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Voice of the Mountains: To See the Moment with Greg Penner
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In this episode, host Steve sits down with Greg Penner, chairman of Walmart and CEO of the Denver Broncos, to explore the intersections of adventure, leadership, and risk. Greg recounts his 2018 Everest expedition, where his team faced oxygen regulator failures at 28,000 feet and had to make life or death decisions on the mountain. Drawing parallels between mountaineering and business, he reflects on decision making under pressure, finding the right partners, and learning when to push forward or when it is best to step back. The conversation dives into legacy, privilege, and giving back, from Walmart’s investments in its workforce to the Broncos’ community programs. Greg shares how the love of the process has shaped his approach to leadership and adventure.
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Transcript
The Role of Preparation in Athletic Performance
00:00:00
Speaker
Something I tell my athletes is that you don't rise to the occasion. You fall to the level of your preparation. It's about reps. Reps done in the dark.
00:00:12
Speaker
Reps done when you don't feel like doing it. Reps when you're just unsure if any of it matters and maybe you're not that motivated. What happens if someone takes that same work ethic that we apply to training for mountain sports and applies it to this world of high stakes leadership?
00:00:32
Speaker
Our guest
Introduction to Greg Penner
00:00:33
Speaker
today is Greg Penner, the chairman of the board of Walmart, one of the largest and most complex corporations in the world. He's also the CEO of of the Denver Broncos, and he's an uphill athlete.
00:00:48
Speaker
Greg has raised triathlons. He's climbed Mount Everest. He's been turned back from the summit of Denali. And he's someone I've shared miles with on skis and snow and climbing ice.
00:01:01
Speaker
Most of us will never sit where Greg sits, but that's exactly why I wanted to talk to him. When someone is able to navigate risk and pressure and performance at that level and has shaped themselves in the world of endurance sport, we have to ask, what are they carrying back from their training and racing and climbing?
00:01:23
Speaker
that helps them in those situations? What did they know that we can learn from? Greg is balancing culture, legacy, and change on a global scale.
00:01:36
Speaker
And
Learning from Mistakes and Consistency in Teamwork
00:01:37
Speaker
he's doing it with the same mindset that we talk about at Uphill Athlete every day. Staying consistent, getting the right people on the rope, learning from our mistakes, and making every action count.
00:01:48
Speaker
In this episode of Voice of the Mountains, Greg and I are going to explore training, racing, and climbing, and how they have shaped Greg's decision-making processes. I
Leadership in High-Stakes Environments
00:01:59
Speaker
am going to ask him what it's like to lead when the stakes are very, very, very high, and why do the small choices that we make along the way, the reps done, become so important?
00:02:13
Speaker
Whether you're running a company or training for your next summit, or just trying to live with purpose in your own life, the mountains are always asking the same questions.
00:02:24
Speaker
Have you done the reps? Have you done the preparation? So let's get started.
00:02:39
Speaker
If you're enjoying the show and want to take the next step in your training, join our newsletter and receive a free four-week sample training plan.
Uphill Athlete Training Plans Promotion
00:02:47
Speaker
Head on over to UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go, and once you sign up, you'll instantly get a link to try out some of our most popular training plans.
00:02:56
Speaker
It's a great way to get a feel for how we train our athletes for big mountain goals. Check it out at UphillAthlete.com slash Let's Go. That's UphillAthlete.com slash L-E-T-S-G-O.
00:03:13
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast, Greg. It's so great to see you and to have you here. Thanks, Steve. great to Great to be on and have a chance to visit with you. Yeah, it's been a minute since I last saw you. I believe the last time we saw each other was ski touring Aspen, skidding up.
00:03:29
Speaker
Yep. I think it was Highlands up to the bull. up to the bowl. That's right. It was a ah beautiful, clear, cold morning. i love that morning. yeah It was really nice. And what we are joined by ah a friend of yours and and someone who I know just sort of more because he's a legend ah than anything.
00:03:48
Speaker
You want to introduce our mutual friend a little bit? Yeah, thatd be that'd be Neil Beidelman. of He was actually on the 1996 Everest climb. and And I got to know Neil oh probably 15 years ago now, just through a mutual friend, started skiing together, ah biking together, and then eventually ended up doing a lot of climbing together. And and we've had had a lot of fun, lot of lot of big adventures.
00:04:16
Speaker
Neil is just a great guy and one of the absolute kind of original legends of the mountain space, especially in Colorado. You know, he was running hard rock back before ultra running was even a thing. And of course, climbing and guiding on Everest at the dawn of of that era ah has so many great stories.
00:04:35
Speaker
And he's a he is a genuine rocket scientist, right? Like he's He is. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's got uh, uh, booming, business now and spending a lot of time in Boulder with that and, and, um, but still, still tiny finding time to ski and, and bike and, and all that. So yeah, we still have a lot of fun in Aspen.
00:04:55
Speaker
Just a great guy. So I want to segue to
Everest Climb Decision-Making Story
00:05:01
Speaker
2018. And along with, I believe, Neil and some other friends, you were on Everest. You were climbing Mount Everest from the north side, from the Chinese side. And you and you your whole team faced a critical moment up quite high when almost all of your oxygen regulators on your team, including yours, sort of spontaneously failed.
00:05:24
Speaker
And when I think about this and when I heard about this originally, which was almost in real time, you know, turning back would have been a very logical choice. any Anyone would have been like, yeah, OK, the regulators all failed. Of course they went down. That's a perfect reason to to turn around from high on Everest. But you guys pause and regroup and you found a different way forward. Can you briefly tell that story for our listeners?
00:05:50
Speaker
Yeah, so i not all of the regulators failed, but basically about half of the active regulators failed, and then we had gone through our our backup. So um we were at about 28,200 feet, so we could we could see the summit. The sun was coming up. um Everything had been going great up to that point.
00:06:12
Speaker
Um, so then we had to huddle and decide, do we, do we make a push for the summit at that point, knowing we had no backups? Um, and, you know, it was, it was, and it's hard is, you know, at that kind of elevation with ox, you know, ah oxygen masks on and everything to actually have a decent, you know, uh, uh, conversation, but, uh, but we made the decision to actually,
00:06:35
Speaker
um, uh, abort and go down. And so, um, and then once we decided to go down, we wanted to move down quickly given we didn't have backup oxygen. So, uh, we quickly made our way back down to camp to kind of regroup there and then went all the way back to advanced base camp.
