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With Graham Alder
77 Plays2 years ago
Here at Solas we love hearing about how Christians are living out their faith and sharing it creatively in all kinds of contexts. Today we hear from a policeman about the particular challenges and opportunities he finds in his line of work.
Graham Alder is a Police Sergeant and Christian Police Association Scotland Branch Leader & Trustee. He has over 18 years Police service in a variety of roles and locations. Blessed with a wonderful wife and children, a keen musician and late comer to enjoying books, mainly on apologetics and church history.
Christian Police Association UK
CPA Scotland Facebook page
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Transcript
Introduction to the PEP Talk Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to another edition of PEP Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I am Andy Bannister from Solas. I'm joined by my effervescent, energetic co-host, Claire Williams, coming to us from sunny Hampshire. How are you doing today, Claire? Well, thank you, Andy. Good to be back with you.
00:00:29
Speaker
Always great to podcast together. We have a great guest today. We always bring you great guests, but today is a great guest.
Role and Purpose of the Christian Police Association Scotland
00:00:37
Speaker
We have Graham Older, who is the branch leader of the Christian Police Association Scotland. That's quite a mouthful, Graham. Did I get that right?
00:00:47
Speaker
You did, Andy, yes. Fantastic. Well, for those who don't know about the Police Association Scotland or the meaning of great clever titles like Branch Leader and whatnot, what is the Police Association and the Police Association Scotland and what's the kind of part that you play in it? Tell us a bit more.
00:01:05
Speaker
Of course, yes, so I'm in CPA parlance, as you say, the branch leader for the CPA in Scotland. So we are one of many branches of the CPA across the UK. We're in most police forces throughout the UK, and so my equivalents, other branch leaders, would operate
00:01:24
Speaker
in other four series. We are, I suppose, a little bit more unique along with Northern Ireland in that we cover a country in its own right, as such, in Scotland, and so have one branch for the whole country. The CPA has been on the go for 140 years as of next year, and began in 1883 in London, and yeah, has been carrying on the legacy of our founder, who's a wonderful Christian woman called Catherine Gurney.
00:01:53
Speaker
who began the International Christian Police Association back there in London in 1883. So here we are, and we'll have our 140th anniversary next year. Wow, thank you for sharing that with us, Graham.
From Graphic Designer to Police Officer: Graham's Faith Journey
00:02:11
Speaker
I want to ask you, tell us about your calling into the police force. How did that go?
00:02:18
Speaker
I was a graphic designer before I joined the police. I did that for nearly 10 years. And I knew a couple of other graphic designers who joined. We were on my course in the police as well, so I don't know if that says something about our employment. But yeah, for me, it was just that there'd been a building up to over a couple of years in previous employment, a questioning about
00:02:47
Speaker
future purpose, future role, I just had a growing sense that it wasn't going to be.
00:02:53
Speaker
in graphic design, it'd been something else. And at least it wasn't something I'd immediately consider. It wasn't something I'd thought of when I was younger, except I'd always been an RT type. And that's where my skills and passions lay. But ultimately through a lot of prayer and consideration, the Lord led me to policing. And that was over 18 years ago now.
00:03:19
Speaker
There's got to be some kind of bad pun in there about from, you know, from draw enforcement to law enforcement.
