypher. And she told me that um we called the beer Yuna last week, and it's actually Yuma, which is the Ngunnawal word for welcome. So thank you, Lucy, for correcting me on that. And yeah, congrats again for being here.
00:12:15
Speaker
Blue Stones Brewery of the Month. and that I was stoked with it. Lucy was ah really happy with it, but she was also keen to correct me. Of course, I will do that. Giving with one hand, taking with the other. nobody If you want to nominate any other breweries from anywhere in Australia, just jump online to craftypint.com.
00:12:31
Speaker
slash Bluestone. um And I guess our other sort of you know campaign in that theme ah that we're running with Rallings, Have You Done a Rallings? We've got the second round of winners coming up later in the show.
00:12:41
Speaker
um these This is celebrating good beer citizens, people who've yeah gone above and beyond for anyone else in the beer industry or you know just help helped out some ah mates or just doing something really positive.
00:12:52
Speaker
um If you'd like to nominate someone there, again, craftypint.com slash Rallings, which is R-A-L-L-L. I-N-G-S. um Today's main guests, Will.
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah, Two Bays. We um drove down there a couple of weeks ago to catch up with founder of Richard Jeffers and Christian Martin, the head brewer, who's actually down here at IBD at the moment. So I've been ah spending a bit of time with him. Before Two Bays, Christian was head brewer at Mornington Peninsula and he was there during the sale to Tribe as well. We we kind of get into that a little bit at later in the track.
00:13:28
Speaker
um chats I just wanted to make sure people were aware of his brewing history. And yeah, obviously we're in we're about to kick off Free the Taps or rather Two Bays, which is an awesome celebration gluten-free beer.
00:13:41
Speaker
Yeah, that's right. They've got a number of tap
Gluten-Free Beer Innovations and Market Presence
00:13:43
Speaker
takers all over the country um tied in with Celiac Awareness Week. um And yeah, we wanted to get the chat in now because they're still reigning best gluten-free bre brewers in the world after picking up a cold medal at the World Beer Cup in the States last year.
00:13:58
Speaker
um So yeah, it's a really good chat. You know, Richard got into it because he was diagnosed Celiac late in life. We're going to, you know... how they did the research to start the brewery, sort of the the challenges of brewing with non-barley grains. um And their beers like the beers are tasting fantastic. They've got a new beer out this week ahead of Free the Taps as well. We tried it from the tank at the brewery and was, you know, tasting banging. So yeah, really great chat. So yeah, without further ado, because we've had a fair bit to discuss at the start today, and I'm sure you've got things to be doing in Hobart this evening, Will.
00:14:28
Speaker
So um'm before we head off... Yeah, well, if you enjoy the chat, make sure you don't just tell me when you see me. Make sure you like, subscribe and give the feedback online as well so we can we can shoot up those sort of Spotify and Apple charts.
00:14:43
Speaker
But, yeah, enjoy the chat. Cheers. Cheers.
00:14:49
Speaker
Beer music and food lovers, rejoice because tickets are on sale for the 10th annual High Country Hop Festival in Beechworth. Taste fresh hop harvest beers from Australia's best indie brewers, Bridge Road Brewers, Mountain Culture, Range, Wildflower, Love Shack and Kaiju.
00:15:06
Speaker
Plus the High Country's famed local breweries, winemakers, craft distillers and more. See Japanese good time rockers the 5678s in their only not yet sold out Victorian show alongside ARIA winner Kayte and folk legend Darren Hanlon.
00:15:23
Speaker
With an inspired food line up headlined by some of Australia's most inventive chefs and iconic box wars workshops for kids, it's a family friendly day out. An unmissable beer, food and music festival for all.
00:15:36
Speaker
Saturday, March 22nd in High Country Beachworth. Tickets on sale now at thehighcountryhop.com.au. Hosted by Bridge Road Brewers.
00:15:49
Speaker
Richard and Kristen, thanks for joining us. Welcome to Two Bates. Yeah, pleased to be, great for having you guys down here. Yeah, good to be here again. to the craft beer capital of Australia, dare I say. What, Dramana?
00:16:00
Speaker
No, no, no, the Mornington Peninsula. LAUGHTER I just want to throw it out there to be provocative at the start. oh yeah That'll get people tweeting. As if gluten-free is not bad enough. I reckon we should start with last year's big triumph. don't want you to take us back to the World Beer Cup in the States. Anyone that, I guess, isn't aware of it's the biggest beer competition in the world. And um you came up with a gold, which isn't just like a gold medal in many awards. It means your beer is the best in that category on the planet. So how was that?
00:16:29
Speaker
ah From my perspective, it was pretty amazing. mean like We were in in the States to see our suppliers and Christian hadn't been over there. So we were over there for another reason and then suddenly it was the end of the CBC and it was World Beer Cup. I'd actually forgotten about it a little bit, to be honest. And you go in this room, 15,000 people or something sitting around. It's very different to the Avers as well. Suddenly you've got to get up on stage and I'm like, there's a lot of people.
00:16:54
Speaker
And then they kind of went, you know third, second, and then suddenly it was us and we were with all the dedicated gluten-free people and the HBA crew. And it was brilliant. It was pretty good. yeah It was pretty good.
00:17:04
Speaker
Yeah. And we had emotions of must have been pretty, like, we used to taken back or just like, oh, this is actually, you know, When you were making great beer, like, you what went through head at the time? Because it's pretty... I'll hand that over to the man who actually made it. Although there's conjecture about who actually brewed that batch. The big feeling was just being, you know, representing Australia in a way. Like, I would encourage other Australian breweries to enter because I think we'd make some awesome beer. But that was the big feeling for me. It was also great to be able to do it for Richard.
00:17:31
Speaker
I mean, we were we were there for a trip. awesome experience. We've been to Denver, Oakland, Seattle, traveling around already. Plus was going to CBC, which was really important to me.
00:17:42
Speaker
So to be able to do it for him and see the emotions that came with it was awesome. ah But it was just great to do it for Australia as well. And the team. And the team here, I think, like just knowing that you would come back chat to the team and how they all felt and getting the messages was really fantastic. So yeah, it was pretty emotional. I was phoned my wife afterwards, it was pretty emotional, but it it was, i mean, it's surreal really. And you kind of then see who else has won it and you realize, you know, you're in, in and incredible company.
Challenges in Gluten-Free Brewing
00:18:07
Speaker
um And so, you know, the brewers, we knew we knew the guys make great beer.
00:18:12
Speaker
um You know, we found that at the Indies the year before, but we've known it for a while. But actually come up against other and know that you're true to style and all the other things that go on with it was a fantastic experience. And did you get to chat to many of the American gluten-free brewers afterwards and they were like, did they get to try? It must be a fortune. Went out to some bar. HBA turned up. It cost me a fortune. Luckily, they bought me breakfast the next day in return.
00:18:36
Speaker
more so More so leading up to it, we'd actually met other gluten-free brewers. That was part of the experience and that was really rewarding as well. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, do you try and keep a close sort of community on a way? It has been tried. There's a lot of challenges going on in the US right now regarding smaller hospitality businesses, which is essentially what a lot of these gluten-free brewers are. yeah So it has been a challenge.
00:18:58
Speaker
Prior to that, it was COVID. Then we're, you know, a way away. So yeah it has been really challenging. There are definitely people we maintain contact with. but more so suppliers in the industry rather than actual other gluten-free brewers.
00:19:11
Speaker
They were super accommodating when we were there. We found out on the day that we went to visit Buckwild, hours after we left, before we were coming back for beers, that they are actually unfortunately closing down.
00:19:23
Speaker
We met him at lunchtime. We went for a snooze in the afternoon. This was in in San Francisco in Oakland. A snooze because you were just late? Yeah, we arrived at 7 o'clock in the morning, went straight there for lunch, ah met the guy, fantastic, really really engaging, talking the positivities about it. We all agreed to catch up later that night, went for a snooze, woke up at 3, and suddenly there was this thing to the broader gluten-free in a community.
00:19:47
Speaker
Sorry to tell you, but I'm closing in you know a week. and And so we went back that night. The beers were great. You know, it's just such a shame. invested a lot. Fantastic. Gluten-free. The place was packed as well in Oakland where, you know, we went to, obviously had this whole list, the whole trip that Richard had to follow me along to other non-gluten-free breweries as well.
00:20:08
Speaker
We went to a stash of two base cans. we kept it We kept those visits very short. but but but but yeah know we we went to few other breweries that night and it was the busiest brewery in the area by far. We went to, I think, Original Pattern.
00:20:21
Speaker
Yeah, and one with that Aussie guy that was their brewer there. Yeah, an Aussie guy there. but it was by far the busiest brewery in the area as well. So he his main complaint was that in order to to stay busy, he has to meet the prices of barley brewers in the US and that's very much the experience they have here.
00:20:39
Speaker
I'm sure we'll get on to prices later, but we don't feel or haven't felt we have needed to do that in Australia that people understand that there is a pre for premium involved. But you know it's very expensive for them to do that and they lose margin and it has really cost them in the long run, I think, for some of those brewers.
00:20:55
Speaker
um Others seem to be doing quite well or reasonably well. So it was good to see thriving tap rooms were a consistent thing across all the gluten-free breweries we visited. yeah And I mean, compared to you know other barley breweries we visited, I would say they were more thriving in some respects. So that was awesome.