00:06:53
Speaker
Um, yeah And then had you know had had made the decision then that we were done. you know We had used, we had obviously staged oxygen and other supplies for the climb. We had used those on the on the first summit attempt. um And so we had made the decision we were we were not going to try again, um went to sleep thinking that was our decision. And when we woke up the next morning, we kind of sitting around breakfast and think it was Jim maybe said, ah, is, are we sure there's no way we, you know, we couldn't do this again, give it another try. And, and we just kind of started brainstorming and, uh, came up with some other, an Indian team had had, had to, uh, abort their climb and they'd left a bunch of oxygen canisters up, up high. And, and, um,
00:07:41
Speaker
So we just kind of regrouped and said, you know what, we're we're we fully acclimated. let's ah Let's see if we can, you know in about 36 hours, if the weather still good, let's let's give it a hard push. and um And we did that climb. Then the next time, ah you know we skipped the first camp, just spent half a night at the second camp and summited from there. So was it you know was a different protocol. and end up working out.
00:08:06
Speaker
and So, you know, you sit in some very interesting worlds and have some very interesting perspectives where you're either the CEO or on boards of some of the world's largest companies and you're out
Parallels Between Business and Mountaineering
00:08:19
Speaker
there doing these things like so going ski touring and climbing Everest.
00:08:23
Speaker
When you think about that experience, are there ah there other times in your business life or in your personal life, perhaps, where this experience you have in the mountains with risk and with working through problems in the way that you just described has has come to play? has And could you tell us a ah similar story and from that other part of another part of your life in that way?
00:08:51
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. um mean, I'd say it's actually it actually goes both ways. So I would, you know in processing a ah decision like that and and thinking about it, it's a lot of the same um skills and learned practices that you have in business when you're facing a big decision. and usually those big decisions would be things around you know a big acquisition or ah a significant hire or firing that you're needing to make or how you approach a strategic partnership, where you have a lot of options.
00:09:25
Speaker
Sometimes those are made and like in in situations like this where you have a very short, acute period of time to make a decision. Sometimes it's it's longer duration. But I find a lot of those a lot of the skills are the same, which is, you know for me, making those types of decisions, whether it's in business or on the mountain, it's trying to, you wanna elicit different voices and different opinions that that span a range of maybe the most risk averse to the most ah risk tolerant in the case in the mountains. and be able to assess, you know, how, how you know, what are what are the things we need to be thinking about? And is this ah is this a tolerable risk? um
00:10:05
Speaker
And just understanding that and whose voices you want to listen to and how you process that, and then, you know, being decisive is, I think, a really valuable skill. And it it translates both in business and and the mountains. Yeah.
00:10:18
Speaker
I think one of the skills I would argue is the ability to recognize that you're in that space to begin with. And is there something like an intuition or is it something you learn from being around other people, doing it, kind of growing up as either a mountaineer or growing up as ah as a business person that you you pick up that sixth sense for knowing when you need to sort of stop and be like, okay, i need to, as you said, assess like what's the –
00:10:52
Speaker
Most risk tolerant, what's the least risk tolerant, what are the voices, what are the what are the inputs, what is the decision that needs to be made? and then, you know, but that but that first step of actually recognizing you're in that place where you need to make a decision like that is sometimes less obvious than it is of the oxygen regulators, you know, blow you know blowing up with a large...
00:11:15
Speaker
like loud pop in the air, right? Like, um that is that something that you found you have to really work on? Or how does that work? Yeah, it's interesting. i don't I don't know that it's something you necessarily um proactively work on, but I think the way you develop that sixth sense is through a lot of different experiences. And i'm always I've been a big believer. I've always had a full-time work schedule.
00:11:41
Speaker
I basically have three different things that I spend time on now between our investment firm, Walmart, and the Denver Broncos. um So that's ah that's always active. But then ah outside of that, I've always had an active you know pursuit, whether it be the mountains or racing and triathlons or you know whatever it might be.
00:11:58
Speaker
And I've just found diverse experiences where you're really pushing yourself to achieve at a high level, whether it's business, sports, the mountains, those things, there's they're complementary because you you you learn and you see patterns and you you know all of them have you know different types of risk, but all of them have risks that you need to manage.
00:12:18
Speaker
um But you you can't be too risk averse or a lot of times you're never going to achieve your objective. And and so I think that sixth sense just comes from comes from that diverse set of experiences, not just in one place, but in in multiple areas and fields.
00:12:36
Speaker
does that as As you go through life, do you find yourself seeing patterns? You're like, oh, I've seen this from that other perspective, from my perspective of being chair of my investment fund CEO of Walmart or CEO of the Denver Broncos, and I'm seeing it from a different angle today, but I've seen this before, but from there. does that do you have those kinds of of sort of real-time realizations? Yeah.
00:13:02
Speaker
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, a good, I'm not sure if it's applicable to the mountain, but a good one in in business is, you know, when you have someone and their their performance isn't up to expectations and you think you can get them there and you give that a little bit of time and you keep letting it go, you think you can get them there. The answer is...
00:13:21
Speaker
yeah you Like at that point, you know, there's some kind of fit there's some kind of a fit that's not right. Either they're not suited for it, it's a role mismatch, ah there's something else going on. um But that's ah that's, you know, with people and people are the most important decision you're gonna make in any of these areas. and and um So that's a, that's a pattern that now i just know, okay, I've seen this before.
00:13:44
Speaker
This isn't going to work better to bite the bullet. Now move on, do it in the right way, you know, respectful and, and clear and, and decisive and, and, and move forward. Well, I think this is actually a topic I wanted to get into with you because I think there is a lot of overlap because you know people, as you say, are are so critical to both business and to being in the mountains, right? We just had a little side chat as we were warming up about like the different people we enjoy, we respectively enjoy being the mountains with.
00:14:19
Speaker
And You know, you've met and climbed and skied with my good friend, Vince Anderson. and yeah know we've met through mutual friends and there's, you know, this famous Jim Collins quote, Jim Collins, of course, being the professor at the Stanford School of Business and the author of the famous book, Good to Great, and also happens to be a really good rock climber.
00:14:40
Speaker
and One of the things that he always talks about, he talks about in Good to Great, is to get the right wrong people off the bus and the right people on the bus. This sort of this very sort of folksy sounding bit of wisdom that is so incredibly right and both the mountains and in in terms of building businesses. And I see climbers and skiers struggle with this all the time.
00:15:04
Speaker
And they'll put it in the in the lens of like, ah yeah, I haven't found the right partner for this. And, you know, I mean, it's the same topic, right? how do you ah How do you think about that in the organizations that you're you're leading? as you As you said, like you just said, people are the most important thing to get right.
00:15:25
Speaker
how do you How do you learn to do that?