Challenges and Opportunities of Faith in Policing
00:03:34
Speaker
So one of the things that interests me is that some people looking from the outside in might sort of think, I mean, gosh, is it must be quite a tough place to be, you know, to be a follower of Christ in the police service. I mean, for a number of reasons. Firstly, some of the stuff that you deal with if you're a frontline police officer, you are probably seeing some of the worst
00:03:55
Speaker
of society or great tragedies when you're trying to pick up the pieces after an RTA, road traffic accident or something. And then on the other hand, to go, you know, it's quite a large, secular organisation, you know, Christians are a small minority. Is it a tough place to be a Christian or is it somewhere that you're excited about the difference that can be made as a Christian in somewhere like the police? Yeah, I would say the latter, definitely. From
00:04:23
Speaker
say over 18 years now, I started out really making my faith quite obvious, in fact very obvious, as obvious as I reasonably could make it to my colleagues and I never found that an issue. Tried to make it something as natural and conversational as I could with colleagues and I personally haven't found it a difficult place to be a Christian. I think that there's undoubtedly
00:04:53
Speaker
As you've alluded to, lots of challenging things that the police deal with, but I've found my faith, my relationship with Christ just a real strength through that. And I know I could speak for Christian colleagues in that respect as well, many of whom still serve in those sort of environments where they're dealing with those types of issues and the sort of
00:05:21
Speaker
I think for those I've come across over the years, for many it's knowing Christ has been that tremendous strength to them and in dealing with some, as you've said, some of the really dark stuff and difficult stuff that the police have to deal with.
Mission of the Christian Police Association
00:05:40
Speaker
So Graham, can you kind of unpack for us in, I don't know, over the course of a year, what kind of
00:05:49
Speaker
engagement would CPA have with the community or what kind of work are they doing on the ground please?
00:05:56
Speaker
there's different aspects to one of our sort of part of our mission, our vision as such is to be a support and encouragement to Christians within the police service. So that's sort of the primary aspect of what we do. There's an aspect of being what we would describe as a national voice for Christians in policing. So that's engaging with
00:06:21
Speaker
the police service internally and so that comes in different forms but it may be through consultation over policy change internally that would affect all staff, all officers and staff. It may be through external changes in legislation that police have to then adapt to around training, things areas like that and so we'll engage
00:06:46
Speaker
As a consultee, a critical friend, as such, the police service to try and help them get the implementation of these things as right as they can in terms of who affects Christians, given that's our particular interest, of course.
00:07:06
Speaker
and externally it'll be through engagements in churches and other groups where we're speaking to them, encouraging them to pray for the police, to pray for the CPA, and doing things like this here today as well, as we try and articulate some of the challenges facing policing, some of the
00:07:27
Speaker
ways in which people can support the CPA and prayer and other means. So there are, I suppose, there are the three elements to the three core elements to how we go about doing what we do as a CPA.
00:07:40
Speaker
Another thing I find fascinating, you know, talking to others who are Christian police officers, and the same would apply to people who are Christian serving in the NHS or the fire service or the military or ever, you know, part of this quite big diverse organization with people from different races and cultures and backgrounds and beliefs, all beliefs and none.
00:07:59
Speaker
how can you can you sort of share at all any sort of wisdom that you've you've learned all the others that you know in the service of learning about how you again talk about your faith in Christ recognizing that diversity but not letting it shut you down because I think sometimes people Christians can run away from it I get the hunch that I think you would probably see because I know we've spoken before that actually it's a great opportunity because in one sense everyone's talking about beliefs so that gives Christians an opportunity to do it but maybe we just need to be wise and
00:08:26
Speaker
how
Balancing Christian Beliefs and Diversity in Police Work
00:08:27
Speaker
we do. Any sort of thoughts into the whole Christianity and our diverse organisation piece? Yeah, I think what we've found through experience over the years is
00:08:40
Speaker
approaching it with two fundamental elements to it, and one being that we speak the truth, we're not dishonest about our beliefs and about what we believe, that we are gracious with it secondly, and that doing that and operating in that way has allowed us to, I think,
00:09:05
Speaker
and navigate some of the sensitivities that you've spoken of there and to be able to continue good conversations within the police and with colleagues of say of different beliefs of where there's different protected characteristic elements there and how we all sort of work together and
00:09:29
Speaker
remain and keep that professionalism within that as well. It's important obviously that the police has got a strong values base in terms of how we go about doing all that we do internally and externally and so there's a strong emphasis on that inside the police service.
00:09:50
Speaker
which does aid that aim in terms of how we deal with one another. But obviously our Christian calling is to speak the truth about what we believe and what that offers to other people and what that's done for us, but also to do that in a really gracious way so that we can in maturity deal with our differences ultimately and be able to work together still within that.
