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34. Redefining Success in a Ballet Career with Ali Block
232 Plays4 months ago
Ali Block danced professionally as Clara with the Radio City Christmas Spectacular, as a Principal Dancer with Eglevsky Ballet, and as a dancer with Texas Ballet Theater and Eugene Ballet Company. She earned her Bachelor’s degree in psychology and is currently working as a psychology researcher at Mount Sinai School of Medicine.
Ali is incredibly transparent in this interview about the good, the bad and everything in between. We talked all about Ali’s experience moving away from home at a young age to study ballet and her first pro contract as Clara in the Radio City Christmas Spectacular. She is incredibly candid about her struggle with an eating disorder as she was preparing to enter her professional dance career and the impact her community had on recovery.
Ali shares what that first audition season was like, her first pro contracts and how she decided to make the leap to freelance. We also learn about Ali’s transition from full-time dancer to psychology researcher and her future dreams for her career and life!
Key Moments:
- Ali’s early dance training [1:53]
- Her experience moving away at a young age to train at UNCSA and Miami City Ballet [5:14]
- Ali’s struggle with an eating-disorder while preparing to enter her pro career [12:03]
- Ali’s first professional contract as Clara in the Radio City Christmas Spectacular [15:50]
- Her first audition season and getting her first pro contract [27:00]
- How Ali made the transition to a freelance dance career [41:30]
- What made Ali want to study psychology and how she made the transition into research [50:41]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [1:04:33]
Connect with Ali:
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/ali_p_block
WEBSITE: alipaigeblock.com/
LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ali-paige-block-b8798a112/
Links and Resources:
Get your copy of The Intentional Career Handbook
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
Second Act Mentorship: https://www.secondactnetwork.org/
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Finding Passion and Trust in Dance Career
00:00:00
Speaker
One thing that I found, and it's so hard for us as dancers, but you really just sort of have to let it flow. And and my boyfriend tells me this all the time. He's in academia. He's a biomedical engineer. So he's been through all of this stuff many times. And he's always like, really, the only way is if you find the things that you're passionate about, you find the things that are meaningful and important to you and where you want to make your mark. and you pursue those with passion and curiosity, and you pursue them wholeheartedly, and then you sort of see where the road takes you. And it's the same thing with a ballet career. You sort of have an idea of what you want, but then you just sort of have to let the road take you. I think we could all afford, particularly as dancers, to trust ourselves a little more and have a little more faith in our own competencies and abilities, and just trust that no matter what we choose, we'll make it work, and we'll grow from it, and we'll learn from it, and it'll either be the right thing, or it'll take us to the next right thing.
Introducing the Podcast for Aspiring Dancers
00:00:51
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional
Allie Black's Dance Journey and Psychology Transition
00:01:15
Speaker
dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need succeed in a dance career on your
00:01:25
Speaker
hello and welcome to the brainy valerina podcast i'm your host caitlin sloan and i am joint today by alie black Ally danced professionally as Clara with the Radio City Christmas Spectacular, as a principal dancer with Iglesia Ballet, and as a dancer with Texas Ballet Theatre and Eugene Ballet Company. She earned her bachelor's degree in psychology and is currently working as a psychology researcher at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine.
00:01:50
Speaker
Allie, I'm so excited to hear your story today. And I would love to start from the beginning and hear why you took your very first dance
Allie's Early Ballet Experiences
00:01:57
Speaker
class. Oh, so my parents put me into ballet when I was five because a lot of my friends were doing it. So they thought two reasons they were like, A, it'll be a good social activity and B, it will be very good for your posture. That's what they subsequently told me. So I started taking classes at the former school of Cleveland Valley when I was five with all of my friends. It was a summer, like a summer program. And at the end of the summer, I was very small. Nothing's changed. I'm still very small.
00:02:25
Speaker
But I looked very, very young and my friends moved up to the next level for the year and I did not. And my parents called the school just to see like, did she do something wrong? Like, you know, why did all of her friends get promoted and she didn't? And they were like, oh, well.
00:02:40
Speaker
you know, we typically don't promote our three and four year olds to the next level at this point. And they were like, Oh, but she's almost six. So I think they just thought I was very young. And they were like, Okay, we're not gonna put a kid that young for the next class. So anyway, they were like, Oh, sorry for the mistake. We'll just keep her in this class anyway for the year. And my mom sat me down and was like, you know, fully expecting me to be like, well, if I'm not good to be in class with my friends, then I'm not gonna do it. But They explained to me like, you're going to be in a different class in your friends and it's okay if you don't want to keep doing it. And I was like, no, I'm going to keep dancing. Like, I like it. You know, I remember we did this thing at the former school of Cleveland Ballet. They would place towels on the floor in a circle and we would do leaping over towels. Like, and that was like how we learned to jump. And I remember just feeling like I was flying and thinking it was the greatest feeling in the world. So I was like, I don't care if my friends aren't in my class. I get to do ballet.
00:03:34
Speaker
and That's how I started.
Training and Challenges: From Cleveland to Miami
00:03:35
Speaker
and then What was your training growing up? Did you stay at Cleveland Ballet? so I trained at the former school of Cleveland Ballet. I say former because there have been multiple iterations of the Cleveland Ballet Company. so I trained there until I was 10, and then unfortunately, cleveland it was Cleveland San Jose Ballet.
00:03:51
Speaker
at the time folded. That was in 2000, and the directors of the school opened up an entirely new school. It was called Cleveland School of Dance, and it was pretty much the same faculty. So like Junior Cleveland Valley moved over, sadly without the professional company attached. And then I continued training there with the same faculty until I was 15.
00:04:12
Speaker
I did all the summer programs every year. And then when I was 16, I went to, I have to say this right, at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts. It was North Carolina School of the Arts when I was there. And then they added the U on. So I always feel like I'm revealing my age when I default to saying North Carolina School of the Arts. But people these days know it is UNCSA. So I spent my junior and senior years of high school training there. And then before I had gone to UNCSA, see, I have to pause every night.
00:04:42
Speaker
It's so unnatural for me to say the U. I had also spent a couple summers at Miami City Ballet School, and they had asked me to stay year-round. So like 16 going into my junior year of high school, I was very torn between, you know, do I choose Miami or do I choose North Carolina? Ultimately, my family and I decided on North Carolina because the academic program is built in and you're living in dorms, and they were a little wary of me living on my own at 16 in Miami.
00:05:06
Speaker
which I think was a good choice. But so after I graduated from UNCSA, I spent a year post grad training at Miami City Ballet School and ended up sort of getting both of those experiences in. What was that like moving away from home so young to train? It's tough. I think I think it was something I had known for a long time that I was going to have to do growing up, you know, very young when Cleveland Ballet was, and there is of course now a new Cleveland Ballet, but when Cleveland San Jose Ballet was there, you know, I always thought I would just stay and train in the school all the way through. I was also, you know, very young when it folded. I was 10.
00:05:40
Speaker
But around 11, 12, I started getting a lot of feedback from my teachers and just from outside that I had the abilities for a career in this. um And it was clear that I have a passion for it. I think it was at age eight, I told my parents, I was like, I'm going to be a ballerina. And they were like, Okay, sweetie, always very supportive. My parents are wonderful and supportive. But like, you know, they didn't know anything about it. And they're like, sure, but they were very supportive. But at 1112, you know, we were in this sort of new iteration of Cleveland Ballet School. And you know, outside companies started coming in and auditioning. Linda Jackson, who had been one of my teachers at the former school of Cleveland Ballet, she was working at Playhouse Square, which is Cleveland's theater district. And she did an incredible job after Cleveland San Jose Ballet folded of bringing dance programming in and bringing incredible companies from all over the country and the world in so that Cleveland could continue to have professional ballet.