00:15:29
Speaker
Hmm. Good question. I mean, I think it's really ah as many reps as you can in different environments and and learning from your mistakes is how you, um and you're still never going to get it right. So, and and you're right, it does apply to the mountains. And, you know, I've got...
00:15:49
Speaker
lots of great friends that do what you know many different activities with. but But some I might not be willing to you know go up high and do a peak like Everest with just because you know it's not the right personality fit or it's a different perspective on risk or how they approach the mountains. um Same thing in business. They're gonna be folks that might be really smart, but their values don't line up with you, or and sussing out what really matters and and how someone can be successful. Because um you know people want to, want to um they want success and in when they're taking things on. So trying to, I always approach interviewing and talking to people with ah more of a partnership, but let's figure out if this is right for both of us. So you should be interviewing me, I'm interviewing you.
00:16:36
Speaker
We're trying to learn you know how how is this gonna be ah a balance and and where you can be really successful in in a role. and and um ah But again, I think the most important thing is just a number of reps and then acknowledging mistakes and and thinking about what you could do different or approach it in a different way go forward.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's a couple of interesting things there I'd love to follow up on. and And one is this idea of you know engaging with a lot of potential business partners or climbing partners or skiing partners and finding that right fit and how much of that is you know I guess it's a little bit different in business because you may have a job position that you're advertising for, or you may send a headhunter out for like, hey, we need this kind of this skill set.
00:17:23
Speaker
um Go find that that person that fits this this description. where But in climbing, for example, it may not be terribly different, right? Like if I think about the partners that I needed at certain times in my climbing career,
00:17:39
Speaker
They, they had a certain skillset, they fit a certain profile. They needed to be probably a certain gender, probably a certain age, probably a certain amount of experience, certain level of fitness, a certain kind of this demeanor.
00:17:53
Speaker
Like there was definitely like I could write a description for these people. But when I think back about how, for example, it came to be the Vince and I climbed together.
00:18:05
Speaker
you know we'd known each other for, I don't know, 10 years before we really started to climb together. And the what changed was that he was attracted to what I was doing and sort of came to me, if that makes sense. like I didn't even realize it at the time. I wasn't like out interviewing for climbing partners.
00:18:27
Speaker
I was just doing my normal thing. And then You know, he came along and he's and we did a little informal climbing and he started sort of struck up a conversation like, hey, what kind of projects are you going? Oh, yeah, I'm kind of. Oh, and then then i' it's sort of dawning on me like, oh, you're interested in those kinds of things, too. Oh, interesting. OK, like and then we sort of, you know, started to build from there. And I think that a lot of people really struggle with finding projects.
00:18:54
Speaker
whether it's training partners, climbing partners, running partners, skiing partners, for all these very variables that you have alluded to. It's risk tolerance. It's it's fitness. its It's, in some cases, like stage of life. Do you have to get home to pick up the kids from school or not? You know, just basic things like that.
00:19:13
Speaker
And so – A lot of times people are sort of sitting passively waiting for this to come. And i think the real trick is do put yourself out there and be like take up the space and like, take, like, this is who I am. This is what I do. This is what I love. This is what I stand for. This is what I care about.
00:19:36
Speaker
And then, and then the people that align with that will kind of gravitate to you and and come. And that's the kind of advice. Is that similar in in, I mean, you're, you're operating these massive organizations, right?
00:19:49
Speaker
whether it's the Broncos or or walmart i mean, these are you know some of the biggest, most important companies in the world. How do you how are you doing that ah as a company? you People you hear talk about like how Elon Musk, for example, is a great magnet for talent. People are attracted to him.
00:20:07
Speaker
and talent kind of comes to him. Is there something that you guys do culturally? Either I can imagine on a team like the Broncos, it can't be so different, right? Like people want to play on the best team. So if you've got the best line and, you know, there's probably going to be some people that are going to really want to line up behind that line because they're like, wow, that's an amazing line. I can do a lot with that.
00:20:28
Speaker
I'd love to be part of that. Is that something similar? Yeah, it um it is. I mean, football is bit different with players versus you know coaches and executives that we're hiring.
00:20:41
Speaker
and There's a natural draw to um you know culture here and the football team and what we're doing and you know what position in the community and all that. um But yeah, more broadly with trying to hire, I mean, i'll I'll use search firms, but I prefer to find people through my network. I'll always try that first. um Same way that I found Vince, because we were looking for someone, um you know we wanted try and climb the Cassine route on on Denali. And I had some technical ice climbing experience, but not a ton.
00:21:16
Speaker
And ah my partners, Neil and and Jim Morrison had had more experience. And so, ah but we wanted someone who would approach it in a certain way. And so we reached out through our network of people we knew and just started talking to people and it led to Vince. And we started with something, um i forget what the first thing we did, it might've been a bike ride, but start with something that's more low hanging fruit, see how it goes, see how the communication is, have dinner.
00:21:43
Speaker
Same thing in in looking for these you know leaders, whether it's a a coach or a CEO, you know i'll I'll always reach out through our network first and and describe. I'll have a sense for who would know the people we're looking for and have a good understanding of uh, know, our values at these different organizations and how we operate and who might be a fit. And I'd rather do that first rather than through a third party that really doesn't understand us as deeply and and usually can find people through that kind of networking. ah
00:22:16
Speaker
and I'll use search firms, you know, for, but for some things, but, um, but usually it's through people where there's mutual trust and, and prior experience. And on the opposite end of that, like ending a relationship that isn't fruitful or isn't going to go well, you know, that's another area where I think that in in the climbing and skiing world, people could use a little more confidence and a little more proactive thinking.
00:22:46
Speaker
And I have to say, as like just a small business owner, it's like firing people's one of the first few times I had to do it. It was incredibly hard. I think once you've done it a few times, you come to the realization and you alluded to this a moment ago, like, hey, this is better for everyone. like let's it's going to be really uncomfortable for a short amount of time. But ultimately, you're going to be happier. I'm going to be happier.
00:23:09
Speaker
Let's just bite the bullet and and get this and move through this process. But. Additionally, that that there's a there's a huge like kind of emotional hurdle to to overcome there.
00:23:22
Speaker
you have any, like, I don't know. Do you have any experiences that that would help people in that area? I think the i think it's it's what you referenced. The main thing is understanding if it's not working for you, likely it's not working for them either.
00:23:37
Speaker
And whether they whether they outright you know whether they really acknowledge that or not, they they will come to appreciate that. And People want to be happy and successful and productive in life. And so once it becomes more of a conversation around, this isn't something that's working for for anyone, let's figure out a graceful way to exit.