00:21:12
Speaker
Um, it doesn't seem like there's as many gluten free options as restaurants there as well, you know, traveling with Richard. So I think there's little gluten free hubs. They're super important to the, you know, the scenes, particularly in big cities for people to go, if they ask, you know, they do have sea lake disease or trying to avoid gluten.
00:21:26
Speaker
Yeah. So we're quite lucky here in Australia then because my daughter's celiac and so since she was diagnosed 11, 12 years ago, even in that time, you realise how much easier it's been to get gluten-free food and how much greater the understanding is. But it sounds like it's not as aggressive in States. America's actually really terrible.
00:21:44
Speaker
Okay. It's amazing really, but yeah, terrible. From a person trying to find somewhere safe to go and eat and you go to these bars and and they're kind of like... you're really going, well, maybe I'll just not skip this meal here and go and catch it somewhere else. But but then you've got, mean, you know, for me, obviously we found a place in San Francisco. was actually talking to sit-out guy. He's going there shortly this morning saying, I'll tell you where to go because we can get there. The food was good.
00:22:09
Speaker
You could kind of get a beer um and and you just keep going back. So we just went back to the same bar and in Vegas. Sorry, not San Francisco, Vegas. Wow. Every night. got it Spent a fortune. um But it was the only place to go. There was 150 beers for the other guys to drink and I could have three and it was great.
00:22:25
Speaker
um And that's the kind of the how you know the beauty of the gloom-free consumer is that that we're very, very loyal if we find somewhere that's you know good to go to. but um The gluten-free brewers, I mean, i I probably stay in contact with the owners of the breweries quite a bit. um you know we're working on a couple of projects that hopefully might come off and we'll certainly tell Crafty about it when it does. um But, you know it's it's um you know, they are pretty good, but it's tough. You know, the US is no different to over here in the beer world. So, you know, they've been going through some challenges.
00:22:53
Speaker
lot of them are very small and have closed um or really are not commercial. They all try and live and die by their but hospitality offering, which you know we made a decision early on that it was never going to be, the certainly not down a dramatic, the be all and end all.
00:23:07
Speaker
um but you know But, you know, for them, it's really important part of what they do because they can't get the distribution depth that you can get over here as easily. so But they're all good. You know, we're very collegiate.
00:23:19
Speaker
They're probably not as collegiate with themselves, but because I'm not a you know i'm not a competitive threat at all, you know, the Americans are very competitive. Yeah, yeah. So, um you know, so so we share quite a lot and and they were fantastic. From when I started and wanted to...
00:23:33
Speaker
understand how to do things or when AG first came on board, we sent him over there, he brewed with them. um you know with You know, very, very accommodating. Yeah. And in terms of when you got back over here, did the win help you get Session Ale or any of your other beers out a bit further? Was there that sort of cachet? Because we do hear sometimes lines with awards over here, like breweries, ah it so same thing. yeah You win all these are awards and outside the industry. No, like I contacted a large retailer and said, hey, you know we're now the but the world's best gluten-free beer and they kind of said... um Well done.
00:24:02
Speaker
Well done. Congratulations. It's a really nice beer. See you next year in the range review. Maybe you talk about it then. Yeah, yeah. Bring costs down. for yeah From that perspective, it was... um Probably disappointing. I mean, obviously the session I was in at the MCG, which we might talk about bit later.
00:24:18
Speaker
And so it does really well there. um And so we know people love it and we've got it into, you know, then subsequent venues on the back of of that sort of distribution. But from a retail perspective, it's been quite frustrating. You know, the there's the push to lower alcohol. It's a mid-strength. um There's, you know, gluten-free push to, you know, the demographic that's younger demographics. A lot of them are gluten-free, you know. It sort of ticks what we thought were lots of boxes.
00:24:43
Speaker
And it is delicious. And and and it it we think it's delicious. and um But it hasn't, it has certainly lifted. And online, it's us it's our biggest seller. our our you know It is our biggest seller, apart from our limited.
00:24:56
Speaker
Hard to know if that's due to MCG, the taste or award, but there was definitely a lot of promotion that we did. yeah So people who come to our online store are definitely drawn to that beer a lot more.
00:25:08
Speaker
you know than other ones that would be considered around the same the same level, it seems to do well. I think it's our third bestseller. Is that right? I think online it's almost our bestseller. It's out of our mixed packs. um So, you know, it's great. People want it, you know. And so we we know, like everything in the beer world, it's, you know, time, repeat. so Everything in sales is repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. And then hopefully, you know, you'll get that day where...
00:25:31
Speaker
one of the one of the retailers or the big independents. So, yep, we'll take him. yeah And is that how it worked with the MCG as well in terms of, because obviously that would be Delaware North delaway north yeah operation, or is it just constant conversations or how to sort of break that barrier? Because it is a huge barrier. Are you on the truth? So, obviously,
00:25:51
Speaker
so obviously it's a CUB contract, right? So, you for any other... you know, of course, of course, they're not contracted, but you know, for every other brewery, not a home, they just ordered,
00:26:03
Speaker
And we phoned them up and it took us a while to find out who to talk to and said, what are you planning on doing? yeah and And it was just before um just before a Boxing Day test a couple of years ago and suddenly they just placed an order with Paramount and we sort of went MCG. That's pretty cool. That must be a mistake. That's pretty cool. What are you Have you got like a wedding or an event or whatever? And then he said, no, we decided that we're going to put you in every single bar next for the cricket and for the next footy season.
00:26:29
Speaker
I think we started off in their corporate areas for that summer. and And then from there, but um it wasn't, ah you know, i'd like to say we spent, you know, we've spent five years talking to plenty of others. You know, we we just picked up the Mariner Group, which is which is a big venues type thing in in Melbourne.
00:26:48
Speaker
um Fantastic group, you know, but but we started that conversation at one of those events, i think one of your events in Fed Square um many, many years ago was when we first met the Mariner Group. That's taken while to incubate. Yeah.
00:27:00
Speaker
This one just turned up and they're fantastic. You know, they they um just got a text before and what their first order is going to be for the footy season in March. So, you know, we kind of, they're pretty good at communicating with us and the Paramount guys. um And it's just so exciting. You know, I mean, to be to go to footy, to to the footy and drink water because Matt Geelong, we go every week with the kids, drink water for five years. Now it costs me a fortune because I'm sitting there drinking beers, huddling my kids don't drink so they can drive me home.
00:27:27
Speaker
um You know, that's what it's all about, that being able to do that sort of stuff. And and um so it's been really important. And on the back of that, we've got into Amy Park, um which is another stadium down here, which is sort of rugby soccer.
00:27:38
Speaker
um We just started getting into the tennis centre. um So, you know, we're starting to work on those big stadiums that are sort of recognising, and events.
00:27:48
Speaker
We just managed to get into the Fringe Festival in Adelaide this year, where, again, consumers going, my argument is always, I pay the same ticket price as everybody else. Just give me the same experience. Obviously, I'm getting the entertainment, but i actually want the entertainment with the experience of sitting there with friends or family and and being able to you know enjoy a beer.
00:28:06
Speaker
Same as everybody else. i don't want to be sitting on... glass of wine or i I'm sure the other stadiums or other i guess hospital businesses is dealing with those bigger venues wouldn't be putting more orders in if it wasn't pulling through so clearly people are you know I was going to buy because it's the only indie beer when i was at the Women's Ashes the other day but I could see people go out and come and work cans of the Session Ale um just wait I can't imagine they were all celiac.
00:28:30
Speaker
No, no, no. imagine they're looking and going, I know this is going to, I used have a flavour I like and I'm supporting a small brewery. I reckon but there's nothing about it that know that's the choice they're making. it like It's definitely not celiacs. It's definitely not, you know, so that there is something much bigger at play, you know,
00:28:45
Speaker
you know we love We call them two babies in the wild. sit there and go, somebody's got one over there. And I often feel like I'm going to walk up and say, hey, you celiac, gloom-free, whatever. but um the kids grab me and sit there. But I think it's just that um you know so the is clearly good. I mean, MCG some data with us.
00:29:06
Speaker
You know, the sell through is more than enough every summer, you know, this, this summer was much bigger with the, the bigger tests going on, wait for the ashes next year. Um, you know, so, so it's, it's working and Amy Park is selling a lot more than they used to of, of, um, you know, the previous beer that was in there.
00:29:23
Speaker
Um, so, you know, they they know it's working, um, And we support it too with with as much promotional work as we can, um you know, respecting obviously CEB and what they're doing.
Gluten-Free Beer Expansion Goals
00:29:34
Speaker
You know, we we certainly try to make sure that if you're going to that event, you know, you can get a beer if you choose to.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah. did it Is that where you always hope to see your beer or has it surprised you that it's made it into those kind of larger places? i think um i I think every liquor licence, I want to be able to go anywhere.
00:29:53
Speaker
You know, I'm getting closer to retirement. i'm thinking I want to travel around Australia. I want to go to an outback pub, you know, and we can do that. The Prairie Hotel and the Flinders Ranges, for example. It's probably about it. You know, they're somewhere in Alice Springs, but I just want to be able to go somewhere, you know, and be able to...
00:30:05
Speaker
sit there and have a beer with everybody else there and not actually look like the guy that's that's different to everybody else. So um I always think that all stadiums should have it, um you know, and they they don't because we've lots of people that saying, you know, why can't you get into Optus Stadium? Why can't you get into the Adelaide Oval?
