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35. Cultivating Body Image Resilience with The Whole Dancer’s Jess Spinner
133 Plays30 days ago
Jess Spinner is a former professional dancer turned multi-certified holistic health, nutrition, and lifestyle coach for dancers. She founded The Whole Dancer in 2015 to help dancers prioritize their well-being, find peace with their bodies, feel confident in their food choices, and put their health first.
One of the many things I love about Jess is how open she is with her story dealing with body image struggles and how this colored her entire experience as a dancer. In this episode, Jess is incredibly relatable with her own past as well as providing actionable tips for dancers dealing with body image issues. I truly admire the caring, but fierce mama bear approach she takes in her work as a coach. If you’ve ever struggled with your body image, this episode is a must-listen!
Key Moments:
- Jess’s early dance training [1:38]
- How Jess decided to attend college for dance and what her experience was like at Butler University [3:36]
- Her transition from student to joining Louisville Ballet to freelance dancer in Boston [9:17]
- What led Jess to found The Whole Dancer [14:48]
- Jess’s personal struggle with body image as a dancer [17:14]
- How Jess was able to heal her body image [24:07]
- The first steps a dancer should take when they are struggling with body image [27:33]
- How dancers can find body image resilience within their dance career [34:53]
- The #1 change Jess would like to see in the dance industry [38:11]
- Her biggest piece of advice for dancers pursuing a career [48:03]
Connect with Jess:
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thewholedancer
WEBSITE: thewholedancer.com
YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/@TheWholeDancer
PODCAST: https://open.spotify.com/show/5739hERGw6QXWoRjgGu6M4?si=e29134ce3de14ece
Links and Resources:
Set up ticketing for your next event with DRT (Make sure to mention that The Brainy Ballerina sent you!)
Get your copy of The Ultimate Audition Guide
1-1 Career Mentoring: book your complimentary career call
Let’s connect!
My WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Rewriting Your Body Story
00:00:00
Speaker
I do this thing called rewriting your body story where you take all of these just like journal prompts, right? But you do all of this writing to uncover where it came from and then to decide what you would like your experience of your body and dance to be. It's helpful and empowering to feel like you get to write your own story and you don't have to fit yourself into some box that people have tried to fit you into.
Introduction to Caitlin
00:00:27
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the brand new ballerina podcast.
Building Sustainable Dance Careers
00:00:34
Speaker
I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. I'm peeling back the curtain of professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
00:01:01
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the brainy ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin
The Whole Dancer: A Holistic Approach
00:01:05
Speaker
Sloan. And I'm here today with Jess Spinner. Jess is a former professional dancer turned multi-certified holistic health, nutrition, and lifestyle coach for dancers. She founded the whole dancer in 2015 to help dancers prioritize their wellbeing, find peace with their bodies.
00:01:22
Speaker
feel confident in their food choices and put their health first. Jess, I really admire you and all the work you do in this industry and I am so thrilled to chat with you today. Thank you so much. The feeling is mutual and I'm always so happy to connect with you.
00:01:36
Speaker
Yeah, me too. I want to start from the very beginning of your dance journey. Will you tell us why you took your very first dance class? You know what? That's a really good question. And I'm not actually sure I have an answer. I think that my mother, I don't know that she danced when she was little or anything, but she just put my sister and I in dance classes. And my sister had no interest. And I don't think she even lasted a whole year.
00:02:02
Speaker
but I was really into it and the thing that probably kept me going from a little person was I really loved being on stage. I liked that aspect of going off sort of and like performing and so that's definitely why I stuck with it.
00:02:20
Speaker
And then what was your training like growing
Transition to Professional Ballet
00:02:22
Speaker
up? So I started at a really, you know, like a small recreational studio where we did combination ballet, tap and jazz in like 90 minutes, right? Like where you did 30 minutes of each thing.
00:02:36
Speaker
Which is kind of funny to think about now. Like, I guess that sort of thing probably does still exist, but it seems like so distant in the past, but it's an interesting concept. So we did combination ballet tap and jazz. And I was there probably from the time I was three or four until I was 12. And when I was around 11, the dance studio owner, she started bringing in a professional ballet instructor.
00:03:02
Speaker
And I don't know if it was just for me, but looking back, it kind of seems like maybe it was, but she brought in this person who was legit ballet background. I can still picture her. I don't remember her name, but I can picture, you know, like the lines and the turnout and. just how different it was from what I was used to. I was already on point. I think I got on point when I was like nine or something like that. But it was there that then my studio owner at that initial school said to me, I think you should leave and go somewhere where they actually can teach you ballet. And so then I trained at the Aglefsky ballet school or the school affiliated with the Aglefsky ballet at that time on Long Island. And I was there through high school. And then I went to college.
00:03:44
Speaker
And how did you decide to attend college for dance?
Dance Career vs. College
00:03:48
Speaker
My story in that, I think, is kind of funny because I was at my first summer intensive, which was at my home school, the Aklefsky. And one of the teachers said to us, I don't remember the words exactly, but whatever she said, I got the message that if you want to dance professionally, you can't go to college. And I was 13 probably at the time. And I went home that day and I said to my mom, if I want to dance professionally, I can't go to college. My mother was, like, devastated. And she was like, wait.
