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31. Navigating Life After Ballet with Elise & Stuart Lauer
124 Plays1 month ago
Elise & Stuart Lauer are former professional ballet dancers that have since left the dance world to work full time in their side gigs. We met when dancing with Ballet Tucson and Elise and Stuart really took me under their wing when I was beginning my professional career.
In this episode, we chat all about how Elise and Stuart met at ballet boarding school and their transition into a professional dance career. We reminisce about our memories working together at Ballet Tucson, especially the lessons we learned from working with ABT legends John Gardner and Amanda McKerrow. Elise and Stuart share what led them to retire from dance and the path that led them to shift careers outside of the ballet world completely. We also get into their relationship with ballet today and the struggle we feel with enjoying dance recreationally when it used to be all-consuming.
Relationships are complicated, including the relationship we have with ballet. Elise and Stuart are incredibly transparent and open with their stories, which really helped validate many of the feelings I have had throughout my career and beyond.
Key Moments:
- How Elise and Stuart met at Virginia School of the Arts [1:56]
- Growing up together and getting their first contract at Milwaukee Ballet [8:37]
- Making the move to Ballet Tucson after not getting their contracts renewed [11:56]
- What led to Stuart and Elise staying at Ballet Tucson for the duration of their careers [16:18]
- What led to their retirement from professional ballet [29:59]
- Their transition into new careers outside of the ballet world [43:36]
- Stuart and Elise’s relationship with ballet today [53:38]
- Their children’s relationship to dance (and how they would feel about them pursuing dance as a career) [1:01:13]
- Their biggest pieces of advice for dancers pursuing a career [1:07:56]
Connect with Stuart and Elise:
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/eliselauer
IRON JOHN’S BREWING: www.ironjohnsbrewing.com
JUNIPER: www.junipertucson.com
Links and Resources:
Get your copy of The Intentional Career Handbook
Set up ticketing for your next event with DRT (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Caitlin's Career Transition
00:00:00
Speaker
I was like at my store and I was working the morning rush and it was almost time for me to clock out to go to ballet. And I had this thought where I was like, man, I really wish I could just stay here. And I was like, I've never had that thought before. And so I kind of went to ballet with that and I thought about it more. And after a few weeks, I realized I was like, I think this is like time for me to call it before I start to resent ballet.
00:00:25
Speaker
for making me feel sometimes how I felt in the studio. Like I loved ballet so much. It was my whole world, but it really, you know, it takes a ah mental toll sometimes. Some dancers don't suffer from the negative mental side of it, but I was not one of those dancers. And I felt myself really needing to be in a workspace that me as a person was valued more than the amount of space I took up in a room.
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need Succeed in a dance career on your turns.
Elise and Stewart's Ballet Journey
00:01:25
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Elise and Stewart Lauer. Elise and Stewart are former professional ballet dancers that have since left the dance world to work full time on their side gigs. We met when Dancing with Bally Tucson and Elise and Stewart really took me under their wing when I was beginning my professional career. I have such respect and admiration for both of you, and I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today.
00:01:50
Speaker
Oh, thank you. You're having us. Of course. We're excited. I want to start from the beginning of your story together. And I'd love to hear how you guys met. I guess I'll start and then Stuart can kind of chime in. So we actually met at boarding school for ballet for myself. My last two years of high school was at the Virginia School of the Arts, which is a school that doesn't exist anymore. It's shut down. But it was a boarding school for ballet. And that's where I met Stuart for the first time. And he had come from not really a boarding school, but an arts high school in California, and then come to Virginia. We both got jobs with Milwaukee Ballet and their second company. That's where our romance started. and's yes yeah And then from there, we got jobs with Ballet Tucson. that You were telling your story about getting a job with Ballet Tucson. I was like, it's so similar to ours where it was like, we didn't get our contracts renewed. And it was a super big bummer and we were not prepared for it. Nothing about that season let us know that that was going to happen.
00:02:43
Speaker
But Bali Tucson was still holding auditions in June, so we auditioned, got jobs, and then moved across the country. wow Being in Tucson, obviously, like you did in your side gig episode, we had to work side jobs and you know ultimately falling in love with those side gigs is what brought us to where we are today. yeah I want to get to that, but I want to dive a little bit deeper into like you guys' meetings. You met in school, but you didn't start dating until you got to Milwaukee? Mm-hmm, correct. So you just happened to end up in the same place together, or were you friends?
Dancing Dynamics and Relationship
00:03:13
Speaker
Yeah, we were best friends. The school was pretty small. We were best friends, and a group of us went to the Milwaukee Ballet Summer Program and got contracts with the second company in the summer program. Four of us from our high school all got the same contract and we all ended up moving in together to try and save, you know, those first entry levels, trainee position jobs, don't really pay. So it was like, we basically pooled our money to move into one apartment. We even did stuff like pool our groceries. We had ah like an envelope that was like, this is what we can spend on food. This is what we can spend on rent. We were really good friends and then we ended up ending up together over course of being there a couple of months. And yeah, that's kind of how it all started.
00:03:50
Speaker
Had either of you ever dated a dancer before? Both of us. Yeah. Yeah. In high school. It was like nothing serious or anything, but it was we both had high school girlfriends, boyfriends kind of thing. And especially as weird that our school was so small in Virginia, we knew a lot about each other before, you know, we were together because, you know, we were in the same school for junior and senior year.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, ballet classes together, dormitory together, it just like very close proximity with everyone, you get real personal in those kinds of environments. Was it difficult dancing with your partner? Did you guys feel like you got a lot in those scenarios? Or did you ever fight? Oh, yeah, there were some arguments for sure. But I would say Stewart and I didn't. I mean, we would get like if there was like a partnering class or something, we would get partnered together. But I'm very tall, I'm 5'11", so my experience in the ballet world was a little bit of partnering, but more soloist work. So we would get paired together, but not a lot. It it wasn't until about the last two years we were dancing that we ended up working together on stage. Before that, it was almost
00:04:48
Speaker
exclusively I danced with somebody else. and so But yeah, we had our moments of frustration. It's hard because Elise is a very technical dancer and very skilled. She was always on her leg naturally, and so her letting up a little bit of the control and the partnering. But once she did, like we worked really well together. I think our our final thing we did together was continue. It went extremely well, and we had a great time on stage together. It was a great kind of end of our career together as dancers. so Yeah, it's interesting because like we trust each other so much in our personal life and in that dance space I always found it was like I felt so protective over myself and our relationship that sometimes the littlest inconvenience if something would go wrong would seem
00:05:30
Speaker
So huge in the moment where I'd be like, why did that happen that way? And he's like, whoa, we can just do it again. it's fine whereas Like when you have that personal relationship, there's a level of, I don't know, expectation that you have that doesn't exist with somebody that you might not know as well. You're perfectionist in a different way.
Career Challenges and Growth
00:05:49
Speaker
And for me, my strongest suit as the dancer was the partnering side. I had some moments where I took things personally because that was basically what got me to move up in the ranks was being a consistently good partner, not always the best technician or dancer. It was more the partnering side. I think really helped me move along. So I took some things personally, sometimes comments and stuff like that. But at the end of the day, we'd get home and we'd be like, well, that was ridiculous. That was That was a nothing fight. Tomorrow, let's do it better.
00:06:17
Speaker
I think that's cool that you could have that separation of like, okay, we're out of the dance space now. Now we're in our home and we're back to our normal selves and we can just be like, okay, let's like take it down a notch and get some perspective. And at Ballet Tucson we worked with, it felt like good cop, bad cop kind of scenario bosses there where we had John Amanda who were so nurturing and encouraging and he felt open. But you also at the end of the day knew a lot of the decision making was coming from Marybeth and Shaco and he wanted to do it so well in front of them. That is what caused a lot of partnering issues at Valley Tucson was, it was like, not always were the people that were at the top in the room. And so it was like, you were always trying to put on that show in the studio because you had like one chance to prove that you could do it again. I think that was a different environment than we'd, I'd been in in the past, especially because they gave so few people a chance to do the partnering roles. You know, I always felt responsible of like, you know, I need to make sure it goes extremely well for Elise. So she gets a chance to do it again.