00:30:21
Speaker
And people will go to those people and we think over time, you know, they they'll... work it out, they'll then order some, they'll give it a try. But the success with the G was they put it every single bar.
00:30:33
Speaker
You know, if you put it into two bars and you're trying to expect a consumer to walk halfway around the MCG for a beer, well, they've lost interest yeah well and truly before then. So they put it to every bar and it just salt socks off.
00:30:44
Speaker
When Richard interviewed me, and this is ah a long time ago, but I've a king memory. you know I I was very concerned about authenticity when it came to brands and and stories and those sorts of things. And I asked him you what his goals were around two days and stuff. And I told him that I meant more than just you know what meant.
00:31:02
Speaker
you know, where the business is going, or what he's trying to sell. And he said, well, his goal was straight and simple for every license in Australia to carry a gluten-free option in beer category. It could be our Bryans, it could be us. He didn't even care at the time if it was maybe, ah you know, some we didn't like so much with our gluten-free beer, but they need to they need a fucking and carry a gluten-free beer if they're running walk through the door because there's nothing worth being part of the cheers and you're not involved yet.
00:31:28
Speaker
You know what I mean? And and that was a big thing for him. It was his sort of, I considered that when we did some brand development stuff later, the real mantra of the brand was that every venue in Australia should have an option for gluten-free beer for the gluten-free consumer.
00:31:41
Speaker
I think it's very true. As a parent of some of celiac disease, you do appreciate that. Like, Matilda wouldn't see half the work that goes on, especially you're on the road on holiday somewhere, working out where we can go for a meal or whatever, especially checking on the f fries or that kind of stuff. Because much as I'm sure you've got use not to showing, disappointing, whatever, you like it it can make you feel different or you know not included, can it? if you can't If you can't have the same experience. And we try so hard. like you know You can't be 100% of it. We try so hard for her not to ever have to feel that way or yeah as much as possible. um And you know,
00:32:17
Speaker
If someone can sort of empathise from that perspective, it's like, why why would you not have gluten-free options everywhere? you know Well, you know my nearly everybody knows somebody who's gluten-free in some shape or form, whether it's by choice or by medical need. you don't have to go too far in your friendship group to to find that.
00:32:35
Speaker
But it is very important. you know I made a big deal with it at Anglesea a couple of weekends ago. I said, I want to go to the Aries Inlet because there's a tea house there that makes the best toasties. And three years ago, I was able to have this mushroom toasty and I convinced these groups, let's go. But then they said, well, actually, we now make them off site. We bring them in on normal bread. But if you want it, we can you know put the insides into a gluten-free piece of bread. Well, that's not going to cut it. They were very good about it. when They understood the issue.
00:33:02
Speaker
And so suddenly I'm having a ham and cheese toasty, you know, and I'd spent all morning and half the night before thinking about this lovely mushroom toasty. and And so you do get disappointed, but you kind of work and you appreciate that people are making an effort. You know, I was at Rice, Paper, Scissors, and they said, we just put our gluten-free, celiac-friendly fryer in.
00:33:19
Speaker
You know, so you understand the businesses are trying and they can't be everything to everybody long as they've got choice. um A can of beer in the fridge, though, You know, when I see places in a hotel in the city and and, you know, there's eight or nine different barley beers in the fridge and there's heaps normal, obviously, from a zero out perspective.
00:33:39
Speaker
But if you want the gluten-free one, you've to go to the outside bar. And I'm kind of like going, you know, really? One little row. Just one row. Surely people don't need eight different choices. You know, we're not talking about a craft beer bar. This was just a, you know, a bar. But then other places, Hotel National and Hardware Lane, you know, we're on five levels there with a beer on every tap. Yeah.
00:33:57
Speaker
Yes, you've been talking about like promotional activities. Is that something you feel you have to sort of keep doing constantly to keep getting the word out there? I know you've got Free the Taps coming. You want tell us little bit about what Free the Taps is? It's been going for a number of years, but is it sort of a constant need to keep putting it out there to get hospitality venues to buy in or whatever it might be?
00:34:14
Speaker
I think i'm interesting with Free the Taps is that the the same hospitality venues that did year one are pretty much all still on board um if they're still in business or and then we just added to it. So, um you know, the guys at Brewski still refer to it as they one of their best tap takeovers. The guys at Sweeney and Sydney, same same thing. So it's like a full tap taker of just all your own beers. Well, it varies. So Sweeney's will do 12 beers. yeah are Other places we might do three or four depending on on the venue.
00:34:41
Speaker
Yeah. We don't feel the need. it's It's more about wanting to give back to our community, to be honest. it's it's I mean, it shows the public that there's a people that will come in and if they find their venue a safe venue to go to, then it's a good thing.
00:34:55
Speaker
um But a lot of those venues will put us on and then we'll go back into package for the rest of the year. um so it's not like you you retain sort of sort of tap retention perspective. we We just think it's an opportunity for us to to let our consumer be able to go to the pub.
00:35:10
Speaker
Mm-hmm. and get a better experience than, you know, what they can get down here, but they can't come down here to do it. So, you know, if you're in Sydney, you can go to Sweeney's, you sit on their fantastic rooftop, you have 12 beers, all our core range plus everything limited that we possibly can give him because that, you know, 12 beer taps is, you know, about our limit.
00:35:28
Speaker
but But it's it's just that give back really. And they'll be fantastic supporters, but they support us because they know it works for them as well. um And it's just that thing, you know, when we do our limited releases, yes, there's a marketing sugar hit that goes with it and but and we do three or four of those a year.
00:35:45
Speaker
But, you know, they take a lot of planning. Like we' we've got the malts on the water for what we're going to release in... May, um you know, and we know what we're going to release in September because we need the malts to be coming for those um because we import them, sorry, I should say from the US. um So you sort of a lot of planning ahead, but but even with unlimited releases, it's more about getting a consumer to taste what a red IPA is.
00:36:09
Speaker
or a cerveza that you you know i may or may not have drunk a Corona depending on you know your beliefs are around gluten free or not. um But it just allows them to to try the beers that all you guys are all lucky enough to have you know, at every venue you could possibly walk to probably.
00:36:25
Speaker
So um it's it's that sort of thing that drives us more than anything else. And usually, i mean, you guys had the steam beer before. um Grant said he'd like to brew steam beer so the brewers get to do something interesting.
00:36:35
Speaker
I've never tried a steam beer so I was very excited about it. um And it's a fantastic beer and, you know, um the team, you know, proud that they brewed it. It's true to style and it shows us as a consumer set, you know, how interesting beer can be.
00:36:48
Speaker
Yeah. and And that's what drives us more than it probably... You know, anything else? Have you found any concern or fear from venues about putting a beer of yours on tap? You know, just that, you know, contamination, whatever might be, even though they hopefully cleaning their taps through, their lines through every few weeks. We have specific information around that. It's written on the Keg collar as well to remind them. And I believe that we should have some information that can go, like a PDF or whatever they can use. Our sales guys do have one. Sales guys. It was an early concern of mine.
00:37:18
Speaker
when I started is actually, you know, what about a tap point? That's where your biggest risks might be. So we we've worked hard to try and educate people when they are pouring a beer that was put previously on barley beer to actually clean the lines and and then rinse it thoroughly before they switch over.
00:37:33
Speaker
Yeah, i suppose even an event like Free the Taps where if other publicans can look at it and go, hang on, they're pouring 12 taps of gluten-free beer and we know that last week they were doing a Rocky Bridge tap takeover or something like that.
00:37:45
Speaker
It's like, okay, it sort of helps overcome that sort of hurdle in their mind. You clear the line, clear the cup, clean the tap, you know, go through that process. um You know, we often, if it's just a single tap we're taking over, um you know, we'll say take give us a side of tap, um you know, and and work on that side of things. But we've got probably – you know In our world, we're very excited. 40 or 50 pubs around the country that serve our beer all the time on tap. yeah um And they're great supporters and they know what it does to their business.
00:38:13
Speaker
And then others will kind of come in a little bit. But you know rotational taps, that's kind of probably our scariest point. you know If we do free the taps, we can control it. If it's a rotational tap, we work pretty hard with that venue to make sure they understand that.
00:38:26
Speaker
they don't want They don't want to get anybody sick and neither do way um ah So, you know, we just, you know, give them the information. This is primarily what Celiac Awareness Week is is really about to some degree. it's making people understand what the risks are. so And understand the risks, understand the... the the um the benefit for your business and and, and, and understand, you know, the joy you can bring to a consumer. was going to say the joy, yeah, because we've tried two or three of the beers, you know, while we're here and like, yeah, you could give them someone say, Hey, here's a match and not say this is a gluten-free beer. And they're going to that's got a beautiful, great depth of malt flavour and have no idea that this is made with, you know, malted rice and millet. I've yet to have one of your beers that I've sort of known have really had a different, completely different malt profile to barley beer or traditional beer. And, and,
00:39:13
Speaker
as the owner, because everyone everyone says, oh, can you brew the beer when I talk to people we own a brew? And they go, no, no idea. So I've just been incredibly fortunate that we've got, you know, that Chris has been around with us, we were just saying before, nearly five years.