00:06:34
Speaker
on the stage. Because of that, there were a lot of opportunities for kids to audition for kids roles. You know, also Radio City Christmas Spectacular came on through and I think it was at that time like, you know, I booked the role of Clara with Radio City Christmas Spectacular for the national tour and was like starting to audition for summer programs and was starting to get into some of the more competitive ones and was starting to get a lot of feedback like this is something you could do, but I think also was told very young that because there is no longer the Cleveland Ballet in Cleveland, if you're going to get the connections, and I would say even more the connections than the training. I had excellent training in Cleveland, but if you're going to get the connections and the experience and the kind of repertoire under your belt, you're going to have to go elsewhere. So I knew that that was kind of going to have to be in the cards if I wanted this as a career.
Struggles with Eating Disorder and Recovery Support
00:07:21
Speaker
I spent a couple of summers at National Ballet School of Canada. They take you for the summer if they're considering you for the year. And so both summers, I remember I was like going really well. My teachers liked me. I was in the highest level. And if they're interested in keeping you for the year, they actually will have you interview with a
00:07:37
Speaker
psychiatrist and they will do like a physiological exam to see you know if they want to be sure that you're healthy candidate in all the ways but i remember i did like my physiological exams and everything and both summers at the end of the summer they were like you're really talented but we can't take you because of your feet Which was a theme that I heard a lot throughou throughout my childhood. I had bad feet, very inflexible feet, and at many points like went through growth spurts and they would get worse. So that was devastating and also possibly not surprising, but it was still encouraging because they were like, you've got everything else.
00:08:08
Speaker
but It's your feet. So I kept looking for options, got into University of North Carolina School of the Arts, and decided to go there. And I had been considering leaving home since my freshman year of high school. That was when I had started going to National Ballet School for the summers. So by the time junior year rolled around, it was like, it's now or never. Like, we're going to do this. I was devastated my first six weeks. I was so homesick. It was kind of horrendous, but you know, you acclimate and I built a really wonderful group of friends and my parents were very supportive and they would come down to visit North Carolina. We tried to come down like once a month. They would always come to see performances and
00:08:46
Speaker
would say my first year was a little on the rougher side, like emotionally, but by year two, I think I also needed to grow up a little bit. And, you know, I was like, very much like that, like obsessive, like ballerina and training and people were like, chill out, you know, and I kind of like chilled a little bit over the course of my time there and started to build really good friendships. And it ended up being an incredible two years there. My year in Miami post grad was extraordinarily difficult. I think it was just a very, very competitive environment, not even so much amongst the faculty or the company as just my classmates. You know, we were all 18, 19, 20 years old, had one and one goal only, which was to get a contract, either at Miami City Valley or elsewhere. There was a lot of unhealthy eating behavior going on. And nobody told me to lose weight. I've always been like pretty naturally compact. But because I saw all of this sort of behavior around me, I
00:09:38
Speaker
ended up kind of falling into it and I ended up with a pretty bad eating disorder. I was really lonely. I was bullied by some of my classmates. It was just not a good. It was a rough environment. However, my teachers were extraordinary. Carter Alexander and Jetta Constan, I'm going to pronounce her name wrong, Constan Tinescow, who was unfortunately passed away. They were incredible and encouraging and were very kind and supportive and loving as I went through, you know, recovery for the eating disorder. And as I got out on the audition trails, they were immensely supportive and loving. So I would say that year was one of the hardest of my life, but the training really kind of cemented some things. And I think, I think it was really that training that gave me an edge to get noticed in auditions and eventually land my first professional contract.
00:10:22
Speaker
But it was brutal. yeah So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, I'm 34. So 16 years ago.
Reflections on Past Struggles and Growth
00:10:28
Speaker
And I had not been back to like even the city of Miami since because it's as much as it's a fun city. It's like it just brings back some traumatic memories for me. And in September, my boyfriend and I were actually traveling, we went on a cruise and one of the ports was Miami.
00:10:44
Speaker
So we decided we would get off the ship and explore Miami Little and I was a little like on the fence and I'm like, you know what, maybe maybe I'll take you to to South Beach, like where Miami City Ballet is located and where I lived and where I kind of experienced all of these things. and It was really special 16 years later to be there with you know the person I love who is immensely supportive and knows about all of these things that I've gone through and has heard me vent so much about the psychological challenges of a ballet career and to just be like, wow, I'm here, you know, 16 years later, having had a 15 year professional career, healthy,
00:11:21
Speaker
We'll always struggle with body image issues as so many of us will, but they're well managed and healthy and I have a better you know sense of them and I've not slipped back into you know unhealthy restrictive eating behaviors since. It was really kind of a special like full circle moment to be like, okay, like I'm here. We did this. like We're on the ground in Miami again and this was a really hard time in my life and we're doing it. So that was really special and that was just two
Setting Career Intentions and Core Values
00:11:45
Speaker
months ago. I feel like that is so common for a lot of dancers because we have these experiences so young and you just don't know how to process them. No. You don't have the tools. It sounds like you had, like you said, good support of teachers and atmosphere within the school. Like, do they provide tools for you to help with anything you're going through or did you have to like ask for it? How did that work? I went home for about, I think it was four to six weeks.
00:12:11
Speaker
When I had the eating disorder, it was pretty quick, like it was caught very quick. Like I would say the whole thing was like within three or four months, I lost an excessive amount of weight and was already a small person. So I just looked like non-human. It was quite scary. So even the faculty at Miami City Bell, I started talking to me and they were like, you don't look healthy. This is too much. And I think I hit a point with the support of some friends all over the country who were dancing and various places who knew me and had been through their own struggles. And it was actually a network of friends of mine from UNCSA who were spread out everywhere. And as I was traveling the country to audition, I think a number of my friends had like sort of briefed each other like Ali needs help. They they almost put together like a cross country intervention support group, which just speaks to the quality of friendship.
00:12:55
Speaker
that I have with these people and a dear friend of mine who had struggled with an eating disorder while we were in North Carolina and was healthy. At this point, I had gone to Richmond, to Audition for Richmond Ballet, and she was there. She sat me down and was incredibly loving and kind and patient and talked to me. and I think I already knew deep down that there was something wrong. and so I actually, rather than go back to Miami after my audition in Richmond, I flew home and I took I think it was about four weeks I started doing some outpatient therapy and worked with a nutritionist. Then you know I was up front with the school, Miami City Ballet, and I was allowed to go back for the end of the year as long as I was monitored regularly by a doctor. I had to go in like three times a week for weight checks and blood pressure and heart rate checks.
00:13:39
Speaker
and I think it was like as quickly as I spiraled into it. I was really ambitious to pull myself out of it because I knew that I would not be allowed to take a job A, if I were unhealthy, my doctors wouldn't let me. And B, I knew that I probably wouldn't be strong enough to get a job. The school of Miami City Valley was very supportive of me taking that time. And I came back and towards the end of the year, we went right into our end of the year workshop and they were really loving and and kind. And I'm very, very grateful for the faculty because my classmates were Unfortunately, not as supportive at the time. Although, you know, subsequently, I'm in touch with some of them and, you know, we've all grown up and people grow up. No one's a kind person at 18. No one's the best version of themselves, you know? Yeah. But yeah, so it was it was a tough, tough time, but got through it. And then right at the other end of the summer, I got my first professional contract. There is so much dancers need to learn as they pursue a professional dance career. It can be completely overwhelming. Where do you even start?
00:14:39
Speaker
with your intention. To me, this is the first step in defining success on your terms. Once you have an intention for your career based on your core values, you can begin to hone in on a strategy to make your goals a reality. But without it, you will always feel out of alignment, out of control, and ultimately unfulfilled in your career. So how do you figure out what success means to you?
Balancing Childhood Opportunities and Training
00:15:03
Speaker
With the Brainy Ballerina Intentional Career Handbook. This is not just your ordinary book.