00:04:14
Speaker
No, you have to go to college. So it became this conversation over the years where ultimately we came to the agreement that I would go to college, but I could go to college for dance. And, you know, looking back to, I know I was not ready for a company at 18, mentally, emotionally, from a technical perspective, none of it. So it was definitely the right choice for me in my actual artistic growth as well. I think we're around the same age and that was definitely the message at that time. Yes.
00:04:44
Speaker
You don't go to college for dance because I don't think that for our teachers, that was really an option. Like there weren't college dance programs. So we were kind of one of the first generations that had that option in a more serious way. And I feel like they were just like, what are you doing? That's not the path you take. Yeah, definitely.
00:05:02
Speaker
You know, it was like right before second company and trainee and studio, like it was like right before that all started. Like you said, they just saw this straight path. You audition for companies and you start as an apprentice or court of ballet dancer. Yeah, they had not actually imagined that there could be a different route, I guess at that point.
00:05:20
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it was definitely a different landscape. It truly was more straightforward, I think then. and Right. That's a whole other conversation. For better or worse, right? Yeah. And you went
Balancing Dance and Academics
00:05:30
Speaker
to Butler? Yes. What was your experience like? It was very good in a lot of ways. In my high school training, I was able to maintain my high school friendships and experience separately from my dance friendships and experience. And Butler kind of allowed me to have that again, where I had friends who were business majors and pharmacy majors. and
00:05:53
Speaker
And I actually only lived with, in one of the years where I had six roommates, only one of my roommates was a dancer and the rest were other majors. That aspect of it really did provide some balance because I could go home and it wasn't just talking about dance all the time or casting or what had happened. And, you know, my roommate, especially, she was a marketing major. And when I would talk to her about casting, she would talk about it in such a lighthearted and funny way, but she'd be silly about the drama. And so it kind of gave me good perspective to not overthink it or be like, this is the most important thing in the world because she would just talk about it in this way that I was like, yeah, I guess it really shouldn't matter that much to me. I shouldn't be devastated about it anyway.
Impact of Body Comments
00:06:37
Speaker
And the dancing for me, because I had started struggling in my dance journey when I was probably about 14,
00:06:43
Speaker
and got my first body comment from a teacher. That was such a pivotal moment and unfortunately I wasn't able to shake it even throughout my training at Butler and beyond. And so as much as there were aspects of the dance program that I loved and enjoyed and professors who I worked with who were wonderful and I actually never got any body feedback while I was there, it was just so internalized that it was always on my mind. So I always say a big part of my dance journey was just kind of clouded by that all the time. That's very interesting because I had a very similar experience of getting my first fat talk at 14 and it was a theme throughout my whole career but I never had a comment during college also yeah about that and I wonder why that is and it's just because
00:07:31
Speaker
you're paying so much money to be there. It's just like a different setting or because it's like the academic setting, you can't there's more rules in place. You can't maybe say the things they say in other settings. I don't know, but that is an interesting point that you make. That was the only time in my career that I wasn't hearing that.
00:07:46
Speaker
My body was no different. Right. Yeah, a faculty member who is no longer on faculty there had had a conversation with a friend of mine. So I do know that it was kind of happening. I would say for me, a lot of my body stuff after age 14 was self created, I maintained the position regardless of how big or small I was that my legs were too big and so teachers might have looked at me and thought nothing like that at that point but it was still always in my head and my sophomore year I was injured and that was the only time while at Butler that I actually gained quite a bit of weight and I wonder if kind of because I was coming back from injury they like gave me a pass and
00:08:30
Speaker
and didn't say anything at that point. And then of course, because of how my brain was working at that time, over that summer between sophomore year and junior year, my probably number one goal was to lose weight. And so I showed up at the start of my junior year, probably at my thinnest since freshman year, you know, so they didn't maybe have the chance to say anything. yeah But it's an, it is an interesting thing, right? And I do think some of it may play in where, like you said,
00:08:59
Speaker
They don't necessarily want to lose a dance major because it's a lot of money for them. And, you know, I think already dance majors can easily shift out of it over those four years. You're probably right that at a number of programs, they're just not going to say anything about it mostly because they don't want to lose
Auditioning and Ballet Casting
00:09:16
Speaker
the money. Yeah. I want to definitely talk about the body image piece, but I'm curious what your transition from students in college student to professional was like, how did that go for you? Yeah, I went out and auditioned in my senior year. It was lucky, I think, with Butler, as far as locations, since we were so close to Chicago, and a lot of auditions come through there. So that was definitely a benefit, especially because, as you know, at that time, it nothing was online or like very little was online. Like when did the internet start? Like when we were in college, probably. I was like the generation where you had to have a um college email address to get a Facebook account.