00:39:24
Speaker
um And, you the other two is Grant and Stephen as part of our team. Grant's been here nearly two years, I think, you know. So we've got good, you know, longevity. And our sales team have been around for four five years because they all believe that you know, what we're doing for the sort of what, you know the the feedback they get is so so positive that they just, you know, enjoy working here relative to, you know, the choices like they could do.
00:39:50
Speaker
um And these guys make beer. So, you know, I get huge satisfaction when I go, you know, hear back from people who drink thousands of different beers can say, you know what, your beers are absolutely true to style. because I've got no idea.
00:40:01
Speaker
um And Christian goes, this is what a Pacific Island's host like. Celiac in the business as well. So everyone who's working here is non-celiac. And I don't think that like that anyone particularly avoids gluten across the whole business. set No, so barbecue days are tough. But none the guys are particularly worried about it.
00:40:21
Speaker
I don't think in any major regard. But I think the brand story is very authentic. And why they're doing it is very clear. None of you've got like you have got baguettes in the boot as as you get out you go, talk ni gluten fixed. We do have working around do have some rules around. Wash your beard before you over the boot.
00:40:37
Speaker
If they start coming back from lunch with crumbs, I go There's always things and staff Christmas parties as well and like and and events that we do. you know Everyone's got to be more and more conscious, but they appreciate it.
00:40:50
Speaker
and then And it helps them appreciate what they do more as well to see Richard and some of the challenges that he faces. So it was definitely experience for me. We're in the US. I mean, I think it's somehow a little bit easier in Australia than when, you know, being at an airport in the US and trying to find something gluten-free there. It's like, good luck.
00:41:06
Speaker
I mean, Doritos are nuts and then you don't even know where it's been processed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, I'd love to go actually go back to the start of the story as well. So we'll take a little break now and then come back to how you first discovered you were celiac and then started two days.
00:41:22
Speaker
Yep, that'd be good. But before we do that, let's talk about we're doing a brand ad. I tell you about that? Oh, okay. So we're doing this brand ad. So for the first time, we've done a whole we do a whole lot of marketing. A lot of it is around...
00:41:34
Speaker
what the market is called performance marketing. So, you know, buy this, buy that, free shipping, whatever it might be. And, you know, we, our online business is a very important channel for us. And it allows consumers to get to beers that they can't buy or buy taster packs and all sorts of stuff.
00:41:48
Speaker
But we wanted to do something was a bit more brands side of things. So we just filmed our first proper big, big boys and girls ad last week, you know, so we're looking forward to that coming out in the middle of March again for CELAC Awareness this Week and, and just sort of highlighting the, the,
00:42:02
Speaker
perils of a gluten-free consumer at a pub and and it's all around the shout that doesn't leave anybody out so it's all about you know making sure that if if you're a friend bring your friend somewhere where they can get a beer um you know those sort of things that we just consider that choice so it's gonna be pretty good hopefully we've got some great actors and we've paid a fortune so are you one of the actors no i an extra i'm an extra with a hat on in the back so they can't see the ball pack and where's this going to be ed It'll be, um I think, catch-up TV, because obviously mainstream TV is far too expensive, but catch-up TV and YouTube ads. So one of the ones where people can't fast-forward through them. You've got to watch the whole bloody thing. Yeah. Oh, nice.
00:42:40
Speaker
Great. Well, let's cut to a break, and we'll be right back. we say cheers? Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.
00:42:47
Speaker
It's time for Have You Done A Rowlings? Proudly presented by the legends at Rowlings labels. For the very best digitally printed cans and cartons with no MOQ, visit rowlingsprint.com.au and chat to Brad and Paul today. Craig, we're back with another Have You Done a Rowlings. Who have we got nominated recently?
00:43:08
Speaker
Mate, we've had nominations flooding in. Of course, Have You Done a Rowlings, it's all about celebrating the good beer citizens out there. it's it's kind of it's so It's a way to give a shout out to someone. They might work for a brewery. They might work for a bar. They might be a supplier. It could be anyone across the whole industry.
00:43:26
Speaker
um It's about celebrating the kind of collaboration and the you know, all the all the good things that people do around the country. So we've definitely had a lot more nominations coming in. I'd encourage more people to get on board. Go to craftypint.com forward slash railings.
00:43:43
Speaker
um But I think we've got ah a special mention and then a winner for for this week as well. Who's our and special mention, Will? Special mention, Will Tatchell from Van Diemen Brewing. Many in the industry would know Will. he's ah He's a farmer. He's a brewer. He's a beer judge, very involved in the community. He also loves his football and is involved very heavily at AFL at the state level in Tassie. Yep. And recently, him and a mate spent 24 hours kicking goals.
00:44:11
Speaker
That was all they did for 24 hours. I don't know how they slept or they took it in turns, how they did it, but they raised more than $13,000 for Ronald McDonald House Charity, which is awesome to see. Yeah, wow. That's fantastic. that's god you'd really want to be that's That's definitely not skipping leg day, is it?
00:44:27
Speaker
Fantastic effort to Will Tatchell from Van Diemen Brewing. Well done. yeah i And our winner for this week for the Have You Done a Rowling's grand prize, which is a nice little $100 voucher from the team at Rowling's labels, stickers and packaging.
00:44:45
Speaker
um is the one the only russell steel from easy times brewing in brisbane um russell would be very very well known to everyone working in queensland beer in particular he formerly worked with the office of liquor and gaming involved in very heavily liquor licensing and he continues to provide you know an advisory service i think to anyone trying to navigate the often very complex Queensland liquor licensing rules, I have to say. He's helped me out both from a ah Gabs Festival point of view. When we started in Brisbane, he was invaluable in helping us get off the ground and then also in my roles with with other breweries.
00:45:27
Speaker
But yeah, he's he's ah a fantastic person, always there at the end of the phone. He's also a big advocate um as part of the IBA and he's often leading the charge there. So there you go, Russell Steele, easy times. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of a thankless job, isn't it? Going to parliamentary inquiries and things like that and pushing it, but someone's got to do it and he's the one.
00:45:46
Speaker
That's it. Well, congratulations, Russell, and we'll put you in touch with Rellings and I'm sure we'll we'll see what kind of fancy, fun stickers, packaging and labels you come up with. Cheers. Cheers.
00:45:58
Speaker
Need something printed, but it's only a short run? Talk to Rallings. Whether it's cans, cartons or coasters, Rallings has a solution for you. Visit rallingsprint.com.au today.
00:46:15
Speaker
welcome back. Now, Richard, you discovered pretty late in life that you had celiac disease. and Do you want to take us back to sort of how how you found that out? And then, I guess, the steps that led to forming Two Bays Brewing.
00:46:27
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So 2015, July
Founding of Two Bays Brewing
00:46:30
Speaker
17th. So today, a friend of mine died on that day. So it's sort of Memorial Day, you know, and I went and my test in the morning and I got told and I went out and got shit faced on beer all afternoon. And that was pretty much the last time I've drunk a body beer since then. Cool. What were the clues beforehand that you figured something out? None. So the interesting thing is a lot of people have no issues at all.
00:46:55
Speaker
um For me, i used to get blood. Blood bank said, you're low on a protein. Go find out why. um And so when you're like that, you know, and they say you can't have beer, pasta, bread, you go, I'm just missing out. I mean, this is this this was pretty devastating news because I wasn't going to suddenly feel better because I felt fine.
00:47:12
Speaker
um And so it was a real case of of missing out. The... um For other people, I go, that they get very sick and and really struggling. Then it's, you know it's the best thing that's ever happened to them, you know, that joy. So everybody reacts differently.
00:47:25
Speaker
So for me, it was, you know, just this, you know, beer. What do you mean I can't have beer? I then sort of went... and found that you do make gluten-free beer and then O'Brien's were were around and they've been around they are probably the longest standing gluten-free brewery in the world I think um or pretty close to um so went and got all their beers um and tried them all and um then I started looking at what else you know I can drink you know um ah I love love wine so i was always I was fine with wine I found I could have spirits not massive spirit drinker unless Christian wins a golf putting tournament and we get a bottle of whiskey in which case
00:47:59
Speaker
We all enjoy that. Or Grant does, I should say. yeah Or, um you know, and cider was never, didn't really float my boat. But I got really interested in what Willie Smith and others were doing in the craft cider world for a bit.
00:48:12
Speaker
But I just kind of thought, you know, I'm not that old and I don't want to be drinking cider for the rest of my life. And also, for people that might not be aware, sort of, related to Australian craft beer royalty with your brother Steve having founded the local tap house and then co-founded Gab's Hottest 100 Stomping Ground. So I guess Stomping Ground would have opened right around then. Just before. No, just after, just after, sorry. So yeah I think was July and it was about November. Yeah, and they've got 20-odd taps and making all these amazing beers and you'd be like,
00:48:42
Speaker
Yeah, it was. i mean, it really is this, you know, I said to my wife that my life's over, you know, and that's the quote she remembers me saying. And it probably felt like that. um But, you know, I think so um I would never own a brewery if I didn't have celiac disease, right? I mean, there's so there's enough Barney brewers out there. You don't kind of need another one, is my opinion. so One of the families enough. said Well, yeah, I would have had, if I got mates raised, I would have been happy to keep drinking Sommie Grand beers or try them.