00:15:09
Speaker
The intentional career handbook walks you through it everything you need to think about as you embark on your dance career. With over 50 guided question prompts, you will dive deep into determining what really matters to you in a dance career based on your individual core values. By the end of this handbook, you will not only be crystal clear on your goals, but in the mindset you need to make it happen. Tap the link in the show notes to download your copy today and start pursuing your dance career with intention.
00:15:39
Speaker
I really want to talk about that, but I want to go back first to talking about Radio City because that was in high school, right? Middle school, yes. no Wow. Okay. Sixth grade and seventh grade, and then I actually booked the international tour in eighth grade and then ended up not doing it. So it was like a lot of middle school for me. Yeah, I've got to hear about how this came about, what that experience was like, because I think this is a very rare experience for a dancer to have. It was pretty incredible. I always like to joke with people. I'm like, yeah, my career peaked when I was 11 and 12. It's like when you're going into concert dances. I mean, this is not the metric we define our success by in ballet.
00:16:17
Speaker
you're compensated, but like the concert dance world is not super high paying. And it's only at age 11, 12, while dancing for Radio City, I was part of, I believe, AGVA, so the American Guild of Variety Artists, rather than AGMA, and getting paid pretty well. like you know i mean I was 11, so like my parents were managing that. I didn't know. But the production, they hired a tutor for me. I was out of school for a couple of months in seventh grade, and I was like tutored you know, on site backstage at the theater, they hand make like a tutu for you for your body type. And, you know, I think because you're like the kid in the production and the Rockettes in the ensemble and all the adults kind of dote over you and are just so they were all so sweet and supportive. My family got very close with some of the Rockettes who were just
00:17:01
Speaker
wonderful No, it was a pretty incredible experience. I think that time really solidified for me. I already knew that I wanted to dance professionally, but those two years that I performed with Radio City really solidified for me how much I loved the life of a dancer. I think I did like maybe 23 shows.
00:17:19
Speaker
each year or something like that, which is you know a lot when you're 11 or 12. I just loved that lifestyle of going to the theater and constantly getting ready for the next performance. In eighth grade, so after having done it for two years, I went to Chicago to audition for the national tour. and At that point in 2003, they were actually auditioning for shows all over the country and also for one in Tokyo. and I remember you know we did the audition, they made the cuts, they cut us down to like the final 15-16 dancers and then they took us back for like measurements and fittings and whatever and then they were like the list of the cities that you're interested in list your top choices so I was like number one Tokyo like heck yes I want to go to Tokyo. Were you doing this by yourself or were your parents with you? Oh, no, my mom was not there with me. So I'm like, oh, I'm like, cool. And then as number two, I had put Detroit because I think there was like a Detroit Indianapolis tour. And I had my great aunt and great uncle lived at the time in Detroit, we would go there every year for Thanksgiving. So it was like a place that I knew was the waiting game for a few weeks, like do book the job, whatever. And so I did and I was offered the Tokyo tour. But then this was the year that SARS-CoV-1. hit. So I don't know if you remember, but like they just refer to it as SARS. So it's like not SARS-CoV-2, COVID, SARS. And I think it was like Tokyo and Toronto, if I'm remembering correctly, were two of the most heavily hit places. So they canceled the tour.
00:18:45
Speaker
to Tokyo for safety reasons and then they were like, do you want to do Detroit? And I had a good long sit down conversation with my parents and they were like, look, you've done this for two years. And they again, like they let me make the decision. But I think we agreed with some nudging from my parents. They were right about this. They were like, you could spend a third year doing this and get incredible experience.
00:19:05
Speaker
Or you could really hone in on your training. And we knew that my goal was to go away from home and train full time elsewhere in the next few years. And that while performing is amazing, you aren't having as much time to train and you know build your technique. And so we were like, we kind of collectively agreed that this is a time to stay put.
00:19:26
Speaker
focus on my training, do my summer program auditions in prep for trying to go away for full-time training sometime in high school. Kind of in Tokyo that'd be different because it's just like what a cool experience that would be and of course nothing against like Detroit or indian Indianapolis but it's just I'd already done the national tour two years so it was like let's make some you know measured decisions which it's funny because looking back now I'm like having to make tough decisions like that has sort of imbued my entire career as an adult. And one of the biggest lessons that I've learned in my professional career is that you can't just make decisions based on ballet or like what you think appears to be the most like shiny goal. I mean, there are so many factors. At that point in eighth grade, training was one of the factors. It was also like I wanted to be with my family and it had been really difficult socially being out of school in seventh grade and sixth grade for so long. And I wanted to have a bit of a normal childhood. Those kinds of decisions have colored my entire adult life and career.
Holistic Decision-Making in Dance Career
00:20:22
Speaker
and I remember at the University of North Carolina School of the Arts when I was 17, I remember sitting down with some of my teachers and talking about what companies should I audition for. and Christine Spizzo, who was one of my mentors and favorite teachers there, she said to me, she was like you know there will be factors as you're an adult that will
00:20:39
Speaker
color your decisions and you're not going to just pick the company you dance for because it's your favorite one per se, like you might have a partner, you might prefer certain climates, you might have certain life factors like proximity to family, and those will color your decisions. And I remember at 17 being like, you're right, like I'm going to go for the best job. But she was right. And it really has informed a lot of my decisions along the way, especially as I've gotten older in my life and my career, my decisions have been more focused on like holistic life choices versus just dancing for the best company I can get hired by. It's so true. As a kid training, you're so laser focused on this goal. You can't even imagine having a partner or when I was that age, I wasn't thinking like, Oh, I'll have kids someday. no I always kind of wanted that. But it wasn't like,
00:21:29
Speaker
something that I considered in terms of my career, like right? he said You said you're thinking about your Valley career at a very singular place and you have to be kind of selfish about it. And then yeah, you get to a point where you realize I want this to last a long time. I want to have longevity and my life is going. Yeah. And there are other things happening that I care about to that I need to now incorporate into this career.
00:21:52
Speaker
Absolutely. And you know, it's interesting. I have run into a few people, not many, but a few people over the years who are like, ballet needs to be your singular focus, like as an adult, like ballet needs to be your singular focus and don't have distractions with other things. And I wholeheartedly disagree with that. I do think when you're a kid training, like, yes, like you said, you have to be laser focused, a little bit selfish, almost tunnel vision because training is so intense and the world is so competitive. And there does need to be a little bit of that if you're going to proceed to having a career.
00:22:21
Speaker
But as an adult, dancing professionally, how can you be an artist? It's one thing to be a dancer, but it's another thing to be an artist if you don't have life experience. And if you spend your entire life blinders on in a studio with no awareness of what's happening in the world around you, you don't experience love and heartbreak and loss and friendships and other things and learn other things and have other curiosities. How can you be an artist? You know, so simulating experiences is not real
From Dance to Psychology: Education's Impact
00:22:52
Speaker
artistry. It's true. It's like when you're a kid and you're dancing, like I have all the classes, lyrical class, you do combo to like Celine Dion and you're trying to promote this like really intense.
00:23:02
Speaker
feeling, but you're like, I don't know what love is. It's not real. You're just like, this is what it looks like to me on movies or TV. So I want to try that. And then you start to have adult experiences in those other capacities. And then you can bring that people don't go to the theater to see a perfect tendu. They go to see artists, they go to see a story, they go to feel something.