00:09:54
Speaker
Yes, exactly. Same. Yeah, it was such a big deal too when it came. So we went out and auditioned and I auditioned with some friends and I do often share that. I went out and auditioned with my best friends from the dance department who happened to be the ones cast as Sugar Plum and Doudrop, lead roles. And I was a flower demi soloist my senior year. And I went out on like the first couple of auditions and I had this moment where I remember thinking to myself,
00:10:22
Speaker
this is such a huge mistake that I'm out here auditioning with these people because obviously they're going to choose the friends who were cast in these lead roles because clearly they're better than me right because that's what we tell ourselves with casting we're like this means they're a better dancer and they have a greater likelihood to succeed and I always share this with clients because it's it's just such a a mindset shift where we were given opportunities at different auditions, none of the same opportunities were given to us. I was chosen to stay for things that these friends were not chosen to stay, they were chosen to stay for other things. And so it was very validating in that I actually realized how subjective ballet is and the fact that even though my college professors may think these are better, stronger, whatever,
00:11:09
Speaker
more capable of these roles dancers. It didn't mean anything in terms of higher ability. So after the whole audition process, I ended up at Louisville Ballet. I was lucky because I had friends there from Butler who had graduated before me. And so they gave me some good guidance. There was a level of comfortability very quickly. One of them, the ballet master, would confuse me and a girl named Jennifer and he would call me Jennifer and he would call her Jessica. It was like very annoying. And so my friend from Butler said to him, just call her spinner or spin. And so he started calling me spin and it was good because it was like a good distinction and I have my own personality and you know, it was good that she was comfortable enough to say that to him and create that for me. And Louisville was hard for me because like I said, I had this ongoing cloud and struggle and
00:12:05
Speaker
So much of my focus was on my body and not on my technical and artistic growth, though I did grow hugely while I was there. After Louisville, being from New York, I knew I wanted to be back towards the East Coast. I didn't have a contract when I was leaving. And so I was like, what is next? And a friend of mine who had been a pharmacy major was moving to Boston for an internship. And I had always loved Boston after I went to the Boston Ballet Summer Dance Program one year.
00:12:33
Speaker
And I was like, wow, I would love to live there. There was this smaller company that I had my eyes on and I was kind of like, well, if I go and stalk them, basically, if I'm like in the open class every day and showing up and getting to know people, maybe that would be an option for me to get a contract there. And so I just kind of moved to Boston and started the freelance thing, which is a whole other animal.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah,
Freelancing in Dance
00:12:59
Speaker
talk about that. What was your experience doing freelance versus being in a company setting? In a lot of ways, I really needed the freedom. at that point because the college dance program like Butler is so intense with academics and dance classes. Like dance majors are so busy that it was four very busy years. And then my time in Louisville, you're on this nine to five schedule and I worked a second job as well. So it was just very busy and a lot of dancing.
00:13:31
Speaker
And then in Boston, I worked too much for sure. I was definitely still working too much, but I did enjoy feeling a bit more free in my schedule and what I said yes to and all of that. So it was interesting that it kind of created some balance for me.
00:13:50
Speaker
and I know a lot of dancers feel so safe in the company setting because everything is laid out for you, but I feel like there is a very nice level of freedom and growth that you can find when you are more in charge of your life.
00:14:05
Speaker
yeah That's a good way to put it. What led you to found the whole dancer?
Founding The Whole Dancer
00:14:10
Speaker
Well, I stopped dancing in my later 20s. And when I stopped, I had no idea what I was doing next. And I started nannying. And quickly into nannying, I was like, but I'm not gonna last long doing this. but I did actually end up lasting five years with that family. You have a son and a daughter? Yes.
00:14:31
Speaker
Yeah, so I just have a daughter. I nanny two boys. And I was like, oh my god, boys are so intense. When I got pregnant, I was like, it has to be a girl. If it's a boy, I don't know what I'm gonna do. When they told me it was a girl, I was like, I cried in tears of joy. I mean, boys are wonderful, you know, it's a balance. But two boys, I was just like, I'm not gonna be able to do this for long.
00:14:52
Speaker
So I started looking for what was next. It didn't always stem from the healthiest place, but I always had an interest in health and nutrition, sports nutrition and how we should be fueling our bodies as dancers. And so I had been hearing about this health coaching certification through the Institute for Integrative Nutrition and I just kind of like pulled the trigger and put it on a credit card and did it. And when I did that, I started getting all these ideas really about how I could help people. And I had no interest or intention in working with dancers at that point.
00:15:30
Speaker
Mostly because I was like, I'm done with that world. I don't know if I can handle being back in it. It was very unhealthy for me. I wasn't sure if it was going to be a good move. And then I had a first coaching call with a business coach. And in our conversation, she was like, well, it sounds like you should be working with dancers. And I was like,
00:15:52
Speaker
Maybe. So God, I don't know. But then I did all of this market research and I reached out to all my former friends and colleagues and and had them send it to friends at other companies. And I thought very clearly that there was a need for something and dancers needed support and all the things that I was like.
00:16:11
Speaker
Stuff must've changed by now. I mean, not that it had been very long, but it had been a few years. I was like, things have to have gotten better. I'm sure people are fine. and And I also had that thought that, you know, I must be unique in that I struggled in ways. It was hard for me because maybe I just wasn't good enough or it was my body or whatever.
00:16:30
Speaker
And other people probably were just doing fine. Everyone else looked like they were doing fine. And you know, it felt like everyone else was skinnier than me and whatever. So I was like, I'm sure everyone's fine. But then like I said, I did market research, and it was very clear that people were not fine. And out of all of my responses, and I had over 50 responses, there were like one or two people who were like, I'm fine, basically. And you know, one of them I remember,
00:16:54
Speaker
she had a mother who was a dancer. So she definitely had some of that guidance or, you know, support like from someone who really understood what she was dealing with. I was like, okay, something is needed. And then I just kind of dove into things. I know you talked about this, ah kind of alluded to it through this whole conversation. But I'd love to talk more about body image because It's just like you said, it permeates everything.