00:10:22
Speaker
Thank you. I think Andy touched on this in a previous question about the sacred secular divide of being a Christian and working in the police force. But I'm sure, obviously, this is a very live topic, but there are communities, there are people who mistrust the police, and the idea of a Christian police officer is almost unheard of.
00:10:51
Speaker
possibly might see you being a Christian and being part of the police force as, or maybe, you know, you're, you're part of the problem with the police, if they, if they see the police as problematic. What would you say to those
Christianity's Role in Justice and Community Engagement
00:11:02
Speaker
sorts of things? Because I think, you know, we've seen a lot of things coming in from the US, lots of things over, I guess, the pandemic as well, to do with questions about the police and how different communities are treated. As I said, it's a live topic. So, yeah, just your thoughts on that, really, please.
00:11:18
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose it does reflect back to what I spoke of earlier a little in terms of I would say Christianity in policing is very compatible in terms of what we're trying to do. I think there's a real interest in justice as you've alluded to there and I think for me it was a quite obvious connection between
00:11:42
Speaker
Christian values and the Christian moral framework as such and what we see in society that thirst for justice and for fair treatment and these all these important things and I think we can readily find the root of these things in the Christian framework and so I've never found that a conflict that fully appreciate that the experiences that
00:12:07
Speaker
many have had that haven't been positive for the police and part of our building bridges with the community is to try and help us navigate through those difficulties that folks have experienced. Again, I suppose our audience is typically a Christian audience, so it
00:12:31
Speaker
the context is often a little different. We don't tend to encounter quite those same experiences there, I would say, from experience thus far. The Christian community we're engaging with are typically
00:12:48
Speaker
you know, interested in and supportive of generally the policing as in accordance with scripture, that they were told that kind of general view towards policing. Not to say that they agree with everything that police do, that would be way too simplistic, of course. But I think that sort of, I suppose, thinking from out with the CPA in terms of broader policing,
00:13:17
Speaker
concerns that there's certainly in Scotland, which is who I can speak in that context, that there's certainly a real interest and a real drive internally from the executive level down to really recognising and
00:13:37
Speaker
and deal rightly and appropriately with the concerns that elements of our communities have the experiences, the bad experiences that they've had, and to try and address those as robustly as is possible. I suppose there's an element to that that the CP work towards. Our audience, as I say, is primarily a Christian one in terms of external
00:14:04
Speaker
work internally, obviously, we're engaging with the organisation as a whole. Thank you.
Providing Hope in Police Work
00:14:12
Speaker
We talked earlier, Graham, about some of the many challenges that can face a police officer, particularly some of that really seeing when life goes wrong, if you're called to a crime and something terrible has happened or a traffic accident or this kind of stuff, or often it's police officers are scraping people off of a pavement after something has happened.
00:14:34
Speaker
That's a lot of suffering. That's a lot of injustice. That's a lot of bad stuff that people see. Is there an opportunity then for Christians serving in the police to really bring something, the hope of the gospel into those situations? Because that stuff must pile up on a police officer. And I wonder, are there opportunities for Christians to really come alongside colleagues and use that as an opportunity to perhaps talk about when it's appropriate? Some of the hope that the gospel can bring even into those situations.
00:15:02
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we all, Christians obviously aren't immune from that challenge either in terms of the personal effect on them and your colleagues who would speak very candidly about the impact of the trauma related to incidents and how that's affected them. So I think within that,
00:15:27
Speaker
We have that awareness of what it's like for our colleagues. We are there with them in that respect and experiencing many of the same challenges that they do. And I think there are opportunities within that to just have
00:15:49
Speaker
open, honest discussions about some of the questions that naturally arise through some of these difficult situations that police officers deal with and some of the devastation that they witness and have to try and get their way through and create some order out of quite a lot of disorder at times and that's really challenging.