00:23:58
Speaker
And yes, that first conversation's hard, but I always find it it's best just to, you know once you know, just do it as quickly as you can and and be open and direct and and move forward.
00:24:11
Speaker
So I like to talk a lot on this part of the podcast about how I see adventure and just working on your, on your fitness, working on yourself, having, having even small sort of goals and, i being in process.
00:24:34
Speaker
on myself. And this is something when when you and I talked a about a month ago about doing this podcast and you described to me sort of how you came into, you know, essentially fitness and and and endurance sports.
Greg Penner's Transition to Athletics
00:24:50
Speaker
You want to tell us a little bit about how how you came into to climbing mountains?
00:24:55
Speaker
Yeah. Uh, so the quick version is I was, I was living and working in Japan. this was when I was in my early thirties had, um, wasn't doing any exercise, working all the time, put on a bunch of weight, came back, needed to do something.
00:25:12
Speaker
ah friend of mine was, was racing in triathlons. He said, Oh, you should try this. I'd, I'd been a swimmer, water polo player in, in high school. And, um, had done some mountain biking. So i I trained for a few months and lost, lost a bunch of weight and, and did a race. And that was in 2005 and ended up loving the, loving the training and the racing aspect of it. And, and, um, uh, raced for about 10 years. And, um, that was, uh, um,
00:25:41
Speaker
ah Again, had a lot of fun with it. was really, really satisfying. um Started to get a little bored of the training at the end, you know the long solo bike rides. And i found to get I got to the point where to get faster, I really needed to be training by myself. So my my training was really specific and that got a little that got a little old. And so there was an overlap period of time where having spent spending a lot of time in Aspen, I'd started climbing things around Aspen, like Maroon and Capital and all that with Neil and and doing some rock climbing. and And, um, so from that, we, um, sort of a back half of that 10 years of racing, we started, um, first did a, and I'd done some rock climbing as a kid, but, um, first did a climb with our kids up Kilimanjaro, then, you know, set the next objective and which was Amada Blom and did that in 2013. And that was the first really big peak that I had, had done. And, and then I was hooked. Um, and I was hooked by,
00:26:36
Speaker
the the climbs themselves but it was more i'm a huge believer and you've got it whatever you're you're focused on you have to love the process and so the process of getting ready for a climb the training the gear the trip planning the all you got to love all of that because if it's just about a summit people always say you know how that must have been the most amazing thing to be on the summit of everest and i say Yes, it was, but, you know, we were there for 20 minutes and, but it was, you know, months of training before that and getting ready and you gotta, that's the part you have to love. Um, and then obviously the experience of, of being in the mountains. And, um, so anyway, that's, that's how I got into it. And, and, um, and that, that, that's
00:27:21
Speaker
held true for me no matter what it is, whatever the activity is or the business. you know i always say to people, you can't just be around the, if it's in business and it's just about the money, you're not going to be happy. You got to enjoy you got enjoy what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. Same thing with all these adventures and after Everest, i was thinking about what I was going to do next. And I started yeah doing a bunch of research on swimming the English Channel.
00:27:44
Speaker
And I looked at what it was going to take. And it was basically a lot of solo swims in northern climates in you know in dark water by myself. And I looked at that and I said, i might enjoy swimming the channel, but I don't think I'm going to enjoy the process of getting ready. And and so i i didn't I didn't pursue it.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah, that's super interesting. and And what a step from Kilimanjaro to Aminablam. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, those are very different. We did some climbs in between those two, obviously. Yeah, sure, but I mean, Kilimanjaro is nice at all, but Aminablam, I mean, come on. It's just such one of most beautiful mountains in the world by any measure. Yeah.
00:28:30
Speaker
Still, yeah, still probably, but I think my favorite peak. It was fantastic. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you have these, these, these choices and you have resources to choose a lot of different adventures or experiences.
00:28:49
Speaker
How do you figure out what separates something that's a real adventure, something that involves a process that, as you say, really captures your interest and that genuinely stretches you from sort of, i don't know, high-end entertainment or or or sort of a tourism or or ah ah checking the box? I mean, I think this is one of the the popular culture misunderstandings of mountaineering in general and Everest specifically.
00:29:19
Speaker
how do you How do you figure out if your challenges are going to be meaningful enough to create the real transformation that is inherent in going through a deep process of learning, training, preparing, building up to, and of course, trying and doing?
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, no, it's a good question. And yeah. you know i didn't I didn't set out when I started climbing. it wasn't I never even never even crossed my mind to think about climbing Everest. So I didn't start out climbing saying, oh, my goal is to climb Everest because I've read books about it.
00:29:53
Speaker
It was one thing led to another. So it was, yeah, some some stuff around Aspen, which led to Kilimanjaro. Then it came back, was like, oh, let's you know think about doing some ice climbing. And then it led to one another thing. And then it was, oh, um you know what else could we do? it be you know There's this climb in Antarctica, Vincent, and I've well, that would be amazing to go to Antarctica and experience that.
00:30:14
Speaker
And then we said, well, let's figure out if there's a fast way to do it and combine it with Aconcagua. And then in thinking about Denali, it wasn't, oh, we want to go climb our, our whatever, fourth of the seven summits. It was, hey, there's this route on Denali, the Cassine, that would be a real challenge, ah you know, and let's, let's see if we could, you know, figure out a way to climb that, which by the way, we ended up for weather reasons, not being able to climb, but we did, we ended up going up the normal route. Um, and then with Everest, it was, um, uh, you know, I'd heard about the route through Tibet, you know, being safer, a little bit harder climb.
00:30:53
Speaker
Um, uh, and, but it hadn't been climbed for a while. And so i was kind of watching that as it started to come on our radar and that started to get more interesting. And then it was, okay, well, with my work schedule, I can't take 10 weeks off or eight weeks off.
00:31:07
Speaker
yeah, is there a way to do this in three weeks? And that's when we got connected with Adrian Ballinger and using hypoxic tents in the US. s And then, then it got, then we were looking at it and, and, um, Adrian was walking me through kind of the protocol of how the trip would work and up and down on the mountain. And I said, well, we have the resources. So if we're going to do that, why don't we go climb, let's make this more interesting, go climb another peak while we're there, use that as our, a you know, way to get acclimated. So,
00:31:34
Speaker
we went and climbed Chouou first and then moved over to the other side. And, and, you know, so I, you know, any climb I'm always looking for, is there an interesting approach to this that, so it's, it's, there's the climb, but then there's, how are we thinking about it and doing it a way, um, you know, that, that makes it a, you know, an interesting adventure.