00:49:08
Speaker
um But I think, you know, the thing was in in, Steve said to me at one point, you know, I was consulting, you know, doing some, some consulting work and he said, why don't you start a gluten-free brewery? And I went, hmm, that's actually not a bad idea. So then started to look and that was kind of the the journey to it all. And, you know, is this a fad? Is gluten-free a fad? How many people are there that's out there like me or all not?
00:49:30
Speaker
And um that's that's kind of what started it. So I went to and then I said to Sarah, my wife, I said, well, I've got to go to the States and go to all the gold medal winning from the from the American Beer Festival and so again and should She goes, got to.
00:49:45
Speaker
No, no, she she was very understanding. And I literally flew into Portland in the middle of February and it was freezing cold. I went straight to this brewery called Groundbreaker and I had nine beers in front of me within about 10 minutes of walking in. The kitchen was 100 bucks. I could do whatever I liked. Yeah, yeah.
00:50:03
Speaker
And I phoned up from the bar and I said, we're on. you know these These beers were brilliant. They were actually using lentils and chestnuts. And um you know they were making... you know And it was a sorghum-based beer. um you know And I thought, yeah this is really interesting.
00:50:16
Speaker
Went up to Ghost... Caught the train up to Seattle, went to Ghostfish. Even bigger taproom, bigger food offering, bigger beers. And they were using the millet buckwheat and rice some grouse. Straight to Colorado, then over to New York and up to so Canada. I mean, it was brilliant.
00:50:29
Speaker
And I could do whatever I liked at all these venues... And the flavours, you know, across but what we found was that, you know, when when people were dealing with the millet buckwheat rice and the all grains, the beers just had a lot more to them.
00:50:42
Speaker
In the centre of the US, they're back into sorghum syrups and and things and and kind of weren't really doing as much for me. So then, you know, then I kind of got the other side they're back into all grain again. So, um its you know, it was brilliant. So then I managed to negotiate to get the exclusive rights to the malt. So I knew we could get the ingredients and just like any food,
00:51:01
Speaker
you've best ingredients you can get. So we got those. um And then I just needed money and a brewer. um You know, easy. so um So, yeah, we kind of started. And, um you know, at the time, AG, um was finishing up at Mornington and he was happy to do consult because of course when he brew beer but you you brew for a day and then you come in for about you know half an hour to check it through cellaring for the next few days and then towards the end so there was a lot of oil time and he was just really good about being able to be flexible for what we could afford to pay um and you know he's he's a great craftsman um but I tell you I i think
00:51:39
Speaker
he was ready to quit plenty of times through this process. um And we were managed to get some investors together to sort of make it a reality. So, um you you know, the way we look at the gluten-free community continues to grow.
00:51:52
Speaker
um And the number of brewers providing beer into that community is nice and contained. And there's a challenge for anybody else to try and come in and provide an alternative. And some are doing gluten reduced at the moment. um you know my view as a consumer is just be careful, you know, because you're sure that every beer batch you make with the Brewers Clarex is going to give you the same result because all the data is showing that's not the case.
00:52:20
Speaker
um So, you know, we kind of just like the maths from a commercial business perspective. And... and Yeah, we started in March 2018. We had our first beer in so in September um and we went to the Blu-N-Free Expo. We gave them two different parallel choices to juice from. We were serving our first beer at 9.01am and it was brilliant. um And then when AG went back to work with Matt and and and reopened Tar Barrel, you know, it's so kind of the starter code that wasn't it, I think. And and um ah Tribe was shutting down Mornington and... and um
00:52:55
Speaker
I said to AG, do you think Christian will come and work? He said, not a hope. But anyway, i I managed to least come have chat with me and, you know, we've been incredibly lucky. That was my reference on my resume, mate. Not a hope.
00:53:06
Speaker
He knew you loved Imperial Barrel H. Yeah, it's too much. I haven't had a head brewer job that wasn't his first. yeah So, um you know i you know, because you've got good ingredients without good brewers, you've got nothing either. So, you know, and we've got a great team. We've built that around since. But...
00:53:23
Speaker
um You know, the the challenge you can talk to to Christian about brewing with the ingredients we got, you know, it's it's not it. Doesn't seem easy anyway. With that first beer, you know, you might have got these ingredients that you knew had been used to make some delicious beers in the States, but no one had been using over here. So how did you get to sort of ah the first pale ales that you were happy with?
00:53:45
Speaker
You know, a brew brewer AG that hadn't made those sort of beers before. Like what were the challenges? that I guess even now, but you know, with Chris. Probably ask Christian because he he goes through the all the challenges every day. so Yeah, with new styles, I suppose, as well. straight Well, I mean,
00:53:56
Speaker
You know, AG is a gifted man. um I think he's a great guy. not He doesn't consider himself the most technical brewer in the world. And we'll happily chat about that. But he used to come through. He came strongly through the mornings indoor once and he was asking if I could run some tests. And can't remember who it was. Maybe he needed the alkalis or something. And he said, how a probably pH. Have a whiff of this and can i check it on your pH, man, and all that sort of stuff. And he said something was,
00:54:23
Speaker
you know, fuck me, I've done seven batches down the drain in the last two months. don't know what I'm going to um But he is, you know, the craftsman is really what he he really does.
00:54:36
Speaker
I remember Mornington Brown Ale as well took him a lot of trials before he was happy with it. So his standards are high. I think that's an important part to his brewing philosophy. So he he he will happily put something down the drain if he's not happy with it.
00:54:47
Speaker
um But he's very much a trial and error, you know, focus brewer, which, you know, I think is great. I think it's awesome. and and Richard probably doesn't because he's paying for all the grain. change But, you know, he he really, the first batch of pale, think, took him a lot of work.
00:55:03
Speaker
Yeah. And, um he you know, even even now I've sort of been privy to some of the email dialogues that he'd gone on with other with other brewers in the US s and our malt suppliers and stuff, trying to trying to get support and just trying to just trying to land the first batch. I think it was a huge challenge for him and the brewery and a huge accomplishment as well because, you know, he he was showing me this business. and I'm saying, mate, it's not,
00:55:25
Speaker
It's not that bad. um You know, it's not um and so terrible. You know what I mean? like say that that you know That wouldn't be good enough for AJ, though. It's not bad for gluten-free. Yeah. You know, like, in it's come a long way since there as well, but I think those those early parts were were a real mystery to him.
00:55:43
Speaker
And based on his sp brewing experience, he didn't have a lot to... was no way to go there was There was no easy answers to a lot of stuff. There was just a lot of trial and error. And then the matching process is complicated.
00:55:55
Speaker
And as well as with this going free brewers, they know how to approach it in the same way. we We were worlds apart from the way other brewers we speak to in the US actually brew their beers. We're worlds apart from where we, AG used to brew it back then.
00:56:09
Speaker
um and it's you know i can't just walk into a whole group of brewers and start chatting about mash razones anymore i kind of just stand there going i'm aware of their processes but i think that our processes are ah fairly complicated not complicated but a lot different um in that respect so but what's it like on the pilot sort of beers and the limited releases and things like that like how much today how much trial and error is it still taking there There is a practical element on the pilot brew system that um is a real challenge, and that's that we can't heat the mash outwards.
00:56:41
Speaker
So most pilot brew systems in our barley brewery deal with this, but it it hugely affects our efficiency. So whilst I might be able to brew a really good test batch of a beer. I regularly end up with an ab ABV that might be significantly different from what aimed for.
00:56:59
Speaker
And um you know sometimes with the speech and a lot of confidence from the people around me, so it's okay. I know what I need to know to move to the big brew system. That process up there is a lot safer. It's a lot more consistent.
00:57:10
Speaker
I've used that yeast before and I've used the same enzymes and the same malts before. I'm confident that when we go to can, we're going to hit the ABV that we want. But the the challenge we definitely have on the pilot brew system is the swinging AVVs and it relates to temperature control on the mashing system because it is ah every piece of equipment we have for the most part, unless we've had a stainless steel welder come in with an angle grinder and modify it is is for barley brewing only.
00:57:37
Speaker
There's nothing off the shelf and nothing was particularly bespoke when I started working here. And it's only things that we've edited that now are more adept to our process. And what about the ingredients? When when they get sent to you from the supplier in the States, do they say, this is the equivalent of this malt and this is the equivalent of this malt?
00:57:52
Speaker
Or is it a whole different sort of palette that you're playing with? they like to work to the same names and that sort of stuff. It's a really complicated complicated thing um because, you know, biscuit... Munich, you know Vienna, all these words that you know are very similar.
00:58:07
Speaker
But the philosophies for recipe development in the gluten-free world, I'd say, are different to the philosophies I had in barley brewing world. um I'm not afraid of using crystal malt and IPA. I think it's a bit of fun when the time is right. I'm not afraid of brewing a whole variety of different beers. it's It's not about that. It's just that when i use Vienna in the millet brewing world or the gluten-free brewing world, I use it as 100% base malt happily.
00:58:33
Speaker
Whereas if I was brewing a lager and I'd say 100% Vienna, it might be a bit malty for my target. So you've really got to get to know the malts. and their equivalents in the the millet world as well and translate them back to your same brewing philosophy and say what am i starting and finishing gravities what kind of flavor profile do i want for the beer and that's that's not easy yeah end up with some sort of little black book going this percentage of this is actually this percentage of Of the same name malt in a barley brewery kind thing. Am I good at documenting stuff? Some stuff. But some stuff I'm fucking horrible. And really bad. So I don't know.