00:23:23
Speaker
So if that's what you can do, there will be a spot where you get kind of stopped in your career where you're not going to keep progressing if you don't have the other things. And I totally agree with you that you have to have other parts of your life in order to be the best dancer you can be. Absolutely. I'm picturing this, you dancing to the Celine Dion song at like age, you know, 12. That's such a great image. image because Of course, it's like I remember watching Titanic when I was little and it's like, loved like the emotive song and it's like, you know, yeah, you don't have any real world experience with that. And in additionally, a dance career is a gift and it's a short period of time and it we spend like our entire childhood and adolescence with this one goal in mind and then, you know, our early adulthood, but I'm 34 and
00:24:10
Speaker
I'm starting my career transition now. like I'm still dancing professionally, I'm still gigging, but I work full-time in psychology research now. I took that job in March, and it's been an identity shift, and I was ready for it, and it's a choice that I made. But at 34, I have a whole life and career, and possibly family, and you know all of these things ahead of us. There's a whole life to live, and I do love that it's becoming more common for dancers to get an education while dancing or post-dance career. because there's a lot more out there and you know it will inform your dance career and it will inform the rest of your life. And there are plenty of people who continue post performance career in the dance world, teaching, choreographing, directing, but even so, there are skills that you can learn.
00:24:54
Speaker
elsewhere to help you run a company, help you keep your life organized while choreographing or teaching. And I just think it's so, so
Balancing Freelance Dance and Education
00:25:01
Speaker
crucial. The first third of my career was spent in full time companies. And I was still pretty tunnel visioned at that point. I think it was constantly like, how do I get to the next level? How do I get with the next contract up, you know, it was always about where am I going next versus where am I now. And then the second two thirds of my career,
00:25:19
Speaker
I was in New York and I was piecing away gradually at my degree in psychology at Columbia and freelancing and kind of iterated between freelancing and going back to companies, but all within New York. And those were the years when I danced my best, the years when I was in school on the side and sort of dipping into other interests in school as well. Even as a part-time student, I had a chance to get involved in like writing for college magazines and i was I was the managing editor of Cross Country, Cross Campus magazine for a while and I got involved in like the mentorship program for new students and in Second Act, which is, do you know Second Act? Yeah, I'm a mentor for them too. Oh, amazing, so you do know Second Act.
00:25:59
Speaker
Yeah, so got involved in Second Act and things like that. and And I was able to really cultivate all these parts of my life while still dancing full time. At that point, probably more full time even than when I was in a company because you're not guarded by like, you know, hour chunks of the day. Like I was sometimes rehearsing for like five companies at a time. And I also had my first romantic relationship at that point, which Talk about like, you know, having blinders on and being tunnel vision. I was 26 when I had my first serious relationship, but I danced to my best. I would say like 26 to 30, which is right when COVID hit, but like that was sort of like my career peak. And I think it was not a coincidence that I had a really whole well-rounded life and friends within and without of the dance world. That really changed things
Audition Season and Finding the Right Company Fit
00:26:42
Speaker
for me. Yeah. I have so many questions. I want to go back.
00:26:46
Speaker
I want to go back to that first audition season, because we kind of touched on it. But what was that like for you? What was that experience like? What was your first contract? How did that all go? Yeah, so I was 18, training in Miami. So it was interesting because this was around the time when I was struggling. I mean, not around it was the time when I was struggling with my eating disorder. And so I think audition season, you know, I think it started with like, I'm going to make sure I'm in the best shape I can be when I go out on the audition circuit and you know, you feel out of control and there's so many unknowns when you're, you've spent your entire life training for this and you're like, am I going to get a job?
00:27:22
Speaker
Is this going to be possible? Is this going to happen? This is not an uncommon story, but like one thing you can control is like, are you eating helpfully? Are you in shape? So I kind of started focusing on that and, you know, just in like eating clean and dancing a lot was naturally like in good shape. So I started going to auditions and I was getting good feedback and good amount of attention. And so naturally I was like, oh, it's because I'm thin, like, you know, like I'm in shape. So that kind of reinforced a spiral.
00:27:48
Speaker
And it was interesting because at the beginning of audition season, I was still like strong and healthy and fit. And then as things spiraled out of control, I became too thin and my audition results started to diminish. And I actually had companies say like, we would not take you because you're unhealthy.
00:28:05
Speaker
You know, as a kid, I was like, Oh, yeah, like ABT, like I want a big company, you know, and then when I started training at UNCSA, and I kind of got a sense of what the dance landscape looks like. And I had a pretty good sense of the kind of company that I wanted to strive for. I'm petite, I'm five, two and three quarters, like three according to my resume, you know, so I'm like very much on like the bottom cost of sort of like a standard hype for a company.
00:28:29
Speaker
I don't have the perfect physicality. I don't have banana feet or hyperextended legs. You know, I think over the course of my career, I've learned to make them. Now when I'm like, I had feet completely, what are you talking about? But it's because I've learned to use them. But you know, at 17, 18, you're still figuring these things out. But I knew that I wasn't going to be dancing for like Boston Ballet or ABT. I knew that wasn't going to be a fit for me. I also had teachers in high school and even at the beginning of my career who I got some really good advice from my teachers in high school and looking back. like They were great, but a lot of people told me like your trajectory is probably not going to be super linear. They're like, you're short. You have red hair. You're kind of a specialized dancer. you know um I was always sort of like the spring fairy, the sprightly. I had to learn really hard to sort of manage my energy to be able to fit into a core when I started my professional career. but
00:29:19
Speaker
i was sort of forewarned like you're talented and you'll be able to have a career but it might be harder for you at first because you're not someone who's going to slot into a course so easily for so many reasons from hype to having red you know all of these factors they're like you're sort of going to have to get to a point where you can be dancing soloist roles and that will take time and experience so they're like it might not be a quick or easy start, but write it out and be patient because you can do it. And I think I also knew like the company that I was going to strive for, I really wanted like a medium-sized, well-established, well-respected company where I would hopefully have opportunities to dance and get the experience necessary to go to those places. And it wasn't going to be like a huge company. So I was pretty smart about kind of focusing in on the companies that were realistic, that I thought were going to be a good fit.
Growth and Challenges at Texas Ballet Theatre
00:30:09
Speaker
So I did aim for those companies like Kansas City Valley, Texas Valley Theater, Milwaukee Valley, like that size company, like really respected mid-sized companies. In 2009, when I was auditioning, it was just the time when sort of like, you know, the trainee programs were starting to pop up and everything was changing. And I would say I was pretty lucky and had a pretty easy time
00:30:29
Speaker
I never got stuck in the trainee program world, which was very, very lucky. I was able to bypass that, and I was always able to get like a paid second company contract or apprenticeship, no problem. so That was very lucky. and then i think it was like Just as my teachers have predicted, the second company apprenticeship, totally fine. Getting a core contract was very, very hard, and that took time. and so I took and a linear path to sort of get there. but My first contract was with Texas Ballet Theater. It was actually the first company audition I did that year, and it was a very, very snowy night in Chicago. I had flown in Chicago with my mom, and I have family in Chicago. So we stayed with my aunt and uncle, and my mom was like, why are you going to this audition? It's like you know it's freezing cold out, and like it's Texas. I'm like a liberal Jewish girl. They're like, you're going to go live in Texas. But I went to the audition, and
00:31:22
Speaker
I remember it was like a pretty small group just because of the weather, and Ben Stevenson, who has since retired but was the director, he was there, and then I believe it was Kathy Warakamsky, who was the director of the school. So they were there together, and I remember the entire audition thinking like,
00:31:38
Speaker
I remember I was number eight and I was like, they're watching number nine. They're watching the girl behind me. I was dead sure of it. and Then at the end of the audition, they called over a handful of people and they called over number eight, not number nine. So I had been wrong. I guess they did watch me and I got a scholarship to go to the summer program. That was the year that I was in Miami and going to that summer program and hoping to get that contract was also part of the impetus of me staying healthy and recovering.