Body Image and Dance Potential
00:17:22
Speaker
I don't know a single dancer who has not had at some point in their career, some kind of struggle with body image. And I know you talked about your struggles with it, but can you elaborate on that more, like how that affected you as a dancer? Yeah, the big picture is I don't think I was able to actually reach my full potential as a dancer because of how
00:17:47
Speaker
focused I was on my body and what I perceived to be wrong with it. I just think I was constantly distracted by it. And I talk with dancers about this stuff all the time, right? And it's like, you are either in class judging what you're seeing in the mirror, not even judging your technique as much, but you're just judging how your body looks or the size of it.
00:18:10
Speaker
or you're obsessing over what you're going to eat next, what you've already eaten. That was my main thought process. That was the main focus of my thinking. And so yeah, I would get corrections. I would try to apply corrections, but I was never fully there. Like you can't be fully there if you're so concerned with what they must be thinking about how big your legs are.
00:18:34
Speaker
And so I think it really just took away from my ability to reach my fullest potential. And it took away from my ability to enjoy what I was doing, which, look, if you go into dance.
00:18:46
Speaker
you should be loving it and enjoying it, right? And it should be fulfilling because you get to do this thing. You know, I love it when non-dancers would be like, wait, you just dance around all day. Like it's not that, right? Like certainly it's hard work, but you're living as an artist and like you should be enjoying that. And I wasn't able to fully enjoy it. I had moments of course.
00:19:11
Speaker
I would say on stage, right? You would have those moments where maybe you would actually forget about all these other stuff because you were so focused in what you were doing. And I'm sure in some rehearsals, I would be so in it while I was dancing that obviously I'm not thinking about food in my body. But in a lot of the other moments, it was just pervasive and constantly coming up and constantly detracting from my ability to be present and enjoy what I was doing. And you said you felt kind of alone in this. Like, did you ever talk to your friends, your peers about these thoughts you're having? Or did you really feel like I'm the only one who's thinking this? Not in high school, but once I was at college and, you know, so spending so much time with my
00:19:59
Speaker
dance major friends in and out of the studio and then in company spending a lot of time with those friends. In each place, I would have a friend who was very much on the same page as me and you know we would talk about what was wrong with our bodies together and we would talk about what we were trying from a dieting perspective to try and be thinner. I didn't feel fully alone in those moments, but It was certainly still, I think, isolating at times because I was one of those people who would sometimes avoid social settings because I was like, oh God, like people are going to be eating and I don't want to be eating and you know, all of that. These friends who I would connect with on the subject, we never really were helpful or encouraging towards each other in validating like
00:20:52
Speaker
No, you're fine. We would just kind of speak about our individual feelings about ourselves and struggles. And like I said, help each other. And I'm putting that in air quotes, help each other by talking about dieting and what we were cutting out from our food choices, you know, that week or month or whatever. Did any of your friends in college who were not the dance major, or did you ever talk to them and were they ever like,
00:21:17
Speaker
That's not normal. Dance is such an insular world and we're all going through this and we think it's just really normal. And then outside of it, people are like, wait, what? Yeah, no, I kind of wish I had part of it was I observed some disordered things among my non-dance friends as well. You know, unfortunately.
00:21:36
Speaker
It's not only us as dancers who are struggling with this stuff. And so like I would observe things in them. They would not be talking about what they were thinking or feeling when they were making certain food choices or or what have you. I think to avoid ever being like accused of having an eating disorder, I would kind of put on a show when I was around, even like my mom in high school, you know like I would always eat a normal dinner.
00:22:02
Speaker
It was breakfast and lunch when she wasn't really watching me that I was eating very little, but then I would kind of eat normally at dinner time because she was around. And so in college, I would, around my non-dance friends, try to eat as normally as possible. Sometimes it was very low calorie and I'm sure they were like, that's not a lot of food, but nobody ever called me out on it. And then it would be very secretive as well.
00:22:27
Speaker
And so, you know, sometimes I was going through things that I just was trying to hide, but I'm sure it wasn't actually that well hidden. People always say, Oh, you're a dancer, you must be so healthy, you must always be healthy. So like, if you're a non dancer, and you see your friends, making what you perceive to be like the healthy choice, you're like, well, that's because they're a dancer. So that's normal for them. Exactly.
00:22:53
Speaker
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00:23:23
Speaker
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00:23:40
Speaker
Tap the link in the show notes to learn more and be sure to mention that the brainy ballerina referred you. How did you work through this? Like, did you have a coach that helped you or how did you start to realize that this was affecting your quality of life and you wanted to do something about it. I definitely recognize that it was a problem years before I was able to make any changes.
00:24:03
Speaker
I think is true for a lot of dancers where they might be like something's off here. And you know, my eating patterns got into the space of being restrictive and then overeating. So it was like very back and forth in that way. And I think one of the things that was most telling to me, or I felt the most shame about it, but also I was like, wow, something has to give here is I was working at a yoga studio at one point. It was all vegan and I was vegan at the time.