00:07:11
Speaker
And at the end of the day, now that we're moved past it and stuff like that, I didn't even stop to think to ask, like do you want to be doing these partnering roles? you know It was like and just seemed like you know you think everybody wants the same thing as you. But you know there's a lot of people that just want to do a solo. There's a lot of people who love doing core work. And I think that's awesome, being a part of something. But yeah, I think partnering had its its moments where it was great and also was not always the best. i mean ill I'll just say, like if there was ever any opportunity for partnering,
00:07:38
Speaker
The best case scenario was if I got partnered with Stewart because I trusted him. A lot of that just comes from you know growing up and being tall. like Now being tall in ballet is really common, but when I was growing up, that was always the number one thing that brought up. So I'd walk into a space, walk into an audition. The first thing they would comment on is my size. So that was always in the back of my head my entire career was anytime I had to do partnering was like, is this going to look funny? Is this going to be a problem? I'm so tall.
00:08:03
Speaker
Are they gonna be able to lift me? Like what is this gonna look like on stage? All of that. But then when I got partnered with Stewart, I was like, dude, I love this guy. I trust him. I know he's not gonna let me fall. It's gonna be fine. So when I did get partnering stuff and it was with Stewart, it was like totally comfortable. But anybody else, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a disaster. And I was just like mentally preparing for the worst because I had been set up that way my whole childhood. You hear something enough times you're gonna start to believe it. 100%. Going to boarding school and then going straight into your careers Do you guys feel like you grew up faster? 100 percent. And I think that level is also spread out amongst the people who left at 14 versus the people who left at 17. I can think back at Virginia School of the Arts, where there was kids showing up that just did their senior year there and like they had never done their own laundry and all the stuff that like I'd already been on my own for all that time. It's wild to place yourself in a scenario where your chaperones are just college students and they're barely older than you.
00:09:00
Speaker
and you don't realize it at the time that you're a kid and it does, it forced us all to like kind of mature and I'd say much more so at Virginia School of the Arts because everybody was on a track for trying to have a professional career. And so everybody was so focused and determined that we kind of helped age each other quicker by pushing each other to have the same goals at once. VSA was very harsh on kids who didn't push themselves. They kind of got alienated and things happened there and it was definitely set up almost in the same constraints as a ballet company where people who put in the most effort and time, they kind of beat that into us. And that's not always true, but it was, you know, I think a lot of kids were very mature for their age at 18 and went in their first job right out of VSA, just ready to take it on. And I do feel that way. Like I see young kids now, 14 year olds. And I'm like, they're much different 14 than me. When I was going to school in LA, I was taking the train by myself to downtown LA. And then I was going to high school and I was dancing.
00:09:57
Speaker
And I was taking it back and responsible for all my own homework on the train and doing everything. And I think about us with kids now. And I'm like, I don't think our kids will be at that same place in life when they hit that age. And I don't regret losing that childhood feel. We still had a lot of fun. We broke a lot of rules and we test the boundaries of the school. We had the best time with our peers. We had our worst times together being a teenager and going through some of the most dangerous mental state you can have as being a kid.
00:10:26
Speaker
and being away from home. And so like, I think everybody kind of stepped in and we were all each other's like therapy. And it was just a great experience to be in ah an environment that was so, you know, I think common goals would really help people out. So it was a good time. Yeah. I'm super grateful for the experience. Like I grew up in Michigan, not far from where you grew up in a small town called Ypsilanti. I was at the same studio, didn't really branch out of that. I did Chiquetti training. My ballet experience was all practicing for the next examination.
00:10:53
Speaker
So you could move up to the next level. So when I got to VSA, I didn't realize how naive I was about the dance world. I thought that I had it all figured out because I had gotten good scores on my exams. I am so grateful for that experience. It was kind of a slap in the face where I was like, wait, what? There's different ways to do this. You mean it's fine if it looks this way or it's okay if it's not?
00:11:15
Speaker
100% perfect every time, like I'm not being scored every second of the day. I just remember feeling so shocked that the dance world looked the way that it did outside of my little bubble. I think if I had stayed at my studio in Michigan, I would have never made it in a dance career because of the little bubble that it created. Like I needed to leave and experience something else in order to grow.
00:11:38
Speaker
Yeah, even when you guys said that you were like pooling your grocery money and everything like that. I mean, like, I don't think very many 18 year olds are that responsible to like, think of things that strategically, like you said, you had that community, which is so important to kind of grow up together. Yeah. Going to Milwaukee, you didn't really know that you work and have your contracts renewed. That was a surprise. Was that really stressful? Like, I'm assuming you wanted to go somewhere together. So try to make sure you could get a job at the same place. How was that? For me, my first year in Milwaukee, I got in honorary trainee position. I remember when Jackie was talking about that in your interview with her that her first season was honorary. And so then my second season, I got paid and you can get two years paid. And there was nothing about my casting that season. I got to dance on stage a lot with the main company. And so when I got my letter saying that my contract was not going to be renewed, it was a complete shock.
00:12:27
Speaker
I mean Stuart can talk about his experience, but everything was pointing towards, even from like staff members telling him that he was going to get a job with the main company. So we thought for sure we were going to have another year there. And part of that whole naiveness, like we didn't really put an emphasis on auditioning that year. And so we were really like with our hands tied. For myself, when I didn't get my contract renewed, it broke my heart because we loved dancing there so much. I took it as a sign of like, well, this is as far as you can go. I guess that's it. And, you know, reluctantly we did the audition in Tucson.
00:12:59
Speaker
And when I got the contract for there, it was an apprentice position. I wasn't humbled enough to just take the job. I was almost offended where I was like, I was with a second company of a top 10 ballet company. And then I'm going to this regional ballet company that doesn't really have their name. Their name's not really out there yet. And in the company, a lot of the students were dancing in our company shows.
00:13:20
Speaker
and I almost felt offended a little bit that I got essentially a lower offer than what I was at Milwaukee and I almost didn't take the job. I don't remember if it was like stir-contest say it was either him telling my mom or my mom telling him that like if you don't force her to go she's never going to dance again.
00:13:36
Speaker
But yeah, Stuart can kind of continue on that because I don't even remember. There's pockets of the ballet memory that like don't exist anymore for me. yeah I think because we started dating halfway through our first year at Milwaukee Ballet, we were really only together a year and a half when our contracts were up. We knew we were serious together.
00:13:53
Speaker
But we weren't at that point already where it was a must have to be in the same company. We were still so both career driven to try and like, make it work. And yeah, at Milwaukee Bell, I had like, they had me fill out my shoe order for the next year. I had multiple company dancers tell me that i they heard I got the job just to find out that it was contingent upon one dancer returning.
00:14:14
Speaker
and he ended up staying and so I didn't get the position and then it went to go as far as like I thought I landed a job at Joffrey and I was super excited because I was like that's close to Milwaukee she's gonna get renewed and then the same thing happened I had a contract fall through about six weeks before the season started in Joffrey the same thing about Tucson as the last resort. It was devastating when she didn't get renewed for another year, but I was devastated as well. So when we got the positions at Valley Tucson, it wasn't ideal, but it was like, you know, it's a chance for us to you know grow our resume. And then that's when we heard John and Amanda were there and that they were exceptional to work with. And I was super excited, but she was not at first. And I did, I called her mom and was like,
00:14:51
Speaker
I think her career will end if she stops right here. You might want to do another push to see if you can get her to come out. And it was just so random. My dad and stepmom had moved to Tucson three years before. So I was like, I have family there. We have a place. It's not like moving to a brand new city with no apartment, anything like that. No place to stay, which is very common. We've done it before. So we had a little bit of a safety net this time around and.
00:15:13
Speaker
got to come out early look for other jobs apartment hunting all that good stuff who knows where time would have gone but without us taking a risk and moving to tucson it might not have ended from where we are today of being married and having kids and i think we're together 20 years now and without that we wouldn't have had that taking a chance on ballet tucson is really what made us end up together for forever yeah so i'm grateful for yeah do You know, that bad time where it was like, we're pissed. This is not what we wanted. And when we moved to Tucson, I really was high on the horse. Same thing. I thought I was getting a good job before. And I was like, I'm going to be there two years. It's all I want out of this place.