00:32:02
Speaker
from the eating disorder. So I went and I had plan A, B, C and D backup plans. Like I'd been offered a trainee position with Festival Ballet Providence, which is now Ballet Rhode Island. And it wasn't like a trainee program. It was like they had three or four of you and like they provide your shoes and a stipend. So it would have been a good opportunity. And then I had like Plan C was like the trainee program at Joffrey in Chicago. I had all this lined up, but I was like, I'm going to go for like the paid contract. So I went to Texas Valley Theater, five-week summer program, ended week four. I remember we were in a contemporary class and they called three women and two men down to the office and we were like, oh my God, is this it? Is this it? and
00:32:41
Speaker
I will never forget that moment, you know, sitting in the office with Ben Stevenson. And I remember like, I'm going to be making a couple hundred dollars a week get and get my shoes paid. And it was just like, I have made it. I have arrived. Like this is it. I remember calling my parents after like bawling, like tears of joy.
00:32:58
Speaker
So I spent two years there and the company structure, I wish companies had like a codified structure across the board, so it was easier to sort of understand. But the way Texas Valley Theater, I think the way they're structured now, they have like a studio company. And then within the company they have this terminology throws people because they have company trainees, company apprentices, and then the company.
00:33:21
Speaker
And typically you hear trainee and you think school, but Texas Ballet Theatre's version of the company trainee is like a paid position. Like it would be more synonymous with Ballet West 2 or like Philadelphia Ballet 2 or Charlotte Ballet 2, something like that. So that's what I was there. I was like, I guess.
00:33:37
Speaker
a company trainee, but like, Texas Valley Theater too, I suppose you could call it. And I sent two seasons there, incredible, incredible place to start my career. Working with Ben Stevenson was unbelievable. The artistic staff at like 19 and 20, I feel like they like broke down and rebuilt my technique.
00:33:54
Speaker
taught me how to work properly. It's a brutal few years breaking into your professional career. The company was so kind and supportive, got to dance a lot, actually got to do Clara and the Nutcracker there, which was really cool. My first year I did school shows only and my second year I got to do like, you know, real shows. A lot of core work and all of Ben's big ballets and at the end of the two years they had budgetary issues and unfortunately had to let I think five or six all but one of us go and it was very tough. I remember going in for my contract talk and I remember seeing some of the artistic staff crying and they were like this was a really hard choice and in retrospect I feel like how they're not been budgetary issues maybe they would have kept me around for another year or two maybe I would have been promoted to apprentice but long term it was not going to be the right place for me. It was an incredible place to start my career but they're a very very classical company and
00:34:50
Speaker
I am not a very, very classical body type. And I think my niche or my comfort area is more contemporary ballet, even though that proved wrong. And I did have more classical opportunities over the years. But I think that could have been a place that I stayed and danced, but it wouldn't have been a place where I thrived. And it's so hard because you get your first contract and you're like, this is it. I'm going to stay here. I'm going to move up the ranks. I'm going to become a principal. I was just listening to Courtney knitting's episode and how she was saying the same thing when she joined Philadelphia Valley. And it's like,
00:35:18
Speaker
you're like i've got this like i got a pay contract like i'm doing it i'm gonna work hard i'm gonna work my way up and then there are factors out of your control and i'm very grateful honestly that they did let me go because i don't think i would have been able to thrive there however having that experience under my belt in that company and my resume. And I'm so grateful because I think it made honestly the rest of my career possible. It really, really opened the gates and jump started things. And like I said, like they broke down and rebuilt my technique and taught me how to work for like longevity in my career. Like I used to grip my thighs and like work so hard. And they taught me how to work properly. And they were like, if you don't stop working like that, you will retire at 23 because your body will crumble. So they taught me how to work in like a healthy way. And
00:36:03
Speaker
then i had fifteen years of a career so that was my first job sorry that was a very long-winded no that was amazing that was amazing and i feel like so one thing i do tell my dancers is like not everywhere that you fit it is going to be where you belong and that's really hard to understand when you're at that age because you're like I'm here, I'm doing well, I'm fitting in. yeah And it's so funny, because just the other day I heard, I think it was Renee Brown, and I'm probably gonna get this wrong. i love was talk I know, she's so great. She's talking about how like, fitting in is actually the opposite of belonging. Because belonging means that you don't have to change anything about yourself, who you are belongs, but fitting in means you're having to change things about yourself to become the person who fits into this place. so like
00:36:47
Speaker
while they seem very similar, they're actually polar opposites. And I feel like that's something that a lot of dancers, when you start your career, you feel like I have to fit into the slot and be this person you want me to be because that's how the shoe works. That's how the career works. And then if you're lucky, eventually you find a place where you actually truly belong. And then yeah, like you were saying earlier, all of a sudden you it just opens up and you're doing your best dancing and you realize even if it wasn't a bad environment that I was in, even if it was a great place, it just wasn't
00:37:19
Speaker
the right place for me and that's okay that is so spot on i love bernie brown so much and that is a brilliant way to put it and it is very true it's like i look at my friends who joined the company with me in texas and there are a few of them who are still there they're now ranked in the company and they're actually two of my closest friends who I joined with are actually principals there now, which is amazing. But you know, it's like when I look at the dancers I was with there, and I look at the company roster now, like a lot of classical body types, like, you know, nice feet and legs, and that's not me, you know, and so I'm i'm grateful that they saw something in me and hired me for those two years and gave me the start to my professional career. And that's okay, but it's not where the rest of my career was, you know, it was devastating at the time.
Persistence and Finding the Right Company Fit
00:38:03
Speaker
when I was let go, you go through that brief phase of like, Oh my gosh, my life is over. But yeah, there's a future elsewhere, you know, and you have to be persistent and you have to, I put up a little like Instagram post when I hit 15 years dancing professionally. I think I was telling you about this earlier and and it was just sort of like my reflections on, this is my reflections on this career. And one of the things that I said is like, if you're going to have a career as a ballet dancer, you have to have to dance, right? Like it's too hard a career if you don't have to have to do it but I think I said like if dancing makes you feel more alive and more whole then you have to find a way to do it and if one company says no or you're no longer a fit at one company if you have to have to do it and you know you have the training and the talent and something to offer like there will be somewhere else and it may take time and it did take me time. I never had a hard time having a job but it took me time to find the right place where I really was thriving.
00:39:00
Speaker
It was a slow process. Like I would say it wasn't until I was 19 when I got my contract with Texas Valley Theater. It wasn't until I was 26 or seven years in that I really felt like I'm doing the things that I, that I felt like truly fulfilled in my career and that it took a couple of companies to get there.
00:39:16
Speaker
yeah I also danced in Eugene, Oregon, Eugene Ballet Company.
Freelancing Challenges and Networking in NYC
00:39:20
Speaker
I was an apprentice there, so they I think their structure has since changed too, but at the time they had trainees, and then they had a spirette, and then they had a couple apprentices, and then the company. So I was an apprentice.
00:39:32
Speaker
I was there for two seasons. you know We toured a lot. We would do like 65, 70 shows a season on the road. I got to do like all the core, a lot of demi-soulless, some soulless roles, got to do some contemporary work. Right when I joined the company, they had repetitive from Joffrey come in to set Gerald Arpino's Light Rain, and I was chosen to be in that, and that was really cool. I built an amazing experience there.
00:39:55
Speaker
But you know at the end of the two years, they just didn't have any company members leave, so there were no contracts. And of course, I knew that that was a possibility, and I wasn't fixated on spending the rest of my career there, because I think at that point, I knew the dance world works like this. you know A place could be a stepping stone. So you it was funny, I auditioned again after leaving Eugene. And at this point, I was 23 and I had four years of really solid professional experience with solid companies under my belt, paid second company thing in the paint apprentice position. And I was obviously like, okay, I want that full company contract. Additioned all around, got very good feedback. or like You're a very good dancer.
00:40:33
Speaker
a couple other places where like, we don't have a company contract, but we can offer you an apprenticeship. And then the places I appreciate the most actually are the ones that told me, we don't have a company contract, if we could offer you an apprenticeship, but you're beyond that and don't devalue yourself. And for those places, I'm very grateful. Of course, at the time I was like, but I just want to chill out. But I am very, very grateful for those places. I think simultaneously, while I was in Eugene, there were a couple guys who were guesting with the company. They became dear friends of mine who had both left full-time companies to pursue freelance careers. And they had started talking to me about a freelance career.