00:31:54
Speaker
Um, And, you know, I want to go climb Elvbrus at some point. And i think that one would be fun to take our skis and, you know, hopefully ski down it and make that a little, little bit different.
00:32:04
Speaker
Obviously that one's, that one's problematic right now, given the, given the. political situation, but but at some point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully in our lifetimes, that opens up again.
00:32:16
Speaker
You know, you're you're you're making these trips sort of more complex, but also I hear, and I can only imagine you must just have an incredibly packed work schedule. I mean, and And there are other people like you that that do this. I mean, you're and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the CEO of the Denver Broncos.
00:32:34
Speaker
You own your your investment company. You're on a bunch of boards. You're involved in philanthropic work. you know, your training, like, how do you, how do you do it, man? Like, how do you do it all? Like, how you know, those the rest of us are like, you know, trying to just like hold down a job and raise our kids and feel like our, our, our heads are going to explode half the time. Like, how do you do it?
00:32:57
Speaker
I'd say it's a combination of things. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very efficient with my time. um, I don't like to sit around. um And so I'm just a happier person when I'm very active and my schedule is is full.
00:33:13
Speaker
um I've also, ah these things, like didn't decide to do all of these things at one time. had the investment firm, so have the investment firm really good, really, you know, real, two really good partners that I work with and trust.
00:33:27
Speaker
So as I was doing, spending more time on other things, like when I moved into the chairman role of Walmart, that was 10 years after started the investment firm. So I could put more on their plate as I took on more at Walmart.
00:33:39
Speaker
And then, you know, we bought, purchased the Broncos seven years later in 2022, take on the CEO role there. Well, now I've been in the Walmart role for a number of years. And so I can,
00:33:51
Speaker
spend a little bit less time there, allocate more of that, obviously to the, to the Broncos, cause that is a more of a day to day, um challenge. Um, I couldn't, you know, and had to change my outside activities. may be hard to do everything I'm doing right now and do the Ironman training at the, at the level, you know, you know, I can't right now, I can't train 20 to 25 hours a week. I don't have enough, I don't have enough time for that. So it's,
00:34:16
Speaker
it's getting It's always knowing like what's the right balance and getting that right and to have the personal time with my wife and four children and now our first grandchild. So it's um ah you know I know when things are out of out of whack and and then you gotta make some some changes, but it's also, um you know these things come in increments and knowing where I can add and peel back and and still be effective.
00:34:41
Speaker
One thing I've been wanting to ask you is you know, you're part of, I mean, don't carry this by yourself, but you're you're part of a group of people that is carrying the the Walton legacy. And that's honestly like ah also a broader American legacy. i mean, the Broncos is also an organization that has this huge history and and community around it before you came into it But from my point of view, these are legacies that have been built up by others. And you're now responsible for for stewarding and you're bringing your, of course, vision and your experience and your opinions and your humanity these endeavors.
00:35:25
Speaker
And how how are you able to find your own authentic relationship with something as big as Walmart or as important to so many people as the Denver Broncos are to people in Colorado?
00:35:41
Speaker
And and what what is theirs and what is yours and where is the difference? Like, how do you how do you navigate that? Yeah, mean I think it's a couple things. you you know When you have, again, whether it's a team like the Broncos or company like Walmart, you have incredible history and values and um ah culture that's been developed over time. And so I think it's part of it is you know really wanting to have a deep understanding of that, respect for it.
00:36:13
Speaker
um you understanding what you want to leverage go forward, but then it's a a very you know being very open to change. So the the the the hard part is, okay, what do we want to keep and what are we going to be open to changing? And that, again, i think comes through reps and wisdom over time and different experiences. um Because you can't just throw out everything and start over because then you're losing the the benefit of that that history. But you also can't be stuck with, well, this is you know one of the things that drives me crazy is when people say, you know this is how we've always done it.
00:36:48
Speaker
And it's like, well, that's ah that is the worst reason to keep doing it. like but You might want to keep doing it, but not because of that. Right. So, i you know, so very similar in that regard, which is you really want to, the first step is understanding. So anytime, you know, come into something like with, a you know, with Walmart is a little different because, you know, my wife and I got married in 1995. My first job with the company was actually before that.
00:37:15
Speaker
Um,
Understanding Walmart's Culture
00:37:16
Speaker
but I didn't, I didn't, uh, know, i worked for the company for about five years and then went on the board in 2008 and took the chairman role in 2015. So I had had a good 20 years of seeing things with the company to appreciate the history and what we wanted to keep. And also having a really good, some ideas on what we wanted to change. The Broncos is a little bit different because it was sort of, you know, it came in with I mean, what we'd seen from the outside, but with really no deep understanding of of culture and background and all that. So it much more come in learn, observe.
00:37:51
Speaker
you know and And once I felt like you know at some point you start to have the confidence of, okay, I've got this. Now I understand a decision comes up. This is something we want to change. This is something we want to keep and and you know starts to become more natural and and authentic.
00:38:07
Speaker
In your experience, is a sports team like the Broncos more dynamic and have like this is the possibility to turn over that history more at your fingertips than at something like.
00:38:22
Speaker
Walmart, because I imagine, i mean, I guess i I've talked about this before, but, you know, Uli Stecke, who was a late, great Swiss alpinist, he and I used to have this discussion.
00:38:33
Speaker
he and I were about the same age, and his brother was a professional hockey player in Switzerland, and he we used to sort of have this conversation. He'd be like, yep, my brother made the team again this year, you know, and it was sort of our inside joke. It's like, did we make the team?
00:38:47
Speaker
and And we sort of had, well, we course the joke was that we didn't have to try out every year and then one year his brother didn't make the team right and he was like i think he was 30 or something at the time and he but was done his professional sports career was over and right i i from the outside and things like football where there's so much about like you're only as good as your last you know game Is that dynamism there for one? And if so, is it healthy?
00:39:22
Speaker
ah Yes, but there are still, like, ah history, you know, might be talking about and appreciating our alumni and engaging them in, you know, like today at at training camp practice, we had, i think we had 40 of our alumni here just to experience camp and be around and,
00:39:44
Speaker
And so, you know, and then it's longtime fans and how we interact with them. And, and i mean, they're, you know, it's talking about stories from the past. And so there, there are, even though, you know, the team chain, you know, turnover turns over, you know, roughly a third every year of the players. And, you know, there's a fair amount of turnover at the coaching level also, but, but there still are ties to the past and things you can draw on and history and, and all that. And, um,
00:40:13
Speaker
you know The values, were're we're my wife and I in our ownership group, you know we're establishing new values, um drawing on some things from the past, but um but with our our take on it and what's important to us and and being willing to change that and how we operate. Yeah.