Mentorship and Life Lessons
00:15:47
Speaker
And then I want to be back. You know, I wanted to go to Salt Lake. I wanted a different career. And I think opportunity started presenting a itself at Bali Tucson. We got to dance a lot of really fun stuff and great stuff and work with great people. yeah So that transition was really a negative dark time and a super positive time once it started to unfold.
00:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, what made you stay? You kind of touched on it, but I'd love to hear more about what made you stay there for your career. One of the big things, Jenna Johnson, I think is a very underrated ballerina. I started getting partnering opportunities with her my second year in the company as her husband started to transition more to like our ballet master. Working with somebody so incredibly gifted, it really started to elevate my ability to develop as an artist, not just a dancer. I was more an athletic dancer than had the technique so she really helped ground me into like work on your artistry more too if you want to improve more and not just like try and push so hard. Working with her really changed things and then John and Amanda really
00:16:46
Speaker
were a big, they wanted me to just keep getting more and more opportunity. And every time I came off stage or something happened, I got the positive and the negative from them on how I could improve and what I could do with my career. And they never stopped like coaching throughout the time they were there. So I just felt like I was always like getting to the next step of what I wanted to do with each role. In the end, after they left, felt like I finally got a chance to be like new works were starting to be created on me by Danielle when he stepped away.
00:17:14
Speaker
and then that fulfilled me even more where I was like these are brand new ballets that I get a chance to like put a little bit of a touch on you know see where I could develop within that. I really didn't hit any good artistry in my dancing until probably the last two years I was doing it. I didn't make it that long I think it was 28. I see original tapes and stuff like that and the acting side of it really wasn't there. It was you know more just trying to jump high and turn a lot and do all that and there wasn't the finishes that came with learning from somebody who's so good and so mature. So I think Jenna was a driving factor. And then Elise and I also were, we were actually in a company where we were in such different studios and different things going on. We kind of got to live our own dance day differently. And it was really nice because we'd see each other all day, but we also had different things going on. We were hitting different
00:17:59
Speaker
know stages of our career at the same time. And it was really cool to be in the same company. And I felt like we had pretty good job security there. It wasn't like every year we were like, are we going to get renewed? Are we going to get cut this year? That Bali Tucson provided that stability and ability to have growth within. Yeah. And I think like for me, the people from our time there, I think a lot of them will say that the reason that they stayed is John and Amanda. They saw this unique group of dancers where like no dancer was alike in that company. Everybody was so different and it was really interesting. Like the only dancers that were the same were the ones that grew up through the school. They gave opportunities to people that the other artistic staff were just not doing. I think that was a huge pull was because they were like, well, we're going to do this one tutor piece and this person is going to be really good for this role. And I know that if it had been cast by anybody else, that person would have never gotten that opportunity.
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, just their approach and their positivity and the way that they pushed dancers to not dance like anybody else, but just the best version of themselves. And they just made it so much fun. Even on the hard days, it was so much fun because they had lived that in their own career. And they came to it from this perspective of like, this is a job at the end of the day, but you know, you have to remember every day why you're doing it.
00:19:10
Speaker
even if it's a bad day at the end of the day go home and be like maybe that sucked a little bit but you know I'm gonna go to sleep and I'm gonna wake up and that thing that sucked can stay in yesterday so we can show up today and have it be a whole new day and yeah they really brought this freshness to the studio and I got a lot of opportunities because of them that I think I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
00:19:30
Speaker
Yeah, they had such a good pulse on what everyone needed on that day. Like, they knew when you needed to be pushed a little more. They knew when you needed a break. They knew when they need to crack a joke. Like, I loved how they had nicknames for everyone. That was always so cool. Like, you just felt like I'm not just another dancer. Like, I really felt special in their presence.
00:19:49
Speaker
yeah Yeah, they are so amazing. And you're like, they are principal soloists with ABT. And you're just like, but they see me. Yeah. Like there's no reason why they shouldn't even care. Yeah, exactly. You're like, yeah, that changed the course of like, just the way I approach even like teaching just that feeling you got of like, I wanted to work so hard for them. They didn't make me feel like bad for falling out of a pirouette. I just always felt like I can try that again. I didn't feel scared. It was really special and really unique that they were in Tucson of all places.
00:20:17
Speaker
yeah the people that got to experience that, like how lucky are we that we got to experience that, yeah you know? And I think John, he did take into like nurturing people and helping them, but he also wasn't trying to push people out the door either to different things. He wanted to see Ballet Tucson grow. John and I used to go get breakfast like every Sunday and we'd talk and he'd tell me about opportunities I could have elsewhere, but then say, I think you should stick it out here. Keep pushing. And I think he's like, this company has a lot of room for growth.
00:20:45
Speaker
It could really be something someday. At that point, there was still a chance of them taking over everything. So I think he was trying to walk in people to keep it going if that was what ended up happening. John was somebody who'd call me, push me, be like, hey, this was a good rehearsal. This was not even to the point of like, I'm a big guy and I had to do Bluebird. I think it was like my fifth year there.
00:21:06
Speaker
and I'm not super great at the Petito Legro, and he pushed me even more, and made me do the pre-sales from the other opposite corner, which was worse, all the way up until the show time, because he's like, by the end, you're going to be equal both sides, and you can pick, and it really like messed with me, because I was like, this is so bad, I don't want to go on stage like this. Why is he doing this to me? It was the only time that I actually improved in my Petito Legro once I was actually professional.
00:21:30
Speaker
because it was just not something I got opportunity on. It was like such a John moment for him to be like, you can do this. just You actually have to put in the work if you want to get better. and I was like, okay, sounds good. As everybody knows that knows John, he pushes himself every day to the max. He's had a lot of ups and downs over the last couple of years and he still comes out of stuff like just being John, doing his crazy push-ups and run around, listening to the same six songs every morning. and You know, you get used to that energy and that vibe. And I think that's a dying moment of the ballet twosome thing for me was when he wasn't there showing up anymore, the energy in the morning felt like, oh, why are we all in this room? It was already hard for me to get through class. And then to have that, like, not positivity be in the room, it was like, man, I really don't want to be here in the morning anymore. I loved rehearsal. So I always I think would love being on stage, but getting through class part of the day was really a part without John around.
00:22:26
Speaker
Yeah, I know he would come in in the morning and and play, like you said, the same songs and run around the room and do his pushups and his pull ups. And I always remember him saying, like, during, please, he'd just be like. aren't we so lucky to get to do plies for our job today? And it was like, you're so right. Because I would be like, Oh gosh, it's the sixth day of the week. My body's killing me. I'm so tired. I've also worked my other jobs 40 hours this week. Like I'm tired. And you'd be like, you know what, we are really lucky. Like that's cool. And that was just the best feeling. And I always try to remember that I would tell myself that if I was having a bad day, like I am so lucky to get to do plies for my job right now.
00:23:00
Speaker
And I think the thing that's overlooked on Amanda's side is the subtlety to her coaching was so brilliant where she could just give you one little tweak and you actually like could feel better about how you're doing it. She had full release of her body when she was dancing. Her head wasn't stuck ever. You watch old tapes of her. She was just free out there all the time. And I think some people she was able to actually get that into them, which is really hard to do when you spent your whole life trying to be perfect and hit the right angle and all that. And Amanda just had that ability to come in and take you off your leg a little bit, make you feel uncomfortable, but then make you realize that you were dancing better and performing better. Also being very respectful, you know, she had the best way
00:23:41
Speaker
of I think getting the court of ballet for somebody who didn't do it that much to actually want to participate and do it together. And so working with Amanda was a great experience. So it's amazingly shocking sometimes she would just throw on her pointe shoes and do something spectacular and you'd be like, why am I here? Yeah, yeah i could I could try basic a thousand times to do that same thing. Were you there when we did Swan Lake? That was my last show with Valley Tucson. That was such a cool core experience working with Amanda because I remember like literally tears on stage in the fourth act doing Swan Corp. It was intense. It felt so connected. One of my favorite memories of Amanda was she was trying to get Jenna to dive off at the end. I'm like down below because I'm supposed to like be on the mat to make sure nobody gets hurt. And I just see Amanda run up there and fly off of there in like this perfect position. And she just looked amazing and like no fear.