00:41:08
Speaker
And I remember being like, there's no way I'm a girl. Like, it's very different when you're a guy. And like, not to minimize what they've done. They're both incredibly talented and resourceful. And they both have built incredible freelance creation themselves, like by no fluke, or it's not just because they're, you know, they worked for that. But I'm like, there's no way as a woman. And they really pushed me, they were like, keep auditioning for companies and see what happens. But you have the right personality to be a freelancer, you're the right kind of dancer, you're outgoing, you're versatile. Consider it.
00:41:38
Speaker
I started considering it. It was like very late in audition season. It was maybe like May. I think I started kind of thinking about, okay, well, maybe I'll look into freelancing. And, you know, I was on the West coast at that point and I was like, okay, maybe I'll stay on the West coast and I'll look at the Bay area. And there were a lot of really good companies and ah like a big freelance scene popping up there.
00:41:57
Speaker
i never consider new york new york scared me you midwest i felt like that i'm like i'm a midwest yeah girl like new york wall you know no no visited in new york a few times with my
00:42:12
Speaker
I can't live in a place like New York. I'd also been living in Fort Worth, Texas, and Eugene, Oregon. These are not New York City. It's just very different. But I was trying to I just be as open never-minded as considered possible about the path New York. and the companies I New York scared me. auditioned for. And there are a few things that led me to New York. First, a friend of mine encouraged me to come audition for Phantom of the Opera.
00:42:31
Speaker
And I was like, okay, I'll come to New York on audition for Phantom. And then I had gotten a company class audition with New York Theatre Ballet. And I did my audition and they were like, you know, we really like you. You're exactly the right size and type for a company. Like they were pretty petite dancers. So I kind of fit in well. And they were like, we need to wait. Our dancers returned their contract in like June was very late. So they're like, we need to see if anyone leaves and if there's an opening, but we like you. And if, if someone leaves, like probably hire you. And I was like, cool. So I started thinking about New York. And I think at that point, you know, I'm like, I'm like,
00:43:01
Speaker
desperate. I'm like, what the heck am I gonna do with my life? I was also invited out to Hamburg to audition for Phantom of the Opera there. And then it was like the same thing where they were like, sorry, everyone returned their contracts and nobody leave it. It's like there was just so much of that. Yeah. With New York Theatre Valley, it ended up being that also nobody let go of their contract, but they were like, but we will need supplemental dancers for the season. So if you do end up in New York, please let us know and like we would hire you. So anyways, a couple of things that sort of led me to New York and I was like, you know what, I'm just going to do it, like throw caution to the wind and move to New York. I also knew that I had wanted to start school part time and very randomly, my family was at a wedding in June of that summer. And it was the wedding of two of my friends from Texas Ballet Theater, went to the wedding and met a friend of the Brides family who she had danced with Philly Ballet and Suzanne Farrow Ballet and was also freelancing and
00:43:55
Speaker
was at Columbia's School of General Studies, and she started talking to, actually to my mom, and she was like, well, if your daughter's interested in, like, so dancing professionally and, you know, doing some school, like, she should apply to Columbia General Studies. They love dancers, because everyone knows that dancers are phenomenal workers and students. So it was like this kind of conglomeration of random factors, and I was like, what the heck, I'll just throw in an application.
00:44:19
Speaker
and got in and I was like, okay, well, I'll move to New York and I'll start at Columbia part time and I'll just like see what the heck happens with dancing. And I thought, okay, like I'll do this for a year and then I'll go back to a full-time company. But as I was telling you earlier, I found that my life was more holistic and more fulfilling, and freelancing just like took off. It just happened really easily. I think because I came with a good amount of professional experience under my belt, I was really, really proactive about sending out my materials. Every audition that I could find or hear about, I talked to people left and right, was asking questions, was like, if you know of somebody looking for dancers, you know, I was in class at steps at Parodance, at the Broadway Dance Center, and I'm an outgoing person, so I just sort of chatted with people and was open. and
00:45:04
Speaker
I was very active on social media about posting when I had a gig or something and somehow I moved to New York in August of 2014. I did an audition and booked that gig and then, you know, again, was like active about posting on social media like, oh, I'm performing with this, performing with that.
00:45:21
Speaker
Fortunately, or unfortunately as a dancer, it's like social media sort of has to be your brand. And if people see you actively working and you're sort of in front of them, they think of you. So I had people reaching out of the woodwork from summer programs years ago who were like, oh, I've i've started a small company in New York or New Jersey. And one of my dancers is traveling during this show. Do you want to jump in? So somehow by October of 2014, I had been in New York for two months.
00:45:45
Speaker
I had a full season of work lined up, which was like, what? And I'm like, cool, that was lucky. That went well. But it wasn't just luck. You worked hard for it. I was also so anxious that I was like, I will be hypervigilant. I probably could have afforded to chill a little, but it's that hustle. I think I struggled for a few years with, okay, well, it just continued to go well.
Fulfillment and Growth at Aglevsky Ballet
00:46:07
Speaker
For 10 years, really, I just had consistent work. It was very lucky.
00:46:12
Speaker
And I was very proactive, and like once you sort of make a name for yourself in a community and are known and consistent, you know your name spreads around. You stop having to even really audition because you know it's a lot of word of mouth hiring or like recommendations. But I think those first few years, I really was like, okay, this is going really well, and I'm really enjoying my time here, and I'm really liking school, and I have great friends here. and 26, I started dating my first serious boyfriend and we were together for five years and like all of these factors, and but I still was like, ah, but I really want that like company contract somewhere. There was still a little bit of that. So I really like
00:46:50
Speaker
kind of felt pulled and I wasn't sure. But in 2017, Aglevsky Valley on Long Island, they were looking to hire company dancers and Aglevsky Valley is sort of iterated over the years. Like they've had a full-time professional company, then they've just been to school due to budgetary reasons. and Maurice Brandon Curry, who has been the director there for the past 10 years, he's actually retiring at the end of this season, but he was planning to restart a whole company. And my partner at the time was actually living on Long Island and I was like, great, I'll audition, we'll see. um So Maurice hired me and I actually pretty quickly started dancing soloist roles and then principal roles. And I think that really for me, like check that box of like, okay, I've done it, I've had like a company contract and
00:47:33
Speaker
It was at that point that I really was like the only reason that I would audition elsewhere in another city for a company contract again would be like for my ego. It would just be to check a box, but would I truly be happy? No. So that's where, you know, what I was saying before, it's like all of these life factors come in to play. Had it been 10 years earlier, I would have been like, I'm just going for like the biggest contract I can get. But at that point, it was like,
00:47:58
Speaker
I have a whole life here. I have so many things that I love here. I'm not willing to give that up just to go check a box and to sort of like quell my ego or my like, even if ego is the right word, but just really to check the box that I felt like I needed to be like, oh, I made it, you know?
00:48:15
Speaker
I danced for Glebsky for four seasons, had some amazing opportunities. Maurice choreographed a full length Cinderella and I was Cinderella and that was my first principal role. And then he really like pushed me to do roles that were outside of my comfort zone. Like I never saw myself as the ballerina. I was like, I'm like the spring fairy. But he was like, no, we're going to push you out of your comfort zone. So I did do drop. I did Cinderella. I did a whole bunch of classical roles and dance there for four seasons. And then also continued freelancing. And it was just a very fulfilling time.
00:48:45
Speaker
Those four years, 27, 8, 9, 30, I felt like it was like my career peak. I got to do a lot of principal guestings elsewhere too and it just it was a very fulfilling time and it was like my life is whole and I'm getting to do what I love. I made these decisions because these work for me as a person and not just me as a dancer and that was really cool.