00:59:11
Speaker
we have we have a certain language, I think, that exists here in the dialogue um around the gluten-free brewers and what we talk and when we translate it is if we use a crystal malt, we tend to preference a lighter one and we'll go heavier, for example.
00:59:23
Speaker
So what are we drinking now? IPA? It has more... caramel by percentage than i would probably use if i was doing a west coast back in the barley world yeah you know i'd be more conservative on the barley i would i i do like the the the crystal malt in an ipa at times sometimes i like you know maybe 100 pills i'm all about variety but when we're constructing the recipe and the dialogues around it tim generally speaking we're more heavier handed with the the multi ah descriptive so vienna malt um has become our main i'd say ale malt
00:59:55
Speaker
ah pale malt we use for our pale but we're also using a goldfish one which is you wouldn't know it's a trademark name that used only by a malt supplier so some exists with a name that should translate as a like for like but they don't necessarily translate that some exist as a goldfinch name which is by a grass supply it's really about celebrating milk and what it is and i think that's that's been some of our focus um As well over times, yeah, there's times when we want to replicate an ESB and go, let's make an ESB for all the people who've got diagnosed celiac health there and maybe they come from the UK and that's their favorite style or whatever. They like a multi-bit.
01:00:31
Speaker
Sometimes we're trying to celebrate what we have and so show how it can shine in certain views. And it's interesting because over the last few years, a lot of malts that we use in cereal format have been celebrated. I mean, we know Balthus Cerveza has made a huge impact on the scene and Cerveza Brewing has become a lot more popular in craft brewers and rice lagers as well.
01:00:50
Speaker
um just trying to think. Four Pines Rice Lager is really... that That's their number one sort of flagship they push now, yeah. Number one flagship beer. Again, royalw rice is is the, you know, it's not probably the main ingredient, but it's the main thing we celebrate when we're drinking that beer. So ah times we're trying to make a beer that replicates...
01:01:10
Speaker
but ah baywood consumer what consumer would experience for a gluten-free person, but at times we're trying to celebrate what we have. yeah And I think that's something that I've always talked about a lot, being here is don't hide behind what we do, kind of celebrate it to a degree and be proud of it and um and recognize that. so Yeah.
01:01:26
Speaker
And Richard, was it always really important to you to have that broad range of styles? Like I'm kind of feel like there's fewer and fewer beer styles you've made now, fewer remaining beer styles you haven't made. Like there's not a lot of options left.
01:01:41
Speaker
It's funny, well, because i um I thought we would have two beers. Yeah. I thought we'd have two beers in our core range and would be delighted if we can get bottle shops to range two beers. Yeah. um and maybe we'll just have a whole lot of little ones that we just threw through the bar.
01:01:56
Speaker
And then now we do gluten-free expo events. We'll have 11 beers in cans. I'm kind of going, that's maybe couple too many. But um it's just about that variety. And and again, I can't help it. Like the guys will go...
01:02:09
Speaker
but we're We're about to bring out a a Pacific Ale, right? So we just we I can announce this because it's been released two days you ago, hopefully. um The yeah XBA has been with us since the start.
01:02:21
Speaker
We've deranged that and we'll bring in a Pacific Ale because, again, it's that choice, but we can't keep expanding our core range. Yeah. um So, but we want people to be able to try, you know, what's interesting and exciting about a Pacific ale. And we think that style of beer will will resonate really well with the the consumer.
01:02:37
Speaker
But I really thought I'd have a pale ale and something else. Then AG says, well, you can't be a craft brewery without an IPA or Christian did one of them. Or the one made lentils. or then Or the lentils, yeah, or the puff quinoa that we did, the saisons. Then we did a sour. and then And we've got to have a stout. so um And I love it. You know, a beer, you know a beard there's a beer for every occasion. People say, what's your favourite? I don't have one because if it's a hot day, I love the Pulp Fusion. you Passion Fruit's how can smash that.
01:03:04
Speaker
Getting bit colder. I love our stout on nitro down here at the brewery. um The only downside really for me is that I live so close to the brewery that I've really got to go to work if I want to have a beer with my mates. And that's kind of that's that's a challenging thing that I hear from a a whole lot of other brewery owners too, um is you've got to go to work for for a beer. um But otherwise, yeah, I just didn't think we'd have this variety. But I think there's still...
01:03:28
Speaker
plenty more that we haven't done. We're bringing out a nice, interesting one middle of this year that, um you know, we we talked about doing. and And then I said, you know what, I really kind of like this name, not this name, but this style of beer.
01:03:39
Speaker
I'd like to try it again. um And luckily the brewers sort of mutter a bit and then they go, okay. You know, and so we'll we'll do that and it'll be a really nice one in carbonate. It'll be really nice on nitro.
01:03:51
Speaker
um And I'm, you know, yeah get it you know The good thing is I know what's coming, so I kind of get really excited about it. I'm looking forward to the Pacific Ale. I know what's coming in May.
01:04:02
Speaker
you know We have to plan, so that's the good thing. Well, I guess because you can't go, oh, I've already found Pacific I'll go and grab someone else. no You literally currently have to wait for your brewers to make that style. because We can go grab them for the guys to drink, you know which is nice, and they kind of then decide...
01:04:18
Speaker
Not which one we want to be close to because I think the beer, I mean, even with our cerveza, you know, um it's nothing like a Corona, but, you know, it's it's true to style. It's a really interesting beer, I think.
01:04:29
Speaker
um Really enjoyable. The feedback's been great from the consumers. um But we're not trying to copy a style. But if we want to do a Pacific ale, then we'll look at, you know, hops from the Pacific region.
01:04:40
Speaker
um and And I don't know where we ended up with, but, you know, the guys will choose. It's drier than our pail, I think, as well. So we do we talk about what that kind of consumer, what that person's perishing when they're after today when they want a hoppy dry experience, in my opinion, something sessionable.
01:04:55
Speaker
B, you're going to drink before you go to the beach or on the way home, hopefully. Maybe, I don't know.
Product Development and Consumer Preferences
01:05:01
Speaker
But, yeah, we chat about those things as well. I think the key thing was the XBA was very close to our payload. Yeah. All that.
01:05:08
Speaker
We liked the name XBA and we thought it was a fun addition to the range, for sure. There'd be a lot of... unhappy people probably. There are a lot of unhappy people. i like But yeah, and then the Japanese rice lager has been the un big one and the Aussie Island to the GFB range as well. So so as you know, we'll write two to four.
01:05:25
Speaker
We need low carbs as diabetics, right? So so we wanted a low carb beer within the range. mean, Han have their gluten free being low carb, but we wanted to do a craftier version of it. um And so Christian kind of said to me, fucking what you want, gluten-free, low-carb, low-alcohol, what have I got to work with? And you want it to be a rice lager with no nowhere, you know.
01:05:47
Speaker
um But it's proven now to be, um you know, I think it's our third best-selling beer in in the two-base range and easily, um and it's got a distribution through the the big retailers.
01:05:58
Speaker
um But it's a cranky beer. The consumer loves it because so many people just like low bitter, easy drinking beers. um You know, like something with a bit more to it, but the vast majority don't.
01:06:09
Speaker
When we did the GFB, we released that in September of 21. And that was really because from all our marketing, you can't, Well, the beer world, 15% of the consumers, maybe if we're lucky, drink a craft beer are interested. So therefore, 85% of people don't.
01:06:23
Speaker
And we're marketing to the whole gluten-free world. um And we kind of felt that we needed something for those people that don't want a craft beer, they don't want the flowers and the whatevers, you know, they just want an easy, low bitterness, easy drinking beer. So we released a GFP draft in September 21.
01:06:40
Speaker
um and perfect timing. you know Cost of living pressure come through. It's a lower price point. um It's got great support from sort of retailers, independents.
01:06:51
Speaker
um I thought it would actually go really well on premise because the LUC is lower and therefore they would do well. But a consumer, when they go out, they kind of want something maybe a little bit more to reward themselves, I guess. So we find that actually on premise it doesn't do as well as I'd expected.
01:07:07
Speaker
um But out out in ah retail and bottle shop land, it does. and And we kind of call it, it's almost a Monday to Thursday beer and then you've got the two bays on the weekend type stuff. And that seems to be the way we do a lot of online it where people look, a carton of GFB and a carton of a two bays or a mixture of cartons so that they can have that sort of variety that they want and then so the millet basically is the two basic brand
Brewing Process and Cost Challenges
01:07:30
Speaker
stuff all works off our malted extracts which we i'm sorry non-extracts so it's just malt yeah that we buy from from the us um malted millet mockwood malted buckwheat malted rice which comes from a different supplier malted corn in smaller amounts and they can be roasted and made different you know similar varieties to what barley can be as well
01:07:53
Speaker
but the cost of those, I'm going hand over to Richard. Yeah, so so um it's probably seven times the price of a barley malt. Wow. So I was listening to Marsden last week and he's got nothing to whinge about.
01:08:05
Speaker
You know, so so basically, yeah, seven times. So we start with an ingredient and obviously beer is, dare I say, 40% tax and water and everything else goes in it. But, you know, it's when you're starting with a barley malt, seven times the price. So, you know, for us to bring, you know, a dollar per litre is,
01:08:23
Speaker
um significantly lower barley, which is why we don't even try to compete on price. were We're just, it's pointless. I mean, the guys in the US that have tried, you know, it's just a recipe for disaster because maybe they don't have the shipping issues that we do, but um the the raw grain still costs them the same.