00:40:31
Speaker
Walmart's a little bit different because you you know the fundamental core business model isn't going to change and the core values are always going to be the same. um But we hadn't been willing to change enough. And in kind of the 2015, 16 timeframe where our CEO came into the role and I went into the role, ah we we made a determination. We just had to had to change some fundamental aspects of what we were doing. And and And so recognizing that and and being willing to take that risk was, uh, is, is always, I think really important.
00:41:05
Speaker
Can you say
Walmart's Strategic Shifts
00:41:06
Speaker
what those, what that was, what the direction change was that you're alluding to? At Walmart, it was it was a couple things. One, on the um ah e-commerce, digital, we'd just never been we' sort of dabbled, but we hadn't been totally committed.
00:41:22
Speaker
So we decided to make an acquisition of a company called Jet.com, got a very innovative team. provided them with the right resources. So that was one. ah Two was we had gotten behind on our wage scale. And so we made a decision to invest in bringing our wages up, which was a significant cost and hit to our profit, but we felt was really important.
00:41:45
Speaker
And third was um we'd gotten behind on ah remodeling our stores. it's It's not the sexiest thing, but if if you you know you should touch a store usually every seven years. And if you you can put it off to eight, sometimes i'm nine.
00:42:00
Speaker
But if you keep doing that, it just gets a little old and and it gets it's hard to catch up. And so we had to bite the bullet and make big investments in remodeling our stores, which was over about a five-year period to catch up. um So was a number of things that initially took our profits down, um but we felt like were werere necessary to get us back on a and a higher growth trajectory and and better results long term.
00:42:22
Speaker
Now, like it's 2025, that was roughly 10 years ago. Looking back at those, were you were you right? Were you wrong? Were there misses, hits? We were right about all three at the highest level. There were still misses with each. um especially on the digital side, like you're going to, you know, anytime you're trying to start a new business like that, you're going to have fits and starts where you invest in certain things. And then you course correct and move a little bit, but the core premise was right, which was, we were not nearly aggressive enough and we needed to get the right talent in. We needed to give them resources and we had to be, we had to be much more aggressive. And so the, the core premise on all three were, were
00:43:01
Speaker
turned out to be correct. And right now the business you know has been doing really well for ah several years now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, just from what I follow, I think that I knew that those were the answers. So it was, and and I mean, this is, you know, you're a big company. Everybody talks about what what Walmart is doing on the, you know, higher level and you often watch. So it's it's super interesting to to get a little real life insight into that and not just read it in in the journal or whatever.
00:43:32
Speaker
One of the things that I want to shift to is talking about comfort zones and stretching our comfort zones. You know, I've often heard it say that comfort zones you know, staying in your comfort zones result in consistency with what you already have. And comfort zones exist for reason. They're efficient, they're predictable, and, you know, you use this word a few times, they're often profitable. And, you know, Walmart's scale depends on consistency, and millions of people rely on that stability every day. And, know,
00:44:03
Speaker
My question is, how do you personally balance the need for sort of this adventure-driven thinking, this innovation-type thinking, with the responsibility to maintain reliable systems that keep, you know, two-plus million people employed?
00:44:20
Speaker
And also, you know, just culturally, i want to understand, you know, we I'm seeing things like, you know, Jeff Bezos going to space and elon Musk aiming for Mars or you know, climbers like yourself climbing Everest. And these experiences are out of reach for most people. I mean, for sure, going to space and and going to Mars is out of out of reach.
00:44:42
Speaker
So how should we as a culture and as a society view these achievements? How should we think about them? Should we be inspired by them?
00:44:53
Speaker
did they distort somehow our sense of what's important or what matters? are they just simply kind of expressions of a fundamental human truth that were we're never quite satisfied, that we always are curious to do something more, do something bigger, go a little further?
00:45:12
Speaker
that just inherent to the human condition? do we process this? How do we look at it? Yeah. how do we look out yeah Well, I mean, I can't speak to Bezos and Musk and what's what's worked for them. I mean, for for me, you know kind of started out talking about this. For me, it's always been having something where I'm pushing my comfort zone and figuring out the right people to do that with. So it's safe and fun and and um yeah and finding where the where the where the limits are.
00:45:46
Speaker
um And i mean, I think anybody, no matter what your resources are, can find ah can find ways to do that. And um I mean, could just be with a pair of running shoes and seeing, oh, I've never run a marathon. So I want to, you know, I could buy $150 pair of running shoes and see if I can challenge myself to run a marathon and what would that take? And you can go on a you know, free AI and say, come up with a training plan for me and, and go out the door and give it a try. so
00:46:17
Speaker
i i think um I think to me, that's the spice of life. That's what keeps things interesting. That's what motivates me, keeps me engaged. um I think that translates a lot of that those things, whether for me, whether it's been, again, and the mountains or racing, you know those translate into business, which is – um ah you know really pushing the comfort zone, knowing there are some things you have to get.
00:46:42
Speaker
you know If you're climbing and you're up at high altitude, there's some things you got to get right that you can't you know you can't, there's no cutting corners. Same things in a store, like the cash registers have to work. Our PO point of sale systems like have to work. You have to be able to go in and check people out. um But that doesn't mean you can't experiment with X, Y, and Z and try and do things. You know you might have an area over here that's selfless, self-checkout and all digital and and you don't scan anything. and But you might still want to have your registers where you could pay cash and and as a backup. And so-
00:47:16
Speaker
finding ways to stretch your comfort zone are safe and um allow you to kind of recognize what's possible to me is is, again, whether it's in business or hobbies or what have you, is what what makes things interesting and and um and allows you to push.
00:47:36
Speaker
Yeah. And I appreciate that you call this example out with the marathon. you know i mean, it's one of the things that I love about mountain sports, for example, is, you know, it's it It is truly accessible to to everyone to go to a trail and go for trail run or, you know, and i and, you know, climbing gets a little more expensive, skiing even more so perhaps. But I think that there's a lot of accessibility in in the great outdoors.
00:48:04
Speaker
When i I retired from professional climbing in 2020 and it was, you know, kind of at the end of COVID, it was shortly after the Me Too and the Black Lives Matters movements.
00:48:16
Speaker
And all of these were sort of wake up calls for me personally that had helped me see how much privilege I had benefited from, privilege that I had not really been ah frankly aware of and I certainly had not acknowledged.
00:48:29
Speaker
And maybe naively, this is another discussion. i had made a choice to step aside, hoping it would create space for for others who hadn't had all the advantages that I had had to step into that, that those roles and and get some of that, you know, financial reward.