00:49:04
Speaker
Does the mere thought of audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it.
Preparing for Professional Auditions
00:49:17
Speaker
As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves. That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide.
00:49:32
Speaker
This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease. No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package. With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional.
00:49:48
Speaker
We're talking resumes, headshots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it, it is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultimate Audition Guide and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional.
00:50:12
Speaker
I want to kind of shift into talking about pursuing psychology and going into that, what made you want to study psychology?
Ballet's Influence on Psychology Interest
00:50:21
Speaker
Bali made me want to study psychology. and It's funny because people always ask me, they're like, professional ballet and psychology research, like that's a weird pipeline. like How did you get there? and I'm like, well, if you know anything about the world of professional ballet, it's like the only pipeline that makes sense to me. 1920, my first years in professional ballet companies, I obviously went through hand eating disorder,
00:50:43
Speaker
ton of anxiety I still struggle with anxiety, like welcome to being a dancer and a woman. It's great, you know? All of these things and I saw so many of my friends and colleagues dealing with various mental health struggles and just like the sheer perfectionism.
00:50:59
Speaker
I'm actually working on ah a research paper with a research team right now that literally looks at professional ballet companies, dehumanization, and how it prompts maladaptive perfectionism. and like yeah I always joke that like working on this project on the right day, it's really gratifying, and it's like, okay, cool. I'm not the only one who's gone through this. On the wrong day, it's just incredibly triggering.
00:51:19
Speaker
but i think It really is. I was recruited for that study as a participant, and then when they found out that I had research experience, they were like, hold on, scratch your interview. We're taking you on as a research assistant. didn and it's ended up I've worked with this team for three and a half years now, and they're amazing. and It's been so cool to be part of this project. We just submitted a new draft of our paper to a journal yesterday, so fingers crossed. Okay, well, let us know because we're going to need to read that.
00:51:42
Speaker
I will, absolutely, absolutely. But no, so yeah, like in my early days, dancing in companies, it was just like, I saw so many of my colleagues struggling, and I was struggling, and I really enjoyed giving dressing room pep talks and talking to people and people were like, Oh, you're really good at this. Like, you're really good at pep talks, you should be a therapist someday. So in my mind, I was like, well, great, when when I'm done dancing, I'll be a therapist for this is very like glorified view of what it meant to have a career in psychology.
00:52:08
Speaker
When I started at Columbia, I was like, well, obviously I'm going to study psychology because I want to be a therapist one day. And I kind of fell in love with the research portion and Columbia's like research, research, research. They like really like hammer that home because that's where they get all their funding. And so I kind of joke. I was like brainwashed into loving research. My interests have shifted throughout the years. Like I no longer want to be a clinician or a therapist in my next career. I do want to work in like on the research and policy side of things. And I think.
00:52:36
Speaker
what I'm super interested in is looking at how trauma and stress and not necessarily trauma and stress from like an acute crisis, but more from like the sustained time that you spend training in ballet, for example, or working in, you know, a dehumanizing work environment. And of course, the dance world has come a long way and is continuing to work towards and I hope will continue to work towards healthier workspaces. But there are just some aspects of the culture that are so deeply ingrained and they are still there and just will take a long time to change. And so I'm really interested in building my next career but in psychology, looking at how people can better manage and cope with stress and adversity to improve mental health outcomes and therefore improve physical health outcomes because there's a lot of research on this. It's very validated scientifically that mental health stress
00:53:26
Speaker
really has negative physical health outcomes too. So I'm sort of navigating that and figuring out that direction as well as I go and you know sort of get my feet wet and in this second career. But really, yes, like looking at better ways of coping with stress and trauma to improve mental health and physical health outcomes.
00:53:42
Speaker
And we'll see where that takes me. Eventually, I want to do a PhD in psychology, possibly like an MPH, a Master's in Public Health, because I really like the policy side of things. One thing that I found, and it's so hard for us as dancers, but you really just sort of have to let it flow. And and my boyfriend tells me this all the time. He's in academia. He's a biomedical engineer. So he's been through all of this stuff many times. And he's always like, really, the only way is that you find the things that you're passionate about. You find the things that are meaningful and important to you and where you want to make your mark. And you pursue those with passion and curiosity and you pursue them wholeheartedly. And then you sort of see where the road takes you. And it's the same thing with a ballet career. You sort of have an idea of what you want, but then you just sort of have to let the road take you. I think we could all afford, particularly as dancers, to trust ourselves a little more and have a little more faith in our own competencies and abilities and just trust that no matter what we choose, we'll make it work.
00:54:36
Speaker
and we'll grow from it and we'll learn from it and it'll either be the right thing or it'll take us to the next right thing. So I'm trying really hard to adopt that mindset and I sometimes am good with that and sometimes I, you know, spiral into my like, what's the right move? You know, it's definitely been a journey making this career transition.
Transitioning Identity from Dance to New Career
00:54:53
Speaker
What has surprised you the most about this transition?
00:54:57
Speaker
You know, people always say like a dancer dies twice and you know, when you retire, it's like a death for a dancer. And I was always like, well, that's a little dramatic. Like, you know, like maybe when I was younger, I was like, Oh, yeah, I could see that. But I think as I've gotten older, and, you know, was also in school and had other things going on, I was like, Okay, that's a little dramatic. Like I have other things I'm passionate about and other things I'll want to pursue. And it'll be sad, but I'll be okay. What has been the most surprising is like, I wasn't pushed out.
00:55:23
Speaker
wasn't injured, this was a choice. And granted, I'm not like, retired, like, I still take class and perform. I'm actually going to a rehearsal for a nutcracker guesting right after this. But like, this was my choice. And I have been on the cusp of being ready for it for a while. You know, at 34, most of my friends and classmates have retired.
00:55:41
Speaker
But even so, the identity crisis did still accompany and continues to accompany this ride. And I'm like, wow, the whole dancer dies twice thing is maybe not as dramatic as as I thought. It has been a tough, tough ride emotionally. I'm very grateful for the support of my partner and friends and family. Even dancing now, like gigging and not dancing full time. Like I'm still coping with like, okay, I'm not going to be the dancer that I was when I was full time. I'm not going to be like as tiny as I was, you know, there comes the body image issues as I was when I was dancing full time and coming to a place of acceptance and comfort with I'm still dancing and gigging because I love it and I want to bring, you know, hopefully some joy to people on the stage. There's enough going on in the world. Like we could all use some joy and I'm not going to be the alley that I was when I was, you know, a full-time professional dancer in my peak and like dance and do drop. Like that's not where I am now. You know, I've chosen
00:56:40
Speaker
to focus my priorities elsewhere. I listened to your podcast where you talked about your story and your journey starting the Brainy Ballerina. And it's like, you know, there are just other priorities. Like if you have kids, like I have a partner and i we're going to eventually build a family together. And so I wanted to devote my time to my life with my partner and my family and my friends and this research and this work that I feel is really meaningful and important. I will hopefully help dancers and other people. I was offered actually a second Nutcracker gig this year and I thought long and hard about it and I turned it down because I was like, you know, while it would be fun to dance again. Actually it was Oglovski Balai where I danced for four years and the director's about to retire and he's like, do you want to come back and dance for Nutcracker this year? And I thought really really hard about it and
00:57:22
Speaker
just like with my work schedule and all the other things in my life, like it just wouldn't have been doable and healthy and just priority shifts. But it has been a journey and I do have my ups and downs with the identity crisis. People will be like, oh, what do you do? You know, I think that it's kind of an annoying, very American question. Apparently people don't ask that. I have a lot of friends from Europe and they're like, oh no, people don't ask, hi, I'm John, what do you do? I'm like this, you know, but in America, like and it's like, oh, like what do you do? Yeah, we're so work centric, like your identity is tied to your work that is So interesting though that that people yeah, isn't that interesting? But it is funny because like people always ask this and I'm like, I'm still struggling with it What do I say like do sometimes I'm like, okay Well, I was a professional ballet dancer for 15 years and now I'm in the midst of a career transition I work in psychology research, but I still perform I'm not at a point where I can be like, I'm a psychology researcher. yeah And then sometimes I'm like, oh, I'm a professional dancer and a psychology researcher, because I do still dance professionally. I still gig. It's just not full time. But I'm still sort of in that phase of i'm like navigating what to say. And that's kind of an interesting thing. And whenever someone's like, oh, you really look like a dancer, I'm like, oh.