01:08:40
Speaker
So you're starting with that price point. um And therefore, we also wanted something that was maybe a bit more affordable. So the GFB range has allowed us to have a price point that's lower. We do it it in 24 cans because we think the consumer is much more a a slab buyer rather than a cube buyer.
01:08:57
Speaker
um and And it's just... And they're built upon the extracts. and Yes, sorghum and rice extra extract. We'll thank the GFB and Aussie Ale. yeah but So we have the draft the Aussie Ale and the GFB range. yeah So it is a cheaper extract. is a attention thing And there's there's competitors that exist that use those products to brew those beers.
01:09:17
Speaker
The main difference would be ours is brewed in a gluten-free only environment. So they and us both get celiac endorsement. If they go down that path, they can do that. But um ours is glued in a facility that only
Strategic Focus and Market Decisions
01:09:30
Speaker
makes gluten-free beer.
01:09:31
Speaker
Plus, I think you brew a better beer. Well, maybe. But it doubt but but it but it was it was a fantastic. And I said earlier, you know, it's about 30% of what we do now as the GFB brand. um And what I find the most exciting is the consumer will actually grab one of both, you know, and and both brands and products.
01:09:49
Speaker
you know, that, you know, we're not, we're miles above price point of our closest gluten free competitor, let alone, ah you know, a barley beer. um But the ka consumer will do that because they want to, um you know, enjoy the flavour of beer, you know, and and beer is is ah such an exciting product and and what it can do.
01:10:08
Speaker
and and therefore they don't want to miss out on that experience either. At the time, I think like seltzers were the popular thing and a lot of breweries started to brew seltzers to supplement. you know, something some loss in brewing, I suppose, because coming into COVID and those sorts of things. And we did talk about that and I was very much against it I think if Richard remember, I said that we should play to our strengths and we should really stick within gluten-free range. So why not make just a ah second, ah you know, and more cheaper product within our range and just use the Silver Max Strength, take what we've learned in fermentation and apply that to these beers. And I think that we'll be able to get a product that is really, really good.
01:10:49
Speaker
It may be just a draft type beer. It may be a more boring beer and less crafty 100%, but it's no different to, I think, a lot of barley breweries out there offering, you know, like an American-style draft beer where they get 20% corn or whatever and do that to to to do a lower cost, more domestic lager-style beer. We just did that using sorghum rather than our millet-based brews. Yeah, I mean, I bought four or five seltzers thinking, will we go to that market? And they sat the fridge.
01:11:19
Speaker
And I never drank them through the back. It was what we wanted That was my key point. Do you drink them? There's no way No-No's going to come into Christian to brew them. And so we wanted to stick with beer. you know Beer is fabulous. There's so much we can do with it. There's so many people that can't get access to it. There's many people that you know don't.
01:11:35
Speaker
fully understand that the the beautiful flavours you can get in it. um So we figured we'll stick to that. yeah And the community is great. And just coming up with some of you were saying in terms of challenges, sort of like obviously you're saying the temperature to control the pilot system, different extract, you know, going to different, I guess, weighting of certain, you know, malts in a recipe.
01:11:55
Speaker
Are there other sort of key challenges you've come up against or that you do come up against, you know, brewing with these ingredients? Yes, yeah. pretty much non-stop. yeah Don't list all of them. don't have but I think people will be keen, you know, not only is that are the base costs higher, but in terms of like the challenges that you face. so its So efficiency, that would, that would be an initial thing that Richard wanted me to look at, um you know, sort of AG passing on the baton.
01:12:22
Speaker
that That was a number thing. Number one thing was, you know, where are we at with efficiency? So being able to convert the starch into sugar better, essentially. That was massive. Getting more of it, I think.
01:12:33
Speaker
and led to huge increases in what we could yield straight away um I think it also to a degree started to improve some of the flavors it just made them cleaner they still too taste gluten-free but you don't want you've got to be careful of starch carrying through the process for a number of reasons um but the fermentation issues they're really ongoing um we've depending on the recipe formulation changes the dynamic and how but how we deliver the nutrients for the yeast in that environment.
01:13:03
Speaker
There's no stripping or any any process downstream that picks up those things really. You have to try and tie to clean fermentation all the time. and And that's probably our greatest challenge on a day to day. Brewers are constantly talking about this.
01:13:17
Speaker
So zinc deficiencies and acetaldehyde is a common thing. So gluten-free beer shouldn't taste like cider or cidery in my opinion.
01:13:28
Speaker
And they were one of the early things that I think that I spoke to Richard about is that I think that they are fixable and there's a lot of work that can be done in this department. But then there's a lot of challenges regarding head retention and mouthfeel.
01:13:41
Speaker
I think we've significantly improved on those things. I think the mouthfeel of the beer is much more textural, more similar to barley, and we'll keep working on that. I think the head retention...
01:13:52
Speaker
is great on the tap point and we've made a huge point so i think it's sometimes the cans we still struggle and is that through changing process is it through additional you know adjuncts the help on on those fronts everything we use is an adjunct depending on how you look it's not a thing we get on the the purity list that i think except water yeah and yeast but yeah it's in the malt department it's all adjunct but um yeah 100 so um were and we're talking about it all the time it's like the number one thing we like to tease with the brewers and so every time we get the opportunity to brew a new beer and it's going to the pilot system we might test something new each time a lot of it's trial and error a lot of us talking talking to people and and trying to get some expert knowledge or scientists a lot of it's um
01:14:39
Speaker
um Some of it probably luck to a degree. um But you know we're teasing that. It's luck as long as you can work out what it was that was different that time. But there's this
01:14:50
Speaker
but you know and there's this this Regular brewers come to me and say, have you tried this? Have you tried Tetra Hop? Have you tried you know nitrogen carbonation? It's like, yeah, we've tried a lot of things, trust me. um So I think our principal things that we're looking at the moment are to new grains that are Australian and working with more raw grains. So this is a we've got small one coming from Australia, New Zealand, on a gluten-free certified diet.
01:15:17
Speaker
mil and the and the rice, which comes in whole grain from the Riverina, which is also, they publish you know, they have gluten-free certificate that they release. um But you know where will go next? Who knows? But yeah, definitely process driven.
01:15:33
Speaker
yeah It's definitely obscure, i would say, for regular brewer. But you know none of our brewers... It's not like we put out an ad for a new job and expect ah other gluten-free brewers to apply. Everyone comes in from the barley brewing world and we've got to...
01:15:50
Speaker
We've got to, you know, work them through what our process is and how we do that. I'm sure that appeals to some part of you, though, like in particular is your approach to brewing. I'm sure you love that
Operational and Industry Reflections
01:16:00
Speaker
problem solving and that sort of, you know, technical kind of thing. There's been times when I haven't slept because of crying babies and stuff and just think,
01:16:08
Speaker
Fuck me. Like, why aren't we mashing in with barley today? There's been practical elements that it's sort of like the brew house is bought before we got to any major production and before I was even here.
01:16:21
Speaker
So, yeah, we had stainless steel welders come through and cut holes and drill here and I'm like, you know, we need this. It's like... He's got the most accommodating boss there. A lot of retrofitting.
01:16:33
Speaker
I'm a strong negotiator, I would say. I need a carton here and we need this thing. so And then the Brewers, I think they but really enjoy a lot of aspects of it.
01:16:43
Speaker
I'm sure they have... you know we We try to always manage it so that that whatever we say in the contract and their hours per day ah are the same. We're only doing two breweries a day. i think in Mornington we were three. I imagine Alt Nation got to four within. you know The new owners came in. i imagine they got to four within a pretty short amount of time. It's not abnormal for barley breweries at a production level to be doing four in a day.
01:17:05
Speaker
So we've always tried to... Can we do three? yeah Maybe. Maybe one day. But ah you know currently our mash regime is really, really long. yeah um And we're always trying to make a really good environment from our brewers. We're taking the team to IBD in a couple of weeks. Free plug for you guys being the sponsors there. But that's super exciting to be able to do that and and take the team over and hopefully they'll put two-base shirts on and chat to a few people and and get a few questions and be able to answer and say, well, you know, actually at two-base we do things really differently.
01:17:35
Speaker
um Whereas I don't know that... you know a lot of good work going on out there, but mostly people are talking about how you dry out your meeples or how are you brewing your latest pastry stat or sour or whatever it is.
01:17:50
Speaker
um Our process is definitely different. It's definitely unique to us, even training to brewers in the US. And I said to Richard, I'm surprised people didn't ask more questions. And I think the reason was because I hadn't tasted that beer. yeah um And then they saw us walk on stage at the end. Now we don't answer their phone calls. It's themselves as he fe is with it no It wasn't like that, but i you know it's it's just astounding to hear how people are using the same raw ingredients, but it it is really worlds apart in terms of how they they turn that into a product downstream. and
01:18:22
Speaker
And then some fantastic beers that we had as well, and that's the other thing. so There was no... The big epiphany I think I was looking for was walking into a gluten-free brew pub and seeing this amazing, outstanding head retention yeah across the board.
01:18:36
Speaker
And I think we're all still working on that. it is Epiphany plus also, damn it, it can be done. chase that all the time. But it's not just the head retention. really think texture is a big part of it.