00:24:35
Speaker
And I was like, done that a couple of times in your life. And she was like, a lot. And it was just spectacular. Time slowed down. Yeah. Things were all happening. Then she dove off and it was like, like everything just slowed down. It was awesome. Yeah. And just like such an amazing dancer, but just so sweet. Like she'd be like, take your point. She's off or she would always advocate for us. Like they need a break. You guys need a five. She was always like very good about.
00:25:01
Speaker
being hyper aware of where everyone was emotionally. And I think some people don't realize that when they were at ABT, they didn't have all the stuff that they have now. They did at the end of their career, like the PT and the health insurance and all that stuff. And John was actually, I think he was the Agma rep for a while and trying to get dancers more help with that type of thing. John has crazy stories about being like,
00:25:26
Speaker
let go from abt because of an issue we had and then just being able to rejoin and it wasn't like the security they have now and they would get worked to death at abt in those early years it was like they would take a train you know across the country and stop in all these different cities they'd be dancing in theaters that were only 50 degrees and nobody had their backs kind of thing and so i think they really took that personally and instead of repeating history they wanted to improve it for the younger dancers it was funny because we came from the opposite we just came from milwaukee where like if you didn't get a five the rep basically
00:26:02
Speaker
yelled stop and everybody just exited the room and there was like PT in the basement every day and there was doctors would come in and check on you and so we were used to that and then going the opposite direction where then we had to be advocated for by John Amanda for health issues and I know I danced several times extremely injured at Pali Tucson because I never had anybody to understudy even if I did they didn't trust that person they'd be like you have to push through I think I would have gotten a little bit more longevity out of my body if that hadn't been the case. And even with John Amanda, there was only so much they could do where they would be like, we know that there's nobody else that is ready to do this. So how do you feel? And I think in some way they were trying to get me to open up more. But, you know, I didn't want to admit defeat. So I'd always be like, oh, I can push through. I can make this work long term. Why is this? is There needs to be more people out there like them, you know, really asking you the questions of are you sure? You know, is it worth it? Also explaining that it leads to long term injuries when you're being young and dumb.
00:27:01
Speaker
I think so many of us have chronic pain or different things now because of those stupid moments of, yeah, I can push through. I can make this work. And I don't see that going away. I'm not in the dance industry anymore at all. I don't not around it, but what do I hear from friends that have their kids in it or what I see? I still have a brother and sister that are involved in it. Sounds like things are just still happening the exact same way in a lot of places. Change is so slow. And I think even places where they're maybe more cognizant of it and want to make a change, maybe the smaller company or there's not a budget and they're just like, they don't have the funds. What do we do? And then you're really stuck. That's really frustrating to see that in the dance world because we have so much more knowledge now and we know the
Retirement Decisions and New Careers
00:27:40
Speaker
research is there. So there's really no excuse to push dancers in this way. That's detrimental for their whole life. But as a dancer, like when you're young, you think you're invincible. Yeah.
00:27:49
Speaker
Or even if you don't, you're scared. You're like, I have to do it. You don't feel like you have a choice, even though you always do. Like I want dancers to know you always have a choice, but you don't feel like you do. You feel like, well, if I don't do this, what if I get fired? And I kind of say at this point, like, what's the choice you want to make? Is it worth giving yourself a lifelong injury for this? One role you're going to do, but at the time that's a very hard.
00:28:11
Speaker
yeah decision to make. Yeah, 100% it is. Yeah, and sometimes artistic staff doesn't allow you to make a different choice either. Yeah, it's like, what do you do? Do you just walk out? yeah You're very stuck. There is so much dancers need to learn as they pursue a professional dance career. It can be completely overwhelming. Where do you even start? With your intention. To me, this is the first step in defining success on your terms.
00:28:36
Speaker
Once you have an intention for your career based on your core values, you can begin to hone in on a strategy to make your goals a reality. But without it, you will always feel out of alignment, out of control, and ultimately unfulfilled in your career. So how do you figure out what success means to you? With the Brainy Ballerina Intentional Career Handbook. This is not just your ordinary book. The Intentional Career Handbook walks you through it everything you need to think about as you embark on your dance career.
00:29:06
Speaker
With over 50 guided question prompts, you will dive deep into determining what really matters to see you in a dance career based on your individual core values. By the end of this handbook, you will not only be crystal clear on your goals, but in the mindset you need to make it happen. Tap the link in the show notes to download your copy today and start pursuing your dance career with intention.
00:29:30
Speaker
Did you retire at the same time no i retired a year before steart did speaking of side gigs and stuff when i moved to tucson getting an apartment by myself i was like i need to find a job that works either before nine a m or after four p m i tried finding a server job that was really hard because they either wanted you in at three or They wanted you all day on the weekend and that just was not possible with Ballet Tucson. I ended up finding a job with Starbucks because I was like, oh, they open at four zero in the morning so I can work like a whole shift before or there's open late so I can work a whole shift at the end of the day. So I ended up working part time for Starbucks the entire time I was at Ballet Tucson. So from like 2006 to 2013.
00:30:11
Speaker
And I ended up becoming a shift supervisor. And there was like a group of us ballerinas that worked at the same store kind of same situation. And it was great job stability. You could work a whole shift. You could work enough hours during the week to pay your rent or to supplement the income you were making at the ballet. I didn't feel like we were sacrificing any, I mean, although we were up crazy early in the morning, it felt like we were balancing it pretty well, but it ended up being to the point where like, I,
00:30:38
Speaker
kind of fell in love with the culture at Starbucks and I loved that I could show up to work and they saw me for me and not me for how much space I took up in the room. For me that was so refreshing and it got to a point my last season where I kind of had this moment where I was like at my store and I was working the morning rush and it was almost time for me to clock out to go to ballet and I had this thought where I was like, man, I really wish I could just stay here. And I was like,
00:31:08
Speaker
I've never had that thought before and so I kind of went to ballet with that and I thought about it more and after a few weeks I realized I was like I think this is like time for me to call it before I start to resent ballet for making me feel sometimes how I felt in the studio like I loved ballet so much it was my whole world but it really you know it takes some mental toll sometimes some dancers don't suffer from the negative mental side of it but I was not one of those dancers And I felt myself really needing to be in a workspace that me as a person was valued more than the amount of space I took up in a room. Yeah. So I left in 2013 and it was really, really hard for me to say it out loud. I remember the day that I told Mary Beth, our director, leading up to me telling her I was in full panic attack, like just sobbing and people are in the studio looking at me like, what is
00:31:58
Speaker
going on with this girl. Well, and you're very, you're always very even keeled. Like you're not someone who would have a lot of emotional moments like that. So that's yeah out of character for you. And I was just I was more terrified. Like I was so I was confident in my decision, but I was terrified and that they were going to try and convince me to stay and I wouldn't be able to say no.
00:32:20
Speaker
And that didn't happen at all. So I got in there and I was crying and I said that and they were like, you seem pretty upset about this. Are you sure? And I was like, yeah, no, like I feel relieved. I'm just like terrified to tell you that this is what yeah needs to happen for me. So I finished out that season. I also stopped getting nervous going on stage. Like there was one performance where I was like, I'm not even nervous to be out here. And this has never happened to me before.
00:32:44
Speaker
I think that's part of like the thrill of dance and performing is the adrenaline rush you get from those nerves. I wanted to leave ballet in a place where I could have it be like this happy pocket of my life. Like if I could control it, I wanted to control it in that moment and not have it be something that got taken away from me, which not a lot of dancers get the opportunity for. I was like, if I'm going to have a choice in this, like this is the time for me to go. Yeah. I finished out the season and thought I wanted to stay involved in ballet Tucson and Barry Beth offered me A job as like costume. She called it costume mistress, but basically I would organize for the shows the costumes to transport them from storage to
00:33:24
Speaker
the studio to the theater and all of that. And I was happy to do it, but it was interesting because she offered me my same pay for my dance contract to do it. And I was like, this is interesting. So the money is here. And there's so many dancers not getting paid. It really just didn't sit well with me. And she told me it was a job that I could do kind of on my own time. And it very quickly became something that that was not accurate. I was getting phone calls all the time, like, where are you? Why aren't you here?