00:16:13
Speaker
and these are just people and the day police officers so there are opportunities within that to just sensitively chat openly and honestly about some of these issues and how that affect people and how they deal with that as well as to where they take their
00:16:37
Speaker
those lasting sort of questions and memories and things that they have to contend with in the light of some real challenging things that they have to see. And I think there's such an obvious place there for Christians in terms of where we take our concerns and our troubles and memories and all these difficult things that can arise from policing. But I think again, speaking for
00:17:06
Speaker
and so many Christians in the police service that it's her relationship with Christ. He is the place that you take these challenges and difficulties and find that peace and perspective, which is so important.
00:17:28
Speaker
Yeah Graham, I'm conscious of the fact that we're talking about some quite heavy things here and I just wondered if you could just share with us your most rewarding and joyful time of being a police officer and specifically working with the CPA. I suppose for the CPA terms it's seeing growth in
00:17:54
Speaker
individuals and in the CPA more broadly, it's seen the impact that CPA can have on folks within the police service. We find people speak about where they perhaps worked in some sort of isolated
00:18:15
Speaker
more isolated role and felt a real sort of particular sense of connection within the context of employment through the CPA.
Praying for Police and Christian Values
00:18:26
Speaker
And I suppose in policing terms, there's been lots of things over the years that are very rewarding, but I think that
00:18:38
Speaker
there's that piece there for police officers that everyone joins wanting to make a difference ultimately, wanting to bring something good, something positive out of the difficulty and challenge that are there and out there. And I think there's just many ways in which that manifests itself and many opportunities for police officers to do good out there and to bring something
00:19:08
Speaker
something really positive to really difficult situations. So while it's hard to pick out ones in particular, I think there's just been lots of opportunities over the years to do that. And it's been very rewarding. I say it's just been a strong sense that this is where the Lord has intended for me to be at this time. And again, I would speak for colleagues in that respect as well.
00:19:38
Speaker
Fantastic. Well, one very last question, Graham, so we're almost out of time, but for churches who have police officers in them or for Christians who are friends who are Christians serving in the police, how can we pray? What would be some good things to be praying for Christians in the police service? Because we've talked about some of the challenges, you've talked about the opportunities. How can we be praying? Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker
It's interesting that Catherine Gurneyer found her from all those years ago in 1883. It was apparently the thing that she would most commonly say wherever she went was just pray for the police.
00:20:21
Speaker
the primary area I'd emphasise of being able to support the police is pray for the police, don't just pray for the CPA, pray for the police in general and particularly around the challenges for senior leaders in the police and the very difficult decisions they have to make.
00:20:38
Speaker
and also for frontline officers and staff, for those dealing with the very challenges of operational policing, and particularly around safety, I think, for police officers, there are a lot of challenges out there in that area. And naturally, we'd all understand that policing is not a profession without risk, that's for sure.
00:21:07
Speaker
And so I think safety for police officers and staff is hugely important and in CPA terms that we would just continue to be that light, that salt and light within the police service. We've been doing this for nearly 140 years now and just
00:21:29
Speaker
aware of the legacy there of those who've gone before and that we would continue in that way and continue to be a sort of relevant voice for Christianity within policing and to be a real support and encouragement to Christians as they come into policing and that they would
00:21:50
Speaker
feel equipped and encouraged for the Christian life within the workplace that is policing and that they would have that same sense. I hope that I had and the many others have had that their Christian faith is very much compatible with policing.
00:22:07
Speaker
Wonderful.
Conclusion and Call to Prayer
00:22:08
Speaker
Well, Graham, this has been an absolutely fascinating interview. It's been fascinating just to dive a bit more deeply into the CPA and what you do and the challenges and opportunities and whatnot. Do encourage people to be praying for police and also people in the other services in there.
00:22:23
Speaker
in their churches, it could be a tough thing on the front line. But thank you for taking the time today. It's been great having you on the show. And Claire, it's been great having you in the guest presenting kind of hot seat. Thank you for asking great questions from your side of the studio. And to all of you listening at home, I hope you've enjoyed that. We'll be back in two weeks time with another guest, another episode of Pep Talk. In the meantime, have a great fortnight. Bye for now.