00:58:31
Speaker
Thank you. You know what I mean? It's just like the best moment ever. Like, oh, I still have my dancer identity. It's been a process and I think we'll continue to be and it is such a huge part of our identity. But I also think that it just shapes and colors what we do next in so many ways. And, you know, once a dancer, always a dancer will always carry all of this with us. It's a weird kind of no man's land time. And I really thought that making the decision on my own would kind of like mitigate the sadness and like the identity crises and it is not.
00:59:02
Speaker
is Not at all. That is so true. And I'm so glad you said that because I think people do feel like when you go through it, not by your choice, it feels like very normal to be like in a state of identity crisis. I felt the same way like I am choosing to step away from this career and go to the next thing. So in my head, I almost felt like I didn't deserve to have an identity crisis. I was like, yes, you think you are. Now you chose this. And so you get like,
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah, you get so in your head about it. And honestly, like it will pop up for me at the weirdest times people will ask me what I do. And I'm like, I'm a stay at home mom. And then I'm like, well, actually, I run an entire business. Yeah, I teach dance. And then I'm like trying to explain my fast career like It is funny how like these things will pop up for you at random times and you almost feel the sense of needing to prove I did this though I did it and like, yeah, no I don't look like I did it anymore or my life is totally different. This was so hard to achieve. And I mean, it was yeah wife did it is a very strange place. And I feel like even six years out, it's still
01:00:04
Speaker
pops up at strange times. And I have to remind myself, you're allowed to feel the way you feel even if you chose it. Yeah, no, it's true. And I think it's just we've, we were talking about training as a kid in an adolescent before and just, you know, you have to have blinders on and be so tunnel visioned and sort of like that like has to be your everything. and And it's so ingrained in us that even when we do learn to be more well-rounded people or we've moved on or we're in a different phase of our lives or dancing or not dancing, you know whatever. It's just so deeply ingrained into our psyche. you know I don't think we'll ever fully be able to let go of that. but Truly, once a dancer, always a dancer. and It's kind of a question of like over time, you know as you're career shifting or you know moving out of a full-time dance career, it's sort of like, what is my relationship with dance now? and
01:00:51
Speaker
Over the summer, I was like, okay, like I was actually performing, but I was like, I can't be in ballet class regularly. like I just need something different. So I was taking a lot of hot yoga, and now I'm like, okay, well, Nutcracker season's approaching, so I'm back in class. I'm back in the boots, you know? And it's like, I love it. I still love it, but it's sort of constantly reassessing. like What do I want my relationship with ballet to look like? And it's constantly changing. and That's hard when it was the central tenet of my existence. Even in those years, in my upper 20s, early 30s, when I was well-rounded and in school, ballet still ruled all. you know it's like It is still a lifestyle. You have to have so much focus on it, and it's very different.
01:01:32
Speaker
very very different now. But it is cool because I have seen a lot of friends be transparent both in person and even on social media about the transition out of dancing or retirement and priorities shifting and it is kind of helpful to just see people my age and people around me and realize like we all hit this point where it's like This isn't my focus anymore because I i don't want it to be. like I want this other thing, like my family or my partner or my other work to be sort of my focus. And it is kind of cool how that organically happens. like It's been a very organic process for me, even though I still have the identity crisis that accompanies it. But it is just sort of like, wow, this is a really meaningful career to me. It was really fulfilling. I did it. for a long time and now there are other things that are meaningful to me and it's not like I'm going to forget that ballet was ever part of my identity. It completely informs who I am and all these other parts of my identity, but it's not my central thing now. It's been a ride. yeah
01:02:30
Speaker
absolutely yeah And we'll continue to be. I don't know we need like a retired dancer support group or something because for real truly I think so many of us feel this way and and you kind of want to push it down because you don't want to I don't know what it is that makes it hard to talk about the shit and maybe it is the choice that you've made or you don't want to see one grateful for or whatever it is. We talked about this before we even started recording just hearing stories and talking about it is really and past well because we connected because you just messaged me about and another yeah episode that really resonated with you. And I was like, okay, wait, I want to talk to you on the podcast. yeah so It's also full circle. We all have these stories. and It really helps dancers to hear this.
01:03:11
Speaker
no matter what stage you're at you're so right hearing other stories it is honestly the thing that keeps me going when i'm in my sort of darkest moments of doubt i'm like wait these other dancers who have come onto the podcast for example and i view them as incredibly successful dancers with these beautiful careers then you hear story and it's not as
01:03:34
Speaker
You said this, and I love this. You're like, yeah, dancers' bios are not exactly honest. It like tells you all the great things you've done. This is where I dance. These are roles I dance. It doesn't say, oh, I got let go of this job. It doesn't say, I got injured and couldn't do this. It's curated. It's curated. Social media makes that worse. like It's very curated. OK, last question. What advice would you give to an aspiring dancer pursuing a career?
01:03:57
Speaker
A couple of things, and you actually just started getting into one of them. It was what we talked about before we recorded, but just that about the bios. I always tell younger dancers this. When you were looking at another dancer's bio, you were only seeing their successes, not their failures. And if we were to write out you know our true story, or if we were to be a little bit more transparent and less curated on social media, I think we would see that more dancers than you think, people who seem to have very successful careers have had a linear paths.
01:04:24
Speaker
I've had to reroute. I sometimes like to joke. My career was built by each failure. I rerouted to the next step. and yeah For me, I went through every step of the way. Second company, apprenticeship, freelance company, souls, principal, like principal guest artists, like everything. It took time. You know, I've had a lot of younger dancers call to me and be like, how did you do so much? It's so cool. And I'm like, well, let me tell you about all the things that were challenging and didn't work out along the way about all the moments of doubt. So I think that's key. The comparison game is a really, really dangerous game. And it can be inspiring to read other people's stories, but I think it's more helpful to sit down and talk to someone and hear their story and hear the truth of it. And then my other piece of advice we touched on as well, which is there are other factors that will shape your life decision and it doesn't make you less of a dancer or less of an artist or less of a committed dancer and artist if your career decisions are informed by other life factors as well.
01:05:17
Speaker
In order to be an artist, you need to be a whole person and you need to have life experience. And it is okay to make choices holistically and not just because of ballet. And that will change over time. It will become more like that. I think the older you get and the more you have in your life. Hard to see that I think at age 17. Yeah, for sure. Because I think those would be my two biggest pieces of advice. Yeah, so, so good. Allie, this has been amazing.
01:05:41
Speaker
Can you tell us how we can connect with you? Instagram is Ali underscore P underscore block. I'm also on Facebook. I'm on LinkedIn. I also have a website that is not at all up to date. It's Ali page block.com. Yeah. Find me on Instagram. I'm always happy to chat with people. I have a lot of people refer younger dancers who are starting their careers or, you know, wanting to freelance or people mid-career who are wanting to switch to freelancing to me. And I love talking to people about this kind of stuff because.
01:06:10
Speaker
It helps to your stories. It helps your stories to help you navigate. Yeah. Thank you so much, Ali. This is amazing. Thank you. I had so much fun. Thank you for having me on.
01:06:20
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too.
01:06:46
Speaker
I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.