01:18:49
Speaker
um I think we've come a long way in that regard. You don't get the so of soda watery bubbles, I think, that... or an initial thing that I kind of observed in the beers. I think acetaldehyde is relatively low wherever my hot flavors shine, which I don't think you can do without having, you know, a healthy fermentation.
01:19:06
Speaker
And after Brewhouse, the process is relative to when i was in Mornington and other craft breweries that I talk to all the time. we You know, we still give the IPA to dry hops and chill for amount of days and it moves along the process. It's not like we're getting up there and, you know, feeding this bird seed beer, nutrient nutrients to the top. of that Cut that out. Bit of baby bio. You know, but, you know, we don't have to get, um you know, milk formula or anything like that. So it's not, yeah, complicated.
01:19:35
Speaker
yeah okay Yeah, well, I think that sort of talking of challenges and lessons, this could be good time to end our final trail of questions. Yes, we should wrap up. I mean, looking back at the past first, Richard, if there was one thing you could sort of tell yourself in the past before you started all this, what would it be?
01:19:52
Speaker
um set your expectations probably a little lower. um And you've got to yeah got a beer in the G. And and I've got a, well, correct her, which I tell you, I'm the only Jeffers that has that, right? which Which is very good from a bragging right perspective.
01:20:06
Speaker
um In fact, I've got the only crap beer in there. But I think the the thing that surprised me, I came from a commercial world before and I thought, and I was saying to to James earlier, you know, I honestly thought we'd go in there, you'd meet some procurement guy somewhere or a academy you know category manager or whatever.
01:20:21
Speaker
They'd go, yep, we need a gluten-free beer. And if you were the one, you would just get rolled out. And the difference we found is that, yes, we're the one and we are the but you know the preferred gluten-free beer.
01:20:33
Speaker
Now they say, and speak to the 300 venue managers we've got that actually probably change every two or three weeks anyway. Yeah. and you know sell in each cycle. So that that side of it has surprised me from a growth perspective. you know And we've been very fortunate because we have got some interesting, you know some really you know iconic places that we've been able to get into that other people would be incredibly jealous and love to have their beers there.
01:20:56
Speaker
um But at the same time, that's probably, it's just, it's just, you know, it's not this world and the world's big, right? Like we started in 2019, really. 2019, we worked to get a beer around Australia.
01:21:07
Speaker
2022, they shot it, 2020, they shut us Australia down. Same for 21. And then we've had cost of living. me So, so no year's been, perfect, but I think that's just business. I mean, no, no, he's ever been perfect. I don't think.
01:21:20
Speaker
um And what, ah what about if someone was entering the industry now, is there any advice you'd like to give them about beer? Set your expectations lower, I guess. Brewpub, brewpub, brewpub. I would say I'd i'd say that the days of wholesale, you know, the noise you're getting back from the big retailers are around,
01:21:36
Speaker
not only putting their own beers in there, but but also around how much shelf space they're allocating to beer generally. um You know, I think the the model of staying hyper-local, looking after your community, you know, the regional guys that are out there, and that's why we are so important and why we I guess as an industry we're fighting so hard, but you know, the the guys that are regional looking after Mount Beauty, you know, with, with Crank Handle or whatever it might be, you know, I mean, that's just where I think you could still have a very successful business model, but you are largely, gotta be, you gotta to love hospitality because that's, that's a different beast to everything else.
01:22:13
Speaker
Um, you gotta love hospitality and you gotta work very hard at it, but don't, you know, the days of thinking I'm going to start here and I'm going to sell my beers around Australia, uh, I'd say for the vast majority of,
01:22:25
Speaker
Brewers are going to happen and therefore be be happy, love hospitality, love dealing with the community, support the community and they'll look after you. and I guess the last time we've almost got one from each of you, your one hope or dream for beer in Australia looking forward.
01:22:39
Speaker
You go first. and You go first. I'm becoming political at the moment because with with all that's going on, but I think this, um just treat us the same as every other alcohol choice.
01:22:50
Speaker
and You know, I think this this idea of um making us, forcing beer to be more expensive than needs to be at at the substitution of something else makes it ah a product that then becomes, you know, harder to afford. And we were talking about it at the G, you know, I think our cans and all beer cans are $14 or something at the G. I mean, that's,
01:23:09
Speaker
That's a lot of money to drop. And I mean, I've sat there in the ah in the crowd listening to people coming and I've just done four cans. You know, my my shout, that just cost me about 60 bucks. And they go, well, we're not going back for a second.
01:23:20
Speaker
And you're kind of going, well, so you sit on one beer for the whole of the four hours because you can't afford to go back and have a second. And I think that's the thing. So for me, it's around... you know making it affordable.
01:23:31
Speaker
It can be drunk responsibly. it doesn't you know It's not about drinking and over-drinking or anything like that. It's just about it's about bringing people together over a beer and whatever and just don't penalise the beer community um in that. So that's what I'd love.
01:23:47
Speaker
Bit of fairness. Not going to happen, but it's what I love. But we'll see. We'll see. Is it make more saison? Oh, I can do that. You can do it here anytime you like. For the beer industry, you know, in Australia, I just want to see the opportunities for the career-based brewers. I mean, COVID was challenging. The last few years have been challenging. I've seen more people that i considered, you know, really knowledgeable brewers leave the industry over the last six months than I probably have over COVID.
01:24:14
Speaker
And I think that's sad and and you know I'm watching you know lot of breweries in a tough economical situation. But just even even that alone has overshadowed, I think, some of the work Will, you did, expose a kind of stuff, looking into brewers and some of the challenges they face within the the industry and how they, you know industry burnouts um and some of the other themes that that you covered.
01:24:39
Speaker
have sort of been lost in this in this debate. And and in a lot of the peers, a lot of people I speak to, they're they're in really challenging situations. They're unsure about the future, and that's hard. I remember coming into Tube's security was a huge thing.
01:24:51
Speaker
We sat down to a job interview, and I think Richard thought he was interviewing me, but he found out later he was not. No, I did, actually. And I'd been off the back of the Mornington situation. I'd made a full team people were done it.
01:25:03
Speaker
in the industry. and And that was hard. And then and losing my own job ah in that process as well, losing, pouring down a barrel program, which had saisoned in it, which I think would have tasted absolutely fantastic, Will.
01:25:15
Speaker
and um And, you know, Flemish Reds that never came to fruition. I've still got some in Kegg that's shed at my home. i That would keep you up at night. Well, no, I mean... Because you've still got some at home. Nothing compared to displacing a full team of people. and It's been great to see some of those people relocating into other jobs.
01:25:35
Speaker
But I think that, you know, to get there, a lot of those career brewers have to to take take risk. You've got Harry with Love Shack in Castlemare. He was one of those team, he took the risk on himself. He was like, i want to if I want to have a sustainable job in this industry, going to need to take risk on myself. And and you look at a lot these larger breweries or mid-sized breweries that have been through voluntary administration and usually doesn't come with redundancy um some of those people being made redundant might find themselves like me they've got a you know three months before their wife gives birth so they've got to find another job an industry that i'd say that has less ads than it has a long time ago so this this is the back end of i think where we're at with the tax situation and i'm very much following the debate all the time i think it's
01:26:20
Speaker
It just feels like repetitive words all the time, but holy hell, we need to fix that shit. And we want to see the smaller businesses, the mid-sized breweries and and all the breweries do well so that you can come into brewing and and have a career. I've been security with it yeah super lucky where i was at. I was very much about...
01:26:42
Speaker
interviewing Richard and and being sure about the direction of the company, I was i was interested in value added. so So looking at something that I thought was gonna grow,
Achievements and Industry Recognition
01:26:50
Speaker
ultimately, looking back, I took a punt on on two bays and I thought that there was room to improve it. And I thought there was a vision and I thought it was authentic.
01:26:58
Speaker
And I think that what we've done with the the awards, not just the World Beer Cup, but also about to get a trophy at the Independence, where we fall into a group category and gluten free is just one.
01:27:09
Speaker
So the other beers that we've taken down on the trophy tables have been barley-based beers. Adds to the credibility of the story and it's helped with success. And that's the way I see it. So ultimately, if I saw the industry change, we'd more security for the the career based brewers, the aspiring brewers, as well to be able to enter the industry and make it long term and have a secure job.
01:27:32
Speaker
Great. I couldn't think of a better place to end it. Christian and Richard, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for coming down to the crappier capital of Australia. He's remembered to end on a high night too. I'm waiting for the guys from Queensland to call me any day now. Cheers.
01:27:47
Speaker
Cheers.
01:27:52
Speaker
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01:28:02
Speaker
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01:28:25
Speaker
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01:28:40
Speaker
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01:29:01
Speaker
And now back to the podcast.
01:29:06
Speaker
The Crafty Pint podcast is produced and edited by Matt Hoffman. You can get all your beer-related news and reviews on the Crafty Pint website, craftypint.com, and can stay up-to-date on future podcast episodes via socials.
01:29:20
Speaker
We wouldn't be able to produce the podcast or the website, events or festivals we run without the support of the beer industry, whether that's suppliers, bars, breweries or bottle shops. If you'd like to support the show or partner with The Crafty Pine in other ways, please reach out to Craig via the details in the show notes.
01:29:35
Speaker
And if you're a beer lover who'd like to support what we do, you can join our exclusive club for beer lovers, The Crafty Cabal. Visit craftycabal.com for more. And until next time, drink good beer.