00:24:33
Speaker
And they would have like vegan muffins and cookies and things like that around. And over the course of a shift, I would sometimes eat so much of those things. that I was physically sick. I didn't actually get sick. I'm very lucky, actually, that I don't have a good gag reflex, because I'm sure I would have gone down that road. But I was like, what am I doing? How am I at work and eating all of these muffins that we're supposed to be selling? you know And I felt so much shame about it. And I think that it was part of where I was like, I really have to figure something out to change what I'm doing.
00:25:12
Speaker
And around that same time working there, I started taking a lot of yoga, which really helped start the thought process of valuing my body and sort of honoring it and acknowledging and being grateful for what it allows me to do, because that was a lot of the yoga speak I was hearing. And it was physical movement in rooms without mirrors, so you could actually stop thinking about what you looked like and start focusing on how it felt for you and, you know, maybe what your body was telling you. So that was a big start for me. And then going through the health coaching program myself was quite eye opening. And around that time too, they were like, if you are really going to pursue health coaching as a career path, it's a good idea to work with a health coach so you know what the experience is like. And so I did start working with someone around that time as well.
00:26:08
Speaker
And, you know, it was like all of those things combined, plus the fact that I was done dancing and was not spending so many hours in front of a mirror. And I always say, I do think now that I know what I know, that it's possible to heal while you're still in the dance world. I do think it's harder because you're just surrounded by it all the time. And so it takes.
00:26:30
Speaker
some additional level of strength and determination and support perhaps, but being out of it was very helpful to me and starting to focus on different things and look at my body with gratitude for what it was allowing me to do. I think that's very interesting. and Even when you said earlier, like,
00:26:47
Speaker
maybe you'd be on stage and you'd be able to let go of it. And that came to mind immediately. It's like, there's no mirrors on stage. So you're just feeling it. You're in the moment. It's like a whole different feeling than as soon as you get into the studio, you see yourself again. It's like all those thoughts come rushing back. here Exactly. So if you have a dancer that comes to you and they're struggling with body image, what are some of the first steps that you take or that they should take?
00:27:13
Speaker
I do think it's helpful to know where it kind of came from or when it sort of started for them. And dancers, you have so many varied stories about parents making comments or parents expressing concern because they look around and they notice my child's body.
00:27:35
Speaker
maybe looks different than their peers, or teachers saying things, or even just for themselves, like, oh, the more I've been on Instagram, I see these professional dancers and they look a certain way, and so I feel like I'm supposed to look that way. And I think that once you can kind of say, this is a big part of where it originated, and then I do this thing called rewriting your body story, where you take all of these just like journal prompts, right? But you do all of this writing,
00:28:04
Speaker
to uncover where it came from and then to decide what you would like your experience of your body and dance to be. It's helpful and empowering to feel like you get to write your own story and you don't have to fit yourself into some box that people have tried to fit you into. Realistically, right? Some of that might look like exploring different paths in dance because you want to prioritize your health over anything else.
00:28:32
Speaker
But, you know, like I said, I do think dancers find that process very, very empowering. Can you give an example of like how someone someone might rewrite a story that they have? If my body story has been my legs are too big and that makes me not look like a ballet dancer.
00:28:51
Speaker
to instead say, my legs are one of my biggest assets because they give me so much power and strength. And when I use them, I'm able to jump higher and hold my extensions longer and It's a reframing aspect, but then also you can take it deeper and say, along the line of my career, if people give me feedback on my legs, I can come back to the power that I know exists in them. So like the process of rewriting is to kind of go down the list of things, both that perhaps have been said to you or that you are now saying to yourself and to reframe them in a way that's actually supportive and beneficial and also true.
00:29:34
Speaker
You know, none of it can be pretend or things you don't believe because you don't believe it. It's not going to get you anywhere. And that's one of the issues with think positively or, you know, just say nice things to yourself. It's like, well, if you're not in the mind space or headspace that you believe those things, saying them is not necessarily going to do anything, at least not right away. Start with things that you actually believe, and then you can start to expand on that and take it a bit deeper and further.
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's really powerful too, because like you said, when someone comes to you and says something, now you have these tools because you're not negating the reality that like, there's a lot about the dance world that still has not changed.
Puberty and Body Expectations
00:30:17
Speaker
And we both know from the conversations that we have and people we talk to, like, this is still happening a lot. Hopefully, as generations go and the dancers that we talk to have learned new skills, things will start to evolve, but it's slow. It's so slow. So being able to have that skill even in the face of whatever is happening is really powerful, I think. And for so many dancers, sometimes it's younger, but a lot of the time it originates through puberty. And I do think it's helpful to even just be able to look back at your younger self and say, look, her body was changing because it was supposed to.
00:30:56
Speaker
and she was gaining weight during that time because she was supposed to. There's nothing wrong or bad about what was happening. What was wrong or bad is that there were adults around who should have known what was going on, who decided to tell you Something's wrong with you because you don't look like you did when you were 12. You're not a string bean anymore. It's like, yeah, well, there's a lot of kids who have, again, quote unquote, the ideal ballet body until they go through puberty and start to develop into grown up women.
00:31:30
Speaker
you know, and it's like, that's such a disaster that people are creating for young minds. We have to now have the knowledge and perspective to see, yeah, if someone's a ah lanky string bean, that's not going to stay that way forever. Don't get attached to it as an adult, thinking that that's exactly what that person is going to be until they're in their 20s, because that's really not realistic. Yeah, and punishing kids for something that happens naturally in your body. Like it's just right crazy. When you say it so plainly like that, it's like, yeah, what are we doing? It shocks me.