00:33:50
Speaker
There wasn't enough guidelines and I felt like I was going to be married to that job versus what she had presented it to me as, so I ended up having to step away and not participate at all with the ballet season.
00:34:02
Speaker
But then I just continued on with Starbucks after that. And my goal was, you know, I love this company, I believe in what it stands for, at least at the time. A year after I left ballet, I got promoted to store manager and had my own store and I stayed a store manager for seven more years. And then Stewart, so you retired the year after? I retired the year after. I did not have intention to stop.
00:34:21
Speaker
I had like a cold turkey type mental breakdown where I was like I was in the studio and so much had happened after John Amanda left but I was having like I said before I was having these great opportunities with Danielle who's creating stuff that I was just so proud of. We were working on something really great and then I went into the next studio and I was working on a piece that I just couldn't stand being in And I realized like even at the level I'd gotten to and was considered the top principal dancer at the time, I couldn't use my voice to not do that work. And then all of a sudden they wanted to put me in this high dyed unitard with huge bell bottoms on it. And it was like my brain broke. I was like,
00:35:01
Speaker
why am I doing this? You know, if this is just nothing that I want to be going on stage with, I went and talked to the artistic staff and was like, I just can't do this piece. It's like breaking me. And they're like, well, you have to do it or you're not like in the company anymore. And I was like, well, sounds like I'm not doing it. But they're like, but you got to finish the show. And I was like, of course I'll finish the show. I put a lot of work into my the other stuff. And it's not in my personality to be that like,
00:35:29
Speaker
As a dancer, you learn to conform and be a good employee and work really hard. But to have something so stupid be the thing that was like, I just don't want to do this. I don't think I was done with the actual like performing side of it or any of that. It was just, it was the realization that no matter how hard I pushed there and how much I gave to the company, it wasn't going to ever give me a voice.
00:35:51
Speaker
And the ability to to make decisions that I thought were safe for myself or slow stuff down. As somebody who's getting older, I was still like, we do our mix rep shows and we'd have 10 pieces and I'd be an eight still. It just wasn't lining up with being able to maintain. I think in my first seven years dancing, I never missed a show series. And then I started missing them because I was like getting so injured.
00:36:14
Speaker
And so all that started to compile into this. So basically I went from fully planning on returning to the next year to not dancing within. It was like a week's time. Yeah, Danielle stepped in and did my final part in that piece. I didn't want to be in, helped me out there. Mary Beth changed her tone once it came to negotiations again for the next year.
00:36:33
Speaker
And she really wanted me to stay and I just said, if I stay, I need to not be able to work with this 1 person on staff that's doing these choreographies because I was like, I've done the same 7 steps and every piece of theirs for the last 8 years.
00:36:49
Speaker
And I don't want to have to learn those same seven steps over and over again, just in a different order for the same outcome. And she's like, it sounds like it's time for you to move on. And I was like, that sounds about right. And so we kind of went our separate ways. And it was a weird exodus at that time, because I think I'd been around a lot of the same people for so many years. And I was, I hope I was a positive person in the studio a lot and kind of was like helping people transition to different roles, do stuff, building people up.
00:37:16
Speaker
I had like five people come to me and be like, you left, I'm going to leave. And I was like, think about this. Like, are you sure? yeah It's not a courage thing. Or like, are you sure you're done? Out of those, I think it was seven people, five people just ended up not dancing anymore. It was seeing that things weren't that great there after people left. And, you know, and that is like, that's the hardest thing about transitioning out of dance is that fear of, what do I do next? And both of us are extremely lucky that we already had started to have opportunities outside of the dance world to make our transition go more smoothly than some others. But I think some people hang on a little bit too long, just out of fear, not out of passion anymore. Unfortunately, ballet wasn't my first passion. I learned to love it through opportunity and drive and
00:38:03
Speaker
I always liked being challenged and I was like, I think I was the worst at as a kid. So it was like, this is my thing that I need to push to be better at. I was pretty sad, but I also had so much relief once it was done and over or it was like, I can't believe it went on. I let things get so bad there. Tried to stay positive, but I don't have regrets on it. It's just, I think more people need to talk about how the end comes and you're like, how do I deal with that transition out and what goes on?
00:38:32
Speaker
And everybody's got their thing, like my brother and sister both were professional ballet dancers. And their stories are so different than Alisa and I's where they didn't already start that transition to something new. You know, they had to do the whole rebuild out of nothing. I think that makes it a little bit more scary to make that leap into something new. And straightly for me, I ended up, you worked at the company I ended up owning before I worked there.
00:38:58
Speaker
And that is the wildest thing to think about. Yeah, you you got him the job there and now he owns the place. Isn't that crazy? And it's so funny because that restaurant was literally opening when I moved there. like I remember the first month we were on layoff, I thought I was going to have a job and I didn't have a job because it didn't open in time.
00:39:15
Speaker
And so I remember I was just kind of like, well, I'll just hang out for a month. But yeah, I was like brand new. And how crazy is that? So yeah, let's talk about well, before we get into that, I want to say like, you kind of said I hope that I was a positive presence. And I feel like both of you have always been such positive presences. You always felt like the mom and dad. Yeah, of the group you know, like very nurturing. I felt like I could talk to both of you.
00:39:37
Speaker
about things I was going through. Even though you were senior dancers in the company, I was like, I feel like I can open up. and I remember sitting in the lunch area, you know, and having like conversations on hard days and stuff. So that was always really nice. When it comes to retiring, I feel like when you're in it, you're like, I don't know what I'm going to. But then when you know, you just know, yeah then it's sometimes shocking how quickly it comes on. And you're just like, I'm ready.
00:40:01
Speaker
That being said about the nurturing parent type figures, I thought the best thing I could do at Valley Tucson was get more people, more opportunity. Because the thing I learned being in a smaller regional company was, and even at Milwaukee Valley, sometimes people got opportunities that made them instantly better.
00:40:16
Speaker
And I feel like more places need to give more dancers opportunities and let them fail. Let them go out there and crash and burn. And yeah, it looks like a bad thing for a little bit, but some people I saw completely just elevate their entire career by one opportunity. I think that's a negative thing that keeps happening. Like you gotta prove yourself in the studio. There's game time people and there's people that you know are studio dancers. And I really felt like that was one of the things that I tried to get through. Like I had many closed door meetings with Mary Beth where I'd be like,
00:40:45
Speaker
I really think you should give this person a go. And she'd be like, I don't think it's the right person. I'd be like, well, you don't know. These are young dancers that have a lot of talent, but aren't getting to show off anything. And I think Elise can contest that with they didn't know she could do jazz dance. And she went like the first five years not getting cast in anything except for ballet roles. And Mary Beth was like, you can do jazz. And
Stewart's Brewing Venture
00:41:06
Speaker
we're like, we're like, yeah, it's amazing what happens when somebody gives somebody an opportunity and you're like, wow, pretty versatile, I guess. Yeah.
00:41:14
Speaker
like because we were a smaller company and we did get together and we hung out and we had a good time as well outside the studio. A lot of us had a lot of polling for each other and we wanted to see. I felt that was the big difference that Milwaukee Palate was so segregated. You didn't hang out with certain dancers because they were so much above you and it was really weird and I never liked that. And so at Milwaukee, even as a trainee, I was always hanging out with a bunch of the guys that were principal dancers and all that because we had similar interests outside and other people would come to me and be like, how are you hanging out with them? And I was like, I just went up and said hi.
00:41:47
Speaker
You know, and I got to know them. And I think that was the big thing that I always wanted to have happen at Ballet Tucson was when you walk in the studio, not having like, that's that person's bar spot, stay away from them. I didn't like any of that hierarchy stuff where I was like, I think you should walk into the studio. And these are people who want to work hard to let them have opportunities and see what comes of it. That was always my goal was to train, help people out. Yeah. Well, I think you did that. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:12
Speaker
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00:42:42
Speaker
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00:43:05
Speaker
I want to talk more about this career shift and what it was like going through that. Hearing your stories, you had these areas that you were starting to transition into, but did you think that you would end up where you are now? No. no so like For me, I did the whole Starbucks thing, became a store manager. It was actually pretty recently that I left. so My entire tenure from when I started when I moved to Tucson to when I left was 16 years. so I spent a really long time with that company.