00:48:47
Speaker
If i think about, um you know the you know, whether it's climbing a mountain or running a trail race, you know,
00:48:59
Speaker
how do I think about privilege and how do I think about, how do we move more? Like, I think we all, mean, this is presumptuous of me, but I think we all sort of idealize the idea of a meritocracy where, where people can, can rise up according to their, their, you know, pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard and, and, and, and create something amazing and and have grit and,
00:49:28
Speaker
intelligence and put all that in into a a hopper and and mix it up and come out with a good life. And to me, in sense, that's like the greatest test of, I don't know, a human is like, can you create a great life for yourself with all of the things at your disposal, the near infinite number of tools we have today? How do think about today how do we how do we think about Privilege. I mean, you know, you're sitting atop, you know, such ah such a big corporation with Walmart and you're you're going customers. i mean, you're part of the fabric of the United States of America in so many ways.
00:50:07
Speaker
And you see it all. You see the whole spectrum of of humanity. And how do you think about ah privilege? How do you think about serving those people?
00:50:19
Speaker
how does that factor into and and how do we tie that back to being out in the mountains? Yeah, it um ah it is, um you know, but but both the entities that, you know, that I'm involved with, as well as um my wife's, you know, the broad family. Like it's been a one, you recognize that we're in a place of great privilege. And two, you know, that it's really important to give back.
00:50:48
Speaker
Um, and then for me, the third step is, okay, how can we be really effective at giving back? Because that's hard. Like people, i think, think it's the, you know, it's sort of this easy thing, but it's really hard to, you know, do things in a, in a way that's very constructive and impactful. And, and, um, and I've seen it done very different ways between, you know, at at Walmart, a lot of our giving back is through actually through our communities and through our stores and,
00:51:17
Speaker
channeling we basically you know that plus significant aid efforts and things we do on that front where we can leverage our supply chain. So it's a lot of it's figuring out what are you really good at and your skillset and giving back through through that. Same thing with with the Broncos. like what what do We have we have you know these players that have immense reach and and impact and um you know Last year, we we started a program around giving every high school football player in Colorado ah a state-of-the-art helmet that would reduce concussions. And so looking for unique opportunities that that we have with each of you know whatever these entities are to give back,
00:51:59
Speaker
And so I'd say it's the same thing then in the mountains, like where, you know, where it could be that, you know, your thing is not money. It's, I can, you know, I've got to experience rock climbing and I'm gonna take local kids, you know, onto a rock and and get them outdoors or,
00:52:14
Speaker
In our case, we've done a lot of trail building, um for for especially for mountain biking and in both northwest Arkansas and around the Aspen area, and and um just making the outdoors more accessible to to more people. But I think whatever it is, figuring out where you have some unique ability to do something um rather than, you know, and again, the money is important, but usually it's finding a unique match to to what the needs are.
00:52:41
Speaker
Yeah. And it's also interesting. Something I hadn't thought of what you said is just the reach of your players, for example. I mean, just the just the megaphones. And of course, we each have our own little social media megaphone now. And some of those in the case of your players must be and insanely large, very significant, very significant and very powerful. powerful Right. and And power can be used in power.
00:53:03
Speaker
good ways and in less positive ways. and And that's something I hadn't appreciated about like, you know, something like the Broncos that you guys have to think about. That's interesting.
00:53:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Something I want to kind of get your thoughts on and get your viewpoint on is the is the Sherpas on Everest and in the Himalayan general. you
Ethical Considerations for Sherpas on Everest
00:53:24
Speaker
As we know, Sherpas account for about 40% of the deaths on Everest, and they typically earn around $5,000 season. ah Current, you know sort of average everest tripp costs about sixty thousand dollars you've built a career on being ah really good operations person and part of an organization that is extremely good at building super lean, efficient, effective supply chains and operations that bring fair value across and insanely. I can't imagine how complex some of these supply chains must be.
00:54:02
Speaker
So I want our audience just to think about like, you know, the beef industry would collapse if the ranchers weren't fairly compensated for the hamburgers that were sold in right Walmart coolers, right? Like that that, it all has to balance out, all has to work.
00:54:18
Speaker
And the Everest industry depends on Sherpas and they accept extraordinary risk for fairly modest pay. When you're up there in Everest or Ahmed de Blom and you're watching these guys take on some of the mountains, most dangerous jobs.
00:54:34
Speaker
What opportunities did you see in that way that world is structuring its business? Were there insights that you were like, huh, they could do it this way or they could do it that way?
00:54:48
Speaker
and And what might some of those insights mean for the future of of climbing mountains like Everest? Because yeah as we've seen, this isn't going away. It's not getting smaller. No, and and yeah, and the answer certainly isn't just, oh, don't use Sherpas because that's their you know that's their lifeblood and that's what they love to do. and and they i mean um So from what I've seen, a lot of it is who you're choosing to climb with and what what their approach is. So for for our our Himalayan climbs, we've done um most of those, if not all, with Adrian Ballinger at Alpenglow.
00:55:25
Speaker
And, you know, he has a group of Sherpa that he's worked with for a long time. You know, the compensation is is really good. The decision makingking is um ah the decision making is consultative rather than directive. So it's it's we're going to make a decision together.
00:55:47
Speaker
Um, most of our climbs, there weren't situations where like when we, when we climbed on DeBlom and had been a, we were late in the season cause I'd had an injury that I, I bike crash that I was, had, we had pushed back the climb for about three weeks and ended up being fortuitous because, uh, there was a big monsoon and nobody had been able to summit. We were there towards the end of the, of the summit window and,
00:56:08
Speaker
There's a ridge called the mushroom ridge and it's, you know, when it's snowed over, it's, it's a little sketchy. It's not very long, but it's sketchy cause it kind of drops off both ways. And, and we made a decision with the Sherpa that we were all, we were comfortable doing it. We were going to cross it together.
00:56:23
Speaker
um And so how you how you communicate with the with the Sherpa and and what you're asking of them, I think is really important. um And then again, there's there's opportunities. um I think it's important to give back and there's there's you know efforts you can support with you know local efforts and in um climbing schools and other things that help the Sherpa as ah as a whole. that I put that in the philanthropic part, not...
00:56:50
Speaker
directly into how they get compensated and manage risk. But a lot of it to me comes back to choosing to work with groups that that just have an approach with the Sherpa. That's got to be one of if I was you know doing this for the first time, I'd say to folks, like make sure you ask the question on how how do the sherpa you know how do you work with the Sherpa? what do you What's your view of their role? How do they get compensated?