Teaching and Growth Awareness
00:32:09
Speaker
I know. Both of our stories like hearing this when we're 14. It's like, that's puberty. thought That's what was happening. Yeah, it makes me feel like dance teachers and studio owners just need like a class on growth and development. They need to be reminded for sure.
00:32:25
Speaker
Get ready because if you look at a 12 year old or an 11 year old and they have this long lanky body, it's not going to stay that way. It shouldn't. It's not healthy for it to go unchanged for the next five to 10 years. So mentally prepare yourselves. All your students' bodies are going to change. So don't get attached to it. Yeah. I hear you talk a lot about body image resilience. Can you talk about that and how you can cultivate that as a dancer?
00:32:54
Speaker
It's the idea that most of us will continue to sometimes have bad body image days or days where we look in the mirror and don't like what we see or we're more self-critical. And I'll throw out here as a tip.
00:33:10
Speaker
If you track your period in an app, odds are you'll notice there may be some consistency in the timing of your biggest body image struggle days. Cause I always say like I consider myself pretty healed, but before my period, I'll have some days where I might look in the mirror and be like, I don't love that. Or I'll, I'll fixate on my thighs a little bit for a minute. And it's very common for it to kind of have an upswing during those days.
00:33:38
Speaker
But you know the resilient part comes in where for me now, especially and for dancers who I work with who get to this point, I might look in the mirror and have those thoughts, but I'm able to just move on with my life. And now I'm usually like, okay, this is a hormonal thing that's messing with my brain right now. And so I'll just be like,
00:33:57
Speaker
my legs are fine, and I move on with my life. And that's where the resilience is, right? It's again, it's not like anything false where you look in the mirror 365 days a year and you're like, wow, my body's perfect, or it's exactly what it should be or exactly what it needs to be for ballet. But you might look in the mirror and have hard days, but you can always come back to not letting it affect you as much or just moving on with things and saying like, okay, yeah, I'm not feeling great about this part of myself right now. But I can still love myself and I can still move forward in my day and my life. How do you help dancers cope with the realities of the ballet world and the world that they're in? I know you said it is easier to move on and find body image resilience and all of these things when you're not in the ballet world.
00:34:46
Speaker
but obviously like dancers don't want to have to leave. You know, we love to dance. it It's like, how can you do both? Part of the journey or struggle perhaps even is trying on different companies. And like you work with dance audition. So you know, this is not necessarily the easiest of suggestions.
00:35:06
Speaker
But if you're in a company where you're constantly being told this is wrong with your body, I don't love this about you, your casting is being affected and they're being clear, like, I didn't feel like I could cast you in this ballet because of the tutu or whatever, the unitard, who knows, right? Whatever it is. If you're constantly experiencing that, I think a lot of the dancer mindset is, well, I have to figure out a way to fit into this box that they want me to fit into.
00:35:32
Speaker
They think that this is too big. I have to figure out a diet or a cross training plan that's going to help my legs look longer or leaner or whatever. And I think that the real path should be to ask yourself, do I feel good about how I'm feeling myself now?
00:35:48
Speaker
Do I feel like I'm at my healthiest? What do I think or feel about my dancing separate from what they're telling me about my body being wrong? And if you feel good in your dancing and you feel like you're eating well and your food relationship is in a good place.
00:36:04
Speaker
You got to start looking elsewhere. I recognize that this is not the easiest suggestion because it's not easy to get a job in the dance world. But I've worked with dancers who are in that position and sometimes at very high level companies. And when they actually put feelers out, started to audition elsewhere, they were able to get other jobs where their bodies were not viewed as an issue. And I think that sometimes it is just a matter of trying to find a place that values you as you are at your healthiest.
00:36:34
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Does the mere thought of a audition season make your palms start to sweat? Do you feel completely overwhelmed with getting everything together on top of your regular dancing schedule? I've been there and I totally get it. As dancers, we spend hundreds of hours honing our technique and artistry. But when it comes to figuring out how to put together a resume or what to expect in a professional audition, we're often left to figure it out ourselves. That's why I put together the ultimate audition guide.
00:37:04
Speaker
This is your one-stop shop for everything you need to tackle professional company auditions with ease. No more spending hours Googling and trying to piece together a somewhat coherent audition package. With this guide, you'll be ready to conquer audition season like a true professional.
00:37:20
Speaker
We're talking resumes, head shots, dance photos, dance reels, plus info on how to find auditions, what to wear, what to expect, how to budget, mindset tips, you name it, it is in this guide. You are ready for this moment. Head to the show notes, grab your copy of the Ultimate Audition Guide and empower yourself with the knowledge to approach audition season like a true professional. What changes would you like to see in the dance industry?
00:37:50
Speaker
ah
00:37:52
Speaker
We need another episode. Oh, God. Yeah, how much time do we have? I think that my biggest issue really is when children are involved.
00:38:03
Speaker
and training environments are doing these things. I don't think it's okay at any level or at any age, but there is something to be said for when someone is an adult and has made the choice to be in this career. And then they're faced with this stuff. Like I said, I don't think it's okay.