00:43:30
Speaker
managing through the COVID-19 pandemic was really, really difficult. And it changed the company in a way that really didn't align with why I became a store manager. And the values shifted and how they wanted us to operate and opportunity. Well, I might be jumping ahead because there's stuff that happened between then with the business that Stewart owned and all of that. But now we work together with this new venture that we have going on. And I ended up stepping away, I stepped down from the store manager, and then eventually just stepped away when we had our surprise third baby I took. a year sabbatical and then ended up just not going back after. I just put in my notice and I was like, I'm not coming back on my set to return date. And so now we're doing this full time. Yeah, I didn't have the intention to stay in the restaurant business at all. I really like doing like hands on like carpentry, welding, stuff like that. So I was doing that as well while I was dancing. I did less serving, I think, than some other dancers. But basically, the scenic design contract I was working on, they ended up not needing me anymore. I was fortunate enough for you guys to recommend me at Monkey Burger. And it was the year we were getting married and it was like the most bizarre interview because I showed up and then he's like, so when can you start? And I was like in a month because I'm leaving. I'm leaving to get married. We're going to our honeymoon. Roy, who at the time, I thought he was the owner of Monkey Burger. I did too. He's not. No, he was not never the owner. Oh, yeah.
00:44:50
Speaker
yeah So that's the the long the crazy story of it. is So I get the job and I'm working there. And then out of basically necessity, Roy stopped showing up and I got a random lady one day came in and was like, I'm his cousin and he's going through some wife stuff. I hear that you've kind of tried to help keep the wheels on the bus while he's been gone. And I was like, I just want to still have a job. And I see everybody working really hard here and I had become good friends with everybody that worked there and I believed in the product, she was like, the well, the owner would like to talk to you. And I was like, well, I know really. And she was like, no, no, the owner owner. And I was like, I had no clue any of this was going on. I got called to his house and he wanted me to be the director of operations for the company. And I was still dancing. And I was like, no.
00:45:36
Speaker
I was like, there's no, I don't have enough time for this. That's impossible. I won't be able to give it a hundred percent. Still he was like, I think we want to take a chance on you. He's like, I'm not asking you to be there from sunup to sundown. Like, I just need you to make sure that the staff is hired, trained, all that we're growing. And so would you like to take that?
00:45:52
Speaker
kind of took a chance on it. Next thing you know, the business is doing better. It's turned around a bit. And there was a lot of stuff I didn't know about the restaurant business. Like I had no clue that up until that point, Monkey Burger was just losing money like crazy. And I started to turn it around. The owner Fletcher was like, you seem to have a knack for this. If you want, he's like, I think we can push to the next level by hiring a consultant to come in and teach you more about the business.
00:46:18
Speaker
because you seem to be eager and that's the year i was transitioning out of dance and i said yeah i'd be down for that i would like to be better at what i'm doing in my day to day because a lot was just being self-taught he brought in somebody and that man was like i think we should buy this together before it starts doing really well so we can get a good price And I was very young and naive and thought that sounded like the best thing on earth. I get a piece of the pie. I'm still going to operate it and do all this. Long story, basically that partnership did not work. Kind of lost the safety net of having this owner who was a great guy who was supporting me and helping me develop in the restaurant business.
00:46:58
Speaker
to having like a nightmare of a time. But at that same time, I learned so much from this person that had been in industry for so long that it did, it turned it into a profitable restaurant. Learned a lot and it became what I loved doing kind of evolved into my passion. Still is my passion to this day. And the biggest change that ended up happening is after that partner, we were able to go our separate ways. We had a big downturn in sales and it made me realize like The other part of what I liked about the industry was meeting breweries and bringing in local craft beer. And I really fell in love with the idea of a craft beer scene and what I wanted to do. I kind of got talking with a couple places that were scared to do food, but they knew they needed to do more sales and that food brings in people. To be honest, Monkey Bird was starting to do poor enough that I was like, I'm not sure I can wait long enough to make this transition happen.
00:47:52
Speaker
I went to go renew my lease for the restaurant because I was like, I'm still going to fight through this. I still love what I'm doing. And I get in the room and the lawyer had dropped the ball and I'd never been put on the lease. And so I had to call Fletcher and he was in shock because his lawyer drew up the contract and he was like, what do I got to do to make this right?
00:48:15
Speaker
And he called me into his office and I told him the horror story of what my partnership did and how it all went really bad as he started meddling with the business. And it was doing great when he wasn't around. And he basically was like, tell me about what you want to do in life. And I told him how I was so passionate about the business and what I want to be doing. And I want to do beer and I want to find a brewery to collab with and he was like, okay, I'll sign the lease again. Do you want me to be your partner again? And I was like, sure. Somebody I knew and trusted and respected and had a lot of pole in the town. Within a year's time, he was able to set up a meeting with the company we now own, Iron Johns Brewing Company. And we merged in 2020. When I first got into it yet again, naive, I was like,
00:48:59
Speaker
This is gonna be awesome. We're gonna be making beer. We're gonna be having a good time. It's gonna be different than the restaurant business. It's not different. It's all the same. It's just great because I'm still passionate about it. all let's say But um in that transition time, we ended up building a new brew facility. And I got to enjoy that construction background of building stuff and the stuff that I really enjoyed. So I spent the better part of four years building out a brand new brew facility, which we did from the ground up. We cut out all the floors ourselves, did the underground. we Welded together everything we got to basically. Taylor makes the brewery the way we wanted it. I learned a lot about like the plumbing aspect of everything during that time. We also shut down monkey burger did a full overhaul to an iron john's facility. So I basically just did construction.
00:49:44
Speaker
and didn't do the restaurant job for a while, which was, I think, a little bit of a reprise. It felt good to have a change up. And in doing so, I learned a lot about how the brewing equipment worked and everything. This transition to at least coming on board. We basically had a brewer that we kept during COVID and we were paying him because we were nervous because none of us knew how to do it. The ownership, our new partners, they were more just investment type people. With the help of a consultant that we were hiring to teach us and use brand new equipment, we were able to realize that the brewer was not going to be the right fit for things moving forward. And that's when Elise was like, I would like a chance to interview. Yeah, she was like, I'd like a chance to interview and that's is when stuff was yeah crazy with Starbucks during COVID. She met with the consultant.
00:50:24
Speaker
and Paul is a brilliant man. He's this older British man that has the doctorate fermentation and he is very stern and very much like the ballet world where he's super like this is how you do it. At least coming from that background I think it was a huge asset and also all the Starbucks background of like systems and how to manage your time and everything that he had one meeting with her and he came to me and he was like, I think we found our person. I can get working on it like almost right away as soon as you finish this space. That journey really started almost instantly after we made that decision of this is going to be something new. Now my passion is more towards the brewery side than the restaurant side, but I understand how important the restaurant is to the success of a brewery these days. The market's a little saturated and you've got very few who are willing to take on the risk of doing a restaurant as well. At least what are you exactly doing? So I brew the beer. With the merger of Monkey Burger and Iron Johns in 2020, I kept my store manager job. through that year, I would show up to the space and be like, Hey guys, and then I go pick up kids and go home kind of thing. And then in 2021, when the opportunity came up, I was also itching to try and figure out like, I either need to push through this Starbucks role that I'm in and figure out how it fulfills me or I find something new. And then the opportunity came up and I was like, I would love to try something different and learn a new skill. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but also it would mean that student and I get to work.
00:51:55
Speaker
together again because we hadn't done that in the better part of a decade since we both
Post-Dance Life and Teaching
00:52:00
Speaker
retired. We went from seeing each other every day at work to seeing each other in the morning and at night and sometimes only in the morning because once we had kids we were doing like split schedules and all of that.
00:52:10
Speaker
Yeah, I learned how to brew and I've been doing it since 2021. I stepped down to shift supervisor. And so I was working both at the same time, which was a lot, but it was sort of this nervousness of not really feeling ready to commit to leaving something I'd spent 16 years of my life doing with the Starbucks thing. But then after we had our third kid, it was sort of just like, we can figure out how to make this work.