00:57:13
Speaker
And just asking those questions and making sure you're you're satisfied with the answers is is a first step. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense because, you know, you're, you're putting your, you know, that's, and that's what I was after. Like, you know, the Greg Penner business mind looks at this little simplified world of, you know, climbing, you know, Everest and going to bloom. And, and, and, and you're saying that, you know, guys like Adrian and and we both know Adrian, he he's, like he's a really great people person, I think you can say. And so I could imagine him having like
00:57:47
Speaker
have had taken the time and put in the energy to develop the relationships because he deeply cares about people. Like that's just in his yeah nature. And so that would create a situation with that kind of alignment.
00:58:01
Speaker
Is there ah decision where it could be on a mountain or in a boardroom where you feel that you got it wrong that you could tell us about? Ooh,
00:58:14
Speaker
um, yeah.
00:58:19
Speaker
I wouldn't say there's anything in the mountains yet where I felt like got it wrong. um at least in the big mountains, you know the it's interesting, I'm sure you've experienced this. Sometimes the worst decisions you make are the times where you feel like you're in a lower lower risk environment, given all the things that you've done. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh,
00:58:43
Speaker
We're at the top of the bowl and it's minus 10 and the wind's howling and i didn't bring enough layers up and i can't feel my fingers. you know Whereas when you're on Everest or Ama or something, you're you're you're so focused on the risks. like you you know You'd never make a bad decision up there. So no, can't say in the mountains. um you know In business, a lot of it's...
00:59:03
Speaker
ah
00:59:07
Speaker
it It often comes down to ah a bad decision on a hire and then not addressing it quickly enough. And um those are the most those are the most painful because you know if it's a business decision on an acquisition or a, hey, we decided to try this and that didn't work, like you course correct and you you move on. But people decisions, are they multiply because if you make a bad, especially if you're hiring a you know senior leader, you make a bad decision, then they hire their Their hires aren't as good. And now you've got this culture problem. Then you have to address it. That causes you know disruption.
00:59:45
Speaker
like those are the those that's what in In any of these environments, i always think of those as by far the most important decision I'm making ah or who who are the yeah whether it's the head coach or the CEO. or you know Those are the most important decisions I'll i'll ever make.
01:00:01
Speaker
You know, and I'd say in the mountains too, right? Like who we're in the mountains with is, you know, say similar thing. Like, you know, you, you're so-and-so invites their friend. Hey, can my friend come on this tour? And, you know, so it can spiral in the same ways. And I've got and embarrassing number of stories, Greg, where I'm just have been out in the backyard mountains and just kind had complete epics because I was just like, ah,
01:00:28
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Don't you know who I am? Like I've done, I've done some stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So all a sudden you can't feel your fingers and yeah, you're an hour from home and your phone doesn't work. And yeah, it's dark. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a hubris is a bitch. Yeah.
01:00:46
Speaker
yeah After all the you know the the triathlons, the the mountains you've climbed and are still climbing and you know all the things you know from... Congratulations
Greg Penner on Ambition and Curiosity
01:00:57
Speaker
on your grandchild, by the way. First grandchild. That's exciting.
01:01:02
Speaker
What does ambition mean to you at this point? Is it ambition? mean, I wouldn't say I do things because of ambition. I think I do things because of Oh, like intellectual curiosity, a challenge, a new experience.
01:01:24
Speaker
And if that's ambition, then then it is, but I don't do it because I'm ambitious or, you know, and I don't, those, I think ambition might go away at some point. You feel satisfied, but those other things I talked about, like ah those are things that I'll have till, you know, the day I i keel over, like,
01:01:42
Speaker
those things aren't going away. So I'm always going to be trying new things and pushing and testing the limits and, and it'll just be in, you know, it'll be in different things or, um, or, or can be the same.
01:01:54
Speaker
So one of the things that I think business and mountain sports have in common and, and I'm going to dunk on competitive sports a little bit, but I think that Competitive sports, particularly mainstream competitive sports, I think miss the ball here or miss the – that's the and no analogy or pun intended.
01:02:16
Speaker
But is this – these mountain sports and in business, they're they're infinite games. There's – like you alluded to, like you know, you may make a quote-unquote mistake in business, but you're always course correcting. You're always trying something new. Something's always working. Something's always not working anymore.
01:02:37
Speaker
And it's just like it's ah it's a never-ending web of of of things that you're trying to trying to weave together. And I think that mountain sports is is quite similar. You're out there. You you know you have many objectives. you You want to be healthy. You want to be fit. You want to see the sunrise. You want to just get the feeling that you feel when you're standing on top of the peak at sunrise. Yeah.
01:03:00
Speaker
any number of of things of these things could be true on any given day and it's not the sort of zero-sum game like did we win or lose uh did we get the you know were we were we you know 11 0 did we win the super bowl whatever and then also one of the problems for me with that is that it dictates that everyone else loses right like you have however many games or teams and in the NFL there are now, and there's one of them is going to win the Superbowl and the rest are quote unquote losers.
01:03:31
Speaker
And I don't really see life like that. Like I really don't see that that's a ah valuable analogy for the rest of my experience of life. It's, it's not just like, Oh, I won today and I lost yesterday.
01:03:46
Speaker
It's that every day is a different puzzle and I'm always learning and always probing and always, always experiencing something different. Yeah, no, i i think i think that's I think that's well said. And um i think certain venues or or or um activities lend themselves more to that. I mean, certainly the mountains and climbing, not a zero-sum game, I guess, yeah other than maybe first ascents. But um ah football, a little harder because it is hard because your season, you know, for 31 teams, your season ends with with a loss. um And so, you know, but
01:04:23
Speaker
But there are ways you know of of appreciating the journey, believing you you know you gave it your best, building culture, working towards the future that keep it you know satisfying and and stimulating.
01:04:35
Speaker
Well, I always finish with one last question to every guest, and that is how does Greg Penner want to be remembered?
01:04:45
Speaker
Ooh,
Greg Penner's Legacy and Personal Reflections
01:04:48
Speaker
good question. I would say ah first, great husband and father. um ah Second, you know ah ah love for life and different experiences. um and ah and third, friend.
01:05:07
Speaker
you know deep lasting friendships and a great and a great friend Those are all great things to aspire to. Thank you very much for your time today, Greg. It's really been a fascinating window into into your worlds, I have to say the plural, because there is more than one.
01:05:25
Speaker
And i hope we get to each other out on the skin track again here this winter sometime soon. That'd be fun. Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it Thanks, Greg.
01:05:47
Speaker
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