00:38:23
Speaker
But I think that there are ways to have adult conversations that, again, might result in you being like, clearly this is not the right fit for me because if you keep having this issue with my body, then I have to find somewhere else to be. But with kids, no child in a dance training environment should be told anything about their bodies ever. It's just not helpful. And it never does any good. It only causes damage. If you have a student who you think could benefit from some support, to find more balance in their fuel plan, to eat more healthfully, whatever.
00:39:01
Speaker
It's not your job to say to that student, I see something wrong with you, so I want you to go and talk to this nutritionist. It's your job to say to all of your students, hey, if anyone is looking for support, here's a list of resources and people who you can reach out to, and they're gonna help you do X, Y, and Z. They're gonna help you feel more confident in your body. They're gonna help you feel more confident in your dancing. They're gonna help you find a fuel plan of supportive and healthy and working for you, not against you. People in schools and training environments, teachers, they need to get their heads on straight and they need to educate themselves about who's out there to help their students. And they need to recognize that they shouldn't be saying damaging things because it's not going to help anyone go pro and stay pro. It's only going to cause damage.
00:39:54
Speaker
And you know, that goes for things like, don't use your quads so much, they're getting bulky or something like that. You know, like educating themselves on even the dance science that says, these are the muscles we have to use in order to do this step. So how can I encourage my students to use their muscles well, rather than getting in my head about the fact that different bodies look different ways when they're using different muscles, learn how to speak to children in ways that are productive.
00:40:24
Speaker
and not damaging. I mean it's so tricky because the dance education field, it's not codified. I mean there are curriculums you can get certified in, there's things you can do, but anyone can open a dance studio and start teaching kids. You don't have to know anything about childhood development, body image, dance science, like all the things you listed. It's so hard to know if you're finding a person who's going to be a positive role model for your child's life. And I really do think that teachers meanwhile, like I don't think that most people are going out there maliciously and being like, I'm going to see how many young kids I can scar. But if you don't educate yourself on those things, then chances are you might inadvertently be doing harm.
00:41:04
Speaker
The issue is that many of them teachers have convinced themselves that they know what it takes to go pro and they know it's necessary from a physical perspective. And so if they didn't say something, they would be doing a disservice to their students.
00:41:23
Speaker
And like I said, present them with resources if you think they could be fueling themselves better or in ways that are more supportive to their dancing. But to take that on yourself and say, oh, I have to encourage them to lose weight by things like that I hear about like telling them to stop eating carbs. You know, like these are things that teachers think to kids. Oh, you should really cut back on carbs. Just not just bad advice.
00:41:51
Speaker
Does your daughter dance? Right now, she does, yeah. I'm always curious, you know, as someone with kids, yeah, they have been in and out of dance class. And I think we're in a really amazing environment. so I love their teachers, like, it's been so, so wonderful. And so I love where we're at. But I also am always like, just worried because you know, we know too much about the industry at large. And I'm always like,
00:42:15
Speaker
How would I feel about it if they wanted to pursue this professionally? I'm trying to stay present and not think so far about pursuing a professional. That's probably a good idea. but Right? But for now, I'm very unattached to her dancing. Like, if any day she came back and was like, I really don't like going to dance class, I don't want to go anymore, I would say, fine, we can do something else. Like, let's go play a sport or something like that. Right now she's enjoying it.
00:42:44
Speaker
One thing that's kind of funny is at the school where she goes, it's one of the schools where I teach next year, she would be able to be in the nutcracker. And in previous years, like the last couple of years, she's actually been afraid of nutcrackers. I mean, if you look at it, they're pretty creepy looking, right? They're not cute. So she's afraid. She's been afraid of a nutcracker. And I feel like this year, she's not so afraid of a nutcracker, but people have asked her are you going to be in the nutcracker next year? And she's like, no. And she has said to me, do I have to do that? And I'm like, no, if you don't want to be in the nutcracker, you don't have to be in the nutcracker. So that's kind of funny. And I guess it could change. But you know, right now, it's like she's just doing it for fun. And she's enjoying it. And I don't even know he's five. So once things start getting
00:43:32
Speaker
to the bar and first position and then actually doing kind of serious stuff, she might have no interest. And yeah like I said, I'm umm definitely okay with that. Yeah, that's funny you said that with Nutcracker, because my daughter, we were in Menards a few weeks ago, and she's one, but she saw a Nutcracker, like a big one, and she just laid on the floor and started crying.
Children's Perceptions in Dance
00:43:52
Speaker
Like, she was damn high, and you're so right, they are as scary. They're creepy. But it's been tricky, because like, we walked into Bed Bath and Beyond one time around the holidays, and they had this whole row of Nutcrackers, and she was like, crying and clinging to me and wanted to leave the store, you know, like, it's like a serious fear.
00:44:10
Speaker
Maybe she was like a pro dancer in a past life and she has this like big dislike of it. Oh my gosh. Past trauma. Maybe. It's possible.
00:44:21
Speaker
Oh, okay. This has been really, really helpful. I think for any dancer, everyone out there, because we've all been through this and I think it's so key to know that you're not alone in this feeling. If you're having body image issues to know that you're not the only one having that. And I think the more we talk about it, the more people realize that the more it becomes open. And I don't want to normalize it in the sense that I'm saying like, Oh, it's normal. It's okay. We should all.