00:52:34
Speaker
and just have this be full time. and That was right around when we were starting to build out the restaurant. and so My skill set with Starbucks and staffing and coming up with systems and doing all of that actually came in handy with prepping to open up a restaurant and making sure we had all these things in place. and so It's actually been really really good and fulfilling and we work together all the time. It's awesome. yeah That's cool. What is your relationship with dance like now? Are you guys involved in the dance scene at all?
00:53:02
Speaker
No, after I retired, I spent a year teaching. And then after we had our first kid, I stopped completely. I found it really difficult even with teaching, letting go of that perfectionism that comes with having it be your job. And it was hard for me to see, even just teach the kids the fun side of it.
00:53:21
Speaker
And so I realized after that, I was like, I think I need to just step away and figure out who I am without dance because it had been a part of my life so much. And I was like, if I'm not going to do it a hundred percent, I don't know how to do it at 50. I don't know how to do dance at 25%.
00:53:37
Speaker
Can I teach one day a week and be okay with that? Or do I need to teach seven days a week to be fulfilled with it? So I just decided to cut ties with it and haven't really gone back to it. But now I'm kind of in this point of like wanting to see if it's possible. Like, can you enjoy it recreationally after having done it professionally? Is that possible? Or is that thing in your head of needing perfectionism a hundred percent of the time and doing it right and practicing for the show?
00:54:03
Speaker
is that a thing that I can't let go of and I haven't tried it so I don't know but there is that fear of Am I going to get in the studio and regret it because I can't look at myself in the mirror in this different shape. You know, it's terrifying to think about. I feel like when I first retired and I would go take class, I was like way in my head because I was like, I still need to prove myself. Cause I moved too, you know, so I'm been somewhere in somewhere and I'm like, I need to prove to them that I was a good dancer. yeah yeah Even though I don't really do it anymore. And so I'd be so hard on myself and like so tense that things would really not go well. And that happens for like like. I retired six years ago now. So the first like five years, I feel like that's how I felt in class. And then just this past year, it's like I got to a point where I'm so out of shape, out of dancing shape, I guess, that I just knew it wasn't going to be good. And then it was fun.
00:54:56
Speaker
Okay, like the pressure was so far removed that I was like, I know it's not gonna be like, I'm very aware that I'm gonna go in and like, i can't even like, do all the relevés like my cat was like, no, at that point, I was finally like, this is fun now, because I could just totally let go. But it took me that long.
00:55:13
Speaker
To be okay with it and it also took me fighting the right teacher. I think it is possible, but it's hard Yeah, I'm glad to hear you say that you had that experience I've even like had this thing in my head where I'm like I'm gonna show up to a class like one day and They're gonna be able to tell that it's not my first ballet class But they're not gonna be able to tell that I ever did it professionally and that conversation is gonna come up wouldn't be like Oh, did you dance as a kid and I'm like, I don't want to have to lie to them and be like, yeah But I stopped from those eight like I don't want to have to lie But then I also don't want to have to tell them like, Oh, I did it professionally. And then they're judging me and being like, you were a professional, you who can't even really touch your toes anymore. Like, what? But here's the other thing, because I teach adult classes. So now I'm on the other side of it too. And I have dancers in my class who are in that place.
00:55:57
Speaker
And I can tell they are professional and they are still amazing. The things that make you a professional dancer, the way you hold yourself, your port de bras, the intention behind your movement, how you use your feet, those things don't go away. And you can still see it in someone. And I'm like, yeah, I can't always get through jumps because I've had two children now, but other things, they don't go away. You can still see it. And as a teacher, I never looking at someone i'm being like, Oh my gosh, they're and professional. They're so bad. I'm like,
00:56:22
Speaker
They're beautiful. I can tell they were a beautiful dancer. And now I know they do something totally different. It's just we get so in our heads about it. We do. No one else is thinking of it that way. Yeah. And that's the hardest thing to remember is like, I mean, with anything you walk into a space, you might be nervous about like, Oh, I don't think this like outfit makes me look the best. But like, nobody's thinking about that about you. It's amazing when you realize how little people think about you.
00:56:43
Speaker
when you're not around, you know? Only you are thinking about you. And I i taught yeah for about the same amount of time a year after I stopped dancing. A friend of ours from Bali Tucson, Corey opened his own studio. He did the whole boarding school thing as well, conservatory stuff. And he really thought Tucson had the market to do something like that. But he also realized in order to do that, he needed money that would come from like a competition studio. And in my opinion, that's very hard to marry those two things together.
00:57:12
Speaker
And I felt very defeated every day when I taught there because I had kids that were just using it as I have to take this class so I can go then do my lyrical class and then that way I can go to competition. And no matter how much I tried to help them, you know, make those improvements, there was very few so select kids that actually wanted that.
00:57:32
Speaker
And so I did get some reward out of some of those kids that did private lessons with, but when we had our first kid, I realized I was just like, I'm going up here after doing full time at the restaurant to teach this just to realize that I'm not being fulfilled. And I loved working with the boys. I always think there's not enough.
00:57:49
Speaker
guys out there that want the boys just to be wild and crazy and kind of get them hooked on that athleticism side of it first before trying to beat the technique into them. I never would have stuck with ballet at all if if that was my upbringing. To this day, when you guys talk about doing classes as an adult, I have zero desire. I never liked ballet class ever my entire life. It was nothing enjoyable for me. I never felt rewarded after it. The things I want to do is partner, get on stage and jump and turn. And that was About it, then I love the last bit. I love connecting with the character and doing all that, but I transitioned. I enjoy teaching the kids when I was at Valley Arts because they had drive and they were making improvements so much. But that transition to the competition studio really messed with me a bit.
00:58:34
Speaker
And then I had this great opportunity to work at a really small value studio in the neighborhood. We actually live in now in Savannah and they were doing a great job developing little humans that want to do ballet, a classical ballet. And they saw the value in it and I. Love teaching there. I taught there for a couple of weeks and I had the best time and my dad was actually friends with the owner.
00:58:56
Speaker
And he made a comment about how I didn't like teaching kids that didn't want to focus on ballet. And she thought I was saying that about her students and she let me go. I was like, but this is the weird thing because I've never been let go from a job.
00:59:09
Speaker
ever in my entire life, besides like the dancing of time transition on your contracts, yeah but like a hard don't come in tomorrow type thing. yeah But I realized right then that there was very few places in town that I could teach to children who wanted, like I'm not want somebody to develop somebody from a young age in ballet. My strongest thing would be to teach variations or men's class or something like that. And there wasn't really an opportunity anymore.
00:59:33
Speaker
in Tucson to do that the way I saw that it would be beneficial to pass on what I learned from going to school. That was it and never really have stepped in the studio again since then. The fulfillment for me, I still like going to the ballet and seeing shows. You know, I had a great experience like right after I was done, my brother started giving more opportunity in his career when he moved on. So I'd get to go see his like accolades and like that type of stuff was very rewarding. So the ballet thing to me is still like a passion thing. I still Really enjoy it. That also being said, I found my way back to my original passion, which is playing ice hockey. I don't have time for any other thing that I think would be fun outside of work and the family time that fully filled that movement thing that I love doing. I think it's actually better for me than if I was to ever even try to make my way back into the studio because.
01:00:24
Speaker
It's something that I just enjoy so much and I'm always super excited to go play hockey. And even as a kid, I was like the thing I want to do the most. So the idea of trying to get back in the studio where I was not happy just has no appeal to me whatsoever. Do your kids dance?
01:00:41
Speaker
No, that our oldest two have absolutely no interest in it. Like we've presented it to them and all of this. They're just like, yeah, we'd rather not. They've kind of followed in their dad's footsteps and they started playing hockey last year and they absolutely love that. But our youngest who's now 18 months old, that girl's always dancing. a one And so I think I was like, this might be, this might be our little dancer. Yeah. Have they seen videos of you guys dancing? like You put it on and they're just, they want to walk out of the room. They they don't care.
01:01:10
Speaker
yeah Yeah, they're like, this is stupid. What are you doing? They don't have any interest yet. They don't understand it. You know, I think maybe when they're older, they might be a little bit more curious. We've made choices that we i don't think we're conscious. Our kids have never been to the Nutcracker. They've never had that like, yeah.
01:01:27
Speaker
I don't think they've even been to a play and my entire childhood with my mom was owned a ballet studio and was super into the theater. My entire childhood was going to shows and I don't know, I just went the hard opposite. It was like, we're not introducing that stuff to our kids the same way. And i I think at first I didn't even realize we were doing that, but now I see it as like, we put zero effort into that. We were just showing them like,
01:01:52
Speaker
videos of us and they were showing no interest so we're just like they're not interested in it but they also have never had that live moment where they see something cool and they're like that's really neat but they do get to see that with hockey like they come watch me play they're like this is exciting thing we take them to a bunch of AHL games and we kind of have to look at things slightly different now with the third baby Raven maybe introducing that dance thing and getting her to a show or doing something might be one of those things that makes her have a little bit of an inkling towards because it's weird two kids coming from both parents owning a dance studio to not having any involvement with it whatsoever is ah I think it's a kind of a bizarre scenario.
01:02:32
Speaker
Well, I think a lot of that just stems from like we made the conscious decision to you know just separate ourselves from it and focus fully on something else that wasn't dance-related. And so our life just centered around not that. Yeah, there was nowhere for us to introduce it to them. If Raven wanted to dance, how would you guys feel about that? I guess not even just like kids' class, but like if she was like, I want to be a dancer. Yeah, I think that's always the complicated thing because it's one of those, like we know the struggle and the trauma that can come with it and you know like the mental health and all of that.
01:03:00
Speaker
And I don't want things that I've thought about myself in my dance career. Like I don't want my child to feel that way about themselves, but also I have to look at it from the side of how excited it made me feel and how fulfilled I was. And just what a cool story to tell somebody when you're like 80 years old that you used to dance professionally, like in a perfect world, if she wanted to do it, or even if any of our other kids, like they're not really so old that they couldn't start now.
01:03:24
Speaker
Like our oldest is nine and it's not uncommon for people to start at that age. I think we would have to like separate ourselves from it a little bit and let her have her own experience without her own influence and trying to mediate her experience with it based on her.
01:03:36
Speaker
own history. I think at first, I would have been jaded enough to say that I never wanted our kids to do it at all. Like I can say that out loud now. at First of all, I wouldn't feel that way. But I definitely had a time period where I was like, this is something that I think pushing kids towards could be a little bit of no endangering them. But that just came from the negativity of certain parts of it.
01:03:59
Speaker
because I talked earlier about how the people at the school I went to, how important they were in the development of who I became as a human. And that really is what I think dance does as well. I find that most of the people that have moved on after their careers have such good work ethic and are good solid people that they have fulfillment in the rest of their moving forward, whether they stay in dance or they move on. And so I think the skills and life lessons you've learned through ballet and dance in general,
01:04:26
Speaker
are very important. The hardest thing for me would be to keep my opinion to myself and let them enjoy it. And also knowing the difference in children now and the way society is, I know how much of a push it took to get to a point where I could do it as a career.
Parenting and Dance Careers
01:04:43
Speaker
I don't know if that's something that's in me to do to one of my kids and they would have to be really self-driven and really love it to like no end to be comfortable with having them want to take that on. So it's it's a mixed feeling of I so have so much fondness for it and so many good memories and joy. And then I also think long term of the pain and everything that comes with it afterwards. The rejection and the body image stuff that you know we deal with all the time. yeah
01:05:12
Speaker
As a male, I didn't think it was that affecting me as bad as like it affected Elise, like the body image stuff. But as I got out of shape and things happened, it does. It takes a toll. I took things too far several times in my career, whether it was insane workouts or just not eating enough and being not educated enough or actually being educated enough and ignoring it.
01:05:35
Speaker
because I was so convinced it was what I needed to do. And I think that's what I worry about. And it's not different than, you know, I played decently level hockey and you do do stupid stuff in that as well. And I think that's like, just the lesson there is like, if your kid's passionate about something that is competitive.
01:05:52
Speaker
and really hard to do, there's going to be a lot of sacrifice with it and just depends on how much joy it's bringing them. But with Raven, if she wants to do ballet and she catches the itch and it's something that she just keeps on falling in love with, I think at least we have some ability to instill good practices.
01:06:12
Speaker
Yeah and like we would be able to identify like with ballet schools which ones are providing the proper instruction. and Yeah and help do proper stuff that can add longevity. It sounds like weird but there is a body type that is less hard on your body to do it and if there's something that's extremely identifiable that's going to be painful for the rest of their life. It's like helping them learn how to work with that thing that can be a hindrance in their career so that they can enjoy dance and not get injured as much. I think definitely with this final child we'll if they want to do a couple more. Yeah. We'll be a little more open to it maybe.
01:06:45
Speaker
yeah And then we also understand that I coach youth hockey now and I don't want to be that parent. I also walks into a studio and I make that person at that studio feel uncomfortable by putting too much of my perspective into things. That's their business and that's how they want to do it. Not trying to like, why aren't you working on this or anything like that? I think that'd be a little bit of a hard thing to do at first separating out seeing what's working and what's not keep it to myself.
01:07:14
Speaker
Yeah, I agree. yeah yeah Having kids is pretty wild. yeah Before we wrap up, I just want to hear from you both.
Artistry and Career Advice
01:07:20
Speaker
If you had to give aspiring dancers pursuing a career a piece of advice, what would you tell them?
01:07:24
Speaker
I would definitely say if you really, really want it and you're going for it, spend a good amount of time focusing on the artistry of what dance is and the emotion behind it. Cause it fills you with much more joy than just doing dance as something that is giving you like a physical release. I didn't get enough of that until later of like, if you start focusing on who you are on stage and the character and building your career early.
01:07:51
Speaker
you get so many more rewarding years. I think artistic staff is starting to realize how important that is to have dynamic dancers that aren't just talented but also are bringing artistry like right out of the gate and also put yourself in a vulnerable situation and take on I think some of the biggest highlights that I've ever had were taking on things I was terrified of.
01:08:11
Speaker
and accepting like when they say who knows this and even if you don't know it make stupid decisions and put yourself in those positions understudy everybody even if you know you don't have chance don't take those moments and take them for granted because i think that's where opportunity comes from and that's my advice is like learn everybody's stuff, be very engaged when you're in the studio. That's what's going to set you apart from everybody else is if you're on it and focused, you can really you know move your needle a little bit faster than everybody else's and enjoy what you're doing. I spent too many of my first years in the studio not paying attention and not learning from the people who were around me who had already progressed and just focusing on myself versus focusing on what was going around with everybody and how they were getting things done. what approach they were taking toward their day and also listening to your body and having those moments of reflection and be like, okay, if I just give this a little bit of an easy moment, I can make better decisions. If you want to go for it, like I saw, I'll say like, you have to actually attack what you want. If you don't, you're not going to make it.
01:09:15
Speaker
Yeah, I think for me, my advice would be don't box yourself in. I think I did that unintentionally to myself growing up in my training is I was so dedicated and bought into the technique I was raised in that when I was exposed to other stuff, my mentality was like, well, that's wrong. Cause it's not what I know is right. Exposing yourself to different techniques. So if you're like hardcore Chiquetti, like I was.
01:09:37
Speaker
go take a Vaganova class and experience something else or go take a class at a studio that doesn't follow a specific technique or maybe do a type of dance that you've never done before. Like if you've never done hip hop, you should try and do hip hop and it might feel silly and you might be uncomfortable, but you need to expose yourself to a wide range of stuff because once you get in the professional scene, the style of technique that you were raised in doesn't matter anymore because you're going for a stage performance.
01:10:07
Speaker
And most companies nowadays do such a variety of different types of styles of dance that if you're not exposed to that at a young age, you don't want to be in the studio in your first job figuring out what that is.
01:10:20
Speaker
and so If you can get exposure to that earlier, that's the best thing you can do for yourself.
Closing Thoughts and Community
01:10:24
Speaker
You guys, this was so good. I really loved talking to you and connecting with you again. and If you are ever in Tucson, everyone, go visit the Iron Johns, see Stuart and Elise. Is there anything else you want to share before we wrap? I love your podcast. I just want to say that I listen to it every week when it comes out, and I think you're doing really good work. so Good job. We're proud of you. Thanks so much, you guys. So good to see you. you
01:10:49
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at TheBradyValerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.