00:44:48
Speaker
feel this way, but normalize in the sense that like other people are going through it too and it doesn't have to be like this actually. I do think a lot of people go through it and see it as some sort of personal failing or flaw. It is important to normalize it in that it's not just you it's very much the world that you're in and the pressures that we face things that are said and things that go unsaid too a lot of dancers hear things from a teacher or parent or something like that but there are plenty of dancers who are just on instagram and start to see things and they say to themselves well this is what all the pro dancers who i follow look like if my body doesn't look like them something must be wrong with me
00:45:36
Speaker
So a lot of it is to try to work to just own and love who you are and yourself and your body and your uniqueness and not get caught up in constantly comparing.
Social Media and Self-Image
00:45:50
Speaker
I've said this before, but I am so glad that social media did not exist in the way that it does now when I was a young dancer. And it's really hard because I know both of us, our businesses, our online businesses, like we have to use social media really heavily to reach the people that need our help. like that's
00:46:09
Speaker
a part of it, but it is a constant struggle for me because I do see also so much harm with social media. Every other day I'm like, I'm getting off of it. And then the next day I'm like, but I can't. And I want to be like a good presence. If all the people that who think like that were to leave social media, then what are you left with to remember for dancers that like you are seeing a tiny snapshot of someone, they might've done that pirouette 52 times to get the right one for social media. Like you're not seeing all the mess ups, the bad days. So if you're comparing your life to someone based on that, you're going to start to feel bad. And if you notice that you're feeling bad, when you look at social media, that's a very clear sign to put the phone away. Yeah, absolutely. There definitely needs to be more self imposed and also parentally imposed parameters around how much people are taking in.
00:47:00
Speaker
Because, you know, as adults, we can recognize, oh gosh, I'm spending too much time on this thing. Let me put it away for the rest of the day. But I think sometimes young people get social media FOMO and they feel like they're missing out if they're not checking things.
00:47:15
Speaker
I'll say too, like some of the best things I've heard about people who follow me on Instagram are when they'll say, like sometimes I'm scrolling and it feels so negative to me because I'm comparing myself and whatever, and then I'll come across one of your posts and like it will make me feel better. yeah Like you said, being a positive presence on it is really important as well. It's not going away, I guess. el least yeah Okay, last question. What advice would you give to aspiring dancers who are pursuing
Staying True to Personal Dance Reasons
00:47:43
Speaker
a career? Make sure you stay connected to why you're doing it and who you're doing it for.
00:47:50
Speaker
Because even in training years, dancers start to be really concerned with the people at the front of the room and getting approval from their teachers and the teachers giving them positive affirmation and validation. It should be about you and why you're doing it for yourself. It starts oftentimes in training years, but then when you become a trainee or a second company or apprentice, like It's more and more just about the people in the front and trying to please them because obviously we want to get to the next steps in the career. If you find that that's taking over your mind, you've got to take a step back and just say, okay, why do I dance? Why do I love to dance? Why did I start pursuing this in the first place? Why did I keep going?
00:48:39
Speaker
what do I really want to get from it for myself? Because that's where the joy comes from. We don't get joy, at least not long lasting, even when the director says good job. It's so short lived because a lot of them flip flop from one day to the next. So you'll have a day where you're like, Oh, this is awesome. I feel great. And then the next day they decide to be all up in your business and tell you you're not doing anything right. So it has to be from inside that you find that validation. And that's a constant practice. And it's a constant pursuit to say, why am I doing this? What am I loving about it? How do I feel about my own performance and dancing and all of that? And that's why I ask everyone when I start the conversation, like, why did you take your first dance class? Because I just love hearing those stories about why you did it when you were young. And it was because it was fun and you liked dancing. And people can remember that feeling.
00:49:36
Speaker
Obviously, when it becomes your career, it's different. You have to approach it a little bit differently because it is a job, but it can still have that same joy and fun that you had when you started. You don't have to lose that and become so serious about it that it just saps all of the happiness away. Yeah, exactly. Okay, Jess. So if anyone listening has really resonated with you, and they want to reach out to you, can you talk more about exactly what you do? Because I feel like I didn't really ask you this question and how people can reach you. I offer a couple of different paths in coaching. And sometimes people are confused about which path would actually be best for them. And I always say just kind of reach out and we'll determine. But there's also quite a bit of overlap. So you know, it's not only
00:50:19
Speaker
helping you find a balanced relationship to food and your body. But for some dancers, it's just about finding a balanced approach to the career itself and actually creating a life that supports you to feel you're happiest and to do your best dancing. And so if any of that connects with you, if you've been feeling less connected to what you're doing or you've been struggling to feel happy in it,
00:50:41
Speaker
The work that I do is about helping you reconnect to the joy and what's important to you as a dancer and what you want to achieve and why and all of that. We would work together through coaching for six months to start which I always say is like that's kind of baseline to get most dancers to a place where they're feeling better in their experiences. The best way to pursue that is just to reach out and we'll have an initial consultation at no cost where we talk and see what you need and If I'm not the right fit, I refer people out to some of the other amazing coaches and practitioners who I know. And how can we find you? What's your website and your social media? So it's all the whole dancer. The website is the whole dancer.com. Instagram is at the whole dancer podcast. Pretty consistent across the board. Amazing. Thank you so much. This was really, really good. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. This was awesome.
00:51:38
Speaker
Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode. And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your ratings help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Valorina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.